Great video! 2 questions. I’m having someone reshaft my Callaway DCB irons. Going from Aerotech SteelFiber i95 Regular graphite shafts to Mitsubishi MMT taper 95 stiff graphite shaft. Doing 10 clubs so I think I should invest in having him FLO those shafts. Agree? Second, if the iron set is 2° upright, do you match the Vokey wedges? Or do you keep the Vokey wedges standard? The person I take lessons from says to keep them standard. I’ve read arguments for both. Thanks.
While I'm not convinced that doing any kind of spine alignment technique really helps (search for a video by Mobile Clubmaker where he uses high speed cameras to show all shafts return to their vertical position on the first cycle, which is all there is to a golf swing), FLO is easy to do and inexpensive. So it can't hurt, and I still believe it can help limit toe droop. In terms of lie angle, for me ball flight rules here. So if you hit your wedges right, then definitely consider making them more upright. Many golfers, including me, tend to pull wedge shots so going more flat is common in my club making world, anyway!
Ur video is the best one out there. One question. I have the laser and use it too. But once you do it with the club head which is a different weight, the spot changes…so is it best to use the club head or the laser? Since they are two different weights….
If you can FLO with the head on, that would be preferable. My tool doesn't allow for that. I'm trying to understand why the spot would change based on the weight used with the laser. Unless perhaps we can find a false stable plane, and the heavier club head helps to avoid that. But if we are using a CPM meter along with the laser, the numbers should confirm that we've found the stable plane (that is, if we find more than one spot where the laser line bounces straight, the one with the highest CPM should be the stable plane).
Hi Dave, Happy new year. @ 2:12 you mentioned that after finding the initial flat line mode of oscillation you rotate the shaft 180 deg and compare vibration frequency of the 2 orientations. I’m confused as to how the frequency could actually change in the same plane of symmetry....? Thanks
Happy New Year! I sometimes find that the CPMs can vary by 1-2 when taking the measurement after the 180 rotation. Now, that is a small number and probably within the standard error of the device. But I do bounce the club until the same number comes up twice, so there is some degree of reliability there. In terms of why that might be, I don't have an informed answer!
I have a bit of experience with the SST Pure process - I had several shafts done and played them quite a bit. Did I think they made a difference? Mentally, I think they did - plus learning that many tour pros have their shafts aligned gave me confidence that I was playing the best case scenario for all clubs involved. Except for the newest adjustable hosel drivers - which allow you to move the shaft all over the place kind of negates the Puring process. But it was very hard for me to quantify the results, so I slowly dropped the extra charge over the years and did not feel my game suffered because of it (plus the steady price increase of the service helped my decision making). As a consolation, I purchased an inexpensive spine finder device that I aligned all future clubs with - maybe not perfect, but better than nothing. Question - did you ever compare SST Puring, FLO and manual spine finding? FYI - I also build fishing rods and spine finding when aligning guide placement is essential for great rod action....
Great comments. I haven't compared the three on many shafts, but have on a couple. Based on my experience with each method and reviewing experiments of other club makers I've concluded that none of it really makes a difference. And, without a frequency meter one can't be sure you have found the spine, or the "right" spine. Same with FLO. I still flow shafts for some, it's easy and adds some quality control. But more golfers don't want there graphics all over the place and have strong preferences for their orientation. Hence ruling out all of these processes.
@@fit2yougolf926 On the subect of shafts, I have been reading a lot about the super flexible $800 AutoFlex shaft. Very mixed reviews - some are getting 50 yard gains, some not much at all. I know their are a lot of variables at play here so it can all be taken with a grain of salt - some testers state that the same results can be had with super whippy versions of most other graphite shaft brands - at a far less cost. Have you experimented at all with these claims? I recently picked up a set of ladies clubs with some real buggy whip shafts I may transplant in my driver....
@@senko000 I have a little, and did not like the results. I can go soft regular with some shafts, but more than that I get crazy ball flight, high launch, high spin. Haven't tried an Auto flex however, so I can't offer an option on that. But even there, there are different flexes/weights.
I had a shaft pured just so that I could check my FLO process. I've been doing FLO for a couple years now, and I'm pretty confident in my results, but when I compared my results with the Pured results, they didn't line up. And to be honest with you, I used my FLO results to mount the shaft.
Now you are FLO with the club head on right so many make the mistake and use a symmetrical 200gr tip weigh And because of the geometry of the club head that process will not work
So I'd say the other way around. I find the point where the shaft bounces straight up and down using FLO. Then I determine whether that orientation is the stiffest on the frequency meter, or 180 degrees from there. The stiffest orientation goes into the head in the 12 o'clock position.
12 o’clock to the groves on the club face? Like 3 or 9 o’clock would align with the grooves on the club face and 12 o’clock would be perpendicular to groves on club face?
@@fit2yougolf926 I don't charge for it in my builds either, and to be honest, most people I build clubs for won't be able to tell a difference one way or the other anyway. As far as frequency matching and weight sorting, I don't have the tools or stock on hand to do that!
@@USNMU I watched a TXG video recently where Ian had Matt hit two identical shafts except one was Pured. When asked which he thought the Pured shaft was, Matt chose the non-Pured version. And that test was done with a premium shaft (one of the Accra's I think?) and a good golfer. So my guess is that few golfers, if any, can tell if a shaft has been FLO'd. Still, it adds a level of precision and quality to the build. Also, and I should have said this in the video, I have sent shafts back when I couldn't find anything close to a flat line. Thankfully, that is rare.
Hi Dave, I have a question about wedge pak selection. First, i have a 48 degree gap wedge in my bag with 2 slots left. What degree wedges should I go for? Second, I am a new golfer, been playing for about 8 months. Im a high handicapper. What wedges should i choose from GolfWorks? I've been looking at the gliders because they seem to offer maximum forgiveness. But would they be good clubs to grow into? What would you recommend? Thank you for your input.
I would get a 52 degree for the next one (I would recommend the TSW Forged, it's a great wedge with a nice amount of bounce for forgiveness) and a 56 mid sole in the Series M+ (they are still available, at least for now). That sole is fairly wide and forgiving. There is nothing wrong with the Glider, I just think you would grow into the M+ mid sole. I hope that helps!
I think both those practices would further tighten the tolerances of the build. I have tried using a clip-on laser that can be used with the head installed (I use the old fishing line trick to keep it on the shaft, which I also use when frequency matching), but did not have much success. I think that is because the laser I used was a poor choice. McGolf has a nice video on TH-cam on how he does that, and I think he includes a link to the laser he uses.
The laser is not necessary, I watch a shiny spot on the head and twang the head horizontally instead of vertical. If I can think of any other steps, I do it. Can't hurt.
So you twang the club vertically until you find the stable plane. Do you then mark the top of the shaft and install the head with the face groves aligned with that marked shaft? Or 90 degrees?
I install the head so the line on the shaft matches the leading edge of the club. I believe this is consistent with your description of the face grooves aligned with the mark on the shaft. Some club builders go 90 degrees, but I am trying to control club droop as much as possible.
I think for the average golfer these processes don't make any difference. You would have to chart a large number of shots with a good golfer to see even a slight variance
I would agree with that. But adding FLO to the build process is easy to do, and I think provides a better quality club. And I don't charge extra for it, so there isn't a financial burden.
@@fit2yougolf926 I definitely want the best product so I would agree. Do you have any knowledge if big name club manufactures use this process in there club assembly? You would think with the price of their clubs they would. When they use shafts that have bands stamped on, like Nippon, they are consistent facing up. I don't think those shaft labels are setup to mark FLO?
@@pgowan357 I don't know of any manufacturers that do this practice offhand, other than the Maltby shafts (they flow them prior to painting the graphics, and mark the grip with a line for the stable plane). But, I should add that I don't get the opportunity to work with the high end stuff very often, so perhaps some manufacturers use this process with some models.
Now,.... let's get some info on ei profile'n shafts, have you gotten into that aspect of fitting yet. That needs to be something I wish golfworks would database. To me ei profile'n could be the best fitting parameter out there. Due to the fact it sorts the bending profile of a shaft. I'm finding swing speed, frequency, swing weight is not so solid. Via a guy can get on a simulator, and hit a 7i 135 to 150. Yet get outside on a course and hit it further. What sims, and data aren't capturing is a player transition, load and tempo. Long story long.... have you gotten into ei profile'n and what's your take.
King, I subscribe to a website that offers EI profiles, but not for every shaft. Still, that information is very helpful when really trying to match a shaft to a golfer. I also have a database from one of my classes at the Golfworks that has many shafts frequency tested at 4 points. I go to that quite often.
I’ve played SST for a long time and was definitely curious to see how FLO compared well out of 17 sets of irons they come out the same great video
Great video! 2 questions. I’m having someone reshaft my Callaway DCB irons. Going from Aerotech SteelFiber i95 Regular graphite shafts to Mitsubishi MMT taper 95 stiff graphite shaft. Doing 10 clubs so I think I should invest in having him FLO those shafts. Agree? Second, if the iron set is 2° upright, do you match the Vokey wedges? Or do you keep the Vokey wedges standard? The person I take lessons from says to keep them standard. I’ve read arguments for both. Thanks.
While I'm not convinced that doing any kind of spine alignment technique really helps (search for a video by Mobile Clubmaker where he uses high speed cameras to show all shafts return to their vertical position on the first cycle, which is all there is to a golf swing), FLO is easy to do and inexpensive. So it can't hurt, and I still believe it can help limit toe droop.
In terms of lie angle, for me ball flight rules here. So if you hit your wedges right, then definitely consider making them more upright. Many golfers, including me, tend to pull wedge shots so going more flat is common in my club making world, anyway!
Ur video is the best one out there. One question. I have the laser and use it too. But once you do it with the club head which is a different weight, the spot changes…so is it best to use the club head or the laser? Since they are two different weights….
If you can FLO with the head on, that would be preferable. My tool doesn't allow for that.
I'm trying to understand why the spot would change based on the weight used with the laser. Unless perhaps we can find a false stable plane, and the heavier club head helps to avoid that. But if we are using a CPM meter along with the laser, the numbers should confirm that we've found the stable plane (that is, if we find more than one spot where the laser line bounces straight, the one with the highest CPM should be the stable plane).
@@fit2yougolf926 i just did mine again with the laser and no clubhead. I think the laser is better on it’s own
Hi Dave,
Happy new year.
@ 2:12 you mentioned that after finding the initial flat line mode of oscillation you rotate the shaft 180 deg and compare vibration frequency of the 2 orientations.
I’m confused as to how the frequency could actually change in the same plane of symmetry....?
Thanks
Happy New Year! I sometimes find that the CPMs can vary by 1-2 when taking the measurement after the 180 rotation. Now, that is a small number and probably within the standard error of the device. But I do bounce the club until the same number comes up twice, so there is some degree of reliability there. In terms of why that might be, I don't have an informed answer!
So if the oscillation is straight wouldn't you onstall the line facing direction of clubface or 9 o'clock since that is the direction of shaft bend?
I have a bit of experience with the SST Pure process - I had several shafts done and played them quite a bit. Did I think they made a difference? Mentally, I think they did - plus learning that many tour pros have their shafts aligned gave me confidence that I was playing the best case scenario for all clubs involved. Except for the newest adjustable hosel drivers - which allow you to move the shaft all over the place kind of negates the Puring process. But it was very hard for me to quantify the results, so I slowly dropped the extra charge over the years and did not feel my game suffered because of it (plus the steady price increase of the service helped my decision making). As a consolation, I purchased an inexpensive spine finder device that I aligned all future clubs with - maybe not perfect, but better than nothing. Question - did you ever compare SST Puring, FLO and manual spine finding?
FYI - I also build fishing rods and spine finding when aligning guide placement is essential for great rod action....
Great comments. I haven't compared the three on many shafts, but have on a couple. Based on my experience with each method and reviewing experiments of other club makers I've concluded that none of it really makes a difference. And, without a frequency meter one can't be sure you have found the spine, or the "right" spine. Same with FLO. I still flow shafts for some, it's easy and adds some quality control. But more golfers don't want there graphics all over the place and have strong preferences for their orientation. Hence ruling out all of these processes.
@@fit2yougolf926 On the subect of shafts, I have been reading a lot about the super flexible $800 AutoFlex shaft. Very mixed reviews - some are getting 50 yard gains, some not much at all. I know their are a lot of variables at play here so it can all be taken with a grain of salt - some testers state that the same results can be had with super whippy versions of most other graphite shaft brands - at a far less cost. Have you experimented at all with these claims? I recently picked up a set of ladies clubs with some real buggy whip shafts I may transplant in my driver....
@@senko000 I have a little, and did not like the results. I can go soft regular with some shafts, but more than that I get crazy ball flight, high launch, high spin. Haven't tried an Auto flex however, so I can't offer an option on that. But even there, there are different flexes/weights.
I had a shaft pured just so that I could check my FLO process. I've been doing FLO for a couple years now, and I'm pretty confident in my results, but when I compared my results with the Pured results, they didn't line up. And to be honest with you, I used my FLO results to mount the shaft.
Interesting results Ron. I'm going to keep checking whenever I get the chance to gather more data.
Now you are FLO with the club head on right so many make the mistake and use a symmetrical 200gr tip weigh And because of the geometry of the club head that process will not work
So you orient the stiffest plane at 12 o'clock and then adjust for flo?
So I'd say the other way around. I find the point where the shaft bounces straight up and down using FLO. Then I determine whether that orientation is the stiffest on the frequency meter, or 180 degrees from there. The stiffest orientation goes into the head in the 12 o'clock position.
12 o’clock to the groves on the club face? Like 3 or 9 o’clock would align with the grooves on the club face and 12 o’clock would be perpendicular to groves on club face?
Golfworks charges $20 to PURE the shaft, but do *you* charge anything to FLO the shaft for your builds?
John, no I don't. It's built into the price I charge to build a club, along with weight sorting shafts (when using parallels), swing weighting, etc.
@@fit2yougolf926 I don't charge for it in my builds either, and to be honest, most people I build clubs for won't be able to tell a difference one way or the other anyway. As far as frequency matching and weight sorting, I don't have the tools or stock on hand to do that!
@@USNMU I watched a TXG video recently where Ian had Matt hit two identical shafts except one was Pured. When asked which he thought the Pured shaft was, Matt chose the non-Pured version. And that test was done with a premium shaft (one of the Accra's I think?) and a good golfer. So my guess is that few golfers, if any, can tell if a shaft has been FLO'd. Still, it adds a level of precision and quality to the build. Also, and I should have said this in the video, I have sent shafts back when I couldn't find anything close to a flat line. Thankfully, that is rare.
Hi Dave, I have a question about wedge pak selection. First, i have a 48 degree gap wedge in my bag with 2 slots left. What degree wedges should I go for? Second, I am a new golfer, been playing for about 8 months. Im a high handicapper. What wedges should i choose from GolfWorks? I've been looking at the gliders because they seem to offer maximum forgiveness. But would they be good clubs to grow into? What would you recommend? Thank you for your input.
I would get a 52 degree for the next one (I would recommend the TSW Forged, it's a great wedge with a nice amount of bounce for forgiveness) and a 56 mid sole in the Series M+ (they are still available, at least for now). That sole is fairly wide and forgiving. There is nothing wrong with the Glider, I just think you would grow into the M+ mid sole. I hope that helps!
I FLO only on cut to length shafts, using the head intended for the shaft. Its insurance the club will be as consistent as humanly posible
I think both those practices would further tighten the tolerances of the build. I have tried using a clip-on laser that can be used with the head installed (I use the old fishing line trick to keep it on the shaft, which I also use when frequency matching), but did not have much success. I think that is because the laser I used was a poor choice. McGolf has a nice video on TH-cam on how he does that, and I think he includes a link to the laser he uses.
The laser is not necessary, I watch a shiny spot on the head and twang the head horizontally instead of vertical. If I can think of any other steps, I do it. Can't hurt.
@@summerhayscustomgolf9678 Great tip, thanks!
So you twang the club vertically until you find the stable plane. Do you then mark the top of the shaft and install the head with the face groves aligned with that marked shaft? Or 90 degrees?
I install the head so the line on the shaft matches the leading edge of the club. I believe this is consistent with your description of the face grooves aligned with the mark on the shaft. Some club builders go 90 degrees, but I am trying to control club droop as much as possible.
I think for the average golfer these processes don't make any difference. You would have to chart a large number of shots with a good golfer to see even a slight variance
I would agree with that. But adding FLO to the build process is easy to do, and I think provides a better quality club. And I don't charge extra for it, so there isn't a financial burden.
@@fit2yougolf926 I definitely want the best product so I would agree. Do you have any knowledge if big name club manufactures use this process in there club assembly? You would think with the price of their clubs they would. When they use shafts that have bands stamped on, like Nippon, they are consistent facing up. I don't think those shaft labels are setup to mark FLO?
@@pgowan357 I don't know of any manufacturers that do this practice offhand, other than the Maltby shafts (they flow them prior to painting the graphics, and mark the grip with a line for the stable plane). But, I should add that I don't get the opportunity to work with the high end stuff very often, so perhaps some manufacturers use this process with some models.
@@fit2yougolf926 interesting vid. I am going to include this in future builds. Thanks for the education
Now,.... let's get some info on ei profile'n shafts, have you gotten into that aspect of fitting yet. That needs to be something I wish golfworks would database.
To me ei profile'n could be the best fitting parameter out there. Due to the fact it sorts the bending profile of a shaft.
I'm finding swing speed, frequency, swing weight is not so solid. Via a guy can get on a simulator, and hit a 7i 135 to 150. Yet get outside on a course and hit it further.
What sims, and data aren't capturing is a player transition, load and tempo.
Long story long.... have you gotten into ei profile'n and what's your take.
King, I subscribe to a website that offers EI profiles, but not for every shaft. Still, that information is very helpful when really trying to match a shaft to a golfer. I also have a database from one of my classes at the Golfworks that has many shafts frequency tested at 4 points. I go to that quite often.
@@fit2yougolf926 ... ahhh cool.
$70 per club to pure. I would love to pay $20
Ouch!