Fantastic video! Whenever people ask me whether I prefer "designer" or "niche", I have to say that I prefer fragrances from a time before this dichotomy even made sense. And you are right: most of the very old perfumes smell so different that our noses have no nostalgic connection to it, which makes them smell truly timeless and by no means dated. One remark: Knize is pronounced k-niche-eh. Greetings from Germany!
What a cracking set guys! So many superb releases here. Very glad I picked up Le 3 Homme when I did. And I still use Colonia as a pick me up in the morning. Such a wonderfully balanced fragrance. Caron Pour un Homme - an icon. One of my suits still smells of it because I used to spray down my jacket before putting it on (no more than 2 sprays of course) as an adjunct to the gentleman's scent I would wear underneath. That way, when I took the jacket off, my shirt would sometimes imbue a hint of that superb vanilla to pair with the citrus aromatic/fougere radiating from my skin. A sneaky way to layer! Loved the discussion on each and every one.
I agree with what you say about all the fragrances in this video that I know. All except Platinum Egoiste. I like Platinum Egoiste. I like its freshness and the barbershop feel I get from it
Happy Easter! Thank you both for staying connected during this time. Your videos are quite refreshing. As you announced each fragrance, I found myself exclaiming, "Yes!" You were working your way through my collection with fragrances like Le Troisieme Homme, Azzaro Pour Homme and Knize Ten. I recently acquired vintage bottles of Pour Un Homme de Caron and Polo Green, which Dan mentioned, and it's worth learning how to find them. Jo, you mentioned how these fragrances take you back in time, and that's how I reacted when I smelled Youth Dew, for example. It took me back to my childhood. Similarly, fragrances like Polo Green or Drakkar take me back to my college days, especially when I find a vintage formulation. Dan, you have me looking for a bottle of Grey Flannel, which I haven't worn in years. Truthfully, every fragrance you mentioned in this video is worth trying. The best point that you rightly revisited in this video, is that many of these fragrances do not carry a high price tag. I am quite happy that I followed the advice "learn to appreciate the classics" and am looking forward to your next installment of fragrances which were inspired by vintage fragrances. Thanks again!
Dr. Hauschka makes a body lotion 100% natural ingredients with Sandalwood and Lavender in it and this smells so incredibly creamy and gourmand it's heavenly. It might also have some vanilla in it. This combination of Lavender, Sandalwood and Vanilla is amazing. I will create a perfume oil with that combination. I had already been mixing all natural essential oils together with this combination but I had added many other notes into it as well which was also very amazing. But the more I added to the oil the more it ventured away from the initial creamy scent. It became more oriental because I added Styrax and Benzoin into it which was great too. There are so many amazing combinations one can make. Endlessly many combinations and percentages. All of those ingredients end up costing a Lot of money haha. But it's worth it to enjoy making combinations. So far I am now using the essential oils to make face and body creams. I have already made amazing creams completely water free which are healing for skin and the entire system.
Love,love love Chypre fragrances! Bought a sample size of Chypre Mousse for that reason and at first a bit wielded out, but kept smelling, applying etc. and very quickly fell in love. Definitely the most unique Chypre in my collection!
Speaking of vintage, I just bought vintage No19 edt 50ml and Givenchy 3 pure Parfum, edt 50ml and soap for £30, can’t wait for them to arrive, I hope they’re still good, bought them off a Fella in a FB group so fingers crossed, great video guys.
Another wonderful segment gentlemen. Thank you for upholding standards of class with your great content, as well as respectable attire. I really wanted to love New York Intense, and just couldn't take the lady's handbag powdery note (presumably Orris) that I found pretty dominant in it.
Great list. I'd never heard anyone rate Aspen, must check it out (doesn't hurt that it's ridiculously cheap). Lovely to see Le 3ème Homme praised so highly; gorgeous masculines don't get their due (it strikes me that Amber Cologne is something of a successor in spirit) . Only, I'd throw in Aramis 900 and Havana. But that's the fun of lists...
What a great list! Luckily I have quite a few on here. If you like "Youth Dew" I really recommend "Cinnabar" which I think is slightly better. Also, I would have put "Tabac" on this list!
Pine Rocks I tried Cinnabar the other day and it has a great opening but it dried down to a real old lady fragrance, not for me, I took it off my wish list.
So many great ones. Some under the radar ones I recommend are the early Lancôme’s like Balafre, Sagamore, Trophee all stunning. The early Jill Sanders and Donna Karans are well worth checking out too.
I love Grey Flannel, and actually, the initial blast is one of my favourite things about the fragrance. I just wish it stayed around longer. It's so cheap too.
Another great video. I’ll add Bandit. My favourite. I got 100ml of the current Robert Piguet for about £60 and it measures up tremendously well to the real deal from the 50s (which is the most outrageously expensive juice I own and a treasure). I have no idea why this was classed as a feminine chypre then but it surely isn’t now. It’s dark, leathery, dirty and pulls a 38 ought six from a trench-coat on an Aventus-wearing wannabe .
Great video and loved the comment at 14:39. Totally agree with you. Also, Grey Flannel is a beautiful fragrance that at one point it was ridiculed by the fragrance community. Reviewers were making fun of it on how bad it smells. No further comment:))) SOTD Zino by Davidoff.
Hope you both had a great easter and all is well with you and yours 🙏 I'm so ready for this list, I might spray on my Shalimar from the 60's and watch along.
Stumbled on your channel. Beautiful video. I have a perfume bottle in the shape of a smoking pipe with a bearded man's face carved in the brown glass at one side. This has been lying at home for decades now, its presumably men's cologne....smells awesome. No name etched anywhere so not sure about the brand.
Wonderful list, gentlemen! I've definitely got some new ones to look into. I was also wondering what you think about Opium Pour Homme by YSL? I wish I could get a sniff of the vintage edp.
I tried all the 79s and 80s ones back in the day, and turned them down in favour of Eau Sauvage, then I found Cacharel. To heck with notes, dry down, complexity (or not) and all the other jargon, the original Cacharel is the scent I would kill for today. I dithered over Polo for years, but never bit, it was just too sporty? to risk. Great video.
yes! 3eme Homme! THE perfect gentlemen scent. tested some recently to find a bday present for my husband, amongst which also Caron Homme and Yatagan, Creed Bois de Portugal, New York Intense, MFK Pluriel Masculin, Hugh Parson's, Nuit de Megève and Azemour les Orangers, and 3eme Homme beat them all.
Wonderful retrospective. Have you ever tried Van Cleef & Arpels Pour Homme? I tried a vintage sample yesterday and wow, quite stunning and highly recommended - deep, dark, austere rose and leather. Also, any thoughts on vintage vs. modern Le 3eme Homme and if the modern has lost anything significant? Cheers.
Just bought azzaro Pour Homme and i have paco Rabanne Pour Homme ( one of my absolute favorite Scents of all time now!!! Its so me) and Yes i Agree that azzaro represents a benchmark, where Paco pour homme is what I imagine the barbershops from the 50s smelled like and I’m from Norway and a tv geek so Paco pour homme also smells Norway in 73 I feel, very conservative clean , BUT then 1978 comes and the 70s are truly here I think in azzaro pour homme, it’s this spicy exotic barber smell with that anis and oh, it’s stylish, but with a kick!
I’ve watched this video many times. Thank you. Would I be correct in saying that I don’t think you did the video of modern fragrances that are vintage inspired? This would be right up my alley!
If you're in the market for a really animalic Bal a Versailles, you might want to try the eau de cologne. I have the extrait too and agree that it is not as animalic as I might have expected. Still absolutely gorgeous! I've also sampled the edc though, and that was truly carnal! I want it! Otherwise my favorite vintage perfumes include Jean Patou Moment Supreme, Tabu, Opium, Charles Jourdan Un Homme, Givenchy Gentleman, Paco Rabanne Tenere, Kouros, and a bunch of Guerlains. :)
Keep doing what you're doing gentlemen. I bought Sex Appeal purely on your recommendation and I can concur that this is a really beautiful fragrance at a ridiculously cheap price.
Cool. I have eight of them (and not angel btw because I’m a girl😂). Bloody loved this. I might have put in an Hermès myself perhaps but top list. More please! Mwah 🤗
I don’t want to smell like an old man so which ones would you suggest that are classic yet modern, my all time favourite is Polo, I’m waiting for a vintage full bottle from EBay. Great video by the way.
@@WaftsfromTheLoft So Alcohol does not degrade essential oils with time? Maybe the scent changed and that's maybe what makes people think there was a reformulation. How does the scent compare to a new Mitsouko bottle? Did you have an extract, oil extract, EDP, EDT? We certainly need a Chemist to explain that to us. A quick search in google says perfumes degrade after 5 years.
Isn't this kind of a futile way to realize the idea behind the video by reviewing contemporary bottles that possibly only share the name with the original vintage formulations? They could be reformulated tens of time and they probably were - times change and so do tastes. Fragrance companies are after all in the first place supposed to make a money and they need to alter they formulas accordingly.
Iron list.. I believe that you could add something. There is a perfume from Caldey Island, called Island lavender water, which Luca Turin gave 5 stars in his 2008 book and said that this is the best lavender on earth. You can buy it from roullierwhite.com for 24 p.
As always happens on TH-camrs, the first moments the best, then nothing is the same. Passion is not the same as exaggeration. You have to have in balance
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.15 (1/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TLBjiHvkKtE/mqdefault.jpg)
Fantastic video!
Whenever people ask me whether I prefer "designer" or "niche", I have to say that I prefer fragrances from a time before this dichotomy even made sense. And you are right: most of the very old perfumes smell so different that our noses have no nostalgic connection to it, which makes them smell truly timeless and by no means dated.
One remark: Knize is pronounced k-niche-eh. Greetings from Germany!
Ah, thanks for the correction!
Vintage perfumery: when the "niche" quality was just the norm.
Absolutely
Well, quite!
Amen...
@@deaconnickolas1613 that’s very shady, don’t do that
What a cracking set guys! So many superb releases here. Very glad I picked up Le 3 Homme when I did. And I still use Colonia as a pick me up in the morning. Such a wonderfully balanced fragrance. Caron Pour un Homme - an icon. One of my suits still smells of it because I used to spray down my jacket before putting it on (no more than 2 sprays of course) as an adjunct to the gentleman's scent I would wear underneath. That way, when I took the jacket off, my shirt would sometimes imbue a hint of that superb vanilla to pair with the citrus aromatic/fougere radiating from my skin. A sneaky way to layer! Loved the discussion on each and every one.
Thanks so much!
Based on this video, I bought Caron Le 3eme Homme. Completely addictive.
I agree with what you say about all the fragrances in this video that I know. All except Platinum Egoiste. I like Platinum Egoiste. I like its freshness and the barbershop feel I get from it
Happy Easter! Thank you both for staying connected during this time. Your videos are quite refreshing. As you announced each fragrance, I found myself exclaiming, "Yes!" You were working your way through my collection with fragrances like Le Troisieme Homme, Azzaro Pour Homme and Knize Ten. I recently acquired vintage bottles of Pour Un Homme de Caron and Polo Green, which Dan mentioned, and it's worth learning how to find them. Jo, you mentioned how these fragrances take you back in time, and that's how I reacted when I smelled Youth Dew, for example. It took me back to my childhood. Similarly, fragrances like Polo Green or Drakkar take me back to my college days, especially when I find a vintage formulation. Dan, you have me looking for a bottle of Grey Flannel, which I haven't worn in years. Truthfully, every fragrance you mentioned in this video is worth trying. The best point that you rightly revisited in this video, is that many of these fragrances do not carry a high price tag. I am quite happy that I followed the advice "learn to appreciate the classics" and am looking forward to your next installment of fragrances which were inspired by vintage fragrances. Thanks again!
I need to get my hands on some vintage Polo and relive the olfactory experience of my youth
Bravo! Enjoyed this list guys.🌹
Thanks!
Great video as always guys. Couple of years misplaced: Yatagan (1976), Antaeus (1981), BdP (1987). Take care!
Thanks for the corrections, we just went with Fragrantica for ease!
Dr. Hauschka makes a body lotion 100% natural ingredients with Sandalwood and Lavender in it and this smells so incredibly creamy and gourmand it's heavenly. It might also have some vanilla in it. This combination of Lavender, Sandalwood and Vanilla is amazing. I will create a perfume oil with that combination. I had already been mixing all natural essential oils together with this combination but I had added many other notes into it as well which was also very amazing. But the more I added to the oil the more it ventured away from the initial creamy scent. It became more oriental because I added Styrax and Benzoin into it which was great too. There are so many amazing combinations one can make. Endlessly many combinations and percentages. All of those ingredients end up costing a Lot of money haha. But it's worth it to enjoy making combinations. So far I am now using the essential oils to make face and body creams. I have already made amazing creams completely water free which are healing for skin and the entire system.
Love,love love Chypre fragrances! Bought a sample size of Chypre Mousse for that reason and at first a bit wielded out, but kept smelling, applying etc. and very quickly fell in love. Definitely the most unique Chypre in my collection!
I have in the past bought Trumpers Eucris and Knize Ten following your your reviews
A couple of absolute gems. Enjoy!
Caron, the most underrated fragrances house.
Absolutely.
What a great video, thank you! I love how many Caron's you included. Superb house it is!
Yes, so underrated!
Giorgio Beverly Hills Giorgio Yellow is really good! Is there anymore of the "wallstreet" fragrances we should try? Thanks for the video.
Speaking of vintage, I just bought vintage No19 edt 50ml and Givenchy 3 pure Parfum, edt 50ml and soap for £30, can’t wait for them to arrive, I hope they’re still good, bought them off a Fella in a FB group so fingers crossed, great video guys.
Pour un Homme de CARON. My dad signature scent and also mine. I love it
Awesome stuff
Another wonderful segment gentlemen. Thank you for upholding standards of class with your great content, as well as respectable attire. I really wanted to love New York Intense, and just couldn't take the lady's handbag powdery note (presumably Orris) that I found pretty dominant in it.
Our pleasure!
Great list. I'd never heard anyone rate Aspen, must check it out (doesn't hurt that it's ridiculously cheap). Lovely to see Le 3ème Homme praised so highly; gorgeous masculines don't get their due (it strikes me that Amber Cologne is something of a successor in spirit) .
Only, I'd throw in Aramis 900 and Havana. But that's the fun of lists...
It's so good!
What a great list! Luckily I have quite a few on here. If you like "Youth Dew" I really recommend "Cinnabar" which I think is slightly better. Also, I would have put "Tabac" on this list!
I'll check it out!
Pine Rocks I tried Cinnabar the other day and it has a great opening but it dried down to a real old lady fragrance, not for me, I took it off my wish list.
So many great ones. Some under the radar ones I recommend are the early Lancôme’s like Balafre, Sagamore, Trophee all stunning. The early Jill Sanders and Donna Karans are well worth checking out too.
Thanks for the tips!
I would add
Jil Sander no4
Gem Van Cleef
Casmir Chopard
Chanel pour Monsieur
Givenchy Gentleman
You know what, I’ve never tried Givenchy Gentleman!
great to see the boys again.greetings from phila pa .
Thanks!
Signor Vivara by Emilio Pucci
I love Grey Flannel, and actually, the initial blast is one of my favourite things about the fragrance. I just wish it stayed around longer. It's so cheap too.
It's great stuff
Another great video. I’ll add Bandit. My favourite. I got 100ml of the current Robert Piguet for about £60 and it measures up tremendously well to the real deal from the 50s (which is the most outrageously expensive juice I own and a treasure). I have no idea why this was classed as a feminine chypre then but it surely isn’t now. It’s dark, leathery, dirty and pulls a 38 ought six from a trench-coat on an Aventus-wearing wannabe .
Bandit is amazing!
Great video and loved the comment at 14:39. Totally agree with you. Also, Grey Flannel is a beautiful fragrance that at one point it was ridiculed by the fragrance community. Reviewers were making fun of it on how bad it smells. No further comment:))) SOTD Zino by Davidoff.
Thanks for watching!
Hope you both had a great easter and all is well with you and yours 🙏
I'm so ready for this list, I might spray on my Shalimar from the 60's and watch along.
Sorry to disappoint, but we haven’t included ANY Guerlain in this!
Great content as always, love your videos!
Thanks!
Can't do that list without Hermes Bel Ami and Eau D'Hermes in it
😀😀😀😀😀😀
Love the video guys
😀
Both fantastic, but neither of us own them
Stumbled on your channel. Beautiful video. I have a perfume bottle in the shape of a smoking pipe with a bearded man's face carved in the brown glass at one side. This has been lying at home for decades now, its presumably men's cologne....smells awesome. No name etched anywhere so not sure about the brand.
Thanks! Sadly, I have no idea what the fragrance is!
Wonderful list, gentlemen! I've definitely got some new ones to look into. I was also wondering what you think about Opium Pour Homme by YSL? I wish I could get a sniff of the vintage edp.
It's been quite a while since i've smelt the Homme version, but I'm currently bidding on a vintage version of the orignal
@@WaftsfromTheLoftawesome. good luck! Please let me know what you think. Cheers
Great topic,, aroma from heaven
I tried all the 79s and 80s ones back in the day, and turned them down in favour of Eau Sauvage, then I found Cacharel. To heck with notes, dry down, complexity (or not) and all the other jargon, the original Cacharel is the scent I would kill for today. I dithered over Polo for years, but never bit, it was just too sporty? to risk. Great video.
Thanks! I've never tried it, another one to hunt down.
yes! 3eme Homme! THE perfect gentlemen scent. tested some recently to find a bday present for my husband, amongst which also Caron Homme and Yatagan, Creed Bois de Portugal, New York Intense, MFK Pluriel Masculin, Hugh Parson's, Nuit de Megève and Azemour les Orangers, and 3eme Homme beat them all.
It really is wonderful stuff!
Great video! What do you guys think of Penhaligon's Douro?
Lovely stuff. It's been quite a while since I've smelt it, may have to revisit it.
Guys this is masterpiece video!!! Thank you thank you thank you
Thank you!
Wonderful retrospective. Have you ever tried Van Cleef & Arpels Pour Homme? I tried a vintage sample yesterday and wow, quite stunning and highly recommended - deep, dark, austere rose and leather. Also, any thoughts on vintage vs. modern Le 3eme Homme and if the modern has lost anything significant? Cheers.
Excellent content guys. For me lots of Easter eggs in your list! I’m gonna pull the trigger on Le 3eme Homme, left it far too long!
It's so good!
Great video coty aspen is still around alright bought a bottle 3 months ago for 12 euro great cheapie.
Good to hear!
Just bought azzaro Pour Homme and i have paco Rabanne Pour Homme ( one of my absolute favorite Scents of all time now!!! Its so me) and Yes i Agree that azzaro represents a benchmark, where Paco pour homme is what I imagine the barbershops from the 50s smelled like and I’m from Norway and a tv geek so Paco pour homme also smells Norway in 73 I feel, very conservative clean , BUT then 1978 comes and the 70s are truly here I think in azzaro pour homme, it’s this spicy exotic barber smell with that anis and oh, it’s stylish, but with a kick!
Hey chap's, have you tried anything from Al Haramain? Paul Brampton Ontario. Still a fan 🤸♀️
Never actually tried any from A H
Great video lots of interesting picks I love the carons. What do you think of aramis 900? Thinkimg of picking it up as its available for great prices
I’ve watched this video many times. Thank you. Would I be correct in saying that I don’t think you did the video of modern fragrances that are vintage inspired? This would be right up my alley!
Excited!! thats my evening’s viewing sorted!!
Enjoy!
Just bought samples of Yatagan and Pour Un Homme the other day. If it were my list I’d included original Aramis for sure
Fragrance history should have designations like BA, Before Aventus :-)
We try not to use the 'A word' on our channel
Excellent video guys!
If you're in the market for a really animalic Bal a Versailles, you might want to try the eau de cologne. I have the extrait too and agree that it is not as animalic as I might have expected. Still absolutely gorgeous! I've also sampled the edc though, and that was truly carnal! I want it! Otherwise my favorite vintage perfumes include Jean Patou Moment Supreme, Tabu, Opium, Charles Jourdan Un Homme, Givenchy Gentleman, Paco Rabanne Tenere, Kouros, and a bunch of Guerlains. :)
Ooh, thanks for the tip!
Keep doing what you're doing gentlemen. I bought Sex Appeal purely on your recommendation and I can concur that this is a really beautiful fragrance at a ridiculously cheap price.
Glad you're enjoy it!
Great content! Love
Thanks so much!
So long! Huzzah! You’re accompanying my cooking. 🤗
Just had to go seek out my Knize for mutual sniffage
Cool. I have eight of them (and not angel btw because I’m a girl😂). Bloody loved this. I might have put in an Hermès myself perhaps but top list. More please! Mwah 🤗
Thanks for watching!!!
Loved the video 👍🏼
Thanks!
Wonderful, so many cheapies to explore
Yes, there certainly are!
I have Grossmith Saffron Rose edp an awesome fragrance 2016
I have not found a Caron Fragrance that I don't like. It's an amazing house.
I love this theme. SOTD: Lapidus Pour Homme by Ted Lapidus.
This is what we were hoping for, some must try suggestions! Have been meaning to seek this one out!
Love Lapidus pour homme.....like Kouros but with honey and more fruit...lovely stuff
Mitsouko?
wim vanheede as we said at the beginning, we didn’t mention any Guerlain, as we’ve already devoted a whole (rather long!) video to Guerlain
Vintage sometimes means pre reformulation.
Yes, it gets rather over-used, and can refer to something just a couple of years old!
I hope you guys one day try fragrance du Bois Sahraa oud it’s phenomenal
It gets an awful lot of love!
Thoughts on Hammam Bouquet?
I don’t want to smell like an old man so which ones would you suggest that are classic yet modern, my all time favourite is Polo, I’m waiting for a vintage full bottle from EBay.
Great video by the way.
Thanks! Jaipur Homme is a real winner, and doesn't smell dated to my nose.
Wafts from The Loft edt or edp.
I prefer the edt actually. I wore it yesterday
Wafts from The Loft many thanks. 👍🏻
Wafts from The Loft just bought it on EBay 100ml edt £22.99 free shipping. 👍🏻
You are like a balsam to my soul!
Thanks!
Great video ❤🌹
Thanks!
Seems you guyz working from home happily......was ur salaries paid in time ?????
No! We are musicians, so that means we get nothing, until the government pays 80%, which will hopefully happen in June
Don't fragrances lose its strength after 5-7 years? What's the point in buying an old bottle?
Absolutely not! My 1980 Mitsouko is very tenacious!
@@WaftsfromTheLoft So Alcohol does not degrade essential oils with time? Maybe the scent changed and that's maybe what makes people think there was a reformulation. How does the scent compare to a new Mitsouko bottle? Did you have an extract, oil extract, EDP, EDT?
We certainly need a Chemist to explain that to us.
A quick search in google says perfumes degrade after 5 years.
Speaking of ....MY SOTD HAHA Just happens to be BEAVERS TESTICLES AU FRAICHE
Hahahha!
Wearing vintage guerlain vetiver watching this
TheHonestjbone sorry to disappoint, but we decided not to include any Guerlain in this one!
Isn't this kind of a futile way to realize the idea behind the video by reviewing contemporary bottles that possibly only share the name with the original vintage formulations? They could be reformulated tens of time and they probably were - times change and so do tastes. Fragrance companies are after all in the first place supposed to make a money and they need to alter they formulas accordingly.
In an ideal world they would all be original formulations, but other than the Osmotheque, I can't think of anyone who would be able to do that video!
@@WaftsfromTheLoft still enjoyed it though. Thanks guys
Azzaro pour homme, it's a beautiful thang!
Certainly is!
Some other real gorgeous fragrances on this list.....GBHFM...Kouros.....Chanel Egoiste and Anteaus omg I'm in heaven 😀
In his 2008 Perfumes book Luca Turin wrote that Yatagan is one of the best male perfumes for women!
Ah! Interesting!
Hello 😊
Hi!
Iron list.. I believe that you could add something. There is a perfume from Caldey Island, called Island lavender water, which Luca Turin gave 5 stars in his 2008 book and said that this is the best lavender on earth. You can buy it from roullierwhite.com for 24 p.
Yes, it's great stuff, but I think I'd always go for Caron Pour Un Homme over Caldey
U can pick out the nuts 😀
You can barely hear Dan. Please put your mike down closer to your mouth. Joe is booming !
Sorry, a few ZOOM mic level issues!
egoiste is rich and decaaent ,its incredible .....platinum smells like a cheap soapy mess to me
As always happens on TH-camrs, the first moments the best, then nothing is the same. Passion is not the same as exaggeration. You have to have in balance
Please people try chypre mousse before buying it. It can be disgusting
Well now I REALLY want to try it.
@@samanthaferrari5948 Go ahead. I hope you like it!
Yes, as we said, it smells like a slightly avant garde-niche!
1st
A tad bit sad that Drakkar Noir is not included in this list :(