I’ve recently tried experimenting with something a bit like this with a more abbreviated backswing and taking 1 more club than normal to create the same distance ( eg take a 7 iron when you normally would take an 8 iron ) This made me shorten my backswing and swing a bit easier , concentrating on trying to get good contact and get into good positions in the key contact zone. I started doing it in the middle of a round when things weren’t going well and suddenly walked into a run of easy pars ( I play off 12 ) , hitting greens and fairways and with a slight loss of distance with the driver. They key difference was accuracy and consistency. Instead of forcing an 8 iron approach and pushing the limits of its distance , resulting in 50% pushes / pulls / hooks and missing greens etc , I was easing a 7 iron into the middle of the green for an easy two putt. It made me think whether all of us could just go for a longer iron ( or fairway wood ) more often. I’ve wondered if there’s an ego thing here. It feels great when you flush an 8 iron 155/160 into the middle of the green with a fully extended backswing , but how often can we pull that off? There was something about knowing that I had plenty of club that radically changed my backswing and made me feel like I was “placing” the ball on to the green ( or fairway ) rather than “ reaching “ for it. I think many of us worship at the altar of distance and power rather than accuracy and consistency. After all , if you are putting from 20 feet after hitting a 7 iron and your mate is in the bunker after smashing an 8 iron then no one cares how you got there or who hit the furthest. Same with driving. Your mate might be 20 /30 yards further on in the rough hitting out with a 6 iron whilst you are on the fairway with a decent lie hitting your 5 wood crisply. And I tell you one thing , hitting more fairways and greens does wonders for your confidence and takes pressure off your chipping , putting and recovery game , not to mention staying out of any nasty trouble or going OB. Hitting a 7 iron 145 felt a bit weird at first but I soon got over it when I saw the ball in the middle of the green.
Shawn could you do a video summarizing the high level points of what you did to change your swing over the past couple years? The feelings you had to change, numbers on boditrak and gears you paid attention to, and maybe even what you did in the gym to help you get into the positions you wanted to get into.
Pro VS Am is my favorite segment of the channel. I find it very interesting and entertaining. Really, it's the reason I initially subscribed. Great vid. Keep em coming.
Man, how many times I've said this when I was teaching. So many things in the swing are exactly right at one point and totally wrong at the other, depending on where in the sequence and timing they come. The answer is often not "more" of anything, just that thing at the right time and in the right context, preceded and followed by the right things, motivated by the right cause.
These are great video series guys. Very well done. I wish I could watch one and not realize I have faults in every area of the swing! I definitely over rotate to the point where my right arm (I'm a lefty) bends way too much and my left elbow over flexes and gets stuck behind me. One question (request) if you don't already: It would be extremely beneficial if players could send you a video of their swing and you do one of these AMG analyses on it with some advice. I'd definitely pay for something like that. One of the most difficult aspects of the golf swing too me is the fact that 'feel ain't real.' I know when I swing in a mirror I can see that although the swing 'feels' so shortened it's actually in a much better spot than my over rotation. Anyway, thanks guys and keep 'em coming!
This video also shows a very good view from above for watching how the power (club head speed) is released through impact for the Pro and where it is lost early for the Am.
Great video Mike!! This is definitely something that Shaun has worked on with me!! I once thought that more turn equaled more distance! Another great AMG video!!
We worked on his sequencing and pressure shifts to get his sway numbers more in line with what the pro example is doing. That's the best way to tighten up the top of the swing.
Or is it just a matter of getting him to believe he can generate enough speed from this position? Assuming of course that the rest of his swing is reasonably sound.
Awesome vid as always! It seems that the more neutral or even positive spine angle tilt of the pro player is indicative of the (steepening of the shoulders and hips) causing the lead arm to work more deep and underneath the lead shoulder allowing it to get a little more pinned against the torso for the pro player to feel that he cannot go any further in the backswing therefore having the pro player feel as though he needs to be more springy in the transition. Whereas the amateur player is not feeling enough resistance in his lead arm torso relationship causing him to feel like he needs to continue his backswing for more loading. I'm thinking of pencil fighting between flexible vs. stiffer pencils, you keep wanting to pull the pencil back farther until you reached the maximum threshold of resistance.
The pro is actually keeping his left arm off his chest at his top than the am did at his top. But you're right, most golfers believe that having the left arm pinned is something that should happen at the top... it's not!
Is there a better way to learn than these Pros vs Ams videos? I think not. A picture paints a thousand words and you guys have this wired. Keep up the good work. Especially on the Pro's V Ams.
Very interesting as usual ! It would be interesting to have the same analysis with the EuropeanTour Pro golfer Kiradech Aphibarnrat...if you ever heard about him. He is an amazing talented and gifted player with a big overswing and very active hands, a little bit like John Daly...
To me this is the most important video you have posted. All the others, showing different movements, different body positions, angles and the like are tweaks that will improve your consistency and accuracy, but if applied to a swing with poor timing and a clear overswing, they will only make a bad swing look good. I currently hold a 5.4 handicap index and have been stuck there for a long time. I have looked at video of PGA players, even ones with a slow fluid swing a la Freddie Couples, and I tried to match tempo in returning the club to the ball, and I never could come close. Freddie always beat me to the ball. But my swing looks relatively ok. After seeing this video, it became crystal clear why. All your videos are a great help, but this is the holy grail, possibly even the secret of the golf swing. Ever wonder why once in a while when you swing easy you smash it significantly further and straighter than when you try to do so? This is the reason why. When you swing easy, you don't take it back so far that everything starts breaking down. Thanks so much!!!!
Awesome, super glad this has helped. Soooooo much of what we do in our live lessons is firmly centered around timing. Timing has gotten such a bad rep from our industry for so long. How can you ignore timing in a 1-second motion? It's critcal.
This is something I definitely struggle with. Where is the power generated with what feels like an abbreviated backswing and how do you communicate that to students? (other than watching pros on Gears, lol)
The sequencing is big for this, and it's really what should determine the length of backswing... that's why we put the sway numbers in this video. The differences between the two are significant at the pro's top.
This is so true. This really becomes important when hitting the ball from a bad lie - when on a hill - hitting from a bunker - hitting a ball from tall /thick grass. It is rare when a more rotated backswing will combine with a bigger follow through; especially for players with back, and joint issues.
It would be good to know how to get from golfer B to A! Is it just a case of feeling like you have a tiny uncoiled backswing and start turning the hips sooner?
No there is plenty of coil in both of those swings when they're at the same spot... the am even with more coil. The reason we included the sway numbers is that they are a huge part of the "solution". The pro has sequenced his movements to get himself ready for the downswing much earlier. The am is hunting for that end-of-range-of-motion sequence, which leaves him camped out on that right side.
Do you guys think I'm over coiling here: th-cam.com/video/ikzuKhk9sDY/w-d-xo.html I seem to loose my lag and early extend... would love to get some ideas on pressure shift on my swing.
I don't really see an early extension, but you could benefit from getting the hips and shoulders slightly more open at impact. That would help you with your lag issue, your swing doesn't look too bad, but if you were to get the shoulders tilting slightly more open to target it would encourage less loft at impact, and the club being more behind your hands.
But why is a shorter backswing better? (I know it is better; I just don’t know why.) Doesn’t it allow for a longer and more powerful swing as long as the sequence is still correct? I could see that perhaps consistency and accuracy would be improved with a shorter backswing, but power too?
At impact the hips of the Pro are open 33.6° vs the hips for the AM open ONLY 9.4°. Hence the AM has NOT been able to produce fast downswing. At impact Hips should be open 30-40°.
Ben Hogan in The Modern Fundamentals, page 106: The Hips lead the Shoulders all the way on the downswing. Dr Ralph Mann in Swing like a Pro, page 157: Early in the downswing, the hips are already open to the target, & page 185: The hips are wide open to the target, while the shoulders are square.
I think I may be in the minority in some cases, I develop so much lag during the downswing that when I hit the ball, the club is de-lofted by about 10-15 degrees, and I wonder why I can't get the bloody ball in the air......
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I’ve recently tried experimenting with something a bit like this with a more abbreviated backswing and taking 1 more club than normal to create the same distance ( eg take a 7 iron when you normally would take an 8 iron ) This made me shorten my backswing and swing a bit easier , concentrating on trying to get good contact and get into good positions in the key contact zone. I started doing it in the middle of a round when things weren’t going well and suddenly walked into a run of easy pars ( I play off 12 ) , hitting greens and fairways and with a slight loss of distance with the driver. They key difference was accuracy and consistency. Instead of forcing an 8 iron approach and pushing the limits of its distance , resulting in 50% pushes / pulls / hooks and missing greens etc , I was easing a 7 iron into the middle of the green for an easy two putt. It made me think whether all of us could just go for a longer iron ( or fairway wood ) more often. I’ve wondered if there’s an ego thing here. It feels great when you flush an 8 iron 155/160 into the middle of the green with a fully extended backswing , but how often can we pull that off? There was something about knowing that I had plenty of club that radically changed my backswing and made me feel like I was “placing” the ball on to the green ( or fairway ) rather than “ reaching “ for it. I think many of us worship at the altar of distance and power rather than accuracy and consistency. After all , if you are putting from 20 feet after hitting a 7 iron and your mate is in the bunker after smashing an 8 iron then no one cares how you got there or who hit the furthest. Same with driving. Your mate might be 20 /30 yards further on in the rough hitting out with a 6 iron whilst you are on the fairway with a decent lie hitting your 5 wood crisply. And I tell you one thing , hitting more fairways and greens does wonders for your confidence and takes pressure off your chipping , putting and recovery game , not to mention staying out of any nasty trouble or going OB. Hitting a 7 iron 145 felt a bit weird at first but I soon got over it when I saw the ball in the middle of the green.
Shawn could you do a video summarizing the high level points of what you did to change your swing over the past couple years? The feelings you had to change, numbers on boditrak and gears you paid attention to, and maybe even what you did in the gym to help you get into the positions you wanted to get into.
Great video. The difference in timing is amazing.
Pro VS Am is my favorite segment of the channel. I find it very interesting and entertaining. Really, it's the reason I initially subscribed. Great vid. Keep em coming.
Any recommendations for future episodes?
What about taking a look at the lead shoulder in the down swing and how that effects the hands and possibly shaft lean.
Great idea! That will be an eye opener for so many golfers👍
Man, how many times I've said this when I was teaching. So many things in the swing are exactly right at one point and totally wrong at the other, depending on where in the sequence and timing they come. The answer is often not "more" of anything, just that thing at the right time and in the right context, preceded and followed by the right things, motivated by the right cause.
These are great video series guys. Very well done. I wish I could watch one and not realize I have faults in every area of the swing! I definitely over rotate to the point where my right arm (I'm a lefty) bends way too much and my left elbow over flexes and gets stuck behind me. One question (request) if you don't already: It would be extremely beneficial if players could send you a video of their swing and you do one of these AMG analyses on it with some advice. I'd definitely pay for something like that. One of the most difficult aspects of the golf swing too me is the fact that 'feel ain't real.' I know when I swing in a mirror I can see that although the swing 'feels' so shortened it's actually in a much better spot than my over rotation. Anyway, thanks guys and keep 'em coming!
We'd be happy to do a swing analysis for you, Vinsk. You can follow this link for the details: athleticmotiongolf.clickfunnels.com/ilessons
This video also shows a very good view from above for watching how the power (club head speed) is released through impact for the Pro and where it is lost early for the Am.
Mike. Love this one. This is me. Need part 2. Drills to fix.
Another Brilliant video from you guys, really helpful Mike, Shaun. Thanks
Thanks brother🙏👊
Great video Mike!! This is definitely something that Shaun has worked on with me!! I once thought that more turn equaled more distance!
Another great AMG video!!
You aren't (weren't) alone in thinking that😬
Really informative video. Such a great series!
Hey guys great stuff, so what advice would you give to the golfer on the right?
We worked on his sequencing and pressure shifts to get his sway numbers more in line with what the pro example is doing. That's the best way to tighten up the top of the swing.
Or is it just a matter of getting him to believe he can generate enough speed from this position? Assuming of course that the rest of his swing is reasonably sound.
Awesome vid as always! It seems that the more neutral or even positive spine angle tilt of the pro player is indicative of the (steepening of the shoulders and hips) causing the lead arm to work more deep and underneath the lead shoulder allowing it to get a little more pinned against the torso for the pro player to feel that he cannot go any further in the backswing therefore having the pro player feel as though he needs to be more springy in the transition. Whereas the amateur player is not feeling enough resistance in his lead arm torso relationship causing him to feel like he needs to continue his backswing for more loading. I'm thinking of pencil fighting between flexible vs. stiffer pencils, you keep wanting to pull the pencil back farther until you reached the maximum threshold of resistance.
The pro is actually keeping his left arm off his chest at his top than the am did at his top. But you're right, most golfers believe that having the left arm pinned is something that should happen at the top... it's not!
How does one know when and if they are in the right place at the top of the swing? What’s the feedback? Thanks, Robert
Is there a better way to learn than these Pros vs Ams videos? I think not. A picture paints a thousand words and you guys have this wired. Keep up the good work. Especially on the Pro's V Ams.
We learn from what they do every day... what's the old saying - "success leaves clues"
Very interesting as usual ! It would be interesting to have the same analysis with the EuropeanTour Pro golfer Kiradech Aphibarnrat...if you ever heard about him. He is an amazing talented and gifted player with a big overswing and very active hands, a little bit like John Daly...
Yep, isn't one of his nicknames the "Asian John Daly?"
Athletic Motion Golf Exactly !
To me this is the most important video you have posted. All the others, showing different movements, different body positions, angles and the like are tweaks that will improve your consistency and accuracy, but if applied to a swing with poor timing and a clear overswing, they will only make a bad swing look good. I currently hold a 5.4 handicap index and have been stuck there for a long time. I have looked at video of PGA players, even ones with a slow fluid swing a la Freddie Couples, and I tried to match tempo in returning the club to the ball, and I never could come close. Freddie always beat me to the ball. But my swing looks relatively ok. After seeing this video, it became crystal clear why. All your videos are a great help, but this is the holy grail, possibly even the secret of the golf swing. Ever wonder why once in a while when you swing easy you smash it significantly further and straighter than when you try to do so? This is the reason why. When you swing easy, you don't take it back so far that everything starts breaking down. Thanks so much!!!!
Awesome, super glad this has helped. Soooooo much of what we do in our live lessons is firmly centered around timing. Timing has gotten such a bad rep from our industry for so long. How can you ignore timing in a 1-second motion? It's critcal.
Would be great of you could synch Am with start of Pro Downswing position... to compare time to impact ! Is Pro or Am faster ?
This is something I definitely struggle with. Where is the power generated with what feels like an abbreviated backswing and how do you communicate that to students? (other than watching pros on Gears, lol)
The sequencing is big for this, and it's really what should determine the length of backswing... that's why we put the sway numbers in this video. The differences between the two are significant at the pro's top.
This is so true. This really becomes important when hitting the ball from a bad lie - when on a hill - hitting from a bunker - hitting a ball from tall /thick grass.
It is rare when a more rotated backswing will combine with a bigger follow through; especially for players with back, and joint issues.
It would be good to know how to get from golfer B to A! Is it just a case of feeling like you have a tiny uncoiled backswing and start turning the hips sooner?
No there is plenty of coil in both of those swings when they're at the same spot... the am even with more coil. The reason we included the sway numbers is that they are a huge part of the "solution". The pro has sequenced his movements to get himself ready for the downswing much earlier. The am is hunting for that end-of-range-of-motion sequence, which leaves him camped out on that right side.
Do you guys think I'm over coiling here: th-cam.com/video/ikzuKhk9sDY/w-d-xo.html I seem to loose my lag and early extend... would love to get some ideas on pressure shift on my swing.
I don't really see an early extension, but you could benefit from getting the hips and shoulders slightly more open at impact. That would help you with your lag issue, your swing doesn't look too bad, but if you were to get the shoulders tilting slightly more open to target it would encourage less loft at impact, and the club being more behind your hands.
Makes sense as when you watch pro golf most seem to make what looks like a 3/4 swing but it is probably all you need.
Very interesting
But why is a shorter backswing better? (I know it is better; I just don’t know why.) Doesn’t it allow for a longer and more powerful swing as long as the sequence is still correct? I could see that perhaps consistency and accuracy would be improved with a shorter backswing, but power too?
I have one equation that can take care of all the problems; set up, take off, down swing, tempo and balance. 5 major problems.
Its because most ams are told 101 things they should be doing on their backswing by most pros!
Classy as ever guys
Thanks brother!
Unless your John Daily don't over rotate is what I am hearing?
Great nuggets!!!
Thanks!
@athleticmotiongolf Are there any nice drills for this?
Yessir. We'll be shooting a number of them this weekend.
Athletic Motion Golf You guys are Awesome!
At impact the hips of the Pro are open 33.6° vs the hips for the AM open ONLY 9.4°. Hence the AM has NOT been able to produce fast downswing. At impact Hips should be open 30-40°.
Care to expand on that?
Ben Hogan in The Modern Fundamentals, page 106: The Hips lead the Shoulders all the way on the downswing.
Dr Ralph Mann in Swing like a Pro, page 157: Early in the downswing, the hips are already open to the target, & page 185: The hips are wide open to the target, while the shoulders are square.
Be careful who you listen to regarding what the pros actually do.
Once you said the golfer on the left was recentered, I knew he was the pro!
Two completely different intentions. I bet the AM doesn't even know what the clubhead needs to do to strike it correctly.
IIRC he is a single digit golfer.
I think I may be in the minority in some cases, I develop so much lag during the downswing that when I hit the ball, the club is de-lofted by about 10-15 degrees, and I wonder why I can't get the bloody ball in the air......
Looks like Henrik Stensons body? And the other could be me😂😂
😂
프로는 정면에서 우측견갑골이 보여야된다고 설명하는사람이 많던데 그게 아닌가보네요, 제가 알고있던 상식이랑 정 반대의 결과를 보여주니까 당혹스럽군요
I have one equation that can take care of all the problems; set up, take off, down swing, tempo and balance. 5 major problems.