thumbnail is like POV: machamp beats you unconscious. thread with all the arguments, starting with this post: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xv-dpp-discussion.3734077/page-2#post-10071272 previous video on whether clef should be banned: th-cam.com/video/CMb2jws3da8/w-d-xo.html
So I was walking down the street to a groovy beat, and all of the sudden I ran into BKC’s good friend Ryan Gosling! He was saying to leave a comment on the video because it is good for engagement, along with how you should support BKC in making his movie!
I’m a no complex banner, but no joke Kev is cooking that no Iron Flinch Jirachi would make the game its best version. While I hate losing to Gyara flinch as much as the next guy, I also don’t want to live in a post-Mence world where Gyara has to rely on 90% accurate STAB- I think that’s tooooo much power removed from DDers, which in all right should be a defining feature of DPP.
I think a good complex ban would be Serene Grace + flinch move. Deal with jirachi and togekiss without banning either or banning a whole move that’s only broken on one Mon
@@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise I been playing since 2009 on shoddy battle. This complex ban just sounds like some pussy shit tbh. There's plenty counterplay for some "complex ban", to happen to a tier that is almost 16 years old.
Gengar and smeargle are capable of the same stuff though, so a full missy ban I think would be weird. I’d say maybe mean look/spider web would be the things to ban if they needed to pick something, but who knows if they’d run into the “crobat isn’t broken with mean look” ridiculousness with that. In general gsc trap pass/perish trap/sleep trap/any combination of these is so weird to tier without complex stuff
I think a modern approach would have already banned GS Snorlax, Zapdos, Raikou and possibly Nidoking. Who knows how deep it could go... Considering Snorlax is the undisputed best Pokémon in the game, the idea of having Gen 2 Anything Goes populated by just Snorlax sounds bizarre but fitting, in a way.
soundproof basically got banned from ADV OU so they could keep mr mime in UU, if the snake of tiering action can twist its way out of that one then surely iron head can get banned for the sake of jirachi staying in gen 4 OU
Haven't watched most of the video yet, but I still have a question. Why is Electivire left to rot in Gen 4 OU instead of dropping, while Gen 1 OU is still seeing like yearly updates, rises, drops, bans and stuff?
A test to see whether Electrivire is acceptable in UU can't be done then? Despite its hype back in the early days of DPP, Electivire just didn't hit what it was supposed to hit hard enough to be of real use in standard play. It may fare slightly better in UU, and the tier has enough defensive mons to keep Electivire at bay (Steelix and Rhyperior in particular). But if its a stable tier its probably best to leave the tier alone (although that never stopped Latias from getting unbanned until years later).
What bothers me about this whole thing is that anti-Iron Head ban people say "oh well Iron Head is only a problem on Jirachi" and then turn a blind eye to how Snow Cloak is less likely to activate than a Serene Grace Iron Head flinch.
genuine question: why do the global tiering policies exist in the first place? what's the history there? i feel like that context would help a lot with understanding some of these decisions and controversies
I think that Smogon's ban policy sucks, it feels like doing a goverment paper. "oh we cannot do X because it would go against policy" My brother in christ we've ignored policy for years
6:40 Wouldn't banning Waterfall kill gyarados entirely? Jirachi can survive without Iron head but Gyarados REALLY needs Waterfall as a primary stab move even ignoring the flinch
@@BKCplaysPokemon That runs into the same problem of games being decided by chance. Only missing a move is a lot worse and matters more often. Serene Grace + Flinch move is what enables the stupid shit like Jirachis trying to flinch down Heatrans. I would touch that and leave Gyarados alone.
@@BKCplaysPokemon interesting take tbh mono attack sets used by gyara is waterfall. Accuracy and flinch rate is what keeps it viable. I’d love to see someone try to make that work but doubt it would be anywhere near as consistent. And I never thought gyara was broken
The only tiering controversy I wanna see BKC cover is the tier list of best Jake Gyllenhaal movies. Personally I dont think you can beat Nightcrawler, but id be lying if I said I didnt love Jarhead to death, but would I really put it over Donnie Darko? Brokeback Mountain? These are the questions I want BlazinKevinChicken to be tearing into nowadays.
Honestly, i know modifying mons to have no ability is a whole can of worms, but it would free ADV cacturne, DPP Froslass, DPP Jirachi, and feels like they dont take away from these pokemons identities too much if theyre without them. Maybe they should be more open to the option when it comes to Evasion/flinch related abilities.
Although I agree on everything you said about Jirachi, in my humble opinion clefable is far more of an abuser of spikes than it is an answer against them.
My opinion on flinch-rachi is that if they banned the item bright powder, and they banned garchomp due to his ability sand veil, I see it as very similar to flinch-rachi where you play a roulette to see if you get the flinch chance or not.
You are playing a game where every single move has a 6% chance of dealing double damage, ane often has a 10% chance of causing a status condition, that might itself have RNG elements to it like para or freeze. I dunno where I'm going with this. Have a good day.
Have you considered a video on building teams in DPP OU? Like what roles teams need and which pokemon can fill these roles. Also what team styles benefit heavily from specific synergies--or at the very least where to look for these resources (ideally across multiple gens). Like with ADV OU you typically hear things like "Needing a rock resist" and "You need a plan for DD Tar" and "You need a plan for Skarmory and its Spikes" but I don't really hear things like that as much--if at all--for other tiers. should probably wait for some tiering action (or lack thereof) to be taken on jirachi first though
I think it would be cool to see ADV, GSC and RBY touched in this brand new series. ADV conversations are always fun. (Also I've lost enough Heatrans to Jirachi to want it gone)
Smogon's blanket refusal to engage with nuance in tiering and policy because the one time it was done was in the worst run tier in smogon history is its biggest flaw and failure. second biggest failure is "well if we ban X, then we also have to ban Y and Z and A and B" as if that means we simply shouldn't go through the effort and spend the time to make the best tier possible - as if that isn't *literally* the council's job like you said, the rules didn't come from the sky hewn into rock; they're fallible and as soon as they're failing at their job to improve the tier, they need to be changed good vid kev
Taking away flinch moves from serene grace mons I could see, but taking away all 30% flinching moves seems excessive. At least for para/flinch strats(without serene grace) you need to both para and then use a flinching move in order to get the roll in your favor, so there’s a bit of set up involved vs jirachi getting 60% flinch rate off rip
Do you think that if flinch moves were banned that shaymin-sky would be ok to be dropped into ou, or do you think that it’s too good even without air slash spam?
22:24 I dunno papa Kev, this comes dangerously close to contradicting what you said about a sand attack ban ( 10:55 ) It’s not an exact comparison, just where I stand
Nothing has changed my mind since around 2016 i made up my mind iron head jirachi should not be something we face in serious matches. I do hope my children should i have any will get to live in a world without having to be flinched by a less capable persons
I don't have the experience in the tier to have an opinion, but it may be worth mentioning that rock slide would be a casualty under your proposal. I don't know if that changes your stance, given that rock slide is usually a very important and difficult to replace move.
i did a brief look and to my knowledge the only OU ranked pokemon who have rock slide but not sedge are: Skarmory, Metagross, Bronzong, Blissey, Empoleon and Forretress. And i think out of those only Metagross would use it regularly?
I would argue removing poison heal would be the best option to deal with breloom. The only really broken set is the sub punch one and removing poison heal would totally deal with that
water pulse is a confusion inducing move, dunno that it has a place in the tier though. i think in gen 5 water pulse rachi in rain is like the most viable user of water pulse i can think of...
not like iron head is jirachi's only physical stab flinching move. zen headbutt just has 90% acc, different coverage & dark immunity, & 60% flinch instead of 40%
I just think if your whole playstyle revolves around wishing for flinches and cheese your win with them, it just basically tells "I can't win without strategy so I must rely on RNG to win" Jirachi is a fine member to the dpp OU, it has many sets outside of Iron head. I love support and special set Jirachi but again everyone uses Iron head and it is frustrating to fight agaisnt. Banning Iron head on Jirachi wouldn't break the entire OU in half so I don't see the issue of just baning the one problematic move on the pokemon that abuses it the most.
I feel banning a move on a Pokemon is itself a silly idea. Moves contribute to the identity of a pokemon. I understand in egregious examples like Last Respects and sleep moves collectively, yeah, they had a poor impact on the Generation 9 OU metagame. But in the context of a move that contributes to the identity of a pokemon like identity, I feel like we should not ban a MOVE, but rather, the pokemon itself. Jirachi is part and parcel with iron head flinches; if that's toxic to the metagame, then Jirachi shouldn't be in it.
@@BKCplaysPokemon Iron head itself isn't broken tho. It is exclusively an issue on Jirachi. Just get rid or it. Besides Iron head isn't its only issue, it has 20% freeze chance on ice punch. the issue it rachi
Who tf else is using iron head if not to spam flinches tho ? Is removing the move that nothing except rachi is using not better than removing a mon that contributes so much with its non IH sets @@PKMN649
I would actually play Gen 4 OU so much more if Iron Head Jirachi, Latias and Dynamic Punch Machamp were axed. Clef can stay, pink blobs are chill w/ me :). Oh and Togekiss is just funny, it's like Froslass in that vein imo but I wouldn't cry if Air Slash left the tier.
I have to admit, I'm personally on the side that banning moves to tier parts of Pokemon is bad (but shouldn't be a universal rule, and banning Froslass is stupid). That said, I really like the idea of just banning rng flinch moves. I'm sure there's downsides I haven't thought of, but I feel like that both takes away stupid stuff, and is within tiering policy as it's banning the actually uncompetitive (and *consistently* uncompetitive across Pokemon) part of the metagame. Definitely in favor of banning confusion as well, and would love to see more people on ladder using Machamp in less annoying ways.
Do you guys think there's any merit in twave registeel being able to fill that defensive jirachi role in some ways, if it were to get banned? I'm nowhere near a great player, but I've always felt it was a really good defensive check to many threats and could fill a similar role in that way.
Genuine question: I frequently hear that smogon won’t ban certain things (recently it’s mostly been moves: iron head, scald, confuse ray, etc) because that goes against policy. But setting aside the question about whether we should occasionally go against policy, why can’t or shouldn’t we just change the policy? Why is it against policy to ban, say, a given move? In fact, aren’t insta-kill moves (fissure, sheer cold, horn drill, etc.) already globally banned in smogon tiers? Why is this a thing? I don’t think there’s any reasonable argument to be made to say these are complex bans, we’re just talking about banning a move from the tier as a whole here. Edit: aren’t sleep-inducing moves banned from Gen 5 and Gen 9 OU, as well? If banning Iron Head would go against Smogon policy, then I just don’t understand Smogon policy.
"Smogon policy" is a load of shit. Don't get me wrong, I understand some of their bans. OHKO moves, while inaccurate, are just not fun to play against. You shouldn't outright lose a full HP Pokemon because of a 30% chance. On the flipside, who the hell decided that Snow Cloak (20%) is more of an issue than Iron Head Jirachi (60%!!)? What it all boila down to is that they ban whatever they don't like. The "tiering policy" is just their way of trying to hide that.
Something like luck from flinch jirachi should mean it’s banned in every meta not just Gen 4 . if your point of contention the hax, but the hax stays the same amount for the rest of the series , why should it be allowed now?
While I agree, it's base 100 speed and more good Pokémon resist it every generation. I really fucking hate Serene Grace, but the argument not to ban its users gets stronger every generation
The thing is though that Gens after 4 introduced a lot better counterplay to Jirachi like Rocky Helmet, more common Haxbody and Intimdate Users, better speed tiers, etc.
This just sounds like a list of basic threats that you should be prepared for if you've built a half-decent team. None of the threats mentioned in this video restrict teambuilding by requiring you to run specific Pokemon as counterplay, they just require that you...not slap 6 random mons together and call it a day. People really want to ban specific moves on specific Pokemon because they can't be bothered to team build to address the threat, or get annoyed because a 10% chance to die to a series of consecutive flinches takes more turns than a 10% chance to randomly get frozen by Ice Beam. Sometimes you just lose because something low probability happened. Its Pokemon, the entire game is built around 10% chances for random BS to occur.
Why can't garchomp be unbanned again? Just block sand + sand veil (accuracy boosting ability) on that thing to shake up the tier again? If not...well...complex bans were done as a very last resort and the easier option for tiering issues were to just suspect test and ban the pokemon entirely :shrug And I don't blame some of these players for wanting to see suspect tests either because the recent suspect tests + bans that happened in gen 9 caused suspect tests to be treated more or less a hockey game on Saturday night. +400 Jirachi ban anyone? Bet 100 bucks and win 400 if the ban happens :/
The problem is that ttar, a very important and popular mon, sets up sand, as does hippowdon; so many teams could get ruined by rng as a punishment for bringing one wrong pokemon
The recent trend of suspect tests (the recent gen pokes) introduced Pokemon that were potentially thought to be banworthy (walking wake, gouging fire, Kingambit) but ended up surviving the ban attempts under closer inspection. Maybe, just maybe, the qualification/standards for what makes a Pokemon actually banworthy in a metagame could be different VS what it was back in what? 2010-12? I used to play DPP and BW way back in 2010 to 13 and voted on a suspect test for DPP (Latios) but ever since that King's Rock ban happened, this got me wondering if random and occasional flinches could be an actual reason for a metagame to be uncompetitive... Personally id rather leave DPP alone but new suspect tests are interesting to observe from time to time so if they happen im always down to watch & read. The snow cloak and sand veil bans also lead to the conclusion that the involvement of luck during a match was enough of an issue such that action had to be taken against it.
Sand veil isn't the only reason chomp was banned, but a sand veil + sand stream complex ban probably wouldn't work out for the same reason as sand stream + sand rush in BW: even if you couldn't bring a sand setter along with 'chomp, there was a *very* good chance your opponent would be bringing one, which means that you now have a garchomp with veil active while your opponent doesn't have chomp at all (as per the complex ban.) And once your opponent activates chomp (which they can't know of because there's no team preview,) then what are they gonna do to stop it? Dedicate a moveslot to removing their own weather, likely having to use it while chomp is on the field. Also, the thing about recent generations is that they are, well, much more recent. It's entirely reasonable for a new, actively developing generation to have pokemon that seem overpowered at first, but turn out to not be as bad once the playerbase gets accustomed to it. Gen 4, on the other hand, is almost 20 years old at this point. If there were some strategy to properly defuse garchomp, the community probably would have found it by now, but part of it is just a matter of numbers. Garchomp is simply too fast, strong and bulky for the generation it was released in, even without the 20% chance for your garchomp answer to just not work.
Serious question, do you think so called “girly” Pokémon receive more scrutiny from the Pokémon community? Or at the very least do more ‘badass’ ones receive less scrutiny?
I’ll be honest, I’m not that educated in the Pokemon tiering process, but why can’t they let all of the Pokemon listed as OU by technicality be allowed in the lower tiers if they aren’t good in OU?
They would alter the way those lower tiers function. Say, if Electivire were to drop to UU, it could cause a domino effect by replacing UU residents and forcing them to drop as well. I mean, you are technically correct, Smogon is being subjective here. If a Pokémon doesn't deserve being in a higher tier, it should drop to a lower tier. But the thing is, people who play those formats have grown used to the way these lower tiers function and very often, these formats have a very small playerbase that could abandon the game if things change too much.
@@boop53 like machamp he has other sets like special/mixed he doesn’t rely on outrage for stab and honestly same goes for Dragonite they have other sets to work with as well
Why don't they seperate the rules between OU and smogon tournaments? Seems like it would avoid a lot of the conflict between tournament play and laddering.
Idk about iron head Jirachi We never know how metagames develop, what if players start using Iron Head on Metagross or Scizor (Iron Head With Bullet punch)? It would be unfair to not let players have those options
I would sacrifice the nonexistent iron head meta and the technically existent but generally useless iron head scizor 1000 out of 1000 times to get rid of iron head jirachi
thumbnail is like POV: machamp beats you unconscious.
thread with all the arguments, starting with this post: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xv-dpp-discussion.3734077/page-2#post-10071272
previous video on whether clef should be banned: th-cam.com/video/CMb2jws3da8/w-d-xo.html
So I was walking down the street to a groovy beat, and all of the sudden I ran into BKC’s good friend Ryan Gosling! He was saying to leave a comment on the video because it is good for engagement, along with how you should support BKC in making his movie!
Who is Ryan Gosling?
Bw and dpp ou player base 🤝🏻 not being able to ban things to help their meta games because Smogon tiering policy
Someone just rammed into my car, and I flinched; just like DPP OU with Jirachi.
bureaucracy that makes Gorbachev blush
I’m a no complex banner, but no joke Kev is cooking that no Iron Flinch Jirachi would make the game its best version. While I hate losing to Gyara flinch as much as the next guy, I also don’t want to live in a post-Mence world where Gyara has to rely on 90% accurate STAB- I think that’s tooooo much power removed from DDers, which in all right should be a defining feature of DPP.
I think a good complex ban would be Serene Grace + flinch move. Deal with jirachi and togekiss without banning either or banning a whole move that’s only broken on one Mon
That seems logical
Or players could just get better.
@@Mrdonjuliothewicked Bait used to be believable
@@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise so why are people asking for a complex ban for then?
@@It-Will-All-Be-Okay-I-Promise I been playing since 2009 on shoddy battle. This complex ban just sounds like some pussy shit tbh. There's plenty counterplay for some "complex ban", to happen to a tier that is almost 16 years old.
I wonder if todays smogon beauracracy would have banned sleep moves, trapping moves, or misdreavus as a whole in GSC.
Also free froslass.
Gengar and smeargle are capable of the same stuff though, so a full missy ban I think would be weird. I’d say maybe mean look/spider web would be the things to ban if they needed to pick something, but who knows if they’d run into the “crobat isn’t broken with mean look” ridiculousness with that.
In general gsc trap pass/perish trap/sleep trap/any combination of these is so weird to tier without complex stuff
I think a modern approach would have already banned GS Snorlax, Zapdos, Raikou and possibly Nidoking. Who knows how deep it could go... Considering Snorlax is the undisputed best Pokémon in the game, the idea of having Gen 2 Anything Goes populated by just Snorlax sounds bizarre but fitting, in a way.
Wake up honey, a new DPP OU Tiering Controversy: 2024 Edition just dropped.
Wake up honey. The wake up comment just dropped.
@gilliusthunderhead2185 wake up, honey. The wake-up, wake-up comment comment just dropped.
soundproof basically got banned from ADV OU so they could keep mr mime in UU, if the snake of tiering action can twist its way out of that one then surely iron head can get banned for the sake of jirachi staying in gen 4 OU
6:06 We getting redemption for Lavos now?
Haven't watched most of the video yet, but I still have a question. Why is Electivire left to rot in Gen 4 OU instead of dropping, while Gen 1 OU is still seeing like yearly updates, rises, drops, bans and stuff?
people (like myself) love dpp uu the way it is! if enough of the playerbase wanted to try evire or whatever else like noir then I'm sure it'd be done
@@BKCplaysPokemon
I see. Thanks.
A test to see whether Electrivire is acceptable in UU can't be done then?
Despite its hype back in the early days of DPP, Electivire just didn't hit what it was supposed to hit hard enough to be of real use in standard play. It may fare slightly better in UU, and the tier has enough defensive mons to keep Electivire at bay (Steelix and Rhyperior in particular).
But if its a stable tier its probably best to leave the tier alone (although that never stopped Latias from getting unbanned until years later).
Ah yes smogon tiering logic that froslass needs to go but iron head/waterfall needs to stay
What bothers me about this whole thing is that anti-Iron Head ban people say "oh well Iron Head is only a problem on Jirachi" and then turn a blind eye to how Snow Cloak is less likely to activate than a Serene Grace Iron Head flinch.
genuine question: why do the global tiering policies exist in the first place? what's the history there? i feel like that context would help a lot with understanding some of these decisions and controversies
Leaving a comment because it's good for engagement, and the algorithm, and that other gross corporate stuff.
I think that Smogon's ban policy sucks, it feels like doing a goverment paper. "oh we cannot do X because it would go against policy"
My brother in christ we've ignored policy for years
6:40 Wouldn't banning Waterfall kill gyarados entirely? Jirachi can survive without Iron head but Gyarados REALLY needs Waterfall as a primary stab move even ignoring the flinch
it has aqua tail which is 90% accurate but also stronger than wf by 10 bp!
@@BKCplaysPokemon That runs into the same problem of games being decided by chance. Only missing a move is a lot worse and matters more often. Serene Grace + Flinch move is what enables the stupid shit like Jirachis trying to flinch down Heatrans. I would touch that and leave Gyarados alone.
@@CardiacAtttackexcept that if your gyarados is faster instead of you missing a move, your opponent is missing a move
@@BKCplaysPokemon interesting take tbh mono attack sets used by gyara is waterfall. Accuracy and flinch rate is what keeps it viable. I’d love to see someone try to make that work but doubt it would be anywhere near as consistent. And I never thought gyara was broken
Similar to sleep clause, a flinch clause that prevented you from being flinched twice in a row would be really cool to see personally
The only tiering controversy I wanna see BKC cover is the tier list of best Jake Gyllenhaal movies. Personally I dont think you can beat Nightcrawler, but id be lying if I said I didnt love Jarhead to death, but would I really put it over Donnie Darko? Brokeback Mountain? These are the questions I want BlazinKevinChicken to be tearing into nowadays.
Prisoners would be my pick
i agree with banning Iron Head, but not Waterfall, i laughed at Lavos too many times to end up banning Waterfall
Honestly, i know modifying mons to have no ability is a whole can of worms, but it would free ADV cacturne, DPP Froslass, DPP Jirachi, and feels like they dont take away from these pokemons identities too much if theyre without them. Maybe they should be more open to the option when it comes to Evasion/flinch related abilities.
18:44 I was positive BKC was gonna say “jirachee the player not the Pokémon”
Although I agree on everything you said about Jirachi, in my humble opinion clefable is far more of an abuser of spikes than it is an answer against them.
My opinion on flinch-rachi is that if they banned the item bright powder, and they banned garchomp due to his ability sand veil, I see it as very similar to flinch-rachi where you play a roulette to see if you get the flinch chance or not.
You are playing a game where every single move has a 6% chance of dealing double damage, ane often has a 10% chance of causing a status condition, that might itself have RNG elements to it like para or freeze.
I dunno where I'm going with this. Have a good day.
And I wish you have a good day too
Have you considered a video on building teams in DPP OU? Like what roles teams need and which pokemon can fill these roles. Also what team styles benefit heavily from specific synergies--or at the very least where to look for these resources (ideally across multiple gens).
Like with ADV OU you typically hear things like "Needing a rock resist" and "You need a plan for DD Tar" and "You need a plan for Skarmory and its Spikes" but I don't really hear things like that as much--if at all--for other tiers.
should probably wait for some tiering action (or lack thereof) to be taken on jirachi first though
I think it would be cool to see ADV, GSC and RBY touched in this brand new series. ADV conversations are always fun.
(Also I've lost enough Heatrans to Jirachi to want it gone)
Smogon's blanket refusal to engage with nuance in tiering and policy because the one time it was done was in the worst run tier in smogon history is its biggest flaw and failure.
second biggest failure is "well if we ban X, then we also have to ban Y and Z and A and B" as if that means we simply shouldn't go through the effort and spend the time to make the best tier possible - as if that isn't *literally* the council's job
like you said, the rules didn't come from the sky hewn into rock; they're fallible and as soon as they're failing at their job to improve the tier, they need to be changed
good vid kev
i dont know anything about dpp but i totaly agree with whatever is the popular opinion
Taking away flinch moves from serene grace mons I could see, but taking away all 30% flinching moves seems excessive. At least for para/flinch strats(without serene grace) you need to both para and then use a flinching move in order to get the roll in your favor, so there’s a bit of set up involved vs jirachi getting 60% flinch rate off rip
Do you think that if flinch moves were banned that shaymin-sky would be ok to be dropped into ou, or do you think that it’s too good even without air slash spam?
Banning Iron Head on DPP Jirachi and Magic Guard in BW OU would solve lot of issues with thoses, shame its off the table.
22:24 I dunno papa Kev, this comes dangerously close to contradicting what you said about a sand attack ban ( 10:55 )
It’s not an exact comparison, just where I stand
Outrage, u forgot about Outrage confusion lmao
Thank you now I can have an opinion on gen 4.
The best of both worlds (this is a joke) would be to ban Jirachi from using physical moves altogether
im the first person that heard bkc mention banning dynamic punch (at 23:52)
Nothing has changed my mind since around 2016 i made up my mind iron head jirachi should not be something we face in serious matches. I do hope my children should i have any will get to live in a world without having to be flinched by a less capable persons
I don't have the experience in the tier to have an opinion, but it may be worth mentioning that rock slide would be a casualty under your proposal. I don't know if that changes your stance, given that rock slide is usually a very important and difficult to replace move.
Dpp has stone edge and I’m not sure who really uses rock slide regularly, but yeah it would kind of suck to not have the option
i did a brief look and to my knowledge the only OU ranked pokemon who have rock slide but not sedge are: Skarmory, Metagross, Bronzong, Blissey, Empoleon and Forretress. And i think out of those only Metagross would use it regularly?
@@boop53 nah bro trust me choice band blissey go dummmy
I would argue removing poison heal would be the best option to deal with breloom. The only really broken set is the sub punch one and removing poison heal would totally deal with that
down with spore, down with 100% accurate twave- my sign as a doom walker. I’d love to come back to the tier
water pulse is a confusion inducing move, dunno that it has a place in the tier though. i think in gen 5 water pulse rachi in rain is like the most viable user of water pulse i can think of...
not like iron head is jirachi's only physical stab flinching move. zen headbutt just has 90% acc, different coverage & dark immunity, & 60% flinch instead of 40%
I just think if your whole playstyle revolves around wishing for flinches and cheese your win with them, it just basically tells "I can't win without strategy so I must rely on RNG to win"
Jirachi is a fine member to the dpp OU, it has many sets outside of Iron head. I love support and special set Jirachi but again everyone uses Iron head and it is frustrating to fight agaisnt. Banning Iron head on Jirachi wouldn't break the entire OU in half so I don't see the issue of just baning the one problematic move on the pokemon that abuses it the most.
Just you wait until the Magmortar-vire cores start wreaking havoc
I feel banning a move on a Pokemon is itself a silly idea. Moves contribute to the identity of a pokemon. I understand in egregious examples like Last Respects and sleep moves collectively, yeah, they had a poor impact on the Generation 9 OU metagame. But in the context of a move that contributes to the identity of a pokemon like identity, I feel like we should not ban a MOVE, but rather, the pokemon itself. Jirachi is part and parcel with iron head flinches; if that's toxic to the metagame, then Jirachi shouldn't be in it.
it wouldn't be banning a move on a pokemon though! it'd be banning the move full stop (not that I'm opposed to move + pokemon in old gens anyway)
@@BKCplaysPokemon Iron head itself isn't broken tho. It is exclusively an issue on Jirachi. Just get rid or it. Besides Iron head isn't its only issue, it has 20% freeze chance on ice punch. the issue it rachi
Who tf else is using iron head if not to spam flinches tho ? Is removing the move that nothing except rachi is using not better than removing a mon that contributes so much with its non IH sets @@PKMN649
I would actually play Gen 4 OU so much more if Iron Head Jirachi, Latias and Dynamic Punch Machamp were axed. Clef can stay, pink blobs are chill w/ me :). Oh and Togekiss is just funny, it's like Froslass in that vein imo but I wouldn't cry if Air Slash left the tier.
I have to admit, I'm personally on the side that banning moves to tier parts of Pokemon is bad (but shouldn't be a universal rule, and banning Froslass is stupid). That said, I really like the idea of just banning rng flinch moves. I'm sure there's downsides I haven't thought of, but I feel like that both takes away stupid stuff, and is within tiering policy as it's banning the actually uncompetitive (and *consistently* uncompetitive across Pokemon) part of the metagame. Definitely in favor of banning confusion as well, and would love to see more people on ladder using Machamp in less annoying ways.
Now that I've gotten aight at gen3 ou I was thinking of trying gen4 ou, but I'll be real...I don't feel like dealing with Jirachi ahahah
20% flinch would ban Dark Pulse, I think the only thing that would even consider using it is Lucario maybe as an awkward coverage move
I can't believe they made that decision about this metagame! Goodness!!
Do you guys think there's any merit in twave registeel being able to fill that defensive jirachi role in some ways, if it were to get banned? I'm nowhere near a great player, but I've always felt it was a really good defensive check to many threats and could fill a similar role in that way.
Not really because it provides very little against stall
jirachi can go. Honestly. DPP would attract more players
If you ban confusion you ban hurricane right, which is fine it's not overbearing or anything, or am I not understanding the point?
hurricane doesn't exist in DPP!
The first replay was insane
Ban Iron Head, Ban Sleep Moves, Ban Clefable
I understand why snow cloaks ban exists but froslass was my favourite lead in DPP OU for years. Would an abomasnow froslass complex ban be feasible?
Genuine question: I frequently hear that smogon won’t ban certain things (recently it’s mostly been moves: iron head, scald, confuse ray, etc) because that goes against policy. But setting aside the question about whether we should occasionally go against policy, why can’t or shouldn’t we just change the policy?
Why is it against policy to ban, say, a given move? In fact, aren’t insta-kill moves (fissure, sheer cold, horn drill, etc.) already globally banned in smogon tiers? Why is this a thing? I don’t think there’s any reasonable argument to be made to say these are complex bans, we’re just talking about banning a move from the tier as a whole here.
Edit: aren’t sleep-inducing moves banned from Gen 5 and Gen 9 OU, as well? If banning Iron Head would go against Smogon policy, then I just don’t understand Smogon policy.
"Smogon policy" is a load of shit.
Don't get me wrong, I understand some of their bans. OHKO moves, while inaccurate, are just not fun to play against. You shouldn't outright lose a full HP Pokemon because of a 30% chance. On the flipside, who the hell decided that Snow Cloak (20%) is more of an issue than Iron Head Jirachi (60%!!)?
What it all boila down to is that they ban whatever they don't like. The "tiering policy" is just their way of trying to hide that.
I don’t really see iron head as the problem with Jirachi, more it being combined with paralysis
Instead of banning dynamic punch, you could just make it so that mons never get confused (except thru outrage type things)
Something like luck from flinch jirachi should mean it’s banned in every meta not just Gen 4 . if your point of contention the hax, but the hax stays the same amount for the rest of the series , why should it be allowed now?
While I agree, it's base 100 speed and more good Pokémon resist it every generation. I really fucking hate Serene Grace, but the argument not to ban its users gets stronger every generation
The thing is though that Gens after 4 introduced a lot better counterplay to Jirachi like Rocky Helmet, more common Haxbody and Intimdate Users, better speed tiers, etc.
Unrelated, but the rise of Nidoqueen in DPP OU? What made a NU pokemon viable in OU sounds very interesting
What about flinch clause? Flinching no longer works!
I think I read about somebody else thinking waterfall gyarados can do some pretty stupid stuff
I have to say, the thought of banning iron head or Jirachi feels so alien to me
We're so back
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Is removing iron head from jirachi a complex ban?
It feels to me like people are just whining at this point. nothing mentioned in this video is ban worthy at all.
This just sounds like a list of basic threats that you should be prepared for if you've built a half-decent team. None of the threats mentioned in this video restrict teambuilding by requiring you to run specific Pokemon as counterplay, they just require that you...not slap 6 random mons together and call it a day. People really want to ban specific moves on specific Pokemon because they can't be bothered to team build to address the threat, or get annoyed because a 10% chance to die to a series of consecutive flinches takes more turns than a 10% chance to randomly get frozen by Ice Beam.
Sometimes you just lose because something low probability happened. Its Pokemon, the entire game is built around 10% chances for random BS to occur.
@@fabulousauruspeks7010-guy who probably plays ninjask pass in ADV
@@LordBeau baton pass is banned for being consistent and non rng. what are you talking about? if you have a brain you should use it.
@@farronssb ninjask pass as it currently stands in ADV OU is a matchup fish strategy that quite frankly should get ninjask banned
The tiering council sounds like a bunch of reddit mods
Maybe ban having flinch moves on a Pokemon with Serene Grace?
Why can't garchomp be unbanned again?
Just block sand + sand veil (accuracy boosting ability) on that thing to shake up the tier again?
If not...well...complex bans were done as a very last resort and the easier option for tiering issues were to just suspect test and ban the pokemon entirely :shrug
And I don't blame some of these players for wanting to see suspect tests either because the recent suspect tests + bans that happened in gen 9 caused suspect tests to be treated more or less a hockey game on Saturday night.
+400 Jirachi ban anyone? Bet 100 bucks and win 400 if the ban happens :/
The problem is that ttar, a very important and popular mon, sets up sand, as does hippowdon; so many teams could get ruined by rng as a punishment for bringing one wrong pokemon
Garchomp in gen 4 is extremely broken even not considering sand veil. It's probably more overpowered than mew or lugia.
The recent trend of suspect tests (the recent gen pokes) introduced Pokemon that were potentially thought to be banworthy (walking wake, gouging fire, Kingambit) but ended up surviving the ban attempts under closer inspection.
Maybe, just maybe, the qualification/standards for what makes a Pokemon actually banworthy in a metagame could be different VS what it was back in what? 2010-12?
I used to play DPP and BW way back in 2010 to 13 and voted on a suspect test for DPP (Latios) but ever since that King's Rock ban happened, this got me wondering if random and occasional flinches could be an actual reason for a metagame to be uncompetitive...
Personally id rather leave DPP alone but new suspect tests are interesting to observe from time to time so if they happen im always down to watch & read.
The snow cloak and sand veil bans also lead to the conclusion that the involvement of luck during a match was enough of an issue such that action had to be taken against it.
Sand veil isn't the only reason chomp was banned, but a sand veil + sand stream complex ban probably wouldn't work out for the same reason as sand stream + sand rush in BW: even if you couldn't bring a sand setter along with 'chomp, there was a *very* good chance your opponent would be bringing one, which means that you now have a garchomp with veil active while your opponent doesn't have chomp at all (as per the complex ban.) And once your opponent activates chomp (which they can't know of because there's no team preview,) then what are they gonna do to stop it? Dedicate a moveslot to removing their own weather, likely having to use it while chomp is on the field.
Also, the thing about recent generations is that they are, well, much more recent. It's entirely reasonable for a new, actively developing generation to have pokemon that seem overpowered at first, but turn out to not be as bad once the playerbase gets accustomed to it. Gen 4, on the other hand, is almost 20 years old at this point. If there were some strategy to properly defuse garchomp, the community probably would have found it by now, but part of it is just a matter of numbers. Garchomp is simply too fast, strong and bulky for the generation it was released in, even without the 20% chance for your garchomp answer to just not work.
Serious question, do you think so called “girly” Pokémon receive more scrutiny from the Pokémon community? Or at the very least do more ‘badass’ ones receive less scrutiny?
tf brah
What does this even mean
Latias is literally one of the best mon in the tier idk if anyone is complaining about her
all pokemon are girls mons like tyranitar are just like butches
I’ll be honest, I’m not that educated in the Pokemon tiering process, but why can’t they let all of the Pokemon listed as OU by technicality be allowed in the lower tiers if they aren’t good in OU?
They would alter the way those lower tiers function. Say, if Electivire were to drop to UU, it could cause a domino effect by replacing UU residents and forcing them to drop as well. I mean, you are technically correct, Smogon is being subjective here. If a Pokémon doesn't deserve being in a higher tier, it should drop to a lower tier.
But the thing is, people who play those formats have grown used to the way these lower tiers function and very often, these formats have a very small playerbase that could abandon the game if things change too much.
Engagement farm comment
Lets just make AG the standard format, it might be full of nonsense but atleast we wouldnt have to deal with the lazy/corrupt council
ez clap boys, caught at 13 seconds
7:23 I mean gyarados has other stab options like aqua tail
Bmogons Klunder Colicy
Confusion ban would mean outrage ban would that really effect anything other than like dragonite
flygon maybe?
@@boop53 like machamp he has other sets like special/mixed he doesn’t rely on outrage for stab and honestly same goes for Dragonite they have other sets to work with as well
Shrimply Ban Focus Blast in BW.
I don't actually play the tier but...
cool vid 👌
Im just going to say, Breloom. Ban spore and remove the sleep clause.
when i see rachi next to lati i see two bad bitches
Why don't they seperate the rules between OU and smogon tournaments? Seems like it would avoid a lot of the conflict between tournament play and laddering.
???
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@@esthersmith3056 Like the tournament can ban sleep instead forcing the entire OU to ban sleep for example.
smogon takes itself so seriously but its just a laughing stock
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just dont get flinched, forehead
Mr bkc my champion
Groovy
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Unban salamence😊
Idk about iron head Jirachi
We never know how metagames develop, what if players start using Iron Head on Metagross or Scizor (Iron Head With Bullet punch)?
It would be unfair to not let players have those options
I would sacrifice the nonexistent iron head meta and the technically existent but generally useless iron head scizor 1000 out of 1000 times to get rid of iron head jirachi
@@BKCplaysPokemon fair enough