IMPOSSIBLE TURNS & What I Learned | Emergency Procedures
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ส.ค. 2023
- I'm a firm believer that all pilots should have experience trying impossible turns. I've tried them many a time in my career, mostly out of curiosity to see if they are actually impossible, and for the most part I've been able to make it back to the runway. Today was not so straight forward. It is my belief that we call them "impossible turns" because it's virtually impossible to determine whether you will make it back from 1,000 feet and below after takeoff. For this reason, testing it and trying your hand at executing them is very beneficial for pilots.
Enjoy the flight!
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LewDix Aviation videos are edited to be as entertaining as possible. This may remove context. Many procedures, situations, explanations and flight phases have been edited out. Do not use for instructional purposes. This video is for entertainment purposes only.
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“Now shut up and close your window” - LewDix. 😂😅😅😅
Words to live by!
@@LewDixAviation This was my CFI teaching 4 kinds of EFATO and Emergency Low Maneuvers. First ever to do that. 1995. 4 Real landings on 4k feet long runway with 16knots winds. No BS like others still do. I took that training in 1995. We dont BS. We are Puerto Ricans. We like to do hard things. Glad some Americans like you like to do hard maneuvers too. th-cam.com/video/94li1apG-aI/w-d-xo.html
Congratulations on you captain upgrade! Love your aviation content.
Thank you!
Congrats on the promotion. Well deserved.
At Redhill we are taught no turning back 30 degrees ahead only.
I would have ditched it in those fields every time. They looked fine to me. No stressing about whether you will make it back. Plane might be damaged beyond repair but at least you’ll almost certainly walk away
Seems like the safer option most times.. thanks mate!
I must admit that every time I fly from an airport, I always have picked fields in case of an engine failure on take off. I do fly a Turbo Arrow 3, not a Cessna. Obviously part of take off brief! Also if I fly to a new airfield, I look at satellite photos to see what is optimal. If engine goes, it's the insurance companies airplane now, I just want to live to tell them!
An Arrow drops like a brick so I think you are making the right decision to check what's available ahead instead of looking back.
From other videos I've seen on the impossible turn, it seems like the heavier the aircraft, the more impossible the turn. Obviously YMMV, every aircraft has different characteristics.
@@LewDixAviationnever too high in an arrow.
For no power turnback you need to climb at over 700 fpm and have some wind too to push you back. If you have that, the mark the Turnback alti on altimeter to 700 agl. The 777 No Power Turnback Rule. If will climb 700 fpm plus, with 7 knots wind or more, Mark altimeter to 700 or more to turnback to opposite runway. Always mark altimeter before take off.
Lewdix is a combination of entirely logical, yet super chill and calm. The pilot-type in a nutshell.
Congrats CAPTAIN!! I just soloed last week for the first time, your videos have been very educational and inspirational. I will definitely be practicing this impossible turn to know my own limits!
Don’t want to be the internet expert, but I am a pilot.... def try this with an instructor, and at height! Not something to experiment with till you’re fairly experienced, as it’s easy to get caught out, and without enough height to fix it!
@@DanSmithBK That’s fair, my instructor had me try it at altitude and I clearly need to practice more haha
That’s an amazing accomplishment! Congratulations!! I’m glad my videos have helped you!
Thanks - appreciate what you do
After checking the sectional chart for airports near Apopka, I finally figured out you are saying "Orlando North" in your radio calls. Uninterpretable otherwise. You might consider slowing your speech down a bit for student pilots like me. I enjoy your videos, I learn something each time.
"The engine's not really gonna fail" I do feel like this needs caveating with "We hope"
Oh dang, congrats Captain!
Thank you so much for this video! Although obvious when thinking of it, it would never have crossed my mind to factor in head winds when deciding to turn back or not.
Just wat I needed a LewDix Upload 🎉
Today is a good day!
It's good to see that you have recovered after your captains ratings. You seem to have your mojo back after a decent kip or two. I would love to see more videos as your career as a captain developes.
Hey!!! I'm a new subscriber and I've been learning so much thank you Lewis!!!
That's great! I'm glad you enjoy my stuff!
Great stuff to know. A turn back is not a consideration without a decent headwind…..how much we don’t really know. And with your experience you are nailing best glide and maintaining it better than a less proficient pilot like myself so it’s definitely taught me some valuable limitations. Go ahead and expect to land off airport, set up properly and live to tell about it.
It also depends on the glide ratio of what you're flying. The C172 you are flying is an absolute Led Zeppelin @ a published 8:1 and I think it's probably less than that.
I'd like to see you try an idea a CFI in my club had once. Try putting in 10deg flaps. The theory is you'll sink slower and give the wind longer to push you back to the runway. This obviously isn't advisable when trying to glide /into/ wind, but in this case you're downwind.
Thanks Lewis, I'm gonna pratice these in the sim and I envy you for practising it in real life. Keep up this great content. Have a good one!! Michiel from The Netherlands
Thanks man!!
Turn steeper, min 50° to decrease turn radius so you shorten your flight path and stay closer. You will lose more altitude initially but you will also gain speed which you can milk for longer gliding distance. You won't stall if you don't pull, even in a steep bank angle.
This^
Thank you again for the great content!
You're welcome amigo!
I only went to Oshkosh for two reasons, to present and see Lewis Dixon. I left Thursday morning. Sorry I missed you. I practice the Impossible Turn at altitude and then if the student is proficient, we go to a non-towered airport with a 10 knot headwind. This time of year the rate limiting step is DENSITY ALTITUDE. I guesstimated the Orlando temperature at 96 degrees Fahrenheit and I got about a 2,500 feet density altitude. So now I am flying half up from Denver altitude at 5,280 feet. This is my NO Frickin Way Density Altitude for the Impossible turn. Unless you can add JATO's the funny looking airplane with high wings is eating grass. Take away from me is headwinds and density altitude are the two biggest factors of making it back or not. That is not including the turn back which takes away a percentage of my lift. Beautiful illustration of density altitude performance.
Oh, my god! I just heard you made Captain!! Congratulations, Lewis! I’m so happy for you, you deserve it! 👏👏🙌
Thank you Rach! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🫡
It all depends on your climb angle vs your best glide angle. In gliders with 28/1 and 45/1 L/D ratios, we practice 180 degree turns back to a safe landing all the time from 200 ft. Our L-19 tow plane can climb at 500 ft. per minute with a glider in tow. So...our climb is steeper than our glide. When I made my conversion from power flying to gliding, I was surprised that I was taught to do a 180 degree turn if the tow rope broke. All during my power flying, I was told never to do this. I also think that if I was doing a maximum climb in the L-19 with no glider in tow, I could safely do a 180 back to the field. It just all depends...
LewDix upgrades to the left seat, just to fly the SkyBoat from the right…
Thanks for the information here. Hope I never need it, but this info can potentially save a viewers life. So thank you again
Your information made my mind continue to ponder this info you provided about headwind and distance from runway
I would like to see you do the same test, little to no wind, but vx all the way to 1000agl. If engine cooling is an issue, possibly do some kind of hybrid at 69 knots.
When departing runways with little to no forgiveness at departure end. Schools, houses, forest, this info will definitely be in my mind.
Any thoughts?
Lewis, I love the fact that you re-visited the impossible turn. There are many conditions that make the engine out/return to runway "possible", but you've shown that winds are a determining factor, even up to near pattern altitude. I will say, however: most departures allow for a turn from runway heading at less than 900'. Do you think that a turn to xwind (or even a 45 degree turn) would have helped you get back to 27 at any point of the exercise?
I have done the impossible turn on a few of my lessons in the past (in a C-150) with success. Every time I had favoring winds. I even have a video of one lesson on my channel. ;)
Thanks for the great content! Always good to see the fiance flying with you, Captain.
Thanks man! I very much enjoy testing things like this because even when I can’t make it back, I learn. That’s what it’s about. You do raise a good point. Engine failure of crosswind when a good chunk of the turn is already done may yield different results. I can’t say for sure without trying it but depending on how close you are to the runway, you may be doing some heavy manoeuvring to get yourself lined up with the runway. In the past I’ve simulated an engine failure on crosswind and landed on a crossing runway but never tried back to the opposite one. I’d like to test in the interest of safety and learning!
@@LewDixAviation If you do decide to test it, please share the results. I'm very interested to see your outcome.
Thanks for your response.
BeardedAv8r
Great stuff! Another thing you can try in the Citabria when you come fly it with us at Apopka.
🙌🏻 I assume it was you I was speaking to?
@@LewDixAviation yep that was me!
Congratulations again on Captain Lew! I know we only see a small glimpse into the effort put into that achievement! On the Impossible turn, looks like standard rate turn vs a steep bank and what do you think about density altitude on a warm day effects? Probably still impossible at that location from the site picture we see but curious your thoughts. congrats again!
Thank you! Some people have mentioned I should have steepened the bank which I think I could have, but the steeper the bank the more altitude I’d lose and even though I’d be turned around quicker, I’m not sure it would have helped on this day. It’s something I can test though.
I saw you at OSHKOSH! It was very fun 🤩
🙌🏻🙌🏻
What degree turn do you use on the engine turn back to the runway
Congratulations on your captain upgrade dude! Lini, don't be too hard on the impossible turns score cards, haa.
Thanks!!
A Captain in his natural habitat…with his boat 😂 Congratulations on the upgrade!!!
😂 thanks 🙌🏻
my flight school has us hold vx until that "safe turn around point" 500 agl to remain closer to the runway incase of and engine failure it'd be interesting to see how much that helps or doesn't for these impossible turns.
I’d like to see you redo this as a VX climb to 700’ or etc. VX will give you more alt without the distance. No VY at all. Stay in VX.
In the case where you don’t have options to land after takeoff…middle of city, or forest, Then I think stay in VX to get altitude without giving up the distance from the runway incase you need to return.
I know I know I’ll going to get slammed for this comment. Vy is preferable cause you get to the altitude quicker, I get it, but in a case where there are no options after takeoff VX might be the better choice to keep you closer to the airport.
I understand what you’re saying though. If you determine there are no options other than turning back you’d want to gain as much altitude in the shortest distance so you’d be closer to the runway if you had to turn back. I get the logic.
@@LewDixAviation maybe the impossible turn is always possible if you stay in VX? I might have to try this myself. You got me thinking now.
Depends. I had an engine failure on takeoff at 600-700 ft on a 2800 ft runway, but it was in the winter with temperatures of 28 F and calm winds. I didn't do the "impossible turn", I just circled back and landed on the runway in the direction I took off of - so basically a really tight traffic pattern (turned base just after midfield).
A strong headwind on take off is going to become a strong tailwind if trying to land on the reciprocal. This will increase the landing distance considerably. Check the POH for your aircraft. Even if you do make it back, chances are you'll be running off the end of the runway unless it's a really long one. Also, your groundspeed would be much higher than normal, which close to the ground is disconcerting, unless very experienced, and could lead to stalling in as you instinctively try to slow.
Impossible Turn depends on so many factors. Like you said, do you have a nice headwind on take off? In a SE trainer on a 10,000' runway, you could probably make a 500' turn back with a headwind on takeoff. If the density altitude is high, you may not be able to make an 1000' turn back on a 10k runway even with a headwind. Conversely, low Density altitude, 6000' runway, great headwinds, and decent climb performance in your aircraft, and a 600' turn back may be possible. Also, how proficient are you as a pilot - if you haven't flown in a few months, attempting an impossible turn could end up in a stall spin.
Like you said, it's important to practice these procedures every now and again to make sure you understand how your airplane performs in given conditions at specific airports. Gotta also keep in mind, the idle engine thrust is still better than no engine at all and if you were barely making it back at idle, it's super unlikely you'll make it back with an engine out.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Density Altitude does not affect glide performance as it does not change the Lift to Drag ratio. It absolutely affects engine performance, but you've lost the engine and turned into a glider in this case.
@@AmendMD that's true I believe, but density altitude will affect climb performance and if you're sluggish to get to altitude you may be too far away to turn back to the field or too low to successfully turn back in general
Ive lost my engine in a mooney after take off 100AGL, I landed on a highway overpass and I rear ended a lexus. No injuries.
if you would have had a very long runway i.e., you would still be over the runway on climb 700 ft. there must be some kind of formular that includes rwy length, climb, and head/tailwind to cauculate if and at what alttitude the "impossible turn" is vialble.
If I remember correctly, you were alone when you did them in a previous video. Would adding a second occupant contribute to you not being able to make it back this time?
Also that wind and heat definitely played a factor for ya.
Kudos to the Fiancé for hanging in their with ya! Great video, definitely learned a lot!
Extra weight, slower climb rate, wind, how you fly. They are all factors indeed. Density altitude is a big one too and it is very hot here in Florida at the moment. Glad you learned something! I’d like to try it again soon!
We need to see you with your four shoulder bars flying the ATR as captain.....Get your other half her PPL and she could become your first officer. 😊😊😊😊
I was trying it with DA20 with much better glide ratio 14:1. I managed to line up with the simulated runway (VOR) within 500 feet. BUT I would be landing at least 500 meter shorter of my takeoff point so in my opinion it is possible with strong winds, loooong runway or significant clearway. Still worth to consider in every takeoff briefing
With most light GA aircraft on all but the shortest private or remote runways you will be rotating more than 1600feet(500m) before the end. So it should be viable. (With whatever exact parameters you were testsing.)
@@mytech6779 Not everywhere have pilots such a luxurious life. :-) My home airport's runway LOAU is 800m long and is one of the longer GA airfields around. I learned to fly on 500m long grass strip.
It just feels weird seeing you fly the high wing sky boats 😂
Feels weird flying em! They aren’t natural 😂
Opinion: I fly out of a runway with few good options until about 1000'. I just gave in to the lycoming gods and stay in the pattern until I reach 1000'. It makes me feel better and costs about $5 in fuel. Your opinions?
Crosswind turn is typically done at 500' and that was in this case unsuccessful, so no difference. If you keep climbing though and loose engine on the crosswind leg (instead of climbing to 1000' on the upwind), it is possible to come back. I have successfully tested that scenario a couple of times. Theoretically you should be able to glide back from any point in the pattern.
What were the wind conditions at the time?
Light and variable.
the airport I fly out of has 8000 ft on runway, so after watching this video, I think I could probably make it back since i'm taking off before 2000 ft. will have to see during my next lesson.
Also were you with full fuel? Is this situation made worse if you aren't using a short field technique?
Yes full fuel. How fast or slowly you climb certainly affects it.
Did you try 1000 feet? The headwind definitely makes a difference. Going to try this myself. Is that a 172R Lewis?
I didn’t try 1000 feet on this day but yes it is a C172R
Try Vx & no less than 45 degrees bank in the turn
🤜🏼🤛🏼
I've practiced this multiple time in an archer II with my CFI and I can easily make it back climbing at VY at 800 AGL in a no wind condition.
That's because there are many other factors other than just wind, such as weight, density altitude, and total runway length. Unless you are taking all of these factors into account, you are assuming quite a risk wasting precious altitude and time turning back when its much safer the majority of the time to land straight ahead.
@@rlCharles You ever practice it, or even no power 180's to landing?
@@craigsanders6925 Absolutely have. And as mentioned, all of these factors are going to determine whether it's possible or not. It's not clear cut just because you did it one time, on one particular day, under a single set of conditions, on one specific runway.
@@rlCharles It wasn't just one runway on one day at a specific time and conditions. In fact the first time I did it with my CFI we did it at an untowered airport with crossing runways. We did it to every runway that day. Take off on one and turn around and land on the same one or land on a crossing runway. On the short runway I actually needed to fly a bigger arc so that I didn't run out of runway after landing.
I've done it on multiple days to multiple runways when it's cool, when it's hot, when it's windy. For me in that plane I'd be very confident I could make it, especially solo. Now at Tahoe with a high density altitude there's no way I'd attempt it. In the Citabria that I did my tailwheel training I'd bet it could be done at a lower elevation but I haven't practiced it enough to be confident that it is true.
Can you make a video about full flaps takeoff? I know it's not allowed or recommended for 99% of planes but I'm just wondering why and how bad it is. Is takeoff even possible?
There’s way too much drag with full flaps and it’s very dangerous in that configuration on takeoff. Even during a go around there have been accidents because the pilot siding raise the flaps and lost control. It’s not something that I will ever do.
Why are you back taxiing along the side of the runway? Is that some kind of convention?
With larger centrelines aircraft can blend in. Taxiing to the side increases visibility.
All things being constant, I'm pretty sure trying from different altitudes doesn't make any difference, you're still climbing at the same rate, and you're still gliding back down at the same rate, so if it didn't work once it won't ever work unless the wind changes. Changing climb speed and bank angle during the turnaround would be more interesting parameters to play around with.
As you saw in the video, it made no difference whatsoever.
I’m so confused why the front facing camera blurred the placards once airborne haha
Gimme a timestamp because I’m confused too 😂
See Lewis this is why you need a high performance aircraft. So you can gain that thousand feet before leaving the airspace above the runway. Time for a used fighter jet.
That’s the only possible option for me now. I’ll get on barnstormers
Ahah this girl is exactly like my wife. We are currently at one flight a year, working on that second flight maybe...
Haha good luck getting her back up. Slowly does it…
If the airplane's engine quits on takeoff/less than 1000 agl the insurance company is the new plane owner, I'm using their airplane to get me safely to the ground. I'm not worried about airplane damage, not my plane.
Less damage to the plane is less damage to you.
It's also important to consider the weight of the aircraft. You've done these videos before solo, but having your fiancé onboard increases the weight, and reduces your glide distance. Also your max altitude here was 900' because of the clouds, but maybe 1000' or 1100' would have worked. Next time, you should keep going to find the limit of when you can turn and when you can't.
The problem on that runway going east is the Apopka airport. Climbing much further puts me in their pattern and I don’t want to encroach on them. Taking off westbound is a different story. I’ll try and go again using that runway.
@@LewDixAviation Try a longer runway!
@@LewDixAviation you can also bring a bunch of boxes to simulate different payloads. Go up fully loaded for a couple rounds, then taxi back and offload them gradually.
79 Vy eh 🤫
When is the lady getting her license? 👀
This subject made me wonder since you are promoting your girlfriend to Wife-hood. So I assume she will be flying often with you. Do you intend to train her a little bit as a designated Pilot. Meaning if something where to happen to you during a flight, could she fly the plane to an airport and land, without too much assistance or being talked down by ATC. Jason Miller did a couple of videos on this subject as well.
You mentioned you were doing this video so you could make good decisions if anything should happen made me wonder about this. Just to clarify I don't mean train her to pass a check ride and become a private pilot (unless she wants to) but just train her, enough so she can fly the plane and land should anything happen to you.
My intention was to very slowly get her doing things here and there so she can see how it all works. This wasn’t necessarily for the reason you said but you bring up a great point that it would be great to have a backup if anything happened. Great idea!
Maybe she wouldn't be so nervous if it wasn't a high wing😜😁.
This is 100% a fact!
😬 Promo>SM
How can the future wife of a now CAPTAIN of an airline be nervous?? Like did you just get your pilot wings. Drop her off, I'll go up with you AND buy lunch :) We can do spins down to pattern altitude to land :)
You didnt turn steep and hard enough.
Man: Literally flying a plane and doing rather dangerous manouvers
Girl: I have no idea what i signed up for but im gona play with the window hehe