I’m not a hater but I will get excited when I see these deployed commercially. I’ve been reading about battery breakthroughs for years but only very few actually make it to mass market. I hope it is successful.
Yeah. Most never make it out of the lab, although some do. It's also going to be difficult competing with CATL's new batteries, which by all accounts are amazing and they're already on the market it China with a US release at the end of this year. China has a big advantage right now.
The 4680 contributes to the rigidity of the frame of the car, and the metal surface helps cool the battery. So, I question if this design really saves all that much weight. Lots of questions still to be answered.
@caljeff2427Not if you don't have to repair it. The JWST pins were all single points of failure, but they got the reliability so high, it wasn't likely any of the more than 100 would, and they didn't.
@caljeff2427 Let's say you make a battery pack for a car, and out of a million packs, only one fails before it goes 500,000 miles. Do you need to be able to repair it? No. You make 1 more pack, and replace the one that fails.
@caljeff2427 That's true, which is why Tesla added a titanium plate to early Model S packs, so fewer got dammaged. So again, it's a numbers game. You can add enough protection to the packs so the number that get dammaged is very low, then replace them. If you watch the "Monro Live" teardown videos, you can see the new packs are put in with structural adhesive, and so that is the direction they went. Early Teslas had modules that could be replaced. The new ones don't. To determine if this is the right approach or not, you can't just imagine what might happen. You have to get the numbers, and calculate. Tesla has sold more than 5 million EVs. They have the numbers.
Sandy, @6:00 96 Wh is an energy, not a power. And herein lies the rub, what is the rate capability of this cell? Is it even close to sufficient at room temperature? What is the columbic inefficiency per hour? You guys really need some non biased battery consultants or staff to assist with these segments before you start declaring things like this to be the future. Lastly, current collectors play a secondary role as thermal conductors. 😅 “We’ve already done a nail penetration test…” Yea, because the rate capability is so damn poor… it’s “safe”. It’s not capable of power delivery. That’s something that a battery needs to do. This is not a cell that will work for applications like automotive. Maybe watch batteries… (not smart watches)
@@alutious There is little doubt in my mind that he's oblivious to the egregious deception this video is! Probably that scowl is him knowing he's blowing smoke out his ass!
Who cares about fast charging, if you have double capacity, as you will have with simpler battery pack construction. That will still mean you'll have to charge half as often. Weight, volume and price are the true parameters.
@@johnbuchman4854 If the internal resistance is so high, that it doesn't even get warm when you short it by punching a nail through the cell, then the C rates might be pretty low? Good thing the battery is light weight, because it might not be able to power a high power motor?
For years, Sakuu has been playing this marketing game where they quietly flip between talking about the *existence* of this novel solid state cell, and the *performance* of their conventional Li-Ion cell to trick investors into thinking they're right around the corner from a production-ready solid-state battery with Li-Po performance. Eventually, they're going to run out of road to kick that can down, but their government contracts have made that a very long road.
@@dporrasxtremeLS3 I'm not a pessimist about solid state batteries. We're gonna get there, and probably soon! I'm just highly skeptical of private industry (with DoD money) making extraordinary claims about their engineering.
Never listen to financial people of what kind of technical progress is possible. Engineers and scientists are more true valuable authorities over that.
Tech does progress but it has to be financially viable in manufacturing and real word use. Would you pay for a vehicle that is 30% more than another with basically the same specs because it's battery pack was a different architecture that made it 7 kilos less in weight?
@@dublindave5795 what is financially viable is heavily dependent on the situation and those that control the funding. Many things in their start was only a few percentages more effective and a lot more expensive at face value than doing nothing and now when so many mature technologies like the ICE, search efficiencies in singular percentages or less. Those are a lot worse sounding than this new cell technology btw. But they were and are still deemed worthwhile as it was the best that were available and fitting the needs of the situation. And wasn't the energy density almost one third higher. Didn't the guy say the polymers used was cheaper than the metals needed for current batteries, and more? But I am not saying to be certain this product will reach market and do well, just not to trust the people in big corporations who do financial decisions of what is possible in front of the scientists and engineers. Well see if this product survives (I don't know enough about this, but I'm seeing a battery tech with the possibility of opening up a decrease of wests dependency for batteries from CATL). But the risk aversion and stock buybacks by any means necessary have given us the decline of so many corporations and their shutting down of internal product development is just proof what MBA Jack Welch guys thinks and do. Boeing being just one of many examples and closer to the norm than not, of the corporations of the size that can invest in stuff like this. So to trust those over engineers and scientists (which also often knows high level math and need to make decisions based on grant needs etc. Prior leaving their labs and trying to bring a product to market). Is at minimum kind of weird.
i repeat beware the MYTH OF PROGRESS. the History of Technological Development is NOT a "fairytale" where certain things are achieved and people live "happily ever after..." (Phil's savvy Engineer voice) anybody remember all the hype and rhetoric in the Media and in the Tech Journals back 35 years ago regarding the "breakthrough" of Super Conductivity...? oh no...? because I DO, but see the reason most of you DON'T remember any of this is because many of you were either A: still in DIAPERS...? or B: you hadn't even been BORN YET...? now if any of you DARE to have the "courage" (which you don't) to confirm what i'm saying for yourself, i invite you to get a subscription to the New York Times Archives and do a search of their Tech Section between the years 1990 and 1995 and you'll see the many old articles right there. also ref: "Those who don't know History are DOOMED to repeat it..." - George Santayana (1863-1952)
Rapid rates ? Hardly. We've had marginal improvements over the years, but effectively no significant breakthroughs since the first successful EVs 15 years ago.
@@fd15k And no improvement in the grid that is incapable of providing the current to charge a complete replacement of ICE. Sandy has a great channel, but his insistence that the ICE is over is like the climate malthusian cultists claiming the end of the planet every five years for the past 50 years.
@@EpicDrew15 Well, there you have it. In no world 20% energy density increase in the span of 15 years is "rapid" or "big." One could get the inspiration from the CPU development when we went from hundreds of Mhz to Ghz range in just a few years to define "rapid."
Unusually superficial video from Sandy Munro. No real data on key metrics which govern commercial viability like charge and discharge rates, cooling and cycling durability. Also, not metal free since it contains lithium doesn’t it?
@@Buzzhummaits a Lithium-metal anode so yeah there is actual metal in it not just the ions. During charging, a thin layer of lithium-metal will form on the anode side.
@@DanBurgaud Nope! I think EVs will eventually take over, sooner than most expect, but this BS Fake Battery is the issue (and many others, some of which also have Sandy's love) You're very ignorant if you think this thing can EVER power a car. Your analogy would be more accurate as: "... Perpetual Motion Sterling Engines in cars will replace horses..."
@@BillAnt You mean gets prosecuted for fraud or lying to raise investments? That's what he's doing in this video. Nobody who has an understanding of electricity and batteries, including Sandy's own Tom Pruscha, believes this nonsense. Nobody is going to feel "threatened" by this "technology", so no implied threat to the "guy in the white lab coat". Though he may need employment soon.
It will be great if we get some data on charge / discharge and cooling needed. It still needs a housing but maybe this time at the pack level instead of individual cells. Having Sandy so excited I guess there is more to it but probably part of the NDA by Sakku.
Short and sweet but the most fundamentally game changing new battery engineering I have seen in a long long time. AND it looks viable and ready to go!!! I'm with you Sandy, super excited!
Its good to see they are reducing weight without losing volumetric efficiency. Reduction in battery weight is the most important thing. In particular for aviation. Every kilo saved is an extra kilometre driven. (that's a saying not a math challenge).
I remember the new Porsche ... I forgot its model name, but it has a big battery, a bit over 100 kWh, and they weigh at about 600 kg. Now, with this, they could probably reduce that to 400 kg. Maan, that sounds too good to be true. Let's make that 500 kg, and it's still awesome. And on smaller sized cars, having a 30 kWh battery would mean that the car would probably weigh as much as its ICE counterpart. About 1000 kg in total, maybe even less. Exciting times!
Lithium is a metal so it’s not metal-free but it’s metal free packaging. The innovation is the use of a conductive plastic wrap skin. Their biggest challenges will be cooling and dendrite formation. Metal casings aid cooling and allow cells to be wrapped tightly to combat dendrites.
Lithium is a metal is like saying water is a solid. There are different types of structures to lithium as there are for water. When you have salt on your food does it feel like you're crunching on sodium metal?
Nice, but some unanswered questions are if they can be built in production quantities, are they durable in the environment of a car, and if they have sufficient calendar aging.
1000 charges and 80% capacity is way to poor. I hope they will show way better figures than that. If the battery does not last 15-20 years or more, it is useless for a modern car.
@@la7dfa I think calendar aging is something that's being ignored to a degree - what good is holding on to an older car with low mileage if the battery expires just on age. I have two cars, one is a 2011 gas Escape. It's cheap, it's reliable, and it cost nothing to insure or tax because it's 13 years old, but I would dump it if I knew the battery was going to die in two years.
@@ohger1 Battery degredation is a problem with some EVs, but it is a relatively small number. Have you seen any brand with massive battery problems? Mine is 10 years old, and has probably lost a few percent range. But I still drive about the same distance as I did in 2018 when I got it cheap 2nd hand. In the future there will be better materials, that can last way longer. My next car will be an EV too, but with longer range so I can always charge at home, because electricity is cheap and 100% renewable where I live.
@@a.v.gavrilov No... Seriously how are so many people misunderstanding that the data shown in the last video has nothing to do with this polymer cell. All it showed was their dry process and traditional li-metal batteries. That is not what this is.
@@JJFX- This is the same dry process and lithium-metal battery chemistry. The lack of metal only referred to the current collectors, an unfortunate error when explaining it.
@@rhamphbut their whole deal with this cell is they "engineered the current transfer" of their polymer current collectors to reduce runaway from nail penetration. That will directly lead to reduced current limits of the cell in operation too
@@GrenYT The issue is *where* the resistance is. In either case the pack is configured with a resistance to match the desired operating voltage. Same series-parallel numbers in the end. However, because a traditional cell is filled with current collectors, a puncture can easily create a very low resistance path, while the design here should only create a moderate resistance path (resulting in lower current, lower heat, and potentially no fire.)
Everything looks beautiful when it's a prototype and they are at the beginning of seeing results, but it will be real once they start using them in a product I can buy. There is a long process to get to a final product or real application. I think the biggest obstacle is investment in tools, machinery, a big factory, and a contract.
@@shazam6274 As I said: "Everything looks beautiful when it's a prototype and they are at the beginning of seeing results, but it will be real once they start using them in a product I can buy. There is a long process to get to a final product or real application. I think the biggest obstacle is investment in tools, machinery, a big factory, and a contract."
Let's wait until they reach 1000+ cycles and mass production and then check them out again. It looks promising so far, we'll see. Theoretically this could enable a 1 MWh Semi battery that only weighs 3 tons or a 100 kWh pack that weighs about 300 kg, a 55 kWh pack that weighs about 170 kg, for the SR Model 3 or Robotaxi etc.
*Sorry to burst the bubble but Sakuu has been talking about this battery tech since 2019 when it operated under the name KeraCel. And back in the August 25, 2021 edition of Automotive World, Sakuu's Chief Technology Officer, Karl Littau, said that Sakuu’s battery technology could be in use by “late 2022 or early 2023”. And here we are in 2024 looking at Sakuu prototypes on a lab bench. This has the strong stench of vaporware designed to entice investors with a breakthrough that is always just around the corner.*
I missed Information regarding fast charging in terms of the C-Rate. And another pount is that having no metal plates has also disadvantages. the coolung of this cells I think can be a problem. Questuon is, how good are this polymers wirh thermal resistance and how will this plates expand during the charging process.
Sounds like a decent start, but exciting battery technologies tend to do poorly in some specific area: temperature losses, dendrites, internal ohmic losses, aging, vibration, etc. They need a white paper discussing all of these aspects, even if they have only modeled it thus far.
@scrapyardwars Sounds like he actually knows the difference between a lab prototype and a production ready piece of technology to me. I'm disappointed this channel resorted to hyperbole to pump a piece of tech that's not ready for prime time.
This is interesting and it bring also alot of questions: 1: is the electrical contact between the cells only made by compression? which mean it will vary depending on their State Of Charge because they swell and unswell a bit during cycling? 2: is the electrical contact between cells independent from humidity? Normally cell tab are welded using laser or ultrasonic or bolted but now these only rely on simple compression between their anode and canthode direct contact out of the cell... 3: Why other are using aluminum and plastic envelope and not only plastic.. look like aluminum have some advantages to efficiently block some contaminent?
I love the safety features they describe. This would make it possible to integrate a printed film circuit board with designated current collector pads and isolated passthrough hole(s) in between the battery cells to get multiple voltage ranges out of a single battery stack without the need for multiple additional passive components to regulate the output. Revolutionary! like 1 stack that puts out 3-6-12-24-48 volts on separate leads from the same battery stack. this would allow for IC power, sensor power, and motor power to all be directly connected to the battery stack without the need for individual voltage supply adjustment circuits in the controller design.
If Sakuu sets up cathode or anode materials to control burst current, then that increases resistivity. How do they balance the heat generated by higher resistivity under fast charge and discharge cycling?
Great to see! Are you in discussions with any battery manufacturers about licensing? I can't imagine they wouldn't be excited about this if its a viable technology.
You can't stack cells without cell taps, otherwise you cannot monitor/balance the individual cells. Additionally, if you limit cell conductivity for "safety", you are also throwing away fast charging and any reasonable performance. (I2R losses will be high, so the cell will be inefficient)
@@jounisaari9471 Then they are no longer "tabless" as claimed. Like 95% of most new "earth shattering" new battery tech announced, Just wait and see if they can actually get something even remotely useful into production. I'd say this is nowhere near that.
@@Ingineerix it's enough to have a few microns thick and one mm wide wire for measuring the voltage. Flat cable from BMS and stack the sense wires between cells. For sensing the voltage it doesn't need large area and nearly no current is needed. Balancing is different thing. That also needs
@@jounisaari9471 My point is, they claim "tabless". Not "No large tabs". Anytime there is obvious exaggeration and marketing "fluff" , it sets off my Bulls**t detector. Mark my words, I'll bet you we don't even see this in 5% of EVs in 5 years.
Wow this is incredible and a tremendous battery innovation! The comparison between the 4680 cell and Sakuu battery was awesome showing the safety, volume and density advantages. The manufacturing and recycling process will be much more efficient and less expensive. This is huge! I heard that the Sakuu battery has been tested up to 1,000 recharging cycles and they are working on incorporating other tech to improve. One thing I did not hear was what is the actual charging rate. Depending on what that is, it’s a game changer and is the future. The next big step is bringing this to market and timeline.
Maybe never because it's at an early stage and it may never be produced. Munro could find dozens of labs like this one with break-through battery tech...
@@btn73 yes. there's lots of exciting lab developments. Gelion also has a lab cells using Lithium/silicon/sulphur that do similar energy density... The real trick is commercial production, and that takes years to develop and validate. However. it's good to see new promising tech.
It's a different path. In a normal cell the current collectors are across the face of each layer, then the current flows parallel to the layer. Multiple layers are arranged in parallel, so an entire 4680 cell is still 3.7 volts. The pack then combines cells in series (and some more parallel) to get 400 or 800 volts. The cells in this video flow perpendicular. You might stack 100 of them together in series, put a current collector on each end, and form that into a box-cell which gives you 370 volts. The rest of your pack design would be almost entirely parallel. You could also stretch the cell out to be the entire pack... 100× might be too much as we don't know the specific thermal and electrical conductivities, but reducing the thickness and having more cells is always possible.
Hey guys, thanks for this video! We let 2 of our scientists check these battery cell innovations by Sakuu. They were amazed but doubtful at the same time. Have a listen on our channel!
Interesting. Reminiscent of the Polaroid instant camera battery. What is the current per cell? What is the charge rate ( and can it be charged at 10C etc)? What is the discharge rate? What about thermals? And thermals relative to peak charge and discharge? Can it be fully charged and discharged? We need a full comparison matrix.
@@billhanna2148 It's still a lithium chemistry. The laws of physics didn't change. Lithium loses reactivity as it cools and increases in reactivity as it heats up. That's just facts.
@@GrenYT I wasn't impressed with this claim. LTO does that too and that chemistry is quite old! Also, that claim was for a single thin layer and not for many of them in parallel and packed together tightly.
My concerns are charging/discharging currents though the batteries when stacked in series. Thermal expansion/contraction of the series stacked cells, the contact pressure and current capacity between the cells could be come variable and cause hot spots. Thermal control is also a concern. There are a lot of things to prove out but I like the concept a lot!
yeah, like the cold will reduce most batteries by nearly 50%. Tesla insulates their pack to fight this and it's working quite well. I'm not sure this type would be able to be insulated.
Generally there are battery management systems that monitor the voltages of paralleled cells in a series string to make sure they are all working correctly. I assume a BMS would still be needed with these..
Conducting polymers have been researched for decades. I was involved in one project (I'm a Ph.D. chemist): Polyaniline. HOWEVER, as good as it sounds, it is still experimental, thus, still a while (years likely) to go into the real world. As I said, decades have gone into many MANY conducting polymers. Yet, I don't think they will be the end of ICE vehicles. Time stamp this comment and be back in a decade and see how things are going then: today is July 7, 2024
This is actually ready to license, now. It’s why you are seeing THE LONG VERSION OF THIS video that is actually out already . This is happening. 100%. all of the tests are done. It’s better than elons battery. And …thats without the weight advantages.
@@Chon-c care to share more about this novel invention? like any IP info, manufacturer, general polymeric composition, .... something.... so that it sounds like it''s for real. thx
@@blue-neutrino. The company is held by what’s called a “spac”. I’ve already researched it. Private held investments that has a high floor to get in on them. The material is basically what you said from what I can gather , but not completely everything involved here . (I spent a few hours looking at the company and some other things It is legit. . I am only a pragmatic person who keeps up with this kind of tech because of my 40 yr hobby in RCs an all related things to the use of this tech. So I’m familiar with my batteries I use (lipo & lion etc.) Naturally gifted I’m told. Also I am an investor. One that’s done well enough that I retired at the age of 43. I’m not loaded with accolades in Frames. I just have always loved these kind of things & DC power . I could probably get degrees in the fields if I wanted. Easily. I’ve just had no need . But like I stated above. They are a longer version of this video & and a little about the company doing the cycles & capacity testing. Anodes & cathodes are like you would expect. Of course,they will not tell the specific ingredient or their specific refinement techniques. I mean who would. The guys who made this video & do the channel aren’t charlatans. They are serious guys . And I do recognize a couple of the “SPAC” investors names that I was able to find out. And they aren’t dummies. Licensing of the process,specific formulas & equipment facilities setup is what will be paid for & gotten in the licensing agreement. Mass production as I’m sure you know is a whole different animal than what they have in the vid you can see. So no. It’s not something you’ll see in the next yr. But it is legit. I have an idea one what they did here. And like you said. The polymers is the whole ballpark. And tho people can look for them for decades,it doesn’t mean another can’t find them the following week or months. And like a lot of times when it comes to these kinds of things. Sometimes it’s not the Polymer direction ,it’s a change in Processes of things that really changes things or leads things to a complete different direction that can be quiet simple for breakthroughs. so I think the processes and equipment used /made is where the real breakthrough is on this. History is full of examples of overcoming others life’s work to a problem found in weeks or months. So it’s not so far fetched. I just know they have licensing agreements up for sale. And the people that I recognize involved tells me it’s legit. Which is actually all I told you. And it is just that. To invest in the manufacturer and take advantage of this will mean you will have to really watch & read up on tech news for people who does a deal with Saaku I had the same thing in mind as you. Lol. Spac’s are set up this way for reasons such as this where tech moves to fast for the normal things that governs and regulate these kind of IP’s . They are risky & a lot of times end up like Truth social (a scam where the people who owns the spac has Windfalls for themselves. Lol.) They are a few that that is legit and just like this one where it can be a benefit. And a good one. So I’m waiting and watching . Like I would advise you to do.
@Everyday_Foreman - Sakuu is already making the dry cathode/anode tech and production machinery for this available for the wet batteries along with licensing so one would expect the same with the metal free technology. Just be patient and wait. So far the advancements from Sakuu are coming fast with the major holdup being NDA agreements and satisfying the Lawyers. They've already shown the current production equipment for wet process anode and cathodes running side by side with their new dry process anode and cathode production so they are well past the Laboratory Theory Only stage which makes this more exciting. Best!
ICE is dead that for sure now. This technology is so efficient and practical. thank you Sir Munro and thank you Sir Arwed Niestroj and thank you SAKUU's Team. God bless us all.
Yeah, kind of like all those red and black numbers on a roulette wheel. The casinos may have to "pay out" a big $$$, but they know that they'll make a fortune. At least the Casinos are playing with their own money, unlike all the companies you mention, including this one.
@@shazam6274 Its genius when you think about it. "Give us money so that we MAY be able to figure out this new technology that can make you multi billions, or get left behind by the other company that got to that new technology earlier than you"
When I was an Env Science major 20 years ago, the talk was all on how battery tech was the albatross. But between Toyota's supposed advances in Solid State and this, it seems its finally catching up to the rest.
Extremely interesting cell design, but it's not apples to apples to compare the energy density. The outer casing of the 4680 is thicker than it needs to be to contribute to the structure of the battery pack. Unless you guys are directly comparing just the internal 4680 jelly role to Sakuu's design?
Yea it’s not clear to me how much better it will be in the final automotive form. I can already buy 450 Wh/kg pouches but they’re not suitable for automotive for various reasons. But if Sandy’s excited, it’s worth keeping an eye on!
@@snower13 Agreed, I don't doubt it's innovative. I just didn't see/hear enough detail to be confident in how they compared the power density with the 4680 cells.
I had wondered how the benefits might look when you have to replace the 4680 structural benefits to accommodate these non-rigid batteries in a modern ev.
The slide they showed gave a KWh number for power. That was a typo. Power is Watts Energy is KWh. What is the POWER of the cells? They bragged about the resistance improving safety, but with the resistance, it seems like there will be a lot of heat.... How is the heat extracted? This will limit both power and charge rate. Without more info it is hard to say, but it looks like these cells are best suited for applications where the current through the cell can be kept very low.
Nod. It would be easy to run many of these in parallel. For that matter, making them tiny would lead to easy to cool stacks in metal squares. Easy to cool, easy to stack, easy to replace.
Not a mistake on their part, this thing makes very little actual power (i.e. Amps x Volts) the demos is with a load of a 10 M Ohm Volt meter, thus 0.3 microamps or 300 nanoamps
Also.. as mentioned they can chemically alter the properties of the anode and cathode so that if shorted... or punctured - the battery will limit the discharge rate preventing fires. At most the battery will get warm but thats all.
Printing batteries is genius. Without metals as a base layer, what about heat dissipation when heat conduction through metal foils disappears? Heat dissipation via the edge and with thermal paste in contact with which packaging? Pouch cell at the end or a pressed stack like a square battery with or without housing, cell-to-pack or cell-to-chassis application?
too good to be true. what is the catch? not a word on actual chemistry: "no metal" may be valid for the current collector electrodes; otherwise afaik it's lithium metal chemistry. low/high temperature behaviour? (requires cooling or heating?) discharging & charging rates?mechanical robustness (a not-solid pouch will shake for 10 yrs with no problem). Even Sandy is not really authentic if so enthusiastic without any real questions asked.
Sandy, when you do a review of a battery technology, you need too ask ALL the questions needed to determine viability. Performance over temperature, ie -50C to 50C. Cycle life, needs to be 2500+. Hoping for a 1000 cycles is not encouraging.
Current EVs have a life in the 300-500 cycle range and they last 200-400K miles or more. Really don't need huge cycle counts. What most people don't understand is a cycle life is the worst case going 100% SOC to 0% SOC and back. If you go 100% to 50% to 100% you double the cycle life. Reduce the time spent at 100% and 0% and you further increase the life of the battery (although LFP is different in a good way). 1000 cycle life is not needed today, although a great side benefit. No automaker cares about going beyond 1000 cycles, which often equates to close to a million miles. The rest of the vehicle will have fallen apart and the tech will be so out of date for a 30 year old car.
I worked in new product development. There is a huge difference in prototypes and production. I don’t know how many times we have gotten working prototypes that just don’t make it into production for whatever reason. Worse yet is prototypes that are not 100% and making it into production. Boeing is a perfect example of that lately. Wish these guys all the best but they did not give us any hard facts like projected launch dates. Production facility location and fab builds. If this was anything other than a prototype they would be taking us on a tour of the FAB.
COOLING??? Even at 90% efficiency, heat must be rejected and dealt with on (both) the Discharge AND Re-Charge Cycles ... interested to see how this is addressed.
While I agree that this was thin on demonstration there is 0 chance a company is going to let people play with an engineering sample in that way. If Sandy is excited there is something there and he is lucky that people trust him to show this kind of tech even if it's currently bespoke.
They could 1) have provided full, accurate specifications 2) shown a demo with a bulb or motor...but they know this thing has only tiny current capabilities. Sandy doesn't understand basic electricity and gets excited too easily. As in several past episodes, he can be wrong. He was given incentives to be the Arcimoto "mascot", how did that work out?
Really excellent report on this leading edge, bipolar approach that may effectively enable "cells" of any voltage, rather than just 3.8v - 4.3v per "cell," depending basically upon how many layers you choose to put in the stack (basically the number of layers you need for whatever system operating voltage you prefer). Clearly, this bipolar approach could lead to lower weight in the battery "pack" and lower cost, by eliminating the packaging of each individual low voltage cell along with its interconnection to typically two other cells. Depending on any necessary thermal management requirement and approach, this bipolar stacking of low voltage layers could lead to higher energy density for the pack as well, with the same basic chemistry, compared to cylindrical, prismatic or pouched "cells" in any other battery pack. Production cost should also be reduced by the dry coating/printing process that minimizes or avoids entirely the liquid solvents typically utilized today, as well as the flammable liquid electrolytes in use. By non-metallic, I think the Sakuu spokesperson is stating there is no need for the typical metal layers typically required for current collection for each individual cell, usually Aluminum or Copper. However, there might still be metal(lic) ions used to shuttle the charges back and forth between the electrodes of each layer, whether these are ions of Lithium, Sodium or perhaps another metal ion readily exchanged via the electroltye medium, although a non-metal based ion might be utilized instead. If a lithium, sodium or other metal ion originating from a pure metal layer is used to shuttle the charges back and forth, then a primary challenge with this type of battery will be to maintain the integrity of the seals against leakage of air or water into the stack, as air or water would be highly reactive with any pure lithium or other pure metal layer, like with the pure metallic lithium battery that the company has already demonstated can withstand >1000 100% DOD C/3 = 3-hour discharge cycles (with 1C = 1-hour recharges immediately after the full discharges), though no nail-pincture test results are mentioned regarding these lithium-metal batteries, nor is there any mention of the seal integrity issue. Yet, the Sakuu spokesperson says the bipolar battery passed the nail penetration test, which suggests that it is not using any pure lithium or other metal layer. In this case, the energy density will be lower, but overall energy and power densities could still exceed that of conventional "cell" based lithium batteries at the pack level, again depending upon any requirement for and the approach taken for thermal management. Regarding thermal management, the requirement for heat extraction should be less and the time required should also be less to evenly thermally condition the bipolar layers for normal or optimal output performance and charging, and maximizing battery life. To summarize, from what has been stated, a 10%-20% reduction in weight, volume and cost does seem reasonable to project with the shown bipolar, non-metallic approach (i.e., neither pure lithium nor sodium anode). Additionally, if the integrity of the seals can be somehow guaranteed, as suggested (but not shown) with its pure lithium cells, then this bipolar approach might potentially boost the pack's energy density by an additional 40% or more, as well as further lowering the pack cost/kWh.
How is such a stacked battery to be effectively cooled? The polymer "housing" probably has a higher resistance than copper foil. Will that allow really for fast charging?
If this battery can make a pack that could fit into all 5 million (eventually failing) Teslas at half the $20K replacement cost. then this could be a wonderful start.
Thank you Sandy Munro for keeping us informed. 7% material cost reduction, but also reduction in manufacturing complexity and manufacturing energy (extra cost reduction). Simpler is always better for several reasons, but many questions remain. What is the delivered POWER per liter or Kg? Mass production of this cell in the near future? How does the Sakuu cell compare with China's latest LFP batteries? Is Sakuu's dry 3D printing method also suitable for LFP chemistry or sodium chemistry?
@@dogbreath6974 People who enjoy racing their car at the track on weekends? There's no reason an EV needs to have anemic performance. Do you think people buy a Plaid because it's slow? 🤣
this could be great deal for aviation, and if this could be designed flexible for smart clothing, then users can charge phone by putting it in a pocket 😊
1. How many charging cycles does this new battery provide? 1000 charging cycles is NOT very impressive. 2. What is the degradation of the cell over time? How long will it last? 3. How well does this battery operate in extreme hot and cold weather. 4. Can this battery be fast-charged. 5. At 3.1 volts, it would take 323 of these packets to produce 1kW. That's a LOT of plastic battery packets for just 1 kW of power. 6. How do you cool this battery pack? To cool rolled-up packs, you would have to place them in metal canisters. 7. What is the chemistry makeup of the battery? Currently LFP batteries are the most durable batteries made. They can be charged 4000 - 6000 times and maintain 90% of their capacity. Until you can answer these questions, nothing about this is "game-changing!" There are a LOT of real-world problems that this battery design has not solved. This is hardly the "holy grail" of EV batteries.
They didn't reveal anything. What's their polymer, and what's the electrical and thermal resistance of the cells? Critical comparison to Cu/Al contacts.
A lithium ion battery get a new metal-free casing. So, that metal-free, bipolar pouch cell design is old. I first see that cell design in year 2018 and it was used in other battey chemistries as well. I make a cell with that cell design by using conductive plastic and a normal plastic for the spacer by my self. The cell was a zinc based cell and in discharged state the cell dont have any metal,... but when the cell was charged, then the zinc was electroplated on the negative conductive poymer.
One of the previous videos about Sakuu videos talks about that. IIRC they have the manufacturing line running at pilot scale. The line integration is modular so it would use the same machines just more of them to got to production scale. They a licensing the tech so will not be running full-scale plants themselves. I think they have licensees running at pilot scale now.
This is amazing because you don't even need a battery tray anymore. You can have stacks of these polymer layers in the doors, the pillars, the wheel wells, and everywhere throughout the car!
if and when it reaches the cycle requirements this will be a game changer. Only thing not mentioned is cooling - does the absence of metal within the cell itself make heat dissipation at the module level more challenging?
I’m not a hater but I will get excited when I see these deployed commercially. I’ve been reading about battery breakthroughs for years but only very few actually make it to mass market. I hope it is successful.
Yeah. Most never make it out of the lab, although some do. It's also going to be difficult competing with CATL's new batteries, which by all accounts are amazing and they're already on the market it China with a US release at the end of this year. China has a big advantage right now.
The 4680 contributes to the rigidity of the frame of the car, and the metal surface helps cool the battery. So, I question if this design really saves all that much weight. Lots of questions still to be answered.
@caljeff2427Not if you don't have to repair it. The JWST pins were all single points of failure, but they got the reliability so high, it wasn't likely any of the more than 100 would, and they didn't.
@caljeff2427 Let's say you make a battery pack for a car, and out of a million packs, only one fails before it goes 500,000 miles. Do you need to be able to repair it? No. You make 1 more pack, and replace the one that fails.
@caljeff2427 That's true, which is why Tesla added a titanium plate to early Model S packs, so fewer got dammaged. So again, it's a numbers game. You can add enough protection to the packs so the number that get dammaged is very low, then replace them. If you watch the "Monro Live" teardown videos, you can see the new packs are put in with structural adhesive, and so that is the direction they went. Early Teslas had modules that could be replaced. The new ones don't. To determine if this is the right approach or not, you can't just imagine what might happen. You have to get the numbers, and calculate. Tesla has sold more than 5 million EVs. They have the numbers.
Sandy's in love because it doesn't have any screws in it.
And he has stock in Sakuu 😂
Funny!
Sandy,
@6:00 96 Wh is an energy, not a power. And herein lies the rub, what is the rate capability of this cell? Is it even close to sufficient at room temperature? What is the columbic inefficiency per hour? You guys really need some non biased battery consultants or staff to assist with these segments before you start declaring things like this to be the future.
Lastly, current collectors play a secondary role as thermal conductors. 😅
“We’ve already done a nail penetration test…”
Yea, because the rate capability is so damn poor… it’s “safe”. It’s not capable of power delivery. That’s something that a battery needs to do. This is not a cell that will work for applications like automotive. Maybe watch batteries… (not smart watches)
I love when sandy is this happy
Don't delude yourself. The man must be losing his mind! I posted a comment here explaining why.
Funny thing is his scowl, 😅 happy scowl
@@alutious There is little doubt in my mind that he's oblivious to the egregious deception this video is! Probably that scowl is him knowing he's blowing smoke out his ass!
@@de-bodgery at least he has a mind
Even more so when he is not happy 😊
I love it when sandy is excited and happy about something he wants to share. He loves seeing disruption
He loves seeing reduction in cost and waste and increase in efficiency, quality and sustainability
Why no mention of charge and discharge rates?
Who cares about fast charging, if you have double capacity, as you will have with simpler battery pack construction. That will still mean you'll have to charge half as often. Weight, volume and price are the true parameters.
@@Tore_Lund
yeah well, why care about anything at all?
@@ursodermatt8809 That is philosophy, however Nihilists also drive EVs, but they don't suffer from range anxiety.
@@johnbuchman4854 If the internal resistance is so high, that it doesn't even get warm when you short it by punching a nail through the cell, then the C rates might be pretty low?
Good thing the battery is light weight, because it might not be able to power a high power motor?
See it in previous video.
For years, Sakuu has been playing this marketing game where they quietly flip between talking about the *existence* of this novel solid state cell, and the *performance* of their conventional Li-Ion cell to trick investors into thinking they're right around the corner from a production-ready solid-state battery with Li-Po performance. Eventually, they're going to run out of road to kick that can down, but their government contracts have made that a very long road.
Your glass is EMPTY! Dismissed! Your earth is flat...
@@dporrasxtremeLS3Read it again with objectivism
@@dporrasxtremeLS3 I'm not a pessimist about solid state batteries. We're gonna get there, and probably soon! I'm just highly skeptical of private industry (with DoD money) making extraordinary claims about their engineering.
I found a lack of actual specifics other than use of "polymers"
Never listen to financial people of what kind of technical progress is possible. Engineers and scientists are more true valuable authorities over that.
How Dare You! GRETA 2017
Tech does progress but it has to be financially viable in manufacturing and real word use. Would you pay for a vehicle that is 30% more than another with basically the same specs because it's battery pack was a different architecture that made it 7 kilos less in weight?
@@dublindave5795 what is financially viable is heavily dependent on the situation and those that control the funding.
Many things in their start was only a few percentages more effective and a lot more expensive at face value than doing nothing and now when so many mature technologies like the ICE, search efficiencies in singular percentages or less. Those are a lot worse sounding than this new cell technology btw.
But they were and are still deemed worthwhile as it was the best that were available and fitting the needs of the situation. And wasn't the energy density almost one third higher. Didn't the guy say the polymers used was cheaper than the metals needed for current batteries, and more?
But I am not saying to be certain this product will reach market and do well, just not to trust the people in big corporations who do financial decisions of what is possible in front of the scientists and engineers.
Well see if this product survives (I don't know enough about this, but I'm seeing a battery tech with the possibility of opening up a decrease of wests dependency for batteries from CATL).
But the risk aversion and stock buybacks by any means necessary have given us the decline of so many corporations and their shutting down of internal product development is just proof what MBA Jack Welch guys thinks and do. Boeing being just one of many examples and closer to the norm than not, of the corporations of the size that can invest in stuff like this.
So to trust those over engineers and scientists (which also often knows high level math and need to make decisions based on grant needs etc. Prior leaving their labs and trying to bring a product to market). Is at minimum kind of weird.
i repeat beware the MYTH OF PROGRESS. the History of Technological Development is NOT a "fairytale" where certain things are achieved and people live "happily ever after..." (Phil's savvy Engineer voice) anybody remember all the hype and rhetoric in the Media and in the Tech Journals back 35 years ago regarding the "breakthrough" of Super Conductivity...? oh no...? because I DO, but see the reason most of you DON'T remember any of this is because many of you were either A: still in DIAPERS...? or B: you hadn't even been BORN YET...?
now if any of you DARE to have the "courage" (which you don't) to confirm what i'm saying for yourself, i invite you to get a subscription to the New York Times Archives and do a search of their Tech Section between the years 1990 and 1995 and you'll see the many old articles right there. also ref: "Those who don't know History are DOOMED to repeat it..." - George Santayana (1863-1952)
Too much snake-oil in the speech in the video for me to consider this tech real, nevermind viable.
Battery/EV tech is really advancing at rapid rates. Amazing engineering by Sakuu. Great video Sandy !
Yes! Thank you!
Rapid rates ? Hardly. We've had marginal improvements over the years, but effectively no significant breakthroughs since the first successful EVs 15 years ago.
@@fd15k And no improvement in the grid that is incapable of providing the current to charge a complete replacement of ICE. Sandy has a great channel, but his insistence that the ICE is over is like the climate malthusian cultists claiming the end of the planet every five years for the past 50 years.
@fd15k are you high or just ignorant?
@@EpicDrew15
Well, there you have it. In no world 20% energy density increase in the span of 15 years is "rapid" or "big." One could get the inspiration from the CPU development when we went from hundreds of Mhz to Ghz range in just a few years to define "rapid."
Unusually superficial video from Sandy Munro. No real data on key metrics which govern commercial viability like charge and discharge rates, cooling and cycling durability. Also, not metal free since it contains lithium doesn’t it?
Lithium ions
Lithium ions are not the same . When you have salt on your food, you're not eating sodium metal are you?
@@Buzzhummathat would burn!
@@Buzzhummaits a Lithium-metal anode so yeah there is actual metal in it not just the ions. During charging, a thin layer of lithium-metal will form on the anode side.
"I'd like to show you something!" Sandy holding that new battery like a new grand-baby. LOL
Basically a Lipo minus the copper & aluminium foil. Game changing stuff !
That foil was there for reason.
Intro: ". . . THIS is the end of the ICE age. . . "
Munro is poetic there.
More like: "this is the end of Sandy's credibility" (re Electricity & Batteries)
@@shazam6274 Your grandfather said a similar thing 120 years ago about cars replacing horses.
@@DanBurgaud Nope! I think EVs will eventually take over, sooner than most expect, but this BS Fake Battery is the issue (and many others, some of which also have Sandy's love) You're very ignorant if you think this thing can EVER power a car. Your analogy would be more accurate as: "... Perpetual Motion Sterling Engines in cars will replace horses..."
I'm just afraid that the guy in the white lab coat will disappear soon, and I don't mean just walking away from the camera. ;(
@@BillAnt You mean gets prosecuted for fraud or lying to raise investments? That's what he's doing in this video. Nobody who has an understanding of electricity and batteries, including Sandy's own Tom Pruscha, believes this nonsense. Nobody is going to feel "threatened" by this "technology", so no implied threat to the "guy in the white lab coat". Though he may need employment soon.
It will be great if we get some data on charge / discharge and cooling needed. It still needs a housing but maybe this time at the pack level instead of individual cells. Having Sandy so excited I guess there is more to it but probably part of the NDA by Sakku.
Short and sweet but the most fundamentally game changing new battery engineering I have seen in a long long time. AND it looks viable and ready to go!!!
I'm with you Sandy, super excited!
@@stickleback73 there’s one born every minute…
Ok 180-200kg for a 50KWh battery pack including case and support hardware is pretty impressive.
Its good to see they are reducing weight without losing volumetric efficiency. Reduction in battery weight is the most important thing. In particular for aviation. Every kilo saved is an extra kilometre driven. (that's a saying not a math challenge).
@@DeveloperChriswould be neat for these to be printed in shape of wings for fuller filling.
I remember the new Porsche ... I forgot its model name, but it has a big battery, a bit over 100 kWh, and they weigh at about 600 kg. Now, with this, they could probably reduce that to 400 kg. Maan, that sounds too good to be true. Let's make that 500 kg, and it's still awesome.
And on smaller sized cars, having a 30 kWh battery would mean that the car would probably weigh as much as its ICE counterpart. About 1000 kg in total, maybe even less. Exciting times!
Only 250wh/kg at pack level. You need 400wh/kg at pack level for evtols.
@@freddybell8328 catl is already achieving that level (condensed battery). being able to reduce weight again will only help
Lithium is a metal so it’s not metal-free but it’s metal free packaging. The innovation is the use of a conductive plastic wrap skin. Their biggest challenges will be cooling and dendrite formation. Metal casings aid cooling and allow cells to be wrapped tightly to combat dendrites.
This particular type of cell is metal-free inside and out. The company does license other cells that use lithium.
@@elliotclee Potato battery!
Lithium is a metal is like saying water is a solid. There are different types of structures to lithium as there are for water. When you have salt on your food does it feel like you're crunching on sodium metal?
@@Buzzhumma elemental lithium is a metal. We know there are compounds that have different properties, but we still call the element a metal.
@@Buzzhumma what is the chemical formula of lithium metal?
Exciting! I just hope it can make it out of the lab and scale.
Nice, but some unanswered questions are if they can be built in production quantities, are they durable in the environment of a car, and if they have sufficient calendar aging.
IDK
WDK
TDK
NBK
I'm also concerned about the scalability in capacity per unit.
1000 charges and 80% capacity is way to poor. I hope they will show way better figures than that. If the battery does not last 15-20 years or more, it is useless for a modern car.
@@la7dfa I think calendar aging is something that's being ignored to a degree - what good is holding on to an older car with low mileage if the battery expires just on age. I have two cars, one is a 2011 gas Escape. It's cheap, it's reliable, and it cost nothing to insure or tax because it's 13 years old, but I would dump it if I knew the battery was going to die in two years.
@@ohger1 Battery degredation is a problem with some EVs, but it is a relatively small number. Have you seen any brand with massive battery problems? Mine is 10 years old, and has probably lost a few percent range. But I still drive about the same distance as I did in 2018 when I got it cheap 2nd hand.
In the future there will be better materials, that can last way longer.
My next car will be an EV too, but with longer range so I can always charge at home, because electricity is cheap and 100% renewable where I live.
What's the C-rate for charge and discharge?
See it in previous video.
@@a.v.gavrilov No... Seriously how are so many people misunderstanding that the data shown in the last video has nothing to do with this polymer cell. All it showed was their dry process and traditional li-metal batteries. That is not what this is.
@@JJFX- This is the same dry process and lithium-metal battery chemistry. The lack of metal only referred to the current collectors, an unfortunate error when explaining it.
@@rhamphbut their whole deal with this cell is they "engineered the current transfer" of their polymer current collectors to reduce runaway from nail penetration. That will directly lead to reduced current limits of the cell in operation too
@@GrenYT The issue is *where* the resistance is. In either case the pack is configured with a resistance to match the desired operating voltage. Same series-parallel numbers in the end. However, because a traditional cell is filled with current collectors, a puncture can easily create a very low resistance path, while the design here should only create a moderate resistance path (resulting in lower current, lower heat, and potentially no fire.)
I'll believe it when I see it on the market.
Or when ordered to by the propagandists.
Everything looks beautiful when it's a prototype and they are at the beginning of seeing results, but it will be real once they start using them in a product I can buy. There is a long process to get to a final product or real application. I think the biggest obstacle is investment in tools, machinery, a big factory, and a contract.
Having said this, they could make a mint licensing this to folks who can scale up.
The biggest obstacle is no current capability, i.e. it doesn't work for the intended purpose.
@@leoyoung7547 correct
@@shazam6274 As I said: "Everything looks beautiful when it's a prototype and they are at the beginning of seeing results, but it will be real once they start using them in a product I can buy. There is a long process to get to a final product or real application. I think the biggest obstacle is investment in tools, machinery, a big factory, and a contract."
@@leoyoung7547This guy gets it.
Let's wait until they reach 1000+ cycles and mass production and then check them out again. It looks promising so far, we'll see. Theoretically this could enable a 1 MWh Semi battery that only weighs 3 tons or a 100 kWh pack that weighs about 300 kg, a 55 kWh pack that weighs about 170 kg, for the SR Model 3 or Robotaxi etc.
*Sorry to burst the bubble but Sakuu has been talking about this battery tech since 2019 when it operated under the name KeraCel. And back in the August 25, 2021 edition of Automotive World, Sakuu's Chief Technology Officer, Karl Littau, said that Sakuu’s battery technology could be in use by “late 2022 or early 2023”. And here we are in 2024 looking at Sakuu prototypes on a lab bench. This has the strong stench of vaporware designed to entice investors with a breakthrough that is always just around the corner.*
I missed Information regarding fast charging in terms of the C-Rate. And another pount is that having no metal plates has also disadvantages. the coolung of this cells I think can be a problem. Questuon is, how good are this polymers wirh thermal resistance and how will this plates expand during the charging process.
See C-factor in previous video.
Intentionally left out, which means slow. The work arounds are probably expensive. But we really don't know until they are more open.
Sandy, you always have me learning something ☺️
The future is looking great with this contribution to progression. Great work!!!
Sounds like a decent start, but exciting battery technologies tend to do poorly in some specific area: temperature losses, dendrites, internal ohmic losses, aging, vibration, etc. They need a white paper discussing all of these aspects, even if they have only modeled it thus far.
Zero dendrite formation as there is no liquid medium.
Cool potential but agree there is more dev work needed before the hype train leaves the station.
@@Barskor1 Why would that mean no dendrites? You can have solid state and still have dendrite issues.
Good points. And, what about recycling?
@scrapyardwars Sounds like he actually knows the difference between a lab prototype and a production ready piece of technology to me.
I'm disappointed this channel resorted to hyperbole to pump a piece of tech that's not ready for prime time.
This is interesting and it bring also alot of questions: 1: is the electrical contact between the cells only made by compression? which mean it will vary depending on their State Of Charge because they swell and unswell a bit during cycling? 2: is the electrical contact between cells independent from humidity? Normally cell tab are welded using laser or ultrasonic or bolted but now these only rely on simple compression between their anode and canthode direct contact out of the cell... 3: Why other are using aluminum and plastic envelope and not only plastic.. look like aluminum have some advantages to efficiently block some contaminent?
I love the safety features they describe.
This would make it possible to integrate a printed film circuit board with designated current collector pads and isolated passthrough hole(s) in between the battery cells to get multiple voltage ranges out of a single battery stack without the need for multiple additional passive components to regulate the output. Revolutionary!
like 1 stack that puts out 3-6-12-24-48 volts on separate leads from the same battery stack.
this would allow for IC power, sensor power, and motor power to all be directly connected to the battery stack without the need for individual voltage supply adjustment circuits in the controller design.
If Sakuu sets up cathode or anode materials to control burst current, then that increases resistivity. How do they balance the heat generated by higher resistivity under fast charge and discharge cycling?
Great to see! Are you in discussions with any battery manufacturers about licensing? I can't imagine they wouldn't be excited about this if its a viable technology.
You can't stack cells without cell taps, otherwise you cannot monitor/balance the individual cells. Additionally, if you limit cell conductivity for "safety", you are also throwing away fast charging and any reasonable performance. (I2R losses will be high, so the cell will be inefficient)
For probing the voltage is enough to have a thin and narrow strip between the cells.
@@jounisaari9471 Then they are no longer "tabless" as claimed. Like 95% of most new "earth shattering" new battery tech announced, Just wait and see if they can actually get something even remotely useful into production. I'd say this is nowhere near that.
@@Ingineerix it's enough to have a few microns thick and one mm wide wire for measuring the voltage. Flat cable from BMS and stack the sense wires between cells. For sensing the voltage it doesn't need large area and nearly no current is needed.
Balancing is different thing. That also needs
@@jounisaari9471 My point is, they claim "tabless". Not "No large tabs". Anytime there is obvious exaggeration and marketing "fluff" , it sets off my Bulls**t detector. Mark my words, I'll bet you we don't even see this in 5% of EVs in 5 years.
Wow this is incredible and a tremendous battery innovation! The comparison between the 4680 cell and Sakuu battery was awesome showing the safety, volume and density advantages. The manufacturing and recycling process will be much more efficient and less expensive. This is huge! I heard that the Sakuu battery has been tested up to 1,000 recharging cycles and they are working on incorporating other tech to improve. One thing I did not hear was what is the actual charging rate. Depending on what that is, it’s a game changer and is the future. The next big step is bringing this to market and timeline.
Thanks Sandy. You didn't cover how a pack would be cooled. Would be great if your team explored how to fit these cells into a pack with cooling.
Especially if the plastic contacts make them higher resistance and lower thermal conductivity. Not a good combo for EVs.
With Sandy Monroe, every day has a game changing innovation
Incredible battery technology.
promise and delivery are different. A lot of stuff looks good in the lab.
@@Chris-ut6eq Soooooooo trueeeee! How many have tried and died...lol
Yeah, "incredible" means not credible.
Big Question: When will we see these batteries in BEVs like from Tesla? Also, I’m guessing that they do not need any liquid cooling?
Yeah nothing on cooling but nothing on mass production either no dates you know it could be just another pipe dream I hope not
~10yrs if ever. mass mfing is the harder part. look at the date of maxwell dry coating patent date, still not cracked large scale
Maybe never because it's at an early stage and it may never be produced. Munro could find dozens of labs like this one with break-through battery tech...
@@btn73 yes. there's lots of exciting lab developments. Gelion also has a lab cells using Lithium/silicon/sulphur that do similar energy density... The real trick is commercial production, and that takes years to develop and validate. However. it's good to see new promising tech.
This seems potentially revolutionary
I see what you did there.......
As the blind man said, "We shall see."
Great to see Sandy back to his senses, not being impressed by Tesla only. Creativity, Innovation and disruption not limited to only one person.
What's the charge/discharge current? With no metal, surely internal resistance (both electrical an thermal) has to be much higher?
It's a different path. In a normal cell the current collectors are across the face of each layer, then the current flows parallel to the layer. Multiple layers are arranged in parallel, so an entire 4680 cell is still 3.7 volts. The pack then combines cells in series (and some more parallel) to get 400 or 800 volts.
The cells in this video flow perpendicular. You might stack 100 of them together in series, put a current collector on each end, and form that into a box-cell which gives you 370 volts. The rest of your pack design would be almost entirely parallel. You could also stretch the cell out to be the entire pack...
100× might be too much as we don't know the specific thermal and electrical conductivities, but reducing the thickness and having more cells is always possible.
@@rhamph The question still remains, what's the electrical and thermal resistance of a whole battery pack?
Hey guys, thanks for this video! We let 2 of our scientists check these battery cell innovations by Sakuu. They were amazed but doubtful at the same time. Have a listen on our channel!
Interesting. Reminiscent of the Polaroid instant camera battery. What is the current per cell? What is the charge rate ( and can it be charged at 10C etc)? What is the discharge rate? What about thermals? And thermals relative to peak charge and discharge? Can it be fully charged and discharged? We need a full comparison matrix.
See C-rate in previous video.
Few questions, how do you balance cells and how to do thermal management?
NO RUNAWAY ON THIS CELLS? THATS F*AWESOME
does this mean it does not need cooling or thermal management?
It's not true. All they proved was no runaway from nail penetration which I'm still skeptical about. Cells can runaway from so many other causes still
This is hardly news! LTO and LFP have been doing this for many years!
@@billhanna2148 It's still a lithium chemistry. The laws of physics didn't change. Lithium loses reactivity as it cools and increases in reactivity as it heats up. That's just facts.
@@GrenYT I wasn't impressed with this claim. LTO does that too and that chemistry is quite old! Also, that claim was for a single thin layer and not for many of them in parallel and packed together tightly.
Looks like a GREAT next step in battery tech ! Can't wait till they're on the market.
My concerns are charging/discharging currents though the batteries when stacked in series. Thermal expansion/contraction of the series stacked cells, the contact pressure and current capacity between the cells could be come variable and cause hot spots. Thermal control is also a concern. There are a lot of things to prove out but I like the concept a lot!
I said the same thing. You have great experience. Do you have content on youtube?
yeah, like the cold will reduce most batteries by nearly 50%. Tesla insulates their pack to fight this and it's working quite well. I'm not sure this type would be able to be insulated.
Please Sandy use Wh as ENERGY unit and W as POWER unit ! thanks you 6:00
Generally there are battery management systems that monitor the voltages of paralleled cells in a series string to make sure they are all working correctly. I assume a BMS would still be needed with these..
It also controls charging so there will always be a battery management system.
Thanks for the reporting, And affordable home storage battery would be a gateway drug for the further adoption of EVs!
Conducting polymers have been researched for decades. I was involved in one project (I'm a Ph.D. chemist): Polyaniline. HOWEVER, as good as it sounds, it is still experimental, thus, still a while (years likely) to go into the real world. As I said, decades have gone into many MANY conducting polymers. Yet, I don't think they will be the end of ICE vehicles. Time stamp this comment and be back in a decade and see how things are going then: today is July 7, 2024
This is actually ready to license, now.
It’s why you are seeing THE LONG VERSION OF THIS video that is actually out already .
This is happening. 100%.
all of the tests are done.
It’s better than elons battery.
And …thats without the weight advantages.
@@Chon-c care to share more about this novel invention? like any IP info, manufacturer, general polymeric composition, .... something.... so that it sounds like it''s for real. thx
@@blue-neutrino. The company is held by what’s called a “spac”.
I’ve already researched it. Private held investments that has a high floor to get in on them.
The material is basically what you said from what I can gather , but not completely everything involved here . (I spent a few hours looking at the company and some other things
It is legit. .
I am only a pragmatic person who keeps up with this kind of tech because of my 40 yr hobby in RCs an all related things to the use of this tech.
So I’m familiar with my batteries I use (lipo & lion etc.) Naturally gifted I’m told.
Also I am an investor.
One that’s done well enough that I retired at the age of 43.
I’m not loaded with accolades in Frames.
I just have always loved these kind of things & DC power .
I could probably get degrees in the fields if I wanted. Easily. I’ve just had no need .
But like I stated above. They are a longer version of this video & and a little about the company doing the cycles & capacity testing.
Anodes & cathodes are like you would expect.
Of course,they will not tell the specific ingredient or their specific refinement techniques.
I mean who would.
The guys who made this video & do the channel aren’t charlatans.
They are serious guys .
And I do recognize a couple of the “SPAC” investors names that I was able to find out.
And they aren’t dummies.
Licensing of the process,specific formulas & equipment facilities setup is what will be paid for & gotten in the licensing agreement.
Mass production as I’m sure you know is a whole different animal than what they have in the vid you can see.
So no. It’s not something you’ll see in the next yr.
But it is legit.
I have an idea one what they did here. And like you said. The polymers is the whole ballpark.
And tho people can look for them for decades,it doesn’t mean another can’t find them the following week or months.
And like a lot of times when it comes to these kinds of things. Sometimes it’s not the Polymer direction ,it’s a change in Processes of things that really changes things or leads things to a complete different direction that can be quiet simple for breakthroughs. so I think the processes and equipment used /made is where the real breakthrough is on this.
History is full of examples of overcoming others life’s work to a problem found in weeks or months.
So it’s not so far fetched.
I just know they have licensing agreements up for sale.
And the people that I recognize involved tells me it’s legit.
Which is actually all I told you.
And it is just that.
To invest in the manufacturer and take advantage of this will mean you will have to really watch & read up on tech news for people who does a deal with Saaku
I had the same thing in mind as you. Lol.
Spac’s are set up this way for reasons such as this where tech moves to fast for the normal things that governs and regulate these kind of IP’s .
They are risky & a lot of times end up like Truth social (a scam where the people who owns the spac has Windfalls for themselves. Lol.)
They are a few that that is legit and just like this one where it can be a benefit. And a good one.
So I’m waiting and watching . Like I would advise you to do.
There is so much work to do getting a product from lab to production. Prototyping is easy but production is hell!!!
@Everyday_Foreman - Sakuu is already making the dry cathode/anode tech and production machinery for this available for the wet batteries along with licensing so one would expect the same with the metal free technology. Just be patient and wait. So far the advancements from Sakuu are coming fast with the major holdup being NDA agreements and satisfying the Lawyers. They've already shown the current production equipment for wet process anode and cathodes running side by side with their new dry process anode and cathode production so they are well past the Laboratory Theory Only stage which makes this more exciting.
Best!
I saw the Munro Cybertruck on Williams Lake road a few days ago!!! So Cool.
ICE is dead that for sure now. This technology is so efficient and practical. thank you Sir Munro and thank you Sir Arwed Niestroj and thank you SAKUU's Team. God bless us all.
Sakuu, Storedot, Solidpower, Quantumscape, Amprius.
All it takes is for one of them to succeed and it will cause a paradigm shift.
Yeah, kind of like all those red and black numbers on a roulette wheel. The casinos may have to "pay out" a big $$$, but they know that they'll make a fortune. At least the Casinos are playing with their own money, unlike all the companies you mention, including this one.
@@shazam6274 Its genius when you think about it. "Give us money so that we MAY be able to figure out this new technology that can make you multi billions, or get left behind by the other company that got to that new technology earlier than you"
@@shazam6274 So far the 00 is winning.
When I was an Env Science major 20 years ago, the talk was all on how battery tech was the albatross. But between Toyota's supposed advances in Solid State and this, it seems its finally catching up to the rest.
Extremely interesting cell design, but it's not apples to apples to compare the energy density. The outer casing of the 4680 is thicker than it needs to be to contribute to the structure of the battery pack. Unless you guys are directly comparing just the internal 4680 jelly role to Sakuu's design?
Yea it’s not clear to me how much better it will be in the final automotive form. I can already buy 450 Wh/kg pouches but they’re not suitable for automotive for various reasons. But if Sandy’s excited, it’s worth keeping an eye on!
@@snower13 Agreed, I don't doubt it's innovative. I just didn't see/hear enough detail to be confident in how they compared the power density with the 4680 cells.
LiFePO4, cooling?
I had wondered how the benefits might look when you have to replace the 4680 structural benefits to accommodate these non-rigid batteries in a modern ev.
This is mindlowing ❤ this needs to get to mass production as fast as possible. I hope tesla may licence this
The slide they showed gave a KWh number for power. That was a typo. Power is Watts Energy is KWh.
What is the POWER of the cells?
They bragged about the resistance improving safety, but with the resistance, it seems like there will be a lot of heat.... How is the heat extracted? This will limit both power and charge rate.
Without more info it is hard to say, but it looks like these cells are best suited for applications where the current through the cell can be kept very low.
Nod. It would be easy to run many of these in parallel. For that matter, making them tiny would lead to easy to cool stacks in metal squares. Easy to cool, easy to stack, easy to replace.
Not a mistake on their part, this thing makes very little actual power (i.e. Amps x Volts) the demos is with a load of a 10 M Ohm Volt meter, thus 0.3 microamps or 300 nanoamps
Make a soda machine that packages Coca-Cola like bubble tea
Congrats Sakuu!!!!
Thank you very much
Also.. as mentioned they can chemically alter the properties of the anode and cathode so that if shorted... or punctured - the battery will limit the discharge rate preventing fires. At most the battery will get warm but thats all.
Cool but still more questions. ThX
Printing batteries is genius. Without metals as a base layer, what about heat dissipation when heat conduction through metal foils disappears?
Heat dissipation via the edge and with thermal paste in contact with which packaging? Pouch cell at the end or a pressed stack like a square battery with or without housing, cell-to-pack or cell-to-chassis application?
Very cool! Always fun to see the "impossible" being done!!
too good to be true. what is the catch? not a word on actual chemistry: "no metal" may be valid for the current collector electrodes; otherwise afaik it's lithium metal chemistry. low/high temperature behaviour? (requires cooling or heating?) discharging & charging rates?mechanical robustness (a not-solid pouch will shake for 10 yrs with no problem). Even Sandy is not really authentic if so enthusiastic without any real questions asked.
Sandy, when you do a review of a battery technology, you need too ask ALL the questions needed to determine viability. Performance over temperature, ie -50C to 50C. Cycle life, needs to be 2500+. Hoping for a 1000 cycles is not encouraging.
Current EVs have a life in the 300-500 cycle range and they last 200-400K miles or more. Really don't need huge cycle counts. What most people don't understand is a cycle life is the worst case going 100% SOC to 0% SOC and back. If you go 100% to 50% to 100% you double the cycle life. Reduce the time spent at 100% and 0% and you further increase the life of the battery (although LFP is different in a good way). 1000 cycle life is not needed today, although a great side benefit. No automaker cares about going beyond 1000 cycles, which often equates to close to a million miles. The rest of the vehicle will have fallen apart and the tech will be so out of date for a 30 year old car.
I worked in new product development. There is a huge difference in prototypes and production. I don’t know how many times we have gotten working prototypes that just don’t make it into production for whatever reason. Worse yet is prototypes that are not 100% and making it into production. Boeing is a perfect example of that lately. Wish these guys all the best but they did not give us any hard facts like projected launch dates. Production facility location and fab builds. If this was anything other than a prototype they would be taking us on a tour of the FAB.
5:26 -Power- Energy
Correct, Energy! Thx
Really inexcusable mistake to not catch, they should fix the video and re-upload…
Wow just wow!!!
The VTOL industry should benefit quite well with this tech.
VTOL is a bullshit rich man's toy
You mean MIGHT benefit. Let's get some more specs first.
COOLING??? Even at 90% efficiency, heat must be rejected and dealt with on (both) the Discharge AND Re-Charge Cycles ... interested to see how this is addressed.
Dare you to connect a brake light bulb to it for 5 minutes! 😂
While I agree that this was thin on demonstration there is 0 chance a company is going to let people play with an engineering sample in that way. If Sandy is excited there is something there and he is lucky that people trust him to show this kind of tech even if it's currently bespoke.
They could 1) have provided full, accurate specifications 2) shown a demo with a bulb or motor...but they know this thing has only tiny current capabilities. Sandy doesn't understand basic electricity and gets excited too easily. As in several past episodes, he can be wrong. He was given incentives to be the Arcimoto "mascot", how did that work out?
Really excellent report on this leading edge, bipolar approach that may effectively enable "cells" of any voltage, rather than just 3.8v - 4.3v per "cell," depending basically upon how many layers you choose to put in the stack (basically the number of layers you need for whatever system operating voltage you prefer).
Clearly, this bipolar approach could lead to lower weight in the battery "pack" and lower cost, by eliminating the packaging of each individual low voltage cell along with its interconnection to typically two other cells. Depending on any necessary thermal management requirement and approach, this bipolar stacking of low voltage layers could lead to higher energy density for the pack as well, with the same basic chemistry, compared to cylindrical, prismatic or pouched "cells" in any other battery pack. Production cost should also be reduced by the dry coating/printing process that minimizes or avoids entirely the liquid solvents typically utilized today, as well as the flammable liquid electrolytes in use.
By non-metallic, I think the Sakuu spokesperson is stating there is no need for the typical metal layers typically required for current collection for each individual cell, usually Aluminum or Copper. However, there might still be metal(lic) ions used to shuttle the charges back and forth between the electrodes of each layer, whether these are ions of Lithium, Sodium or perhaps another metal ion readily exchanged via the electroltye medium, although a non-metal based ion might be utilized instead.
If a lithium, sodium or other metal ion originating from a pure metal layer is used to shuttle the charges back and forth, then a primary challenge with this type of battery will be to maintain the integrity of the seals against leakage of air or water into the stack, as air or water would be highly reactive with any pure lithium or other pure metal layer, like with the pure metallic lithium battery that the company has already demonstated can withstand >1000 100% DOD C/3 = 3-hour discharge cycles (with 1C = 1-hour recharges immediately after the full discharges), though no nail-pincture test results are mentioned regarding these lithium-metal batteries, nor is there any mention of the seal integrity issue.
Yet, the Sakuu spokesperson says the bipolar battery passed the nail penetration test, which suggests that it is not using any pure lithium or other metal layer. In this case, the energy density will be lower, but overall energy and power densities could still exceed that of conventional "cell" based lithium batteries at the pack level, again depending upon any requirement for and the approach taken for thermal management. Regarding thermal management, the requirement for heat extraction should be less and the time required should also be less to evenly thermally condition the bipolar layers for normal or optimal output performance and charging, and maximizing battery life.
To summarize, from what has been stated, a 10%-20% reduction in weight, volume and cost does seem reasonable to project with the shown bipolar, non-metallic approach (i.e., neither pure lithium nor sodium anode). Additionally, if the integrity of the seals can be somehow guaranteed, as suggested (but not shown) with its pure lithium cells, then this bipolar approach might potentially boost the pack's energy density by an additional 40% or more, as well as further lowering the pack cost/kWh.
Sounds like you know a bit about this subject, maybe more than Sandy. I need to read up on bi polar.
What's the battery life?
The battery does not really exist. It's a experiment. Maybe we can tell more 10 years from now.
If they aren't saying.. It's not good
How is such a stacked battery to be effectively cooled? The polymer "housing" probably has a higher resistance than copper foil. Will that allow really for fast charging?
Sandy investing in Sakuu then! 😂, charge and discharge details?
If this battery can make a pack that could fit into all 5 million (eventually failing) Teslas at half the $20K replacement cost. then this could be a wonderful start.
Why hasn’t anyone told Elon to buy this company
Who is the man showing you this? Is he the main scientist/engineer? He will change the entire world!
Power 96 Wh?
Energy 96 Wh!
@@FuzTheCat Power: maybe 10W, is my guess.
Holy grail 😮
I'm still worried about that SHARK 10 yards away...
Thank you Sandy Munro for keeping us informed. 7% material cost reduction, but also reduction in manufacturing complexity and manufacturing energy (extra cost reduction). Simpler is always better for several reasons, but many questions remain. What is the delivered POWER per liter or Kg? Mass production of this cell in the near future? How does the Sakuu cell compare with China's latest LFP batteries? Is Sakuu's dry 3D printing method also suitable for LFP chemistry or sodium chemistry?
Charge/discharge rates?
Finally, a real battery advancement as opposed to another solid state battery promise. Can’t wait to see this come to market.
I heard no mention of the discharge rate? The Tesla Plaid is doing a 9.1 second 1/4 mile. Can these batteries handle that sort of discharge rate?
Who the hell drives a 1/4 mile in 9.1 seconds in the real world?
@@dogbreath6974 Anyone with a plaid that wants to.
@@dogbreath6974 People who enjoy racing their car at the track on weekends? There's no reason an EV needs to have anemic performance. Do you think people buy a Plaid because it's slow? 🤣
If there’s no metal in it, it’s not getting a Nissan Leaf from 0-60 in under a minute.
this could be great deal for aviation, and if this could be designed flexible for smart clothing, then users can charge phone by putting it in a pocket 😊
Wow!, thanks for bringing this to our attention Sandy
1. How many charging cycles does this new battery provide? 1000 charging cycles is NOT very impressive.
2. What is the degradation of the cell over time? How long will it last?
3. How well does this battery operate in extreme hot and cold weather.
4. Can this battery be fast-charged.
5. At 3.1 volts, it would take 323 of these packets to produce 1kW. That's a LOT of plastic battery packets for just 1 kW of power.
6. How do you cool this battery pack? To cool rolled-up packs, you would have to place them in metal canisters.
7. What is the chemistry makeup of the battery? Currently LFP batteries are the most durable batteries made. They can be charged 4000 - 6000 times and maintain 90% of their capacity.
Until you can answer these questions, nothing about this is "game-changing!" There are a LOT of real-world problems that this battery design has not solved. This is hardly the "holy grail" of EV batteries.
On traditional cells the metal foil conducts heat away from the cell. How are they going to cool these ?
Wow! Very impressive. Thanks for sharing this info, Sandy! Any ideas on timelines for deployment commercially?
But does metal in the cathode help dissipate the heat? Wick away the heat
You can just stack these and submerge them in non conductive coolant.. like fish in a barrel
@@calholli no, you can't just dip it. I think it has to be wicked away. That's why polymer and no metal feels wrong to me
Thermal runaway. I like the lithium metal.. but idk about this new hotdog
But now do you attach a BMS to prevent some cells (1 layer in the stack) from getting overcharged while underhanded cells get charged fully.
Munro power made them reveal their breakthrough. Only Sandy can do this. Thank you!
They didn't reveal anything. What's their polymer, and what's the electrical and thermal resistance of the cells? Critical comparison to Cu/Al contacts.
A lithium ion battery get a new metal-free casing. So, that metal-free, bipolar pouch cell design is old. I first see that cell design in year 2018 and it was used in other battey chemistries as well. I make a cell with that cell design by using conductive plastic and a normal plastic for the spacer by my self. The cell was a zinc based cell and in discharged state the cell dont have any metal,... but when the cell was charged, then the zinc was electroplated on the negative conductive poymer.
But can they manufacture in volume?
One of the previous videos about Sakuu videos talks about that. IIRC they have the manufacturing line running at pilot scale. The line integration is modular so it would use the same machines just more of them to got to production scale. They a licensing the tech so will not be running full-scale plants themselves. I think they have licensees running at pilot scale now.
@@ryuuguu01boy I hope so that means in a couple years high production value
A "metal free" lithium battery........ Lithium...... Lithium
This is amazing because you don't even need a battery tray anymore. You can have stacks of these polymer layers in the doors, the pillars, the wheel wells, and everywhere throughout the car!
Reminds me on a volta column.
If you "stack them around the car" you're just transferring battery weight to the interconnecting cables, so no.
if and when it reaches the cycle requirements this will be a game changer. Only thing not mentioned is cooling - does the absence of metal within the cell itself make heat dissipation at the module level more challenging?