That's a legitimate reason, I think that was actually a factor in BKC's love for Gen 4 Ubers, the coolness factor of having essentially Pokémon gods duking it out.
Ho-Oh is just amazing. It's the peak of old school pokemon design. That's the kind of aesthetic that would make you beg your mom to buy the cartridge as a kid.
Mewtwo is not OP at all. He is so weak that he literary is his own best counter. That is like being afraid of your own shadow. Are you really afraid of a Pokemon that is so easy to beat you have 50% to beat him with himself?
I think bringing back both Ho-Oh and Celebi ends up making Ho-Oh insanely difficult to break. Spikes Immune with 32 Recover PP with Heal Bell support from Celebi sounds nightmareish. Most answers to Ho-Oh easily get worn down by spikes and status. I think it would warp the teambuilder a bit much, though I'm all for Tar being better (specifically RestTar) I could be wrong, but those are my first impressions.
Bringing them both back would not be okay in the slightest. Introducing one but not the other would be a lot less crazy. I think celebi would be the healthier thing to unleash in the tier. Even then, it's a mythical with 100 stats across the board in a game with EVs maxed out. It's gonna be hard to kill, and it will also hit decently hard back.
ngl the idea of GSC ubers becoming standard is fucking with my head now specifically bc it creates an UU tier with Suicune, Jynx and Starmie but no good electrics (and Machamp/Nido too in case electabuzz gets any ideas)
Suicune would be in with the Ubers surely right?? I’ve never known it to be completely unviable in that tier but at the same time I haven’t played it in a while
I think gsc is a tier that many people don't like to pay or find enjoyable to ladder, due to the pace of the tier and how many games are built upon rest talk and explosion. Not bad entirely but it can be a drag to ladder when a game comes down to two awake raikou spamming sleep talk to conserve rest pp. I do wonder how a test tournament without sleep talk or rest + no lovely kiss would genuinely go as it might legitimately make things more interesting to pay for the average person. Like Zapdos wouldn't be annoying to deal with or over powered if it couldn't constantly rest. Meaning people would have to use it conservatively.
22:35 Not a fan of modifying the recover pp to something impossible to replicate on cartridge. I think 20 would be better, since that is just the default before pp ups. I'm not sure this reduction would actually be necessary, but I think that is a better point to start the discussion at anyway. Thank you friend.
is there a reason why lugia and mew aren't considered as well? ive never seen much discussion on them being allowed in gsc ou, are they just that much better?
Mew can use any move and 100 stats across the board, with the power level relatively lower in OU than Ubers, it would be less of a jack-of-all-trades and more of a master of all in GSC OU. As for Lugia, it's insane bulk and probably Aeroblast being absurdly strong flying STAB, especially in a tier with basically none. Accounting for that alone would throw a giant wrench into the meta.
Adding a psychic lax is funny as hell. It basically would do anything it wants set wise like Lax. It would be auto include on every team like Lax and the only way to beat it would be to have 2-3 mons dedicated to beating its core sets like we do for Lax now.
if GSC unbanned Ho-Oh and Celebi, GSC Ubers would still have more exclusive pokemon in it than RBY Ubers right? There'd be Mew, Mewtwo, and Lugia still
Just speaking as an outsider who's never played GSC competitive it feels really weird that Snorlax is objectively the most broken mon in the game but isn't in Ubers. It's like Snorlax has evolved past being a mon and morphed into just being a fundamental mechanic in OU lol Like instead of everyone having access to a Mega or access to a Z-move or something everyone just has access to Snorlax I dunno if that's a negative or a positive, but I do think shaking up the tiers would make more people interested in trying the meta out, if that's a goal they have anyway
This metagame would be much more balanced. Celebi would do its gen 3 thing to Snorlax while being easier to status because no natural cure unless you want to run heal bell. Snorlax needs to be balanced more. It is extremely overcentralizing and dominant but shouldn’t be banned because it keeps more broken strategies in check. Ho-oh may be broken though.
A meta for gsc, i would personaly find iteresting is to do a complex ban and ban hidden power on all electric types. I know that this does not directly impact the thing with jynx, but it would slow things down aswell, as it would take away one of zapdos best moves and give mons like golem and potentialy rhydon a bigger role in ou. Just something i would find interesting to test out in a tournament maybe.
Newer gens have to ban so much shit because of power creep. Meanwhile, older gens are unbanning things once thought to overpowered because of the overall lower power level. First Latios in DPP, now maybe Ho-Oh and Celebi. What a world.
i feel this video doesn’t talk enough about the casual gsc player base i would say i am apart of this group playing it for almost 2 years done some tourneys i support the idea of change
What do you think of the argument that GSC Snorlax enables offense? I hear this argument whenever the idea of Laxless GSC gets discussed, but I'm not sure how much I buy it, especially in an also Zapless metagame which would be new territory...
The alternate special walls are raikou and blissey. Compared to those two, snorlax makes much more offensive progress each time it comes in. And special walls are high in value due to special threats being faster and more numerous than physical threats in GSC. (Meaning in laxless most teams would still run a special wall.)
opinion before watching the video: while Ho-Oh could be tested in OU and it will be definitely top 5 after snorlax and either raikou or zapdos (zap is better than raikou because of the flying type. Playing Ho-Oh with zap implies two rock weaknesses in a meta where there aren't many popular switch ins for tyranitar); but Celebi? hell no reason why I would be against both unban: recover
I will say that some mons that would get better include the following should this happen, give or take. Articuno: Believe it or not this thing benefits from a Celebi metagame. Spikes immunity plus STAB Ice and the means to threaten freezes while also blocking them is nice utility. Wouldn't be amazing but would be better than it is now. Charizard: Definitely becomes a lot better as it now has the means to play a lot more of a threat. Rock Slide really smacks Ho-oh and Celebi doesn't want to come anywhere near you. Marowak: The slower pace of the game allows Marowak to be a lot more threatening. Heal Bell support from Celebi is also way more enabling for running rest than seen otherwise. Marowak also benefits from having the means to break bulkier teams with its wallbreaking prowess. Heracross: While Heracross absolutely hates Ho-oh, to the point where it might starting running Hidden Power Rock for it, it otherwise gets better as well. Megahorn is one of the few tools to break Celebi for an OHKO assuming you survive the psychic. Still flawed but improves. Suicune: Would be a water type that can stack up to Ho-oh regardless of the set because of its bulk. Benefits a lot from Jynx being less common and Zapdos being less oppressive. Tyranitar: Definitely benefits from Ho-oh being more common as it takes it on better than a lot of other rock types. While Golem, and maybe Rhydon, definitely have reason to run rock slide they aren't exactly fond of switching into either Toxic or Hidden Power. Tyranitar on the other hand breaks Ho oh fairly well and also chips Celebi with both pursuit and crunch if able to get team support. These are just some thoughts. Others I thought about but didn't list include Entei, Tentacruel, Clefable and maybe Tauros who is fast and packs rock slide.
There's a reason why Ubers exists. Yes, the best Pokémon in Gen 2 Ubers is not only OU-legal, but also the best Pokémon in Gen 2 OU, but that's because Snorlax provides a stabilizing presence to both tiers. Allowing the Ubers mons into OU would mean that the OU mons will for the most part be outcompeted, and that's why Ubers is needed: To help make sure all Pokémon have a tier that they can do well in, for the most part.
As a spectator, I know my opinion has very little value but the current pace of GSC has been by far my favorite to watch, my only real problem with it was some of the more haxxy games that were mostly up to jynx. My main problem is that it just feels very risky to do such drastic tiering action on such a well established and mostly well liked tier, since it tends to be harder to get the community imput you get for something like a suspect test
Ugh, idk, while im not exactly a good GCS OU player, I am a huge Ho-oh fan….lol but I’d almost hate to see it unbanned because in my mind that’s going to hurt Steelix’s viability a bit….he’d still be important as a Snorlax check on offensive teams, but the presence of Ho-oh will only make things harder for him I could see a big rise in Golem usage if Ho-oh comes into play, even though Celebi will make things a bit harder there I wish I could play Ubers GCS just to get a feel of what that’s like….im just guessing teams will be a lot more predictable lol, probably boring to an extent I suck at GSC, but I feel like leaving it alone is probably for the best despite Snorlax and Zapdos being so ridiculous
My question is why dont we just start splashing RestTalk Moltres onto teams more often? Its not nearly as bulky as Ho-Oh but it has equal power and virtually equal bulk to Zapdos who dominates the tier. It has a worse defensive typing sure, but being able to come in on Jynx barring a freeze solves that problem too. I think its pretty underexplored
The only argument for Ho-Oh and/or Celebi being unbanned in GSC OU I know of that's worth anything is that Snorlax is mandatory in OU. There's so little counterplay against it that you're basically only making a team with five slots.
This sounds super scrubby and I hesitate to put it in public but- I've always wondered what GSC would look like in the opposite direction- no Snorlax, no hidden power legendaries, and possibly no Curse.
@@YunaLuniThunder is enough of a punish isn’t it? Like the para risk exists. I think Felebi is the bigger problem. Ice bean does more to it then Thunder does to Ho-oh but it is still a 3 shot and celebi has leech plus recover.
Jynx is fucking obnoxious and IFM should be crucified for his sins, but proponents of banning it just want to retvrn to 2013 when they could justify their delusions of being good at the game.
I say this as gsc ou is the least played gen statistically. While I don't think rest talk is the only reason for this: I think it's a part of it. I don't think it would kill GSC but instead be pretty healthy as many mons still get reliable recovery or semi reliable recovery. Also a lot of large threats in gsc like Snorlax and Zapdos wouldn't essentially be mandatory placements on teams. Rby ou has an active community and lots of creators that talk about it frequently, especially ways to find innovation which certainly helps that format's imagine. Without rest talk gsc would be a lot more similar to most gens but this would allow us to focus more on the smaller things that make it unique
I look a look at mons in gsc for the last half an hour since writing this and I legitimately think Restless gsc would actually be a super fun tier as teams could be legitimately diverse and have options on them that couldn't exist in current ou. Many mons still get recovery moves so the tier becoming a hyper offense fest can't happen that easily. Explosion would actually get nerfed by no rest as defensive mons that would run rest would most likely need to try to run protect for recovery and to check for intentions. Offensive mons would also not be as oppressive as many won't get the opportunity to have a completely heal like they do now which would especially prevent curse sweepers from over running everything. Many mons from bl would be helped by all of this, Alakazam would become a fantastic cleaner/wall breaker that can even 1v1 zapdos and exeggutor (unless exeggutour uses explosion) Things like clefable and many grass types would be more common due to pp not being nearly as vital as a resource when factoring in things like moonlight and synthesis. We could actually see some speed boosting sweepers, I'm not talking batton pass, I'm talking about pokemon that can actually boost speed to end a game on there own terms with agility such as Kingrda and Jolteon. Gsc players in the comments while I understand that you all don't want the tier to be changed that much. At least think of the doors that can be opened up by a change like this
@@fastrockproductions9788 I don't think this would be good for the tier. Stuff like Nidoking and Jynx are already incredibly oppressive even with sleep absorbers. Also, toxic becomes a nightmare to deal with. Unless those defensive protect users you mentioned are skarmory, Venusaur, Steelix, or forretress, they'll get completely invalidated by just slapping toxic on the stuff they're supposed to counter. So Suicune, Umbreon, Snorlax, and Raikou are all completely unviable as defensive Pokemon. You can try heal bell, but you'll burn through them quick with only 8pp and so few good poison absorbers. 8pp recovery like moonlight is also terrible because it runs out so fast, so in practice, your only good walls are Skarm, leech protect Venusaur, miltank, Steelix, and blissey. Almost all of those are helpless/terrified against Nidoking/Gengar, and don't even get me started on Zapdos. Lax/raikou don't have the longevity to stop it anymore, so it completely runs over everything with whirlwind. You can also put toxic on it to make blissey's life complete hell. And something like toxic fp zam would probably necessitate a ttar or starmie on every team, because otherwise it runs over/outstalls everything. Good luck handling it with blissey when it sits on you and drains you of heal bell/soft boiled pp by spamming toxic and recover forever. The tier would basically be complete hell imo
It would help balance out Lax to add Celebi back (not fix it tho) but man the game would be very very slow. The famous old stall teams would come back from before with Celebi having leech/hesl bellz
That would be like unbending mewtwo in gen 1. You can pefer ubers but that doesn't mean we should bring mons down it means we should make ubers standard ad you said
Celebi wouldn’t be broken in Gen2 OU. Like in Gen 3 it would be very strong but nobody would consider it busted by any means. Celebi would help a lot to balance Lax and Zapdos. Zap would be forced to run HP ice which will help some of the grounds out with it not running HP water anymore really. LAX could be forced out by Celebi leech then switch to threat to Lax.
the games are from a tournament series jester and I had. we decided to make our nicknames as stupid as possible. let us know if we succeeded!
your nicknames is the type of humor I absolutely loathe so good job
Z0MGWTFBBQ for a Ho-Oh genuinely goes hard
The late late reveal of "Also Drive (2011)" was peak
I really liked copter de rofl
the nickname jokes whooshed past me
I vote to unban them because Ho-Oh is my favourite legendary and the Little Timmy factor is more important than any competitive reason
I'd play gsc forvever is hooh was OU
That's a legitimate reason, I think that was actually a factor in BKC's love for Gen 4 Ubers, the coolness factor of having essentially Pokémon gods duking it out.
Ho-Oh is just amazing. It's the peak of old school pokemon design.
That's the kind of aesthetic that would make you beg your mom to buy the cartridge as a kid.
@@larseunic 100%. Lugia and Ho-oh on those cartridges was just fucking peak
Little Timmy factor is why we even play comp 'Mons. Otherwise you'd just pick up a fighting game or chess or smth.
bro could make a 50 minute vid about how mewtwo should be unbanned from gen 1 ou and i would be nodding and going "mhm, true" the entire time
Mewtwo is not OP at all. He is so weak that he literary is his own best counter. That is like being afraid of your own shadow. Are you really afraid of a Pokemon that is so easy to beat you have 50% to beat him with himself?
Yes but also add stealth rock to gen 2 because it is a balanced move that would balance things out.
good thing unbanning celebi can help with time travel so we can let game 1997 game freak know about stealth rock!!
I think bringing back both Ho-Oh and Celebi ends up making Ho-Oh insanely difficult to break. Spikes Immune with 32 Recover PP with Heal Bell support from Celebi sounds nightmareish. Most answers to Ho-Oh easily get worn down by spikes and status.
I think it would warp the teambuilder a bit much, though I'm all for Tar being better (specifically RestTar)
I could be wrong, but those are my first impressions.
Yeah I think the reasoning for bringing them down is "well they're not any more broken than Snorlax", but that's not exactly convincing lmao
Bringing back Celebi alone would be more balancing. Bringing back both is too much. Celebi would make Snorlax a lot more manageable.
Bringing them both back would not be okay in the slightest. Introducing one but not the other would be a lot less crazy. I think celebi would be the healthier thing to unleash in the tier. Even then, it's a mythical with 100 stats across the board in a game with EVs maxed out. It's gonna be hard to kill, and it will also hit decently hard back.
you're right. snorlax really is the Drive (2011) of GSC OU
ngl the idea of GSC ubers becoming standard is fucking with my head now
specifically bc it creates an UU tier with Suicune, Jynx and Starmie but no good electrics (and Machamp/Nido too in case electabuzz gets any ideas)
Suicune would be in with the Ubers surely right?? I’ve never known it to be completely unviable in that tier but at the same time I haven’t played it in a while
Jolteon would be UU for sure, considering the tier would be a bit like OU but without zapdos/raikou/lax, jolteon would be pretty nuts
@@jacksonpolley711 I'm going off the ubers viability rankings for this hypothetical and Suicune does not make the cut there ( I think its C+)
@@andersonzl13 Jolteon is an A rank Pokémon in GSC Ubers so OU would take it too in this hypothetical
I would agree with GSC Ubers being the standard tier, but if someone thinks GSC OU is slow then they haven't seen Baton Pass/Mean Look teams.
I had a massive comment but then an ad made the comment go away when I tried to skip it.
I think gsc is a tier that many people don't like to pay or find enjoyable to ladder, due to the pace of the tier and how many games are built upon rest talk and explosion. Not bad entirely but it can be a drag to ladder when a game comes down to two awake raikou spamming sleep talk to conserve rest pp.
I do wonder how a test tournament without sleep talk or rest + no lovely kiss would genuinely go as it might legitimately make things more interesting to pay for the average person.
Like Zapdos wouldn't be annoying to deal with or over powered if it couldn't constantly rest. Meaning people would have to use it conservatively.
@@fastrockproductions9788 spot on. Its every single gsc tier too. I hate sleep talk combined with how bulky everything is.
copter de rofl, what a trilogy. Ryan Gosling's performance in the films was nothing short of brilliant, as expected.
22:35
Not a fan of modifying the recover pp to something impossible to replicate on cartridge. I think 20 would be better, since that is just the default before pp ups. I'm not sure this reduction would actually be necessary, but I think that is a better point to start the discussion at anyway. Thank you friend.
Modifying recover PP is easy on cart, just start a battle with 20 or 16 PP. You can do that in Gen 2.
is there a reason why lugia and mew aren't considered as well? ive never seen much discussion on them being allowed in gsc ou, are they just that much better?
Mew can use any move and 100 stats across the board, with the power level relatively lower in OU than Ubers, it would be less of a jack-of-all-trades and more of a master of all in GSC OU.
As for Lugia, it's insane bulk and probably Aeroblast being absurdly strong flying STAB, especially in a tier with basically none. Accounting for that alone would throw a giant wrench into the meta.
Adding a psychic lax is funny as hell. It basically would do anything it wants set wise like Lax. It would be auto include on every team like Lax and the only way to beat it would be to have 2-3 mons dedicated to beating its core sets like we do for Lax now.
@@BiggerK Aeroblast can miss and it only having a measly 8pp means that it would be highly exploiteable and highly resistable by the rocks too.
Celebi is so gooooodd. Hard to take down ! But a ho oh entry to OU would be sick!
if GSC unbanned Ho-Oh and Celebi, GSC Ubers would still have more exclusive pokemon in it than RBY Ubers right? There'd be Mew, Mewtwo, and Lugia still
Yes RBY Ubers is 2 and GSC Ubers would be 3.
Ho-Oh should be legal for UU I think
I think Ho Oh should drop to little cup I think I think
@@Cobalt957 What about PU Mew?
@@et34t34fdf its silly that thats a possibility in the current gen
thank you bkc, I've always wondered should ho-oh and/or celebi be unbanned in gsc ou?
Just speaking as an outsider who's never played GSC competitive it feels really weird that Snorlax is objectively the most broken mon in the game but isn't in Ubers.
It's like Snorlax has evolved past being a mon and morphed into just being a fundamental mechanic in OU lol
Like instead of everyone having access to a Mega or access to a Z-move or something everyone just has access to Snorlax
I dunno if that's a negative or a positive, but I do think shaking up the tiers would make more people interested in trying the meta out, if that's a goal they have anyway
Gen 2 players doing everything but banning Snorlax:
I do not know if belly drum failed you got +2 rather the failing that is really cool
This metagame would be much more balanced. Celebi would do its gen 3 thing to Snorlax while being easier to status because no natural cure unless you want to run heal bell.
Snorlax needs to be balanced more. It is extremely overcentralizing and dominant but shouldn’t be banned because it keeps more broken strategies in check.
Ho-oh may be broken though.
A meta for gsc, i would personaly find iteresting is to do a complex ban and ban hidden power on all electric types. I know that this does not directly impact the thing with jynx, but it would slow things down aswell, as it would take away one of zapdos best moves and give mons like golem and potentialy rhydon a bigger role in ou. Just something i would find interesting to test out in a tournament maybe.
This used to be the rule.
What percentage of the player pool would describe a kiss from Jynx as lovely? 👄
Newer gens have to ban so much shit because of power creep.
Meanwhile, older gens are unbanning things once thought to overpowered because of the overall lower power level. First Latios in DPP, now maybe Ho-Oh and Celebi. What a world.
i feel this video doesn’t talk enough about the casual gsc player base i would say i am apart of this group playing it for almost 2 years done some tourneys i support the idea of change
If Ho-oh wouldn’t be broken in GSC, what about ADV? Would it be similarly manageable due to the power creep between generations 2 and 3?
Fire/Flying is an excellent type in ADV OU. Unbanning Ho-oH would destroy the tier. No just no
I'd like celebi in our just so I could use a heal beller who isn't normal type
How to Fix GSC OU:
Allow a 2nd layer for Spikes.
Solves everything, is very good.
What do you think of the argument that GSC Snorlax enables offense? I hear this argument whenever the idea of Laxless GSC gets discussed, but I'm not sure how much I buy it, especially in an also Zapless metagame which would be new territory...
The alternate special walls are raikou and blissey. Compared to those two, snorlax makes much more offensive progress each time it comes in. And special walls are high in value due to special threats being faster and more numerous than physical threats in GSC. (Meaning in laxless most teams would still run a special wall.)
opinion before watching the video: while Ho-Oh could be tested in OU and it will be definitely top 5 after snorlax and either raikou or zapdos (zap is better than raikou because of the flying type. Playing Ho-Oh with zap implies two rock weaknesses in a meta where there aren't many popular switch ins for tyranitar); but Celebi? hell no
reason why I would be against both unban: recover
I will say that some mons that would get better include the following should this happen, give or take.
Articuno: Believe it or not this thing benefits from a Celebi metagame. Spikes immunity plus STAB Ice and the means to threaten freezes while also blocking them is nice utility. Wouldn't be amazing but would be better than it is now.
Charizard: Definitely becomes a lot better as it now has the means to play a lot more of a threat. Rock Slide really smacks Ho-oh and Celebi doesn't want to come anywhere near you.
Marowak: The slower pace of the game allows Marowak to be a lot more threatening. Heal Bell support from Celebi is also way more enabling for running rest than seen otherwise. Marowak also benefits from having the means to break bulkier teams with its wallbreaking prowess.
Heracross: While Heracross absolutely hates Ho-oh, to the point where it might starting running Hidden Power Rock for it, it otherwise gets better as well. Megahorn is one of the few tools to break Celebi for an OHKO assuming you survive the psychic. Still flawed but improves.
Suicune: Would be a water type that can stack up to Ho-oh regardless of the set because of its bulk. Benefits a lot from Jynx being less common and Zapdos being less oppressive.
Tyranitar: Definitely benefits from Ho-oh being more common as it takes it on better than a lot of other rock types. While Golem, and maybe Rhydon, definitely have reason to run rock slide they aren't exactly fond of switching into either Toxic or Hidden Power. Tyranitar on the other hand breaks Ho oh fairly well and also chips Celebi with both pursuit and crunch if able to get team support.
These are just some thoughts. Others I thought about but didn't list include Entei, Tentacruel, Clefable and maybe Tauros who is fast and packs rock slide.
A history of screens would be cool! I always feel like I see it much more on ladder than in competitive use
There's a reason why Ubers exists. Yes, the best Pokémon in Gen 2 Ubers is not only OU-legal, but also the best Pokémon in Gen 2 OU, but that's because Snorlax provides a stabilizing presence to both tiers. Allowing the Ubers mons into OU would mean that the OU mons will for the most part be outcompeted, and that's why Ubers is needed: To help make sure all Pokémon have a tier that they can do well in, for the most part.
This is CRAZY
What about Lugia?
The entire Meta would be stall if they unbanned Luigia. Heck that’s a big drawback of unbanning Celebi. Celebi stall is extremely strong as is.
As a spectator, I know my opinion has very little value but the current pace of GSC has been by far my favorite to watch, my only real problem with it was some of the more haxxy games that were mostly up to jynx. My main problem is that it just feels very risky to do such drastic tiering action on such a well established and mostly well liked tier, since it tends to be harder to get the community imput you get for something like a suspect test
BKC, AKA Breaded Kentucky Chicken. I too, am a fan of breaded chicken.
Ugh, idk, while im not exactly a good GCS OU player, I am a huge Ho-oh fan….lol but I’d almost hate to see it unbanned because in my mind that’s going to hurt Steelix’s viability a bit….he’d still be important as a Snorlax check on offensive teams, but the presence of Ho-oh will only make things harder for him
I could see a big rise in Golem usage if Ho-oh comes into play, even though Celebi will make things a bit harder there
I wish I could play Ubers GCS just to get a feel of what that’s like….im just guessing teams will be a lot more predictable lol, probably boring to an extent
I suck at GSC, but I feel like leaving it alone is probably for the best despite Snorlax and Zapdos being so ridiculous
He really is stall’s last defense in the war
My question is why dont we just start splashing RestTalk Moltres onto teams more often? Its not nearly as bulky as Ho-Oh but it has equal power and virtually equal bulk to Zapdos who dominates the tier. It has a worse defensive typing sure, but being able to come in on Jynx barring a freeze solves that problem too. I think its pretty underexplored
When you're unbanning ho-oh and celebi, why not unban lugia too? I always perceived it as weaker than ho-oh
A general shake up sounds fun. With something this old, no reason we can't mess with things every like... 6 months. Have fun with it, ya know?
unban mega mewtwo Y and Jinx issue is solved
The only argument for Ho-Oh and/or Celebi being unbanned in GSC OU I know of that's worth anything is that Snorlax is mandatory in OU. There's so little counterplay against it that you're basically only making a team with five slots.
I don't many people think that's much of an issue given how zapdos and even cloyster to an extent are mandatory. That's half your team
@@evilcow666 So now your teams will always have to be Snorlax/Zap/Cloyster/Celebi/Ho-oh... welp, we get one actual flex slot.
@@Lobster222Cloyster can be replaced imo. Zappos is a must include now a days. Zappos is as integral to any team as Lax.
4 slot metagame.
Unbanning ho-oh/celebi doesn't make Snorlax any less mandatory though
I think this is a DPP Latias + Salamance dilemma: Together they are too strong, one getting through though could make things interesting.
This sounds super scrubby and I hesitate to put it in public but- I've always wondered what GSC would look like in the opposite direction- no Snorlax, no hidden power legendaries, and possibly no Curse.
I would just be sad to see Nidoking unviable
Could it afford to slide in rock coverage for Ho oh?
@@YunaLuniThunder is enough of a punish isn’t it? Like the para risk exists. I think Felebi is the bigger problem. Ice bean does more to it then Thunder does to Ho-oh but it is still a 3 shot and celebi has leech plus recover.
@@dylanf3108 yea celebi is the larger issue
@@dylanf3108thunder is only a 4hko. Definitely not enough, although the para chance is a little spooky
@@alexbrittonfilms That’s not correct I calculated it.
It’s a small player base I can’t blame them for not risking it.
Celebi would be a good way to balance the metagame tbh.
foreshadowed!
So... we unban Celebi and Ho-Oh, ban Snorlax?
There are 2 options unban celebi or ban snorlax and ban hp ice on zapdos and raikou
Yo BKC why did you forfeit so early?
They should ban Ariados from gsc OU
Zapdos can't break Celebi with hp ice, would it actually consider drill peck for this one match-up?
Peck would be universally run imo. Celebi would be a top 3 Pokémon in usage.
Zap would always run
Electric move
HP move
Peck
@@dylanf3108 That would hurt Zapdos in the rankings, i think, its resttalk set is great, allowing it to stick around with its good bulk and typing.
I like Ho-oh so I agree they should be unbanned
It's better than nothing. A better option would be to ban a slew of OU Pokemon to Uber including Snorlax.
We are here discussing unbanning Ho-oh. BAN FUCKING SNORLAX. Ban Zapdos, Jynx, and whoever else you think you need.
noob take
this user does not play gsc
Jynx is fucking obnoxious and IFM should be crucified for his sins, but proponents of banning it just want to retvrn to 2013 when they could justify their delusions of being good at the game.
Tyranitar already has gen 3… you want him to be top tier in another gen?
Bo-Koh Celebanned :(
I would honesty like a test of gsc without rest. Not to replace it but as an experiment to see how people would enjoy it compared to current ou
I say this as gsc ou is the least played gen statistically. While I don't think rest talk is the only reason for this: I think it's a part of it.
I don't think it would kill GSC but instead be pretty healthy as many mons still get reliable recovery or semi reliable recovery. Also a lot of large threats in gsc like Snorlax and Zapdos wouldn't essentially be mandatory placements on teams.
Rby ou has an active community and lots of creators that talk about it frequently, especially ways to find innovation which certainly helps that format's imagine.
Without rest talk gsc would be a lot more similar to most gens but this would allow us to focus more on the smaller things that make it unique
I look a look at mons in gsc for the last half an hour since writing this and I legitimately think Restless gsc would actually be a super fun tier as teams could be legitimately diverse and have options on them that couldn't exist in current ou. Many mons still get recovery moves so the tier becoming a hyper offense fest can't happen that easily. Explosion would actually get nerfed by no rest as defensive mons that would run rest would most likely need to try to run protect for recovery and to check for intentions.
Offensive mons would also not be as oppressive as many won't get the opportunity to have a completely heal like they do now which would especially prevent curse sweepers from over running everything. Many mons from bl would be helped by all of this, Alakazam would become a fantastic cleaner/wall breaker that can even 1v1 zapdos and exeggutor (unless exeggutour uses explosion)
Things like clefable and many grass types would be more common due to pp not being nearly as vital as a resource when factoring in things like moonlight and synthesis. We could actually see some speed boosting sweepers, I'm not talking batton pass, I'm talking about pokemon that can actually boost speed to end a game on there own terms with agility such as Kingrda and Jolteon.
Gsc players in the comments while I understand that you all don't want the tier to be changed that much. At least think of the doors that can be opened up by a change like this
@@fastrockproductions9788 I don't think this would be good for the tier. Stuff like Nidoking and Jynx are already incredibly oppressive even with sleep absorbers. Also, toxic becomes a nightmare to deal with. Unless those defensive protect users you mentioned are skarmory, Venusaur, Steelix, or forretress, they'll get completely invalidated by just slapping toxic on the stuff they're supposed to counter. So Suicune, Umbreon, Snorlax, and Raikou are all completely unviable as defensive Pokemon. You can try heal bell, but you'll burn through them quick with only 8pp and so few good poison absorbers.
8pp recovery like moonlight is also terrible because it runs out so fast, so in practice, your only good walls are Skarm, leech protect Venusaur, miltank, Steelix, and blissey. Almost all of those are helpless/terrified against Nidoking/Gengar, and don't even get me started on Zapdos. Lax/raikou don't have the longevity to stop it anymore, so it completely runs over everything with whirlwind. You can also put toxic on it to make blissey's life complete hell. And something like toxic fp zam would probably necessitate a ttar or starmie on every team, because otherwise it runs over/outstalls everything. Good luck handling it with blissey when it sits on you and drains you of heal bell/soft boiled pp by spamming toxic and recover forever.
The tier would basically be complete hell imo
Ho-oh is just moltres with better movepool :)
They should never be unbanned because gsc Nidoking is probably the coolest offensive mon in history.
Absolutely not for either of them haha
ban hidden power it would fix a lot of the op stuff in the format
"copter de rofl"
Keep Celebi. Grass is weak in this gen
There are so many water, ground and electric types in OU
Zapdos, Raikou, cloyster, golem, steelix, and ttar would disagree
BKC
Celebi no Ho-Oh maybe
Celebi yes, Ho-Oh nty.
what the fuck does Z0MBWTFBBQ mean?
yea
yuh uh nuh uh uh
Grat idea, lets get the Uber pokemons into OU, since people are afraid to get the other Uber Pokemon out of it
Nice bait
Please dear god no.
It would help balance out Lax to add Celebi back (not fix it tho) but man the game would be very very slow. The famous old stall teams would come back from before with Celebi having leech/hesl bellz
celebi was a mistake
W h a t
That would be like unbending mewtwo in gen 1. You can pefer ubers but that doesn't mean we should bring mons down it means we should make ubers standard ad you said
Celebi wouldn’t be broken in Gen2 OU. Like in Gen 3 it would be very strong but nobody would consider it busted by any means.
Celebi would help a lot to balance Lax and Zapdos. Zap would be forced to run HP ice which will help some of the grounds out with it not running HP water anymore really. LAX could be forced out by Celebi leech then switch to threat to Lax.
no
seeing a lot of Lactose Intolerant people in this comment section.
#FreeJynx