Or...it would be, if that were how they're actually organized. What they actually have, is no practical organization at all. They give and follow whatever orders suit the narrative at the moment...and often just do completely random stupid shit that is both tactically and strategically detrimental. But they suffer no consequences because the writers just write them whatever they need to be a threat, regardless of the logistical realities of their circumstances.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 i thought the dominion and gem hadar were ok and their strategic and tactical methods made enough sense to me. The gem hadar dont have to be effective in ship to ship combat they have a simple rigid way of operating and wont surrender and like suicide attacks. It may not make sense in some ways like trying to win a war but the founders goals were to get odo back to the link and for solids to kill solids. It matters not how many ships or clones the dominion lose as long as they kill solids. They could go back to the gamma quadrant if they lost and return a decade later with a massive fleet. It was only the cjangeling disease that stopped the war.
"Agressive" seems to fit the Dominion quite well, we really see them performing their best when they are on the attack, and I assume that in the Gamma quadrant where factories could keep pumping out ships their philosophy was the best defense is a good offense - once the Alpha quadrant powers managed to turn the tables and cut off reinforcements from the Gamma quadrant, we start to see the Dominion falter. Despite still having colossal numbers they never seemed to fare too well in a defensive engagement, barring the introduction of the Cardassian weapon platforms and reaching out to the Breen for their aid. Dominion ships were given lip service that claimed they were highly technologically advanced, though their defenses always seemed a bit lacking. Phased polaron weapons were very dangerous to Federation ships at the start of the war, but Jem'Hadar attack ships never appeared to be particularly well shielded. Despite being physically durable, we see them die in scores to Federation, Klingon and Romulan weapons even at the beginning of the war. I truly think that the Dominion has just had very little experience fighting defensively as there's no competition that we know of in the Gamma quadrant; this is further supported by the story presented in Star trek Online, with the Dominion being absolutely massacred even on their home turf by the Hurq' when forced to fight on the defensive.
didn't know about the STO story line, but i can definitely see it. going forward we'll see how the dominion struggle on the defensive whilst the cardassians kinda thrive on it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, the way you were describing the Cardassian fleet doctrine, defensive naval warfare definitely seems like something they would be very good at. If you have seen The Templin Institute’s video on building an interstellar navy, the Cardassians definitely seem like their naval doctrine would be similar to that of the Soviet Navy’s
I know it's two months late, but I can't resist jumping in. The problem with the Dominion on the defense is that they over-subscribe to the Soviet style combat doctrine. They are brilliant in the upper echelon but deliberately limited in the mid to lower ranks for political and economic reasons. It makes them deadly in planned encounters and pitched battles but really vulnerable to surprises. To be fair, everyone is vulnerable to operational and strategic surprises, but Soviet style militaries are really vulnerable as the mid to lower ranks are the ones that have to react to surprises and their insufficiencies are the price their system pays for their doctrine. Sheer grit and numbers help counter this problem, but a problem it remains. As for the vulnerability of Dominion ships, there is a logic to it. Even if the jem Hadar fighters are relatively easy to destroy, killing one does not really lower the firepower of a formation. And that's the point: every shot of your formation can only damage that set amount of the Jem Hadar formation, even if those ships are completely destroyed. It becomes a math equation that the vortas can easily calculate and decide on. Jem Hadar fighters are meant to be powerful enough to cause good damage but cheap enough to throw away in a game of attrition and cost/benefit analysis.
The Dominion can make a new soldier in 3 minutes. I imagine their ships are just as quickly produced. Aside from their weapons tech advantage, which the Federation and Klingons eventually caught up to, they also have their advantage of disposable Shock Troops. They can overwhelm other opponents on sheer numbers and savagery in combat. This is their real strength. And now I want to see a Dominion-Borg war. Their doctrines seem to be in opposite directions at times. Instead of disposable troops and ships, the Borg create this one monolithic ship at just bulldozes it's way across the entire battlefield.
The true strength of the Dominion lies in their logistics. Highly standardized patterns of ships whose production has been streamlined to maximum efficiency. These ships do not need to be great or highly specialized, just well enough made to do their job in their intended role, because they were supposed to be just as replaceable as their crews. Crews that are just as much mass produced and do not require years worth of training. The Dominion can out-produce any other major power, if they are allowed to and the tactics they employ reflect the callous disregard for their own troops only matched by the Borg, or the Imperial Guard from W40k. Winning a war, for the Dominion is not a question of strategy and tactics (though they do make use of these, of course), but of how much men and material the need to throw at their enemy. The dominion doesn't care if they lose a squadron of the bug ships, the next are just rolling of the assembly line somewhere, combat ready with a crew waiting for them. That's why the allied military commanders in the Dominion war, kept arguing against any armistice and to keep pushing, because they new how fast the Dominion would be back to their old strength if left to their own devices; because if it had come to a war of attrition between the alpha quadrant powers and the dominion, the Dominion would have won. (The dominion would have won without the literal Deus Ex Machin, but that is beside the point.)
I wouldn't call the Prophet of the wormhole a Deus Ex Machin since it was their wormhole and Sioko force their hand. The Dominion completely neglected the Prophet, forgetting it was prophet home, not just a passage way. Sometime unexpected event play a major turning point, bad or whether whether. Fir example: the Mongol invasion of invasions of Japan getting destroyed by hurricane.
That's why starfleet had so much trouble. Their lack of proper military structure made them rely on attrition warfare to win. Facing someone who is better in your own game is a loss
Oh buddy, I don’t just watch your channel for stuff I don’t know. It’s entertaining. Of course dominion doctrine is simple to understand but I love the way you explain it all.
You could argue that Jem'Hadar rank prioritizes role functions over general authority. Instead of one or two LTs and a dozen Ensigns delineated further by classes, you have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. That way, if a soldier dies, everyone already knows who will take his place. If so, then one might infer that Vorta derive their authority from their roles. A squadron commander might have absolute, almost autonomous authority over the squadron which is kept in check by general orders. Two squadron commanders might not cooperate unless they first agree or they're explicitly ordered to do so. A division commander could command squadrons within the division, but not any squadron in the fleet. A commander might try to suggest otherwise, but authority is purely defined by the role. I believe the Vorta compete with one another to achieve greater roles. Greater roles mean greater prestige and the acquisitions that come with it, much like the appeal in being a successful Roman general. I imagine violence is rare, but intrigue is the norm. Thanks for the doctrine video. At the very least, it helps complete the collection.
I suspect it's more about moving their clone template up in desirbility to the founders. If a low ranking Vorts proves competent in some way they or their succesor clones, move up in the esteem of the Link and are more likely to be directly selected for a task, or serve the Founders directly.
It's a pity we never got to see Vorta interact, but given their extremely treacherous nature, I figure the office politics was intense. They are, with few exceptions, truly loyal to the Founders and their wishes. As long as it didn't offend the Founders' wishes, anything is fair game. I really like the idea of Vorta making their templates more appealing, implying some modicum of fluidity to their being. But yes, I think it's all about appeasing the Founders.
Seeing how the Jem’Hadar Fighter is the primary ship of the Dominion fleet, i feel like this makes sense because of how things were in the Gamma Quadrant. I have to imagine that with the Dominion in unchallenged control of the Gamma Quadrant, they went for a very police state doctrine, not unlike the Tarkin Doctrine of Star Wars. But rather than using this large battleships as a deterrent, the threat instead was these swarms of these little attack ships coming in and just raiding the planet if they got out of hand
I think Dominion doctrine revolves around a highly effective intelligence arm and lots of expendable Jem'Hadar and Jem'Hadar fighters. It seems the lager ships are effectively command/control and logistics (munitions, fuel, ketracel-white, etc.) vessels with a secondary mission of fire support. Dominion policy seems to revolve around intelligence (to include ISR as well as misinformation, creating political and social unrest) with diplomacy and military actions in support. A logical doctrine for shapeshifters.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 That was the basis of a Stainless Steel Rat (Harry Harrison) story. It has been a while, but he was sent in to find out how an a planet was able to successfully invade another planet. Based on the concept of "The Tyranny of Distance" the logistics involved with an interstellar invasion, where the technology was equivalent technology, made invasions impossible. The answer was they had already won the war from within.
Dominion fleet fleet doctrine is very WWII Soviet style. Very callous with lives but the commanders are expected to get as high of a premium for their casualties. When you're willing to accept high casualties as a matter of course, war becomes less an art than a science. Operationally and strategically, they operate like Soviet style Deep Battle; they will trap not one army/fleet but whole fronts and regions. Honestly, it's like watching Tuchachevsky and Zhukov in space.
When we and our Klingon allies tried to relieve our trapped fleets just prior to operation return the dominion gave as good as they got. The opening onslaught of “ operation doorstop “proved very successful, we were able to punch a hole in their lines and we were able to keep it open long enough for the 3 trapped Klingon fleets and the trapped federation fleet to escape. We baited the dominion into an asteroid belt and with a combination of assimilators ( the things used in the promillian wars) and mines we were able to make a significant dent in the forces opposing us. We the Normandy, Defiant and Saber class escorts kept pulling the fighters farther from their BC support which was our plan. The BC units were supposed to be jumped on by Starfleet ships that would drop out of warp, unload massive torpedo volleys and jump back to warp before they could be engaged or get swarmed. This allowed us to negate their preference to fight as a single unit and let us inflict heavy damage. Unfortunately we were unable to destroy most of the heavily damaged BCs cause they would run away before we could finish them . We opened a corridor for the ships to stream out but some we had to try to rush fuel carriers to as they were running out of matter or anti matter. That’s where the dominion decided to hit us. They played hit n run with our fuel tankers ( Probably got it from the cardassians). I had to pull some of my best commanders off the security assignments of holding the space open for escort duty protecting our fuel ships. We got our ships out but our fuel carriers paid a steep price. The fighter units would drop out of warp, rush the fuel carriers and try to kill or cripple them in one pass, then return later to finish the damaged ship. In most cases we were able to tow the fuel carrier to a point, unload its fuel, then abandon the ship after we set the auto destruct. Having to protect the transports forced us to leave gaps in our defensive corridor which let the damn fighters in in the first place. Took us 3 weeks to get everyone out and the Dominion was trying to play a war of attrition. I figure the Vorta opposing me was using either breen or cardassian tactics. It was definitely not the tactics of the dominion as we knew them
Not everyone knows DS9 trivia so well and I'm glad that you made this video. TL;DR: The opposite of Klingons in terms of what supports what and the level of recklessness.
Honestly, the Dominion always struck me as "tons of torpedo boats followed by a few heavy battleships" a shockingly effective strategy from the early battleship Era of IRL 🌎. Dominion attack ships are expendable, fast and well armed, but can't engage in long fights due to limited torpedoes and durability.
Cool. It seems the Dominion use organization similar to an airforce. 3 ships being a squadron, 2 squadrons is a wing and so on. The episode Valiant gives a clear indication that a Jemhadar wing is 6 ships. Of course it all depends on the mission, sometimes you might have 3 squadrons to a wing for a total of 9 fighters. By the same metric it seems the Federation started using similar fleet organization to counter the Dominion. Cruiser and Galaxy wings for example.
the dominion ships are all very similar as well, it seems that they make use of standardised parts on all their ships to make all the parts interchangeable. it means that they can keep going without having to worry about having lots of different parts like the federation does. To me as well, I think the dominion prioritises constant offensive action with fighters before sending in the cruisers or a battleship. Like the various battles fought in the eastern Solomon's against Henderson field, send in destroyers on constant raids to keep them pinned and occasionally commit cruisers, carriers, and battleships after brutal destroyer attacks to overwhelm them. Constant offensive action seems to be the main dominion strategy, push with the fighters while cruisers hold a defensive line that can be commit to weak points.
I can see the similarity with current modern naval doctrines with aircraft carrier. Swarms of Jem'Hadar ships can effectively create a 1st level defense screen, then the battlecruisers do the rest of the legworks. Starfleet however, I can see very close resemblance with Napoleonic artillery doctrine. Torpedoes are vastly prioritized and, let's say, a 200 starfleet ships, organized in 100 light second area can be an unstoppable battering ram style juggernaut.
New to your Channel, forgive me. Great voice btw. Please tell me @Venom Geek Media 98 you're a Star Fleet Battles fan. I love your profiles and your use of real life battle planning and how you use it with Star Trek. I'm impressed with all this and just play your videos in playlist and just get drawn in. So thank you.
I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the Dominion doctrine is they have a Just-In-Time mentality with shipbuilding. In that they build and maintain a force they think they require, and if they are undersized, they depend on being able to build a fleet quickly. To the point that I believe when the Federation and the Dominion first meant each other, the Federation had the larger fleet. This is due to the fact the Dominion taking two years before contacting the Federation in the most aggressive measure possible to tell them they are entering their space, leave or we will open fire. And that they don't put a large blockade fleet in front of the Wormhole to discourage travel. And finally, the convoy of ships coming every few weeks instead of every day or every week. For that is probably how long it took to build them and gather them in Dominion space.
Dominion doctrine is a bit of an inverse to Starfleet doctrine. Instead of making it as complex as possible to make it redundant & better adaptable to any situation, the Dominion make it as simple as possible to make it redundant & better adaptable to any situation. And the Dominion do not care about non-Changeling casualties unless they are losing and do not have the number or tech advantage to compensate for those losses. The only conventional (non-Q/Organian/etc) factions in this time period that really invalidate this tactic are the Borg & Voth (and the Iconians & Hur'q if you include STO beta cannon).
I think if you bring STO timeline, then Tzenkethi tactic is probably the best to counter the Dominion tactic. Very powerful shields and small but very durable shield and hull repair unites that will repair bigger ships while frigates and battlecruisers have manoeuvrability of modern F1 cars, but most importantly, they have some of the most powerful forward-facing cannons in the galaxy, can stomp anything on their way.
@@aiosquadron And annoyingly, my main is a Sci with very strong Gravity Well build (Legendary Glenn). Her tactic doesn't work on Tzenkethi because they are immune to gravity wells.
@@aiosquadron ; I don't know what faction you are referring too, but the UNSC supermacs have a yield of 51 gigatons. Most high yield late-24th/early-25th century weapons (excluding purpose-built planet-killers) used by the conventional powers in Star Trek tend to be in "Isotons" which is just technobabble for "what ever the plot/writers need it to be". But most apocryphal sources and calculations tend to have it usually in the mid-to-high megaton range. Still Star Trek weapons tend to be faster in fire-rate and have more 'ammo' in regard to phasers.
@@cmdrtianyilin8107 ; Tzenkethi ships are powerful yes. But they are not powerful enough to make up for their lack of numbers. But yeah trying to taken down Tzenkethi battleships, especially in the Gon'cra Battlezone is such a pain. Thankfully my main is quite a tank against NPC ships.
The biggest flaw with the Dominion fleet is its strength of a uniform fighting fleet. Yes they have a strong small strike ship but it is just that a disposable fighter. The Jem'hadar lose them to a burst from the Rotarran (true that is a flagship BOP so probably upgraded) this means that they need huge numbers and as we see in DS9 when the numbers are on par they get slaughtered.
definitely some resemblance, and as others have stated, both seem to embrace the 'Tarkin Doctrine' but while the empire relies on overwhelming force. the dominion relies on overwhelming presence.
Im half way through the vid so if you cover this later ignore me. You should have mentioned the suicide tactics of the gem hadar fighters and how they would sacrifice themselves to protect the cruiser coardinating the squadron like flying into enemy weapons fire to protect a cruiser. Its nice to see these vids you just get none of this detail in star trek itself.
The dominion were unique out of all factionsin the war because they were not necessarily trying to win the war like the other powers their home was not at risk and they thought odo going home was more important than victory and as long as solids were killing solids its all good to them
thats something of a misapprehension, while that can be argued in the early part of the war. later on the soviets were very deliberate and methodical. making heavy use of artillery, which has always been a russian strong suite, even in the Napoleonic wars.
The BCs do not do well with a tactic I designed in the field. Using the 1st RRTF as a design point for a hard hitting, fast moving tactical unit we came up with a plan which defeats the Jem, Hadar units. The 6 attack ships be they Normandy or defiant class deliberately try to entangle the fighters. We keep the fighters busy since we can turn with them and match them. While this is going on a cloaked, and armored sovereign class waits and when the BC moves to support its fighters that’s when it gets pounded on. The Sovereign drops it’s cloak and then mercilessly unloads everything it has on the BC while using its superior maneuverability to accept or refuse combat. While this is going on the 6 defiant or Normandy class ships have been grinding the fighters down. Frequently as Normandy or Defiant class ships wipe a fighter or 2 out they drop out of the fight with a cloak or quick move and they hang above where they’re tough to pick up. As the BC calls back it’s fighters the freed up federation or Klingon attackers pounce on the returning fighters while the other attackers are giving chase. It frequently puts the dominion on the backfoot and forces them into the defensive where they’re not as good. It works
I call the largest Jem'hadar ships Dreadnoughts, because they are MASSIVE warships, built to terrify the enemy, take a lot of punishment, and dish out more.
I find it interesting that the battlecruisers are the ones that act in support. Are there any instances of battlecruisers forming their own sort of division and pushing an advance? I feel like that’d be quite the hammerstrike.
The Dominion are like Nazi Germany using Soviet tactics. Here's my reasoning why. Soviet equipment philosophy was geared towards how they waged war. Make it good enough to get the job done and easy to fix so you can churn out loads of it and swarm the enemy. Why make something that'll last 6 years when it will be blown up in 6 months? If you ever see a T-34 up close, the finish of the tank is shit, the edges are rough cut and there are gaps between the armour plates. Compare that the Nazi Germany where all pieces of equipment are over engineered and finished to a standard that is almost artisan. The Dominion in turn have high quality equipment that they treat as though it was a throwaway item in the way they wage war.
more accurately late war soviet tactics, since the soviets turned a lot of the same ideas the germans had used against them in their offensives, with large motorized charges, the main difference is that the soviets did this across a wide front while the germans concentrated their forces.
I know its fiction but I always wondered why the federation never built missiles or mines during the war with the dominion off of quantum torpedo tech only orders of magnitude stronger/ more powerful. Like the michael eddington story with cloaked missiles .
I would imagine that the simplicity is it's biggest weakness. By having only 3 ship types, only two of which are regularly used, it's also easier to formulate counters both in ship design and tactics. Having to deal with lots of little ships? Spam out Sabers and Defiants. Problem solved.
"Spam out Sabers and Defiants. Problem solved." Not really, though, because the Dominion can also spam out a near-endless number of ships, and (unlike every Alpha Quadrant power) they can also spam out crew for those ships, and ground troops. Every Starfleet ships destroyed results in a loss of life that cannot be easily replaced, given that it takes years to graduate Starfleet Academy. Meanwhile, the Dominion can grow a new batch of combat ready Jem'Hadar in a couple of months.
@@CorvusBelli01 That would depend on the attrition vs production rate. If Starfleet can build and crew 1 Defiant/Saber for the Domion's 3 "Bug" gunships, it's still manageable if the attrition rate is 4 or 5 to 1. The attrition rate is probably even higher than that since we've seen the Defiant chew up a whole wing of gunships without breaking a sweat. Even a TNG/DS9 era Bird of Prey can single handedly take on a wing of gunships (the DS9 episode where Alexander comes back) and hold its own despite not being nearly as powerful as the Defiant.
@@0utc4st1985 Starfleet were losing thousands of people in battles, with no way to quickly replace their losses. The 7th Fleet lost 98 ships and their crew in a matter of hours, and the crew of DS9 mention that the weekly casualty lists contain thousands of names; even if Starfleet could build replacement ships in a week it wouldn't matter, since they can't replace the crews that quickly. It is explicitly stated time and time again in DS9 that the Federation simply cannot compete with the Dominion's ability to replace their combat losses; one side has to spend years training new crews and troops, while the other side grows their soldiers en masse. "If Starfleet can build and crew 1 Defiant/Saber for the Domion's 3 "Bug" gunships" That's the point, though; Starfleet CAN'T replace crew that effectively. A Defiant-class ship needs a crew of 50; where are the Federation getting 50 new, trained officers from every time they lose a small ship, or the 500 officers needed to crew an Akira-class? The Dominion, on the other hand, can grow new Jem'Hadar from infant to battle-ready in a matter of weeks.
@@CorvusBelli01 This is because most of Starfleet still consisted of much older, more crew intensive designs like the Excelsior or Miranda. Not only did those ships have a much higher crew count than the Saber or Defiant, they also weren't as effective. Besides because the Saber and Defiant classes are small they can be built quickly. The crew replacements just come down having a big enough training program to accommodate the production schedule, entirely doable since the Federation had a population of what, 100+ billion?
@venom geek media, in which month was yulgrun captured by the ferengi n handed over to starfleet, you not meantion anything from what starfleet learn from him in the month by month videos
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well depends which month you used for the dominion attempt at peace talks as that episode 9 n yulgrun capture is episode 10 n the romulan entry to war is 9 episodes after so depends on the 2 events to which month you allocate n put it between the 2
If the Jem'Hadar fighter is a "fighter" why isn't the Defiant a "fighter" and not a gunship. They are of similar size after all. I think DEFIANT actually fills the niche of a fighter for Starfleet and not the throw away ships you see in DS9.
That was not my intention. Whenever I decide to make a video I've got to choose between what I'm interested in as well as what's popular. Sometimes videos fall through the cracks
It's shit. Maybe not as shit as the rest of Star Trek...but really not all that much better, if at all. What they know about space combat, a quadriplegic could juggle.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Every few words you say sounds highly exaggerated, like when Americans are trying to poorly mimic a British accent. You are putting it on a bit, No British person speaks that exaggerated anywhere.
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Interesting symbolic parallel that the Jem Hadar fleet is organized very simple and adaptable/fluid...just like their Founder masters.
Or...it would be, if that were how they're actually organized. What they actually have, is no practical organization at all. They give and follow whatever orders suit the narrative at the moment...and often just do completely random stupid shit that is both tactically and strategically detrimental. But they suffer no consequences because the writers just write them whatever they need to be a threat, regardless of the logistical realities of their circumstances.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 i thought the dominion and gem hadar were ok and their strategic and tactical methods made enough sense to me. The gem hadar dont have to be effective in ship to ship combat they have a simple rigid way of operating and wont surrender and like suicide attacks. It may not make sense in some ways like trying to win a war but the founders goals were to get odo back to the link and for solids to kill solids. It matters not how many ships or clones the dominion lose as long as they kill solids. They could go back to the gamma quadrant if they lost and return a decade later with a massive fleet. It was only the cjangeling disease that stopped the war.
"Agressive" seems to fit the Dominion quite well, we really see them performing their best when they are on the attack, and I assume that in the Gamma quadrant where factories could keep pumping out ships their philosophy was the best defense is a good offense - once the Alpha quadrant powers managed to turn the tables and cut off reinforcements from the Gamma quadrant, we start to see the Dominion falter. Despite still having colossal numbers they never seemed to fare too well in a defensive engagement, barring the introduction of the Cardassian weapon platforms and reaching out to the Breen for their aid.
Dominion ships were given lip service that claimed they were highly technologically advanced, though their defenses always seemed a bit lacking. Phased polaron weapons were very dangerous to Federation ships at the start of the war, but Jem'Hadar attack ships never appeared to be particularly well shielded. Despite being physically durable, we see them die in scores to Federation, Klingon and Romulan weapons even at the beginning of the war.
I truly think that the Dominion has just had very little experience fighting defensively as there's no competition that we know of in the Gamma quadrant; this is further supported by the story presented in Star trek Online, with the Dominion being absolutely massacred even on their home turf by the Hurq' when forced to fight on the defensive.
didn't know about the STO story line, but i can definitely see it. going forward we'll see how the dominion struggle on the defensive whilst the cardassians kinda thrive on it.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, the way you were describing the Cardassian fleet doctrine, defensive naval warfare definitely seems like something they would be very good at. If you have seen The Templin Institute’s video on building an interstellar navy, the Cardassians definitely seem like their naval doctrine would be similar to that of the Soviet Navy’s
@@fightingfalcon777 I'll give it a look
I guess the Dominions doctrine on defence is always being on the attack.
I know it's two months late, but I can't resist jumping in. The problem with the Dominion on the defense is that they over-subscribe to the Soviet style combat doctrine. They are brilliant in the upper echelon but deliberately limited in the mid to lower ranks for political and economic reasons. It makes them deadly in planned encounters and pitched battles but really vulnerable to surprises. To be fair, everyone is vulnerable to operational and strategic surprises, but Soviet style militaries are really vulnerable as the mid to lower ranks are the ones that have to react to surprises and their insufficiencies are the price their system pays for their doctrine. Sheer grit and numbers help counter this problem, but a problem it remains.
As for the vulnerability of Dominion ships, there is a logic to it. Even if the jem Hadar fighters are relatively easy to destroy, killing one does not really lower the firepower of a formation. And that's the point: every shot of your formation can only damage that set amount of the Jem Hadar formation, even if those ships are completely destroyed. It becomes a math equation that the vortas can easily calculate and decide on. Jem Hadar fighters are meant to be powerful enough to cause good damage but cheap enough to throw away in a game of attrition and cost/benefit analysis.
The Dominion can make a new soldier in 3 minutes. I imagine their ships are just as quickly produced. Aside from their weapons tech advantage, which the Federation and Klingons eventually caught up to, they also have their advantage of disposable Shock Troops. They can overwhelm other opponents on sheer numbers and savagery in combat. This is their real strength.
And now I want to see a Dominion-Borg war. Their doctrines seem to be in opposite directions at times. Instead of disposable troops and ships, the Borg create this one monolithic ship at just bulldozes it's way across the entire battlefield.
The true strength of the Dominion lies in their logistics.
Highly standardized patterns of ships whose production has been streamlined to maximum efficiency.
These ships do not need to be great or highly specialized, just well enough made to do their job in their intended role, because they were supposed to be just as replaceable as their crews.
Crews that are just as much mass produced and do not require years worth of training.
The Dominion can out-produce any other major power, if they are allowed to and the tactics they employ reflect the callous disregard for their own troops only matched by the Borg, or the Imperial Guard from W40k. Winning a war, for the Dominion is not a question of strategy and tactics (though they do make use of these, of course), but of how much men and material the need to throw at their enemy. The dominion doesn't care if they lose a squadron of the bug ships, the next are just rolling of the assembly line somewhere, combat ready with a crew waiting for them.
That's why the allied military commanders in the Dominion war, kept arguing against any armistice and to keep pushing, because they new how fast the Dominion would be back to their old strength if left to their own devices; because if it had come to a war of attrition between the alpha quadrant powers and the dominion, the Dominion would have won.
(The dominion would have won without the literal Deus Ex Machin, but that is beside the point.)
Yeah the dominion logistics is the envy of most modern armies. I mean look how hard it is just to get NATO standard ammunition types organised
Actually their was one way to stop the dominion reinforcements from coming through. Blow the wormhole,
I wouldn't call the Prophet of the wormhole a Deus Ex Machin since it was their wormhole and Sioko force their hand. The Dominion completely neglected the Prophet, forgetting it was prophet home, not just a passage way.
Sometime unexpected event play a major turning point, bad or whether whether. Fir example: the Mongol invasion of invasions of Japan getting destroyed by hurricane.
@@matthewcaughey8898 the Dominion, namly a founder who was disguse as Bashir fix it that so it was impossible to destory wormhole.
That's why starfleet had so much trouble. Their lack of proper military structure made them rely on attrition warfare to win. Facing someone who is better in your own game is a loss
Nice job. Very inciteful. I love the Dominion.
Oh buddy, I don’t just watch your channel for stuff I don’t know. It’s entertaining. Of course dominion doctrine is simple to understand but I love the way you explain it all.
Dominion tactics: its just a flow chart where every single result just boils down to "send in more ships".
You could argue that Jem'Hadar rank prioritizes role functions over general authority. Instead of one or two LTs and a dozen Ensigns delineated further by classes, you have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. That way, if a soldier dies, everyone already knows who will take his place. If so, then one might infer that Vorta derive their authority from their roles. A squadron commander might have absolute, almost autonomous authority over the squadron which is kept in check by general orders. Two squadron commanders might not cooperate unless they first agree or they're explicitly ordered to do so. A division commander could command squadrons within the division, but not any squadron in the fleet. A commander might try to suggest otherwise, but authority is purely defined by the role.
I believe the Vorta compete with one another to achieve greater roles. Greater roles mean greater prestige and the acquisitions that come with it, much like the appeal in being a successful Roman general. I imagine violence is rare, but intrigue is the norm.
Thanks for the doctrine video. At the very least, it helps complete the collection.
I think intruige for the vorta would be competitively kissing up to the founders.
I suspect it's more about moving their clone template up in desirbility to the founders.
If a low ranking Vorts proves competent in some way they or their succesor clones, move up in the esteem of the Link and are more likely to be directly selected for a task, or serve the Founders directly.
It's a pity we never got to see Vorta interact, but given their extremely treacherous nature, I figure the office politics was intense. They are, with few exceptions, truly loyal to the Founders and their wishes. As long as it didn't offend the Founders' wishes, anything is fair game. I really like the idea of Vorta making their templates more appealing, implying some modicum of fluidity to their being. But yes, I think it's all about appeasing the Founders.
I’d love to see some of these Fleet Doctrine analyses videos for other sci-go franchises like Star Wars 👍🏻
I would too. But the algorithm would kill me.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 damn :/
Seeing how the Jem’Hadar Fighter is the primary ship of the Dominion fleet, i feel like this makes sense because of how things were in the Gamma Quadrant. I have to imagine that with the Dominion in unchallenged control of the Gamma Quadrant, they went for a very police state doctrine, not unlike the Tarkin Doctrine of Star Wars. But rather than using this large battleships as a deterrent, the threat instead was these swarms of these little attack ships coming in and just raiding the planet if they got out of hand
yeah it means that the dominion is basically omnipresent. rather than in the federation where often only one ship is in range.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I really like that, these constant patrols of these swarm ships being everywhere
I think Dominion doctrine revolves around a highly effective intelligence arm and lots of expendable Jem'Hadar and Jem'Hadar fighters. It seems the lager ships are effectively command/control and logistics (munitions, fuel, ketracel-white, etc.) vessels with a secondary mission of fire support.
Dominion policy seems to revolve around intelligence (to include ISR as well as misinformation, creating political and social unrest) with diplomacy and military actions in support. A logical doctrine for shapeshifters.
yeah most of the time the military would only come in after they've effectively already won.
@@venomgeekmedia9886
That was the basis of a Stainless Steel Rat (Harry Harrison) story. It has been a while, but he was sent in to find out how an a planet was able to successfully invade another planet. Based on the concept of "The Tyranny of Distance" the logistics involved with an interstellar invasion, where the technology was equivalent technology, made invasions impossible. The answer was they had already won the war from within.
Dominion fleet fleet doctrine is very WWII Soviet style. Very callous with lives but the commanders are expected to get as high of a premium for their casualties. When you're willing to accept high casualties as a matter of course, war becomes less an art than a science. Operationally and strategically, they operate like Soviet style Deep Battle; they will trap not one army/fleet but whole fronts and regions. Honestly, it's like watching Tuchachevsky and Zhukov in space.
Good historical comparison.
When we and our Klingon allies tried to relieve our trapped fleets just prior to operation return the dominion gave as good as they got. The opening onslaught of “ operation doorstop “proved very successful, we were able to punch a hole in their lines and we were able to keep it open long enough for the 3 trapped Klingon fleets and the trapped federation fleet to escape. We baited the dominion into an asteroid belt and with a combination of assimilators ( the things used in the promillian wars) and mines we were able to make a significant dent in the forces opposing us. We the Normandy, Defiant and Saber class escorts kept pulling the fighters farther from their BC support which was our plan. The BC units were supposed to be jumped on by Starfleet ships that would drop out of warp, unload massive torpedo volleys and jump back to warp before they could be engaged or get swarmed. This allowed us to negate their preference to fight as a single unit and let us inflict heavy damage. Unfortunately we were unable to destroy most of the heavily damaged BCs cause they would run away before we could finish them . We opened a corridor for the ships to stream out but some we had to try to rush fuel carriers to as they were running out of matter or anti matter. That’s where the dominion decided to hit us. They played hit n run with our fuel tankers ( Probably got it from the cardassians). I had to pull some of my best commanders off the security assignments of holding the space open for escort duty protecting our fuel ships. We got our ships out but our fuel carriers paid a steep price. The fighter units would drop out of warp, rush the fuel carriers and try to kill or cripple them in one pass, then return later to finish the damaged ship. In most cases we were able to tow the fuel carrier to a point, unload its fuel, then abandon the ship after we set the auto destruct. Having to protect the transports forced us to leave gaps in our defensive corridor which let the damn fighters in in the first place. Took us 3 weeks to get everyone out and the Dominion was trying to play a war of attrition. I figure the Vorta opposing me was using either breen or cardassian tactics. It was definitely not the tactics of the dominion as we knew them
As a student of history and a fan of sci fi, this is a very good comparison.
Dominion Strategy - CTRL C, CTRL V
That was an amazing extremely fascinating video I enjoyed it very much
Not everyone knows DS9 trivia so well and I'm glad that you made this video. TL;DR: The opposite of Klingons in terms of what supports what and the level of recklessness.
Honestly, the Dominion always struck me as "tons of torpedo boats followed by a few heavy battleships" a shockingly effective strategy from the early battleship Era of IRL 🌎. Dominion attack ships are expendable, fast and well armed, but can't engage in long fights due to limited torpedoes and durability.
Cool. It seems the Dominion use organization similar to an airforce. 3 ships being a squadron, 2 squadrons is a wing and so on. The episode Valiant gives a clear indication that a Jemhadar wing is 6 ships. Of course it all depends on the mission, sometimes you might have 3 squadrons to a wing for a total of 9 fighters. By the same metric it seems the Federation started using similar fleet organization to counter the Dominion. Cruiser and Galaxy wings for example.
Quite possibly. Not all fleets have naval origins. Some come from armies others from cavalry, and indeed air forces.
In the Episode “The Jem Hadar” the fighter has pulse cannons
A big part of Dominion doctrine is the epic infiltration and sabotage that happens before large scale operations.
Probably the only guy to play Dominion as prime for ST Attack Wing.
Kinda wonder what the Jem Hadar would handle a fleet of ships with multiple pulse guns like in the Kelvin-verse.
I think kelvin style jem'hadar would look pretty cool.
I love this series! I would love to see logistic doctrines as well if it’s at all possible.
Might be a little dry for some. But it could be interesting.
Ahh yes it probably would be a little dry.
Great videos.
the dominion ships are all very similar as well, it seems that they make use of standardised parts on all their ships to make all the parts interchangeable. it means that they can keep going without having to worry about having lots of different parts like the federation does. To me as well, I think the dominion prioritises constant offensive action with fighters before sending in the cruisers or a battleship. Like the various battles fought in the eastern Solomon's against Henderson field, send in destroyers on constant raids to keep them pinned and occasionally commit cruisers, carriers, and battleships after brutal destroyer attacks to overwhelm them. Constant offensive action seems to be the main dominion strategy, push with the fighters while cruisers hold a defensive line that can be commit to weak points.
Nerd
I can see the similarity with current modern naval doctrines with aircraft carrier. Swarms of Jem'Hadar ships can effectively create a 1st level defense screen, then the battlecruisers do the rest of the legworks. Starfleet however, I can see very close resemblance with Napoleonic artillery doctrine. Torpedoes are vastly prioritized and, let's say, a 200 starfleet ships, organized in 100 light second area can be an unstoppable battering ram style juggernaut.
Yeah there is definitely a napoleonic influence behind starfleet. I suppose it's a give away to my influences
New to your Channel, forgive me. Great voice btw.
Please tell me @Venom Geek Media 98 you're a Star Fleet Battles fan.
I love your profiles and your use of real life battle planning and how you use it with Star Trek. I'm impressed with all this and just play your videos in playlist and just get drawn in. So thank you.
I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the Dominion doctrine is they have a Just-In-Time mentality with shipbuilding. In that they build and maintain a force they think they require, and if they are undersized, they depend on being able to build a fleet quickly.
To the point that I believe when the Federation and the Dominion first meant each other, the Federation had the larger fleet. This is due to the fact the Dominion taking two years before contacting the Federation in the most aggressive measure possible to tell them they are entering their space, leave or we will open fire. And that they don't put a large blockade fleet in front of the Wormhole to discourage travel. And finally, the convoy of ships coming every few weeks instead of every day or every week. For that is probably how long it took to build them and gather them in Dominion space.
Possibly or at least all dominion ships are already engaged on other assignments
Victory is life 🤔
No name. Screams disposable. I imagine the battle cruisers have an additional role for cargo to supply the white to the fighters in a battle group .
Dominion doctrine is a bit of an inverse to Starfleet doctrine. Instead of making it as complex as possible to make it redundant & better adaptable to any situation, the Dominion make it as simple as possible to make it redundant & better adaptable to any situation.
And the Dominion do not care about non-Changeling casualties unless they are losing and do not have the number or tech advantage to compensate for those losses.
The only conventional (non-Q/Organian/etc) factions in this time period that really invalidate this tactic are the Borg & Voth (and the Iconians & Hur'q if you include STO beta cannon).
I think if you bring STO timeline, then Tzenkethi tactic is probably the best to counter the Dominion tactic. Very powerful shields and small but very durable shield and hull repair unites that will repair bigger ships while frigates and battlecruisers have manoeuvrability of modern F1 cars, but most importantly, they have some of the most powerful forward-facing cannons in the galaxy, can stomp anything on their way.
Yea... Those things have the firepower of a UNSC supermac.
@@aiosquadron And annoyingly, my main is a Sci with very strong Gravity Well build (Legendary Glenn). Her tactic doesn't work on Tzenkethi because they are immune to gravity wells.
@@aiosquadron ; I don't know what faction you are referring too, but the UNSC supermacs have a yield of 51 gigatons. Most high yield late-24th/early-25th century weapons (excluding purpose-built planet-killers) used by the conventional powers in Star Trek tend to be in "Isotons" which is just technobabble for "what ever the plot/writers need it to be". But most apocryphal sources and calculations tend to have it usually in the mid-to-high megaton range. Still Star Trek weapons tend to be faster in fire-rate and have more 'ammo' in regard to phasers.
@@cmdrtianyilin8107 ; Tzenkethi ships are powerful yes. But they are not powerful enough to make up for their lack of numbers.
But yeah trying to taken down Tzenkethi battleships, especially in the Gon'cra Battlezone is such a pain. Thankfully my main is quite a tank against NPC ships.
Excellent video
The biggest flaw with the Dominion fleet is its strength of a uniform fighting fleet. Yes they have a strong small strike ship but it is just that a disposable fighter. The Jem'hadar lose them to a burst from the Rotarran (true that is a flagship BOP so probably upgraded) this means that they need huge numbers and as we see in DS9 when the numbers are on par they get slaughtered.
Fortunately the dominion can print those fighters out like there's no tomorrow
Reminds me of Star Destroyer and Tie Fighter tactics.
definitely some resemblance, and as others have stated, both seem to embrace the 'Tarkin Doctrine' but while the empire relies on overwhelming force. the dominion relies on overwhelming presence.
Im half way through the vid so if you cover this later ignore me. You should have mentioned the suicide tactics of the gem hadar fighters and how they would sacrifice themselves to protect the cruiser coardinating the squadron like flying into enemy weapons fire to protect a cruiser. Its nice to see these vids you just get none of this detail in star trek itself.
The dominion were unique out of all factionsin the war because they were not necessarily trying to win the war like the other powers their home was not at risk and they thought odo going home was more important than victory and as long as solids were killing solids its all good to them
sounds like a very 1940s soviet dotrcine
the soviets just threw bodies at the Germans until they drowned in Russian blood. the Dominion were much more deliberate about it.
thats something of a misapprehension, while that can be argued in the early part of the war. later on the soviets were very deliberate and methodical. making heavy use of artillery, which has always been a russian strong suite, even in the Napoleonic wars.
The BCs do not do well with a tactic I designed in the field. Using the 1st RRTF as a design point for a hard hitting, fast moving tactical unit we came up with a plan which defeats the Jem, Hadar units. The 6 attack ships be they Normandy or defiant class deliberately try to entangle the fighters. We keep the fighters busy since we can turn with them and match them. While this is going on a cloaked, and armored sovereign class waits and when the BC moves to support its fighters that’s when it gets pounded on. The Sovereign drops it’s cloak and then mercilessly unloads everything it has on the BC while using its superior maneuverability to accept or refuse combat. While this is going on the 6 defiant or Normandy class ships have been grinding the fighters down. Frequently as Normandy or Defiant class ships wipe a fighter or 2 out they drop out of the fight with a cloak or quick move and they hang above where they’re tough to pick up. As the BC calls back it’s fighters the freed up federation or Klingon attackers pounce on the returning fighters while the other attackers are giving chase. It frequently puts the dominion on the backfoot and forces them into the defensive where they’re not as good. It works
Yeaaa Boxing!!!.
I call the largest Jem'hadar ships Dreadnoughts, because they are MASSIVE warships, built to terrify the enemy, take a lot of punishment, and dish out more.
I find it interesting that the battlecruisers are the ones that act in support. Are there any instances of battlecruisers forming their own sort of division and pushing an advance? I feel like that’d be quite the hammerstrike.
Can be done on an ad-hoc basis battlecruisers and fighters split off to take different targets.
The Dominion are like Nazi Germany using Soviet tactics. Here's my reasoning why.
Soviet equipment philosophy was geared towards how they waged war. Make it good enough to get the job done and easy to fix so you can churn out loads of it and swarm the enemy. Why make something that'll last 6 years when it will be blown up in 6 months?
If you ever see a T-34 up close, the finish of the tank is shit, the edges are rough cut and there are gaps between the armour plates. Compare that the Nazi Germany where all pieces of equipment are over engineered and finished to a standard that is almost artisan.
The Dominion in turn have high quality equipment that they treat as though it was a throwaway item in the way they wage war.
more accurately late war soviet tactics, since the soviets turned a lot of the same ideas the germans had used against them in their offensives, with large motorized charges, the main difference is that the soviets did this across a wide front while the germans concentrated their forces.
Doctrine involves filling their consoles with rocks.
Venom Geek Media 98 you make Prince Charles sound like a chav.
🤣😅 I mean theres 'posh' and well spoken I prefer to think of myself as the latter
Every time you say "ships" in this video, I swear I hear "shits" instead lmao - totally fitting for Jem'Hadar Fighters tho lol
YES, the Klingon "Blitz" (Blitzkrieg)
Are you using Gratuitous Space Battles or another modded game to make the visuals?
Nope. Just jpegs and pngs
8:38 is that just copy and pasting in basically Microsoft Paint? Or is that a video game or strategic program?
I make the graphics in MS publisher
I know its fiction but I always wondered why the federation never built missiles or mines during the war with the dominion off of quantum torpedo tech only orders of magnitude stronger/ more powerful. Like the michael eddington story with cloaked missiles .
Minefields were definitely used. But only in seige situations which were rare in a war of maneuver
Needs longer recharge, watches one of them shoot the Defiant six times before they fire back.
yeah... they might not be full strength shot. but i think its the best explanation for their pack tactics
Cheers.
The Dominion can manufacturer ship faster than others Empires that why they don't care about losses 😢
I misread the title as “Decepticon”, and the purple filter on the ships didn’t help lmao
But is it so simple that a Kazon can do it?
Surely the real question is can pakleds do it?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Pakled Strong, Pakled smartest there ever is! We fools even Chancellor Gowron.
I would imagine that the simplicity is it's biggest weakness. By having only 3 ship types, only two of which are regularly used, it's also easier to formulate counters both in ship design and tactics. Having to deal with lots of little ships? Spam out Sabers and Defiants. Problem solved.
yeah and we'll definitely see that later in the war. increasing numbers of specialized ship types to counter the dominion fleet.
"Spam out Sabers and Defiants. Problem solved."
Not really, though, because the Dominion can also spam out a near-endless number of ships, and (unlike every Alpha Quadrant power) they can also spam out crew for those ships, and ground troops.
Every Starfleet ships destroyed results in a loss of life that cannot be easily replaced, given that it takes years to graduate Starfleet Academy. Meanwhile, the Dominion can grow a new batch of combat ready Jem'Hadar in a couple of months.
@@CorvusBelli01 That would depend on the attrition vs production rate. If Starfleet can build and crew 1 Defiant/Saber for the Domion's 3 "Bug" gunships, it's still manageable if the attrition rate is 4 or 5 to 1.
The attrition rate is probably even higher than that since we've seen the Defiant chew up a whole wing of gunships without breaking a sweat. Even a TNG/DS9 era Bird of Prey can single handedly take on a wing of gunships (the DS9 episode where Alexander comes back) and hold its own despite not being nearly as powerful as the Defiant.
@@0utc4st1985 Starfleet were losing thousands of people in battles, with no way to quickly replace their losses. The 7th Fleet lost 98 ships and their crew in a matter of hours, and the crew of DS9 mention that the weekly casualty lists contain thousands of names; even if Starfleet could build replacement ships in a week it wouldn't matter, since they can't replace the crews that quickly.
It is explicitly stated time and time again in DS9 that the Federation simply cannot compete with the Dominion's ability to replace their combat losses; one side has to spend years training new crews and troops, while the other side grows their soldiers en masse.
"If Starfleet can build and crew 1 Defiant/Saber for the Domion's 3 "Bug" gunships"
That's the point, though; Starfleet CAN'T replace crew that effectively. A Defiant-class ship needs a crew of 50; where are the Federation getting 50 new, trained officers from every time they lose a small ship, or the 500 officers needed to crew an Akira-class? The Dominion, on the other hand, can grow new Jem'Hadar from infant to battle-ready in a matter of weeks.
@@CorvusBelli01 This is because most of Starfleet still consisted of much older, more crew intensive designs like the Excelsior or Miranda. Not only did those ships have a much higher crew count than the Saber or Defiant, they also weren't as effective. Besides because the Saber and Defiant classes are small they can be built quickly. The crew replacements just come down having a big enough training program to accommodate the production schedule, entirely doable since the Federation had a population of what, 100+ billion?
@venom geek media, in which month was yulgrun captured by the ferengi n handed over to starfleet, you not meantion anything from what starfleet learn from him in the month by month videos
difficult to tell with a lot of mid season episodes. DS9 isn't good at keeping stardates.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Well depends which month you used for the dominion attempt at peace talks as that episode 9 n yulgrun capture is episode 10 n the romulan entry to war is 9 episodes after so depends on the 2 events to which month you allocate n put it between the 2
If the Jem'Hadar fighter is a "fighter" why isn't the Defiant a "fighter" and not a gunship. They are of similar size after all. I think DEFIANT actually fills the niche of a fighter for Starfleet and not the throw away ships you see in DS9.
Fighter is more of a name than an actual classification.
A polaron is what they call an electron as it passes through matter. So the Dominion beam weapons are electrical based. The more you know. LOL
Now, I'm seeing Jem'hadar using hand-crank generators to produce particles for their weapons in an emergency situation..... 😉
@@johnharrison6745 LOL
@@johnharrison6745 It makes sense though. Their beams fire a charged matter stream and the polerons are sent through it.
Really surprised how much VGM shit on the people who requested this video. Maybe they just wanted a dedicated episode created by you?
That was not my intention. Whenever I decide to make a video I've got to choose between what I'm interested in as well as what's popular. Sometimes videos fall through the cracks
2nd
Im like 666....
Feck.
It's shit. Maybe not as shit as the rest of Star Trek...but really not all that much better, if at all. What they know about space combat, a quadriplegic could juggle.
seriously i can tell you putting on the overly posh accent its embarrassing stop it.
yeah im really not though.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Every few words you say sounds highly exaggerated, like when Americans are trying to poorly mimic a British accent. You are putting it on a bit, No British person speaks that exaggerated anywhere.
@@mn5499 im interested now? timestamp an Example.