You're WRONG about Scandi Grind Knives - [ SHARPENING TALK ]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.พ. 2022
- You're wrong about scandi grind knives. During this sharpening talk, we'll talk about a common misunderstanding about a popular bushcraft grind. We will finish by sharpening the Tops brothers of bushcraft field knife.
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All I wanted from my Tops BOB was for the bevel to be a zero grind. Out of box the knife has a stupid wide edge, no bite into wood. When I say I want an actual scandi-grind, I do actually mean to remove more metal. There's no issue here.
I have the exact same knife and i converted that saber to a scandi grind.
I agree 100 percent when you said you have to remove ALOT of steel to get the bevel profile correct. I did it with diamond hones and it still seemed like it took forever to do..
LOOKING back? Id have left it a Sabre grind as intended considering the amount of steel i had to take off.
Now being aware of grind profiles as an end user and sharpener, that there is usually a reason for the grind design. A year later, i know better ;) thank so much Kyle :)
Mora: scandi grind at 12° per side (unless they do the US bushcraft market), for that kind of scandi grind starting from a saber grind at nearly 20° per side is not really a problem.
Finally someone who understands and describes it perfectly, thanks!!
But that is getting on close to a Scandinavian grind. Just a very high one. He probably just means getting rid of the secondary edge grind, make it a zero grind?
My thoughts as well.
Ohh good point (no pun intended): The knife has a secondary edge, similar to how Kyle describes what folks do with a "full flat" grind. In some way, sabre and scandi are semantically equivalent, depending on how low one assumes we start the scandi.
Yeah, the TH-camr seems to have misinterpreted what he was being asked to do. Makes me worried about his quality of work.
All depends on what angle you grind the scandi. The TOPS has well enough meat on it to just grind it to zero and then the strop will be enough to establish a kind of convex micro bevel - much like a vintage puukko. Should work like a charm.
You mean removing the small secondary bevel at the cutting edge, right? I also thought about it like that, the sabre grind has those medium high flats and then a cutting edge ground at a different angle. Maybe the owner of the knife asked for those medium grind lines to be ground down further, making the secondary bevel unnecessary. Wouldn't that create a steep scandi grind?
I hope I explained myself in a way someone can understand what I mean, I can't draw pictures here like Kyle did 😅
@@Kleiner_Lutz Exactly. Should work like a charm; 1095 can usually take pretty extreme edge angles. If the edge feels precarious, you can always give it a few licks on a ceramic rod for a hairline microbevel or give the very apex a slight convex with a strop.
Man, your sharpening skills freehand are just not from this world! Really appreciate your videos.
You can find many scandi grind knives with relatively high grind but still being scandi. Take a look at Ahti Vaara. The important difference is that sabre grind knives have secondary bevels, but scandi do not (although they almost always have micro bevels).
I have one of those. Recently picked up their leuku also! Nothing else to say really, just saw your comment and got excited.
@@shrooman777 I have their leuku and it is an amazing knife!
@@pengovanawesome!! I just got it about a month ago, can’t wait to get out there and use it!!
I think they just want you to get rid of that secondary bevel so it’s easier for them to sharpen.
I agree.
I thought Scandis were easier to sharpenwhen I first started. Now I find everything else is easier to sharpen on the fly
I think Tops advertised that knife as Scandi ground with a micro bevel. I’d like to see you make a video on that subject: at what point is a micro bevel a secondary bevel? It would be most valuable with experimental evidence: doing cut tests on identical knives with secondary edges of varying degrees.
New subscriber. I've had an edge pro for about a year now . It's great for flat grind or hollow grind blades but what do you do about serrated blades? I have several nice pocket knives with serrations I can't sharpen.
You might be able to put a small circular ceramic stone in your stone holder. Something like 1/4”, or better use a spyderco stone if you can. Spyderco sells certain stones they call “files” and you might be able to find one short enough to fit. If you have tile floors like me, and cats, you have shorter spyderco rods.
The brand determines what stones will work. Cold steel uses very fine serrations, so you’d have to get a triangular or square stone to fit.
I always slightly round the tips of the serrations so they don’t catch as much, and I sharpen them with spyderco medium rods in the sharpmaker. You find your angle by just letting the serrated bevel tap into place, and scrub over the surface one divot at a time. You can get serrations to cut like a plain edge if it’s sharp enough.
Why wouldn't it qualify as scandi grind, removing only enough material to eliminate secondary bevel, making it one angle to the apex? Because the angle is too acute?
Thanks for the great explanation of the different grinds!
Could you potentially make a scandi knife that is actually not flat on the sides, but slightly tapered? Obviously not fully flat ground, but tapered down a few degrees? The make the bevel smaller, and make sharpening easier.
A lot of the older and more traditional style Finnish blades look a lot like the height of the "sabre" grind line in that TOPS knife, but maybe not the angle of the grind. A number of people do request the removal of the micro-bevel though, which depending on what you're using it for might not be a good idea.
Great video!!!
Excellent video! Thank you.
Great info brother as always
The scandi grind is most at home in soft wood forests. For example, an 11.5 or 13 degree scandi Mora knife can get a lot of edge damage when trimming desert ironwood pieces such as you tend to find in Arizona. Learned that the hard way.
I suspect that TOPS knows that a lot of U.S. campers are going to be in forests with quite a bit of hardwood. So they add a microbevel at a larger angle to keep it from getting beat up.
But if you mostly work with softwoods, it would be nice to eliminate, or mostly eliminate the microbevel.
If the microbevel is quite small, then an evening's grinding will remove it and not too much metal lost.
If it is a littel bigger, you can scandivex it a little, still thinning the 20 degree microbevel a few degrees, or you can change the large bevel angle a little, such as from 13 degrees to 15 degrees in a flat scandi. Or somewhere in between. I did it for my Terava Jaakaripuukko and the Mora Garberg.
So you can at least partially fix the issue and then get closer to your ideal edge over a couple years of use and sharpening.
I favor a slight scandivex anyway, because it improves fine shaving such as feathersticking.
Very informative. Why the different types of grinds?
Thanks Kyle
Great question. Clinton! Each grind has various pros and cons. Some are easier to maintain and sharpen. The biggest factor for choosing a grind is intended use. Grinds with more steel remaining are usually more durable, if that is important. A full flat grind or even a hollow grind would be the best cutting, but also the most delicate. Pick your poison!
Great vid Kyle.
You just taught me something,. Thanks!
Great job on the video
Is a scandi grind similar to a niko grind on swords, ie a thicker, wider grind to give more durability rather than super sharp?
Nope. Scandi grind means only a primary bevel and no secondary or micro bevel.
Thanks for the info.
Based on this, I'm thinking a "hollow grind" is concave, and would be the style that you're basically stuck with (i.e. you could turn any of the other grinds into hollow, but you can't go back). Oooh so Scandi is like type O blood, and hollow grind is like AB+??
Excellent video learned something about knives I didn’t know! 👍👍🇺🇸
He's nor correct though. "Scandi grinds" means one bevel and no secondary bevel no matter the angle.
Great explanation
Hi Kyle. Your video introduces some interesting questions/assumptions. Questions: Does a Scandi grind have to be at a certain angle? It mostly seems to be depicted as at least a 30 degree angle or steeper. Is that "official"? Assumptions: I had always assumed (based on numerous TH-cam videos), that a Scandi grind originates from the fact that there is NO secondary bevel, not the angle of the primary (flat) grind area. (That is flat all the way from the shoulder to the actual cutting edge.) No-one talks about how steep that angle has to be in order to be called a Scandi. Question: taking the knife in the video above, if one increased the angle of sharpening slightly (say 5 degrees), and sharpened it at that angle till the tiny secondary bevel disappears, surely that then becomes a Scandi grind? That is not a lot of material to remove. It may not be at the customary 30 deg angle (?), but surely it is technically now a Scandi grind? If not, I'd like you to tell me why not, because then the description of what a Scandi grind is doesn't make sense, and needs to be defined more accurately with the angle "officially" fixed at say 30 degrees, or whatever. By the way, I make knives with hollow grinds which are quite steep, with a secondary bevel. Would you classify that as a Sabre grind? If not, what would it be classified as? Just hollow grind (and avoid controversy)? I have a large "chopper" style hollow grind knife (stainless) that I've chopped with for decades and it's done some rough jobs, and the blade has stood up very well. Yet, the hollow grind is portrayed as a "weak" grind. (You don't even mention it!) I contend that my knife is much more robust than a flat grind of the same thickness (more steel), and cuts better than a convex blade (but not as strong at the cutting edge, true.). Your thoughts on this? Thanks for a thought-provoking chat.
All the thin Mora knives are at 11.5 degrees per side. The heavy duty ones (Garberg, Bushcraft, Companion Heavy Duty, Robust) are at 13 degrees per side. The Terava Jaakaripuukko is also about 11.5 degrees per side.
There may be a few bushcraft focused knives that are up around 15 degrees per side for people near hardwood forests.
Nothing like 30 degrees unless you're counting the total of both sides.
Most regular sabre ground knives run about 10 degrees per side on the first bevels and 20-30 degrees on the secondary bevels.
@@martinhafner2201 Yeah, my 30 = 2 x 15 degrees.
I was wondering the same thing. Why wouldn't it qualify as scandi grind if it's one angle to the apex? Because the angle is too acute?
Thank you!
Can you do a spray weld or other type of weld and add steel to the blade? Then do that grind? Welds are strong if done correctly.. Son, you sure make those knives look beautiful.. I would send you mine to do except 1. you are busy fella 2. I don't have that kind of money to spend and 3. my knives are just tools. I have carried a knife since I was about 8 years old that is 62 years now and learned how to sharpen on an old stone and my grandfathers old razor strap.. Seems to work ok for me.. But you make them look so fine.. Thanks for showing us all of these things.. Carry on my brother..
Get the Brakimo or Dfly 4.5 . I reprofiled both on my channel. Ive heard the BOB sucks , the other ones are easy to reprofile and work great now.
The BOB makes no sense to me , id buy the little 3.5 one instead. Or get a Tanimboca Puukko which is awesome with the zero degree slight convex edge I added.
I love some Tops knives but most are just to much steel.
Well you taught me something today Kyle. I would have said that TOPS was partially Scandi.
Thank you.
TOPS does advertise it as a 'modified scandi', or something like that. The argument could be made that flat, saber, and scandi are all basically the same thing, but at different angles. Most commonly, a scandi ground bevel is much steeper than the other two. Additionally, scandi ground knives usually don't have a secondary bevel. This TOPS knife is far closer to a "flat grind" than what most would call a scandi.
Nope, that's a low saber flat grind, as he said it is. Scandi is scandi and it's something different. Don't forget, that Marketing made 1095 look like a Super steel and that same marketing has made all people test any kind of knife (chefs knives, diving knives, and any other kind) to be tested as if it was a woodworking design knife and when they obviously fail to perform, they call them "Bad" bushcraft knives... That same people, also believe, that Bil.l Gατeς and the people who run this world, that they care so much and want to save poor people lives!! Generaly, all people's thoughts are controled and guided, via the media, the internet and of course the TV, where we are all programmed from.
@@kyle_noseworthy well considering how thick that blade is, I would call it a scandi with secondary bevel. I mean, it probably has close to the same angle as a mora, but due to the blade thickness it looks like a very high grind line.
Here's what I don't get... there are some knife manufacturers that sell knives that they claim are scandi but they actually have a microbevel. What's up with that?
🍏👍nicely explained Kyle 👌 I guess if a person just started sharpening at a scandie bevel they can keep a sharp knife for 30+ years 😉 and eventually have the grind they wanted. Stay warm bro, we're a little over warm here 30 to 35°c still 25 to 30° at night.
That's why its so bad when a japanese sword gets improperly sharpened with power tools, the amount of metal that you have to remove to restore it is incredible. Also if being done without power tools (I did it once) it can take 100's of hours.
The Bob is a scandi with a secondary , I've seen people take off the secondary just fine. I have their Brakimo it's basically a high scandi with secondary micro microvex. I could easily remove the secondary into a Zero grind.
The BOB is not a saber it's way thinner already....I like your vids but I think you're wrong on these tops knives. ....
If it were a high saber like say a Gerber strongarm than yes that would be impossible. But these scandi vex Tops blades are doable.
I think the Mora Kansbol is a scandi. It is by far my favourite fixed blade to date.
Great knife
Thanks Kyle for the simple explanation. Much appreciated. Norm, Toronto 🍻
That explains alot Kyle!!! Thank you for explaining that to us . I've never thought to change a knife from one to another grind before . I would buy a knife in the original grind and just try to keep it the whey I bought it . Anyways thank you for another awesome video Kyle! Take care and stay safe my friend!
Technically this isn't completely right. A scandinavian or "scandi" grind is just a sabre grind without a secondary bevel which makes it easier to (re-)sharpen (hence why it became popular). So you could just grind it so that you have a straight flat from the existing edge to the start of the primary bevel and you'd get a scandi grind with an angle somewhere between the primary and secondary angles of the original grind with minimal metal removal. The only drawback with that is that you'd get a relatively small edge angle which in turn means that the edge isn't as durable as there's less support behind it. Although with such a meaty blade as on the knife shown in the video it might be an acceptable tradeoff as even the primary existing bevel already has a signfiicant angle. Having to remove a lot of metal only comes in when you want to turn a double-beveled sabre grind into a scandi grind with a more typical edge angle especially if the blade is thin.
You are right about scandi being a zero grind, but Kyle is right about having to grind the blade down by a lot. That primary bevel looks to be at least 3/4 in. At a thickness of 3/16, you'd get an included angle of 14 degrees, far too thin for a bush knife. Cutting that bevel down by half to 3/8 would give 28 degrees, so you would not need to remove quite as much as he suggests.
What you call a saber (the TOPS in the video) for me it is just a hi scandi grind. I think the customer wanted you to eliminate the stupid secondary microbevel and make a true zero grind
A lot of people would say the tops knife is a scandi grind, perhaps with a secondary edge.
But scandinavian grinds don't have a 2nd bevel. That's what makes it a scandi grind.
I converted the Tops B.O.B into a scandi grind with no problem.
3:35 tell them you will have to build up the blade with mild steel weld first lol
Thank you Kyle. I noticed you are left handed. You know, left handers are the only ones in their right mind, eh?
Scandi are the best for wood
Actually, the low saber flat grind that the Brothers of Bushcraft knife has, is the only kind of grind, where you can easily remove the edge bevel and blend it with the main bevel to create the scandi edge. As for all the other grinds and everything else you said? You are 100% right!
Exactly, you can remove steel but you cannot add steel to the knife to make it into a scandi, so you will only end up turning it into something hideous and impractical.
Damn Kyle you’re a familiar face, ever live in the capital of the rock? (Fort Mac bud🤣) lol
I did spend more than a year in St. John's, 2016, 2017. Familiar?
@@kyle_noseworthy turns out, I went to school with a Kyle of the same last name from port aux basque, we went to school in fort Mac together, but my word if the two of you couldn’t be brothers 🤣 he says there’s no relation hahaha, you do beauty work there, glad I stumbled upon ya, got a lot to learn from ya!
The best way to get a true scandi grind without a secondary bevel is to buy a knife that already has one. Why dont people buy what they want instead of buying something else and trying to turn it into what they want.
I thought that this customer's knife WAS a scandi
WOW! I am first.
Thanks for getting here so fast, Kevin!
Bummer I'm #7
Tops call it a modified scandi grind.
*Laughs in Puukko*
you could Scandi vex it
Talk to your Clint I would never do that to my Lt write git a cheap mora or something
I disagree abit here. Beeing scandinavian and all... ;-)
A sabre grind is a "2 bevel grind" and a scandinavian is a "1 bevel grind" so no, you don't have to add material to remove the 2nd bevel. It's not about the angle och lenght of the bevel, it's the number of bevels...
You can have a 30° cutting edge on both a scandi and a sabre and then yes, it would be impossible to go from a 30° sabre cutting edge to a 30° scandi. But you can change the 2nd bevel geometry from lets say 30° to 27° or what ever it takes to remove the 2nd bevel.
Yup, that's how I see it
Can't put the hamburger back on the cow 😉
I disagree with Kyle here. Converting a Sabre to Scandi means just sharpening out the secondary bevel. If this is useful depends on the angle of the primary bevel.
You are right about terminology, but Kyle is right that the knife would have to be ground down by a lot. If you merely remove the secondary bevel, my estimate is that you would get an included angle of 7 degrees (he said 3/16 in. stock and the primary bevel looks to be at least 3/4 in.) You would need to cut down the primary bevel by at least half to get a serviceable scandi bush knife.
Lots of people convert low sabe grinds to scandi. This would probably be the easiest knife ever made to do that conversion. This knife looks to basically be a scandi with a micro bevel. Creating a zero degree edge here is 1000% possible. Probably don't send your knives to this dude.
You mean you don’t have a steel stretcher that can widen metal how dare you lol.
Tops calls it a scandi vex
I really don't think u know what your talking about but think what u want lol
I think a lot of people think you can just take the bevel of the saber grind and grind it down to meet the apex of the micro bevel and boom ya got a scandi grind without realizing the difference. Like on that tops knife. Just grind that large bevel all the way down to an apex. But they dont realize how much material that would actually remove and how large it would make that faux scandi. Theyd wind up with a weaker edge than the micro bevel they perceive as weak/inferior. I tell people if they want a scandi grind on a knife just go pick up a mora. Good. Cheap. Got that scandi with a great factory edge. Job done lol
Na, you're wrong.