My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;) Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT.... The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc. It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out. Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
There are better European options, theres no need to import old USA engines. (Unless local scrapyard has a decent core, which is really rare.) Ontop of that, taxes and tariffs for USA made engines and parts kill every viability of the engines. Use this engine, take these parts are mainly for those who cant make power from any engine, and only succeed on following someone elses project or recommendations. You can get power out of anything, just throw a different cam and forged pistons, injectors in it, boost it and tune - it'll make power.
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though. Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks. Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher. So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately. One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years. All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing. 2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of. This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense" They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply. Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300. You have my attention, sir. I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic. Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either. Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
As time goes on aftermarket support for the 2JZ will become more and more niche and high priced. You see this happening with the B18C/C1/C5 and B16A/A1/A2/b etc. The H/F series has had a bit of a revival probably because of what’s happening to the B series and since very few people ever took that platform seriously there are still engines out there and the price vs B series shows that. My point though is that it doesn’t matter how good the engine is and how much support it has. Eventually if it’s that good of an engine people will run out of engines. I mean you’ve got Supras that have gone through multiple blocks. What do you expect the future is going to hold for that system. Interesting video
So, pretty much my entire channel is based on Gen 3 Hemi content, but I finally cannot resist and I'm picking up one of these engines on Friday 😄. No idea what it'll be for yet, but i can guarantee you it'll be turbocharged. Great work my man, appreciate your dedication to this platform. 👍
I'm really glad you covered this engine. I'm actually considering it for a swap because of this video. I just have one major criticism of the video. When comparing cast grey iron and aluminum you only mention tensile strength and hardness. I believe other factors are more important. 1. The amount that it stretches before breaking is a whole lot more important, and aluminum is stretchy. 2. Aluminum also fatigues differently. Aluminum slowly gets weaker over time whereas iron wouldn't weaken until you overstress it. This is why springs are never made from aluminum. 3. It also expands more when it heats up, which could mean more internal stress with the quick, uneven heating seen in engines, which would mean more fatigue given a design that doesn't compensate for that. I'm sure the engineers compensate for this one but it's still a concern. There are A LOT of factors other than hardness and tensile strength when you're looking at the longevity of a material under such high stress. Design is of course always the most important thing, and I'm sure this is a great engine, but similar material strength shouldn't have been such a primary focus of the video when aluminum is an inherently more challenging material for this application. Aluminum is actually better in a couple ways like heat dissipation and strength-to-weight ratio, but it is still a tradeoff. Edit: I watched the outro after writing this so forgive me for covering things you were aware of in layman's terms 😂. For background, I'm on a prestigious college's robotics team, and those guys consider me the materials nerd a lot of the time. I'm not a material scientist, I'm a mechanical engineering student.
Yeah. The Coyotes are holding 3000whp with a stock aluminum block, when the LS with iron aftermarket blocks cannot. There is something that is at play here that is not easily explained. What it comes down to is someone has to try and see.
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength. Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic. Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
Crank mains and oiling effeciency are what make a bulletproof platform. Timing chains/belts are debatable but we all know deep down chains are better, and shorter chains are even better.
2JZ can never be replicated or replaced. With this day n age it still stands at the top but not for long as everything else is catching up so that shows how far ahead of time the design is
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder ..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged ..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
if size is an issue i would go with 2.9l Volvo straight six white block, found in S80s and XC90 from the early 2000s. Twin turbo from the factory and they can make about 600 horsepower on stock internals . You can find them everywhere because they are front wheel drive straight six that cae with a garbage GM 4 speed (the only thing that would fit)
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!! One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
Even if there are higher UTS alluminium alloys than some cast iron alloys, per a given geometry (lets say the wall between cylinders), cast iron is always stiffer. This means that for a given force it will deform less, hence has less chance of reducing clearance between moving parts (lets say crankshaft and block). Material and design always work hand in hand, and the stiffer the block, the more torque, cylinder pressure and RPM will safely support
Hey Calvin, first off thank you for posting so much information on these motors. I have a video idea that I think would be helpful to me and others. Not sure how doable it is, but a video of how to reach different levels of horsepower 400, 450, 500.. ect and the list of mods and estimated cost breakdown? I stole the this format idea from shmeidia and what he does for the wrx sti. I’m currently in the process of looking through local junkyards to find a suitable 4200 and trans for my old g body. Thanks again.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
Looks to be a nice engine, have you looked at the aussie made ford barra xr6t engine, i put in my mustang, stock block and head with a huge turbo pushing 30 psi safely ,the engine is insane, this engine might be a good swap for my g8/ve wagon
Dude 10 years ago you could pick up a two 2j for like 500 bucks it’s not like that anymore i’m sure these motors are really cheap because they were in a bunch of SUVs and they’re not sought after they came with a 4L 60 meaning that you wouldn’t have to even use any kind of adapters to mount a tremic on I can’t see this being the next thing that people start swapping into Miatas and S14s
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
Man respect I think any good straight 6 that is well built and has reliable traits for sure deserves to be looked in to and studied and brought back to life
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now. About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
I remember looking into building the ford 4.9 and the jeep 4.0, because, you know...inline 6 turbo reasons...and what always seemed to come up was that the stroke was too long. Not to mention that cylinder head tech in those engines even with wildly altered one-off builds was poor at best. So, biggest question I have is: what transmissions bolt up to this thing? Im guessing it comes with a 4L60, can you get away with a 4L80, or a T56? Or, it would be tantalizing to use an adapter for a Nissan CD009 to LS if the basic idea is that whatever bolts to an LS will bolt to these. Glad you mentioned the rear sump aftearket pans, because I would love to try one of these as a drift car engine. Hopefully they have better oil priority than a LS.
Since you have both, how do the compare dimensionally? Weight? Are these longer than the already long 2JZ? Taller? My main issue that I've seen with putting bigger I6s in cars that came with smaller ones is that they don't fit well because they're super long and tall. Materials wise yield strength is more important than ultimate strength here. Iron also has a endurance limit which aluminum does not. This is one of the reasons you don't see aluminum rods used outside of applications where they rebuild frequently even though it's possible to get a better strength to weight ratio.
Great information as always Calvin. I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
Will a 4.2 atlas fit in a square body s10 early 90s, or would it be better fit for the 5 cylinder? Really wanting to build a typhoon type blaser and really don't want to use a 4.3. My other pick would be a 3800. Thanks for any advice.
Also flat tappet buckets don't allow some aggressive cam profiles you can get from roller followers. Some manufacturers have made curved top valve buckets that allow more aggressive cam profiles but the 2jz hasn't done that yet everything available is flat top buckets.
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on. These engines have massive potential. Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
It most definitely is a contributing factor When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
I wonder would it be beneficial to use a head spacer to lower the compression and maximize the stock bottom end power potential? For people on a budget or who are limited to pump gas. I would also love to see how a 4200 with a centrifugal supercharger would do.
Why didn’t they add cam phasing to both the intake and exhaust cams? Other engines at the time of the vortec 4200 already had both cams and make similar power with less displacement.
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
Nice detailed, data driven analysis! As an Aerospace Engr and Materials Scientist your comments are spot on. One comment regarding longevity of AL vs FE blocks - the FE ductility characteristics help in long term longevity as well as dampening of any resonances/harmonics generated during High RPM runs …. But the newer design of the GM block - squeeze cast - is ultimately superior ( Looking for a GM Engin Engr to weigh in here HaHa :) Keep it up!!!
Saying "aluminum block" is like saying "Black Shoe" there are more factors than just material like you said in the video. "My Buddy" only considers the material. "My Buddy" is a menace!
Been wanting to mess with one of these for ages. Hadn't dug as deep as you have obviously, but they always looked pretty impressive. I think the aftermarket will keep expanding. I don't think it will ever be as extensive as for the 2JZ, but it also doesn't need to be. Really a bummer GM didn't keep making these. With the I6 getting more popular again, I wonder if they will bring back an updated version.
Calvin, I have seen you put these engines in race cars. Do you think they would be a good fit to put in a hot shot truck that I use to pull trailers all over the country? Also, do you think they would last or have to be rebuilt a lot?
I thought the only weak point might be a lower melting point on aluminum making it easier to warp (Northstar anybody) But apparently the gray iron melts up. 1212° and this particular aluminum alloy melts at 1220°
You're leaving out a third measure known as "toughness"-- which is the inverse of "brittle". Materials can be very hard and increase their tensile strength, yet still be brittle and shatter easily. So there is a happy medium for the three. (hardness, toughness and tensile strength).
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
What about the difference with temperature? Doesn't aluminum have a lower melting point, so with heat, it will be closer to it's melting point than steel, and therefore much more weak/ soft. Can you test hardness at higher temperatures (maybe with torch or something)
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times. Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
Have you considered playing with an LV3 platform? Lighter and easier packaging. Aftermarket support for those is growing and some are getting pretty impressive numbers from them.
My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;)
Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
When you're done developing....send the head to us...we'll get drag results
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT....
The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc.
It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Same goes for the RB as the Aussie aftermarket is mental for the RB now.
@@StavTech lolwut? The 2JZ was already a tuning legend in the USA when the first F&F movie came out in 2001.
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out.
Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
@@Ricky-nq7lu RB got big long before the JZ. But they both keep getting better then now
I’m amazed nobody’s caught on to the 5cyl version of the same engine yet, as tuned 5cyls sound AWESOME!
4cylinder 2.9/2900 version is going into my Opel with a turbo and 4 neutral 4L60 lol
@@young11984 that will be very cool, good luck with it!
See 80's Audi Quattro
I imagined putting one in a C4 Corvette with a turbo and that idea just keep bouncing around my brain. I think it'd be a perfect vibe match
@@bobroberts2371
The Daza engine in my 2018 RS3 sounds sweet!
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
Woah! My e60 might need an upgrade! Let me know how that goes, good luck!
Where didi you find it ? I have seen none here in France ...
@@dot3xe local junkyard
@@Kingkurkela from wich car ? Do you know any model with high availability in europe ?
There are better European options, theres no need to import old USA engines. (Unless local scrapyard has a decent core, which is really rare.)
Ontop of that, taxes and tariffs for USA made engines and parts kill every viability of the engines.
Use this engine, take these parts are mainly for those who cant make power from any engine, and only succeed on following someone elses project or recommendations.
You can get power out of anything, just throw a different cam and forged pistons, injectors in it, boost it and tune - it'll make power.
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
That's certainly not one of their greatest blunders.
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
Said the same in 80s with the r code olds 350 would been an awesome truck v8
They went direct injection
As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though.
Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks.
Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher.
So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately.
One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years.
All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing.
2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of.
This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense"
They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
please don't post this publicly. if you enjoy a budget build, don't tempt the clout chasers
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply.
Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I’m at 189k miles and my trailblazer still pulls very hard and i still smoke people all the time 😂
I can just feel the hoarders cleaning them of of the junkyards and driving up the prices
Next thing ya know they’ll be in ever build at SEMA lol
if you need 4200 let me know I can get it for you and good price. Im located Levittown p.a @Calvin-Nelson
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300.
You have my attention, sir.
I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic.
Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either.
Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
Thanks for the rep' Calvin 😊. Haters will always hate, just like all the SBC guys hated on the LS when it came out in 1997 😂
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
We have a few on our website and they're on sale. Hopefully that makes it a bit easier. www.paccracing.com/store/artec-vortec-4200-turbo-manifolds
I’m thankful Calvin is brining us much needed research on the 4200
As time goes on aftermarket support for the 2JZ will become more and more niche and high priced. You see this happening with the B18C/C1/C5 and B16A/A1/A2/b etc. The H/F series has had a bit of a revival probably because of what’s happening to the B series and since very few people ever took that platform seriously there are still engines out there and the price vs B series shows that.
My point though is that it doesn’t matter how good the engine is and how much support it has. Eventually if it’s that good of an engine people will run out of engines. I mean you’ve got Supras that have gone through multiple blocks. What do you expect the future is going to hold for that system.
Interesting video
This engine didn't get on Ward's 10 Best Engines four years in a row for no reason. It's the most underrated engine GM has ever made.
A ton of my family and friends worked at GM truck and bus building Blazers and TrailBlazers. The alcoholism and drug abuse there was off the charts!
That's probably true all over the planet.
@@Calvin-Nelson Wisdom good answer
So, pretty much my entire channel is based on Gen 3 Hemi content, but I finally cannot resist and I'm picking up one of these engines on Friday 😄. No idea what it'll be for yet, but i can guarantee you it'll be turbocharged. Great work my man, appreciate your dedication to this platform. 👍
appreciate this video, i asked if you could do a 2jz vs 4200 video and you came through, hell yeah
I'm really glad you covered this engine. I'm actually considering it for a swap because of this video. I just have one major criticism of the video.
When comparing cast grey iron and aluminum you only mention tensile strength and hardness. I believe other factors are more important.
1. The amount that it stretches before breaking is a whole lot more important, and aluminum is stretchy.
2. Aluminum also fatigues differently. Aluminum slowly gets weaker over time whereas iron wouldn't weaken until you overstress it. This is why springs are never made from aluminum.
3. It also expands more when it heats up, which could mean more internal stress with the quick, uneven heating seen in engines, which would mean more fatigue given a design that doesn't compensate for that. I'm sure the engineers compensate for this one but it's still a concern.
There are A LOT of factors other than hardness and tensile strength when you're looking at the longevity of a material under such high stress.
Design is of course always the most important thing, and I'm sure this is a great engine, but similar material strength shouldn't have been such a primary focus of the video when aluminum is an inherently more challenging material for this application.
Aluminum is actually better in a couple ways like heat dissipation and strength-to-weight ratio, but it is still a tradeoff.
Edit: I watched the outro after writing this so forgive me for covering things you were aware of in layman's terms 😂.
For background, I'm on a prestigious college's robotics team, and those guys consider me the materials nerd a lot of the time. I'm not a material scientist, I'm a mechanical engineering student.
Yeah. The Coyotes are holding 3000whp with a stock aluminum block, when the LS with iron aftermarket blocks cannot. There is something that is at play here that is not easily explained. What it comes down to is someone has to try and see.
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
Thank you! I found myself shouting at the tv, because my hands were full, when he was talking about strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength.
Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic.
Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
Brother, that is awesome!!! The 4200 is going to go a long way!!!
Crank mains and oiling effeciency are what make a bulletproof platform. Timing chains/belts are debatable but we all know deep down chains are better, and shorter chains are even better.
2JZ can never be replicated or replaced. With this day n age it still stands at the top but not for long as everything else is catching up so that shows how far ahead of time the design is
Could you test and see how much hp, psi of boost and rpm they can do before grenading?
th-cam.com/video/ZPjT17_BGgY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=eR0NzSQOLlql1gEY
Already done. Also ran one with rods only.
Thank you Calvin for sharing this information. And wishing you and family a Blessed Thanksgiving
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
"Or Wednesday, when they're finally over their hangover"
Solid comedy gold right there!
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder
..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged
..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
what about the physical dimensions? does that make these 4200s less of an option for a lot of cars if you want to keep a stock firewall?
if size is an issue i would go with 2.9l Volvo straight six white block, found in S80s and XC90 from the early 2000s.
Twin turbo from the factory and they can make about 600 horsepower on stock internals . You can find them everywhere because they are front wheel drive straight six that cae with a garbage GM 4 speed (the only thing that would fit)
I tink the volvo penta engines could be an option also
I really hope they are as reliable as you say, because they're a pain in the ass to work on.
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!!
One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
Even if there are higher UTS alluminium alloys than some cast iron alloys, per a given geometry (lets say the wall between cylinders), cast iron is always stiffer.
This means that for a given force it will deform less, hence has less chance of reducing clearance between moving parts (lets say crankshaft and block).
Material and design always work hand in hand, and the stiffer the block, the more torque, cylinder pressure and RPM will safely support
I appriciate this kinds of vids it give me new perspectives in enginge builds .
Hey Calvin, first off thank you for posting so much information on these motors. I have a video idea that I think would be helpful to me and others. Not sure how doable it is, but a video of how to reach different levels of horsepower 400, 450, 500.. ect and the list of mods and estimated cost breakdown?
I stole the this format idea from shmeidia and what he does for the wrx sti.
I’m currently in the process of looking through local junkyards to find a suitable 4200 and trans for my old g body.
Thanks again.
I actually already did that. Just isn't a video.
sites.google.com/view/vortec4200wiki/power-matrix?authuser=0
@@Calvin-Nelson you’re the man.
Thank you, hope everything is going well.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
2 questions? Could you get an 05 block and put the 06 head on it? Also, who and what is being used to tune these?
Yes. I like Maxxecu, but you can use a variety of ECUs.
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
Couldn't recommend this engine enough especially for wheeling.
Always learn something new in your videos. This one was really good
Looks to be a nice engine, have you looked at the aussie made ford barra xr6t engine, i put in my mustang, stock block and head with a huge turbo pushing 30 psi safely ,the engine is insane, this engine might be a good swap for my g8/ve wagon
I have. They look like another excellent choice.
@@Calvin-Nelson i just watched a vid you did on the barra
Yep the 4200 will never be the next 2JZ, simply Facts!
Built by gM it is built by junk ummm built or designed by idiots
Dude 10 years ago you could pick up a two 2j for like 500 bucks it’s not like that anymore i’m sure these motors are really cheap because they were in a bunch of SUVs and they’re not sought after they came with a 4L 60 meaning that you wouldn’t have to even use any kind of adapters to mount a tremic on I can’t see this being the next thing that people start swapping into Miatas and S14s
are the internals cast or forged? How bolt main? Does it have oil squirters down in each cylinder?
Thanks for valuable information bro, but the question is what is the best mods to make the best performance N/A engine?
Please advise 🙏
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
Man respect I think any good straight 6 that is well built and has reliable traits for sure deserves to be looked in to and studied and brought back to life
Man i am so happy you guys are letting people know, how great these engines are.
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now.
About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
Love this platform. Thanks, Calvin!
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
Dynamic torsional strength is a thing. But you made a very concise and thought provoking and clever vid really loved it..
Solid video. Well reasoned. Sounds like this platform could be a lot of fun.
Agree psi of materials is similar, but is the wall thickness 2x?
Great video instant subscribe glad to find another grass roots automotive channel
Thanks for educating me
I love all the info you share about these motors
I remember looking into building the ford 4.9 and the jeep 4.0, because, you know...inline 6 turbo reasons...and what always seemed to come up was that the stroke was too long. Not to mention that cylinder head tech in those engines even with wildly altered one-off builds was poor at best. So, biggest question I have is: what transmissions bolt up to this thing? Im guessing it comes with a 4L60, can you get away with a 4L80, or a T56? Or, it would be tantalizing to use an adapter for a Nissan CD009 to LS if the basic idea is that whatever bolts to an LS will bolt to these. Glad you mentioned the rear sump aftearket pans, because I would love to try one of these as a drift car engine. Hopefully they have better oil priority than a LS.
Would love to do a Vortec 4200 swap in 4.0 Jeeps. An inexpensive rear sump oil pan (stamped steel) would be great!
Since you have both, how do the compare dimensionally? Weight? Are these longer than the already long 2JZ? Taller? My main issue that I've seen with putting bigger I6s in cars that came with smaller ones is that they don't fit well because they're super long and tall. Materials wise yield strength is more important than ultimate strength here. Iron also has a endurance limit which aluminum does not. This is one of the reasons you don't see aluminum rods used outside of applications where they rebuild frequently even though it's possible to get a better strength to weight ratio.
Always great content, keep up the great work, love the father son vibe going on👍
Is 42004you still a thing? Would love to see more 4200 swaps into the 3.5/3.7 space
Great information as always Calvin.
I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
Will a 4.2 atlas fit in a square body s10 early 90s, or would it be better fit for the 5 cylinder?
Really wanting to build a typhoon type blaser and really don't want to use a 4.3. My other pick would be a 3800.
Thanks for any advice.
The 70's Olds 403's had those same main web windows, and were known to be weak due to that. Great info in this video.
The modern day 2J is the K24A2.
Forged internals and then have fun.
wat
I really enjoy your delivery of this tech info. Thanks. 👍💪
Also flat tappet buckets don't allow some aggressive cam profiles you can get from roller followers. Some manufacturers have made curved top valve buckets that allow more aggressive cam profiles but the 2jz hasn't done that yet everything available is flat top buckets.
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on.
These engines have massive potential.
Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
It most definitely is a contributing factor
When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product
This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance
Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
Calvin is wearing his uniform... greasy thermal undershirt...check, bed head...check 👍
Great video!
Love your channel!
I wonder would it be beneficial to use a head spacer to lower the compression and maximize the stock bottom end power potential? For people on a budget or who are limited to pump gas. I would also love to see how a 4200 with a centrifugal supercharger would do.
In other videos the compression was lowered using Subaru pistons.....and a centrifugal SC is in the works for Q3-2025
Why didn’t they add cam phasing to both the intake and exhaust cams? Other engines at the time of the vortec 4200 already had both cams and make similar power with less displacement.
I'll call GM on Monday and find out what they were thinking 25 years ago LOL. We wish they had it on both cams
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
Nice detailed, data driven analysis! As an Aerospace Engr and Materials Scientist your comments are spot on. One comment regarding longevity of AL vs FE blocks - the FE ductility characteristics help in long term longevity as well as dampening of any resonances/harmonics generated during High RPM runs …. But the newer design of the GM block - squeeze cast - is ultimately superior ( Looking for a GM Engin Engr to weigh in here HaHa :)
Keep it up!!!
Calvin, nice video to catch whilst smoking the turkey... My wife has a bottom girdle, too. Definitely increases stiffness,,,
Saying "aluminum block" is like saying "Black Shoe" there are more factors than just material like you said in the video. "My Buddy" only considers the material. "My Buddy" is a menace!
I think youve convinced me to do this swap rather than an LS in my 99 silverado from the 4.3 v6
I agree and love your content bro! Can't wait for an update on the Caddy Coyote! 💪🤠
Been wanting to mess with one of these for ages. Hadn't dug as deep as you have obviously, but they always looked pretty impressive. I think the aftermarket will keep expanding. I don't think it will ever be as extensive as for the 2JZ, but it also doesn't need to be. Really a bummer GM didn't keep making these. With the I6 getting more popular again, I wonder if they will bring back an updated version.
Ive seen someone pull out the LS from a 2016 Camaro for one of these 4200 and made 1000+ hp with a turbo so its definitely a strong engine
Sounds like a 2010 SS that has been transformed. LOL
@andrewnelson3733 your right it was 2010 not a 1016
th-cam.com/video/nHAlz4y6DYY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WAuxVkqMEuUzv_sg
Does the holly system recognize it ? I see the 5 cyl variant has issues.
Always love your videos!
Great info!
Us 4.2 TB owners need someone to produce a true bolt on turbo kit.
Calvin, I have seen you put these engines in race cars. Do you think they would be a good fit to put in a hot shot truck that I use to pull trailers all over the country? Also, do you think they would last or have to be rebuilt a lot?
I don't know if they would work good at towing. It's going to be hard to beat the dependability of a diesel.
@ thank you for your advise. I figured with all that you have done with this engine, you would know.
I thought the only weak point might be a lower melting point on aluminum making it easier to warp (Northstar anybody) But apparently the gray iron melts up. 1212° and this particular aluminum alloy melts at 1220°
What you don't see in this video is Nivlac's massive collection of Vortec 4200's he's waiting to list on eBay
We're in the buying mode. We have a bunch of plans for future projects.
You're leaving out a third measure known as "toughness"-- which is the inverse of "brittle". Materials can be very hard and increase their tensile strength, yet still be brittle and shatter easily. So there is a happy medium for the three. (hardness, toughness and tensile strength).
i subbed just for the classical music in the background in like 3 mins lol
What would be the best car forum to ask questions about a turbo atlas 4.2 build?
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
SPOT ON AND HOPE TO SEE IT CONTINUE TO GROW IVE LOOKED AT USING ONE IN A BUILD BUT AT THE TIME THE COST WAS PROHIBITIVE
What about the difference with temperature? Doesn't aluminum have a lower melting point, so with heat, it will be closer to it's melting point than steel, and therefore much more weak/ soft. Can you test hardness at higher temperatures (maybe with torch or something)
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times.
Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals
For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
I have a 58 chevy apache with the original I6 . I think this would be a great candidate to a swap and still keep it I6.
What manual transmission would you use/recommend?
do you think you can get an Atlas 5 cyl scream like a euro one, (or a v10) id love to put one into a Firebird. ~500 hp
Potentially. 500hp should be no problem at all.
Have you considered playing with an LV3 platform? Lighter and easier packaging. Aftermarket support for those is growing and some are getting pretty impressive numbers from them.
What is a lv3?
@@mikelmarion It's the 4.3 v6 out of GM trucks.
@@mikelmarion Not the old one. it's the newer one based on the LT platform.
I have a 2011 countryman awd. the urge to rwd swap it is high but i wish i could keep it awd and use one of these some how.