[OLD VIDEO] The Long Night in the Andal Invasion | Game of Thrones/ASoIaF Theories
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So Spake Martin Archive post: www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/E...
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When Melisandre was about to give birth to the Shadows, she asked Davos to take her out of the fortress by boat, because the magic woven in the walls of Storm's End didnt let her preform her fire magic. The Andals don't like magic they don't mess with that. Qyburn was kicked out of Oldtown because he got curious. Bran the builder built Storm's End, Winterfell, the Wall, and the Tower in Oldtown. Aside from Wall they all were round structures that the First Men could build. The Maesters are, for the most part, liars, their purpose is to put the Andals in a good light. The faith of the Seven arrived with the Andals to Westetos, but it didn't originate there. In Tyrion's travel he doesn't see one sign of the Faith while he is touring in Essos not even in the Andal region. The Andals invented that religion along the way to help them with the invasion and seize power. There is only one Sept in all Essos in Bravoos and it's located on an island that Only Westeros sailor use.
In the real world, many religions don't exist anymore, but we have evidence of their existence because of temples and manuscript and you are going to tell me that the Faith didn't leave anything behind in the Andal region. That is BS.
We know Valyria rose to dominance after the Long Night. And the Andals fled for Westeros after the Ghiscary Wars, which spanned hundreds of years.
The Andal Invasion probably lasted hundreds of years as well, similar to Europeans coming to the New World. You could say it started with Norse a thousand years ago, or you could argue Columbus started a migration. Or the Nineteenth Century was the largest jump in immigration numbers until that point, dwarfing everything previous. Suppose we are still debating this argument thousands of years in the future, it would be as muddy and unknown for us then as the Maesters debating when the Andal Invasion began.
Also, House Dayne's ancestral sword, Dawn, is very similar to Valyrian steel in strength and sharpness, but pale, while Valyrian steel is dark and smokey. There is more than one way to make this steel, and someone could have done it before Valyria.
Storm's End may have been built before the Long Night and the tech know-how to duplicate it was lost. The Ottoman empire used Greek Fire on occasion. We know it existed, and how it worked, but to this day we don't know how it was made. Last century saw the creation of napalm, which acts as Greek Fire is described. We lost tech, and made something similar later, just like Storm's End, Dawn and ironworks.
George already said Valyria was rising during the Long Night. George already also said that the Long Night happened closer to 5,000 years ago in the books: th-cam.com/video/2yFHjhcIl5k/w-d-xo.html
The problem you fail do adress is that Storms end has a godswood. If Storms end was built by the Andals and with help from septons there is no way in hell they would have built a godswood.
As to the building of Storms end it is said not even with their current technology could westerosi builders make something like that using no mortar! I think it is heaviioly implied that Storms end is built with the help of the children and giants. Not by the Andals.
The rise of Valyria also does not have to coencide with the making of the first valyrian blades. That could be old tech for them.
The books explain why southron castles still had weirwoods:
"The fact that many southron castles still have godswoods with carved weirwoods at their hearts is said to be thanks to the early Andal kings, who shifted from conquest to consolidation, thus avoiding any conflict based on differing faiths."
- The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals
But overall, outside of sequestered castles, the weirwoods were decimated. Even then, the First Men could have still been the ones to build Storm's End with the children; all I argue is that they did not build it so long ago, but during the Andal Invasion.
ps also the Red Woman that many spells with the blocks of Storm End that why she needed Davos to row under Storm End. The Andals made the spells? of the Children?.
Storms end sounds like the ultimate castle magic proof and with a record of never being taken in a siege
1, Meteoric iron was jewelry in the real like Bronze Age. It was Bronze age because people didn't know how to work iron in large quantities, but knew how to work meteoric iron in small quantities for jewelry.
2. And the list of NW commander didn't you think that it was only 600 names because the fact the Andals brought righting and no one really started to write the names of the other 300 commanders in pre Andal time. And if there were written it would be the oldest, and first to be destroyed by history. Also the oldest archives would have been in Night Fort and not where Sam looked Castle Black?
3. They had magic to build the Wall, Winterfell or Storm End. And don't forget the World Book hints of a very advanced civilization named The Great Empire of Dawn that existed before Long Night that could have the architectural ability to build Storm End.
George already confirmed that he has been hinting in the books that the Long Night happened 5,000 years ago. Watch my latest video. The Great Empire of the Dawn is a legend; it could have existed or may have not. But in the World Book there are several references to ancient races, not human, that built constructions... mazemakers, Old Ones, Deep Ones -- not saying they built Storm's End, but they are not legends, such as the mazemakers, who are confirmed by their bones... in contrast to the legend of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which in legend, is said to construct the Five Forts, allegedly.
Also, you propose the Others despised iron for the small quantities the First Men made for jewelry?
@@ASoIaFTheorist I agree with most of the points in these videos, but this is your headcanon and nothing more no matter how much "evidence" there may be. Until any of this is outright confirmed, which it is not, this will remain your headcanon. You come off as if you have all the answers from grrm himself. I know that isn't the intent at least I hope, but it feels like that sometimes when you say these statements are definitive when they can only be definitive from martin himself.
Some clarification: crude iron was no doubt in Westeros before the Andals, but I'm referring to the use of iron weapons and ironworking. That was only brought to Westeros with the Andals.
But I also made a video on steel in the Long Night: th-cam.com/video/NpKsEFi7jTQ/w-d-xo.html
Also, George has confirmed he has been throwing hints in the books that the Long Night is closer to 5,000 years ago: th-cam.com/video/2yFHjhcIl5k/w-d-xo.html
I always wondered about the many contradictions in the asoiaf mythos. After this you should try and tackle the cotf or other structures like Moat Cailin.
If you look at what Storm's End, Winterfell and particularly the Wall are like, they couldn't have been built by the Andals _or_ the First Men. The Wall in particular is something we likely couldn't even build _today._
I took the Sam quote with Jon of them never hearing of Dragon steel. I took it as they both think that Dragon steel is another word for Valyrian steel.
I did have a better reply before the autoplay erased it; but why couldn't the Kings of Winter get Iron from Essos?
They Kings to the rest of the First Men in the north with could've had excess to ships to travel east or could've traded for it with travelers from Essos. With the Andals being "nomadic" realizing, After the Long Night, they could take the land for themselves with these"inferior" people who live with forest people and worship Tree Gods controlling the land. The First Men would've already been there for years, and just look a good Stone Mason, would've made their way without being well read. JS
So could it be that the Starks joined the Andals and betrayed the Others/CotF? Brandon the Breaker could have been this Stark king, who broke the union. Placing iron swords on the laps of the kings of winter would have started then, as it says "to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts", implying the kings of winter's spirits would have gotten "angry" at some point, presumably when this union was broken. So the Others might be looking to rekindle this union with a Stark heir, with Jon or Bran?
While your research is very thorough please explain to me why there are No Andal structures in Essos to verify the architectural structure theory you are espousing?
In Essos, the Andals have been portrayed as more nomadic in nature, having less needs for longer-term constructions. Even still, the Andals weren't as advanced in Essos. By the time they were in Westeros, they were. I'm not implying this, by the way, the books are:
"...but Maester Kennet has definitively proved that it could not have existed before the arrival of the Andals since the First Men and the early Andals raised square towers and keeps. Round towers came sometime later." - The World of Ice and Fire - The North: Winterfell
Early Andals in Westeros did not build round towers. But later Westerosi Andals did. The point is not that the Andals were responsible for building every round tower, but that this advancement in architecture only came to pass after the coming of the Andals.
I've heard the theory that the Andals are simply lying about being so advanced for whatever reason, but there really isn't a substantial motive behind this assertion beyond making themselves look better. The Andals undoubtedly brought writing to Westeros, so they were more advanced as a whole, that is only a logical conclusion.
In the Reach, for example, the First Men made truces with the Andals, and their Andal stonemasons helped them reinforce their castles and holdfasts:
"The Gardeners sought after Andal craftsmen as well and encouraged their lords bannermen to do the same. Blacksmiths and stonemasons in particular were handsomely rewarded. The former taught the First Men to arm and armor themselves in iron in place of bronze; the latter helped them strengthen the defenses of their castles and holdfasts." - The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Andals in the Reach
The Andals could be lying, of course, but as said before, they were undoubtedly a more advanced civilization, as a whole, than the First Men going by the fact that the First Men were still stuck writing on runes on rocks and using bronze weapons.
Great video! Very well formulated arguments. I‘ve never really cared much about the timeline but there are definitely a lot of missing details and misconceptions about when things occurred, the books make constant references to this idea and I think you just found a major piece of the puzzle. Bravo you‘ve just earned a new subscriber :)
This timeline theory makes the song of ice amd fire harmonize better. I'd like to see the next book. My theory is George will drop them both together
This is great stuff. Can't believe I only now are founding your videos
I undersand this is all fun and games, but the fact that they say "they have always put an iron sword at the tomb of a Stark" could have been interpreted in many ways, one of them being that the stories are not true. You'll find plenty of similar sayings in many parts of the world, "we have always done this that way", but knowledge of the deep past is something easily forgotten. Medieval men knew of Alexander the Great but attirbuted to him exploits like conquerting the bottom of the sea in a diving bell or converting to Christianity. If we didn't have Alexander's contemporaries to tell the tale, should we heed these stories? When talking about many 7, 8 and 9th Century characters, late (13-15th Century) memory of those events (some not even 500 years old) was lost and replaced with completely fabricated myth. We today have been able to piece back together these stories thanks to mundane documentation (like donations to monasteries, marriage acts and the like, usually preserved in monasteries), but if we listen to the epic tales of Gerard de Roussilon, the Four Sons of Aymer or the Knights of Montauban (not to mention the big hitters, and whose tales are almost 100% fantasy: Roland and Arthur), we'll get a very different picture of the 8th to 9th Centuries, but furthermore, we'll get an image that's full of 14-15th Century tropes. Just like saying that "there have always been iron swords at the Stark tombs". Maybe not.
I had to re-read the thumbnail title. At first I thought it read something else. 🤣
Why did the Others hate iron?
What is the true origin of the white walkers?
How did the last hero wield dragonsteel, thought to be Valyrian steel?
Why is the list of lord commanders only 674?
When did Sam think the list was written?
How was Storm's End built during the Age of Heroes if not built by Bran the Builder?
Why is Storm's End said to be the seventh castle in tales?
Why did George have to include in his blog post that the Long Night may have been half as long ago?
Storm's End is described looking just like the Fist of the First Men.
"Of towers, there was but one, a colossal drum tower, windowless where it faced the sea, so large that it was granary and barracks and feast hall and lord's dwelling all in one, crowned by massive battlements that made it look from afar like a spiked fist atop an upthrust arm."
If you look at the Fantasy Flight Games art of the Fist of the First Men, it looks like a spiked fist atop an upthrust arm, and strangely they made the surroundings look like water. This art was likely approved by George. Could be that the previous versions of "Storm's End" were not all at the same location.
Bran the builder made storm's end
Sam says the oldest list he has found shows 674 commanders. The OLDEST. He says this in context alongside books that are so old they are crumbling and contain legendary tales of knights "before there were knights". It sounds to me more like he found a list with 674 commanders that dates back thousands of year ago. As in, there are many MORE NW commanders than has been originally thought. Based on your adjusted math for the 674 list, Jon's name would be on that list (or maybe just Mormont) - meaning that the error of the given numbers 998, 999 CLEARLY would make no sense, even to Sam. That list must be incomplete from a long time ago since if it had even a single known name, Sam may be able to fix the numbers/dates based on other, more recent and accurate lists.
I still do not totally disagree with your overall premise that the first long night began around the time of the Andal invasion. I think the first men had Iron BEFORE the Andals - and that perhaps the NW was formed long before the Andal invasion as a way to ensure the COTF (or maybe even other men) follow the terms of the pact that was made between the races before the Andals came (and broke the pact causing the first long night).
I think you make a lot of excellent observations, I just come to the conclusion that the first men had access to better technology and higher culture then the maesters give them credit for in the histories (I really like your observations regarding the swords in the crypts and the crown of the old kings of winter).
I enjoyed the video and am looking forward to the follow-up.
Cheers!
Never saw your stuff but the Bloodmoon leaks are indicating taht it may be worth a look so came by to check.
Well I like that you referenced the world of ice and fire. I think it’s clearly in the text that the handles are great liars. We know the citadel was there well before the handles got there so we know they had education and it was important to them as well as magic. And we also know from the tax that around the buildings also pre-dated the andals as well. I literally listen to ice and fire like four times in a row to make sure I was understanding what they were saying.
Sir you are telling me that Starks and Andals work together so why they block at North's border Moat Cain? They also block at White Harbor to keep the Andals out.
I think the earliest Starks were allied with the Andals, but I don't think the Andals were ever established in the north, past Moat Cailin. I think they just brokered an alliance with the First Men, after the Long Night, but kept to their lands south of Moat Cailin. I also think their alliance deteriorated at some point, which would explain why they eventually fought the Arryns (Andals) at White Harbor. This war between them might be way after the Long Night.
I really appreciate your questions by the way, they're very good points and get me thinking!
Thanks for answering so fast!
I've always found it suspicious how the Starks would always say that the blood of First Men flowed in their veins. As if they were only part First Men, othereise why not just say that you are First Men.
Certainly would be cool for the prequel. Assuming we get it of course.
Great vid. On par with stuff from established asoiaf content creators. Will we get a follow up?
Yes, follow-up video should be up this weekend.
th-cam.com/video/RE9JP06URPE/w-d-xo.html
But old nan is a(nan)si the keeper of stories....si yes.....
998-674=324 heliotropium = heliotrope = bloodstone......
Old Nan is the only reliable narrator in the whole thing. Her word is sacred.
I thought that the first men used iron and the andals used steel. 🤔
The others was mad because of the Andal invasion ....
But the Andals never conquered the North.
Holy shit
So are Ironborns NOT Firstmen???
Hey dude first video am watching very cool🙂
I think bran build Winterfell and storms end but not the wall 🤨
Who gives people a thumbs down? If u don’t like the video skip it and move on with ur life! It’s not that serious. I just saw u got 6 thumbs down. I have never gave anyone a thumbs down! It’s rude! If you agree with them or disagree someone took the time to make it. Respect them for their work. So petty sometimes I really hate the internet! We have become so mean because of it!👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Ps. I love your videos!♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Or the andals lied
Re: Bran the Builder
Saying that structures are incorrectly attributed to him DOES NOT mean all structures attributed to him were created by others.
It's a fallacy. The more correct implications are that SOME MAY BE incorrectly attributed to him.
Therefore it is entirely possible that Bran built Winterfell or any of the other structures.
Given this video postulates that Storm's End and Winterfell were only possible AFTER the Andal invasion it's entirely possible that Bran the Builder was associated both WITH Andals AND First Men.
This could be accomplished in a number of ways. The first is he WAS an Andal and simply married a First Woman. This'd have interesting implications.
Another is he simply wasn't initially Northern and was from a region conquered by Andals. If that were true then Stormlands would be an interesting one and would allow him to be the creator of Storm's End.
He could have been a ward of an Andal or a student of one.
Regardless the point is it IS possible for him being a legendary figure who created some structures.
Also side note there actually isn't evidence of House Stark being a thing until AFTER the long night. There are legends that imply a lineage from Brandon of the bloody blade I believe but no proof of descent.
The implications of this timeline shift is it means a shift in the timeline of the unification of the North. It also implies a SERIES of Andal invasions. This is due to the strange way the North avoided conquer requiring at the very least coordination far greater than other regions.
Sure, all these are other possibilities, which is why I included other text from the books and did not just base it on Bran the Builder being a mere legend; the last hero wielding dragonsteel, the Others hating iron, the list of lord commanders, the time of the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy, and George's unnecessary comment about the Long Night being half that long ago.
There were supposedly around 13 lord commanders during Aemon's time at the wall. So we can use that to get an idea of the average rule of a lord commander. Your calculation sounds overall correct, certainly much more recently than official history claims!