Why The Klingons Can't Win.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2024
- in today's video i delve into the History of this iconic warrior race. and examine why despite multiple attempts the klingons are unable to defeat their enemies and conquer the alpha quadrant.
from the 22nd century through the wars and crisis of the 23rd century and into the dominion war, the klingons consistently fall short of their goals. are the causes external in an ever changing quadrant or are they embedded into the very essence of the empire?
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for those interested here's the clip of the almighty Rich Evans th-cam.com/video/ri7v-utIcvY/w-d-xo.html
People often forgot that Klingons do not actually create that much tech. They just salvage the tech they get from whatever civilization they conquer and update it in between. Also, even though Klingons on Disco are Old, that doesn't mean their tech is out to date. Even in our world some old tech is much more sturdy and effective. Example the old Nokia phone series. Yes, they're not hightech in today's standards but their sturdy even more than most new phones and still usable. Same goes for some war planes. The F14 and F16 is a good example.
War is also a factor. History is witness in the fact that technology advances so fast during these times. So in a way not surprised when the Disco Klingons almost won. But to be honest didn't like how they look and the way they design the bird of prey.
I know that was Rich Evans face. That’s why I clicked on the video. Well, actually the premise is interesting to. Nice video. Here’s a subscribe.
Also, the Federation was huge from the moment of its creation. It went from being a single system with a scattering of colonies to a coalition of four alpha quadrant powers probably somewhat on par with the Klingons and Romulans. The comparison with Germany in Russia is apt. They were winning and winning and taking area after area but somehow there was just more they had to take and the enemy always came at them with a new army. They were doomed to lose the war of attrition and could not win a lightening war because there was too much to take.
Why The Klingons Can't Win?
Ans = Because they're still clinging on to useless traditions and methods.
I think one key issue the you may have overlooked was the time between the star gazer area of picard as well I belive following the era with the enterpirse c. were they were changeing into a peace fleet. they did not have the military infulstructure of the original movies with kirk and crew. undiscovered country showed us they were moth balling the military department of the star fleet.
This may explain the lack of resorces we see in the universe of yeasterdays Enterpirse. this may be the reason for the greater resorces of the klingion empire. though I agree the federation are good at planing atrition wars when they need to. sadly though this may be. they do have many good officers.
good examples would be as you said in the video in the video the four years war or the wars we saw in post and pre DS9.
I love your videos men keep them going.
Few ways to explain Yesterday Enterpise timeline first possible war go extremely will for Kligion Empire I mean extremely will. The Kligion could likely pull off the stun if they extremely luckly. Combine of commando board parties in fleet battle starship about cloak another starship provide protect parts shield starship shields while cloak might help some degree and be extremely luckily many major battles. More likely answer is Borg and combine KLigions bring UFP brink of defeat Borg attack real heavy damage UFP even became survival threat interest UFP millinery tech . Caption Pircard tell Caption USS Enterprise C real reason he send her back was because of the Borg. He afraid enough effect timeline as it was.
The Klingons were focused on current threats. It was the Romulans who saw what Earth and it's friends could become. Klingons are pragmatic, Romulans are calculating.
Yep. The klingons are constantly focused on what is. While the romulans are planning for the future.
Ironically - it was BECAUSE of the Romulans that the four founding races created the Federation. And centuries later, is was again because of them that the Federation and Klingons became allies. Sometimes the Romulans are too shady for their own good lol.
The thing is that Romulans aren't very *rational*. They are super paranoid about the future, and pretty much every scheme of theirs is a knee-jerk reaction at what might be.
Unlike their Vulcan counterparts, they're all about emotion, and that *feeling* that every other power is out to get them. They are sneaky and underhanded, but they aren't exactly N-steps ahead or anything. They see something that looks like a threat, and just sneak behind it and shiv it in the back with little foresight.
I wouldn't say they plan for the future as much as they are scared about the future.
@@SergioLeRoux, they're also control freaks. Unlike their Vulcan brothers, they have and revel in emotion, but they seek to control it and view public loss of control as shameful. This has led to a deep-seated NEED to control as much of their universe as they can, directly or indirectly.
The klingons are simply focused on an excuse to fight.
The way Picard fights in Yesterday’s Enterprise has alway bothered me. It looks like he’s pulling his punches and focused on maneuvering. He hardly uses torpedos and holds fire at the beginning for way too long in my opinion. Yeah he was trying to protect the E-C, but that doesn’t mean you make your take punches without dealing them back in kind.
My point is, that if most of the captains of Star Fleet were fighting that way, it’s no wonder the Federation was losing the war.
I recreated that fight and playing g ED still lise but did better then show
@@paulrasmussen8953 I recreated the battle in the old Activision game Starfleet Command 3. I was able to win the battle, but took heavy damage. Still, my ship was the only ship not in pieces at the end. :-)
@@joestewart6027 been years have to make another attempt
@@joestewart6027 Were you guarding a battered Ambassador class too that if lost would end the mission?
Joe, excellent point. It reminds me of another video I saw somewhere on TH-cam that blamed Spock (unfairly) for the loss of Wolf 359. But it made an excellent point that Starfleet after Praxis entered a demilitarized phase with led to the humiliating performance at Wolf 359, but conceivably losing a Yesterday's Ent alternate timeline. Venom has done a good job reminding us that the anti-Borg Starfleet ships were needed
The problem is the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. are empires. They are basically one dominant race and several subjugated races who are relegated to secondary roles or suppressed in order that they can't rebel or break away from the empire. With the federation you have a bunch or races all working toward a common goal, hence nearly all the members will generally try to participate to the best of their ability. I don't know how dominant humans are in the federation (in terms of numbers), but even if there are dominant, they are friendly toward and encourage the growth of other people's rather than try to suppress them or feel threatened by them.
HUmans do make up at least most of Starfleet's ranks. The thing I love about the Federation vs the Klingons or Romulans when it comes to war is that the Romulans and Klingons shoudl a war break out already have a military structure in place, thus they rally quickly to a conflict, if it's a common enemy it's not so bad, but if it's a rare or completly new enemy then ussually the enemy may have somethign about them that gives them an edge and the Klingons or Romulans need to advance their tech. The Federation on the other hand only has Starfleet as the closest thing to a military, and while Starfleet can fight a war and it's ships have weapon and defence systems, it's mainly still a Sciemtific organization, thus it's ships arn't as tactically located as the Klingons or Romulans might be, simply put an enemy attack could easily be a little devastating by catching Starfleet off guard, this costs them in the short term, but their strength is th elong term, they'll throw what ships they can at the threat wrackign up losses often alongside other allies like the Klingons, but in the long term what it lacks in numbers, fleet doctrine, strategy, and skill, it makes up for with ingenuity, give Starfleet enough time and they can use their Scientific ability to either whip up new tech, strategies, combat capable or generally more powerful ships, and finally hit back much harder, often acting as the logistical support and centeral leadership of any alliance against a common enemy. SImply put the Klingons and Romulans stand a better chance in the short term, but Starfeelt wins out in the long term. They also keep advancing and testing new starships and tech unwittingly making larger more powerful ships better suited to war.
Disco is another timeline....that's my story and I'm sticking to it
You are a ... generous man! I wouldn't even call it that.
I'd say Discovery/SNW is someone's inaccurate representation of the period before Kirk. Probably a propaganda tool in the 33rd/34th Century for the Deification of Michael Burnham and Spock...who weren't really as emotional as they seem.
Never seen it. No plan to do so. 🧀
You are correct. Strange New worlds did a time travel episode and revealed Romulan agents pushed the Eugenics war back 50years. This means Discovery/SNW are in an entirely different timeline to TOS.
What's really important is the fact that Starfleet builds Exploration Ships that are on Par with most others "Empires" War Ships.
Watching TOS gives the impression that the only way for exploratory missions to succeed is with a heavily armed ship with a capable crew because every other star system seems to be inhabited by God like entities, dangerous ancient artifacts, unstable mad scientists working on deadly and illegal projects, strange and hostile alien life forms, temporal anomalies, hallucinatory and psychic super beings, and any number of other threats.
"Exploration Ships" 😉
@@cb-gz1vl"exploration" indeed. 😂
Praxis's destruction really seems like it was the nail in the coffin for Klingons as a major power. IF they are going to recover, they need to stop with their ideas of no running away in battle and need to employ more 'dishonourable' tactics like hacking enemy starships, not wasting ships for short gains and they need to have more oversight for their captains. And they need to start developing their trade and working class.
Trying to understand discovery and discuss it's merits is like trying to discuss the merits of a square wheel.
More like triangular. Or possibly something radical like a flat bar. Discovery may well have been the worst TV show I've ever watched, only other contender being Black Lightning.
@daveharrison4697 The first season attack on titan is the worst thing I have ever seen, but both of those are definitely up there.
The justification for the Klingons winning the war in Yesterday's Enterprise is found in the line from Guinan, "40 billion people have already died". The only way the war would have fatalities that large is if several major worlds were completely devastated by the conflict. We know from the raid on the Dominion shipyards at Monac IV, the Klingons were willing to instigate massively destructive "natural" disasters (in that case a massive solar flare) to eliminate enemy infrastructure. It's not hard to imagine they countered the Federations logistical advantages early in the conflict with similar methods. This would also explain why Starfleet in the alternate timeline explicitly "needs every ship it can get". That statement implies a long running inability to recoup war losses, which can only be explained by a major loss of infrastructure.
I think people always underestimate how sneaky and clever the Klingons can be. Everyone thinks of them as dumb savage warriors. But look at who actually rises to power in the Klingon Empire. The three major Klingon villains in TOS are all cunning foes who can match wits with Kirk. Kruge in ST3 is basically a spy who's trying to steal the Federation's most advanced weapons. In TNG, the Duras are the most powerful house, not because they're warriors but because they're rich, they're sneaky, and they use every tool they can acquire. Even after the Duras fell out of grace, the Duras sisters were trying to regain power through the acquisition of technology rather than by recruiting warriors.
In the comic of blood will tell: The human/klingon hybrid were weak in term of physical strength to their pure breed brother and sister and look down upon but in such humiliate, they took the initiative. Filling the rank of klingon military and lead the charge for empire great expansion and earnings seats in the high council. Even at one point play the roulmns much like Duras being used. Klingon lost its edge in its military as the hybrid either die off or fade away.
Yet their greatest weakness was a corruption in their government. Let a traitors Duras remained in power. Gowron wanting personal glory. Letting blind honor keep bad leaders in charge.
The war in Disco was pathetic. When they said that the Federation was losing when Disco returned, it was just an excuse to show how everything and everyone relies on the messiah Michel Burnham.
It was a lazy copy of the Earth Minbari war from Babylon 5.
If you thought that then you must not have understood because it was explained quite clear…
A war between the Federation and the Klingons would likely end up similar to WWII with the Americans and Japanese. The Klingons start off strong with a powerful offense smashing the Federation ships more suited for exploring. But then the federation's industrial might kicks in and start pumping out better fighting ships while the Klingons overexert themselves. Disco got it very wrong, and Yesterday's Enterprise was plot instructed in order to justify the sacrifice of the Enterprise C.
This is basically what happened in the old FASA 4 years war. The Klingons hit hard, but the Federation quickly gains an advantage (against Axanar) and then develops tech to fight the war on their terms.
exactly the federation has a level of research and development that the klingons would never be able to match
@@warwolf88 Well when it's your ship captains encountering the wierdest shit out in deep space and you're organization is mainly Science and exploration focused your R&D capabilities are certainly way better then a people who barely anyone wantss to do anything but be a warrior.
Also, to give the Klingons more credit. I wanted to add this fact. After the Kitomer Accords, a large part of the more military faction of Starfleet disappeared overnight when caught in the attempted assassination of the President of the Federation. That included the Chief of Starfleet Command. So any allies may have been forced to resign and for a few decades at least, as a militarized Federation would be unpopular seeing how such mindset led to military dictatorship, Starfleet is not led by those military-minded, but those who focus on Starfleet's non-military programs like diplomacy, science, engineering, and medical. So, for a time, Starfleet was led by people who while have some military experience if they served on a Starship, just not enough to make the right decisions that led to Starfleet being bogged down by minor powers in the early to mid 24th Century. In fact, I argue that it is not until the Late 24th Century that Starfleet shifted to a more military stance due to the increasing number of hostilities and the Peace faction failing to keep the peace.
realistically, neither klignons, romulans or cardassians would be able to defeat the Federation, neither of the 3 could breed fast enough to keep up with the sheer amount of manpower the Federation has from the hundreds of member worlds, all 3 combined might have a shot but not individually, the dominion could beat the federation because they use clones that mature in days.
Depends on when. The federation doesn't have much manpower in the 23rd century.
Only if you gloss over the fact the klingons have a massive slave empire. Basically all their logistical needs are met by slaves the the Klingons are the ruler/officer class. They are massively evil TNG really glosses over this fact to try to make them more likeable.
@@Laidbackjames1 yeah because otherwise it would reflect badly on the federation.
I like star trek but I feel like it does a poor job at showing a war at the scale between the federation and any of the other factions. Realistically the federation and it's enemy no matter its size can tap into what virtually is an infinite source of resources. Entire planets in various stages of civilization (colonies to entire civilizations). In the situation where the vessels of either empire are taken down to a point we're they are useless your left with a bunch of planets which in reality unless you decide to go on a genocide that would make, Hitler, Stalin and Mao blush, then you can't possibly take them over. Maybe the colonies but definitely not the other planets. First you'd have to land your troops uncontested, second you'd have to supply them and you'd also need entire ships with nothing but thousands and thousands of ground infantry and vehicles ready to fight for what could easily be hundreds of years to take over a single planet and that's some massive logistics even with replicators on mind.
Now I am obviously overthinking things and I'm using Warhammer 40k in my mind as a better example at explaining the level of logistics, resources and human sacrifices just to take over a world and in the end it's all useless because the enemy comes back laters and chaos begins again.
@@nurgleschosen8145 or just blockade a planet into submission, orbital strikes on major infrastructure for good measure. The best resource are in the asteroid belts anyway, just keep the planet in a patrol chart until they surrender.
Still, that's why the federation is stronger, they get everyone willingly
I do believe the Blitzkrieg campaign is what General Chang proposed in the old 90's game Klingon Academy. Somewhere on youtube someone put all the cut scenes into like a 2 hour movie. You should check it out if you have not. The story in the game is a pregual to Undiscovered Country.
Yes and really is.a.good tactic
Yeah it's a great game.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 but did you watch the "movie"? It was fun
The thing is ...
If war is math, and the math checks out, then the Klingons not only COULD, but outright WOULD have won that war.
But like the saying goes; "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice ... THERE IS!"
So just like how by pure chance, one night Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf the Grey meet at an inn, setting off the events of The Hobbit, and eventually leading to the Last Alliance winning the War against Sauron ... the whole war is put out of wack by this funny guy called James T. Kirk being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
So what you're saying is for the 22nd century, it would take a long road getting from there to here. 😁
You can head-cannon the Yesterday's Enterprise battle into the series with how at that point in the episode Picard was already convinced he must ensure the Enterprise-C made it back into the rift, and that what happened to the Enterprise-D didn't matter. In his own words, "this timeline will cease to exist," so my theory is that he could have done more with tactics against the Klingons, but instead was more "playing" with them to draw out the fight, targeting ships in an inefficient, but funner way (he got to blow up one of them,) and then repositioning the Enterprise-D to make sure the Enterprise-C took as few hits as possible, even at the expense of his own ship, because he knew it didn't matter what happened to the Enterprise-D.
That is not your head cannon. Its what happened. The D could have run at any time, it was markedly faster at warp. After plastering that kvort, the D could have just trolled away to fight another day....
The Klingons could only realistically beat the federation in the age of archer, anything beyond that would be beyond them because the Federation rapidly closes the tech gap and has insane industrial capacity. Even with sensor screens, the Klingons couldn't beat the federation in the discovery war because of the Tech gap is now against them in offensive and defensive capabilities. From this point on, its always the same: Federation has better quality guns and shields, the Klingons are really sneaky and have numbers. But even when they have the numbers advantage the Klingons trip on their own culture of houses; the Klingons have more ships but worse technology, quantity beats quality (Unless quality gets batter by a huge margin) if you have enough quantity which the Klingons don't have. Then starfleet stars to chug out Excelsior's and Mirandas and the Klingons starts to lose the numbers gap, they still have the numbers advantage but its so much closer.
At every turn, the Klingons trip over their own system and flounder. The Klingons could never win the yesterdays enterprise war, sure they could damage the federation, but never destroy it. They could try to fight a war only on the surface of planets by using cloaked Brels to physical land on remote locations of colonies and dump about troops, but starfleet would always have orbital supremacy and would easily crush raids like that, plus its easy to counter and would only work once or twice before the Federation does something to fix it.
Their tunnel vision in war works in the early years, but when the federation gets a plane and flies over the mountain instead of through it then you're tunnel is your tomb.
I believe that Klingon Academy does go into this in a simulated war against the federation in the Naval Academy. The Klingons goal was the destruction of Earth in a one time blitz but before they you perform destruction of logistics and support before the initial attack.
Thing was the Klingons choice of battle was a quick war and it was obvious the Klingons were worried a war that went to long would have resulted in the Klingons losing.
@Jim Ryan I agree with your analysis, but I think the superiority of the Klingon navy persists up until the 4 Years War. What Enterprise gets right and is communicated so masterfully in the Axanar Fan film is that Klingon ships are in a word TOUGH. Shields are tougher, armor is tougher, weapons are just more robust (battle tactics more seasoned). Enterprise is outmatched in literally every engagement with a Klingon ship it encounters and I think this makes sense with the militaristically minded Klingons and the exploration minded Starfleet behind them by something like 200 years. Moreover, Starfleet would also be technologically behind as the Federation in its infancy in my mind was only nominally an alliance. I’d imagine that the respective member big powers were STILL holding back their best tech for their OWN homeworlds’ navy’s exclusive use and so Starfleet ships would be underpowered in most departments - shields, phasers, propulsion, sensors. I mean, would YOU just give up your best tech to your neighbors after signing a piece of paper? Just what kind of push then would have been necessary to FINALLY get the member worlds to go all in?
Here’s where the Axanar story again masterfully fills the gap. For me it makes sense that the Federation is getting steamrolled. Klingons are battle tested in better, more rugged ships against the Orions, Gorn, and maybe even Romulans from time to time. Who’s the Federation fighting? And what’d the old guy say? “Their entire civilization is a monument to the art of war” Gods, what a great line. The disaster of the 4 Years War FINALLY gets the member planets to put their money where their mouth is and give up their best tech to create a new ship (Ares and maybe even Constitution) designed primarily for combat (yes, yes it breaks established canon but it works). Every major race gets an Ares class crewed entirely with their own species (just as it says in the Fam film and in canon) so they ALL gave up a bit of their own best tech to make it work, but they ALL got access to EVERYONE ELSE’S too.
So, for my head canon the Federation doesn’t really ever begin to match the Klingons until the mid-way point of the Four Years War and they stay basically on parity until the introduction of the Excelsior class where the Federation begins to pull away and never really looks back. I think Starfleet ships actually become the product of cross-species production in a way they never were before that because of this conflict - Starfleet ships being majorly a human affair up until this time.
By DS9 I doubt the Klingons have the numerical advance anymore (or even numerical parity). In the Dominion War & Post-Dom War era all the Klingons really have left in terms of advantages are cloaks and a willingness to use more aggressive tactics.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 Supposedly the Klingons after the Dominion war were actually fairly ruined as a military power after the end losing a significant amount of military personal and ships in the conflict. The only reason they likely didn't get steamrolled by the Romulans was due to them being involved in the conflict as well and also Hobius which would ignite years after the conflict effectively breaking the back of the Star Empire and of course the Federation was licking its own wounds, and then itself was gutted a sizable portion of tis fleet by the romulan attack that happened during the Hobius event.
How would you rate the Klingons By STO if they followed that path? would you say they still a power that would have lost?
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent ; In the STO timeline, Martok is Chancellor for 18 years from 2375 to 2393 with Worf as essentially his un-official Vice-Chancellor. His pro-Federation views and reformist policies would have likely helped rebuild up the Klingon Empire, and there would have likely been many tech exchanges between them and the UFP.
By the time J'mpok came into by in 2393, it wouldn't be until 2399 that relations began to seriously deteriorate. J'mpok was not as skilled a military leader as ego led him to believe.
The 3rd/4th Klingon-Federation War in lasted roughly from 2405 to late 2409. During that time, aside from a few deep raids and ambushes in UFP space, most of the wat consisted of a WW1-esk stalemate with only a handful of border systems being passed back and forth.
I would say the only reasons they did so well they did was due to 1.) some earlier reform policies under Martok; 2.) the allowing for the first time some alien species, mainly the Gorn, Orions, Nacsicaans, Letheans, and Ferasans into the KDF (Klingon Defense Force) to increase troop and ship numbers (though it still wouldn't be enough to match Starfleet); and 3.) the fact that Starfleet/UFP was preoccupied with not just the Klingons during this time, but also the Romulan Star Empire / Tal'Shiar under Sela & Hakeev, the rouge Cardassian "True Way", the rouge Alpha Quadrant Jem'hadr under Lars, and internal infiltration by Species 8472 / the Undine (due to themselves being tricked by the Iconians) who likely actively prolonged to war to weaken both powers. (The Borg would not get involved until early 2409 near the end of the conflict).
In a straight 1v1 match up though, the Klingons would still likely lose.
Without a doubt, the early Archer period was the best time. I personally think that the Klingon's tech advantage might be greater than you think; earth ships surviving due to training and luck more than defensive and offensive systems. The Orions being the logical main adversary for them, among others, it's not surprising that earth might be ignored. Plus, the Vulcans were the local regional power which stood in their way. The tech and size of the Vulcan ships and fleet making them an adversary to be respected. After the Federation founding, the general tech level of the nascent starfleet would ramp up.
The Four Years War being the last, best time to attack before being outpaced by the federation. The Klingons still having some tech advantages. It was still an empire vs. what had become a conglomerate of regional powers that was only beginning to truly believe in itself.
Yesterday's Enterprise only makes sense if 1. Starfleet zigged when it should have zagged. 2. Other powers were in play. Yes, what if the Romulans were helping? What if the Cardassians were still fighting hard? What if the Ferengi and Breen had joined in? The Federation being matched by an alliance of their enemies?
Starfleet and the Federation might have been slow to respond? If the best starships were basically upgraded Galaxy and Nebula classes, then Starfleet would have had some serious trouble. Those ships were also, and remained, rare in the main timeline, so it's not a stretch to imagine that a Starfleet where many of the ships are outdated Miranda and Excelsior variants might be unprepared.
I like the Star Trek 6 Klingons and Chang, he could have found a way, he’s like a Klingon Thrawn. If anyone has not seen it check out Klingon academy.
People are obsessed with the blue guy they are far more effecient and competent officers besides Thrawn.
@@laisphinto6372 but they’re probably too obscure to use in an analogy about Sci Fi military masterminds. He’s written more patchy lately, the first new Thrawn book was good but he’s a let down in Rebels and the later books, it’s because he doesn’t really have much to do in many ways. Zhan also just makes him invincible and you can read the gushing he has over a rather simple character in many respects. Thrawn is not as good or complex a character as his inspirations, Sherlock Holmes for example.
@@davidreeves4556 In some of the older Legends books by Zahn - Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future - rogue Imperial Moffs try to make it seem that Thrawn has come back from the dead 20 years after his death. While some in the New Republic are ready to just roll over in fear at the possibility, many of the main characters who actually fought against him originally (who still accept that yes, it might actually be Thrawn back from the dead) say that he was very good, but he was never as unstoppably good as the Republic Senate fears. Thrawn loses quite a few times in those early books by Zahn, but Zahn writes him as being good at knowing when to cut his losses and retreat in good order.
Eh, just use the John M. Ford Klingons, they could probably hand Thrawn his ass.
To paraphrase WhatifFacts: *"the Klingons could have won as long as they weren't Klingons".*
The could have won if they had fixed their internal issues … in fact the Klingon Empire needed to be at some sort of War in order to maintain internal stability, long term peace caused them to turn on themselves … a weak enemy that's able to soak up the hotheaded troublemakers (and get them killed) keeps the Empire stable.
Ezri Dax was brutally correct about the Klingon Empire dying due to internal corruption and hypocrisy about honour.
{I wrote that before the ending of your video}.
The Klingon Empire were warlike just to keep their broken society functioning, without a external enemy to unite them they tear themselves apart.
If the Klingons had competent Leadership based on merit and duty, they would have been far more *effective.
That's why a Klingon Federation alliance and eventually the Klingons joining the Federation makes them greater than just the sum of their parts.
Klingons with their government changed by cultural contamination - as demonstrated by Martok, a great leader that was installed by _a Federation officer_ ("acting on his own"). Becoming like the Federation would save them, something that Eddington would be cynically amused by.
*Klingons have a lot of biological advantages that would make them incredibly successful as a society if they could only learn to control themselves.
Imagine if *Vulcan mental discipline became a fad* with the Klingons !! - it could be argued that the Klingons were a bit like the Vulcans before they learnt to control their warlike nature.
Klingons, besides their physical toughness and resistance to long term injury (having a spare set of internal organs is great for avoiding health issues… perhaps Klingon doctors are so bad because they don't need to be good?) which reduces disability due to being able to recover from serious injury … diseases also seem to be less of a issue, except for the Augment virus…. , … [See below]
But they have some other seriously useful biological differences.
They mature to adulthood in half the time Humans do and have twice the lifespan of Humans.
_That is a huge advantage._
Imagine if that was applied to Humanity; raising children no longer becomes the centrepiece of most of your active adulthood, they take 10 years to raise and are able to go to school at 2-3 years.
Meanwhile you're an adult at say 11 and then have 80 years of peak performance in which to work on your career ect and another few decades of being older and senior, but still keeping it together till around 120, and then living to 140-160.
And of that time, you only have to take 10 years out to raise a family, and only a year of the kid being a helpless baby/toddler.
It is perhaps telling that the period when Klingons were most successful was after the Augment virus had run rampant and most of the Klingons were contaminated with Human DNA.
That's when _they played it smart._
In beta canon the altered Klingons took control of the Empire and ran it more as a communist style govt instead of a bunch of honour obsessed warring Houses.
That was their Human side.
But eventually a way to reverse the genetic mutations (instead of just making it non fatal and not contagious) was developed and the Klingons reverted back into their honour obsessed idiocy.
What if?. … What if the post cure Klingons were living a parody of the original culture [which could also explain Chakotay's Native American beliefs being so inaccurate], having had to rebuild it from records after losing their Human genes.
And a TNG episode idea; a lost colony of Klingons that are still "Human-like".
You missed out on Klingon reproduction, humans can barely have child up to their mid thirties and with social out looks on birth control and cost of raising children current modern human bare have two or three children. I know a few people in their seventies that had around a dozen siblings. Klingon women are baby factories.
Yeah I call B.S on the whole aging thing. If they grow up twice as fast they should live half as long. The writers just did that so they could have an angsty Alexander.
The augment revolution would explain why they acted so much smarter in TOS.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Star Trek: Phase Two, a series put together by an amateur film company which brought in original cast members from time to time. Shows found on YT.
There was a Klingon episode which brought up the Augment issue where the actor playing Kirk was trading insults with a Klingon commander/ politician.
Klingon, " My species was infected by human DNA traits."
Kirk, " Only the best parts."
Klingon," It made many of my people conniving cowards !"
Kirk," Conniving cowards only act when they Know they will win without any cost of danger to themselves."
Klingon," Un huh, cowards do seem to have a habit of sticking around and winning against all odds that would normally say other wise."
@@venomgeekmedia9886 "If they grow up twice as fast they should live half as long." What? That is unbelievably stupid. First off, they aren't from Earth, second that doesn't even apply to life that evolved on Earth.
@21:20 Nowhere is this more evident than when Chancellor Gowron sends General Martok on missions he knew Martok would lose because Gowron feared Martok's growing popularity. He was prepared to sacrifice dozens of warships and thousands of warriors just to secure his political position. What kind of culture produces such a leader? Ezri was right. Had she not shamed Worf into taking action, the Dominion War would have ended in disaster.
The Klingons are warriors with heavily armoured ships with the most powerful guns they can come up with. They have the warp tech they got from the Hur'q and cloaking tech they got from the Romulans. They're an empire, so presumably have subject races that would add to their tech and resources (though the only ones I recall ever being mentioned were the Kriosians). Alas, they're also plagued by infighting, and while we see how modern Klingon society treats scientists in Suspicions, the Federation is a coalition of - as of the late 24th century - nearly 200 governments heavily invested in scientific development. They quickly leave them behind technologically. Only a treaty between the Federation and Romulans protects the Klingons advantage with cloaking tech. Once they were passed technologically the only chance I see of them beating the Federation was during the Federations slightly complacent years - ironically caused partially by peaceful relations with the Klingons - of the early to mid 24th century when the Romulans had taken themselves off the board, and the Federation had no comparable enemies...just boarder skirmishes with the Cardasians, Telarians, Tholians and Gorn and tense relations with the Sheliac and such. Once the Federation had to up their defensive military game with the Borg and Dominion (and in Star Trek Online the Iconians and Hur'q), I'd say the time had passed (I don't think it would've gone well for the Klingons if the brief wars with the Federation that they were manipulated into by the Dominion and then Iconians had gone the distance). For the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline I just assume there were other issues we didn't get to learn of.
No feds have better guns and shield, most Klingon wins are from wolf packs. Their guns are nearly as good as the Federation but their shields and armor are weaker. The fact that Klingons can have more ships is ridiculous. Feds should be able to field more ships than anyone.
@@ZeroFallout1 the federation fleet have a bigger territory and mission profile to cover. It means that it's difficult to have ready fleets in battle formation like the Klingons, at least early in a conflict
The Klingon's economy cannot support a long drawn out war. Just like the Imperial Japanese and Nazis in WW II, they cannot win a long war of attrition. They need to focus on short limited (but violent) wars and then they convince the other side to give up because the objective being fought over is not worth the effort and cost. These were the tactics used by Prussia (and later Imperial Germany) and Imperial japan. Kaiser Wilhelm miscalculated in WW I and General Togo (etal) miscalculated in WW II and started a war that they could not end quickly.
The importance of maneuver warfare.
General Tojo I asume. Togo was the admiral at tsushima
@@venomgeekmedia9886
Not just that. No susccessful long-term economy is based on a war economy (focused on war materials rather than expanding teh economy). A weaker power needs to initiate AND conclude a short war before the more powerful economy transitions into a war economy and out produces the weaker power, much like what happened between US and Japan in WWII. Japan had local parity with Russian during Russo-Japanese War and the US at the start of WW II. Japan defeated the Russian Imperial Navy in detail, first the Pacific fleet, then the Baltic Fleet. The US massively outbuilt the Japanese in ships in WW II.
th-cam.com/video/l9ag2x3CS9M/w-d-xo.html
@@sovietdominion
Yes, thanks. Not the most attentive at 1 am in the morning.
I agree with you i saw tye klingons as similar to the japanese in some ways like they could cause mayhem for a year but the usa will bring their industrial might into effect and end the war. I think the romulans were made to look this way too in the original series. The klingons were even called the defense force like the Japanese army was the defense force after the war. The klingons were shown to be resource poor so they maintianed these similarities as trek went on.
In canon, Klingons ALWAYS we're on the verge of defeating the federation in all conflicts as shown in parallel universes, alt timelines and "what if" scenarios. Just because the treaty of Algeron was signed and the khitomer accords, don't sleep on their military power of prowess. Great vid!
Also, the Klingons weren't trading tech with the romulans, they were actual allies.. ikr!
The klingons were winning in yesterday's enterprise. Because if the entire fleet was fighting like the enterprise. Then they weren't firing back until they had already taken critical damage.
plot instructed to justify the sacrifice of the Enterprise C, granted it was a good sacrifice to prevent a war and save untold billions.
The problem I had with "Yesterdays Enterprise" is the fact that the Enterprise after multiple decades was still a basic Galaxy Class Starship. You're not going to waste resources on a ship like that during a war that's been going on that long. You'd used those resources to make smaller but just as well armed ships.
potential history is a good channel. glad you know of him.
The interesting thing about the TOS klingons is how they seemed more a dark counterpart to the federation, where the federation ruled by consent the klingons used fear.
Great episode!!!
On the matter of just how long CLEAR Klingon naval superiority lasts, I think it would persist up until the 4 Years War. What Enterprise gets right and is communicated so masterfully in the Axanar Fan film is that Klingon ships are in a word TOUGH. Shields are tougher, armor is tougher, weapons are just more robust (battle tactics more seasoned). Enterprise is outmatched in literally every engagement with a Klingon ship it encounters and I think this makes sense with the militaristically minded Klingons and the exploration minded Starfleet behind them by something like 200 years. Moreover, Starfleet would also be technologically behind as the Federation in its infancy in my mind was only nominally an alliance. I’d imagine that the respective member big powers were STILL holding back their best tech for their OWN homeworlds’ navy’s exclusive use and so Starfleet ships would be underpowered in most departments - shields, phasers, propulsion, sensors. I mean, would YOU just give up your best tech to your neighbors after signing a piece of paper? Just what kind of push then would have been necessary to FINALLY get the member worlds to go all in?
Here’s where the Axanar story again masterfully fills the gap. For me it makes sense that the Federation is getting steamrolled. Klingons are battle tested in better, more rugged ships against the Orions, Gorn, and maybe even Romulans from time to time. Who’s the Federation fighting? And what’d the old guy say? “Their entire civilization is a monument to the art of war” Gods, what a great line. The disaster of the 4 Years War FINALLY gets the member planets to put their money where their mouth is and give up their best tech to create a new ship (Ares and maybe even Constitution) designed primarily for combat (yes, yes it breaks established canon but it works). Every major race gets an Ares class crewed entirely with their own species (just as it says in the Fam film and in canon) so they ALL gave up a bit of their own best tech to make it work, but they ALL got access to EVERYONE ELSE’S too.
So, for my head canon the Federation doesn’t really ever begin to match the Klingons until the mid-way point of the Four Years War and they stay basically on parity until the introduction of the Excelsior class where the Federation begins to pull away and never really looks back. I think Starfleet ships actually become the product of cross-species production in a way they never were before that because of this conflict - Starfleet ships being majorly a human affair up until this time.
The Excelsior class is really such a watershed design. A constitution can be threatened by a well manned B'rel, or a fight with a D7 is a slug match. An Excelsior probably wipes out both without any sweat, and the Klingons are lulled into peace with the Federation enough that they don't form a real counter for decades (fanon stuff nonwithstanding) because their Brels and Ktingas are good enough against the minor powers on their other border, or holding back the Romulans.
TL,DR: It was the Klingons that taught the Federation how to fight!
(Is that accurate?)
Another fine tale well told! I like your storytelling very much!! Keep 'em coming!
Dang, what does this say about the Cardassians lol, steamrolled by the Klingins in like what? A few days? (It may have been much longer, I don't remember.)
Cardassians were not as technologically advanced as the other powers. It wasn't until the Dominion upgraded them that they started to be able to hold their own.
Not to mention that the Cardies were in the middle of a massive political upheaval at the time and were in utter shambles before the Klingons even got started.
And even then the phasers of war refit Starfleet ships tended to rip right through the Cardassian shields like they weren't there so did Klingon disruptors.
The Klingons and Nazi Germany were similar in this regard: they could only achieve victory via perception. It was impossible for either to defeat their respective foes outright, but breaking their will to fight might have been doable. Churchill did not save the British isles from invasion; the Royal Navy and the RAF did that. But the PM did stop Britain from peace-ing out. If Churchill was gone or displaced for any reason, things would have gotten a lot uglier. I could see the the pre-dominion war Federation breaking in a Maquis-like manner if the Klingons were smart. But then again, that might require something like a chancellor duras taking ques from Romulus. Post-dominion war, though, game's over. The Federation has too big of a tech and resource advantage and finally developed something that resembled a spine.
Yeah I going back to WW2 Churchill was the only one who had a will to fight. That's what the federation needs.
On a more serious note, I do think your examination is right on point. Having rewatched some of DS9 somewhat recently and seeing how the Klingons on were, a question I asked myself was “When was the last time the Klingons had a really significant cultural change? What was the last real time they had a significant advance in their culture?” And you summed it up nicely with your comment of how technologically and culturally stagnant they had become.
The Yesterday's Enterprise war, I assumed started out with the Romulans riling the Klingons up covertly, but planting ideas for plans of assaulting key bases. Maybe with the Romulans providing the Klingons with fleet positions.
I also think that Klingon rushes are kind of scary and done with wild and unwise abandon
Reconciling Discovery is always going to be a problem. Star Trek has always suffered from writers saying "f*** continuity" but in the case of Discover it's like someone waved two giant middle fingers. Looks behaviour and even ship design lineage, comparing Disco Klingons to other iterations is like comparing chalk and cheese
Discovery only makes sense if we consider the implications of the Temporal Cold War, which firmly creates a split between how the original NX went down, and how the Temporal Cold War changed it into the Discovery era ( _which thus far culminates into Picard era_ ). Because the jump between both ENT to TOS or to DSC isn't that big of a leap. The showrunners of ENT were saying how you can see on the consoles how they're all moving more towards that TOS style with buttons appearing everywhere, but if we consider TCW splitting it, it could easily go into the more high tech stance.
Don't get me wrong. I gave Discovery 3 seasons and it disappointed me at every moment it could pretty much. So I don't defend it.
I merely add that it fits an alternate timeline.
( _If there is something I will defend and die on the hill over it's Kelvin Timeline._ )
I GIVE STD THE 2 GIANT FINGERS. ITS JUST RUBBISH
Entertaining analysis. Thank you for posting.
Very nice take on Potential History's take on tactics and logistics. Very nice vid VGM.
Great video! Definitely looking for the Four Years War video!
Yesterday's war makes some sense, in that by that point in time, the Federation had developed a soft under belly, with their pacifistic mentality, and were essentially incapable of waging an all out war, despite their tech advantage. Without the advances caused by the Borg, and the Dominion, the Federation would have been depending on a lot of older ships, that would have had trouble keeping up. Yes, they had ships like the Galaxy, but the back bone was still obsolete Miranda and Excelsior class ships, lacking the upgrades for the Borg, and Dominion.
Wouldnt be surprised the Klingons used the same tactics as the Dominion, crash old ships in the stronger enemy ships and shoot the others. Take a 22nd century BoP as a suicide bomb to one shot Excelsiors and bigger ships. They could even expand this tactic to destroy ship yards and supply outposts with cloaked ships. Image the loss in morale if your best ships taken out like this and you only have the old ships left to fight.
You being an adamant RLM fan makes me glad I subscribed to you. They are probably the most underrated yet one of the oldest channels on TH-cam. I'm torn between Mike and Rich as a favorite character though. They are both trainwreck manic depressive types but in their own unique ways.
Yeah tough choice.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Good vid btw! I never understood why the Klingons were such a big threat either, their alliance with the federation was probably the best thing they ever did tactically speaking.
A big factor in why the Klingons can't defeat the Federation is simply their different approaches to problem-solving a scientist or engineer will attempt to defeat an enemy by designing a weapon to destroy the enemy and a soldier will try and formulate a strategy to defeat the enemy through greater positioning and tactics the Federation Embraces both viewpoints at the same time whereas the Klingons only embrace the Viewpoint of a soldier I think that's reflected in the ship design. The Klingon fleet is designed around dictating the conditions of battle.
i liked that you had a dig at easterdays enterprise as well as disco for a nonseonical klingon victory. like may in easterdays enterprise there was some kind of disastor we never hear about that really weaken the fedration early on or they had become super complacent.
Klingons are the Leroy Jenkins of Star Trek.
This is a good one love all the details.!!!!
That was a really great video I enjoyed it very much
Well actually I think the Klingons in this view are a bit over simplified. In reality, I'd say the Klingon society is most likely something resembling the Minbari in B5, with a warrior cast, which is stereotyped and overly represented; but they also have a worker cast, which we do see a glimmer of on ENT. episode Judgement, where J.G. Hertzler does a masterful character assassination of the stereotypical Klingon warrior we are used to see, who's only goal in life is to earn glory and honor on the battlefield, whereas others, who are labourers, advocates, or scientists, are considered second class citizens, and even a religious cast; we see them only one, as the pilgrims on Borath, awaiting Kayless' return.
I think you forgot one thing about the Yesterday Enterprise War that could explain why the Federation was losing to the Klingons. The Federation was already in a series of wars in the Alpha Quadrant. The most famous are the Cardassians, but I believe the reason the time was called the Border Wars was the Federation fighting several powers over 40 years to protect their territory in the Alpha Quadrant. Combined with the Romulans probably using the war to test the D'Dredix while further weakening the Federation that is spread pretty thin as they probably diverted a lot of the fleets stationed in the Beta to the Alpha when the Klingons struck the Federation. I mean the Federation fleet was already spread pretty thin just holding their territory in cannon while fighting regional powers. Imagine what it was like during a war with not only minor powers but one major one.
In other words, the only reason the Klingons were winning was due to the Federation being barely able to keep its head above the water as every other power was ganging up to drown the UFP.
That is also under the assumption Picard did not lie to convince Captain Garret to go through with the plan to end the war before it began. After all, this was not Picard from the TNG, who fought a few battles while the majority of his career as a scientist and diplomate. This was the battle harden Captain Picard that was fighting wars probably since the start of his career.
Also, to give the Klingons more credit. I wanted to add this fact. After the Kitomer Accords, a large part of the more military faction of Starfleet disappeared overnight when caught in the attempted assassination of the President of the Federation. That included the Chief of Starfleet Command. So many of his allies may have been forced to resign if they were not arrested. Combined with the fact that for a few decades at least, a militarized Federation would be unpopular seeing how such mindset led to military dictatorship, Starfleet is not led by those military-minded, but those who focus on Starfleet's non-military programs like diplomacy, science, engineering, and medical. So, for a time, Starfleet was led by people who while have some military experience if they served on a Starship, just not enough to make the right decisions that led to Starfleet being bogged down by minor powers in the early to mid 24th Century. In fact, I argue that it is not until the Late 24th Century that Starfleet shifted to a more military stance due to the increasing number of hostilities and the failure of the Peace faction failing to keep the peace.
Of the subject, I have that episode of red letter media saved in my TH-cam account, cause it's so funny. Probably gonna watch it after I get done typing this. Great video
mike an rich just vibeing is so great
I am new to your channel and Star Trek in general so hello to all! What I see as the biggest problem of the Klingon is there set traditions mean they don’t adapt. Lack of adaption and flexibility often is a bad combination for any empire.
Just ignore all of Star Trek: Discovery. It never happened.
But I did like the D7 we got in season 2
Basically it was a super-sized and slightly narrower K't'Inga though.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The ONLY klingon ship I liked from that series was the Bird of Prey which honestly deserved to be a ship in Star Wars or SG-1, It had a BEAUTIFUL aesthetic.
A thought that crossed my mind for 'Yesterday's Enterprise' maybe the disappearance of the Enterprise-C caused a butterfly effect where the non-founder members of the Federation left with their stuff (more or less) due to an "Accidental Propaganda Campaign" - or in other words angry Klingons ranting about actual evidence of Starfleet cowardice / incompetence - due to the Dark Future event of the Battle of Narendra III.
This butterfly effect also caused Starfleet to become more militaristic, to the point of 'missing the point' if what the Federation ideals are - which contributes, perhaps more so, to the reduction of the Federation's power. Perhaps it wasn't the Klingon's alone that cause the Fall of the Federation in that timeline, but every outside power and breakoff state attacking, or at least hindering, what is left of the Federation like something trapped in a tank full of Piranha.
The K'vort warships attacking the alternate Enterprise-D was likely, based on this hypothesis, a 'final nail in the Coffin' kind of scenario.
Reflecting more on Yesterday's Enterprise, there's a list of things to consider in both for the behind the scenes, what was stated in the episode and some beta canon/fan fiction.
1.) The episode came out in 1990, a full year before Star Trek 6. The Praxis event hadn't entered canon yet, which would have made them a lot stronger than they would have been taking that film into account.
2.) Yarr states the Federation has lost half its ships. But that raises a few questions, is it a statement of fleet strength now vs when the war started? Is it half of the total amount built plus what they started with? Those are two very different things with different implications. Sure, in both cases losses were very heavy, but one would mean they really are most likely losing, and the other one doesn't. I've played games of Master of Orion where I lost most of the ships I built in a war but still defeated my enemy because their losses were just as high if not higher and/or they couldn't be as replaceable.
3.) There was a statement at the beginning of the last battle of the episode about a successful engagement around Archer 4. But if we look at the admittedly non-canon map, the Archer system is right on the Klingon border. That again raises questions, does this mean the Federation successfully repelled a Klingon offensive, or does it mean the Archer system was liberated? The first would indicate that the border hasn't changed, or had been restored prior to the episode, in which case the Federation isn't losing. If the Archer system had been liberated as a result of that engagement, again the Federation probably isn't losing.
4.) It's stated 40 billion people died. Is this just Federation losses or combination of both sides? The only way to get casualty figures that high in Star Trek is either to have a ground army go through and kill everything like in the Battle of Cardassia (hugely inefficient) or most likely through orbital bombardment of populated worlds. Given the Klingon love of hand to hand ground combat it's highly unlikely they would do this unless out of desperation. So if they did do that, then wouldn't Starfleet do the same when given an opportunity?
5.) A fan theory is that there was a massive surprise offensive that inflicted huge losses and the Federation dragged out the war by doing hit and run attacks, only to be slowly driven back. However, my personal theory is a combination. The Klingons start the war with a blitz that destroys many Starfleet vessels and drives them back, but the Federation successfully rallies and restores the border like what we see in the early part of the Dominion war. Both sides try to launch offensives, but are largely unsuccessful. The war drags on as the Federation begins to gain the upper hand in the war of attrition with powerful next generation, purpose built warships like the Galaxy class and has had time to heavily fortify their worlds and stations. However the Klingons refuse peace offerings because of honor, and the Federation is looking at a long and costly campaign to defeat the Klingon menace.
6.) If the Federation is losing and is within 6 months of surrendering as is stated, how is it the Enterprise D, which is an assault battleship, has time to study a temporal anomaly that's in the same physical location as the prime timeline?
Just some additional stuff I thought I'd throw out there.
Yesterday's Enterprise makes more sense when you disregard how non canon sources and later canon skews it. Since the four years war and fasa aren't canon the gap in technology and the lost ship numbers from war doesn't exist to the same extent, and as you said no praxis yet means that the Klingons have not lost a large amount of industrial capacity. From The writer's perspective at the time of yesterday's Enterprise writing The Orgianian peace deal held. Both the federation and Klingons had only tangled in small skirmishes caused by rogue officers of the empire not the knock down dragout four years war. The Klingons still had their large fleet from 2200s and didn't have to spend the energy needed to clean up praxis. their development has been accelerated by this. the d7 is supplanted by the kvort in the 2340s rather than during the Klingon civil war in Canon where they start appearing in the 2360s. Praxis not yet being Canon makes the Klingons an equal rival not a recovering superpower and yesterday's Enterprise has that in mind.
I do like how you covered Disco lol basically like "yeah..... This is a thing that "happened"..... It's pretty much bullshit..... Let's just move on" LOL
Klingons unhindered by their internal political and "religious" beliefs probably could have come close to taking down the Federation. Their brutal and aggressive tactics, if strong enough in the initial push could break the backs of Starfleet. Remember that at every conflict, the Federation losses serious ground intentionally in order to organize up and retool their ships for combat before they start to push back. That lost time runs the risk of the enemy pushing the line back all the way to the core worlds, and Klingons are aggressive enough to take the initiative. A force that is more pragmatic and calculating may pause just long enough to not realize this flaw...something that Klingons aren't really known for.
Couldn't have said it better
I really enjoy your analysis.
On face value, I agree the Klingons wouldn't win in the war with the Federation. However, 20 years of war with the Klingons in the YE episode alternate timeline is plenty of time for "stuff" to happen. Even a few months is potentially enough time.
A good portion of that time was also spent fighting the Cardassians and I wouldn't be surprised if the Romulans had taken advantage of the entire situation as well as perhaps other powers. I can also see some member worlds withdrawing from the Federation over time, say within five years, in an effort to remain neutral or even join the Klingons if they thought that a viable option. Now add spies, acts of sabotage and the possible use of banned subspace weapons, given that the Klingons had lost all respect for the Federation and would likely grant them no honour.
None of this was mentioned on-screen, but I can see this being how it played out.
15:11 One of my all time favorite FASA Fed ships, the Andor 'missile' boat. Verry nice!
You forgot to mention that in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Enterprise-D was only using a fraction of the firepower that it was capable of. The Klingons only sent three ships because they knew that the Enterprise wouldn't use its weapons to their full potential. They spread their fire across all three ships and destroyed only one of them. A few quick torpedo and phaser volleys focused on one ship would have destroyed it in seconds and the Enterprise would still have almost full shield capacity to fight the other two. Repeat for the second ship and the Enterprise's shields are still holding strong, even though they would be weakened a little. Repeat that a third time and you've won the battle!
They managed to keep at war for 20 years in Yesterday's Enterprise. Theoretically it's possible Picard was lying to captain Garrett about the Federation losing the war. Too bad there's no canon to confirm that.
In regards to the excessive Klingon warrior-culture; to be far the Klingons did have their homeworld pillaged & devastated by giant schizophrenic alien cicadas (aka the Hur'q) in the 1300s. If something similar happened to Earth, Humanity would act similarly (though there'd still be significant differences). Still yeah they don't stand a chance winning a 1v1 against the UFP; especially since much if not most of their tech advancement is from acquiring it from other species in the form of conquest or trade rather than domestic invention.
Wtf was that Federation ship at 15:10? Looks like a kit bash on "LDS"!
I think you are right about the Klingons, but for a different reason. They don't see commerce raiding as "honorable" just as the Japanese saw it in WWII. You saw in DS9 when Dukat is running a cargo ship and attacks the bird of prey, the Klingons leave them laughing. The Japanese sub captains would pass on tankers and try to sink the warships because they were "honorable" targets. As we know from DS9, the Klingons didn't live long enough to regret their decision to leave the cargo ship intact. I think it was Napoleon who said "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
Andor class torpedo cruiser.
In yesterday's enterprise, the Enterprise-D would have won if it wasn't too busy being a disruptor sponge for the Enterprise-C but over all the mission was a success.
Klingon tech barely advances from the Enterprise era, where at least they had more advanced tech than the Federation back then. So yes, they are stupid. But somehow the fish klingons in Discovery can suddenly beat the Federation. Who knew?
You handle Discovery the same way they handled Star Trek V. Forget it ever happened.
"what does god need with a starship?"
@@venomgeekmedia9886 honestly I enjoyed Star Trek V The Final Frontier, still watchable unlike Discovery.
Romulan and Vulcan were talking at a bar.
Vulcan says... "Logically, there is no discernable difference between humans and Klingons. They can crossbreed. They're both aggressive. They're both ruled by their passions. And they both smell really bad! They are the same."
The Romulan replies... "There is one difference between humans and Klingons..."
The Vulcan asks " And what is that?"
The Romulan anders "Humans win their wars."
You should do a battlspace on the Dominion War ear fight between the Federation and Klingons, it would be pretty cool
What a great video
I see you got my two favorite ship showing that being the daedalus-class and the other the WASP class very underrated ships but very prolific
I enjoyed the Starfleet museum ships they where abit untied earth I enjoyed enterprise but I would of loved to see some ships that weren't like Starfleet ships I would of preferred it done in stages like the Daedalus class being the ship of the line in enterprise
At the end of the 24th Century, the Klingon Empire really was the equivalent of the Ottoman Empire in Space. It was the 'Sick Man of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant' like how the Ottoman Empire was, at the end of its life, the 'Sick Man of Europe'.
Definitely the ottomans were Russia's favoured punching bag.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 They used to be Europe's first superpower since the Roman Empire and it showed right up until the other nations got their colonial empires and got more power and resources that the Ottomans couldn't compete. Much like the Klingons.
@@robertbarrows6687 i think it was Economics. because before the european empires if you wanted anything from the east it had to come through the ottomans
@@venomgeekmedia9886 That's true too. Wonder if there were things beyond Klingon territory that the Federation required but couldn't get without tacit cooperation?
Will you do a video for the dominion war when the breen attacked Earth, that would be epic!!!!
Definitely.
I remember reading a Fanfic awhile back and it had a blurb about Yesterday's Enterprise and why the Federation was loosing. It wasn't so much the Klingons that the Federation was loosing against, it was the fact that the Klingons initial successes and Star Fleet's rather anemic response, which had become characteristic during the early and mid-24th century, that emboldened Star Fleet's other enemies to act. So now not only do you have Klingon battlegroups wreaking havoc and conquering systems, but you also have Orion raiders attacking undefended supply ships, Romulon stealth ships blasting your shipyards, and the Cardassians gobbling up territory as well.
To me, that paints a much more realistic picture than just 'The Klingons are winning' even though they have a distinct tech disadvantage and their economy is in tatters thanks to Praxis exploding.
I think Discovery only makes sense, if you consider it to be another no quite parallel Universe, and certainly not the prime universe and timeline.
19:49 Actually the Federation knew exactly where the Klingons would attack and had been building up a few forces there, but in the dialogue they say that the Klingons are pouring everything they have into it but they get stopped, even though most Fed ships are prob near the wormhole like the Defiant or Galaxy’s
Fun fact, in that ToS episode where the Klingons are taking over a planet S01E26 Errand of Mercy, the Klingon Emissary literally takes an arrow to the knee- fired by Spock.
I used to be a warrior like you...
This could also explain Worf's son he went back in time to k!ll the younger self it is possible that Alexander was very pro joining the Federation causing a radical change in culture. The attempt to k!ll Alexander possibly caused himself to question his decision as well that the warrior side was more important because he failed to save his father. His Father probably laid the foundation to join the Federation to save the Empire because of years of corruption.
Yes it has been a while since I have seen the episode, but I never really understood the political situation until just now.
What episode was that? TNG?
@@mrtencza TNG first born it seems. I had to look it up my self and it says the attempt was on Worf not Alexander, but it still help feels in the gap in a since in away.
Haven't watched the video yet, is that Rich Evans I saw before clicking the icon? lmao
It certainly is.
Mine theory in the yesterday scenario is that I believe that the Klingons must have taken Star Fleet by surprise and cost significant lost number of ships to the federation also Star Fleet Fleet is mostly for exploration they must have scrambled to built more tactical purpose ships but the Klingons entire fleet is for war
But why wouldn’t Starfleet re arm? It’s like 20 years. They would know what they are doing section 31 would know.
WotC Star Wars 3.5e RPG " Starships of the Galaxy " source book, I did not like 4e Saga edition.
Point being you could build seven BoP to every two K'tanga , now you could bend the rules and really trick out the K'tanfa but you will only have two torpedo platforms compare to seven BoP.
2nd disagreement. Ezri's prophecy. Eric pushes Worf to correct things by ending Gowron. This places the much less corrupt and more effective Martok on the throne. Martok has Worf going back with him as ambassador and chief not putting up with shit as well as heir apparent. Things are looking better for the Klingons.
Klingon Empire in yesterday's tomorrow.. it think of the Klingons as the Russians in World War II in the Federation are the Germans lots of big Advance expensive machinery very few numbers Klingons cheap efficient mass production. The bird-of-prey is basically the t-34 Russian tank
Yep although the tactics weren't properly developed until after the civil war.
The Klingons had the advantage of using other factions' ships. They boarded, repaired, and used captured ships to add to their fleets. They had a lot of shared Romulan technology since the original series, which is where the Klingons got their cloaking devices (that Discovery gave the finger to).
"I've found it wise to never underestimate the Federation's technical skill" - Gul Dukat
But for real, Rich Evans is right. We are to believe that all these crazy warrior races get beaten when carrying swords by unarmed, unarmoured, elderly diplomats in hand to hand combat, let alone in a war that is 99.9% won by the best technical equipment, mostly ships. Heck, somehow the Cardassian's were having a food supply issue in a world where their advocary has had significant replication tech for centuries and abbundance of all resources and better ship tech, and we are to believe they could win any space battle?
Do you know what happens to ships, tanks or fighter planes with just like a 20 year tech gap on earth in the modern time? Look at the Battle of 73 Easting and you know what would happen if an actual war with the Federation would break out. They would die before they got into range based on superior sensors alone. Especially with the Klingons tendency to use barely updated systems in like 200 year old hulls. For fucks sake the NX01 rofl stomps Klingon Bird of Preys of the exact same design that are still somehow supposedly effective in the Dominion war, and they did it while barely changing course and not caring.
Hey, big Hollywood actor, Rich Evans. Love red letter media lol. Also, Vikings were very smart, you try sailing to around the Mediterranean and through Russia to get home.
Yeah when I get round to covering the early empire they will definitely be a lot of viking parallels
The DISCO war makes me think someone took those sphere-hull ships and just plopped a crapload of lasers on it.
Because fighting honor with disco is a move no one would see coming.
Cheers
The Federations main weakness is that they stagnate their warship development in any real level until a war breaks out and then they being pumping out warships that will leap past any of what their enemies have. The beginning of the war, the enemy really need to have numbers and just fly past most Federation worlds and captur only enough to maintain a supply line and carve the Federation space up in large chunks.
That would explain why in games the Orion are playable as Klingon faction .
Yep I think orion space got split in two after the 4 years war.
I'm a simple man, I see Rich Evans, I click.
Who could resist.
STD shouldn't be added to any cannon.
wait a minute , in the original series they said during the earth romulan war they had no view screens .yet when you watch enterprise they did . why didnt they have view screens during the war ?
I think we need a Romulan version of this video. Earth/Federation vs. Romulans through the eras.
Just some notes, on a topic that i often see on various channels, and considers industrial capacity and ship design. It would seem that many people think that building ships equals having fleets of ships, but ignoring the aspect of manpower. Unless you are Jem'Hadar, you don't grow your soldiers. Yes your shipyards may kick out cruisers like there is no tomorrow.....but who's gonna fly them? Especially if your regulars and veterans are gone? You gonna end up conscripting cadets and NCO's. That leads to two things:
1. Your ships gonna operate sub-standard. These are not simple machines and you need well trained crews to use them to their full potential.
2. Spirit to fight. In every war, mounting up losses can't be done indefinitely. If enough people die and you start pressing otherwise civilian oriented individuals into service, your people's will to fight will diminish and eventually completely fail. They will either fight disheartened, desert, or not fight at all. The problem will manpower is even mentioned in DS9 during the DW.
So don't fall back to this gamer mentality where it seems like i can click on the factory and queue more ships to be built when trying to analize outcomes of battles and wars, especially hypothetical ones. We just don't have the data in say Yesterday's Enterprise to know how long the war was fought or how it was fought. And just because the Feds had A Galaxy, we don't know how many of those they had. And what a loss of one would mean to them. The original TNG-TM cited only 6 operational ships at the start of TNG, and 6 more frames mothballed to be completed and fielded in a pinch. Wolf 359 had 40 ships gathered in a relative haste to fight an existential threat. No Galaxies there either. Power fantasies set aside, the United Federation of Planets may not be this juggernaut fans often assume it is. Nebulas and Galaxies patrolling their borders and all that. It just may be that the average ship in Federation space is a Miranda or a Cheyenne. And that the militarization didn't come till the Dominion War. Now don't get me wrong, i don't say UFP is the Alfa Quadrant wimp. On contrary. They are probably the major power there. Outclassing both the Klingons and the Romulans one on one and probably taking both of them to roughly equally match them. But neither are they a pool of infinite fleets of high tech monstrosities that fart out Sovereigns and Defiants over the weekend on their spare time.
The reason they try to make to say how starfleet could lose was the “invisibility screens”. Event than they should have lost
I've always seen the Klingons as a race that are Warriors, Mariners(boats/planes/spaceships), and Engineers (ships and their fancy architecture on mountains on their homeworld.) So while economically and realistically they might have had little chance to conquer the federation in one war I could still see them devastating the federation in a series of wars, looting and pillaging as they go.
In yesterdays enterprise depending on how long they've maybe been at war with the klingons but in the main timeline the federation has been at peace for a long time and weren't really ready for war with any major enemies so maybe the klingons surprised them at the start of the yesterday enterprise war and destroyed enough starfleet ships and crew, capture enough territory, gained enough resources etc so that the federation is just struggling to hold the line and recover. In the Dominoin war they were ready and had been preparing since their first encounter with the Borg.
I think it comes down to the UFP spent more on plot armor. As far as yesterday's Enterprise I could see it if the Klingon's had just a Genius Fleet Commander (Sun Tzu type) that just used superior Strategy & Tactics to effect a campaign that just never let Star Fleet get it's feet under it.
When it comes to the Klingons beating the Federation in Yesterdays Enterprise, it could be assumed that the Federation had made some miscalculations or the Klingon's had some luck and were able to cause massive damage without taking too much. Like the Federation getting bad intel, moving the fleet only to have the Klingons launching a massive attack somewhere else. Or maybe the Klingons had allied with someone. Another possibility is that the Klingons had conquered Romulus after the surprise attack, and gained quite a lot of technology and raw materials to build a more powerful fleet.
I can't help but wonder what the addition of the Cardassian Border Wars would have had on the Yesterday's Enterprise War. It went on for quite a while and the addition of a hot conflict with the klingons would have split the Federation fleet along two fronts.
My thing was that in Yesterday's Enterprise, was that it showed that the Klingons in that timeline were a LOT more powerful than they were in the prime timeline. Somewhere along the line, they got Federation-level tech and put it in their ships. Add to it that Klingons used pack tactics when they fought, and I could see the Federation having as much trouble as they did in that alternate timeline. I think they even said it in a conversation in the episode how they were basically overwhelming Starfleet by numbers and tactics. I alwyas felt that until they started rolling out Vor'cha and Boreth class ships that they were at a disadvantage in a straight up fight with the Federation, considering the fight at DS9, even when they had those ships in that battle.