From a ZvP perspective, what I don't like about the new patch is that it feels Protoss are forced even more into going Stargate. Because of the spores they'll have less games where they kill a lot of workers but they have much defense against all-ins. The net result... even more games of ZvP that look very samey at the start.
I've been trying to explain this to people but no one wants to hear it. For all the people who complain about how easy toss is on the ladder, there's really just 2 builds viable for zvp and pvt. Those builds are really strong and naturally stage your average toss player into the mid/ late game really well which leads to good ladder consistency in farming points but there's really no alternative to opening blink vs t and oracle vs z. Yeah the one path protoss has is really strong, but there's almost no alternatives that aren't just made of paper and fall over unless you are significantly better than your opponent. Void rays and colossus suck. Disruptor is slow boom or bust and now lost its one job as marauder counter in pvt. It's basically always going to wind up archon/ht immortal + transition into skytoss. Only Maxpax can play heavy gateway and win anything, no one else in the world can. They wanna bitch about the units that make that core tech path strong, but give us 0 viable alternatives. It's boring seeing every game play out the same way
@@drtony1000 from a nerf standpoint yeah, zerg got hit harder in the matchup this patch. we're talking about how toss has been nerfed over the course of several patches leading to this one where thanks to several nerfs there's only one viable macro opening tech path vs zerg (Stargate) and how boring it makes the matchup. because you have to open Stargate now balance changes like spore buff are around making sure oracles don't do significant harassment, which is creating a gamestate where most zvp matches play out the same which is boring af. Depending on map its so painfully early to have to send probe to try and block natural after mineral cost change which means 90% of games are just Stargate expand, sending in oracles to get 1-2 drones then having to fly out immediately cuz spore change and zerg getting their natural so it's close for queens to move between both bases Then you have to wait for shield regen to do anything at all. This reduced harassment rate means zergs will have more stuff to throw at you if you're taking a 3rd so often times you just have to bring oracles back home quickly. Only after your 3rd is up do you begin to get to make any real choices on tech/unit comp. It's just not interesting to feel like the first interesting choices you get to make comes after 6 minutes of gameplay has already gone by in every game of pvz
I agree that the ghost should have a light tag. It's ridiculous how beefy it is for a spellcaster, much less a spellcaster that has a fairly decent auto-attack. It can get cloak, it can EMP, it can call down nukes, it has snipe, and it has a decent auto-attack... AND it's fairly tanky? That's too much stuff for one unit.
I've been saying this for years and couldn't agree more. It's a caster, it has high DPS and great spells, it's easy to micro, it can stealth and reveal cloaked units... And it can face tank a baneling? It has better sustain than a marine? It's broken and it amazes me that simple tag change seems to be off the table.
@@kaiser2261 It would likely lead to Terrans scanning ahead of their army (last I checked they usually have enough orbitals to make this work) or, god forbid, keeping a Raven somewhere other than the corner behind the opponent's base.
it's also kind of crazy that Ghost Academy only costs 150/50 and builds in 29 seconds. Compare that to: Fleet Beacon - 300/200, 43 seconds Dark Shrine - 150/150, ~71 seconds~ Edit: Come to think of it, Terran structures beyond CC, Barracks, and Engineering Bay are all either 50 or 100 gas aside from the one exception, Fusion Core - 150, but then every Protoss structure beyond Nexus, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, and Forge costs 100 to 200 gas, and they all seem to take longer to build by about 20 - 40%, lol
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 it‘s bc you can crono boost workers and scale faster. simple maths. but i see where you are coming from, it seems confusing at first for a noob.
My trust on the balance council is pretty low after the recent patches. From the way Lambo talks about these changes, it feel like everyone is just pitching in random ideas that they care about instead of the game overall. I get this is what we have rn but I hate how theres no accountability and no focus for these things. I feel like everyone should agree on the direction of the patch or what the patch is trying to address first, and then have everyone make sure the changes suggested actually fits the goal. Maybe then the patch note wouldnt feel so random.
I personally think the hydra lunge is a super weak hive upgrade. What if they coupled it with a regeneration buff. Every time it is used each hydra doubles or triples their regular regeneration buff for the ten second cool down. This would be relatively minor buff making their standard regeneration of 3.8 hp for ten seconds give 7.6 or 11.4 This would give hydras a little more staying power late game.
I think the TvP problem is most prevalent in later midgame when ghost marauder 2-2 bio starts to not lose engagements without the terran blundering - a decent solution would be to give the sentry no energy, but cooldowns instead like with the mothership, 2 charges on forcefields and a cooldown time reflecting the energy needed. That way sentries don't become entirely useless once the first ghost spawns, protoss can make use of zealots again through forcefields - the strength of marauders is massively decreased.
I actually really like the suggestion for the emp to be slow exanding, so Protoss got a chance to micro against it. Mybe something to try to if current nerf doesnt work
I think EMP makes it so they can't balance the late game armies - precisely because it's basically unavoidable. For PvT they'd have to make P WITHOUT SHIELDS be on par with T. Then for PvZ then have to make P WITH SHIELDS be on par with Z. And then of course you need ZvT to be balanced as well. Just can't satisfy all three criteria when the strength of Protoss changes so dramatically in one matchup.
Congrats on the growing channel! Good to hear support for making changes. Without change the game will lose its audience, at which point the pros don't have any money to play for. It sounds like many pros don't consider this or believe it.
My general feel as a spectator watching all of this is that the balance council suffers a lot from the mentality of the players involved because the dominant personality types show through in the balance council changes. For example, Terran gets big changes like cyclone, salvage, liberator, the slimming down of the Raven, and so on. They seem to be far more willing to do changes just because. With Protoss, they don't like how certain things play but aren't willing to do big changes aside "We really don't like this so we're going to remove it. I guess we have to give them something in return". Whether they stuck or not, those Terran changes I don't think were made from a perspective that the unit was a problem and needed an element removed. If you want Protoss to perform better at pro level but worse at lower levels, you can't achieve that by small tweaks. They keep trying to nerf the disruptor which hasn't worked out that well. Do with the disruptor what was done with the cyclone, a full on retooling. Maybe it can just be fundamentally different. For the disruptor, maybe you make it throw really fast, so fast that even Clem can't reliably dodge it but instead of just exploding, it does damage over time. That way it isn't an all or nothing but something that needs to be microed and an opponent doing micro against it taxes the Protoss micro that much more. It prevents the split second boom issue and leaves it as something that benefits from micro on each side, but shrinks the gap in performance when being used against the best vs those who are still good but not the best micro players. Whatever. The point is that if you don't like the disruptor, do something about it. Or nerf it down and give them something else. If the issue is ladder vs pro level, nerf elements that involve less micro and buff elements that require more micro. Or buff elements that reward meticulous macro. I don't know what the answer is but it certainly isn't going to get fixed by tweaking the build time or research time of some stuff by a little. That might make a difference at the pro level but it isn't going to fix that ladder issue. Getting the two more in line with each other makes the buffing and nerfing way easier.
I like your idea of a disruptor design overhaul. I imagine something with much lesser damage but faster and spammable would work better, maybe half the cooldown, 1/3 the damage and 3x the speed, would make both using and defending against less punishing while taxing the micro on both sides more constantly but less "lost because looked away for 1 second".
The personality of the players also matters. Like look at Harstem - great creator, love watching his stuff, but if you suggest any protoss buffs - despite it being his primary race, he will always find 10 reasons why that would be overpowered. It feels like there is noone that fears protoss buffs more than the protoss players, so if Protoss players don't suggest protoss buffs, it's not that weird we aren't getting many of those
@@RancorSnp just compare protoss POV with zerg or terran POV. it‘s like slow motion ngl. even herO‘s POV is slowly asf compred to serral, maru, reynor, clem, shin & the list goes on.. just because one race has the worst pro‘s doesn‘t mean you have to buff the race into the sky.
@@invoangelus My idea was a step a bit beyond that. Quickening the pace of the disruptors would make them very hard to dodge but make the damage consistent but would sort of remove the ability to micro against it as triple speed is a lot. Changing it to damage over time changes the goal of each player. Making it faster would make it impossible to dodge but in exchange, Protoss would be aiming to hold the nova in contact with the enemy for as long as possible and the enemy would be wanting to do splits to reduce that damage and change directions to confuse the Protoss player. Higher technical damage ceiling against a player who is totally ignoring it but lower, more consistent damage against an opponent who is doing micro and makes micro from both sides still matter without being an all or nothing.
@@NevarKanzaki DOT damage is a good idea too that should be tested. My only gripe is that it overlaps too much with storm, with being a movable channeled storm. I agree 3x move speed is too fast, was just throwing a number out. I think the move speed increase, if any, should be 1.25x - 1.5x at most. Ignoring the speed for a moment, I imagine a lower cd, lower dmg, more spammable disruptor would make it ideal for opponents to force an engagement, eating 1 volley in the process, rather than take multiple hits kiting in and out. Playing against the current version means having to wait until all disruptors are on cd without much counterplay other than catching them off guard. The ideal style for protoss on the other hand, is to avoid engagements and make shots whenever possible, letting the disruptor fill a similar role to siege tanks and lurkers but be more mobile and harder to aim.
I agree with the light tag on the ghost. It's too good against everything. Now it's too good against everything but you'll have a little bit less of them. I prefer in my strategy game that things have counters. Do terrans need to think in late game TvZ or making ghost is always the answer ?
It counters every Zerg unit and every protoss unit (EMP removing shields) aswell as all spellcasters. The Unit needs a rework. I suggest removing range of EMP and make reduce maximum energy
concussive shells is the only thing that stops terran from losing in alot of the situations. So no. It should absolutely not be removed. There is a possibility to nerf it's costs though, I always thought that it should cost more resources, and perhaps longer research time. But it should not be removed.
In which situations is the concussive shell overpowered? Or which situations would benefit from a modification on concussive research time and / or cost?
That the Disruptor no longer one-hits marauders, but because of the damage change to shield still one-shots bersersk with friendly fire is the ultimate "screw you" move...
@@mothrahlurker788 Oh please, like you have NEVER seen zealots get hit by disruptors even on the highest level... It does not happen constantly of course, but it does happen. And that they made sure that in the (few) instancec when it DOES happen, the Zealot gets still one-shoted seems absurd to me.
@@wedgeantilles8575 Sure it happens but it's so exceedingly rare that you can't seriously argue that it takes priority over disruptors in PvP being viable.
Thanks for your comments and your insights. Now going to watch HSC live at TakeTV's bar is going to be much more of a treat! Also, what you said in the beginning means that even Serral, Reynor and Clem are in the balance council? What about the Koreans? Waiting your video about Protoss Eagerly!!
@@bobyy6557you’re not making a lot of sense lol. If anything Serral has to some degree been the bane of the zerg community; there was a period of time when zerg was relentlessly nerfed to stop his dominance
@@eliotyye Am I? I see comments saying we should bring back infested terrans, as if they weren't op. Don't complain so hard after Serral loses just one tourney. Thought y'all said he's the GOAT, he should be able to bounce back and win the next tourney, right?
Regardless of balance it does feel a little silly to me that energy overcharge makes oracle openers which were already the standard even stronger. I wonder if the oracle itself should actually be nerfed. People talk about how the cyclone limited build variety. But that is exactly what the oracle is doing in ZvP aswell. It limits both zergs and protoss build options in the matchup.
Not really, what are you going to do as zerg differently if some other opener other than oracles were coming? Make fewer queens? Not make spores? You need to make spores anyway because of potential DTs. Zerg has such a powerful advantage in the midgame as it is.
@@Linklegacy77 Early aggression from the zerg feels a little limited when oracles have infinite energy and can zap all the lings. But also from the protoss side because the oracle is so good at what it does you don't really see any opener other than stargate. It would actually be nice to see some DT openers or idk fast robo or anything else really. I doubt we'd see much mutalisks regardless but if the protoss doesn't already have a stargate build then..maybe? In general I think we could do with a little more variety in the matchup.
Well it's obvious you are low level because you think you make spore 'incase' there are dts as zerg. There is a protocol to follow with proper scouting and you don't just waste money on spores incase something might happen. You can't do any early aggression as zerg against Oracle's unless it's a committed all in because zerg has nothing that shoots up besides queens on hatch tech. Any early aggressive options are a giant gamble hoping the first Oracle moves straight across the map and doesn't see you moving to their base or is a fully committed all in.
I agree. At least 80% of the P openers in PvZ looked really similar - basically it felt like the big question was "Will he build 2 Oracles or 3?" And now they effectively buffed Oracle openers and actually weakened the main Robo units... And the energy ability feels like it makes zerg all-ins less viable... so I'm expecting the first 6 to 7 minutes of every ZvP to look even more similar than before.
EMP shouldnt remove Shields. Cant change my mind. A spell that not only removes energy and makes spellcasters useless, no even remove 50% of all Protoss HP(making Archons komplett useless, a high Gas unit) making it a counter to EVERY Unit a protoss can build
Mothership definitely feels way too strong now. As for the Ghost nerf; I think with how good the unit currently is in every regard, 3 supply are absolutely justified, but I agree that it would be better to tackle the actual problem, namely that it just has too strong of an auto-attack and too much HP for what should be a caster unit. For 2 supply I think it at least deserves -50HP.
Just going to cut and paste my response to another comment on this video that was saying pretty much exactly the same thing that you are: It costs 400/400, 8 supply, takes 89 seconds to build, requires a goddamn Fleet Beacon, is large as fuck & relatively slow, and you can only have ONE. It's absolutely, unequivocally NOT OVERPOWERED. Can we just be honest and not act like this change will be the reason anyone will ever lose a ZvP or TvP past, like, Silver League?
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 So he is actively lying in his video. No idea why you even watch it then (well, you probably didn't), if you think he is just lying anyway, but here you are...
@wedgeantilles8575 I never accused him of lying, fuck right off with that. People can be influenced by their biases or have a criticism that comes from a different perspective that I can still disagree with. Let's just end this unproductive conversation right here.
Lambo what do you think about giving Colossus either 50 shields more(but making it slower to build) or giving it +1 attack against nonlight so it is better against Marauders.
Mothership damage is one of the most overlooked thing this patch. If there are 4 targets to hit, Mothership effectively does the damage of 2 Carriers/16 Interceptors and does not lose DPS to losing intercepters (assuming no overkill). These attacks are also extremely good at shaving off units which will reduce the critical mass of an army. This means that on top of 3 good spells, it is already a good combat unit for its cost (400/400 for 2 Carriers worth of damage and a little bit over 1 Carrier of HP is really worth it). I'm not implying this should be nerfed or if it's too good, but it is something that seems to be largely ignored.
A unit that has at least 3 "good" spells, a decent auto attack and is tanky. This sounds familiar... I'm not implying anything either, just pointing out a similarity.
It costs 400/400, 8 supply, takes 89 seconds to build, requires a goddamn Fleet Beacon, is large as fuck & relatively slow, and you can only have ONE. It's absolutely, unequivocally NOT OVERPOWERED. Can we just be honest and not act like this change will be the reason anyone will ever lose a ZvP or TvP past, like, Silver League?
Yeah, people do overlook that Mothership is actually able to contribute something in combat now, I honestly still would like it to be a bit stronger, make it the real core unit of the late game fleet, but there's at least SOME combat use of it now. the Extremely needed immunity to viper yoink should also help out a lot
I think the lategame of ZvP wouldnt be so horrible if Corruptors werent such a bad unit. In all of Starcraft, corruptors are the only unit that become >a negative< to you once they've done their job. Like any zerg unit, they are only good in large numbers so you are forced to make a critical mass of them whenever they come into play. They arent particularly cheap, but they do a decent job once they are in the air. That being said, IF the zerg wins the air fight, they become dead weight. Your only choice as a zerg player is to either kill them and make room for other units, or clunkily play around their abysmally bad caustic spit ability. Oh, right.. you can also turn them into broodlords, which doubles their cost and doesnt get you a very good unit as a result. At least banelings have the decency to die once they've been used. Not corruptors, tho. Congrats on countering the enemy strategically with the units in your arsenal. Now get punished for that good decision with having X amount of supply being near worthless. You invested too much into them to just kill them and free that supply, and if you wanna get more use out of them, how about investing a little more? Oops..the unit they turn into is purposefully bugged to not perform well at its max range -- where its primarily used! No wonder no zerg wants to go into the lategame against toss and face the 'golden fleet'. You lose even if you win. Lastly, about TvZ , instead of giving ghost a light tag (which would only make it more vulnerable to banelings -- a unit that is already so cost ineficient) how about giving the Snipe a 50% dmg reduction against ? Its crazy to me that an armored behemoth like the Ultra will take repeated tank shots to the face and keep going, but the smaller bullets of a ghost will down it. Same for Broodlords. Revert the 3 supply change, but actually put some thought into the EMP and Snipe spells.
the mothership change is good, anything else is bad. ghosts should be flimsy and barely deal damage. let them be 2 supply, but give them a light tag and remove their bonus damage against light. what they should be doing is reducing the vikings range and pr damage against massive, because it counters everything protoss has and specifically counters collosus too hard. its ridiculous for 10 vikings to basically nullify any number of collosus, and they can kill them without being attacked, and there is no way to protect them. they also win cost for cost against tempests ,void rays and pheonixes, which forces protoss into a playing gateway disruptor against bio lib, which it can not at all fight directly. basically the viking makes sure that you cannot build any direct counter to libs or bio, and are forced to rely on disruptor shots.
I would like to see an aoe robo (no bay) unit for early/mid game. Like replace the disruptor with the new unit, that has an auto aoe attack, and an ability with a CD, like the disputors nova, but not as strong. Personally I imagine this unit always as the reaver, but thats just because I love the design :D Imagine a speed upgrade where it start rolling :D
Protoss player here, Since mothership cannot be abducted, what about making it able to be contaminated? It’d give Zerg another way to counter it slight without making it too much of a glass unit again. Gives them time to disengage or time to get other units in place. My only concern would be spamming it on the mothership, so maybe make it where it cannot be contaminated back to back, have some kind of time before it could be contaminated again.
The bad part is that you need to add so many exceptions to game rules, where ideally you have none. This unit is already unabductable, unneurable, and now you propose to make it contaminatable. That's not how game should work imo
How is it players that make money from tournaments are allowed any input on patches? Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching pro games and their opinions on the game but it shouldn't matter the instant money and livelihood is involved
Because there isn't really an alternative. Blizzard is no longer involved so we either have a balance council or no balance changes at all. As questionable as some changes have been..is it better than nothing? Yeah probably.
@luckygozer one alternative is to simply use input from the entire community instead of very few players who make money off the game. Seems pretty simple to me
The issue is Lambo what your saying is the best players are simply not playing Protoss, if that is the case the changes need to be strong enough to make the best players wish to swap race. Starcraft 2 is at its very worst right now its far from its glory days, people from all 3 races must be winning major events for the perception of how bad the balance is to alter. The game needs to be competitive. Protoss are not a viable race the results prove it to be so. If you look at any other sport or esport measures are in place to make sure that one team does not always win everything even if they are the best team. Dark and Byun both make massive mistakes in almost every game and yet they still win games, when Hero makes a similar mistake he losses, that is because Protoss requires the player to be better than their opponent and not to make mistakes. Its clearly a balance problem.
thanks for your insight into the patch and balance council. I'm looking forward to the Toss video. As casual Zerg I am not convinced of the patch. as you say focus should be TvP not PvZ. And they don't do anything about turtle toss either.
39:35 That's not entirely accurate. With +3 attack, an Immortal can indeed 3-shot a Lurker, since Lurkers have 1 base armour, meaning the Immortal will do 64 damage on each attack. However, if the Zerg player has researched +1 Carapace, which is incredibly likely by the time Protoss has +3 Ground Attack, then Immortals will only be able to 4-shot them.
I agree on the pvt and the disruptor changes. I (as a toss) really don't enjoy the disruptor. We have to rely on it in pvt, but its just frustrating. So i like the direction, but man you need some compensation for them AND immortals getting nerfed
I think the auto attack for the ghost needs to be worse and it needs a light tag. Lots of spell casters have amazing spells but almost every one can be deleted with a soft breeze, except the ghost. The problem with EMP is that Terrans die without it but crush with it. Damage over time makes the most sense, like storm, or decrease the radius/damage and make it a slower projectile
Ya you just mutate the mutalisks into tatedlisks. And they can have a 60 second timer. If you don’t use them by then they explode where they are for friendly fire.
As someone who's pretty much strictly been a viewer and hasn't played for quite some time, I think each of these balance council patches makes me less and less interested in watching, especially for pro matches. It seems pros are balancing the game either in favor of their race, or focusing patches to improve consistency, which is terrible for the longterm health of the game as more consistent play => more figured out balance => matches being more samey and boring to watch. Inconsistency creates a lot more chance for upsets so the top players can shift around from tournament to tournament, and crazy strats that are hard or inconsistent to get off but go super hard when they do see success are what makes tournaments interesting. Probably the best thing the balance team could do if they care about the longterm profitability of their job is to introduce seasons in SC2 balance scene by making a major upset in balance with lots of crazy changes that are meant to totally shake things up, and maybe 1-2 followups to tone down some extremely op strats that come from these changes, then just let the pros figure out how to win for a while before moving on to another season where similarly crazy changes go through. Seeing new units or upgrades rom the campaigns or coop, as well as drastic changes to existing units, these kind of things I believe would usher in an era of tournaments that viewers will be consistently interested in seeing as every tournament will feel drastically different to watch than the last. Pro players would also have to get a lot less comfortable with one particular status quo and I think pros that have exceptional strategizing and mechanical skill, as well as strong play with alt races, will really start to stand out and dominate players that have completely mastered the current meta because of their domination of the meta, repeatedly push back against major upset balance changes.
Mostly watched from the timestamp from the reddit post, but I can't help but feel that everyone is missing a couple of important points with this patch: 1: The map pool is changing in favor of Zerg. 2: Zerg winrates in top tournaments are very high and favorable in both matchups, and perhaps most importantly have a more favorable winrate in ZvP than Terran does in TvP. I feel like this is being mostly overlooked. I get that Protoss pros have a perception that is obviously valid, but to what extent should it be taken at face value? Protoss has just barely 40% winrate in PvZ (again in top tournaments), if Protoss won literally zero games but Protoss players said the matchup was fine, do we not act? I'm just saying, it feels like everyone is really zeroing in on Terran being OP, when I think Zerg is pretty clearly the strongest race at the top at least, with Protoss mostly just being weak in both matchups and in need of some help.
If you look at every single specific change (besides the reluctant ghost nerf and building armor) it’s either beneficial for Terran or at the very least doesn’t affect them too negatively. Buff the mothership massively-not really a Terran problem but massively an issue for Zerg. Downgrade the immortal/disruptor-hugely beneficial for Terran and a bit of a tiny help for Zerg. Tempest change is also great for Terran vs Vikings or BCs (air range nerf) and the ONE thing they had to give up the commentary is extremely reluctant. Get these Terran-biased pros and replace them with Pig, winter, and Lowko and let the community lead the way. This balance council is NOT working
It's actually crazy to me how most of the community thinks they now better. How they watch lowko or artosis and are like "so true, -5hp on banes made zerg unplayable, so true". Honestly, you prob nevers broke above 5k mmr. Lowko or winter havent played a game in years and never got close to the top either. I personaly can't even watch lowko anymore, kus after a few years watching HarstemCast, I can see that lowkos's commentary on games just tends to miss important points and misinterpret other. I'm no expert in the game, and thus I don't belive I have my word to say on how it should be balanced. It's actually crazy that the concil has to add things just to feed the masses. Yes, they should've thought of an actual nerf for Ghost, but if they didn't, then it should wait next patch, not be changed in a hurry.
@@eragonball4298 this argument is pretty damn stupid since 90% of the players haven't reached Masters or GM. pandering to professionals and ignoring the community of casual players is a pretty good way to kill the game. we may not know the specifics of build orders and timing attacks, but we sure as hell see that mass Ghost and Skytoss is a big issue.
Im a nobody, but Id still like to comment. I agree with pretty much everything but the ghost take. I dont mean to say it isnt a nerf but I think the strength of the nerf is being overstated. I think it will have a little impact on the start of the lategame where Terran begins building the ghosts and that time when Terran doesnt have a good orbital count. But as soon as they do I think we will see the same ghost count but lower scv counts since mules will make up the difference. I do agree that this change will also not incentivize Terran to move out but I also dont think making the ghost squishier will incentivize that either. Personally I think if we nerfed snipe further but then buffed it in a completely different way than ever it would meet the requirements the council is maybe going for? Changes such as: - Snipe damage change to 25 (+50 vs Psionic) OR 50 (+25 vs Psionic) This leaves spellcasters at 2 shots. - Snipe is uninterruptible (fungal, or ANY other damage, no longer cancels it) The damage nerf reduced the power of the turtle camping despite the guaranteed snipe, BUT it also means an infestor hail mary isnt necessary in an offensive or defensive position to win a fight in the late game. At the same time it also means if terran defends them well they have alot of potential since fungal is no longer a threat to stop damage from snipe. It lowers the defensive strength but elevates its aggressive potential. Obviously Im not a designer and maybe you could also make changes to its tags to make up for something like this, or if its too weak you could tinker with the leash range again. Ect. Regardless, great video! Love it!
why would you even snipe with that little dmg. make fungal growth gain hp for enemy units or reducing nova dmg to 1 seems similar changes imo. nonsense period.
@ That’s why I mentioned tinkering with the change and its numbers to address it if is too weak. Maybe a base damage set at 75 instead. The issue is with the damage being high and uninterruptible it becomes too much damage for free. That’s why Terran turtles because in a defensive position they know that there isn’t a single infestor sharking around their army that will fungal their ghosts and stop every snipe. If they move out they risk that situation plus the death of every ghost. You could also do other things like reverting it back to 2 supply so you can have a few more ghosts earlier on to make up for the damage. You could also slightly nerf Ultra HP so that the lower sniper damage is compensated against Zerg. This would also be an inadvertent buff for PvZ given the immortal nerf so that could be good or bad. There are many options and ideas you could implement to make this change good. My goal was to get the idea across on how to make the ghost more viable offensively and make it not game ending for Terran if they choose to be aggressive but also lower the power of its turtle potential. What would your suggestion be to incentivize Terrans to be a bit more aggressive, and to make it a bit more viable, in the late game and lower the strength of turtling like the council wants?
@@alexcostin3448 the changes i would propose depend on whether you want to make changes for professional play or for the majority of the player base (basically n00bz). this would differ a lot imo
So far Lambo is the only high lvl zerg to not think the ghost should be a 3 supply unit that I've seem. As a noob watcher it's pretty annoying to see a hyper effective army completely spreaded around the map murdering masses of units from the enemy both zerg and protoss because of a single unit that does everything, but maybe other changes to it could be better.
I don't perosnally care that people were upset by the immortal nerf. As a dia 3 zerg player, I really struggled against mass immortal archon zealot. I struggled to get vipers out maybe because my APM is too low but still. What else can I make? Lings? They get evapoated by archon zealot.
I can tell you from mid diamond and below mothership especially rushing it is just absolutely fkn broken. haven't bothered to play more then 3 games and currently my mommy ship is sitting at a beautiful roughly 150+kills and 1 death.
The balance council is actively killing this game off. At this point so much damage has been done, that I don't see the game and the community recovering. I think the best thing would be to restore the game to the version before the council did their first patch and leave it that way. Balance by changing maps.
What if the mommaship, beeing so bulky and all, cod only be anducted halfway, so you need 2 viper to pull it to your army, but can still be countered. Or even it also pulls the viper, so they meet in the middle. Losing a viper in the process is still cheaper than switching to corruptor
Regarding the Protoss being non-viable ... Statistically if there's 3 balanced races and we have 9 tournaments each race should win 3 tournaments, assuming equal skill. Looking at things from purely a statistical perspective, the current results are a statistical anomaly that heavily suggests there are issues with Protoss at pro level.
i think a better nerf to use on the ghost is nerfing EMP to be a flat damage rather then a full shield and energy delete ability flat damage should be 50-75 the reason is this does enough damage to effect spell caster energy to prevent spell casting and delete most or all of gateway unit shields while not deleting all the shields on higher tier units like carriers and colossus this means ghost need to use more EMP to delete the enemy shields or energy meaning you have less snipes to use they could also increase the energy needed to snipe in combination with this to help reduce the amount of snipes ghosts can use against zergs without having to increase the ghost supply my thinking is you can reduce the effectiveness of the unit spell casting rather then forcing the player to have less of them in the army comp and you will achieve a similar result
Glad that at least all pro players I've heard understand that MS change is a little bit bullshit. It's insane to me that literally no one else sees that making a unit literally immortal just because it's expensive is wrong. Why not nerf abducts against MS in some other way, like drastically reduce pull force so you'd need to use 5-6 abducts over 5 seconds to kill it. Right now there's just no counterplay, and people think it's good. If protoss player have more than 3 braincells MS is just unkillable without overcommitment with corruptors into storms and archons, which always loses you a game if you're not far ahead.
100 Energy is often enough to completely turn a fight around especially from Storms and Oracle Stasis. It "feels" underwhelming and maybe in the hands of someone who isn't very good at the game, it is. But it is absolutely really, really good and way more versatile than Battery Overcharge which can only be used for defense. This is conceptually a correct move by rewarding meaningful decision and good control. (I'm a Protoss player in case people want to play the race propaganda card)
Agreed, except that for someone to “completely turn a fight around,” with this ability they would have to be better than very good. Now it requires two extra levels of micro. This is meant for pro scene imo.
The apduct change will mainly make late game battels way worse... Now were are wating for the toss to fall asleep or the zerg inting into archons or storm and losing. Maybe there are some freaks of nature that enjoy that but for me it seems "not that great of an idea".
It was always clear that not protoss itself is bad, only the players are worse than terrans and zergs.^^ It always has been that way. Maps definitely have a big impact on balance as well. Maps should be rotated more often, I agree.
Refreshing to hear some highly insightful, pro takes on the patch. I swear Reddit Starcraft is overtaken by salty platinum Protosses. (They're talking about how OP Marauders are)
How about a video with regards to the worker start. A trend takes conversations there now, started with Artosis, then PiG and Harstem, etc. Did the 12 worker start actually made things more predictable, removed too much variety and killed tech builds, so now its all about taking 4-5 bases and going from there. Or is it simply about the skill level getting higher no matter the start. In case of the later, does the 12 worker start make builds and playstyles easier to master as there is less variety in the early game, which kind of made these monsters like Serrall and maru who can take the game from the early stage through every stage of the game, or was it bound to happen and despite prerhaps more varied openers such players would have evolved by now anyway.
In my opinion u should reform u council work. Pro players should show the problems, the direction, and other people should think how to change and fix it. For example - "I think the turtle style is bad, we should some how change this meta". Sometimes even masteplayers or diamond players can tell how to change this game to cure this. This game is very mechanical and being pro player not making people to be good patchmakers. And it work both way. U don't need to be a airplane pilot to be his constructor. Pls tell people some e-mail where to wright there solutions and any other thoughts, it would be great.
As many people wrote. Pro players should not be part of the patch decisions. Pro players should adjust when patch comes. These patches are just dick measuring among 3 races with 1 mm changes
Pro players have always been a part of patch decisions, since the game first released. It's just that now there aren't any actual devs doing the balance so the pro players are the only ones left to work on it
HSC was painful to watch. It was fun to have fun along with you guys because it seemed that you had a great time but as soon technical problems and banter stopped and the games started - I lost interest. Didn't even bothered to watch play-offs.
Feels weird huh he doesnt like to make units to a specific counter to mothership its annoying but we terrans have to make specific counter to lurkers and ultralisk or at P vikings for Colosus or mass zealot feels good right forcing something out of you that what terrans lack in this patch forcing a tech and strategy to zerg or Protoss player .
Mothership buff isnt as good as bad immortal nerf. We need immortals a lot more often than this 100dmg beam. Dont matter how much you buff mothership its most expensive unit with 400/400 cost that cost increase from 300/300 is also nerf a little.
Zerg had it too easy against Skytoss. Gotta nerf queen and hydras. Also nerfing entire early game in the process just so Toss doesnt accidentaly die early.
Queens nerf is horrible. It was hard to defence 1000 of terrans and protoss all in pushes, and now it became even worth. It's very silly. And economic of zergs because totally broken.
Im not as high level as you but at 4.8k every time I try to play Zerg, it just feels extremely dirty with these changes. My queens are late, my injects are no longer synced correctly. I can't take a third because my queen is 3 sec late and takes forever to get to these third base locations to shoo reapers. I have one less queen by the time two banshees/oracle shows up to defend which is huge. It just doesn't feel good playing vs equally skilled players because I feel like my race isn't equal to Terran/Toss anymore. Won't be playing this patch and I consider Zerg dead from this game outside of Pro players. Tried 25 games and saw 2 other zergs so Im not the only one with this sentiment.
@@MrSpleenface What build timing? The gate/cybercore has been the same timing for a long time. Hell, yall even got quicker stalkers this patch. Queens are our larvae production, so it would be like changing how long till you get warp gate.
@ In the last few years we’ve had multiple gateway unit timings changed as well as cost changes to multiple units and structures, not to mention all the void ray changes
@@MrSpleenface None of that changes your basis for warping in units through. Certainly not as bad as zerg losing 6 workers and 4 larvae by the time they make their 8th queen.
@@Konranjyoutai Warp Gate only kicks in 3 minutes into the game (or later). When you have like 3 units total to keep yourself alive in the early game, their timing and costs matter a LOT. I have no idea how you got to "6 workers and 4 larvae" being the "loss" to the cost increase of queens, if you build 2 hatches and 8 queens, you would be down 150 minerals, which would be 3 workers compared to pre-patch, but your hatches start (and therefore also finish) faster, your first queen would come out at the same time, and your second would only be slightly delayed. But either way, the point I was making is that the hit to your macro is coming primarily from your mistiming, not the actual raw number changes. Serral isn't down 6 workers and 4 larvae at the 5 minute mark. Not because he's an inhuman freak who can somehow squeeze 300 extra minerals out of the same build order in 5 minutes, but because he played enough games on the PTR to adjust his builds to the new reality.
People are mass hatching everywhere. Mass hatch is a legit strategy now. You can quadruple hatch, proxy hatch. It's the Hatch patch. Protoss have been removed from the game. They can double macro hatch. They can do everything.
There is also something to be said for MaxPax not playing offline tournaments. Zerg results would quite different if, say, Serral or Reynor didn't play offline, and terran results if Clem or Maru didn't play offline. If you're looking at top-8 finishes and you have 3 races, obviously not having a top-2 player for one race in the tournament is going to make that race look worse.
If there was no Clem or Maru participating, terran still have solid roster to be in top-4: Byun, Cure, Oliveira, even Gumiho are capable of getting there. For zerg it's Dark, Solar, Shin possibly. Every race has a roster of like 5 contenders, and only protoss has 2. Idk if it does have something to do with balance, but that's a fact.
i think the issue is that protoss isn't allowed to beat a composition outright because it already does with one unit already, the immortal. if they rework the immortal then every other protoss unit can be buffed because the immortal do have monopoly against most armored ground units, everything except warpgate units because being able to warp in units is too strong otherwise. essentially protoss is made to have weaknesses because it would be too crazy otherwise, i mean it's either reworking immortals or removing warp gates.
Pls, somebody tell him that cyclones now are totally broken. They just killing everything in ZvT from o MMR to 5,5 MMR at least. It's not fun, fix it as soon as possible. Or soon there will be Serral, Lambo, MaxPax and 197 terrans in GML 🤣
Queen nerf aswell as Ghost nerf very needed. Both are just spammable units that are good in nearly any szenario. Ghost nerf just not big enough. Mothership feels to power full (should lower DMG output)
34:45 Ok, can the existence of T in TvP matchup not be a spoiler then? It's boring to WATCH. And if less people watch - less money is on the line for pros, it's not like blizzard is sponsoring tournaments. I want to see toss make it to..... anywhere.
We’re gonna see so many games where zergs just lose all their corrupters and the whole game bc they got even somewhat close to all the splash damage or arachons and high Templar abduct is literally one of 2 things that keeps Zerg relevant in the late game against Protoss so I think it’s a fair point to make
@@GHOST445-ej4on maybe they should instead slowly abduct the splash damage before committing then? Instead of doing it in a single ability? Also why is that they MUST destroy the mother ship before the fight? It's decent, but it's not THAT strong to be worth throwing away all of your army to target it down, it no longer provides permanent invisibility (not to mention even if they did there's no Zerg that moves their army without 10 overseers in it)
@@RancorSnp high templar feedback outranges abduct so theoretically this is impossible which was why it was fine for abduct to work on any unit as its a mistake from the toss allowing that
ZvP is now Protoss favored. Oracles are now a nightmare for Zergs. And I think it was a mistake to give yoink immunity to mothership. The yoink range should've be cut to 1\3 for mothership and on top of that the Viper should yoink itself toward the mothership. That would be fair.
Wasn't there a bug that mothership damage on the PTR was doing like 4x more damage than it was supposed to? maybe that's why you were finding it was too powerful
zerg evo upgrades should only go to level 2, this way zerg can get higher flyer upgrades like level 4 to make up for their ground being OP and their Flyers being paper
From a ZvP perspective, what I don't like about the new patch is that it feels Protoss are forced even more into going Stargate. Because of the spores they'll have less games where they kill a lot of workers but they have much defense against all-ins. The net result... even more games of ZvP that look very samey at the start.
unbiased comment, if more players were like you including pros, sc2 would have been in a better place
I've been trying to explain this to people but no one wants to hear it. For all the people who complain about how easy toss is on the ladder, there's really just 2 builds viable for zvp and pvt. Those builds are really strong and naturally stage your average toss player into the mid/ late game really well which leads to good ladder consistency in farming points but there's really no alternative to opening blink vs t and oracle vs z. Yeah the one path protoss has is really strong, but there's almost no alternatives that aren't just made of paper and fall over unless you are significantly better than your opponent. Void rays and colossus suck. Disruptor is slow boom or bust and now lost its one job as marauder counter in pvt. It's basically always going to wind up archon/ht immortal + transition into skytoss. Only Maxpax can play heavy gateway and win anything, no one else in the world can. They wanna bitch about the units that make that core tech path strong, but give us 0 viable alternatives. It's boring seeing every game play out the same way
Think this patch was worse for zerg actually: ultra worse, hydra worse, queens worse, mothership no counterplay
@@drtony1000 from a nerf standpoint yeah, zerg got hit harder in the matchup this patch. we're talking about how toss has been nerfed over the course of several patches leading to this one where thanks to several nerfs there's only one viable macro opening tech path vs zerg (Stargate) and how boring it makes the matchup. because you have to open Stargate now balance changes like spore buff are around making sure oracles don't do significant harassment, which is creating a gamestate where most zvp matches play out the same which is boring af. Depending on map its so painfully early to have to send probe to try and block natural after mineral cost change which means 90% of games are just Stargate expand, sending in oracles to get 1-2 drones then having to fly out immediately cuz spore change and zerg getting their natural so it's close for queens to move between both bases Then you have to wait for shield regen to do anything at all. This reduced harassment rate means zergs will have more stuff to throw at you if you're taking a 3rd so often times you just have to bring oracles back home quickly. Only after your 3rd is up do you begin to get to make any real choices on tech/unit comp. It's just not interesting to feel like the first interesting choices you get to make comes after 6 minutes of gameplay has already gone by in every game of pvz
I agree that the ghost should have a light tag. It's ridiculous how beefy it is for a spellcaster, much less a spellcaster that has a fairly decent auto-attack. It can get cloak, it can EMP, it can call down nukes, it has snipe, and it has a decent auto-attack... AND it's fairly tanky? That's too much stuff for one unit.
I've been saying this for years and couldn't agree more. It's a caster, it has high DPS and great spells, it's easy to micro, it can stealth and reveal cloaked units... And it can face tank a baneling? It has better sustain than a marine?
It's broken and it amazes me that simple tag change seems to be off the table.
@@natecw4164because 3 burrowed banes would kill thousands of resources in a second. Your “brilliant idea” would be a complete balance failure.
@@kaiser2261 It would likely lead to Terrans scanning ahead of their army (last I checked they usually have enough orbitals to make this work) or, god forbid, keeping a Raven somewhere other than the corner behind the opponent's base.
it's also kind of crazy that Ghost Academy only costs 150/50 and builds in 29 seconds.
Compare that to:
Fleet Beacon - 300/200, 43 seconds
Dark Shrine - 150/150, ~71 seconds~
Edit: Come to think of it, Terran structures beyond CC, Barracks, and Engineering Bay are all either 50 or 100 gas aside from the one exception, Fusion Core - 150, but then every Protoss structure beyond Nexus, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, and Forge costs 100 to 200 gas, and they all seem to take longer to build by about 20 - 40%, lol
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 it‘s bc you can crono boost workers and scale faster. simple maths. but i see where you are coming from, it seems confusing at first for a noob.
My trust on the balance council is pretty low after the recent patches. From the way Lambo talks about these changes, it feel like everyone is just pitching in random ideas that they care about instead of the game overall. I get this is what we have rn but I hate how theres no accountability and no focus for these things.
I feel like everyone should agree on the direction of the patch or what the patch is trying to address first, and then have everyone make sure the changes suggested actually fits the goal. Maybe then the patch note wouldnt feel so random.
Thats a prescription for getting noting done, as they will never all agree on anything
They don't have to all agree. There should be one person in charge. It wouldn't work otherwise.
I personally think the hydra lunge is a super weak hive upgrade. What if they coupled it with a regeneration buff. Every time it is used each hydra doubles or triples their regular regeneration buff for the ten second cool down.
This would be relatively minor buff making their standard regeneration of 3.8 hp for ten seconds give 7.6 or 11.4 This would give hydras a little more staying power late game.
I think the TvP problem is most prevalent in later midgame when ghost marauder 2-2 bio starts to not lose engagements without the terran blundering - a decent solution would be to give the sentry no energy, but cooldowns instead like with the mothership, 2 charges on forcefields and a cooldown time reflecting the energy needed. That way sentries don't become entirely useless once the first ghost spawns, protoss can make use of zealots again through forcefields - the strength of marauders is massively decreased.
I actually really like the suggestion for the emp to be slow exanding, so Protoss got a chance to micro against it. Mybe something to try to if current nerf doesnt work
I think EMP makes it so they can't balance the late game armies - precisely because it's basically unavoidable. For PvT they'd have to make P WITHOUT SHIELDS be on par with T. Then for PvZ then have to make P WITH SHIELDS be on par with Z. And then of course you need ZvT to be balanced as well. Just can't satisfy all three criteria when the strength of Protoss changes so dramatically in one matchup.
this is pointless, as toss can't micro, they hardly can a-move the right way
The next patch should change 1 thing only: The balance council has been dissolved and replaced with professional game designers and casters.
Congrats on the growing channel! Good to hear support for making changes. Without change the game will lose its audience, at which point the pros don't have any money to play for. It sounds like many pros don't consider this or believe it.
My general feel as a spectator watching all of this is that the balance council suffers a lot from the mentality of the players involved because the dominant personality types show through in the balance council changes. For example, Terran gets big changes like cyclone, salvage, liberator, the slimming down of the Raven, and so on. They seem to be far more willing to do changes just because. With Protoss, they don't like how certain things play but aren't willing to do big changes aside "We really don't like this so we're going to remove it. I guess we have to give them something in return". Whether they stuck or not, those Terran changes I don't think were made from a perspective that the unit was a problem and needed an element removed. If you want Protoss to perform better at pro level but worse at lower levels, you can't achieve that by small tweaks. They keep trying to nerf the disruptor which hasn't worked out that well. Do with the disruptor what was done with the cyclone, a full on retooling. Maybe it can just be fundamentally different.
For the disruptor, maybe you make it throw really fast, so fast that even Clem can't reliably dodge it but instead of just exploding, it does damage over time. That way it isn't an all or nothing but something that needs to be microed and an opponent doing micro against it taxes the Protoss micro that much more. It prevents the split second boom issue and leaves it as something that benefits from micro on each side, but shrinks the gap in performance when being used against the best vs those who are still good but not the best micro players. Whatever. The point is that if you don't like the disruptor, do something about it. Or nerf it down and give them something else. If the issue is ladder vs pro level, nerf elements that involve less micro and buff elements that require more micro. Or buff elements that reward meticulous macro. I don't know what the answer is but it certainly isn't going to get fixed by tweaking the build time or research time of some stuff by a little. That might make a difference at the pro level but it isn't going to fix that ladder issue. Getting the two more in line with each other makes the buffing and nerfing way easier.
I like your idea of a disruptor design overhaul. I imagine something with much lesser damage but faster and spammable would work better, maybe half the cooldown, 1/3 the damage and 3x the speed, would make both using and defending against less punishing while taxing the micro on both sides more constantly but less "lost because looked away for 1 second".
The personality of the players also matters. Like look at Harstem - great creator, love watching his stuff, but if you suggest any protoss buffs - despite it being his primary race, he will always find 10 reasons why that would be overpowered. It feels like there is noone that fears protoss buffs more than the protoss players, so if Protoss players don't suggest protoss buffs, it's not that weird we aren't getting many of those
@@RancorSnp just compare protoss POV with zerg or terran POV. it‘s like slow motion ngl. even herO‘s POV is slowly asf compred to serral, maru, reynor, clem, shin & the list goes on..
just because one race has the worst pro‘s doesn‘t mean you have to buff the race into the sky.
@@invoangelus My idea was a step a bit beyond that. Quickening the pace of the disruptors would make them very hard to dodge but make the damage consistent but would sort of remove the ability to micro against it as triple speed is a lot. Changing it to damage over time changes the goal of each player. Making it faster would make it impossible to dodge but in exchange, Protoss would be aiming to hold the nova in contact with the enemy for as long as possible and the enemy would be wanting to do splits to reduce that damage and change directions to confuse the Protoss player. Higher technical damage ceiling against a player who is totally ignoring it but lower, more consistent damage against an opponent who is doing micro and makes micro from both sides still matter without being an all or nothing.
@@NevarKanzaki DOT damage is a good idea too that should be tested. My only gripe is that it overlaps too much with storm, with being a movable channeled storm.
I agree 3x move speed is too fast, was just throwing a number out. I think the move speed increase, if any, should be 1.25x - 1.5x at most.
Ignoring the speed for a moment, I imagine a lower cd, lower dmg, more spammable disruptor would make it ideal for opponents to force an engagement, eating 1 volley in the process, rather than take multiple hits kiting in and out. Playing against the current version means having to wait until all disruptors are on cd without much counterplay other than catching them off guard.
The ideal style for protoss on the other hand, is to avoid engagements and make shots whenever possible, letting the disruptor fill a similar role to siege tanks and lurkers but be more mobile and harder to aim.
I agree with the light tag on the ghost. It's too good against everything. Now it's too good against everything but you'll have a little bit less of them. I prefer in my strategy game that things have counters. Do terrans need to think in late game TvZ or making ghost is always the answer ?
It counters every Zerg unit and every protoss unit (EMP removing shields) aswell as all spellcasters. The Unit needs a rework. I suggest removing range of EMP and make reduce maximum energy
Yes it is the answer right now. Without them any equivalent protoss or zerg army can crush terrans easily
Love your mentality and its always refreshing to hear your opinions. Thanks Lambo
After this patch, I believe the case for the dissolution of the Balance Council will be very strong.
I think they should remove concusive shells on marauders, make ghosts light, give emp the fungal treatment and make it dodgable.
why don‘t just delete terran? 😂
You are the kind of person Lambo is trying to reason with in this video. Completely clueless
@@Ybrethar u r the kind of person falling 4 my baits. not only in sc2 but also in the youtube comments section it seems like 👍🏼
concussive shells is the only thing that stops terran from losing in alot of the situations. So no. It should absolutely not be removed. There is a possibility to nerf it's costs though, I always thought that it should cost more resources, and perhaps longer research time. But it should not be removed.
In which situations is the concussive shell overpowered? Or which situations would benefit from a modification on concussive research time and / or cost?
That the Disruptor no longer one-hits marauders, but because of the damage change to shield still one-shots bersersk with friendly fire is the ultimate "screw you" move...
People who are bad enough for who this is a problem probably should be lower mmr.
@@mothrahlurker788 Oh please, like you have NEVER seen zealots get hit by disruptors even on the highest level...
It does not happen constantly of course, but it does happen.
And that they made sure that in the (few) instancec when it DOES happen, the Zealot gets still one-shoted seems absurd to me.
@@wedgeantilles8575 Sure it happens but it's so exceedingly rare that you can't seriously argue that it takes priority over disruptors in PvP being viable.
Thanks for your comments and your insights. Now going to watch HSC live at TakeTV's bar is going to be much more of a treat!
Also, what you said in the beginning means that even Serral, Reynor and Clem are in the balance council? What about the Koreans?
Waiting your video about Protoss Eagerly!!
I’m seeing Terran ,Protoss and Zerg complaining in comments. Good patch
Zerg community always complaining for their idol serral
@@bobyy6557you’re not making a lot of sense lol. If anything Serral has to some degree been the bane of the zerg community; there was a period of time when zerg was relentlessly nerfed to stop his dominance
@@eliotyye Am I? I see comments saying we should bring back infested terrans, as if they weren't op. Don't complain so hard after Serral loses just one tourney. Thought y'all said he's the GOAT, he should be able to bounce back and win the next tourney, right?
@@bobyy6557Everyone is complaining that was his point. Even you.
I don't. If anything I have been sorry for protoss. @@bobyy6557
Great video Lambo 💯 they should listen more to you in the balance council
Regardless of balance it does feel a little silly to me that energy overcharge makes oracle openers which were already the standard even stronger. I wonder if the oracle itself should actually be nerfed. People talk about how the cyclone limited build variety. But that is exactly what the oracle is doing in ZvP aswell. It limits both zergs and protoss build options in the matchup.
Not really, what are you going to do as zerg differently if some other opener other than oracles were coming? Make fewer queens? Not make spores? You need to make spores anyway because of potential DTs. Zerg has such a powerful advantage in the midgame as it is.
@@Linklegacy77 Early aggression from the zerg feels a little limited when oracles have infinite energy and can zap all the lings. But also from the protoss side because the oracle is so good at what it does you don't really see any opener other than stargate. It would actually be nice to see some DT openers or idk fast robo or anything else really. I doubt we'd see much mutalisks regardless but if the protoss doesn't already have a stargate build then..maybe? In general I think we could do with a little more variety in the matchup.
Well it's obvious you are low level because you think you make spore 'incase' there are dts as zerg. There is a protocol to follow with proper scouting and you don't just waste money on spores incase something might happen.
You can't do any early aggression as zerg against Oracle's unless it's a committed all in because zerg has nothing that shoots up besides queens on hatch tech.
Any early aggressive options are a giant gamble hoping the first Oracle moves straight across the map and doesn't see you moving to their base or is a fully committed all in.
@@CoreySchulz-x5z yeah if you don't know protoss tech you make spores...
I agree. At least 80% of the P openers in PvZ looked really similar - basically it felt like the big question was "Will he build 2 Oracles or 3?"
And now they effectively buffed Oracle openers and actually weakened the main Robo units... And the energy ability feels like it makes zerg all-ins less viable... so I'm expecting the first 6 to 7 minutes of every ZvP to look even more similar than before.
EMP shouldnt remove Shields. Cant change my mind. A spell that not only removes energy and makes spellcasters useless, no even remove 50% of all Protoss HP(making Archons komplett useless, a high Gas unit) making it a counter to EVERY Unit a protoss can build
This. One little change that could fix PvT late game without affecting the other matchup's but terran's are untouchable with this bs council
I like how u try to stay objektiv. Most other yt just rage and cry alot
Nice Video and analysis
Mothership definitely feels way too strong now. As for the Ghost nerf; I think with how good the unit currently is in every regard, 3 supply are absolutely justified, but I agree that it would be better to tackle the actual problem, namely that it just has too strong of an auto-attack and too much HP for what should be a caster unit. For 2 supply I think it at least deserves -50HP.
Just going to cut and paste my response to another comment on this video that was saying pretty much exactly the same thing that you are:
It costs 400/400, 8 supply, takes 89 seconds to build, requires a goddamn Fleet Beacon, is large as fuck & relatively slow, and you can only have ONE. It's absolutely, unequivocally NOT OVERPOWERED.
Can we just be honest and not act like this change will be the reason anyone will ever lose a ZvP or TvP past, like, Silver League?
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 I didn't know that Lambo dropped down to silver league.
Thank you for this information.
@wedgeantilles8575 No, he's just showing his Zerg bias. 🤷
@@knivesoutcatchdamouse2137 So he is actively lying in his video.
No idea why you even watch it then (well, you probably didn't), if you think he is just lying anyway, but here you are...
@wedgeantilles8575 I never accused him of lying, fuck right off with that. People can be influenced by their biases or have a criticism that comes from a different perspective that I can still disagree with. Let's just end this unproductive conversation right here.
Lambo what do you think about giving Colossus either 50 shields more(but making it slower to build) or giving it +1 attack against nonlight so it is better against Marauders.
Mothership damage is one of the most overlooked thing this patch.
If there are 4 targets to hit, Mothership effectively does the damage of 2 Carriers/16 Interceptors and does not lose DPS to losing intercepters (assuming no overkill). These attacks are also extremely good at shaving off units which will reduce the critical mass of an army. This means that on top of 3 good spells, it is already a good combat unit for its cost (400/400 for 2 Carriers worth of damage and a little bit over 1 Carrier of HP is really worth it).
I'm not implying this should be nerfed or if it's too good, but it is something that seems to be largely ignored.
"3 good spells" 🤣🤣🤣
Protoss is way easy to play, these bronze level protoss have been dominating the pro scene for to long PLZ NERF PROTOSS!!!!
A unit that has at least 3 "good" spells, a decent auto attack and is tanky. This sounds familiar... I'm not implying anything either, just pointing out a similarity.
It costs 400/400, 8 supply, takes 89 seconds to build, requires a goddamn Fleet Beacon, is large as fuck & relatively slow, and you can only have ONE. It's absolutely, unequivocally NOT OVERPOWERED.
Can we just be honest and not act like this change will be the reason anyone will ever lose a ZvP or TvP past, like, Silver League?
Yeah, people do overlook that Mothership is actually able to contribute something in combat now, I honestly still would like it to be a bit stronger, make it the real core unit of the late game fleet, but there's at least SOME combat use of it now. the Extremely needed immunity to viper yoink should also help out a lot
I think the lategame of ZvP wouldnt be so horrible if Corruptors werent such a bad unit. In all of Starcraft, corruptors are the only unit that become >a negative< to you once they've done their job.
Like any zerg unit, they are only good in large numbers so you are forced to make a critical mass of them whenever they come into play. They arent particularly cheap, but they do a decent job once they are in the air. That being said, IF the zerg wins the air fight, they become dead weight. Your only choice as a zerg player is to either kill them and make room for other units, or clunkily play around their abysmally bad caustic spit ability. Oh, right.. you can also turn them into broodlords, which doubles their cost and doesnt get you a very good unit as a result.
At least banelings have the decency to die once they've been used. Not corruptors, tho. Congrats on countering the enemy strategically with the units in your arsenal. Now get punished for that good decision with having X amount of supply being near worthless. You invested too much into them to just kill them and free that supply, and if you wanna get more use out of them, how about investing a little more? Oops..the unit they turn into is purposefully bugged to not perform well at its max range -- where its primarily used!
No wonder no zerg wants to go into the lategame against toss and face the 'golden fleet'. You lose even if you win.
Lastly, about TvZ , instead of giving ghost a light tag (which would only make it more vulnerable to banelings -- a unit that is already so cost ineficient) how about giving the Snipe a 50% dmg reduction against ? Its crazy to me that an armored behemoth like the Ultra will take repeated tank shots to the face and keep going, but the smaller bullets of a ghost will down it. Same for Broodlords.
Revert the 3 supply change, but actually put some thought into the EMP and Snipe spells.
the mothership change is good, anything else is bad. ghosts should be flimsy and barely deal damage. let them be 2 supply, but give them a light tag and remove their bonus damage against light. what they should be doing is reducing the vikings range and pr damage against massive, because it counters everything protoss has and specifically counters collosus too hard. its ridiculous for 10 vikings to basically nullify any number of collosus, and they can kill them without being attacked, and there is no way to protect them. they also win cost for cost against tempests ,void rays and pheonixes, which forces protoss into a playing gateway disruptor against bio lib, which it can not at all fight directly. basically the viking makes sure that you cannot build any direct counter to libs or bio, and are forced to rely on disruptor shots.
I appreciate your honesty and courage. It seems many higher level gamers are afraid to positively criticize the game, for some reason.
Collosus needs to be able to crouch. Some survivability from AA would go a long way to making them worh building.
I would like to see an aoe robo (no bay) unit for early/mid game. Like replace the disruptor with the new unit, that has an auto aoe attack, and an ability with a CD, like the disputors nova, but not as strong.
Personally I imagine this unit always as the reaver, but thats just because I love the design :D Imagine a speed upgrade where it start rolling :D
Protoss player here, Since mothership cannot be abducted, what about making it able to be contaminated?
It’d give Zerg another way to counter it slight without making it too much of a glass unit again. Gives them time to disengage or time to get other units in place. My only concern would be spamming it on the mothership, so maybe make it where it cannot be contaminated back to back, have some kind of time before it could be contaminated again.
I like the idea of treating the mothership as a flying building.
Corruptors should be able to caustic spray it too! 😂
Ravens could cast interference matrix on mothership, right?
@@НикитаЕремеев-ц6ц yeah id guess so, though I haven’t heard of it really being used in PvT much or having issues dealing with it.
The bad part is that you need to add so many exceptions to game rules, where ideally you have none. This unit is already unabductable, unneurable, and now you propose to make it contaminatable. That's not how game should work imo
How is it players that make money from tournaments are allowed any input on patches?
Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching pro games and their opinions on the game but it shouldn't matter the instant money and livelihood is involved
Because there isn't really an alternative. Blizzard is no longer involved so we either have a balance council or no balance changes at all. As questionable as some changes have been..is it better than nothing? Yeah probably.
@luckygozer one alternative is to simply use input from the entire community instead of very few players who make money off the game. Seems pretty simple to me
The issue is Lambo what your saying is the best players are simply not playing Protoss, if that is the case the changes need to be strong enough to make the best players wish to swap race. Starcraft 2 is at its very worst right now its far from its glory days, people from all 3 races must be winning major events for the perception of how bad the balance is to alter. The game needs to be competitive. Protoss are not a viable race the results prove it to be so.
If you look at any other sport or esport measures are in place to make sure that one team does not always win everything even if they are the best team.
Dark and Byun both make massive mistakes in almost every game and yet they still win games, when Hero makes a similar mistake he losses, that is because Protoss requires the player to be better than their opponent and not to make mistakes. Its clearly a balance problem.
thanks for your insight into the patch and balance council.
I'm looking forward to the Toss video.
As casual Zerg I am not convinced of the patch. as you say focus should be TvP not PvZ. And they don't do anything about turtle toss either.
New balance patch + zerg main = already know the outcome :D Agree btw.
Hi Lambo, are you perchance a Zerg player?
Do you think there will be a pro circuit in 2025?
39:35 That's not entirely accurate. With +3 attack, an Immortal can indeed 3-shot a Lurker, since Lurkers have 1 base armour, meaning the Immortal will do 64 damage on each attack. However, if the Zerg player has researched +1 Carapace, which is incredibly likely by the time Protoss has +3 Ground Attack, then Immortals will only be able to 4-shot them.
I agree on the pvt and the disruptor changes. I (as a toss) really don't enjoy the disruptor. We have to rely on it in pvt, but its just frustrating. So i like the direction, but man you need some compensation for them AND immortals getting nerfed
I think the auto attack for the ghost needs to be worse and it needs a light tag. Lots of spell casters have amazing spells but almost every one can be deleted with a soft breeze, except the ghost. The problem with EMP is that Terrans die without it but crush with it. Damage over time makes the most sense, like storm, or decrease the radius/damage and make it a slower projectile
Terran ghosts are too OP still
Love your vid! Thanks Lambo!
We need to give zerg flying banelings to deal with the mothership.
What would you call these flying banelings? It sounds like it could be a real scourge to Protoss players.
@@Unormalism😂😂😂😂
Fucking love the comment section
😭😭😭
Ya you just mutate the mutalisks into tatedlisks. And they can have a 60 second timer. If you don’t use them by then they explode where they are for friendly fire.
There's already a unit called the Scourge, but they're not in SC2 MP. Pretty much a flying Baneling.
@@Nevermore2790 m8.
As someone who's pretty much strictly been a viewer and hasn't played for quite some time, I think each of these balance council patches makes me less and less interested in watching, especially for pro matches.
It seems pros are balancing the game either in favor of their race, or focusing patches to improve consistency, which is terrible for the longterm health of the game as more consistent play => more figured out balance => matches being more samey and boring to watch.
Inconsistency creates a lot more chance for upsets so the top players can shift around from tournament to tournament, and crazy strats that are hard or inconsistent to get off but go super hard when they do see success are what makes tournaments interesting.
Probably the best thing the balance team could do if they care about the longterm profitability of their job is to introduce seasons in SC2 balance scene by making a major upset in balance with lots of crazy changes that are meant to totally shake things up, and maybe 1-2 followups to tone down some extremely op strats that come from these changes, then just let the pros figure out how to win for a while before moving on to another season where similarly crazy changes go through.
Seeing new units or upgrades rom the campaigns or coop, as well as drastic changes to existing units, these kind of things I believe would usher in an era of tournaments that viewers will be consistently interested in seeing as every tournament will feel drastically different to watch than the last.
Pro players would also have to get a lot less comfortable with one particular status quo and I think pros that have exceptional strategizing and mechanical skill, as well as strong play with alt races, will really start to stand out and dominate players that have completely mastered the current meta because of their domination of the meta, repeatedly push back against major upset balance changes.
Mostly watched from the timestamp from the reddit post, but I can't help but feel that everyone is missing a couple of important points with this patch:
1: The map pool is changing in favor of Zerg.
2: Zerg winrates in top tournaments are very high and favorable in both matchups, and perhaps most importantly have a more favorable winrate in ZvP than Terran does in TvP.
I feel like this is being mostly overlooked. I get that Protoss pros have a perception that is obviously valid, but to what extent should it be taken at face value? Protoss has just barely 40% winrate in PvZ (again in top tournaments), if Protoss won literally zero games but Protoss players said the matchup was fine, do we not act? I'm just saying, it feels like everyone is really zeroing in on Terran being OP, when I think Zerg is pretty clearly the strongest race at the top at least, with Protoss mostly just being weak in both matchups and in need of some help.
If you look at every single specific change (besides the reluctant ghost nerf and building armor) it’s either beneficial for Terran or at the very least doesn’t affect them too negatively. Buff the mothership massively-not really a Terran problem but massively an issue for Zerg. Downgrade the immortal/disruptor-hugely beneficial for Terran and a bit of a tiny help for Zerg. Tempest change is also great for Terran vs Vikings or BCs (air range nerf) and the ONE thing they had to give up the commentary is extremely reluctant. Get these Terran-biased pros and replace them with Pig, winter, and Lowko and let the community lead the way. This balance council is NOT working
i totally agree. If you ignore the nerfs, terran only got buffs.
It's actually crazy to me how most of the community thinks they now better. How they watch lowko or artosis and are like "so true, -5hp on banes made zerg unplayable, so true".
Honestly, you prob nevers broke above 5k mmr. Lowko or winter havent played a game in years and never got close to the top either.
I personaly can't even watch lowko anymore, kus after a few years watching HarstemCast, I can see that lowkos's commentary on games just tends to miss important points and misinterpret other.
I'm no expert in the game, and thus I don't belive I have my word to say on how it should be balanced. It's actually crazy that the concil has to add things just to feed the masses. Yes, they should've thought of an actual nerf for Ghost, but if they didn't, then it should wait next patch, not be changed in a hurry.
@@eragonball4298 this argument is pretty damn stupid since 90% of the players haven't reached Masters or GM. pandering to professionals and ignoring the community of casual players is a pretty good way to kill the game. we may not know the specifics of build orders and timing attacks, but we sure as hell see that mass Ghost and Skytoss is a big issue.
what is your guitar?
I wanted to ask him this for a while now lol and what amp he got kek
A Gibson LesPaul!
@@LamboSC2 nicee man, I thought so but could not read the headstock lmao, my uncle has LP and its very nice guitar but heavy af haha
Im a nobody, but Id still like to comment. I agree with pretty much everything but the ghost take. I dont mean to say it isnt a nerf but I think the strength of the nerf is being overstated. I think it will have a little impact on the start of the lategame where Terran begins building the ghosts and that time when Terran doesnt have a good orbital count. But as soon as they do I think we will see the same ghost count but lower scv counts since mules will make up the difference. I do agree that this change will also not incentivize Terran to move out but I also dont think making the ghost squishier will incentivize that either.
Personally I think if we nerfed snipe further but then buffed it in a completely different way than ever it would meet the requirements the council is maybe going for? Changes such as:
- Snipe damage change to 25 (+50 vs Psionic) OR 50 (+25 vs Psionic) This leaves spellcasters at 2 shots.
- Snipe is uninterruptible (fungal, or ANY other damage, no longer cancels it)
The damage nerf reduced the power of the turtle camping despite the guaranteed snipe, BUT it also means an infestor hail mary isnt necessary in an offensive or defensive position to win a fight in the late game. At the same time it also means if terran defends them well they have alot of potential since fungal is no longer a threat to stop damage from snipe. It lowers the defensive strength but elevates its aggressive potential.
Obviously Im not a designer and maybe you could also make changes to its tags to make up for something like this, or if its too weak you could tinker with the leash range again. Ect.
Regardless, great video! Love it!
why would you even snipe with that little dmg. make fungal growth gain hp for enemy units or reducing nova dmg to 1 seems similar changes imo. nonsense period.
@ That’s why I mentioned tinkering with the change and its numbers to address it if is too weak.
Maybe a base damage set at 75 instead.
The issue is with the damage being high and uninterruptible it becomes too much damage for free. That’s why Terran turtles because in a defensive position they know that there isn’t a single infestor sharking around their army that will fungal their ghosts and stop every snipe. If they move out they risk that situation plus the death of every ghost.
You could also do other things like reverting it back to 2 supply so you can have a few more ghosts earlier on to make up for the damage.
You could also slightly nerf Ultra HP so that the lower sniper damage is compensated against Zerg. This would also be an inadvertent buff for PvZ given the immortal nerf so that could be good or bad.
There are many options and ideas you could implement to make this change good. My goal was to get the idea across on how to make the ghost more viable offensively and make it not game ending for Terran if they choose to be aggressive but also lower the power of its turtle potential.
What would your suggestion be to incentivize Terrans to be a bit more aggressive, and to make it a bit more viable, in the late game and lower the strength of turtling like the council wants?
@@alexcostin3448 the changes i would propose depend on whether you want to make changes for professional play or for the majority of the player base (basically n00bz). this would differ a lot imo
Give ultralisk active plus 10 defense but reduce speed x2.
Swarmhost reduce prod cost by 2.
So far Lambo is the only high lvl zerg to not think the ghost should be a 3 supply unit that I've seem. As a noob watcher it's pretty annoying to see a hyper effective army completely spreaded around the map murdering masses of units from the enemy both zerg and protoss because of a single unit that does everything, but maybe other changes to it could be better.
what if colossus got the seige tank treatment and didnt have to research range at all.
I don't perosnally care that people were upset by the immortal nerf. As a dia 3 zerg player, I really struggled against mass immortal archon zealot. I struggled to get vipers out maybe because my APM is too low but still. What else can I make? Lings? They get evapoated by archon zealot.
I can tell you from mid diamond and below mothership especially rushing it is just absolutely fkn broken. haven't bothered to play more then 3 games and currently my mommy ship is sitting at a beautiful roughly 150+kills and 1 death.
The balance council is actively killing this game off. At this point so much damage has been done, that I don't see the game and the community recovering. I think the best thing would be to restore the game to the version before the council did their first patch and leave it that way. Balance by changing maps.
What if the mommaship, beeing so bulky and all, cod only be anducted halfway, so you need 2 viper to pull it to your army, but can still be countered. Or even it also pulls the viper, so they meet in the middle. Losing a viper in the process is still cheaper than switching to corruptor
Regarding the Protoss being non-viable ... Statistically if there's 3 balanced races and we have 9 tournaments each race should win 3 tournaments, assuming equal skill.
Looking at things from purely a statistical perspective, the current results are a statistical anomaly that heavily suggests there are issues with Protoss at pro level.
i think a better nerf to use on the ghost is nerfing EMP to be a flat damage rather then a full shield and energy delete ability
flat damage should be 50-75
the reason is this does enough damage to effect spell caster energy to prevent spell casting and delete most or all of gateway unit shields while not deleting all the shields on higher tier units like carriers and colossus
this means ghost need to use more EMP to delete the enemy shields or energy meaning you have less snipes to use
they could also increase the energy needed to snipe in combination with this to help reduce the amount of snipes ghosts can use against zergs without having to increase the ghost supply
my thinking is you can reduce the effectiveness of the unit spell casting rather then forcing the player to have less of them in the army comp and you will achieve a similar result
Emp already has a flat damage of 100
@@dragonforce9178 95% of the protoss complainers here dont actually play the game and havent since Brood War.
Then you build a few more ghosts and press the emp button a few more times. Not really a nerf worth thinking about
Glad that at least all pro players I've heard understand that MS change is a little bit bullshit. It's insane to me that literally no one else sees that making a unit literally immortal just because it's expensive is wrong. Why not nerf abducts against MS in some other way, like drastically reduce pull force so you'd need to use 5-6 abducts over 5 seconds to kill it. Right now there's just no counterplay, and people think it's good. If protoss player have more than 3 braincells MS is just unkillable without overcommitment with corruptors into storms and archons, which always loses you a game if you're not far ahead.
Energy recharge for 1 unit on a 1 minute cooldown feels very underwhelming.
100 Energy is often enough to completely turn a fight around especially from Storms and Oracle Stasis. It "feels" underwhelming and maybe in the hands of someone who isn't very good at the game, it is. But it is absolutely really, really good and way more versatile than Battery Overcharge which can only be used for defense. This is conceptually a correct move by rewarding meaningful decision and good control.
(I'm a Protoss player in case people want to play the race propaganda card)
Agreed, except that for someone to “completely turn a fight around,” with this ability they would have to be better than very good. Now it requires two extra levels of micro. This is meant for pro scene imo.
@@Avermra Energy overcharge - we have buffed them where they were strong and nerfed them were they are weak
The apduct change will mainly make late game battels way worse... Now were are wating for the toss to fall asleep or the zerg inting into archons or storm and losing. Maybe there are some freaks of nature that enjoy that but for me it seems "not that great of an idea".
It was always clear that not protoss itself is bad, only the players are worse than terrans and zergs.^^ It always has been that way. Maps definitely have a big impact on balance as well. Maps should be rotated more often, I agree.
Refreshing to hear some highly insightful, pro takes on the patch. I swear Reddit Starcraft is overtaken by salty platinum Protosses. (They're talking about how OP Marauders are)
The patients took over the asylum years ago
Okay then. Name a protoss counter to mass marauder then.
@@yugonostalgia8961mass carrier is an obvious counter
@@blaurvedrur Lmao mass carrier when marines and vikings exist. Get outta here hahahahahahaha
@@yugonostalgia8961 that was an obvious joke response tard
You would make 1 Viper to speciifically take you the Mothership.
Don't you think it is kind of stupid that all it takes is just one Viper to do that?
It is, mothership should have been immune to abducts from the very beginning
Game already has way too many upgrades for zerg units, now another one. 5 upgrades for hydras lmao, speed, range, lunge, luker range, lurker speed.
"Yes I am part of the balance council but I have nothing to do with this patch" ????
Ultra is a nerf. They do stuck more between terran sim city and have less surface areas now on planetaries and bio ball.
How about a video with regards to the worker start. A trend takes conversations there now, started with Artosis, then PiG and Harstem, etc. Did the 12 worker start actually made things more predictable, removed too much variety and killed tech builds, so now its all about taking 4-5 bases and going from there. Or is it simply about the skill level getting higher no matter the start. In case of the later, does the 12 worker start make builds and playstyles easier to master as there is less variety in the early game, which kind of made these monsters like Serrall and maru who can take the game from the early stage through every stage of the game, or was it bound to happen and despite prerhaps more varied openers such players would have evolved by now anyway.
And I'm sure the mothership hates you too 😝
In my opinion u should reform u council work. Pro players should show the problems, the direction, and other people should think how to change and fix it.
For example - "I think the turtle style is bad, we should some how change this meta". Sometimes even masteplayers or diamond players can tell how to change this game to cure this.
This game is very mechanical and being pro player not making people to be good patchmakers. And it work both way. U don't need to be a airplane pilot to be his constructor.
Pls tell people some e-mail where to wright there solutions and any other thoughts, it would be great.
As many people wrote. Pro players should not be part of the patch decisions. Pro players should adjust when patch comes. These patches are just dick measuring among 3 races with 1 mm changes
Pro players have always been a part of patch decisions, since the game first released. It's just that now there aren't any actual devs doing the balance so the pro players are the only ones left to work on it
Thrown off completely by your introduction I dont know if you're serious or not: Q: Do I have the time and patience to find out heck no bye ;p gl gl
HSC was painful to watch. It was fun to have fun along with you guys because it seemed that you had a great time but as soon technical problems and banter stopped and the games started - I lost interest. Didn't even bothered to watch play-offs.
Feels weird huh he doesnt like to make units to a specific counter to mothership its annoying but we terrans have to make specific counter to lurkers and ultralisk or at P vikings for Colosus or mass zealot feels good right forcing something out of you that what terrans lack in this patch forcing a tech and strategy to zerg or Protoss player .
Yes I agree pvp is terran favored, but also equally zerg favored since the protoss players knock each other out approx 37:50 is my reference 😂😂😂
I love how they are trying to put protoss nerfs into buff wrappers and try to sell them as good upgrades.
Mothership buff isnt as good as bad immortal nerf. We need immortals a lot more often than this 100dmg beam. Dont matter how much you buff mothership its most expensive unit with 400/400 cost that cost increase from 300/300 is also nerf a little.
Zerg had it too easy against Skytoss. Gotta nerf queen and hydras. Also nerfing entire early game in the process just so Toss doesnt accidentaly die early.
Pro-gamers should NOT be a part of the Balance Council. Period.
TY played for lategame.
Queens nerf is horrible. It was hard to defence 1000 of terrans and protoss all in pushes, and now it became even worth. It's very silly. And economic of zergs because totally broken.
My biggest hot take is to bring back the mothership core and leave battery overcharge .
what a legend
Im not as high level as you but at 4.8k every time I try to play Zerg, it just feels extremely dirty with these changes. My queens are late, my injects are no longer synced correctly. I can't take a third because my queen is 3 sec late and takes forever to get to these third base locations to shoo reapers. I have one less queen by the time two banshees/oracle shows up to defend which is huge. It just doesn't feel good playing vs equally skilled players because I feel like my race isn't equal to Terran/Toss anymore. Won't be playing this patch and I consider Zerg dead from this game outside of Pro players. Tried 25 games and saw 2 other zergs so Im not the only one with this sentiment.
Welcome to Protoss, where your build timing changes slightly every patch
@@MrSpleenface What build timing? The gate/cybercore has been the same timing for a long time. Hell, yall even got quicker stalkers this patch. Queens are our larvae production, so it would be like changing how long till you get warp gate.
@ In the last few years we’ve had multiple gateway unit timings changed as well as cost changes to multiple units and structures, not to mention all the void ray changes
@@MrSpleenface None of that changes your basis for warping in units through. Certainly not as bad as zerg losing 6 workers and 4 larvae by the time they make their 8th queen.
@@Konranjyoutai Warp Gate only kicks in 3 minutes into the game (or later). When you have like 3 units total to keep yourself alive in the early game, their timing and costs matter a LOT.
I have no idea how you got to "6 workers and 4 larvae" being the "loss" to the cost increase of queens, if you build 2 hatches and 8 queens, you would be down 150 minerals, which would be 3 workers compared to pre-patch, but your hatches start (and therefore also finish) faster, your first queen would come out at the same time, and your second would only be slightly delayed.
But either way, the point I was making is that the hit to your macro is coming primarily from your mistiming, not the actual raw number changes. Serral isn't down 6 workers and 4 larvae at the 5 minute mark. Not because he's an inhuman freak who can somehow squeeze 300 extra minerals out of the same build order in 5 minutes, but because he played enough games on the PTR to adjust his builds to the new reality.
New Patch, same Terran Tears.
I hardly read comments or forums or twitch chat at all know. the internet has too many morons
People are mass hatching everywhere. Mass hatch is a legit strategy now. You can quadruple hatch, proxy hatch. It's the Hatch patch. Protoss have been removed from the game. They can double macro hatch. They can do everything.
ZvP now way more fun to watch imo. Mothership kiting hydras or lurking around for recall.
looking forward to that protoss video ; are they really weak ? is the race actually not viable in tournaments ? or is that they just suck ? :))
There is also something to be said for MaxPax not playing offline tournaments. Zerg results would quite different if, say, Serral or Reynor didn't play offline, and terran results if Clem or Maru didn't play offline. If you're looking at top-8 finishes and you have 3 races, obviously not having a top-2 player for one race in the tournament is going to make that race look worse.
If there was no Clem or Maru participating, terran still have solid roster to be in top-4: Byun, Cure, Oliveira, even Gumiho are capable of getting there. For zerg it's Dark, Solar, Shin possibly. Every race has a roster of like 5 contenders, and only protoss has 2. Idk if it does have something to do with balance, but that's a fact.
@@blaurvedrur In fairness, tho, classic and trap are just now reestablishing themselves.
@@macedindu829 true for Trap, and Classic returned from military 3 years ago
i think the issue is that protoss isn't allowed to beat a composition outright because it already does with one unit already, the immortal.
if they rework the immortal then every other protoss unit can be buffed because the immortal do have monopoly against most armored ground units, everything except warpgate units because being able to warp in units is too strong otherwise.
essentially protoss is made to have weaknesses because it would be too crazy otherwise, i mean it's either reworking immortals or removing warp gates.
Pls, somebody tell him that cyclones now are totally broken. They just killing everything in ZvT from o MMR to 5,5 MMR at least. It's not fun, fix it as soon as possible. Or soon there will be Serral, Lambo, MaxPax and 197 terrans in GML 🤣
Council bell-ends 🤣
Queen nerf aswell as Ghost nerf very needed. Both are just spammable units that are good in nearly any szenario. Ghost nerf just not big enough. Mothership feels to power full (should lower DMG output)
let me get the popcorn
FIX THE CYCLONE!!!!! :D
34:45
Ok, can the existence of T in TvP matchup not be a spoiler then? It's boring to WATCH. And if less people watch - less money is on the line for pros, it's not like blizzard is sponsoring tournaments. I want to see toss make it to..... anywhere.
Zerg- why cant i insta kill 800 resouce mothership with no negative commitment of units.
zerg - why can't they delete all the other races so we rule sc2 and our idol serral can continue to be #1
We’re gonna see so many games where zergs just lose all their corrupters and the whole game bc they got even somewhat close to all the splash damage or arachons and high Templar abduct is literally one of 2 things that keeps Zerg relevant in the late game against Protoss so I think it’s a fair point to make
@@GHOST445-ej4on maybe they should instead slowly abduct the splash damage before committing then? Instead of doing it in a single ability? Also why is that they MUST destroy the mother ship before the fight? It's decent, but it's not THAT strong to be worth throwing away all of your army to target it down, it no longer provides permanent invisibility (not to mention even if they did there's no Zerg that moves their army without 10 overseers in it)
No, the issue is that if you can't abduct it the only other way to get rid of it is a huge commitment to corruptors
@@RancorSnp high templar feedback outranges abduct so theoretically this is impossible which was why it was fine for abduct to work on any unit as its a mistake from the toss allowing that
So blocking protoss buff is Protoss pro players fragile ego. Damn 😢
ZvP is now Protoss favored. Oracles are now a nightmare for Zergs. And I think it was a mistake to give yoink immunity to mothership. The yoink range should've be cut to 1\3 for mothership and on top of that the Viper should yoink itself toward the mothership. That would be fair.
I cannot stand this patch and map pool-they've made me lose all interest in playing or even watching games.
Wasn't there a bug that mothership damage on the PTR was doing like 4x more damage than it was supposed to? maybe that's why you were finding it was too powerful
No. The ptr mothership was doing even more DMG at 8 DMG per shot instead of 6. That has been fixed afaik
zerg evo upgrades should only go to level 2, this way zerg can get higher flyer upgrades like level 4 to make up for their ground being OP and their Flyers being paper