Man as a BMW owner (N52,S55), watching him break down the engine parts just showed me all of the failure points of a modern turbo BMW engine lol. Vanos, valve lifters, valvetronic, high pressure fuel pump, valve cover gasket, crank hub, timing chain. The 2JZ might be simple design but it works.
You call those failure points? 😂 Those are advances in technology. A stock jz will never make the same power for the same amount of time a modern stock internal bmw inline 6 will.
BMW tech here, your N52 and S55 are both reliable engines, just make sure to not go over the miles for your oil services as that is the main killer of any engine and will cause premature wear for your timing chain and valvetronic system. The items you listed are not common failure points, save for the valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, and oil filter housing gasket.
In my opinion, yes both engines are very potent and powerful out from the factory, but there’s also the side of repairing and ease of service as with any engines. 20 yrs into the future I think this important factor should’ve been considered by its engineers, but I’m only a Toyota technician just something to consider, when we break down as car enthusiasts we actually want to do an on-site diagnosis and repair just saying, speed isn’t everything, simplicity is “KISS” keep it simple stupid and enjoy 😅😂😊
As someone that gets paid to work on BMW engines, to me the B58 is actually simpler than the 2JZ, especially in the engine bay. IMO the only area that’s substantially more difficult is the VVT/VVL but that’s just a difference between modern & old - it’s not actually that complicated just different. Granted I almost exclusively work on modern engines so it’s just a matter of perspective I suppose.
I worked 2 years at a euro shop, worked on bmws, fords, Chevys, Porsches, Maserati anything overseas honestly, focused of bmw most but touched everything. Especially electrical. Personally these bmws are literally legos., engine unplugs with the trans, very simple right in front of your face as long as you know what your doing you can pull and replace any 4 cylinder within an 1 1/2 hours easily. Now i work at Porsche, and this a new learning experience.
I agree with what others are saying, regarding BMW engines, they are nice to work on. I own a Lexus ISF and working on that engine is a lot more complicated for similar jobs when compared to BMW. Spark plugs on a 2UR compared to the S65 is not even close. The Lexus take so much more time to do, but thats just one example. Im still a fan of both companies.
@@CadexLawno wonder the b58 has that huge plastic cover over the engine. It hides the maze of a wires and hoses everywhere. 2jz is as simple as it gets. I don't need any special bmw tools to work on the 2jz. 2jz also has less moving parts, and I don't need to pull the engine, just to work on the timing assembly.
This was so awesome.. Quite informative and presented in clear, technical and precise language, and with the aid of very helpful visual examples and comparisons. Please do more of these!
@@BigGee-i7q BMW E39 M5 engine (S62 V8) still going at 300,000 miles on original parts. BMW engines are among the best ever made. Toyota switched to the BMW B58 for the latest Supra.
Great video, Jay! Very interesting watch. Quite obvious that engineering has come a long way over the decades. I find it incredible that the 2JZ was so well engineered for the time that a comparison to a modern engine 30 years later leads to bickering and arguments. Hats off to Toyota. I just wish we were comparing the 2JZ here today to a 3, 4 or 5JZ and not a BMW motor.
blame toyota for discontinuing their inline six engine family, dont blame bmw for making their own very potent and impressive inline six’s. bmw has and will continue to stay true to their legacy and toyota copped out on their I6 heritage, as did nissan, in typical shameless/greedy automaker fashion. at least BMW sticks to it’s roots and they deserve credit for that. thats why they have such a loyal fanbase.
@@hau5muzeekworse than that, BMW has the S58, a literal homologation race engine, and people conplain their grocery getter engine, which still makes 650ftlbs stock bottom end, can't make 1400hp. They would still blame bmw had the supra only come with a 3 cylinder...
@@laurean5998 even my stage 2 EWG N55 335i is more fun to to do highway pulls in than having sex, these cars are so addictive. the only other brand id even consider is Porsche
Great video Jay! As a BMW technician I had some first hand experience this week into the newest and latest version of the B58 engine. The B58TU2 engine or as the internet likes to call it, gen 3 B58. I replaced the exhaust cam follower switchable rocker arms. These are an advanced version of rocker arm with built in springs and a plunger that will be pushed by a motor operated sliding rail that rides alongside the exhaust cam. Its intended purpose it to reduce losses due to gas exchange during over run phases. I cant wait to see what the aftermarket world will do with this engine in the future.
@@davidrx795 if you highway drive almost exclusively, use mobile 1 extended, change it 7500miles, if mostly city 5k for sure, use mobile1 of Shaffers super synthetic, I have tested both for 5 yrs, way better than liquimoly etc.
People forget that modern engines need to comply with all the emission regulations. We have the technology to make engines better in every possible way but all the regulations and price margins so the companies can be profitable we introduce all the negative stuff. BMW could make this engine indestructible but then is not profitable.
honestly for me it boils down to one thing and that’s simplicity. I get technology has come a long way but just looking at jay take a part that B58 oil pump gave me a headache. Toyota made the 2jz timeless in my opinion. #team2jz
@@johannilssonnilsson6101no,Yamaha did the heads to the 1jz,afterwards the rest is toyo. All the 2jz is is them literally overbuilding the 1jz to make the 2jz.
Will Valvetronic and Auto Start/Stop still be working in 20 years? It could go either way honestly, but whatever gimmicky crap goes wrong on the B58, I'm certain you can tune it out or replace it with simpler hardware and it'll be up there in mileage numbers with the greats.
I think for me (and maybe others) it all comes down to cost and availability to mod an engine. I can appreciate both engines and the new BMW B58 engine is a very good platform but I've been modding the 2JZ for many years now and to me its the better platform but that only due to the fact that all I know is 2JZ and the standard package is so good (if you want to run big power)but most of us are happy with 650-800bhp which the B58 can do. What will be interesting is seeing what it can do at 1000bhp upwards but yet again we are still in the very early stages of the B58 development and you can get 2JZ parts everywhere. Also (and this is only my opinion) I not a fan of how complex the B58 is but that's just BMW making a very efficient and strong engine. Fantastic content again Jay & RealSt
Yeah, i mean it depends. B58 is going to make 400-800 WHP far cheaper and more reliably than any 2j, but after that 800whp mark, the 2j its gonna be cheaper and more reliable than the b58. That being said, 99% of people are gonna be in that Stock-800Whp range
@@wcoleman321 That stock - 800hp number is more feasible for the average person tbh. I don't really see JZ powered cars driving around at all, I only ever see them at motorsport events where it's becoming minimized because its price and availability whereas I run into modified BMWs around me almost every day. Everybody says the BMW is complicated until they work on it themselves and realize it's just a giant Lego. I really find it funny how people keep talking about 1000hp when it's been proven time again most people can barely handle 400hp lmao.
The pistons on the B58 are awesome. Light strong design. Managed to save some weight on the rods too. The Volvo whiteblock engines seem to have a lot of the JZ technology and a little bit of the B58 technology. They're often overlooked, and the aftermarket support is very limited too, but they're great engines.
It's pretty damn impressive. Not only does it make power up to redline despite its heavily undersquare geometry, but that redline sits at 7000 RPM. With a 95mm stroke and non-forged pistons. BMW engineering at its finest, even when all the accessories start leaking and the rubber gaskets start cracking, that bottom end will keep on fighting.
@GarciaQ60 I was throwing the Volvo whiteblock in for comparison, because I see a lot of similarities. The Volvo whiteblock doesn't have a very much aftermarket support.
A bit of misinformation on the b58 oil pump. It's not a two stage pump, but actually two pumps in one. The front half is the oil pump and the back half is a vacuum pump for the brakes, not a scavenge pump for the oil pump.
Yea in the video Jay said on the pressure side you have the pickup, what!?! That wouldnt work out well i dont think. And the scavage side goes to the block, if the scavage side goes to an oil galley/passage that wouldnt work out to well either pulling oil away from your bearings. I could see pulling from drainback areas. Weird for Jay not to edit in a correction, he had to notice.
The oil pump was revised at some point so it no longer has the plastic housing inside. On the gen 2 engine I think (although not 100% sure) it's now just an oil pump on the high power version. I'm not sure what they're fitting to the gen 3 engine, most likely a similar arrangement for the gen 2 engine (vacuum and oil on lower power and just oil on the higher power variant).
B58 is lighter and much much more efficient but as with most comparisons each engine has its pros and cons. The inherent complexity of the b58 gives it a little more failure potential despite it being very well built. If the money is there either one is a formidable engine for making outright power but the 20 years of development tuning the 2j currently makes it the king. We will see more from the b58 as time goes on. Excellent video
I don't get why people are complaining that it is a BMW engine, if Toyota made an I6 that meets all the new emission standards it wouldn't be less complex (take for example the G16E-GTS in the GR Yaris). Yes the Germans like to overengineer things, and if it was Japanese you wouldn't have Valvetronic, but this is about where it ends. Vanos is as reliable as VVT-i. You would need pretty much all of the things a B58 has even if it was a Toyota-made engine, and Toyota had a finger in the development of that engine so they didn't simply buy a BMW and throw a Toyota badge on it. Every new engine is going to be less reliable than an old one (if both were made today). We shouldn't blame Toyota or BMW about it, we should blame the government regulations on emissions that force car manufacturers to cut costs in order to put useless emission systems on cars. Both of these engines are marvels of their time, able to handle above 1000whp, sure Aluminum isn't as strong as good old Iron, but Toyota does not put engines made of Iron in their cars anymore as well. I think you could still order a 2JZ from Toyota with their heritage program (or whatever it was called), but you must understand they can't put it in a car and sell it because of government regulations who think that reducing 0.5% emissions on cars (which produce about 5% of the CO2 in the world) is going to save the planet, while in the meantime they don't touch the big guys who produce a lot more CO2. I am a big JDM fan who can't afford the JDM tax, so I drive an E46 330Ci with an M54B30 engine, after 500,000 km I decided to give it a sanity check and do a full service (bearings, piston rings and etc.) and while there was some wear, the engine never failed. Still factory headgasket and bearings... had it resurfaced, received a nice thick headgasket, gapped rings, racing bearings and I am planning to turbo it... Enjoy what you have if it works, don't be an elitist, soon we wont be able to do anything to our cars when everything becomes electric anyway... the governments are actively trying to kill our hobby...
💯 I’ve got an E46 330ci sport, and I can’t drive it, it’s parked up on my driveway. In my opinion it’s one of the best cars BMW ever made! As you’ve said because of the damn silly emission the bloody government is killing off our livelihood. I remember as a kid I use to go out on a Saturday night to the Chelsea cruise around the Battersea park area.
In terms of solely combustion design, I'd prefer the B58 6 port. The undersquare design leads to better torque production over the rev range and better thermal efficiency with the coatings, and the less surface area for combustion. All these 2J circlejerk about the "let's see a BMW engine that runs 5's" completely misses the point that the 2J is a hunk of iron, and these teams use billet blocks that vaguely resemble a 2JZ. Not to mention that these fanboys wouldn't even handle the power that a fully built 2J has. There's a reason why a 3S race engine was put inside the Super GT Castrol TOM'S Supra. I don't like the integrated exhaust manifold from the B58 because it killed way too much flow for a restriction. Honda did it better with their K20C family of engines. 4Piston tested the single vs 4-port with minimal flow loss (~10%) from the integrated manifold, and porting one made it flow even better than the K20A. Papadakis said in an HPA interview that switching to the 6-port unlocked more than 300hp at high revs. With such a small aperture and poor geometry, it suffers at making it sing at >7k rpm. Toyota could have made an inline 6 based on the G16E-GTS platform, but they didn't. They have a marginally better combustion design, on a much more trusted package. I'd trust the VVTi-W albeit the dual injection being a potential liability from Toyota more than BMW's Valvetronic and plastic components, and the rear timing chain layout.
@@rickcupola6262 Well said, I fully agree with everything. The 2 port head is a lost potential. About the power, most BMW I6 engines, are capable of handling 600hp (with forged, low compression pistons) and engines like the N54 are proven to handle more than 1000hp, which is more than enough for everyone, but when it comes to drivability, you won't run slicks (mainly because its illegal) in order to put that power down, so there is no reason to do it on a road car. For me, running semi-slicks which are road legal, 400-450hp is enough for a car that weighs 1400kg to have some serious fun in it.
I've really enjoyed this video. I'm a big fan of the JZ-family (owned multiple 1JZ sedans and have a project-car MkIV Supra). I think the B58 is the "2J for the 21st century" and will prove to be an amazing platform in the long run. I really like the reduced weight of an aluminum engine and air-water intercooler integration. Where I live in Japan, I don't think any shop is building or tuning B58s. I'm not a car mechanic or mechanical engineer by trade. If I wanted to get started on building & selling mild (~500-600hp) built B58s to the local community, where would I start, in terms of training resources, and what equipment do I need to purchase?
Go visit the big tuning shops that do this over there so you get an idea. The power levels you speak of can be achieved with mild tunes so the first thing you should do is learning how to tune and what equipment you'll need to get it done properly + marketing. You need to make a name for yourself and that takes time and/or the right customers to get the word out. You'll need a few of those engines to dismantle, work on, study and tune effectively + testing, data logging to make sure your tuning is sound and produces reliable results. Papadakis reckons the internals are fine for ~1000hp stock so your 5 - 600 goal is ez pz. Decide whether you want to learn to tune factory ecu's or do engine swaps with standalone ecu's. Get a development car according to your choice. Work your ass off. Before all that, dig deep to be sure nobody else is doing it and whether you can create a demand for it. There are so many online tuning options nowadays that one can probably order an obd2 interface and generic tune for that power for like 500 bucks. You could start by offering to get that done for people and learn to look up the factory maps to compare to online tune maps (try a few if there are multiple such services) then learn to customize and optimize those maps for specific mods that might be added like cold air intakes and exhausts, downpipes etc... Good luck.
Actually, the motor Papadakis put together for ~1000hp on stock internals may have been a S58 instead of a B58 but the B is still probably able to easily handle 600hp+, just looking at how it's put together and the quality of the parts.
Once again Jay blessing the masses with his knowledge and technical breakdown....💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💯P.S. when's the next open house at real street...I need to hear some cars rip on the Dyno... It's been too long😂😂😂😂😂😂
I think you should have mentioned the difference in weight, fuel economy and driveability. The 2jz weighs 50% (139 vs 205ish kg) more and probably uses 50% more fuel, takes twice as long to get up to temp and takes a lot longer to spool a turbo. One engine is great for racing >1000hp and the other is perfect for daily driving a 600+hp car. If 650ftlbs on a stock bottom end doesn't make you happy maybe you should get an actual performance engine (s58) anyways?
S58 still doesn't stack up in stoutness. And this video wasn't about performance vs performance if you listened Jay was just showing break down and measurement but hey when a bmw motor is capable of holding 2500 plus HP let us know.
@@hatch450sx3 You're comparing a motor that has been exploited to crank out every ounce of power by the tuning/enthusiast community for 20+ years versus one that's been out for... 3 years? S58s are making 1000+ HP on a stock motor with DPs, a tune, and hybrid turbos -- and already running 9.00 1/4 mile times. Can't imagine where the S58 platform will be with the same amount of time and part development behind it but I'm sure it'll be handing out L's left and right.
I am honestly going to send this video to my friends because I learned so much about much each part of an engine works like that it is an incredible video love it❤❤❤
Fantastic video. The few questions I didn't see answered are: 1) tuning HP likelihood for the aluminum-block BMW? Does modernity make up for the less-strong metal? 2) heads are both aluminum? 3) difficulty of adjusting both cams? 4) power actually saved by the vaned pump? 5) curious why the smaller bore and longer stroke of the BMW? 6) do both have interference should the belt/chain break? 7) difference in weight between the blocks vs. difference in weight fully dressed?
I know but two of these questions, longer stroke because BMW wanted higher compression while maintaining 3.0 displacement. So subtract from bore and increase stroke, also B58 Is interference, 2jz is not
Another phenomenal and in-depth technical video by Jay....one of the (if not thee) number 1 people that have taken the 2j to where it is all while explaining it in layman terms. Great work as always Jay.
Don’t forget, that the B58 block was designed to be a Diesel engine. Hence the high compression. That’s why you can run these crazy powers on the stock block
bingo i work at cummins and the compression of a 3.0 diesel standard block can hold up to 1500 lb tq for 4 hours constant the b58 is perfect cradle why the s58 is even better with forged internals just rebuild top end ( intake and turbos better fuel mix) and u have a supercar. 150k of daily beating is crazy if u drive them as transpo 400k is easily attainable with 5 to 6 k oil changes not 8 to 10k
it wasn't designed to be diesel engine.. its was designed to be modular engine (3,4,6 cyl, same parts for piston, rods, head) compression ratio has nothing to do with block design. VW runs even higher CR in their engines, and smaller bores. Why you can run crazy power on stock block has to do with material thickness, cad/cae of block flex, good engineering of fasteners, gasket, piston and rods. Also not saving up on parts and castings.(like in past)... VW has to be looked up/thanked for quality of casting and processes and their improvement in German automotive industry (e.g. 07K, 07L/BUJ, EA113/EA888)
@@moneyshifters its really the S58 that should be compared with 2JZ, not the B58. 2JZ were an expensive engine going into a relative expensive car. that said stock and tuned the B58 is better in just every way possible to the 2JZ except for 700hp+
The oil pump on the BMW engine is a vacuum pump and oil pump. The side with multiple vanes is for oil. The side with 2 vanes is vacuum for brake assist. (MINI master tech)
You are totally right. It is very important not to give wrong information to the people. Some of BMW engines have a scavenging pump, but B58 doesn't have it.
News flash it's been done it's average why do you Barra clowns always comment on jz videos oh the Barra..run along your Barra shit sounding thing is not even in the same world as the jz and lots others.aust bogans and there' dreams.
I'm an N54 owner and am happy to see the B58 learn from the gremlins that I have had to deal with. From what I've seen it will be the next powerplant in my next car I own for sure.
Yep, as an N54 owner myself I will be stepping up to the 340 soon. I love the n54 but man it sure does test my patience. Still a beast, and I love that car. The 2J is a great engine, but good luck finding one.
@@DeezNuds they are great when they are working properly, have you considered the n55 powerplant? I feel like if I had the knowledge now that I did when I got my 335i it would have been with an n55 since I am not really looking to pump more than 400hp and would want the reliability
This proves how great the new engine is. I love my 2j but the technical advantage the b58 has in my opinion if you want 1000whp daily torque streetable amazing response b58 more than that 1000-1800hp monster 2j unless they do billet b58 blocks then you’ll never need a 2j. All the cool tech I wish was in my 2j come standard in the b58
There are built B58s out there already touching 13-1500hp(2 of the 3 fastest in the world making that power). I'd say billet maybe a option once they start touching 17-2khp maybe but they say it still has room for power with the built B58s still so the future is pretty bright in seeing how far they can be pushed.
So I'm going to debunk that right here. The b58 will never be able to make the power levels a 2jz can make simply because the 2jz flows air much better than the b58. The 2jz has bigger intake and exhaust ports, bigger valves and had a 6 port exhaust head. Air is the key to power. The more air you can flow, the more power you make.
I don’t get how people are turning this into such a debate lol. Either engine gets great power with the money put into it. I do think many people think that the 2J pushes 1500whp completely stock lol. Like it’s not in god mode right off the bat.
A used 2JZ-GTE and a used B58 cost about the same which makes me laugh a little. I appreciate that people like Real Street and Papadakis Racing are developing the B58 for high HP applications vs being intimidated by new technology
The first Gen B58’s had a 6 port outlet for the manifold didn’t they? Great video by the way. It’s nice to see another such detailed tear down and comparison to the 2JZ. Both fantastic engines.
the valvetronik is also good to avoid turbolag, because the boostpressure is always directly up to the valves and doesn't need to travel from the throttlebody up to the valves. sure that isn't a problem on the dragstrip, but when running on and normal track it gives you instant power so it feels more like an natrually aspiratet engine and not like an turbocharged engine
@@YoumomisBeautiful72k miles on my M240i, no issues. I know people with many more miles and have no issues. The N52 definitely had teething issues, but the system has largely been refined since its introduction 2 decades ago. And every Valvetronic motor has a throttle body as a backup in case the Valvetronic goes bad, the valves lock to full lift and the engine will run on the throttle body until its repaired.
@@YoumomisBeautiful engines at bmw get designed to hold atleast 300,000km (186,000 miles) only with maintainance, the cars they use as long term testers dont have problems 🤷♂️ nearly every bmw in germany has no problems, as long as you maintain them properly they hold up
My humble opinion. B58 is the new King. Why: 1. B58 can handle more power reliably, than a 2JZ. A 2JZ block can handle upwards of 800hp BUT it’s internals can’t handle that reliably. It’s good for about 600hp before a rebuild and upgrade are needed. A B58 can handle just as much, if not more, without needing to be rebuilt/upgraded. 2. It’s very expensive to build a 2JZ. People don’t talk about this that often. They just say “Check out this 1000whp+ Supra!”, and leave out that it cost upwards of $100k to get it there reliably. To get a B58 to 1000whp reliably costs a lot less. 3. Drivability of a modded B58 is a lot, and I mean A LOT smoother than a modded 2JZ. Boost threshold is a lot less on the B58 vs the 2JZ. B58 fuel economy is a lot better. 4. Sound is subjective. I personally like the sound of the B58 more than the 2JZ. But I do have to give it to the 2JZ, because without it, I don’t think manufactures today would be focusing as much on the sound.
correct, my favorite part is when people leave out the cost. A stock turbo b58 is making 500hp with just a downpipe and tune prob with a bit of a E blend which is insane! Switching from Comfort and Sport and feeling the difference is night and day for comfortability and gas mileage (lol). Being able to make power and comfortably and to easily adjust maps from your phone while getting groceries on stock ecu is a blessing too. I'm a huge 2jz fan too but the Toyota fanboyism needs to chill and give credit where its due. Lol also putting a single exit gives it the 2jz sound ironically
My thoughts exactly... As a long life Supra owner, I remember wanting a 2jz back when I was boosting my mk3 Supra. And now today I own 5 2jz engine's. Supra and 4 Lexus Gs300's. I wouldn't trade my jz block for anything out there today. Just an amazing easy to mod engine with less stress.🏁🏁🏁⭐😎
great comparison, since the b58 has a smaller bore diameter and longer stroke than the 2j, would that also mean at stock bore/stroke the 2j would be more safe to rev higher?
@@burdazza2711 Jay did say the B58 has a longer rod, but it would be nice to know the exact ratio. Papadakis rev their B58 to 9k in FD, so it's not like it can't rev. Unfortunately modern fuel economy standards will not allow oversquare engine configurations, in mainstream engines anyway...
@@Sunburnae92If you want to go racing 1000+hp and you pick the b58, an engine designed for lightweight, driveability and economy over the S58, a literal homologation race engine, that is all we need to know about you. And don't blame BMW for Toyota putting the non-perforance engine in the Supra. I feel like you guys would still blame BMW engines for not making 1400hp had it come with their 3 cylinder.
I hate the the cam gears and timing system on the backside of the engine would be a pain to work on on the B58 and all the plastic parts suck too at the end of the day it’s still a European engine so if there’s no oil underneath then there ain’t no oil in it 😅
Sadly, this is true. Coming from someone that had multiple 90's and early 2000 BMW's. Oil was the lease of the worries that i encountered. But when they ran it was BEAUTIFUL! Tick Toc!!!
@@slezyorla eh? there's the cam seals, (possible vvti gear), valve cover, crank seal and rear main - it's relatively easy to sort the leaks on a JZ. You're thinking of some other engine
can we please get 2jz vs s58 and call it a day . but every time i watch a Jay video, i swear i become smarter . Jay was the right person to explain the differences to us
One thing i think alot of people forget, we arnt all trying to make 1500 hp. 99% of people the B58 is FAR superior. It make power more easily and cheaply, its more drivable, it gets better gas mileage has way more torque, and way less lag and makes more HP stock. I know people are gonna get mad, but its ok, the B58 is over 20 years newer and one of the most advanced engines in the world. All that time went in to making the best engine for most people (Yes even for 700-800whp). If you want to make 1500 hp, 2j is king
We can make reliably 1500hp in BMW S58 with help of some turbos, upgraded injection system, new camshaft and stroking, it's quite undersquared. B58/S58 block is derived from bmw diesel block. In Germany, some lunatics are closing in, but we still have pump gas with 102 Ron
Weight is king in a sports car, especially if it’s front engined, as Colin Chapman said power will make you faster in the straights, lightness will make you faster everywhere...
Well from my opinion based on this video let the small war between B58 vs 2JZ finally come to a end. Both are great engines, with a bright future for the B58 to become the true successor to the 2JZ engine.
I’m so tired of all the troll comments saying the MK5 is a BMW or ugly or not reliable or a zupra or Z4, if you don’t like the car move on and buy what you enjoy. To me the Supra now owning a manual Transmission is a fantastic platform and I literally have no bias. I’ve owned over 50 cars personally and just about everything shy of HyperCars. If you want to make some damn good power reliably and have a unique platform that breaks necks and eats up the track and roll races this is a great platform. I personally wouldn’t own an automatic but as soon as Toyota designed a MT for the car I was all in. It’s one of the best MT gearboxes I’ve ever experienced super tight, notchy and no play at all. It’s like driving a video game every day I personally love this car and that I have 1 of 1236 MT made and the rarity of this car driving around town. I like nostalgia and having cars you don’t see every day like BMW’s, Corvettes, mustangs, etc this car will be a limited production and carry a name for itself as the pinnacle of BMW and Toyotas legacy’s together as incredible designers. They hands down make some of the most recognized sports cars in the history of car manufacturing I don’t think you could ask for a better combination of engineers to have your back creating the next and final Toyota Supra I know they did my Manual Supra right I have no complaints other than visibility and space, but you don’t buy this car for those needs you own another one and drive this on the weekends and keep it nice and don’t sell it ever! It’s one hell of a car I’ll tell you that and a bucket list checked of this is literally a dream car to me and I own one and couldn’t be more satisfied they did it right. Even insane MPG out of a performance car and MT gearbox. Thank you Toyota, thank you BMW for bringing us this masterpiece. 🙏
So overall from what I gather is the B58 is a great engine but the 2jz still have a bit of the upper hand from a performance stand point. Iron block vs spray in liner Less moving parts in the oil pump 6 port exhaust Bigger valve/combustion chamber area.
Yes, but BMW has the S58, an actual worthy competitor, and the 2jz is so heavy it could be compared to the S63 V8. What is the point of an I6 as heavy as a twin turbo V8 using as much fuel as a V8?
@laurean5998 i do agree that it's heavy but that is because it's an iron block and that definitely helps when thinking about the integrity of the block for holding MASSIVE amount of horsepower. Because of it heavy construction no additional sleeving in the cylinders is needed , add some billet main caps and that block is good for upwards of 1600hp, show me another lightweight production block that can do that without sleeves or other cylinder support.
Fun fact Toyota helped or co- developed the B58 engine, doing reliability testing , checking every nut,bolt & screw , even sending BMW back to fix things where necessary, just to ensure that its up to Toyota quality standard. So its not like a donation or toyota riding bmw tech. Infact one could argue BMW benefitted more, learning reliability from toyota, what did Toyota gain that could already make sports cars. Toyota also co-developed the chassis with BMW to get that near perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The Supra/z4 is essentially different cars created independently using a shared Lego set with no collaboration beyond parts development. Basically they Could created the parts, but made the cars separate as German anti trust laws prevent that. So they made the beat ( chassis engine) together, but wrote their Rhymes separate and alone. When BMW approached upon seeingb the sucess of the BRZ/86 that's what had in mind. Based on chassis tuning & handling, many ppl say Toyota made the better BMW as the Supra is widely preferred to the Z4.
The Z4 is different enough to separate the intended customers, Z4 owners to likely be older and weather with no desire to track the car - more like LC500 customers. Those cars are grand touring cars that still look great, but not exciting.
Compromising your B58 cylinder head because of a spark plug overheating is something that will not replace an engine that doesn’t come close to having thay issue.
Compare these engines to the barra 4.0 inline 6 next, that thing is a juggernaut compared to these 2. B58 - 350lbs, 2jz- 440lbs, barra 4.0 - 525 lbs, 1 extra litre of displacement and is much taller than the other engines aswell.
I’ve been waiting for this. I feel the b58 is awesome even though I hav a 2j. Dual vvti is the biggest thing I wish the 2j had you can make great power and with aluminum block you shave weight. B58 is the future but also codeveloped with Toyota so lessons learned were passed to b58 from the jz. If your doing a swap or build b58 with direct injection just add a secondary rail with 2000 cc injectors your good well into 1500hp
b58 was out long before toyota came to bmw for the new supra, probably threw in a couple of ideas but it was all marketing talk by toyota to keep the fanboys happy
Who lied to you about the B58 being co developed with Toyota? Was it the same guy that said the fake vents can be made functional if you just cut into the structural support of the car?
I picked up a 98Aristo v3 while I was in Japan. Trying to get more experience and QT with my pops. I was thinking a B58 but thought it would be different bringing JDM to the states because it’s not common seeing 2jz gte. He’s also 6’7 so my options were slim considering I’d like him to drive with me. So I couldn’t get an rx7 or s14. And this video helps me understand that the 2jz is friendlier on me as a beginner 😂
No need for a war here, they’re both great engines. Yes, the BMW is more complicated, but that’s what technological advancement looks like. I say if you want the most efficient and responsive street engine, the BMW motor walks all over the 2J. But the 2J is more of a known quantity for high hp builds and lots of Indy techs can work on them. We just need Jay to start building the Beemer engines now. “B58” Jay it shall be! 😅
I think bmw have the right idea but the extra complication and moving parts and sheer amount of electronics and things that can go wrong is immense. If you’re on a drag week and your b58 breaks it won’t be an easy simple fix or cheap. 2j is still king followed closely by a Barra
The barra isn't close. I was telling BMW fanboys from the start their alloy block will never compete with a 2j because it won't. The barras have a weaker casting similar to Rb26 and have horribly thin bores too. The next cast block I6 would be the RD28/ Rb30.
@@lennixsingh626 that’s fine but I don’t think we have seen the real limits yet. Jz block also has its limits but comparing cast aluminum block in a sports car to a boat anchor iron block is a big weird. Both are great engines. When people make block limiting power they all switch to billet blocks anyhow.
@@zethloveless7238 We already found the limits of cast barras. Theres people who have pushed them to 2000hp but they never last over 1500hp for long, the bores and block don't last. The JZ long block is also extremely light. Its just heavy in factory form with the the twin turbos and all the useless gear in place. 2j's can hold around 70-80psi before they start splitting the deck and ballooning the 7mm Siamese bores. I will say tho, pushing anything over 1400 in any inline 6 should be the right time to go to a billet block for longevity.
So basically, the 2JZ was way ahead of its time and is still badass, and the B58 has some flaws, but they're relatively minor and it's about as good of a performance oriented engine as you can get in this day and age with emissions controls and the neverending quest for moar powah!
20 years apart, and still taking the germans to school... No BMW engine will ever last as long as a Toyota engine... The built in reserve and tunability in the JZ lines is just mind boggling... Almost as if they went and decided - we gonna build te 1JZ and 2JZ engines as Easter Eggs with different layers for curious explorers to unfold... Man alive, have they cracked that!
We need this to become a series!
B18C vs K20A, 4G63 vs 4B11, EJ207 vs FA20, VQ37 vs VR30
There's so many engines id love to be compared like this but these are killer suggestions
👀 📝
That would be sick fr. I've seen someone do the 4b11 vs 4g63 but I'd love to see jay do it.
d16 vs f23 would be sickk (at least to me i love single cams)
@@realstreetperformanceS58 vs 2jz vs b58
Man as a BMW owner (N52,S55), watching him break down the engine parts just showed me all of the failure points of a modern turbo BMW engine lol. Vanos, valve lifters, valvetronic, high pressure fuel pump, valve cover gasket, crank hub, timing chain. The 2JZ might be simple design but it works.
You know what, the LS is very compact, even simpler and no heavier than a 2jz, why not just use that?
@@laurean5998 I like the sound and balance and smoothness of an inline 6 better
Cross plane v8s are quite smooth, especially with modern mounts.
You call those failure points? 😂
Those are advances in technology. A stock jz will never make the same power for the same amount of time a modern stock internal bmw inline 6 will.
BMW tech here, your N52 and S55 are both reliable engines, just make sure to not go over the miles for your oil services as that is the main killer of any engine and will cause premature wear for your timing chain and valvetronic system. The items you listed are not common failure points, save for the valve cover gasket, oil pan gasket, and oil filter housing gasket.
There’s no denying the simplicity of the 2JZ just makes for such a sweet power plant
One is a mess of vacuum lines, the other is a mess of wires. It's a pick your poison sort of deal.
B58 have a plastic parts inside the engine 😅
most 1000hp 2J's lasted barely 10,000kms of tracking. RB's lasted decades. not even a comparision. 2J was junk
@@keirbrown7734 junk is a stretch, but not as good as the internet makes it seem, for sure
@@Choomphol the coyote 5.0 and lexus has plastics too so tf is your point
Quality 30 years repairing cars still learning thanks
In my opinion, yes both engines are very potent and powerful out from the factory, but there’s also the side of repairing and ease of service as with any engines. 20 yrs into the future I think this important factor should’ve been considered by its engineers, but I’m only a Toyota technician just something to consider, when we break down as car enthusiasts we actually want to do an on-site diagnosis and repair just saying, speed isn’t everything, simplicity is “KISS” keep it simple stupid and enjoy 😅😂😊
As someone that gets paid to work on BMW engines, to me the B58 is actually simpler than the 2JZ, especially in the engine bay. IMO the only area that’s substantially more difficult is the VVT/VVL but that’s just a difference between modern & old - it’s not actually that complicated just different.
Granted I almost exclusively work on modern engines so it’s just a matter of perspective I suppose.
@@CadexLaw with your experience if we gave you a 2jz to work on you’d probably feel like you are over qualified. Too simple
I worked 2 years at a euro shop, worked on bmws, fords, Chevys, Porsches, Maserati anything overseas honestly, focused of bmw most but touched everything. Especially electrical. Personally these bmws are literally legos., engine unplugs with the trans, very simple right in front of your face as long as you know what your doing you can pull and replace any 4 cylinder within an 1 1/2 hours easily. Now i work at Porsche, and this a new learning experience.
I agree with what others are saying, regarding BMW engines, they are nice to work on. I own a Lexus ISF and working on that engine is a lot more complicated for similar jobs when compared to BMW. Spark plugs on a 2UR compared to the S65 is not even close. The Lexus take so much more time to do, but thats just one example. Im still a fan of both companies.
@@CadexLawno wonder the b58 has that huge plastic cover over the engine. It hides the maze of a wires and hoses everywhere. 2jz is as simple as it gets. I don't need any special bmw tools to work on the 2jz. 2jz also has less moving parts, and I don't need to pull the engine, just to work on the timing assembly.
This was so awesome.. Quite informative and presented in clear, technical and precise language, and with the aid of very helpful visual examples and comparisons. Please do more of these!
Incredible that you are comparing an early 90s engine to a modern day engine. The 2JZ was well ahead of it's time.
He used words such as "dated" to describe 2JZ components.
@@SupraSav I'll take my "dated" Supra over the new options, any day of the week.
Dated = made to last. BWM engines are R&Ded to last just past your warranty 😂
@@BigGee-i7q the b58 is reliable man. great platform
@@BigGee-i7q BMW E39 M5 engine (S62 V8) still going at 300,000 miles on original parts. BMW engines are among the best ever made. Toyota switched to the BMW B58 for the latest Supra.
Great video, Jay! Very interesting watch. Quite obvious that engineering has come a long way over the decades. I find it incredible that the 2JZ was so well engineered for the time that a comparison to a modern engine 30 years later leads to bickering and arguments. Hats off to Toyota. I just wish we were comparing the 2JZ here today to a 3, 4 or 5JZ and not a BMW motor.
Yea Toyota deff. missed that perfect alley oop to make a modern JZ engine.
blame toyota for discontinuing their inline six engine family, dont blame bmw for making their own very potent and impressive inline six’s. bmw has and will continue to stay true to their legacy and toyota copped out on their I6 heritage, as did nissan, in typical shameless/greedy automaker fashion. at least BMW sticks to it’s roots and they deserve credit for that. thats why they have such a loyal fanbase.
@@hau5muzeekworse than that, BMW has the S58, a literal homologation race engine, and people conplain their grocery getter engine, which still makes 650ftlbs stock bottom end, can't make 1400hp. They would still blame bmw had the supra only come with a 3 cylinder...
@@laurean5998 even my stage 2 EWG N55 335i is more fun to to do highway pulls in than having sex, these cars are so addictive. the only other brand id even consider is Porsche
@@hau5muzeek🤡🤡🤡🤡
I got the G42 M240i a few weeks back, once you get about 800 miles the b58 engine really opens up. great engine
The break-in period for my 2024 Supra is 1200 miles with no more than 100 mph and 4500 rpm. I still have 800 miles to go.
Great video Jay! As a BMW technician I had some first hand experience this week into the newest and latest version of the B58 engine. The B58TU2 engine or as the internet likes to call it, gen 3 B58. I replaced the exhaust cam follower switchable rocker arms. These are an advanced version of rocker arm with built in springs and a plunger that will be pushed by a motor operated sliding rail that rides alongside the exhaust cam. Its intended purpose it to reduce losses due to gas exchange during over run phases. I cant wait to see what the aftermarket world will do with this engine in the future.
Just buy something less shit
@@davidrx795 if you highway drive almost exclusively, use mobile 1 extended, change it 7500miles, if mostly city 5k for sure, use mobile1 of Shaffers super synthetic, I have tested both for 5 yrs, way better than liquimoly etc.
As a bmw tech. What?
@@davidrx795The 2024 Supra B58 calls for 10,000 mile oil changes or one year. I'll probably put no more than 3000/year on my Supra.
@@davepaturno4290I've had my 2023 Supra A91 6MT for close to a year now and barely have 3,357 miles. It's my weekend driver 😂
People forget that modern engines need to comply with all the emission regulations. We have the technology to make engines better in every possible way but all the regulations and price margins so the companies can be profitable we introduce all the negative stuff. BMW could make this engine indestructible but then is not profitable.
it wouldn't see the light of day but would be nice to see BMW show us a 1 off version lmao
honestly for me it boils down to one thing and that’s simplicity. I get technology has come a long way but just looking at jay take a part that B58 oil pump gave me a headache. Toyota made the 2jz timeless in my opinion. #team2jz
KISS method; "The best part is no part" -Elon
A little information for you. Toyota did not build the 2jz, Yamaha did.
@@johannilssonnilsson6101no,Yamaha did the heads to the 1jz,afterwards the rest is toyo. All the 2jz is is them literally overbuilding the 1jz to make the 2jz.
If everyone thought like you we would still be riding horses😄
Will Valvetronic and Auto Start/Stop still be working in 20 years? It could go either way honestly, but whatever gimmicky crap goes wrong on the B58, I'm certain you can tune it out or replace it with simpler hardware and it'll be up there in mileage numbers with the greats.
I love my B58 M140i non OPF...this Vid confirmed it again. Thanks so much!
Me too !
me too (sadly OPF but soon to be de-OPF’d… shhh 🤫)
I think for me (and maybe others) it all comes down to cost and availability to mod an engine. I can appreciate both engines and the new BMW B58 engine is a very good platform but I've been modding the 2JZ for many years now and to me its the better platform but that only due to the fact that all I know is 2JZ and the standard package is so good (if you want to run big power)but most of us are happy with 650-800bhp which the B58 can do. What will be interesting is seeing what it can do at 1000bhp upwards but yet again we are still in the very early stages of the B58 development and you can get 2JZ parts everywhere. Also (and this is only my opinion) I not a fan of how complex the B58 is but that's just BMW making a very efficient and strong engine. Fantastic content again Jay & RealSt
Yeah, i mean it depends. B58 is going to make 400-800 WHP far cheaper and more reliably than any 2j, but after that 800whp mark, the 2j its gonna be cheaper and more reliable than the b58. That being said, 99% of people are gonna be in that Stock-800Whp range
@@wcoleman321 That stock - 800hp number is more feasible for the average person tbh. I don't really see JZ powered cars driving around at all, I only ever see them at motorsport events where it's becoming minimized because its price and availability whereas I run into modified BMWs around me almost every day. Everybody says the BMW is complicated until they work on it themselves and realize it's just a giant Lego. I really find it funny how people keep talking about 1000hp when it's been proven time again most people can barely handle 400hp lmao.
Papadakis has been running the B58 a couple of seasons now in FD.
I say with just a couple specialist tools and some machine work we're good.
The pistons on the B58 are awesome. Light strong design. Managed to save some weight on the rods too. The Volvo whiteblock engines seem to have a lot of the JZ technology and a little bit of the B58 technology. They're often overlooked, and the aftermarket support is very limited too, but they're great engines.
The b58 has a massive aftermarket, what are you talking about? Obviously little compared to the 2jz, but it’s still massive.
It's pretty damn impressive. Not only does it make power up to redline despite its heavily undersquare geometry, but that redline sits at 7000 RPM. With a 95mm stroke and non-forged pistons. BMW engineering at its finest, even when all the accessories start leaking and the rubber gaskets start cracking, that bottom end will keep on fighting.
@GarciaQ60 I was throwing the Volvo whiteblock in for comparison, because I see a lot of similarities. The Volvo whiteblock doesn't have a very much aftermarket support.
@@porschelover04 BMW has been doing its best to tame long strokes as it moved away from square NA engines, the b58 being an impressive triumph.
It was also designed by Yamaha if I’m not mistaken
What a great overview video,well done lads!!
This would be a great concept for a on-going series!!
A bit of misinformation on the b58 oil pump. It's not a two stage pump, but actually two pumps in one. The front half is the oil pump and the back half is a vacuum pump for the brakes, not a scavenge pump for the oil pump.
Exactly right. Was going to comment but you got it covered!
Is the newer oil pump on the b58 still have plastic inside? I have the b58C
Yea in the video Jay said on the pressure side you have the pickup, what!?! That wouldnt work out well i dont think. And the scavage side goes to the block, if the scavage side goes to an oil galley/passage that wouldnt work out to well either pulling oil away from your bearings. I could see pulling from drainback areas. Weird for Jay not to edit in a correction, he had to notice.
The oil pump was revised at some point so it no longer has the plastic housing inside. On the gen 2 engine I think (although not 100% sure) it's now just an oil pump on the high power version. I'm not sure what they're fitting to the gen 3 engine, most likely a similar arrangement for the gen 2 engine (vacuum and oil on lower power and just oil on the higher power variant).
B58 is lighter and much much more efficient but as with most comparisons each engine has its pros and cons. The inherent complexity of the b58 gives it a little more failure potential despite it being very well built. If the money is there either one is a formidable engine for making outright power but the 20 years of development tuning the 2j currently makes it the king. We will see more from the b58 as time goes on.
Excellent video
yeah .. more failures #BMW
2jz was and is an incredible engine that withstood over 1000hp in many supras with… a turbo and headstuds
It is one of the kings for inline 6s
You deconstructed and compared every little single point of each brand's components, so brilliantly🤯
Kudos to you man.
This video was done so well. Good job all around!
Great video, I tried to keep an open mind with this comparison only to discover that the b58 is more practical on the workbench in a million pieces.
I don't get why people are complaining that it is a BMW engine, if Toyota made an I6 that meets all the new emission standards it wouldn't be less complex (take for example the G16E-GTS in the GR Yaris). Yes the Germans like to overengineer things, and if it was Japanese you wouldn't have Valvetronic, but this is about where it ends. Vanos is as reliable as VVT-i. You would need pretty much all of the things a B58 has even if it was a Toyota-made engine, and Toyota had a finger in the development of that engine so they didn't simply buy a BMW and throw a Toyota badge on it. Every new engine is going to be less reliable than an old one (if both were made today).
We shouldn't blame Toyota or BMW about it, we should blame the government regulations on emissions that force car manufacturers to cut costs in order to put useless emission systems on cars. Both of these engines are marvels of their time, able to handle above 1000whp, sure Aluminum isn't as strong as good old Iron, but Toyota does not put engines made of Iron in their cars anymore as well. I think you could still order a 2JZ from Toyota with their heritage program (or whatever it was called), but you must understand they can't put it in a car and sell it because of government regulations who think that reducing 0.5% emissions on cars (which produce about 5% of the CO2 in the world) is going to save the planet, while in the meantime they don't touch the big guys who produce a lot more CO2.
I am a big JDM fan who can't afford the JDM tax, so I drive an E46 330Ci with an M54B30 engine, after 500,000 km I decided to give it a sanity check and do a full service (bearings, piston rings and etc.) and while there was some wear, the engine never failed. Still factory headgasket and bearings... had it resurfaced, received a nice thick headgasket, gapped rings, racing bearings and I am planning to turbo it... Enjoy what you have if it works, don't be an elitist, soon we wont be able to do anything to our cars when everything becomes electric anyway... the governments are actively trying to kill our hobby...
Not the governments, the democrats in the US. We need to get back to common sense and away from the "one answer" policies.
💯 I’ve got an E46 330ci sport, and I can’t drive it, it’s parked up on my driveway. In my opinion it’s one of the best cars BMW ever made! As you’ve said because of the damn silly emission the bloody government is killing off our livelihood. I remember as a kid I use to go out on a Saturday night to the Chelsea cruise around the Battersea park area.
In terms of solely combustion design, I'd prefer the B58 6 port. The undersquare design leads to better torque production over the rev range and better thermal efficiency with the coatings, and the less surface area for combustion. All these 2J circlejerk about the "let's see a BMW engine that runs 5's" completely misses the point that the 2J is a hunk of iron, and these teams use billet blocks that vaguely resemble a 2JZ. Not to mention that these fanboys wouldn't even handle the power that a fully built 2J has. There's a reason why a 3S race engine was put inside the Super GT Castrol TOM'S Supra.
I don't like the integrated exhaust manifold from the B58 because it killed way too much flow for a restriction. Honda did it better with their K20C family of engines. 4Piston tested the single vs 4-port with minimal flow loss (~10%) from the integrated manifold, and porting one made it flow even better than the K20A. Papadakis said in an HPA interview that switching to the 6-port unlocked more than 300hp at high revs. With such a small aperture and poor geometry, it suffers at making it sing at >7k rpm.
Toyota could have made an inline 6 based on the G16E-GTS platform, but they didn't. They have a marginally better combustion design, on a much more trusted package. I'd trust the VVTi-W albeit the dual injection being a potential liability from Toyota more than BMW's Valvetronic and plastic components, and the rear timing chain layout.
@@rickcupola6262 Well said, I fully agree with everything. The 2 port head is a lost potential. About the power, most BMW I6 engines, are capable of handling 600hp (with forged, low compression pistons) and engines like the N54 are proven to handle more than 1000hp, which is more than enough for everyone, but when it comes to drivability, you won't run slicks (mainly because its illegal) in order to put that power down, so there is no reason to do it on a road car. For me, running semi-slicks which are road legal, 400-450hp is enough for a car that weighs 1400kg to have some serious fun in it.
i dot get it either. bmw had heritage in inline 6 before toyota copied european brands
Being able to easily refresh the timing belt will always make the older engines kings
the revised b58 moved the timing chain to the front of the engine
I've really enjoyed this video. I'm a big fan of the JZ-family (owned multiple 1JZ sedans and have a project-car MkIV Supra). I think the B58 is the "2J for the 21st century" and will prove to be an amazing platform in the long run. I really like the reduced weight of an aluminum engine and air-water intercooler integration. Where I live in Japan, I don't think any shop is building or tuning B58s. I'm not a car mechanic or mechanical engineer by trade. If I wanted to get started on building & selling mild (~500-600hp) built B58s to the local community, where would I start, in terms of training resources, and what equipment do I need to purchase?
500-600 on a b58 is just a downpipe and a tune, no building required
Go visit the big tuning shops that do this over there so you get an idea. The power levels you speak of can be achieved with mild tunes so the first thing you should do is learning how to tune and what equipment you'll need to get it done properly + marketing. You need to make a name for yourself and that takes time and/or the right customers to get the word out. You'll need a few of those engines to dismantle, work on, study and tune effectively + testing, data logging to make sure your tuning is sound and produces reliable results. Papadakis reckons the internals are fine for ~1000hp stock so your 5 - 600 goal is ez pz. Decide whether you want to learn to tune factory ecu's or do engine swaps with standalone ecu's. Get a development car according to your choice. Work your ass off. Before all that, dig deep to be sure nobody else is doing it and whether you can create a demand for it. There are so many online tuning options nowadays that one can probably order an obd2 interface and generic tune for that power for like 500 bucks. You could start by offering to get that done for people and learn to look up the factory maps to compare to online tune maps (try a few if there are multiple such services) then learn to customize and optimize those maps for specific mods that might be added like cold air intakes and exhausts, downpipes etc... Good luck.
Actually, the motor Papadakis put together for ~1000hp on stock internals may have been a S58 instead of a B58 but the B is still probably able to easily handle 600hp+, just looking at how it's put together and the quality of the parts.
The B58 wouldn't take much to get to 500-600. A tune alone would get you to 500.
Would love to see a breakdown of the S58 engine in the M3/M4
Once again Jay blessing the masses with his knowledge and technical breakdown....💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💯P.S. when's the next open house at real street...I need to hear some cars rip on the Dyno... It's been too long😂😂😂😂😂😂
God bless this man and this channel, WE need more educational content like this
I think you should have mentioned the difference in weight, fuel economy and driveability. The 2jz weighs 50% (139 vs 205ish kg) more and probably uses 50% more fuel, takes twice as long to get up to temp and takes a lot longer to spool a turbo.
One engine is great for racing >1000hp and the other is perfect for daily driving a 600+hp car. If 650ftlbs on a stock bottom end doesn't make you happy maybe you should get an actual performance engine (s58) anyways?
S58 still doesn't stack up in stoutness. And this video wasn't about performance vs performance if you listened Jay was just showing break down and measurement but hey when a bmw motor is capable of holding 2500 plus HP let us know.
@@hatch450sx3You know absolutely nothing about the s58 if you believe it doesn't hold up.
@@LegendYT91 okay. Show me one s58 in the 6s
@@hatch450sx3 You're comparing a motor that has been exploited to crank out every ounce of power by the tuning/enthusiast community for 20+ years versus one that's been out for... 3 years? S58s are making 1000+ HP on a stock motor with DPs, a tune, and hybrid turbos -- and already running 9.00 1/4 mile times. Can't imagine where the S58 platform will be with the same amount of time and part development behind it but I'm sure it'll be handing out L's left and right.
Or you can stick with the 2j since they have been proven to hit 1800+whp on stock block.
The only two exhaust ports in a six-cylinder cylinder head, Typically an engineer's design. Super video 👍🏻
Would the s58 not be a better comparison?
I am honestly going to send this video to my friends because I learned so much about much each part of an engine works like that it is an incredible video love it❤❤❤
I’d be more interested to see s58 vs 2jz comparison. Just to see how the best current BMW inline 6 compares.
Same
Fantastic video. The few questions I didn't see answered are: 1) tuning HP likelihood for the aluminum-block BMW? Does modernity make up for the less-strong metal? 2) heads are both aluminum? 3) difficulty of adjusting both cams? 4) power actually saved by the vaned pump? 5) curious why the smaller bore and longer stroke of the BMW? 6) do both have interference should the belt/chain break? 7) difference in weight between the blocks vs. difference in weight fully dressed?
I know but two of these questions, longer stroke because BMW wanted higher compression while maintaining 3.0 displacement. So subtract from bore and increase stroke, also B58 Is interference, 2jz is not
Another phenomenal and in-depth technical video by Jay....one of the (if not thee) number 1 people that have taken the 2j to where it is all while explaining it in layman terms. Great work as always Jay.
Don’t forget, that the B58 block was designed to be a Diesel engine. Hence the high compression.
That’s why you can run these crazy powers on the stock block
bingo i work at cummins and the compression of a 3.0 diesel standard block can hold up to 1500 lb tq for 4 hours constant the b58 is perfect cradle why the s58 is even better with forged internals just rebuild top end ( intake and turbos better fuel mix) and u have a supercar. 150k of daily beating is crazy if u drive them as transpo 400k is easily attainable with 5 to 6 k oil changes not 8 to 10k
it looks like and m57 on the bottom rods crank
@@terrencemcphail5782 what is a lb tq?
it wasn't designed to be diesel engine.. its was designed to be modular engine (3,4,6 cyl, same parts for piston, rods, head)
compression ratio has nothing to do with block design. VW runs even higher CR in their engines, and smaller bores. Why you can run crazy power on stock block has to do with material thickness, cad/cae of block flex, good engineering of fasteners, gasket, piston and rods. Also not saving up on parts and castings.(like in past)... VW has to be looked up/thanked for quality of casting and processes and their improvement in German automotive industry (e.g. 07K, 07L/BUJ, EA113/EA888)
The 90s stuff is just Brollock. r&d testing was not as vast as today so engineers went nuts and had bean counters in a choke hold. awesome video!!
I think watching those oil pumps come apart tells a lot about these 2 engines and the differences they have. One has 3 parts the other has 30+.
One is sports oriented performance the other is a passenger car 6 cylinder.
@@moneyshifters its really the S58 that should be compared with 2JZ, not the B58. 2JZ were an expensive engine going into a relative expensive car. that said stock and tuned the B58 is better in just every way possible to the 2JZ except for 700hp+
I think 2JZ doesn't need to prove how reliable and how great engine. Just a magnificent engineering work.
The oil pump on the BMW engine is a vacuum pump and oil pump. The side with multiple vanes is for oil. The side with 2 vanes is vacuum for brake assist. (MINI master tech)
You are totally right. It is very important not to give wrong information to the people. Some of BMW engines have a scavenging pump, but B58 doesn't have it.
Hope you can get your hands on ford Barra engine and do a comparison as it’s a potent inline 6cyl ,love the comparison on the 2jz and b58 !!!
News flash it's been done it's average why do you Barra clowns always comment on jz videos oh the Barra..run along your Barra shit sounding thing is not even in the same world as the jz and lots others.aust bogans and there' dreams.
I'm an N54 owner and am happy to see the B58 learn from the gremlins that I have had to deal with. From what I've seen it will be the next powerplant in my next car I own for sure.
Yep, as an N54 owner myself I will be stepping up to the 340 soon. I love the n54 but man it sure does test my patience. Still a beast, and I love that car. The 2J is a great engine, but good luck finding one.
Just dont overheat your spark plugs and damage your cylinder head🤣
My dream car currently is a 335 with n54 hope to find one in good condition
@@DeezNuds they are great when they are working properly, have you considered the n55 powerplant? I feel like if I had the knowledge now that I did when I got my 335i it would have been with an n55 since I am not really looking to pump more than 400hp and would want the reliability
Would like to see a follow up comparison of the B58 and S58.
This proves how great the new engine is. I love my 2j but the technical advantage the b58 has in my opinion if you want 1000whp daily torque streetable amazing response b58 more than that 1000-1800hp monster 2j unless they do billet b58 blocks then you’ll never need a 2j. All the cool tech I wish was in my 2j come standard in the b58
There are built B58s out there already touching 13-1500hp(2 of the 3 fastest in the world making that power). I'd say billet maybe a option once they start touching 17-2khp maybe but they say it still has room for power with the built B58s still so the future is pretty bright in seeing how far they can be pushed.
But all the cool tech will fail after some time. I appreciate the simplicity of 2jz, strong and simple.
Def not. Id rip that BMW b58 out the MK5 and put in a 2JZ!. It's far more reliable! I trust Toyota so much more than I trust BMW..
So I'm going to debunk that right here. The b58 will never be able to make the power levels a 2jz can make simply because the 2jz flows air much better than the b58. The 2jz has bigger intake and exhaust ports, bigger valves and had a 6 port exhaust head. Air is the key to power. The more air you can flow, the more power you make.
I really don't understand your logic
What an awesome video! Not sure If you've done others like this if not moreeeeeee! Such a good watch
I don’t get how people are turning this into such a debate lol. Either engine gets great power with the money put into it. I do think many people think that the 2J pushes 1500whp completely stock lol. Like it’s not in god mode right off the bat.
No but a head gasket upgrade alone the 2jz can hold 1000hp which makes it one of like 4 motors period to be able to do that
A used 2JZ-GTE and a used B58 cost about the same which makes me laugh a little. I appreciate that people like Real Street and Papadakis Racing are developing the B58 for high HP applications vs being intimidated by new technology
The first Gen B58’s had a 6 port outlet for the manifold didn’t they? Great video by the way. It’s nice to see another such detailed tear down and comparison to the 2JZ. Both fantastic engines.
Which cars had the 1st gen?
@@carloscrod_All F chassis B58s
the valvetronik is also good to avoid turbolag, because the boostpressure is always directly up to the valves and doesn't need to travel from the throttlebody up to the valves. sure that isn't a problem on the dragstrip, but when running on and normal track it gives you instant power so it feels more like an natrually aspiratet engine and not like an turbocharged engine
@@YoumomisBeautiful72k miles on my M240i, no issues. I know people with many more miles and have no issues. The N52 definitely had teething issues, but the system has largely been refined since its introduction 2 decades ago. And every Valvetronic motor has a throttle body as a backup in case the Valvetronic goes bad, the valves lock to full lift and the engine will run on the throttle body until its repaired.
@@porschelover0472k miles is a new car still 😂 200k miles is the ultimate bench mark
@@repingers9777 Ehh, they're definitely not an old car by 70k, but they're showing some age. Call it the mid-life crisis range 😂
@@YoumomisBeautiful engines at bmw get designed to hold atleast 300,000km (186,000 miles) only with maintainance, the cars they use as long term testers dont have problems 🤷♂️ nearly every bmw in germany has no problems, as long as you maintain them properly they hold up
@@YoumomisBeautifuloh no! my $50 solenoid that is easy to replace because it’s just on the backside of the engine!
Thanks for the video....
Can you make a video comparison between B58 and Barra Engine???
My humble opinion.
B58 is the new King. Why:
1. B58 can handle more power reliably, than a 2JZ. A 2JZ block can handle upwards of 800hp BUT it’s internals can’t handle that reliably. It’s good for about 600hp before a rebuild and upgrade are needed. A B58 can handle just as much, if not more, without needing to be rebuilt/upgraded.
2. It’s very expensive to build a 2JZ. People don’t talk about this that often. They just say “Check out this 1000whp+ Supra!”, and leave out that it cost upwards of $100k to get it there reliably. To get a B58 to 1000whp reliably costs a lot less.
3. Drivability of a modded B58 is a lot, and I mean A LOT smoother than a modded 2JZ. Boost threshold is a lot less on the B58 vs the 2JZ. B58 fuel economy is a lot better.
4. Sound is subjective. I personally like the sound of the B58 more than the 2JZ. But I do have to give it to the 2JZ, because without it, I don’t think manufactures today would be focusing as much on the sound.
I wonder how the new Mercedes-Benz M256 engine would do against B58
3L inline six, stock 435hp
correct, my favorite part is when people leave out the cost. A stock turbo b58 is making 500hp with just a downpipe and tune prob with a bit of a E blend which is insane! Switching from Comfort and Sport and feeling the difference is night and day for comfortability and gas mileage (lol). Being able to make power and comfortably and to easily adjust maps from your phone while getting groceries on stock ecu is a blessing too. I'm a huge 2jz fan too but the Toyota fanboyism needs to chill and give credit where its due. Lol also putting a single exit gives it the 2jz sound ironically
Fantastic video, please turn this into an engine comparisons series! There are hundreds of motors to compare between
My thoughts exactly... As a long life Supra owner, I remember wanting a 2jz back when I was boosting my mk3 Supra. And now today I own 5 2jz engine's. Supra and 4 Lexus Gs300's. I wouldn't trade my jz block for anything out there today. Just an amazing easy to mod engine with less stress.🏁🏁🏁⭐😎
Thank you Jay for this awesome comparison! I'm sure we all know who the winner is here... no shit...
great comparison, since the b58 has a smaller bore diameter and longer stroke than the 2j, would that also mean at stock bore/stroke the 2j would be more safe to rev higher?
I would think so.
Yes you are right and also rod ratio which he didn't cover but is vital for reducing the piston velocity when increasing rpm
@@burdazza2711 Jay did say the B58 has a longer rod, but it would be nice to know the exact ratio. Papadakis rev their B58 to 9k in FD, so it's not like it can't rev. Unfortunately modern fuel economy standards will not allow oversquare engine configurations, in mainstream engines anyway...
@@sergeyakinin997 Their engines aren't holding up, though.
Piston speed is a concern. Yet, the B58 appears to have done away with a lot of reciprocating and rotating mass while maintaining a longer stroke.
such a cool video, thank you! after seeing the 2J it makes me feel good about my built S52 in how similar it is
Occam's razor theory - "the simplest solution is always the correct solution". 2JZ Team! 💪🏽 As always, great video!!
Can you do a Honda K20 engine vs Mitsubishi 4B11T video
I've always thought the 4b is the k series for mitsubishi. Just like how the b series and 4g.
Modern technology vs the old tried & true engine that's built like a battleship: the mighty 2JZ.
The mighty 2JZ, barely any better than mercedes M103 that was made in the early 80s
About time someone made this video!
Spray in liners is the end of the conversation
BMW did not create this engine for drag racing. That's the end of the conversation.
@@sepg5084drag racing? Toyota did it for reliability. Supras are not built for drag racing. They just found out that its strong for drag racing
@sepg5084 you goose 🪿 😂😂
Why?
@@Sunburnae92If you want to go racing 1000+hp and you pick the b58, an engine designed for lightweight, driveability and economy over the S58, a literal homologation race engine, that is all we need to know about you.
And don't blame BMW for Toyota putting the non-perforance engine in the Supra. I feel like you guys would still blame BMW engines for not making 1400hp had it come with their 3 cylinder.
Thank you so much for this kind of videos, a lot of insights and special Jay vibe FTW. Cheers from Russia
I hate the the cam gears and timing system on the backside of the engine would be a pain to work on on the B58 and all the plastic parts suck too at the end of the day it’s still a European engine so if there’s no oil underneath then there ain’t no oil in it 😅
"if a jz doesnt leak oil it doesnt run"
Sadly, this is true. Coming from someone that had multiple 90's and early 2000 BMW's. Oil was the lease of the worries that i encountered. But when they ran it was BEAUTIFUL! Tick Toc!!!
@@slezyorla eh? there's the cam seals, (possible vvti gear), valve cover, crank seal and rear main - it's relatively easy to sort the leaks on a JZ.
You're thinking of some other engine
@@Sam-go3mb im an internet mechanic i donk know shit about this. i quoted jimmy oakes back from when he had his white supra
@@slezyorla fair. sounds like he couldn't be assed sorting out all his seals 😅 so he changed it to 'the leaks give the car character' 😂
can we please get 2jz vs s58 and call it a day . but every time i watch a Jay video, i swear i become smarter . Jay was the right person to explain the differences to us
Good to hear it from the pros. B58 is one impressive engine.
One thing i think alot of people forget, we arnt all trying to make 1500 hp. 99% of people the B58 is FAR superior. It make power more easily and cheaply, its more drivable, it gets better gas mileage has way more torque, and way less lag and makes more HP stock. I know people are gonna get mad, but its ok, the B58 is over 20 years newer and one of the most advanced engines in the world. All that time went in to making the best engine for most people (Yes even for 700-800whp). If you want to make 1500 hp, 2j is king
We can make reliably 1500hp in BMW S58 with help of some turbos, upgraded injection system, new camshaft and stroking, it's quite undersquared. B58/S58 block is derived from bmw diesel block. In Germany, some lunatics are closing in, but we still have pump gas with 102 Ron
2J ftw
Do a direct comparison of an S38B38, the 6 cylinder TFNTF franchise didnt tell you about.
The b58 has smaller bores, smaller combustion chamber, smaller valves and a longer stroke. No thanks.
Way more complexity too. Did you see that oil pump?! Looks like a Swiss watch.
Weight is king in a sports car, especially if it’s front engined, as Colin Chapman said power will make you faster in the straights, lightness will make you faster everywhere...
I would love to see you guys throw in the Ford Barra and compare all three engines. 👍
Barra junk ?
Barra is king for the power and money spent.
@@sammy-ko6bs2500hp with stock block and head is junk?
I hope this becomes a series this is incredible
Fantastic vid! Ever since BMW introduced the N54, N55, B58 and their M variants, have always wondered how they compare to the legendary 2JZ.
Man when he disassembled that oil pump imagine how many parts the can wear on that
This was great! Thank you so much for this - its really appreciated!
Sorry to have to spell it out...FORD BARRA SIX ...Rated by some of the best engine builders as the best...!!! try pro mod class 2700 hp running sub 7s
If it's complicated, it's BMW. Simple as that.
Can you please rig a camera setup inside the crank?
Close up oil pan and have it mounted inside for a few runs.
Led light
Well from my opinion based on this video let the small war between B58 vs 2JZ finally come to a end. Both are great engines, with a bright future for the B58 to become the true successor to the 2JZ engine.
I think only Toyota can produce a true successor to the 2jz
@Tax_Mny Only with the help of Yamaha, of course. Theyre the Genius behind Toyota's Best motors ever built.
This is a long running misconception. Yamaha co-designed the head on the 1jz and had NOTHING to do with the design of the 2jz
@@Tax_Mnywould cost billions. Hence why they co developed the mk5.
@@nationalsearchinc.4769 thank you! So many people bring up Yamaha when talking about the 2JZ.... The 2JZ was not co-developed with Yamaha.
I’m so tired of all the troll comments saying the MK5 is a BMW or ugly or not reliable or a zupra or Z4, if you don’t like the car move on and buy what you enjoy. To me the Supra now owning a manual Transmission is a fantastic platform and I literally have no bias. I’ve owned over 50 cars personally and just about everything shy of HyperCars. If you want to make some damn good power reliably and have a unique platform that breaks necks and eats up the track and roll races this is a great platform. I personally wouldn’t own an automatic but as soon as Toyota designed a MT for the car I was all in. It’s one of the best MT gearboxes I’ve ever experienced super tight, notchy and no play at all. It’s like driving a video game every day I personally love this car and that I have 1 of 1236 MT made and the rarity of this car driving around town. I like nostalgia and having cars you don’t see every day like BMW’s, Corvettes, mustangs, etc this car will be a limited production and carry a name for itself as the pinnacle of BMW and Toyotas legacy’s together as incredible designers. They hands down make some of the most recognized sports cars in the history of car manufacturing I don’t think you could ask for a better combination of engineers to have your back creating the next and final Toyota Supra I know they did my Manual Supra right I have no complaints other than visibility and space, but you don’t buy this car for those needs you own another one and drive this on the weekends and keep it nice and don’t sell it ever! It’s one hell of a car I’ll tell you that and a bucket list checked of this is literally a dream car to me and I own one and couldn’t be more satisfied they did it right. Even insane MPG out of a performance car and MT gearbox. Thank you Toyota, thank you BMW for bringing us this masterpiece. 🙏
So overall from what I gather is the B58 is a great engine but the 2jz still have a bit of the upper hand from a performance stand point.
Iron block vs spray in liner
Less moving parts in the oil pump
6 port exhaust
Bigger valve/combustion chamber area.
Yes, but BMW has the S58, an actual worthy competitor, and the 2jz is so heavy it could be compared to the S63 V8.
What is the point of an I6 as heavy as a twin turbo V8 using as much fuel as a V8?
@laurean5998 i do agree that it's heavy but that is because it's an iron block and that definitely helps when thinking about the integrity of the block for holding MASSIVE amount of horsepower. Because of it heavy construction no additional sleeving in the cylinders is needed , add some billet main caps and that block is good for upwards of 1600hp, show me another lightweight production block that can do that without sleeves or other cylinder support.
@@CmoneyGarage an ls1 iron block
Only the 2020 supra has 2 ports, 2021+ Supras have six port head, 10:2:1 compression and makes more power.
@laurean5998 Clearly you work for BMW, you seen on EVERY post saying the same thing over and over and over!!!
Fun fact Toyota helped or co- developed the B58 engine, doing reliability testing , checking every nut,bolt & screw , even sending BMW back to fix things where necessary, just to ensure that its up to Toyota quality standard. So its not like a donation or toyota riding bmw tech. Infact one could argue BMW benefitted more, learning reliability from toyota, what did Toyota gain that could already make sports cars. Toyota also co-developed the chassis with BMW to get that near perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The Supra/z4 is essentially different cars created independently using a shared Lego set with no collaboration beyond parts development. Basically they Could created the parts, but made the cars separate as German anti trust laws prevent that. So they made the beat ( chassis engine) together, but wrote their Rhymes separate and alone. When BMW approached upon seeingb the sucess of the BRZ/86 that's what had in mind. Based on chassis tuning & handling, many ppl say Toyota made the better BMW as the Supra is widely preferred to the Z4.
The Z4 is different enough to separate the intended customers, Z4 owners to likely be older and weather with no desire to track the car - more like LC500 customers. Those cars are grand touring cars that still look great, but not exciting.
2JZ was a must when it came out but years passes and technology improves... i bet that B58 will definitely take the 2JZ place
Compromising your B58 cylinder head because of a spark plug overheating is something that will not replace an engine that doesn’t come close to having thay issue.
Awesome video. The engines kept switching sides. Would be nice if the 2JZ was always on your right or out our right. Or vise versa.
JZ for life 🫡
🚮
@@tmc8516salty
Yes 💪🏾💯💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
Hova
Unpopular opinion but the B58 is a much better engine
What about the Block bore on the B58? Are there oversized liners and pistons to replace the electro coated liner on the stock bore?
Insightful Jay, thanks! Toyota's 2JZ will always be the greatest inline 6 cylinder engine ever made 🥰
Compare these engines to the barra 4.0 inline 6 next, that thing is a juggernaut compared to these 2. B58 - 350lbs, 2jz- 440lbs, barra 4.0 - 525 lbs, 1 extra litre of displacement and is much taller than the other engines aswell.
The barra is an amazing engine.
@@skyu777ayala2😂
I’ve been waiting for this. I feel the b58 is awesome even though I hav a 2j. Dual vvti is the biggest thing I wish the 2j had you can make great power and with aluminum block you shave weight. B58 is the future but also codeveloped with Toyota so lessons learned were passed to b58 from the jz. If your doing a swap or build b58 with direct injection just add a secondary rail with 2000 cc injectors your good well into 1500hp
b58 was out long before toyota came to bmw for the new supra, probably threw in a couple of ideas but it was all marketing talk by toyota to keep the fanboys happy
B58 have nothing from toyota, b48 for example that is same thing is out since 2014, b48 or b58 are both big future engines, both developed by bmw
Who lied to you about the B58 being co developed with Toyota? Was it the same guy that said the fake vents can be made functional if you just cut into the structural support of the car?
@thesulo12 says thefanboy12yrold 🤣
Even if you could afford a 2jz you'd get boat raced by a b58 on any track.
I picked up a 98Aristo v3 while I was in Japan. Trying to get more experience and QT with my pops. I was thinking a B58 but thought it would be different bringing JDM to the states because it’s not common seeing 2jz gte. He’s also 6’7 so my options were slim considering I’d like him to drive with me. So I couldn’t get an rx7 or s14. And this video helps me understand that the 2jz is friendlier on me as a beginner 😂
No need for a war here, they’re both great engines. Yes, the BMW is more complicated, but that’s what technological advancement looks like. I say if you want the most efficient and responsive street engine, the BMW motor walks all over the 2J. But the 2J is more of a known quantity for high hp builds and lots of Indy techs can work on them.
We just need Jay to start building the Beemer engines now. “B58” Jay it shall be! 😅
What about vacuum pump that fix on the back of the cam not been mentioned
I think bmw have the right idea but the extra complication and moving parts and sheer amount of electronics and things that can go wrong is immense. If you’re on a drag week and your b58 breaks it won’t be an easy simple fix or cheap. 2j is still king followed closely by a Barra
The barra isn't close. I was telling BMW fanboys from the start their alloy block will never compete with a 2j because it won't. The barras have a weaker casting similar to Rb26 and have horribly thin bores too. The next cast block I6 would be the RD28/ Rb30.
@@lennixsingh626 just bore and sleeve the cast block ☺️.
@@zethloveless7238 Then ur next problem would be thin spots on the block.
@@lennixsingh626 that’s fine but I don’t think we have seen the real limits yet. Jz block also has its limits but comparing cast aluminum block in a sports car to a boat anchor iron block is a big weird. Both are great engines. When people make block limiting power they all switch to billet blocks anyhow.
@@zethloveless7238 We already found the limits of cast barras. Theres people who have pushed them to 2000hp but they never last over 1500hp for long, the bores and block don't last. The JZ long block is also extremely light. Its just heavy in factory form with the the twin turbos and all the useless gear in place. 2j's can hold around 70-80psi before they start splitting the deck and ballooning the 7mm Siamese bores. I will say tho, pushing anything over 1400 in any inline 6 should be the right time to go to a billet block for longevity.
So basically, the 2JZ was way ahead of its time and is still badass, and the B58 has some flaws, but they're relatively minor and it's about as good of a performance oriented engine as you can get in this day and age with emissions controls and the neverending quest for moar powah!
20 years apart, and still taking the germans to school... No BMW engine will ever last as long as a Toyota engine... The built in reserve and tunability in the JZ lines is just mind boggling... Almost as if they went and decided - we gonna build te 1JZ and 2JZ engines as Easter Eggs with different layers for curious explorers to unfold... Man alive, have they cracked that!
I just enjoy every second of your video
2jz always no question sorry reliable and simple better
2JZ is old and less efficient and heavier
This is a valuable and a very informative video. Thank you for sharing!