Oh and I forgot to mention, i think a thing that terrans should do against this, is to keep their depots at their natural raised up and the wall closed. Similar to how Protosses let out there units with a unit in the wall (except for Terrans actually having an anti f2 door), i believe Terran could do that too once they're closed to maxed out!
If it's so easy, why has Maru lost soooo many games due to the difference between a raised depot and a lowered one. Raising and lowering depots is micro intensive because units tend to form trains that take time to traverse the depot, requiring you to count and estimate when you have to raise/lower the depot again. Since the time of life and auto rally point swarm hosts, maru has always had trouble with depots. He lost a championship match due to that. clem has trouble with trapping units in base. It's hard to just "raise/lower the depot". I don't think it would be a huge balance issue to give a quality of life improvement to auto lower a depot if it's blocking pathing of some sort. Just don't go crazy and auto raise depots.
@@thedeadbaby noone said its easy and noone said to do it all game. I specifically said they should do it when theyre maxed out and only against this style! Rogue is spending a ton of resources to make this work so the terran is always maxed out before any nydus worms get up, and you don't need to raise and lower it too often at that point. I believe they didn't play against this many times yet and didn't think of this solution to be honest, it only came to me after thinking about it after this video too. Usually in lategame the natural ramp is impossible to get to with zerg units so you never need the wall to be raised, so it's easy to forget this perk from terran :)
@@LamboSC2 In this mass-Overseer style, what do you think of mass contaminate in ultra-late game ZvT where Zerg has a large bank. Would using 12+ Overseers and flying them into the Terran main and mass contaminating every production structure while trading out armies work? At max energy, each one could cast 1 contaminate and by the time the contamination is over, would almost have enough energy to cast another contaminate. Each contaminate is 21s of lost production time. A marine is 18s of production time. On a reactor'd barracks, each overseer could prevent 4 marines from producing over almost a minute, preventing the Terran from remaxing to allow hopefully a snowball engagement on the 2nd remax.
Great video! The supply block of ByuN in the game was crazy. At 24:00 insgame time he starts to be supply blocked (160/155). And only at 28:48 ingame time he gets his supply up to 200. All the time with money in the bank. So he is almost 5 minutes constantly supply blocked while having money to be maxed out. Never seen this kind of supply block ever before, a good indicator how overwhelmed he was with this playstyle of Rogue.
With how much resources Rogue invested into the nydus worms + overseers, easy to do and cost efficient solution would be to place a bunch of depos/turrets in your main in a checkerboard pattern to block nydus placement. Terran would probably spend like 3x less resources than the zerg by just blocking all the potential nydus placement spots in the main.
I think terrans could adjust their building positioning to limit the build able space for nydus worms. Seems like it would make it easier to cover with a few units on patrol or a sieged tank.
I really liked the sensor tower fake out with the overseers and a handful of units. Even forcing Terran to scan and look at what's there is worthwhile when you're setting up an attack. The same thing could potentially be achieved with just overlords too.
The most impressive is that byun was so focused on dealing with changelings that wasn't able to attack. Basically zergs sieging Terrans, you wanna do an amove with your ghosts?, go ahead, but I will smash your main with nydus and lurkers.
I think the changeling block on the ramp during all the multitasking was the final moment that tilted Clem. So chaotic and innovative from Rouge but I think top terrans will figure this out quickly.
@LamboSC2 What do you think of mass contaminate in ultra-late game ZvT where Zerg has a large bank. Would using mass Overseers and flying them into the Terran main and mass contaminating every production structure while trading out armies work? At max energy, each one could cast 1 contaminate and by the time the contamination is over, would almost have enough energy to cast another contaminate. Each contaminate is 21s of lost production time. A marine is 18s of production time. On a reactor'd barracks, each overseer could prevent 4 marines from producing over almost a minute, preventing the Terran from remaxing to allow hopefully a snowball engagement on the 2nd remax.
maybe, itd be super situational though, you'd need to have a massive gas bank, and contaminate is like 100 energy for 33 seconds, so you'd need about a dozen overseers to make a dent in late game terran 8-10 rax +factories +starports, on top of losing all that gas, just for 33 seconds of production. plus you'd almost certainly lose the overseers. doing it early game to deny tech or certain production for a super slick timeing push is viable, but late game, its just too much investment for such little gain
I agree, seems like the strength of this build is vision and apm asymmetry. Navigating overseers to contaminate while dodging enemy fire probably not a good on return as far as apm goes But I don’t play this game, I just watch, would love to see a high level player try it 🤷
Well, i played like this 3 years ago when i wanted to troll, but this was pretty effective in late-game. 200/200 with 40 overseers is way much than 200, you can literally sometimes block important patch with changelings, delay production and upgrades and cover units. This was for me always obvious thats a good thing to do when you are floating a lot in the late game anyways. early to mid-game its not worth it, you can still cover units with overlords with speed.
Need to see if clem figures out a way to adapt and play against this style. But if after a couple of weeks he still hasn’t and loses in the same manner then I might start considering this a bit OP as if clem doesn’t have the apm and multitask required to handle it nobody else will.
I feel like rogue could throw in 6 swarm host after awhile and use one nydus like a distraction nuke, you hear the scream and scour your bases looking for it only to eventually see locust fly in to clear the next nydus location
SHIN as well is very favored vs clem, rogue is good in lategame though while shin goes for timing attacks Edit: Its interesting that there are two different ways that beat clem and neither is serral.
Probably not, since the Terran has a Turret ring and a maxed out Army that can hit overseers by the time you have so many overseers. You also can't reliably trade enough for this to work, since terran usually just defends at that stage and you can't guarantee killing a decent amount of army from them.
Oh and I forgot to mention, i think a thing that terrans should do against this, is to keep their depots at their natural raised up and the wall closed.
Similar to how Protosses let out there units with a unit in the wall (except for Terrans actually having an anti f2 door), i believe Terran could do that too once they're closed to maxed out!
If it's so easy, why has Maru lost soooo many games due to the difference between a raised depot and a lowered one. Raising and lowering depots is micro intensive because units tend to form trains that take time to traverse the depot, requiring you to count and estimate when you have to raise/lower the depot again. Since the time of life and auto rally point swarm hosts, maru has always had trouble with depots. He lost a championship match due to that. clem has trouble with trapping units in base. It's hard to just "raise/lower the depot". I don't think it would be a huge balance issue to give a quality of life improvement to auto lower a depot if it's blocking pathing of some sort. Just don't go crazy and auto raise depots.
@@thedeadbaby noone said its easy and noone said to do it all game. I specifically said they should do it when theyre maxed out and only against this style!
Rogue is spending a ton of resources to make this work so the terran is always maxed out before any nydus worms get up, and you don't need to raise and lower it too often at that point.
I believe they didn't play against this many times yet and didn't think of this solution to be honest, it only came to me after thinking about it after this video too. Usually in lategame the natural ramp is impossible to get to with zerg units so you never need the wall to be raised, so it's easy to forget this perk from terran :)
It's like. How to play SC2 good? It's easy. You grab your flat clicker an clicks. Easy.
@@LamboSC2 In this mass-Overseer style, what do you think of mass contaminate in ultra-late game ZvT where Zerg has a large bank. Would using 12+ Overseers and flying them into the Terran main and mass contaminating every production structure while trading out armies work? At max energy, each one could cast 1 contaminate and by the time the contamination is over, would almost have enough energy to cast another contaminate. Each contaminate is 21s of lost production time. A marine is 18s of production time. On a reactor'd barracks, each overseer could prevent 4 marines from producing over almost a minute, preventing the Terran from remaxing to allow hopefully a snowball engagement on the 2nd remax.
I can see Reynor behind a tree, rubbing his hands while smiling waiting for the next opportunity to face Clem for another keyboard rage quit
Lol the tree
terrans in shambles, looking for the hotkeys to rotate and zoom in camera so they can snipe lurkers under 35 overseers. this is peak starcraft
Great video!
The supply block of ByuN in the game was crazy. At 24:00 insgame time he starts to be supply blocked (160/155). And only at 28:48 ingame time he gets his supply up to 200.
All the time with money in the bank.
So he is almost 5 minutes constantly supply blocked while having money to be maxed out.
Never seen this kind of supply block ever before, a good indicator how overwhelmed he was with this playstyle of Rogue.
I was SO waiting for this. Thank you lambo for your amazing analysis
Rogue _is_ a genius... but he is ALSO insane 😂😂😂
39:31 Rogue said byun if you’re not going to attack, let’s not waste time and play 1 more.
With how much resources Rogue invested into the nydus worms + overseers, easy to do and cost efficient solution would be to place a bunch of depos/turrets in your main in a checkerboard pattern to block nydus placement. Terran would probably spend like 3x less resources than the zerg by just blocking all the potential nydus placement spots in the main.
Island Defense WC3 mod anyone?
Very nice to see the different games in which Rogue was doing this all put together for analysis. Very nice!
I think terrans could adjust their building positioning to limit the build able space for nydus worms. Seems like it would make it easier to cover with a few units on patrol or a sieged tank.
I really liked the sensor tower fake out with the overseers and a handful of units. Even forcing Terran to scan and look at what's there is worthwhile when you're setting up an attack. The same thing could potentially be achieved with just overlords too.
The most impressive is that byun was so focused on dealing with changelings that wasn't able to attack. Basically zergs sieging Terrans, you wanna do an amove with your ghosts?, go ahead, but I will smash your main with nydus and lurkers.
Thanks for the video, always appreciate your analysis
I think the changeling block on the ramp during all the multitasking was the final moment that tilted Clem. So chaotic and innovative from Rouge but I think top terrans will figure this out quickly.
I’m keen to hear your patch thoughts
This has been my go-to for late game but with broodlords to deal with tanks.
Thanks, Rogue, for clearing the field for the Pax.
exactly the type of videos we love you for!
Also the creep spread is really gold
He beat Byun with it, Olivera and Clem so I'd say he's the Terran devastater right now.
@LamboSC2 What do you think of mass contaminate in ultra-late game ZvT where Zerg has a large bank. Would using mass Overseers and flying them into the Terran main and mass contaminating every production structure while trading out armies work? At max energy, each one could cast 1 contaminate and by the time the contamination is over, would almost have enough energy to cast another contaminate. Each contaminate is 21s of lost production time. A marine is 18s of production time. On a reactor'd barracks, each overseer could prevent 4 marines from producing over almost a minute, preventing the Terran from remaxing to allow hopefully a snowball engagement on the 2nd remax.
maybe, itd be super situational though, you'd need to have a massive gas bank, and contaminate is like 100 energy for 33 seconds, so you'd need about a dozen overseers to make a dent in late game terran 8-10 rax +factories +starports, on top of losing all that gas, just for 33 seconds of production. plus you'd almost certainly lose the overseers. doing it early game to deny tech or certain production for a super slick timeing push is viable, but late game, its just too much investment for such little gain
I agree, seems like the strength of this build is vision and apm asymmetry. Navigating overseers to contaminate while dodging enemy fire probably not a good on return as far as apm goes
But I don’t play this game, I just watch, would love to see a high level player try it 🤷
Well, i played like this 3 years ago when i wanted to troll, but this was pretty effective in late-game. 200/200 with 40 overseers is way much than 200, you can literally sometimes block important patch with changelings, delay production and upgrades and cover units. This was for me always obvious thats a good thing to do when you are floating a lot in the late game anyways. early to mid-game its not worth it, you can still cover units with overlords with speed.
Great video 😊
Need to see if clem figures out a way to adapt and play against this style. But if after a couple of weeks he still hasn’t and loses in the same manner then I might start considering this a bit OP as if clem doesn’t have the apm and multitask required to handle it nobody else will.
I would have some swarm hosts to land on the tanks or broods to get the tanks to kill eachother.
I feel like rogue could throw in 6 swarm host after awhile and use one nydus like a distraction nuke, you hear the scream and scour your bases looking for it only to eventually see locust fly in to clear the next nydus location
SHIN as well is very favored vs clem, rogue is good in lategame though while shin goes for timing attacks
Edit: Its interesting that there are two different ways that beat clem and neither is serral.
cost efficiency < supply efficiency < attention efficiency
Clem quit with an army supply advantage? Less resources but still a decent bank.
Now Terren knows how it feels to deal constant drops. Constant nydus worms spliting5 your attention.
There was a second time he played byun which he did itbwith swarm hosts that looked even better
I don't think an overseer costs that much more than a raven. A raven is 40x better, but terrans aren't good enough to use them lol
that was easily byun's game to win. It's pretty much impossible for zerg to beat terran after the maps start mining out due to late game imbalance.
Great stuff!!
Can we see you slam your desk also?
Couldnt it be a strat if the overseers contaminate most of the production, then the zerg trades armys and remaxes while the terran cant?
Probably not, since the Terran has a Turret ring and a maxed out Army that can hit overseers by the time you have so many overseers.
You also can't reliably trade enough for this to work, since terran usually just defends at that stage and you can't guarantee killing a decent amount of army from them.
Woooh! Lambo vid!
casual 6K resources investment in non-combat units just to make the build work :D
BC would be fine but BC are too difficult for most terrans
So Zerg spams crap with little to no consequence and if terrain does not deal with it quickly every time terrain will Loose all production.
Not that different from terran medivac drops
That beard