Once I noticed the Musai's essentially an upside down Enterprise, I told myself spacenoid engineers' souls aren't held down by gravity, but they are held down by pop culture.
Funnily, in the origin movie there is a ship that's claimed to be passenger ship but is actually an upside down Musai. It was an attempt to hide the military development of the ship class, so the make it upside down to fool the federation.
Funny thing, after reading this comment, it reminded me of a Star Trek ship fan design I thought of that had a similar layout to the Musai except the nacelles were each smaller nacelles built to each make up a singular "cluster nacelle" design.
I think the most interesting part of this video is when I realized that the musai class is essentially the same design aesthetic of the enterprise from Star Trek just flipped upside down.
To be fair I think some can argue that the initial reason why mobile suits were launched from the rear is so to give the mobile suits a little extra protection send arguably them launching is where they're at they're most vulnerable It's like how most armored personnel carriers the troops come out from the rear of the vehicle because the vehicle can offer more protection do I guess in the Musashi case it probably wasn't sturdy enough to offer that extra cover
In regards to the rear facing hanger, it could also be that they were thinking about safer launches, sure you have a little less propellant for combat but your not getting shot down if the ship is engaging in ship to ship warfare.
Yeah I would also add that getting your hangar hit by say, a missile or a particle cannon while it's opened would probably lead to losing the entire ship.
Also if you have two fleets facing off against each other in a line of battle it's not actually that big a detriment to be launched parallel relative to the enemy line. It means you aren't traveling directly towards the enemy and therefore can safely form up with your squadron before heading in. This makes sense given that line ahead was the standard formation at the start of the OYW and it was only afterwards when mobile suits came to dominate combat that the ships started staying far back outside of combat.
Exactly this. It's pretty logical even. When the Musai and Zaku were developed, mobile suit combat was new and its dominance was not yet securely proven. Ship-to-ship combat was still the norm, so they put the catapult facing backwards so the hangar and mobile suits were shielded by the mass of the ship and the guns were facing the enemy line.
It what you would see in an AFV (Armored Fighting Vehicle), the Zaku mobile suits leave out the back while the ship acts as a physical barrier with fire support.
Since the Sleeves/3rd Neo Zeon and Musai-Kai were mentioned in the video, it’s worth mentioning that along with the Endra and Musaka, they also had a Musai-Kai at Palau. It was the ship whose bridge was crushed then exploded as the asteroids were sandwiching all the ships in the dock😅
I do think that the Origin version of the Musai is the one that makes the most sense as the hanger is integrated in the front hull, behind the komusai. Because of this, there is ALOT more space to the point that it can carry 7 Zakus (in origin version of events, 6 normal zakus infiltrated the Noa colony + Chars Zaku) which is honestly way too much for the Musai.
For the later classes being also referred to as "musai" I feel that is probably because to the people of Zeon the musai class was a significant change a bit like how a lot of battleships in the build up to WW1 ended up being "Dreadnought"s as they followed similar design principles to the Dreadnought class
I think the rearward facing catapults could have been intended to keep the mobile suits out of enemy fire when they're launching, and thus most vulnerable
Yeah, I figure the idea behind the catapult is less "give the MS a headstart in getting to their enemy" and more "get them away from the launching ship and maneuvering ASAP potentially while under fire" in the Musai's case.
My personal speculation on why the Musai is launched from behind while the main guns were on the front seems to stem from 2 reasons: -Mobile suits were designed to be a CIWS first and would be best launched from behind to deter the obvious weakness of a Musai which is the lack of armament behind the ship -Mobile suits launched from behind a ship had less chances of being hit during the take off phase and was more likely to dodge an attack as it maneuvered its formation towards the front of the ship.
I think the early Musai had rear-facing launch bays, because they are a major weakpoint. Should a missile find its way inside, it is pretty likely that most of the suits and personnel would be lost, and I assume the interior isn't armored. That kind of gaping wound would probably be fatal for the ship. Real-world APCs usually deploy troops from the rear. Part of this is because the vehicle itself can serve as a shield while they deploy, but also prevents the critical blow that I had mentioned.
On the RF Musai. The whole RF Series just got retconed by F90FF that there are two generations of them, the first batch are those that appear in the old F90 manga (most were identified as original OYW MS back then), and the later batch are the one appear in design series/Formular War 0122 (the RF Series we know). Basically, the 1st generation RF Series are almost identical to their OYW counterparts (with some oddities like Zaku II armed with Hambrabi's sea serpent, or Gyan has heat rod) but internally they're overhauled according to Universal Standard for easy of maintenance. Their old appearance is purely for symbolism and morale boost (something the Mars Zeon do since the First Neo Zeon War with their version of Zaku III, Dom III, and Gelgoog III. In other words, a 1st generation RF Series look just like the old crafts, but their hardware are fully compatible with newer equipments including those used by the Federation. There is no official words on RF Musai, but I guess that this also applies to it.
It's kinda funny that Zeon themselves couldn't really think of a warship design that would be effective in countering Mobile Suit warfare even while acknowledging the Federation would probably be producing their own eventually and having years of unmitigated Mobile Suit technological developement to think of something. The Musai design itself was as vulnerable as the Salamis-class to Mobile Suits at the end of the day, probably moreso with that wider profile from the engines.
I would imagine the reason the Musai lacked close range weapons would because if the main hanger could hold a standard complement of 4 Zakus but the standard Zeon squads especially Zakus was 3 the 4th could be held back either as cover for the ship or back for the squad. Also given the Komusai was designed for atmospheric re entry but was still outfitted with a pain of vulcan guns this could be used as additional backup if an enemy unit got to close. As far as why the hanger door to launch mobile suits was in the back rather the front I would say the mega partical cannon placement had something to do with it. The suits could be launched from the rear while the mega cannons fired to the front and not risk hitting their allied suits. And when looking at the weapons placement on the Musai it very much is similar to Klingon Birds or Prey or the Empire's Star Destroyer, front line attack ships design to go in one direction forward.
Love your production history videos they are quite in depth and detailed. Additionally covering ships and other non ms units is a refreshing change of pace.
Musai is probably one of the best legacy one year war design that Neo Zeon developed, and they were paying tribute to their old glory and future prowess.
The musai was developed well main reason the catapult or exits were put on the back was for protecting the mobile suits and protecting the inner part of the ship that gets exposed.If it had been done by the front a missile or energy attack could sink the whole ship very quickly and ships wouldn't get those mobile suits out in time. Look at the federation ships in some space battles as well the venator class starwars ship has the hangar on the front and if you look at videos explaining the weakness of the venator you'll understand why Zeong put the hangars on the back
God, I just realized, looking at the old Musais... they're upside down **Enterprises** from **Star Trek** ! They have the hangar in the back because that's where the shuttle bay was!
Probably already said, but didn't Origins show that the Musai was made from a passenger liner? Also, good reason for the pylons holding the two engines is to get them farther from the crew areas for radiation or heat reasons. That's probably why later models had radiator fins.
The Endra class became my favorite ship in all of Gundam when I realized it could enter atmosphere in Ghiren's Greed Menace of Axis V. Having a ship that can casually land on earth and support mobile suits with its hangers is an absolute godsend to Zeon in that game, after watching bitterly the White Base and other Feddie ships scoot up and down gravity wells all they want. It's a total power trip not having to rely on dedicated transport ships for that duty and actually getting to use some goddamn -warships- in atmo.
I think the rear facing catapult is a good idea in theory. Ideally the front facing the enemy. Like an armored personnel carrier, you would want troops to exit under protection and not into the firing line directly.
Rear facing launch bays actually make sense, for while UC is usually portrayed as naval combat in space, if we switch to proper orbital mechanics, a ship would spent as much time decelerating as going forward. Especially when closing to an enemy. Thus, actually it's the positioning of artillery that makes little sense.
Gundam pays some lip service to Newtonian maneuvers occasionally (especially when suits are moving slow) and while ship combat is never seen like this, a Musai decelerating to engage with a battle space would be able to just…drop mobile suits out the back at a rather rapid velocity. Definitely wasn’t the intention but it’s *a* interpretation.
In the origin manga it was shown that the musai class started its life as a civilian cruise liner, with zeon developing their military ships under the guise of civilian projects.. kinda like the nazis did it with their tanks in the interwar period before WW2
@@sovietdominion Yup, for the tanks you had stuff like the "Neubaufahrzeug" (New construction vehicle) or the "Leicht Traktor" (light traktor) for the nazis. Considering that Zeon couldnt let the EF know they where secretly building up an army i guess having some "civilian" versions was an excellent way of procuring some flight data and train prospective crews for the actual military variant
Maybe the reason for the rear facing catapults was for safety, the hangar would be open to fire at if it was front facing (which would be every time the music got in combat), and it provides the ms with some cover as they push forward
i would imagine that launching from the rear of the ship would be more for the suits protection. launching from the front one lucky shot and you have every mobel suit in the hanger damaged along with the ship being damaged if not destroyed. also in space you would just need to do short bursts of thrusters to move so fual wouldn't really be a problem in a rear launch hanger.
Wouldve also loved to have seen the Origin and Thunderbolt versions get featured in this, atleast have a dedicated section at the end, but I understand why Kakarot wouldnt want to showcase that yet.
Launching from the rear allows for a defensive screen provided by the carrier. Ensuring your launch bay was protected was key to mobile suit deployment
I respect your detailed interpretation of each spacecraft. I’m surprised by the amount of thought is put in regarding to logical aspect of both the environmental elements and the engineering design of each ships.
What about that civilian musai like ship from Origin? The one that Fed ship crashed into that provided the trigger for the Dawn Rebellion. Origin OVA ep 3.
Is there any story or history for Char's Falmel/Falmer after he descends to Earth? Cuz it's entirely forgotten about in the show after that point. Especially since lore commonly points out it's a plus ultra extra special Musai.
I would love more development history stuff for the fleet/ship angle of things. Its already what I consider to be a highly underrated aspect of the franchise.
odds are the reason the Musai Kai's were based on the original design was that they literally were the same ships as those used earlier in the war, just given overhauls and upgrades. i could easily see the treaty at the end of the war that reverted the Principality back to the Republic preventing the Republic from building new ships, and instead just saddled them with the oldest ships left in the principality's fleet. (with the federation scrapping the rest). not unlike the way that the Treaty of Versailles scrapped most of the Imperial German navy at the end of WW1, leaving the new Weimar republic's Reichsmarine with a small collection of pre-dreadnought battleships and cruisers that had been several generations out of date before WW1 had even begun. the upgrades producing the Musai Kai would represent the Republic of Zeon's attempts to keep them viable and perform service life extensions on a group of ships that were increasingly obsolete.
Lengthy Opinion below, reader descretion advised. Probably has been mentioned a few times, but in The Origin, Theres a civilian freighter called an Arcana class if i recall right, that shares an uncanny resemblance to the Musai, just flipped upside down. If true it would make things interesting and explain a few oddities. The cargo bay in the rear being switched to a MS hangar, The wide open area where external cargo could be fitted becoming an area for re-entry vehicles and fuel pods. The fact the Arcana was a widely available commercial freighter that could be retrofitted and pressed into combat shares similarities to our world's history where civilian cargo ships were converted into light combat support ships or ambush ships for convoy protection such as in the 1st and 2nd world war. Which could also explain some of the performance issues as a predefined hull would limit what size of powerplants could be installed to power the weapons, which much like the ww1/2 cargo ship adhoc addons, would further explain the less than stellar results the Musai achieved. Relating back to power again, with power hungry weapons, it is likely not enough could be diverted to obtaining precise firing solutions to make the range more effective, much less being able to brace recoil from the mega particle cannons, which considering where they were mounted could have the consequence of the recoil throwing off subsequent shots. This is something relatable also to the world wars where very rarely were there ever naval rifles greater than 5inch installed on the various civilian cargo ships such as the liberty ships, as even something of 155mm could risk rolling the ship over in rough sees, and at lease one test of a 12" rifle had cracked a liberty's hull. Then again it was determined a cargo ship wouldn't be expected to slug it out with a cruiser but rather a destroyer or submarine, deemed too costly and unnecessary for the targets it was expected to encounter. Anyways that was just my speculation on the Musai, a civilian freighter pressed into the war with its ease of obtaining and modification and the time it would take.
The rear-facing hangar is most likely to protect the MSs as they’re deploying. Do they have to spend a little more time and burn some extra fuel moving to the front? Yes, but that’s still better than being blown to smithereens before you even get the chance to fully launch. Honestly, I find it weird how no one’s ever managed to send a missile directly into the hangar of one of the main “hero ships” in the Gundam series. They’re big openings that hold the ships’ greatest military assets and usually lead really deep into the interior of the ship itself.
Gundam is an universe where 60ft gigantic bipedal robots does not get immediately shot down by any sort of decent close-in defense due to the minovsky particles or what have you that interferes with targeting. If enemy ships far away is accurate enough actually hit open hangars in any situation other than "three lottery jackpot in a row" super lucky statistically impossible event, the targeting capability of the enemy can also reliably shoot down any incoming giant robots.
5:04 Is it possible the Federation realized this into the late war stages as in OVA's like Gundam Thunderbolt December Sky Io when piloting the Full Armor Gundam can be seen striking the Musai's two engines before targetting other important parts of the ship.
i think that the hangar in the back is because the ship was created as a fast cargo vessel that can be converted to a light cruiser and the movie suit deployment was a later idea.
The ships are as cool as the mobile suits for me. My favorite is the Zanzibar and Alexandria from Zeta. But always loved the Musai Design. I specifically have find memories of playing Federation vs Zeon on PS2 and defending them in Rick Doms from relentless waves of GM and gun cannons and also destroying them as GMs and Guncannons playing as Feddie. The best looking Musai were definitely in 0080 though the chimera corps ones.
I do want to point out the Final type appears to have A LOT more radiator fins, letting it bleed heat far better. There's a lot to its design that indicates that it's far better at handling heat issues with its power plant, guns, and mobile suits. It looks substantially faster too, with those huge fins on the engines. It must be able to burn much longer than the old Musais could. The Final Type seems designed as a rapid response all-rounder which can provide mobile suits and support fire where they're needed, when they're needed, with far fewer ships and suits than would normally be required otherwise. . . . It's honestly a really great design, visually. I just wish they'd actually discuss it more in the franchise to let us know what it's actually doing to make it so appealing as a final choice to try and change the tide. I also want to point out the Musai, much like so many other Zeon ships, appears to be based on a cargo ship. I think this is all supposed to be a call back to how Inter-War Germany had developed some ships to be easily converted into warships due to the restrictions on warship tonnage that'd been placed on them following their loss of WW1. The Arcana-Class in Gundam Origin is really the only indication we have of this, but it makes sense that their most common ships were all rapidly transitioned civilian vessels. The Arcana, if you missed it, is a transport vessel which appears to be an all-white, weaponless, upside down Musai which appears in the early episodes of Origin. Which.. I mean it's Origin so who knows how compatible the Arcana is with the lore of the original franchise, really, but to my knowledge it's the best we've got and a great call back to the events that transpired in real life.
Having catapults facing the rear isn't a bad idea. If the enemy has the chance to fire first they could target the launch bays and destroy a lot of battlesuits, fighters etc. The only down side is like you said, course correction and time but those factors are offset by safety of the crews
Another advantage of having an offset nuclear engine is that you do not need to shield the main ship body and living quarters from the engine's radiation, potentially reducing its weight and size (this is due to the inverse square law, which means that if you double the distance from the source of radiation, the strength of the radiation is halved)
musaka is the right direction adapting more federation design and mixed it with zeon enginering making it a trully unique design that has both of two side pros
Love the mobile suit development history series and hope you keep it going for a longgggg time. Have you considered doing a MSG video game history series with some gameplay before?
Nice work now for the reason I thought the hangers face backwards was to protect the Mobile Suits when being sent out from a frontal attack as most fights seem to to be head on or from the side, it also protected the hanger too. Because to me an open hatch faceing full of MS that may not be ready is a rocket attack going in there.
Pretty sure the first run of Musai were converted from the Arcana-class civilian transports? Also the 3 exhaust ports match the Arcana's design, reinforcing the idea that they were converted, and other Musai had the 2 vent ports
Once I noticed the Musai's essentially an upside down Enterprise, I told myself spacenoid engineers' souls aren't held down by gravity, but they are held down by pop culture.
Funnily, in the origin movie there is a ship that's claimed to be passenger ship but is actually an upside down Musai. It was an attempt to hide the military development of the ship class, so the make it upside down to fool the federation.
@@gregorysaugustine5236 Very good Versailles evasion reference.
Even funnier the original enterprise was supposed to be filmed saucer down but they thought it looked better as we see it on tv and in the films
Funny thing, after reading this comment, it reminded me of a Star Trek ship fan design I thought of that had a similar layout to the Musai except the nacelles were each smaller nacelles built to each make up a singular "cluster nacelle" design.
Holy crap you are right
I think the most interesting part of this video is when I realized that the musai class is essentially the same design aesthetic of the enterprise from Star Trek just flipped upside down.
That’s so true! I didnt even notice!
i cant unsee it
🤯
dang!!
I thought that exact thing while I was watching the video, then I looked down in the comments and saw I was not alone in noticing that
Fun thing about the rear-launching catapult decks. They'd actually give the Musai a little boost in speed each time one launches.
To be fair I think some can argue that the initial reason why mobile suits were launched from the rear is so to give the mobile suits a little extra protection send arguably them launching is where they're at they're most vulnerable
It's like how most armored personnel carriers the troops come out from the rear of the vehicle because the vehicle can offer more protection do I guess in the Musashi case it probably wasn't sturdy enough to offer that extra cover
OYW variations could be explained by different shipyards/refit yards beginning production outside the dark colony.
In regards to the rear facing hanger, it could also be that they were thinking about safer launches, sure you have a little less propellant for combat but your not getting shot down if the ship is engaging in ship to ship warfare.
Yeah I would also add that getting your hangar hit by say, a missile or a particle cannon while it's opened would probably lead to losing the entire ship.
@@deatscart this too
Also if you have two fleets facing off against each other in a line of battle it's not actually that big a detriment to be launched parallel relative to the enemy line. It means you aren't traveling directly towards the enemy and therefore can safely form up with your squadron before heading in. This makes sense given that line ahead was the standard formation at the start of the OYW and it was only afterwards when mobile suits came to dominate combat that the ships started staying far back outside of combat.
Exactly this. It's pretty logical even. When the Musai and Zaku were developed, mobile suit combat was new and its dominance was not yet securely proven. Ship-to-ship combat was still the norm, so they put the catapult facing backwards so the hangar and mobile suits were shielded by the mass of the ship and the guns were facing the enemy line.
It what you would see in an AFV (Armored Fighting Vehicle), the Zaku mobile suits leave out the back while the ship acts as a physical barrier with fire support.
Yes! More development history!!!
Classic Kakarot197 W
Excellent Kakarot197 W
Donald Trump’s space force could use these fo shizzle
Kakarot W Strikes Back! Again!
Since the Sleeves/3rd Neo Zeon and Musai-Kai were mentioned in the video, it’s worth mentioning that along with the Endra and Musaka, they also had a Musai-Kai at Palau. It was the ship whose bridge was crushed then exploded as the asteroids were sandwiching all the ships in the dock😅
9:20 I think it's also because they forgot to draw that extra turret or removed it due to cost cutting measures buy the studio and all haha
I do think that the Origin version of the Musai is the one that makes the most sense as the hanger is integrated in the front hull, behind the komusai. Because of this, there is ALOT more space to the point that it can carry 7 Zakus (in origin version of events, 6 normal zakus infiltrated the Noa colony + Chars Zaku) which is honestly way too much for the Musai.
For the later classes being also referred to as "musai" I feel that is probably because to the people of Zeon the musai class was a significant change a bit like how a lot of battleships in the build up to WW1 ended up being "Dreadnought"s as they followed similar design principles to the Dreadnought class
Most likely the hungar in the back of the ship was to keep them from being easily attaced
also in Gundam The Origin the Musai must have been derived from a civilian ship but that design looks like a Musai but flipped upside-down.
Was probably always intended as a military vessel, secret development.
And that make more sense as a civilian cargo ship mass converted in armed cruise-carrier.
Pluss Papua are just double-hull musai!
I think the rearward facing catapults could have been intended to keep the mobile suits out of enemy fire when they're launching, and thus most vulnerable
Yeah, I figure the idea behind the catapult is less "give the MS a headstart in getting to their enemy" and more "get them away from the launching ship and maneuvering ASAP potentially while under fire" in the Musai's case.
My personal speculation on why the Musai is launched from behind while the main guns were on the front seems to stem from 2 reasons:
-Mobile suits were designed to be a CIWS first and would be best launched from behind to deter the obvious weakness of a Musai which is the lack of armament behind the ship
-Mobile suits launched from behind a ship had less chances of being hit during the take off phase and was more likely to dodge an attack as it maneuvered its formation towards the front of the ship.
I think the early Musai had rear-facing launch bays, because they are a major weakpoint. Should a missile find its way inside, it is pretty likely that most of the suits and personnel would be lost, and I assume the interior isn't armored. That kind of gaping wound would probably be fatal for the ship.
Real-world APCs usually deploy troops from the rear. Part of this is because the vehicle itself can serve as a shield while they deploy, but also prevents the critical blow that I had mentioned.
Considering how large the Mobile Suits had become over the years, Neo Zeon really should have had an Always Bulky Musai III.
On the RF Musai. The whole RF Series just got retconed by F90FF that there are two generations of them, the first batch are those that appear in the old F90 manga (most were identified as original OYW MS back then), and the later batch are the one appear in design series/Formular War 0122 (the RF Series we know).
Basically, the 1st generation RF Series are almost identical to their OYW counterparts (with some oddities like Zaku II armed with Hambrabi's sea serpent, or Gyan has heat rod) but internally they're overhauled according to Universal Standard for easy of maintenance. Their old appearance is purely for symbolism and morale boost (something the Mars Zeon do since the First Neo Zeon War with their version of Zaku III, Dom III, and Gelgoog III. In other words, a 1st generation RF Series look just like the old crafts, but their hardware are fully compatible with newer equipments including those used by the Federation.
There is no official words on RF Musai, but I guess that this also applies to it.
It's kinda funny that Zeon themselves couldn't really think of a warship design that would be effective in countering Mobile Suit warfare even while acknowledging the Federation would probably be producing their own eventually and having years of unmitigated Mobile Suit technological developement to think of something. The Musai design itself was as vulnerable as the Salamis-class to Mobile Suits at the end of the day, probably moreso with that wider profile from the engines.
the salamis actaull has AA gunns where the Mussai is just wide open
I would imagine the reason the Musai lacked close range weapons would because if the main hanger could hold a standard complement of 4 Zakus but the standard Zeon squads especially Zakus was 3 the 4th could be held back either as cover for the ship or back for the squad. Also given the Komusai was designed for atmospheric re entry but was still outfitted with a pain of vulcan guns this could be used as additional backup if an enemy unit got to close. As far as why the hanger door to launch mobile suits was in the back rather the front I would say the mega partical cannon placement had something to do with it. The suits could be launched from the rear while the mega cannons fired to the front and not risk hitting their allied suits. And when looking at the weapons placement on the Musai it very much is similar to Klingon Birds or Prey or the Empire's Star Destroyer, front line attack ships design to go in one direction forward.
Love your production history videos they are quite in depth and detailed. Additionally covering ships and other non ms units is a refreshing change of pace.
I really like the Musaka class: its big radiators look cool and the tilted catapults are striking.
Musai is probably one of the best legacy one year war design that Neo Zeon developed, and they were paying tribute to their old glory and future prowess.
I always loved this ship design.
The musai was developed well main reason the catapult or exits were put on the back was for protecting the mobile suits and protecting the inner part of the ship that gets exposed.If it had been done by the front a missile or energy attack could sink the whole ship very quickly and ships wouldn't get those mobile suits out in time. Look at the federation ships in some space battles as well the venator class starwars ship has the hangar on the front and if you look at videos explaining the weakness of the venator you'll understand why Zeong put the hangars on the back
God, I just realized, looking at the old Musais... they're upside down **Enterprises** from **Star Trek** ! They have the hangar in the back because that's where the shuttle bay was!
Probably already said, but didn't Origins show that the Musai was made from a passenger liner?
Also, good reason for the pylons holding the two engines is to get them farther from the crew areas for radiation or heat reasons. That's probably why later models had radiator fins.
In the origin continuiy yes.
The Endra class became my favorite ship in all of Gundam when I realized it could enter atmosphere in Ghiren's Greed Menace of Axis V. Having a ship that can casually land on earth and support mobile suits with its hangers is an absolute godsend to Zeon in that game, after watching bitterly the White Base and other Feddie ships scoot up and down gravity wells all they want. It's a total power trip not having to rely on dedicated transport ships for that duty and actually getting to use some goddamn -warships- in atmo.
I think the rear facing catapult is a good idea in theory. Ideally the front facing the enemy. Like an armored personnel carrier, you would want troops to exit under protection and not into the firing line directly.
Happy to see the return of development history!
I'm happy to see another ship development history.
The first video of yours I watched was your coverage on the Salamis class.
Rear facing launch bays actually make sense, for while UC is usually portrayed as naval combat in space, if we switch to proper orbital mechanics, a ship would spent as much time decelerating as going forward. Especially when closing to an enemy. Thus, actually it's the positioning of artillery that makes little sense.
Gundam pays some lip service to Newtonian maneuvers occasionally (especially when suits are moving slow) and while ship combat is never seen like this, a Musai decelerating to engage with a battle space would be able to just…drop mobile suits out the back at a rather rapid velocity. Definitely wasn’t the intention but it’s *a* interpretation.
In the origin manga it was shown that the musai class started its life as a civilian cruise liner, with zeon developing their military ships under the guise of civilian projects.. kinda like the nazis did it with their tanks in the interwar period before WW2
aswell as planes, many atleast on was labeled as a "postal" plan
@@sovietdominion Yup, for the tanks you had stuff like the "Neubaufahrzeug" (New construction vehicle) or the "Leicht Traktor" (light traktor) for the nazis.
Considering that Zeon couldnt let the EF know they where secretly building up an army i guess having some "civilian" versions was an excellent way of procuring some flight data and train prospective crews for the actual military variant
Maybe the reason for the rear facing catapults was for safety, the hangar would be open to fire at if it was front facing (which would be every time the music got in combat), and it provides the ms with some cover as they push forward
This, And vice versa if for example the Musai is damaged and is retreating, the MS could easily intercept pursuers.
basicly this. Combat vehicles do the same.
i would imagine that launching from the rear of the ship would be more for the suits protection. launching from the front one lucky shot and you have every mobel suit in the hanger damaged along with the ship being damaged if not destroyed. also in space you would just need to do short bursts of thrusters to move so fual wouldn't really be a problem in a rear launch hanger.
Wouldve also loved to have seen the Origin and Thunderbolt versions get featured in this, atleast have a dedicated section at the end, but I understand why Kakarot wouldnt want to showcase that yet.
Launching from the rear allows for a defensive screen provided by the carrier. Ensuring your launch bay was protected was key to mobile suit deployment
One thing i love The Origin is the focus on EF battleship vs Zeon ships and Zaku
Missed opportunity for one of the names to be the “Muskai” for the upgraded one
I respect your detailed interpretation of each spacecraft. I’m surprised by the amount of thought is put in regarding to logical aspect of both the environmental elements and the engineering design of each ships.
What about that civilian musai like ship from Origin? The one that Fed ship crashed into that provided the trigger for the Dawn Rebellion. Origin OVA ep 3.
That's called the Arcana class Civilian Transport Ship. I was wanting something about it also in or out of universe.
Is there any story or history for Char's Falmel/Falmer after he descends to Earth? Cuz it's entirely forgotten about in the show after that point. Especially since lore commonly points out it's a plus ultra extra special Musai.
Very interesting! Thanks for uploading!
Dev History vid! Last time I was this early, the Zudah hasn't blown itself up yet.
I would love more development history stuff for the fleet/ship angle of things. Its already what I consider to be a highly underrated aspect of the franchise.
odds are the reason the Musai Kai's were based on the original design was that they literally were the same ships as those used earlier in the war, just given overhauls and upgrades. i could easily see the treaty at the end of the war that reverted the Principality back to the Republic preventing the Republic from building new ships, and instead just saddled them with the oldest ships left in the principality's fleet. (with the federation scrapping the rest). not unlike the way that the Treaty of Versailles scrapped most of the Imperial German navy at the end of WW1, leaving the new Weimar republic's Reichsmarine with a small collection of pre-dreadnought battleships and cruisers that had been several generations out of date before WW1 had even begun.
the upgrades producing the Musai Kai would represent the Republic of Zeon's attempts to keep them viable and perform service life extensions on a group of ships that were increasingly obsolete.
Lengthy Opinion below, reader descretion advised.
Probably has been mentioned a few times, but in The Origin, Theres a civilian freighter called an Arcana class if i recall right, that shares an uncanny resemblance to the Musai, just flipped upside down.
If true it would make things interesting and explain a few oddities.
The cargo bay in the rear being switched to a MS hangar, The wide open area where external cargo could be fitted becoming an area for re-entry vehicles and fuel pods.
The fact the Arcana was a widely available commercial freighter that could be retrofitted and pressed into combat shares similarities to our world's history where civilian cargo ships were converted into light combat support ships or ambush ships for convoy protection such as in the 1st and 2nd world war. Which could also explain some of the performance issues as a predefined hull would limit what size of powerplants could be installed to power the weapons, which much like the ww1/2 cargo ship adhoc addons, would further explain the less than stellar results the Musai achieved. Relating back to power again, with power hungry weapons, it is likely not enough could be diverted to obtaining precise firing solutions to make the range more effective, much less being able to brace recoil from the mega particle cannons, which considering where they were mounted could have the consequence of the recoil throwing off subsequent shots. This is something relatable also to the world wars where very rarely were there ever naval rifles greater than 5inch installed on the various civilian cargo ships such as the liberty ships, as even something of 155mm could risk rolling the ship over in rough sees, and at lease one test of a 12" rifle had cracked a liberty's hull. Then again it was determined a cargo ship wouldn't be expected to slug it out with a cruiser but rather a destroyer or submarine, deemed too costly and unnecessary for the targets it was expected to encounter.
Anyways that was just my speculation on the Musai, a civilian freighter pressed into the war with its ease of obtaining and modification and the time it would take.
I hope we get to see more warship videos, like the Chivvay, Zanzibar, and others!
They don't get as much love as mobile suits.
I complete agree. Especially the variant in 0080 that Chivvay was awesome.
You're right Kakarot197. I haven't thought enough about ship design.
The rear-facing hangar is most likely to protect the MSs as they’re deploying. Do they have to spend a little more time and burn some extra fuel moving to the front? Yes, but that’s still better than being blown to smithereens before you even get the chance to fully launch. Honestly, I find it weird how no one’s ever managed to send a missile directly into the hangar of one of the main “hero ships” in the Gundam series. They’re big openings that hold the ships’ greatest military assets and usually lead really deep into the interior of the ship itself.
Gundam is an universe where 60ft gigantic bipedal robots does not get immediately shot down by any sort of decent close-in defense due to the minovsky particles or what have you that interferes with targeting. If enemy ships far away is accurate enough actually hit open hangars in any situation other than "three lottery jackpot in a row" super lucky statistically impossible event, the targeting capability of the enemy can also reliably shoot down any incoming giant robots.
You forgot the best ship inspired by the Musai, the Big Zaura from double fake
Thank you so much for this detailed video
5:04 Is it possible the Federation realized this into the late war stages as in OVA's like Gundam Thunderbolt December Sky Io when piloting the Full Armor Gundam can be seen striking the Musai's two engines before targetting other important parts of the ship.
I love Zeon ship designs and the Musai is a favorite.
i think that the hangar in the back is because the ship was created as a fast cargo vessel that can be converted to a light cruiser and the movie suit deployment was a later idea.
I'm getting ready to run a Gundam themed rpg and this has been invaluable. Thank you!
Launching out of the back of the Musai could have been to let mobile suits have some cover from enemy fire as they launch.
Ah yes, another new video from the king himself
Zeon : trying to refine Musai's design throughout its service
Federation : You know what Salamis, you are perfect, just the way you are
Just discovered your page.. finally a place I can get my Zeon fix!
The ships are as cool as the mobile suits for me. My favorite is the Zanzibar and Alexandria from Zeta. But always loved the Musai Design. I specifically have find memories of playing Federation vs Zeon on PS2 and defending them in Rick Doms from relentless waves of GM and gun cannons and also destroying them as GMs and Guncannons playing as Feddie. The best looking Musai were definitely in 0080 though the chimera corps ones.
I do want to point out the Final type appears to have A LOT more radiator fins, letting it bleed heat far better. There's a lot to its design that indicates that it's far better at handling heat issues with its power plant, guns, and mobile suits. It looks substantially faster too, with those huge fins on the engines. It must be able to burn much longer than the old Musais could. The Final Type seems designed as a rapid response all-rounder which can provide mobile suits and support fire where they're needed, when they're needed, with far fewer ships and suits than would normally be required otherwise. . . . It's honestly a really great design, visually. I just wish they'd actually discuss it more in the franchise to let us know what it's actually doing to make it so appealing as a final choice to try and change the tide.
I also want to point out the Musai, much like so many other Zeon ships, appears to be based on a cargo ship. I think this is all supposed to be a call back to how Inter-War Germany had developed some ships to be easily converted into warships due to the restrictions on warship tonnage that'd been placed on them following their loss of WW1. The Arcana-Class in Gundam Origin is really the only indication we have of this, but it makes sense that their most common ships were all rapidly transitioned civilian vessels. The Arcana, if you missed it, is a transport vessel which appears to be an all-white, weaponless, upside down Musai which appears in the early episodes of Origin. Which.. I mean it's Origin so who knows how compatible the Arcana is with the lore of the original franchise, really, but to my knowledge it's the best we've got and a great call back to the events that transpired in real life.
Having catapults facing the rear isn't a bad idea. If the enemy has the chance to fire first they could target the launch bays and destroy a lot of battlesuits, fighters etc. The only down side is like you said, course correction and time but those factors are offset by safety of the crews
When I was a kid and first saw Gundam on TV, I thought they were called Moose-Eyes. lol
I never realized that the Chive/Chibe was actually older. I thought it was the more expensive larger warship and that's why there weren't as many. lol
The interesting thing about Musai somehow looked like an inverted Enterprise still make funs to me.
Another advantage of having an offset nuclear engine is that you do not need to shield the main ship body and living quarters from the engine's radiation, potentially reducing its weight and size (this is due to the inverse square law, which means that if you double the distance from the source of radiation, the strength of the radiation is halved)
Love these videos. Thank you for doing more.
musaka is the right direction adapting more federation design and mixed it with zeon enginering making it a trully unique design that has both of two side pros
I thought we see them as civilian ships but upside down in the Origin?
Love the mobile suit development history series and hope you keep it going for a longgggg time. Have you considered doing a MSG video game history series with some gameplay before?
I love your gundam videos. Have you done a video on the Rewloola-class ships?
What about the version that did a 180 and was a passenger spacecraft for civilians?
Reminds of how early bomber planes were just passenger planes but without people.
@@drvinylscratch1936 thats a origins design and kakarot seems to only cover main line UC when he does UC development histories
Nice work now for the reason I thought the hangers face backwards was to protect the Mobile Suits when being sent out from a frontal attack as most fights seem to to be head on or from the side, it also protected the hanger too. Because to me an open hatch faceing full of MS that may not be ready is a rocket attack going in there.
Pretty sure the first run of Musai were converted from the Arcana-class civilian transports? Also the 3 exhaust ports match the Arcana's design, reinforcing the idea that they were converted, and other Musai had the 2 vent ports
Ok, am I the ONLY one who sees how SIMILAR a Musai is to a high heeled shoe??
Given the huge amounts of MS tha clashed in the big battles...the carrying capacity is surprisingly tiny.
Question: What would have happened if Kira got the Justice instead of the Freedom?
Hope to see more of these ship development videos
First! And glad to see another development video! You always make these videos so interesting and cool. Keep on keeping on!
Cannot wait till you get around to the Dolos Class heavy carrier.
Still waiting for part 2 of the mquve story but this is great
Making the launch bay rear facing is to protect launching MS from enemy fire.
It would make sense if the reason the Musai had a rear facing hanger bay was so that zakus wouldn't be exposed to warship fire when deploying.
Gundam ships are my favorites in all sci-fi
Id imadgin that the point of the rear facing hanger, was to not put an exposed hanger door in the front which will most likely be taking fire.
This series is great
Has anyone ever looked at a musai class upside down.
Its got a streamline curved hull for beam deflection. Please ignore them blowing up like popcorn.
Is it possible to do one on the Argama? Or Earth Federation ships in general? Would love that!
when i was younger and did not know it was translated from japanese i thought they were saying Moose-Eye haha
And i thought the Federation was stubborn with their Salamis
You fill me with information and then tease me with more ships on the way. You, sir, are delightfully cruel and I tip my hat to you.
Given that fighters saw less and less use as mobile suits saw more use, the lack of traditional AA on the Endras makes some sense.
Also anyone ever notice the origin civilian version (or simply an upside down musai) looks like an oddly shaped uss enterprise?
If I had that ship, I would load Wing Gundam, Victory Gundam, Blue Destiny, Brave Commander test type, and Tallgeese.
The cross bone ship looked like a mussai too
Would love a rick dias video just asking
I've been waiting for this!!!!