Hybrid systems is the way to the future for sailboats! Thank you for being bold and incorporating it in your brand new boat, there are many of us around the world who listen to what you say and do!
@@annsheridan12 It is not a viable longterm solution for us as a species. And as a sailor most of the time you use your engine is in and around port, used only short times. It is when used in a cold engine diesel is a problem because a cold engine is a dirty engine and if you can use electric power for the short hauls it saves a lot on both fuel and enviroment. This is where the hybrid is so good, bbecause it can run on both electricity and diesen, elec for the shortstuff and diesel for the long haul if you are stuck in a dead zone or such.
@@annsheridan12 Because as demand for it decreases, the cost will increase. The EU is banning diesel cars. A lot of the world will follow suit. Less cars = less diesel needed. Another thing - all it takes is a war in the 'wrong' country and the price of oil can double or triple. OPEC+ are also intent on keeping the price of oil high so they will throttle production to keep demand higher than supply = higher price. So even if overall global demand for oil goes down, all OPEC+ has to do is ensure that this decreased demand is slightly higher than supply and it raises prices.
Great video very insightful and well explained. We were happy to welcome you to our production facility and we are also very excited to see what Super B batteries can do for you guys 😎
This was very informative! I don't need very sophisticated batteries for my 20 foot sailboat, but it is still great to learn at least a little about larger boat battery systems.
Wonderfully informative! I look forward to seeing how your hybrid system works and how you integrate it into your daily sailing. You've made my day! Thanks!
great video! I’m a sailor and homeowner who just had a 5.6KW solar panel and a 20Kw battery system installed. I agree with other comments about the need for thermal management of your pack. My batteries are in my basement and have no thermal management as there are no requirements for the kind of instant full-throttle response that a warm battery provides. I’m still on the grid so my system controller (Enphase) pulls from the grid whenever power requirements spike faster than the batteries can respond. You’ll need a similarly reliable system unless the batteries are just for diesel back-up. I look forward to knowing how you plan to charge them too. Cheers!
Thanks much. The Super B batteries look very well engineered and assembled. It looks like they're using CALB cells, which have a very good reputation. (CALB is one of the major battery/cell manufacturers in China.)
Hi. I saw that they don't use torx moment to drew the screws. And also i saw some fingerprints on the aluminium plates. That means that there could be som corrosion in time later. Because some person have sweat fingers. That means acid. I have very good experience in Swiss High quality factory. And i saw many problem zones. Stay well. Regards from Switzerland ❤
The screw drivers are torque sensing. Agree about the fingerprints, but probably doesn't matter too much. The fingerprints will still be there in 20 years, and the batteries will probably work about the same as new.
Finally! The best video I’ve seen showing a great product that uses bus bars for connections between cells. I think you just sold me on this particular mfgr to replace my Natervolt AGMs. Two questions for the mfgr are: 1. What is the bus temp at a charge rate of 100amps? 2. Is there an option for a redundant BMS as I see it as a single point of failure.
I have watched a sailing video where lightening has struck a sailboat. The batteries stopped working. When crew checked they found the BMS was bad but battery cells were still good. Crew changed BMS with one from another battery on hand and got boat systems working again. To do that crew had to cut top from battery case to access BMS, then reseal. It seems to me the SuperB battery has the BMS screwed on the top. So if damaged with lightening the BMS could be replaced. If spare BMS is on board. I like that.
The freeze frame at the end of the video shows all battery blocks without any space in between. Under real usage conditions I would place them about a half inch apart and provide forced air circulation around them for easier thermal management. I would even include the battery in the heating system for sailing in colder climates. At this stage of the build it might still be possible at moderate cost. I own an electric scooter using similar battery technology (48V but just 2kWh). It performs well at 20°C battery temperature and above. At 10°C there is already a significant drop in performance, and below water freezing temperature the battery is nearly useless.
Your scooter uses a different chemistry. LiFePo4 likes it warm. In fact, no charging is allowed in freezing conditions. Also, LiFePo4 is not prone to fire like cobalt based Lithium batteries.
These batteries may be more expensive at the initial installation, but once you figure in the added safety features ,dependability and longevity you not only are safer for your peace of mind but also your safety. I've always believed you get what you pay for and these batteries seem to hit all the points that are the most important . Safety and reliability. I really like the welded unions compared to the traditional methods of nuts and buss bars that work loose over time .
@@annsheridan12 Mining coal, is a one shot deal, when it's gone mine more. The processing of lithium is changing to meet stricter standards, but is a work in progress. There are now a few companies that recycle the different cells, so the emissions footprint is reducing. More recyclers are in the pipeline. Still a work in progress, but what isn't. If anyone figures there is no growing pains in an industry, they better get a grip.
@@annsheridan12 Yep, for now, they will not go away, but will reduce over time. Anyone who thinks they are here at the same level for all time, well, I have some land in Florida and a few bridges in NYC, that would be just right for them.😎
Paul: I did not see any heating pads inside the battery case, how will you keep them above zero C to avoid charging damage? You did say you were heading into the northern waters and it has been known to get cold up there. Larry Se
They look well made although at 5.40 it seems like they have a mix of a steel bolt and tin/aluminium, in a salt air environment wouldn't that be at risk of galvanic corrosion over time. I guess as long as the seals hold it isn't an issue.
I wonder if they have a big storage battery banks so when they charge it comes from battery banks and when discharged it goes into battery banks. would save them money in the long run.
👍 what a wealth of information. Next, sometime soon, will be how to maintain the energy needed to maintain 💯 %. As you well know ☀️ for solar cells is NOT always available, nor is water current... especially at dockside or at anchor. Charging the batteries via the engine, for hours, is NOT a good idea either. ? Generator ?
I am sure the electric engine will also act as an efficient and powerful generator. As well designed as everything looks, I expect in not too hot climate it should be possible to charge the battery bank from less than 20% to 80% in 2 hours. by running the combustion engine.
So they are not Victron certified but at least they have a CAN bus to access battery information. Are they able to control your MPPTs like smart batteries do?
With the electric propulsion system and the extra batteries, what is the increased weight and cost compared to a standard diesel propulsion system ? There must be a fairly high extra expense as well…
impressed, dutch are onto it. do you know what other brands are DNV cert? lots of marine elec installers say dont mix branded components, how are you going to treat this philosophy?
At the moment lithium Fe blade cells are about the safest commercial cells available. ....they are also more robust and most stable.... As alternative chemistries like Na Sulpher and Al ..come into use we can not only escape The Li mining trap but also the other rare earth metals.. They are also cheaper more widely available and safer and if they get them right will outstrip lithium based cells.. Even reducing the need for copper in cells/batteries and motors is important to reduce the environmental impact. The Na cells are already going into the first vehicles ...
Have you heard yet whether or not the DNV certification will make getting insurance easier or not? Last time we were insurance shopping for our cruising cat I was surprised to find out that there are still underwriters who will not insure vessels with lithium batteries. The fact that there is now a standard for use in the commercial shipping world would make me think that this should not be an issue for long...but I was just curious if you’ve thought of this factor when it comes time to insure your new boat?
Pantaenius - one of the biggest boat insurance companies in the world - posted an article that LiFePOs are in no regard any more dangerous than lead acid batteries and when installed correctly do not increase the risk at all. So the whole topic is not that interesting any more. Get a really good battery (no - don‘t buy EVE cells and a Daly BMS… 😏) and that‘s it. 🤗
There is already a lithium standard in ABYC and ISO. If you are a commercial vessel there is the additional standard mention here. They don't mention how they satisfy the ABYC standard for an audible alarm prior to BMS shutdown. They also use passive balancing. Active balancing is far better. Passive balancers use mV to burn off amps from the highest volt cells. Active balance moves the amps from the highest cell to the lowest at Amp level not mA level.They also don't compress the cells. Every major cell manufacturer advices to compress cells. It's worth about an extra 1000 cycles on the life of the battery. On drop in batteries like these with the BMS in the battery case, heat is going to be an issue at high loads. The cells got hot at the positive terminal creating a temperature gradient across the cell. Add in a hot BMS and no ventilation and you have reduced life expectancy especially if using the cells for motive power where high loads exist for an hour or two
Running electric motors from a generator with battery pack is between 25-30 % more fuel efficient than running direct. You can also hydrogenate under sail.
It's more efficient to drive a shaft directly from a diesel than to go through a generator and electric motor. Electric motors are highly efficient but do have some losses which simply don't happen with a mechanically direct drive.
@@LoanwordEggcorn Im afraid thats not true because the ICE engine is seldom running at its best ..even if you keep it maintained well look up this DIY proof of concept logging truck here on U tube by the Edison trucking company its called Topsy 😉🧙♂️ There are also dozens of Ice generator e powered boats and ships railway locos and heavy earth movers that use this approach and have done for decades because it gives many advantages not least around a 30% fuel saving .. the introduction of a modest size battery pack lets you operate fossil fuel free for hours if needed and allows you to regen under sail or braking on land and store solar or wind generator power . The term is Stoichiometric optimum... basically ICE engines dont like being made to run outside of this rev range and under changing loads. New light compact motor efficient rotary or opposed free piston generator multi fuel ICE motors like the liquid piston design or others only have to generate electricity at their... happy place ... the simpler more powerful torque laden sient e motor driving through a shaft or direct from a submerged pod doesnt care where the energy comes from or being stopped started run at silly speeds and flicked between forward and reverse plus the direct drive ICE cannot regenerate.. 🌍🧙♂️🌏 Theres a problem putting permanent magnet e motors between the ICE engine and the gearbox...why bother 🤷🏻♂️..or the drive.. and thats heat and vibration can cause degradation of the permanent magnets .. But there are alternative motors using no rare earths or even copper in their construction ... or you can stick a engine thats 20% of the size and quieter smoother cheaper and easier to maintain anywhere you like and only run it when its absolutely needed and still save on diesel. Its the way a lot of the Euro boat builders are going ....not just because of the pollution problems.
LFP batteries seem to be replacing LNMC (lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt) batteries that have had dangerous dendrite issues and fires, not to mention troublesome mining histories. This applies to electric vehicles and stationary power storage associated with wind and solar farms. Sailing is a natural for solar + wind and safe LFP battery storage. I wonder if solar panels, wind turbines and impeller generators can be expanded and matched with bigger battery packs and balanced to offer a major reduction in the consumption of diesel. I really like the specs and quality control standards offered by this company. It's important to note, though, that very advanced R&D out of China has now started down other battery chemistry roads, and sodium is now entering the field. I heard somewhere that a hybrid sodium-lithium battery has much more energy density per kg, therein more punch for the same weight as LFP batteries. If this tech matures well, then that may have very significant ramifications for longer range marine electric drive and more zero emission power generation and storage capabilities for the onboard electrical systems. Perhaps diesel generators will eventually be seen strictly as back up.
Did he mention where the cells are manufactured? Also does the BMS have low temperature protection? Looks like you spent around $90 grand or so on batteries.
MONEY MONEY MONEY !!! Great Idea, i hope you get a SUITABLE Electric Motor for Moving a Big Ship like yours ! Also you need a good shaft to connect it ! Also you need an awesome Charing Devices like panels, properlers, and maybe a HYDRO-Charger aswell ????? p.s: did you know that if you DISCHARGE + CHARGE your LIFEPO4 Batteries, in THEORY you have an INFINITE POWER SUPPLY, done it the CORRECT way you CRUISING SPEED will added additional avarage +2 to +5 KNOTS without ANY MONEY Burining though you DIESEL TANK (FOSILE ENERGY) which MAKES your VASLE a CAPABLE SEEPIDY Sail yacht in copareson to others YACHTS !!!
I found 340Ah for €4200 and I guess when you buy 15 it's cheaper though they only need 10 33kg X 10 though is still 330kg add the various ancillaries too. As for reliability some guys missed that this is a serial hybrid with a diesel engine and it's a sailing yacht anyway.
The cheap secret to LifePo4 24v and 48v batteries... build your own or buy used medical lifepo4 batteries with bms already and hook bus bars (high amperage) up to it if you want to use for propulsion. 1/4", 1/2", 1", 2" copper pipe works well for bus bars.
Did I miss the welding on the battery he assembled? We weld our cells together then proceed to bolt them together on camera.... while this is a well organized factory it looks like they are assembling Chinese cells and components not actually manufacturing their own battery.
What he did not say is, who manufactures the individual 26650 batteries. If the source is the same Chinese company that manufactures them for EVERYONE, then the different companies are nothing more than assembler and packagers of these individual cells and marketing them as their own. They may have different colors, cases, labels and maybe even terminals. There maybe differences whether they are soldered or connected to each other by a different method. An argument could be made whether soldering electronics in a marine environment is better than crimping the connections. There is a good reason why almost all electric terminals on Marine Panels All wires are terminated with a crimped terminal and never soldered.
Yes, but regardless of crimped or soldered oe welded there is an obstacle. To have a crimped connection the wore needs to be affixed to the cell somehow. I do not know of an individual cell that has a lug for a friction fit. Crimped all the wire ends you want but they all originate at a spot weld or solder joint at the individual cell.
They aren’t even using the 26650 here. And they are manufactured in many countries including Japan. There isn’t one factory for the world. And they are welding the battery connections at super b not soldering them.
In boats lithium iron phosphate is the standard for safety reasons. I don’t believe they come in 26650 form factor. For boats the cells are usually prismatic construction like the ones shown in the video, not cylindrical.
Super B makes different kinds of batteries. The cylindrical cells are used in the (combustion engine) starter battery format. The marine storage format uses prismatic cells.
Are you sponsored by Super-B? Are they giving you a discount in exchange for this coverage? This video feels like an advert... I feel like a lot of your videos are like that... You should make it more clear if this is / is not the case.
BTW I'm not suggesting that creating content in order to get discounts on gear is a bad thing... I'm just saying it would be great if you were more clear about the relationship.
Lol!!! You’re joking right! With this system they not only have enough energy storage to use with solar but also they use the diesel mainly for propulsion and in some cases not much! It saves a lot of money plus they can use the electricity with many other devices directly on board
Thank you for the video! But a battery-powered yacht does not look safe in the ocean far from civilization. Diesel sounds much more reliable! What is more important - to be technologically advanced and environmentally friendly or just to survive in the ocean on a yacht?
I suspect because they don't intend to use battery propulsion for any extended time (beyond manoeuvring from dock/buoy/anchor). My guess is that they expressed it as running range/time for simplicity within this episode. Paul explains their thinking and energy requirement calculation really well in a previous episode ("Building an ALUMINUM Sailboat Pt 8"). Essentially, their chosen battery capacity allows them to manoeuvre, cook, heat water, etc, without turning the engine/generator on as frequently - while relying on sails to cover ground. I don't doubt that there's an element of choosing newer technologies to generate more interesting content (and I imagine they'd be quite open about that). But interesting videos is why we're here (probably 🙂).
@@grigorbrowning my question is why all the highly expensive alternative energy systems when diesel will do the job efficiently as it has for generations.
@@annsheridan12 The idea is not to have a generator onboard. The diesel can provide propulsion only, charge only and both at the same time. The electric drive can provide propulsion and can be used to charge the battery underway. You get real redundancy with this setup. Now If you count in the solar power, you can see how this would create much more safety then just relying on a diesel for power and propulsion. Also, electric drive is almost silent, no diesel smell and you don't have to run your cold engine for a short time ever again.
For me, it's a matter of risk vs. reward. Like any electrical component, one of those BMS control systems will fail one day. Then what happens? Have you seen any videos of what happens when a lithium battery fails? The resultant explosion/fire is instantaneous and about impossible to extinguish. While lead-acid batteries offer fewer watts of energy, they are not only way less expensive, they don't erupt into flames either. Are the benefits of lithium batteries worth the risk (however small) of a catastrophic failure? Where back-up battery systems are required at NASA (at the launch pad for instance) they do not use lithium. They use large banks of lead acid batteries. And it's not because they are cheaper.
@@laurapitre5797 Obviously. But I do know there is at least one car manufacturer who has warned people to park their electric cars outside so if it bursts into flames in the middle of the night it won't burn the house down.
different kind of lithium batteries. these are iron-based and extremely stable. iron-based lithium batteries have been used for residential solar storage - including at my house - for years without incident.
@@gdholmfirth The LG cells used in the Chevy Bolt are not Lithium Iron Phosphate, which almost never have thermal runaway. BMS electronics are highly reliable. Vastly more reliable than something like an internal combustion engine, for example.
Sorry for say the truth. But you have batterys for many many years i hope. Just wanted to make you and all aware of it. Love your setup. Am in to generator el engine my self for charge and battery drive my propeller whit battery time to time my self ❤❤❤ And do traveling european waterways now for litle over a year stright
340 amp ?? I have much better cells in one 24volt box. 450 amp. Another on 450amp more is on its way to me. And i am motoring down european waterways all over Europe. But will get a generator el engine on top of gear box 20kw. For generator for fast charge ore just load up to 80% when start to drive. I wonder on an el motor whit regen on. Thats powerfull anof to push 12 tons. But can be use this 20kw el engine over gearbox from battery on slow going el power. But have to lock in to how this is for an famely holland stealboat. Have bean gone over 1 year allready. And have 4 solar on 320w x4 as a roof over flybridge on my older yacht. Think this is to small whit 20kw battery ore can i make it whit double battery ?? Never drive at full speed. Max half. Is there any calculating on this ??? 48v ofcorse and have 140hp penta engine thats 2 big anyway. So can easy drive and recharge and drive like normal at 20kw. What you think about this ? Any tipp ore trix for me ??? The shame of this cells them use, is them not passed the EV-INDUSTRY. Sad to say it. I am from norway and have worked much whit DNV. Det norske Veritas. But them have bean 10 year behinde in litium battery sadley. Problem whit this cells you have there. Is not passed test for EV, so it is like an left overs if you understand? Dont to be rude ore any. Just for educate from manufactures in china. Leftovers have as allways up to 5 6000 cyclus. But whats that ?? EV batterys have 35 to 45 000 cycluses. So differans is enormus
But ofcorse if use smart and never hard. Them last some year. Take any manufactures of lithium and ask whats happening to leftovers cells. 😂😂😂 Sorry to be the 1 telling you. But almost 45% of battery dont passes the test. EV industri are heavy test. And when not passed them take 4 cells at about same volt and trow in plastic and trow on bms and selling whit so and so capasity. Thats why allways ask for test for EV industri as all battery gets made for. Every of 20 manufactures in china i have bean i contact whit all says the same. Some try to hide it from start. But say it like it is. So i did buy EV battery cells from VW E-GOLF. BUT ALL VOLKSWAGEN HAVE SAME SAME TEST. And never ever dissapoint you❤ Some that all shuld be aware of. But now so many Chanel shows this and spreading the info. So soon all gets passed test batterys. And same price only double better cells ore batterys ore how you want to say it. Is this boat now in use ??? How long cyclus them was rated for ????
![เปิดบ้านสุดหรู "เเจ็ค the ghost" ลั่นถ้าป๋องกพลลำบากผมเลี้ยงเอง!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1xbW4vULqGc/mqdefault.jpg)
![ลักพาตัว เอาลูกเอิร์นกลับมา...!! [เอิร์นไดเม่]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/f4NVKlZ5qkk/mqdefault.jpg)
Hybrid systems is the way to the future for sailboats! Thank you for being bold and incorporating it in your brand new boat, there are many of us around the world who listen to what you say and do!
Why? What is wrong with diesel?
@@annsheridan12 It is not a viable longterm solution for us as a species. And as a sailor most of the time you use your engine is in and around port, used only short times. It is when used in a cold engine diesel is a problem because a cold engine is a dirty engine and if you can use electric power for the short hauls it saves a lot on both fuel and enviroment. This is where the hybrid is so good, bbecause it can run on both electricity and diesen, elec for the shortstuff and diesel for the long haul if you are stuck in a dead zone or such.
@@klasandersson7522 why not a viable long term solution? Read “fossil Future “
@@annsheridan12 Because as demand for it decreases, the cost will increase. The EU is banning diesel cars. A lot of the world will follow suit. Less cars = less diesel needed.
Another thing - all it takes is a war in the 'wrong' country and the price of oil can double or triple.
OPEC+ are also intent on keeping the price of oil high so they will throttle production to keep demand higher than supply = higher price. So even if overall global demand for oil goes down, all OPEC+ has to do is ensure that this decreased demand is slightly higher than supply and it raises prices.
@@klasandersson7522 perfectly viable and must be 80% of our energy needs as electricity is only 20%.
Great video very insightful and well explained. We were happy to welcome you to our production facility and we are also very excited to see what Super B batteries can do for you guys 😎
Very interesting. An outstanding product, production line and QC. What a great choice for your vessel’s batteries.
Awesome batteries, thanks for sharing the overview of your planned battery bank!
This was very informative! I don't need very sophisticated batteries for my 20 foot sailboat, but it is still great to learn at least a little about larger boat battery systems.
Great video Paul & Sheryl. A must watch for anyone looking at a lithium battery system.
Wonderfully informative! I look forward to seeing how your hybrid system works and how you integrate it into your daily sailing. You've made my day! Thanks!
Thanks for sharing I learned a lot. It’s super B cool how they explained the way their battery is build up and kept safe. What a good promotion.
❤
Very interesting production, more on this topic please
lot of things to learn, thanks
Everything about this place is a thing of engineering beauty. I imagine each battery is not cheap.
Thanks!
Very nice guy's, I really like the concept that nothing in the eco system can be hotter then the battery cell. DNV and viewer Approved!
excellent patient video
Thanks very much
That's a huge battery system!
great video! I’m a sailor and homeowner who just had a 5.6KW solar panel and a 20Kw battery system installed. I agree with other comments about the need for thermal management of your pack. My batteries are in my basement and have no thermal management as there are no requirements for the kind of instant full-throttle response that a warm battery provides. I’m still on the grid so my system controller (Enphase) pulls from the grid whenever power requirements spike faster than the batteries can respond. You’ll need a similarly reliable system unless the batteries are just for diesel back-up. I look forward to knowing how you plan to charge them too. Cheers!
Very informative Keep up the good work.
Thanks much. The Super B batteries look very well engineered and assembled.
It looks like they're using CALB cells, which have a very good reputation. (CALB is one of the major battery/cell manufacturers in China.)
Very informative Keep up the good work.. Very interesting production, more on this topic please.
Hi. I saw that they don't use torx moment to drew the screws. And also i saw some fingerprints on the aluminium plates. That means that there could be som corrosion in time later. Because some person have sweat fingers. That means acid. I have very good experience in Swiss High quality factory. And i saw many problem zones. Stay well. Regards from Switzerland ❤
The screw drivers are torque sensing. Agree about the fingerprints, but probably doesn't matter too much. The fingerprints will still be there in 20 years, and the batteries will probably work about the same as new.
Great video again! Verry learnful thnx and greets from elzo
A great video. omg - Distant shires IV is going to have a huge amount of battery power. Thanks for sharing
good information
Very interesting thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
Looks like these guys know what they’re doing. I thinks you do well to buy from them!
Finally! The best video I’ve seen showing a great product that uses bus bars for connections between cells. I think you just sold me on this particular mfgr to replace my Natervolt AGMs. Two questions for the mfgr are: 1. What is the bus temp at a charge rate of 100amps? 2. Is there an option for a redundant BMS as I see it as a single point of failure.
Those batteries look like they are very well made.
The diesel-electric system is a very efficient one. I am looking forward to see how good yours will be in practice.
I have watched a sailing video where lightening has struck a sailboat. The batteries stopped working. When crew checked they found the BMS was bad but battery cells were still good. Crew changed BMS with one from another battery on hand and got boat systems working again. To do that crew had to cut top from battery case to access BMS, then reseal. It seems to me the SuperB battery has the BMS screwed on the top. So if damaged with lightening the BMS could be replaced. If spare BMS is on board. I like that.
I have missed some of these deep dives.. cant wait till you guys are back on the water... I have a Alpha beer waiting for you in the Ionian.
The freeze frame at the end of the video shows all battery blocks without any space in between. Under real usage conditions I would place them about a half inch apart and provide forced air circulation around them for easier thermal management. I would even include the battery in the heating system for sailing in colder climates. At this stage of the build it might still be possible at moderate cost. I own an electric scooter using similar battery technology (48V but just 2kWh). It performs well at 20°C battery temperature and above. At 10°C there is already a significant drop in performance, and below water freezing temperature the battery is nearly useless.
Your scooter uses a different chemistry. LiFePo4 likes it warm. In fact, no charging is allowed in freezing conditions. Also, LiFePo4 is not prone to fire like cobalt based Lithium batteries.
These batteries may be more expensive at the initial installation, but once you figure in the added safety features ,dependability and longevity you not only are safer for your peace of mind but also your safety.
I've always believed you get what you pay for and these batteries seem to hit all the points that are the most important . Safety and reliability. I really like the welded unions compared to the traditional methods of nuts and buss bars that work loose over time .
Don’t forget the environmental consequences if the mining and production as well as the cost.
@@annsheridan12 Mining coal, is a one shot deal, when it's gone mine more.
The processing of lithium is changing to meet stricter standards, but is a work in progress.
There are now a few companies that recycle the different cells, so the emissions footprint is reducing. More recyclers are in the pipeline. Still a work in progress, but what isn't.
If anyone figures there is no growing pains in an industry, they better get a grip.
@@carlthor91 fossil fuels are what make our civilization possible
@@annsheridan12 Yep, for now, they will not go away, but will reduce over time. Anyone who thinks they are here at the same level for all time, well, I have some land in Florida and a few bridges in NYC, that would be just right for them.😎
@@carlthor91 ass backwards, fossil fuels use will increase over time.
Nicee
This is going to get a lot of views.
quite informative, thanks for sharing. have you discussed with the battery manufacturer operating strategies to maximize battery longevity?
cheers
Paul: I did not see any heating pads inside the battery case, how will you keep them above zero C to avoid charging damage? You did say you were heading into the northern waters and it has been known to get cold up there. Larry Se
A great video, well explained with-out the look at me, look at me constantly, it is becoming annoying, we know how you look
I’m glad you enjoyed the video and explanations
EG4 life4 48V100amp $1300. UL and SAE WATERPROOF. Very easy to stack 4 or 5 in a rack and place in the boat fully warrantees 7 years and 7000 cycles
They look well made although at 5.40 it seems like they have a mix of a steel bolt and tin/aluminium, in a salt air environment wouldn't that be at risk of galvanic corrosion over time. I guess as long as the seals hold it isn't an issue.
I wonder if they have a big storage battery banks so when they charge it comes from battery banks and when discharged it goes into battery banks. would save them money in the long run.
Do you need some sort of cooling system in the battery storage area to keep the batteries from overheating?
Short answer is no, not for LiFePO4 chemistry.
Can we have more videos of the progress on the Orion, PLEASE 🙏
👍 what a wealth of information. Next, sometime soon, will be how to maintain the energy needed to maintain 💯 %. As you well know ☀️ for solar cells is NOT always available, nor is water current... especially at dockside or at anchor. Charging the batteries via the engine, for hours, is NOT a good idea either. ? Generator ?
I am sure the electric engine will also act as an efficient and powerful generator. As well designed as everything looks, I expect in not too hot climate it should be possible to charge the battery bank from less than 20% to 80% in 2 hours. by running the combustion engine.
So they are not Victron certified but at least they have a CAN bus to access battery information. Are they able to control your MPPTs like smart batteries do?
With the electric propulsion system and the extra batteries, what is the increased weight and cost compared to a standard diesel propulsion system ?
There must be a fairly high extra expense as well…
Battery costs are falling rapidly mostly due to electric vehicle economies of scale. Electric motors are already relatively inexpensive.
But where do the base battery packs come from?
A battery is a collection of multiple cells. The blue cells are CALB from China. Almost all LiFePO4 cells are currently made in china.
impressed, dutch are onto it.
do you know what other brands are DNV cert?
lots of marine elec installers say dont mix branded components, how are you going to treat this philosophy?
I think tilley hats should sponsor you guys. Only the finest people wear tilley hats! Canadian persnicketyness and so on...lol
What about cooling when you're drawing so much current continuously for an 18kw motor?
Cooling is largely a non issue for this battery chemistry and electric motors, both of which are highly efficient and don't generate much heat.
At the moment lithium Fe blade cells are about the safest commercial cells available. ....they are also more robust and most stable....
As alternative chemistries like Na Sulpher and Al ..come into use we can not only escape The Li mining trap but also the other rare earth metals..
They are also cheaper more widely available and safer and if they get them right will outstrip lithium based cells..
Even reducing the need for copper in cells/batteries and motors is important to reduce the environmental impact.
The Na cells are already going into the first vehicles ...
Have you heard yet whether or not the DNV certification will make getting insurance easier or not? Last time we were insurance shopping for our cruising cat I was surprised to find out that there are still underwriters who will not insure vessels with lithium batteries. The fact that there is now a standard for use in the commercial shipping world would make me think that this should not be an issue for long...but I was just curious if you’ve thought of this factor when it comes time to insure your new boat?
Pantaenius - one of the biggest boat insurance companies in the world - posted an article that LiFePOs are in no regard any more dangerous than lead acid batteries and when installed correctly do not increase the risk at all.
So the whole topic is not that interesting any more. Get a really good battery (no - don‘t buy EVE cells and a Daly BMS… 😏) and that‘s it. 🤗
There is already a lithium standard in ABYC and ISO. If you are a commercial vessel there is the additional standard mention here.
They don't mention how they satisfy the ABYC standard for an audible alarm prior to BMS shutdown. They also use passive balancing. Active balancing is far better. Passive balancers use mV to burn off amps from the highest volt cells. Active balance moves the amps from the highest cell to the lowest at Amp level not mA level.They also don't compress the cells. Every major cell manufacturer advices to compress cells. It's worth about an extra 1000 cycles on the life of the battery.
On drop in batteries like these with the BMS in the battery case, heat is going to be an issue at high loads. The cells got hot at the positive terminal creating a temperature gradient across the cell. Add in a hot BMS and no ventilation and you have reduced life expectancy especially if using the cells for motive power where high loads exist for an hour or two
😃👍👏👏👏
Running electric motors from a generator with battery pack is between 25-30 % more fuel efficient than running direct.
You can also hydrogenate under sail.
It's more efficient to drive a shaft directly from a diesel than to go through a generator and electric motor. Electric motors are highly efficient but do have some losses which simply don't happen with a mechanically direct drive.
@@LoanwordEggcorn
Im afraid thats not true because the ICE engine is seldom running at its best ..even if you keep it maintained well look up this DIY proof of concept logging truck here on U tube by the Edison trucking company its called Topsy 😉🧙♂️
There are also dozens of Ice generator e powered boats and ships railway locos and heavy earth movers that use this approach and have done for decades because it gives many advantages not least around a 30% fuel saving .. the introduction of a modest size battery pack lets you operate fossil fuel free for hours if needed and allows you to regen under sail or braking on land and store solar or wind generator power .
The term is Stoichiometric optimum... basically ICE engines dont like being made to run outside of this rev range and under changing loads.
New light compact motor efficient rotary or opposed free piston generator multi fuel ICE motors like the liquid piston design or others only have to generate electricity at their... happy place ... the simpler more powerful torque laden sient e motor driving through a shaft or direct from a submerged pod doesnt care where the energy comes from or being stopped started run at silly speeds and flicked between forward and reverse plus the direct drive ICE cannot regenerate.. 🌍🧙♂️🌏
Theres a problem putting permanent magnet e motors between the ICE engine and the gearbox...why bother 🤷🏻♂️..or the drive.. and thats heat and vibration can cause degradation of the permanent magnets ..
But there are alternative motors using no rare earths or even copper in their construction ...
or you can stick a engine thats 20% of the size and quieter smoother cheaper and easier to maintain anywhere you like and only run it when its absolutely needed and still save on diesel.
Its the way a lot of the Euro boat builders are going ....not just because of the pollution problems.
LFP batteries seem to be replacing LNMC (lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt) batteries that have had dangerous dendrite issues and fires, not to mention troublesome mining histories. This applies to electric vehicles and stationary power storage associated with wind and solar farms. Sailing is a natural for solar + wind and safe LFP battery storage. I wonder if solar panels, wind turbines and impeller generators can be expanded and matched with bigger battery packs and balanced to offer a major reduction in the consumption of diesel.
I really like the specs and quality control standards offered by this company. It's important to note, though, that very advanced R&D out of China has now started down other battery chemistry roads, and sodium is now entering the field. I heard somewhere that a hybrid sodium-lithium battery has much more energy density per kg, therein more punch for the same weight as LFP batteries. If this tech matures well, then that may have very significant ramifications for longer range marine electric drive and more zero emission power generation and storage capabilities for the onboard electrical systems. Perhaps diesel generators will eventually be seen strictly as back up.
Did he mention where the cells are manufactured? Also does the BMS have low temperature protection? Looks like you spent around $90 grand or so on batteries.
The cells appear to be CALB made in China.
Is it me or they are ahead of other batteries systems such as ''Battleborn'' for example?
Most are doing similar things inside the battery. About the only thing unique is the extra thermal sensor.
Super-B Epsilon 12V100Ah
1.731,88 €
MONEY MONEY MONEY !!! Great Idea, i hope you get a SUITABLE Electric Motor for Moving a Big Ship like yours ! Also you need a good shaft to connect it ! Also you need an awesome Charing Devices like panels, properlers, and maybe a HYDRO-Charger aswell ?????
p.s: did you know that if you DISCHARGE + CHARGE your LIFEPO4 Batteries, in THEORY you have an INFINITE POWER SUPPLY, done it the CORRECT way you CRUISING SPEED will added additional avarage +2 to +5 KNOTS without ANY MONEY Burining though you DIESEL TANK (FOSILE ENERGY) which MAKES your VASLE a CAPABLE SEEPIDY Sail yacht in copareson to others YACHTS !!!
How much is the 340Ah battery?
I found a price for a super b 210 ahr at $4423. Since they have 20 batteries, looks like around $88,000 for the bank. EGADS!
@@mr.e7022 yes .. rich fools have to pay a lot))))
I found 340Ah for €4200 and I guess when you buy 15 it's cheaper though they only need 10
33kg X 10 though is still 330kg add the various ancillaries too. As for reliability some guys missed that this is a serial hybrid with a diesel engine and it's a sailing yacht anyway.
The cheap secret to LifePo4 24v and 48v batteries... build your own or buy used medical lifepo4 batteries with bms already and hook bus bars (high amperage) up to it if you want to use for propulsion.
1/4", 1/2", 1", 2" copper pipe works well for bus bars.
Check out the fire happening at a lithium battery factory in NC as we speak.
EVE lifepo4 304ah 310ah lifepo4 cells 3.2v
1 pieces $122.35
8 pieces = 1000$ = 600ah/12v
Did I miss the welding on the battery he assembled? We weld our cells together then proceed to bolt them together on camera.... while this is a well organized factory it looks like they are assembling Chinese cells and components not actually manufacturing their own battery.
Almost all LiFePO4 cells are made in China.
You may not "need" DNV status, but I'll bet your insurance company will be happy about it. 🙂
What he did not say is, who manufactures the individual 26650 batteries. If the source is the same Chinese company that manufactures them for EVERYONE, then the different companies are nothing more than assembler and packagers of these individual cells and marketing them as their own. They may have different colors, cases, labels and maybe even terminals. There maybe differences whether they are soldered or connected to each other by a different method. An argument could be made whether soldering electronics in a marine environment is better than crimping the connections. There is a good reason why almost all electric terminals on Marine Panels All wires are terminated with a crimped terminal and never soldered.
Yes, but regardless of crimped or soldered oe welded there is an obstacle. To have a crimped connection the wore needs to be affixed to the cell somehow. I do not know of an individual cell that has a lug for a friction fit. Crimped all the wire ends you want but they all originate at a spot weld or solder joint at the individual cell.
They aren’t even using the 26650 here. And they are manufactured in many countries including Japan. There isn’t one factory for the world. And they are welding the battery connections at super b not soldering them.
In boats lithium iron phosphate is the standard for safety reasons. I don’t believe they come in 26650 form factor. For boats the cells are usually prismatic construction like the ones shown in the video, not cylindrical.
Super B makes different kinds of batteries. The cylindrical cells are used in the (combustion engine) starter battery format. The marine storage format uses prismatic cells.
batteries from China are the coolest)
Are you sponsored by Super-B? Are they giving you a discount in exchange for this coverage? This video feels like an advert... I feel like a lot of your videos are like that... You should make it more clear if this is / is not the case.
BTW I'm not suggesting that creating content in order to get discounts on gear is a bad thing... I'm just saying it would be great if you were more clear about the relationship.
I would rather just put a couple of liters diesel in my engine and save all the expense and complicated electrics.
Lol!!! You’re joking right! With this system they not only have enough energy storage to use with solar but also they use the diesel mainly for propulsion and in some cases not much! It saves a lot of money plus they can use the electricity with many other devices directly on board
Thank you for the video! But a battery-powered yacht does not look safe in the ocean far from civilization. Diesel sounds much more reliable! What is more important - to be technologically advanced and environmentally friendly or just to survive in the ocean on a yacht?
Like we say. They put some color of a donkey and sell it as a racehorse😂😂😂
I don’t understand why the extremely expensive battery propulsion for a minimum run time except virtue signaling.
Maybe they dont want to contribute to global warming?
I suspect because they don't intend to use battery propulsion for any extended time (beyond manoeuvring from dock/buoy/anchor). My guess is that they expressed it as running range/time for simplicity within this episode. Paul explains their thinking and energy requirement calculation really well in a previous episode ("Building an ALUMINUM Sailboat Pt 8"). Essentially, their chosen battery capacity allows them to manoeuvre, cook, heat water, etc, without turning the engine/generator on as frequently - while relying on sails to cover ground.
I don't doubt that there's an element of choosing newer technologies to generate more interesting content (and I imagine they'd be quite open about that). But interesting videos is why we're here (probably 🙂).
@@grigorbrowning my question is why all the highly expensive alternative energy systems when diesel will do the job efficiently as it has for generations.
@@annsheridan12 The idea is not to have a generator onboard. The diesel can provide propulsion only, charge only and both at the same time. The electric drive can provide propulsion and can be used to charge the battery underway. You get real redundancy with this setup. Now If you count in the solar power, you can see how this would create much more safety then just relying on a diesel for power and propulsion.
Also, electric drive is almost silent, no diesel smell and you don't have to run your cold engine for a short time ever again.
@@dajobra The☀️ is NOT always available in the North to charge the batteries, nor forward motion either 🙄
Wo ist da der Horror, das ist doch ganz normal, das bringt keinen um
For me, it's a matter of risk vs. reward. Like any electrical component, one of those BMS control systems will fail one day. Then what happens? Have you seen any videos of what happens when a lithium battery fails? The resultant explosion/fire is instantaneous and about impossible to extinguish. While lead-acid batteries offer fewer watts of energy, they are not only way less expensive, they don't erupt into flames either.
Are the benefits of lithium batteries worth the risk (however small) of a catastrophic failure? Where back-up battery systems are required at NASA (at the launch pad for instance) they do not use lithium. They use large banks of lead acid batteries. And it's not because they are cheaper.
Obviously you don't know much about lithium battery chemistries.
@@laurapitre5797 Obviously. But I do know there is at least one car manufacturer who has warned people to park their electric cars outside so if it bursts into flames in the middle of the night it won't burn the house down.
different kind of lithium batteries. these are iron-based and extremely stable. iron-based lithium batteries have been used for residential solar storage - including at my house - for years without incident.
@@gdholmfirth The LG cells used in the Chevy Bolt are not Lithium Iron Phosphate, which almost never have thermal runaway.
BMS electronics are highly reliable. Vastly more reliable than something like an internal combustion engine, for example.
Smart phones, smart batterys not sure any of this is worth it.
And also he touch the electronic part without any ESD security (Electro-Static-Discharge). Not so professional 😢😢😢
ESD doesn't really matter today due to ground planes in most circuit boards.
Made in china cell?
all componenents made in china, you can make your own bank much cheeper
Without the cert, insurance problems result.
Batteries in series increase voltage but not capacity. You might want to re-do your battery calculations
Sorry for say the truth. But you have batterys for many many years i hope.
Just wanted to make you and all aware of it.
Love your setup.
Am in to generator el engine my self for charge and battery drive my propeller whit battery time to time my self ❤❤❤
And do traveling european waterways now for litle over a year stright
340 amp ??
I have much better cells in one 24volt box. 450 amp.
Another on 450amp more is on its way to me.
And i am motoring down european waterways all over Europe.
But will get a generator el engine on top of gear box 20kw. For generator for fast charge ore just load up to 80% when start to drive.
I wonder on an el motor whit regen on. Thats powerfull anof to push 12 tons.
But can be use this 20kw el engine over gearbox from battery on slow going el power.
But have to lock in to how this is for an famely holland stealboat.
Have bean gone over 1 year allready.
And have 4 solar on 320w x4 as a roof over flybridge on my older yacht.
Think this is to small whit 20kw battery ore can i make it whit double battery ??
Never drive at full speed. Max half.
Is there any calculating on this ???
48v ofcorse and have 140hp penta engine thats 2 big anyway. So can easy drive and recharge and drive like normal at 20kw.
What you think about this ?
Any tipp ore trix for me ???
The shame of this cells them use, is them not passed the EV-INDUSTRY.
Sad to say it.
I am from norway and have worked much whit DNV. Det norske Veritas.
But them have bean 10 year behinde in litium battery sadley.
Problem whit this cells you have there. Is not passed test for EV, so it is like an left overs if you understand?
Dont to be rude ore any.
Just for educate from manufactures in china.
Leftovers have as allways up to 5 6000 cyclus.
But whats that ??
EV batterys have 35 to 45 000 cycluses.
So differans is enormus
But ofcorse if use smart and never hard. Them last some year.
Take any manufactures of lithium and ask whats happening to leftovers cells. 😂😂😂
Sorry to be the 1 telling you. But almost 45% of battery dont passes the test.
EV industri are heavy test.
And when not passed them take 4 cells at about same volt and trow in plastic and trow on bms and selling whit so and so capasity.
Thats why allways ask for test for EV industri as all battery gets made for.
Every of 20 manufactures in china i have bean i contact whit all says the same.
Some try to hide it from start. But say it like it is.
So i did buy EV battery cells from VW E-GOLF.
BUT ALL VOLKSWAGEN HAVE SAME SAME TEST.
And never ever dissapoint you❤
Some that all shuld be aware of.
But now so many Chanel shows this and spreading the info.
So soon all gets passed test batterys. And same price only double better cells ore batterys ore how you want to say it.
Is this boat now in use ???
How long cyclus them was rated for ????