If you ever come into a real survival situation, just sit down and start sharpening your knife. In less than 15 minutes someone will appear and tell you how to do it right in his opinion.
One other option for stropping a scandi grind without creating a convex edge is to use a hardwood strop. As a furniture-maker, this is what I do for my chisels between sharpening them with stones. All you have to do is cut a piece of hardwood so you have a very flat portion of end grain exposed and rub stropping compound into the open pores. You then have a flat, hard, durable surface charged with the fine stropping abrasive that will not convex your edge the way a leather strop will. It works incredibly well and saves me leaving the bench to sharpen on my stones. It also save wear on my nice stones and costs virtually nothing.
@Donny p. I was also a professional hand tool woodworker, reliant on ultra sharp planes and chiselsand I echo your advice. However, I would bet a fair amount of money that @Least 90% ofthe knife fetishists reading this thread Would not be able to plane a flat surface on the end grain of a piece of hardwood. That is why I recommend MDF -. It’s flat and it’s cheap.
@@MrNetnic I’m one of the dirty fetishists you speak of. Firstly, I hope you’re having a wonderful day being a worthy blade owner unlike us fetishists who get hard for sharpening blades we never use. Secondly, can you think of any way to obtain a small piece of mdf without having to purchase an entire board? I’m not a tool guy and always feel lost in the Home Depot unless I’m staring at a shiny knife edge attached to a tool I have no understanding of. Anyway, is there anything small that’s made of mdf i could purchase that I could strop my skandi grinds on. Because if I can’t achieve a hair shaving edge then I can’t get hard. And if I can’t get hard my wife gets angry. My marriage is on the line here. So, I’m begging you to once again impart your knowledge upon me and tell me how to acquire a small piece of mdf.
@@bradlarrison191 construction site scrap bins, also the hardware store will generally cut that plank down for you, if you ask nicely ofc. but is having some excess wood ever really a bad thing? your wife apparently thinks not haha
Scandi is delicate. I have no problem with the slightly convexed edge. Stays sharp longer. And I take the stone to the blade. It's so much more controllable to me.
"Pure" Scandi grinds IMHO have one purpose WHITTLING. But even then as someone who whittles about an hour a day I find a scandiVex or full flatVex blend to be superior . Knife use through hundreds of hours will teach you much about grinds and which ones work best. Ruining a scandi is when a person puts it through a worksharp but basic microvexing an edge is natural. If done right it will save you steel and money.
Some might argue that a scadi-vex is better than a true scandi, and it was used originally, the flat scandi grind is a relatively new thing, that only came about with modern machinery in the factories of the last century or so.
Aaaaand that is another reason the low end Mora's are great, you can sacrifice one or two to learning how to sharpen Scandi grinds correctly on a real Scandi grind with decent steel without ruining more expensive knives.
@Gray Au i dont think scandi sucks in general, in my opinion it is sometimes too demanding for the steel quality. For exmple, my Mora Companion came with scandi grind with a micro bevel (i dont like to call this sabre grind since the secondary bevel was only about quarter of milimeter wide). When i tried to sharpen it like a full scandi, i ended with an edge that was to thin and got bent during casual cutting task. Instead of reprofiling the whole blade or returning to the secondary bevel i went for the scandivex grind and cant comply about the edge retention now.
@@s7r49 Yeah..I've wasted countless hours trying to sharpen a "scandi" Mora, until I took a new one, put it under a microscope, and observed a distinct secondary / micro bevel. What is the point of them being sold as Scandi grinds, when they aren't scandi grinds? Literally the whole point is to have a very easy to sharpen profile that anyone can do, even out in the field.
@Ryan Boswood In my experience its all about practice. Practice and reasonable quality stones, which should be in ideal case pretty flat (no need to go crazy, but it helps for me). As far as I know, the scandi grinds are tricky in the way that while they allow you to set the sharpening angle on pretty easily, you need to take off quite a lot of material in comparison to a secondary bevel grind. This means that any minor mistake that you make gets amplified quite a lot. For example, if you tend to rock or tilt the blade on the end or beginning of each stroke, after a greater number of repetitions it might eventually round your bevel, making it slightly convex. After that, finding the correct angle to sharpen on again can be a bit difficult. If I were you, I wouldnt be really afraid of ruining cheap knives - I am not sure what you ment by "totally destroying", but unless you remove so much material that the knife isnt able to hold up, you most likely haven't done anything what somebody with some sharpening experience couldnt fix. The only reason why I would not recommed starting with expensive knives is the fact that you could damage them cosmetically, and while this is fine with cheap things, you most likely want your more valuable ones to be nice and shiny/satine/stonewash/whatever finish you like :P
They hold an edge somewhat longer. You don't need necessarily need a strop for any reason with any bevel. A strop is for honing, and polishing out the microserration as well as the steel itself, your edge will potentially last longer (if you didn't try to sharpen with a strop and make your edge atomically thin) and be prettier, not necessarily perform better. Convex is the best bevel for holding an edge, which means it is the best bevel period (but especially for bushcraft/survival)
@@SoftBreadSoft The reason our knifes have flat bevels is to give good support while carving wood, Like the sole of a plane. Its also resonable good at general work but does not really good at standing up to abuse, traditionally axes/hatchets or perhaps sami chopping knives or sometimes a second "beater knife" were used for that, either with sligthly steeper angle "scandi" edges for carving use or convex grind for chopping use. Convex grind is better at cutting throug stuff, and as most mora knives are used on the workplace or home to cut, pry and poke around the manufacturers ship them with slightly to shallow angle grinds with the micro bevel to make them better cutters and to hold up to abuse better.
@@borjesvensson8661 Sharpened my mora to a true scandi, only to find out that it made the knife worthless by doing so. That steel with that true zero edge simply didn't hold up to *any* actual use. Light wood carving mangled the delicate edge. Wound up having to put the secondary bevel back on. Works fine now.
Mors Kochanski used a strop, Ray Mears applies a micro bevel, and furthermore, traditional Scandinavian knives were very high convex grinds. A zero grind is actually very delicate on the cutting edge, and can chip out easily.
Yup, also; Cody Lundin uses sandpaper, no stones (for more than 30 years now). On cardboard or something like that. A little convex is not bad but good. And what Kyle gets from customers, seems to be cases of completely focusing on the apex when stropping. Then you get the overly rounding effect. When keeping the whole bevel on the leather or sandpaper, it will work fine. No stones needed.
This makes a lot of sense. I just got my first scandi grind knife and the #1 reason was ease of sharpening. So I better make sure it STAYS easy to sharpen!
Thanks Kyle, this is exactly what I've been saying about all knives that do not have a secondary bevel at the cutting edge. To say that a Scandi grind is so easy to sharpen in the field is just NOT true. Yes you can put a sort of edge on it for a while, but, as you've said you're actually ruining your grind. What happens in most cases is that the less arduous solution is to sharpen at a steeper angle, thus changing the profile, till eventually it's mostly only useful as a doorstop it's so steep. The cynic in me says that the reason it is so widely recommended by experts is because it has to go back so often to an expert for proper sharpening. But I guess we all have to make a living. Most people who say it's easy to sharpen are people who have some considerable expertise with knives. For beginners it's a nightmare. One thing I do concede is that the Scandi grind is good for woodworking tools, as the angle is similar to that of a chisel, only double sided. For most other tasks like peeling, food prep, skinning, dressing meat etc flat and hollow grinds outperform the Scandi grind by a long way. It is most definitely NOT a solution for ALL camp tasks. For a SHTF survival situation it has serious shortcomings. Sharpening a hollow or sabre grind knife is actually quite easy, even to get a perfect edge, as there is much less probability for making a serious error, as your diagrams so clearly illustrate! Well done on that. Take away: from this it becomes clear that specific tasks around camp require specific knives, with the necessary characteristics to work effectively, and provide a pleasant experience while doing so. Yes, this means you might need more than one knife. However, if you like hacking it and expending lots of energy you can use just about anything out there and eventually the task may get done and leave you with all ten fingers and a full quota of blood inside. Thanks again.
You can strop with compound directly on a flat board. The leather of the strop compresses resulting in the rounding of the apex. For a bushcraft knife you might actually want this to strengthen the edge but when I am carving (mora 106) I use compound straight onto the board and it keeps a flatter bevel.
EXACTLY !!! If I really wanted to strop, I would use compound, or the slurry off an 8000 grit stone, on a piece of MDF. As far as I am concerned, the ultimate Scandi grind is the ultimate fragile edge. You are not taking your knife into the wilderness to make a fine furniture, Or to cut pieces of paper FFS. A knife that you take camping with you is a relatively crude tool That needs a combination of reasonable sharpness and reliable edge strength.
Sanding belts and leather strops will form slight convex bevels, even working on a wet stone by hand will tend to convex as the wrist flexes. A fixed angle jig would form a flat edge. Thick blades over 1/8th" tend not to perform well with a Scandinavian grind as the edge angle is too severe. My family bloodlines came from Sami of Inari and some old blades I have seen are all convex edged (both on 'leuku' and 'puukko' sized blades). I have heard from people who have researched this topic that mechanized mass production resulted in what we believe is the flat grind profile 'Scandi' we see today. Thanks for opening up this discussion :)
I sharpen all my Mora's on sandpaper and keep them sharp by stropping. The sanding blocks with spring clips have the somewhat soft backing. Perfect for sharpening a scandi grind knife to convex it slightly.. No stones needed. And the scandivex is best. A slight convex grind. Makes the edge tougher, but still very sharp.
I just purchased a scandi grind folder, this was superbly illustrated. And therefore super appreciated to extend the life of my knife through your knowledge. Greetings from New Zealand 🙏
For my user scandi's I actually want that small secondary convex edge. They even call it a scandivex. So I strop them before even taking them out in the field. A true scandi is way to weak for serious carving most of all some harder woods. The edge will roll on you. I tested a true factory scandi knife in Colombia and the first piece of hardwood I tried to cut the edge had a visible roll. So what you say is correct but who wants a true scandi knife for actual work in the field?
@@declanthiele No. Just a full scandi makes the edge to weak. To thin no matter the temper or steel. It all depends on the angle of the scandi of course. After some stropping these blades can withstand batoning even. So if it's just cutting fruits and vegetables (soft materials) keep that super thin edge. If you also want to do some woodwork give it a strop depending on the angle of the scandi.
It becomes a scandivex. [2] And it may performs even better, hold an edge better, less chips. I like it. Although, I try not to raise the angle not to convex to much. Last time on stones, I've modifeid my Mora, reduced the angle, raised the bevel line and stroped. So it seems like a tommy pukko. Bites much deeper in wood and the convex edge reduces the chiping issue. I like it. Still make great feathers.
The Mora Companion used to come with the sabre grind, not sure if it still does, but the last one I bought had the secondary micro bevel. I got rid of the micro bevel as soon as I got it home. I have found that the skandi is my favorite blade grind for its versatility and its simplicity.
i hear people using secondary grind/edge/bevel interchangeably with micro grind/edge/bevel, but here's how I like to make the distinction. On saber grinds, you can clearly see the "secondary" bevel, it's certainly nowhere near as long as the primary, but you can clearly see that edge. Whereas for scandi, I do sharpen (since it typically doesn't need reprofiling, on higher grit stones) them to scandi zero, but raise them ever so slightly for a micro edge on finer/finishing stone. These micro edges are visually not as prominent as the secondary edge on a saber grind. Of course another thing to point out is that the primary bevel on saber is a lot shallower than the angle of a scandi knife. Anyway, long story short, I like having micro bevels on scandi knives; I feel you get over 90% of the cutting performance (if not more) and a lot tougher edge. I also love sabers too though; one can never have too many knives (unless you ask my wife....)
I agree with you. I also microbevel my scans is because a true Scandinavian edge on my Finnish puukkos and I see the edge literally flexing while working on harder woods. I know that puukkos are meant to whittle softer woods though. But where I live we have harder woods as well. A week Scandi edge is not practical for me.
Okay. Scandi - use a flat stone. Now I know what I keep doing wrong. Please tell me how do sharpen AND MAINTAIN a sabre grind. Excellent and to the point video.
Your tutelage is incredible. You explained it, clearly, and in a way that helped others, saved them money, and did you no financial food aside from bolstering your credibility. You did quite well. I've now subscribed.
The first time I did a zero grind on my scandi knife, it was scary sharp. But the edge didn't last. I enjoyed using it but I took some chips and rolls. Now I can't be bothered taking even more steel and time to fix that. So I keep factory microbevel edge on the scandi.
Good video. I skipped watching this video every time it popped up because I just assumed it was about people sharpening their scandi's as if they were regular knives and adding a secondary bevel. Now I'm glad I did watch it, I've been touching up my Mora on a straight razor strop and it has given it a slight convex. From now on I'll only use the plain leather side instead of the compound side.
I’ve noticed a lot of people using strops tend to flick their wrist at the end causing the edge to round off. What irks me is a new scandi showing up with a micro bevel right out of the factory (Garberg, etc). I dont get the point of that.. For field sharpening my A2/3v/Elmax scandis I use a 1.5 x 6 inch piece of ~3-4mm thick carbon fiber plate with naked thin smooth leather on one side, and the thin 3M microfinishing lapping adhesive sheet on the other. That stuff is amazing and weighs nothing. I’ve made a few of them, one has Tormek paste on the leather for Elmax blades. The trick to the strop side is using thin hard leather that doesn’t deform/compress much when the blade is pushed down on it so that it doesn’t “wrap” upwards around the edge causing it to round off leaving micro convex. Although, I’ve noticed more tiny edge dings what were not developing when I had some micro convexing in the past using a thicker leather with compound or paste. So I guess its a trade-off.
Funny, i stumbled across this video at 2 am and it just solved my recent knife predicament. I made a new strop out of some scrap veg. tan and i stropped my mora 511. I thought it would be shaving sharp but it couldn't even cut paper! I thought my angle was too steep and i goof'd up but this video just answered that question.
You get knives with a convex edge because people are sharpening them on stones and don't know how to hold the proper angle. They rock the blade as they pull it down the stone and cause the angle to change as they pull/push the blade. On top of that people who don't know how to sharpen their knives and try, are seldom using the same angle 2 strokes in a row. Stropping has little to do with the damaged edges you see. Most people don't even know what a strop is, much less actually own one.
Good tip. I recently bought a scandi grind knife for bushcraft and am looking forward to a easier method of sharpening. I would have stropped it the way you warned not to. You saved me some frustration.
I would disagree a little bit. With practice and understanding how different stropping methods affect an edge a scandi can be touched up nicely many times before a stone is needed. Different strokes for different folks of course. There will always be error with a human hand, even on the stone. Proper stropping can be quicker, easier and less wear on the edge. I like a tiny relief bevel anyways.
Well said bro. Even my blacksmith drives me crazy by putting on a convex edge with his belts, and when I want to put on a decent V edge (scandi) I need to sharpen around 3-4 days - each day, at least 2 x 3 hours on my stones which is absolutely a stone and time killing, useless piece of unnecessary work. I hate it.
Scandi its really hard to maintain perfectly flat because the stone wears out and then getting it back perfectly sharp becomes almost impossible. I have a mora that gave me a lot of grief until i put it on the work sharp and convert it into convex. It worked best on 15 degrees angle and now the knife is really sharp and you can easily refine the edge on a strop.
This is a great tutorial for a true scandi zero grind. However, keep in mind that alot of scandi grinds actually have a micro bevel. This goes for most moraknives and puukos. Sincerely, a guy who ruined his terävä jääkäripuukko 120 by watching this tutorial.
I feel you. I remember several years ago I had this awesome hand forged puukko and I wanted to convert it from sabre grind to true Scandi. After hours of grinding I finally succeeded only to find the quality of the blade reduced. Later I realized it originally had a scandivex grind with a Microbevel.
With my scandi ground carving knives I'll strop them in between sharpening with compound but I use a very flat, glass backed kangaroo leather strop which reduces the convexing problem a lot. I also don't use much downward pressure, just enough to hold the knife in place. And when I notice that not working well anymore I sharpen them on metal diamond plate sharpener. Honestly scandi ground knives are a quite a bit more work when it comes to maintenance but if you need the capabilities you can't beat them.
sometimes i find scandì to be too acute, and that makes the edge fairly week. which works fine for normal bush crafting(wood, rope or animals) which is kind of what its supposed to be made for. but for normal day uses donst work that well. so I sometimes sharpen them as saber. that makes maintenance much quicker, also because the edge doesn't get damaged as much.
I really needed this video. I'm having this problem and couldn't work out what was happening. After watching your video I think that this is the case. Thanks
What if I want a convex grind, will stropping on a leather keep my convex edge? Or what if I have a micro-bevel on a flat or scandi grind, how do I resharpen that micro-bevel?
Stropping on leather will help to keep your convex, for sure. You would sharpen a micro bevel just as you would sharpen any knife, say a buck 110, with a small secondary bevel.
It’s not I practice to remove the steel and fix the grind properly, if the knife was maintained properly in the first place the steel would have been already removed with each edge touch up it’s just a lot of work!
A very good reason why I do my stropping on a pine board (no leather) with compound directly on the wood. And when it begins to deform, it’s kindling! Obviously, it needs to be a perfectly clear board with straight grain.
If you have a problem with stropping a scandi grind its because you dont know how to use a strop, i just use an old leather belt holding it with my feet at hold the other end in my hand and i never had a problem with my edge by doing that.
FYI, Mora knives come from the factory with a micro bevel. The company intended their knives to be inexpensive, so they don’t use premium steel (except for the Garberg), so the micro bevel is necessary for a more durable edge. The good news is that the bevel really is micro, so it doesn’t take too long to bring it to a true scandi. The bad news is their scandi edge isn’t very durable.
This is precisely why I don't use stropping compound. It was never used in the old days. Stops were just a piece of leather, and it's just meant to put a nice smooth polish on the blade. And stropping also makes sure you've removed your false edge (burr).
Stropping compound was used, but not strops. My grandfather slapped a sock bag with a mix of talc and rottenstone and who knows what other magic ingredients onto a piece of flat wood, and dragged the knife over that until the edge shone. He used the same bag as a styptic if any of us kids cut ourselves.
Fully agree that stropping (especially if done improperly) will ruin a Scandi grind. A ceramic rod or a rod system (like Lansky Turn Box or Spyderco Sharpmaker) is a relatively easy way to maintain true Scandi grinds .
It most certainly affects performance. You can no longer chisel with the blade, as when it rests on the bevel, the real edge is not near the wood. It also becomes much more difficult to whittle woods that split easily, as you create a wedging effect where the edge doesn't touch the wood and controls the cut. The amount of tearing increases significantly if you have a secondary bevel.
Thank you, that explains why my blade edges seem to be dulling on 1/8 inch tanned leather cowhide with polishing compound, but I get a great polish using compound on thin suede like leather (from an old welding glove) stapled to a piece of wood. I'm applying to much pressure when stropping and the 1/8" leather has give to it where i'm rolling into the edge and eating it away as to where the thin leather has the hard wood backing to support my blade edge as i polish it. Eye opening O_O
Since the topic is sharpening I want to share a recent discovery for me. I have tried everything I could find for sharpening. I have used oil stones, water stones, diamond stones, carbide, ceramic and finally I found the one the easiest and fastest sharpening method for me I should say. I bought a block sharpener two crossed butchers steels in a plastic handle. Easy as pie all my knives are sharp.
These sharpeners can be somewhat effective for a short time, but they have many drawbacks. :-) I would highly recommend investing some time into learning true traditional knife sharpening of this caliber.
Yeah, they can be simple and fast! The problem is that they don't offer you an option to reprofile your entire bevel, so you just end up with an increasingly thick edge. Know what I mean? :-) Whatever works though! Thanks for watching and commenting my friend
Made my mora a true scandi, got chips and roles without abusing it. Gave it a convex micro bevel and it's much sturdier now. True scandi makes sense for carpenters and prepping food and game, that's it
Got Eräpuu Nahkatako with micro bevel. Mora also puts micro bevels at their knives. Here is the quote from their site: "Most of our knives have the True Scandi Grind that includes the typical micro bevel of a total edge angle of about 35-45° which is about 0.05 - 0.5 mm high to make the edge less fragile and with better edge retention." I guess they just don't know how to make "proper" scandi grind 😀
I keep hearing people say how easy a scandi is to sharpen .. I disagree... The large amount of metal you need to remove to sharpen it correctly means that it is hard work to maintain.. A saber, flat or better still a hollow grind is a much better all around choice for most people xx
Most people would call that "scandivex" where there is only the primary and it's a bit convexed I doubt ancient humans used a completely flat primary bevel anyway Would be difficult
Weiderfan a sabre is far higher on the initial grind usually double the hight of a scandi. Dude you are not giving very accurate info here. I can email you a diagram of grinds if you need clarification.
In Scandinavia, honing was traditionally done on schist, which naturally breaks up into very flat stones. So yes, flat grinds were easier in Scandinavia than many other places.
Traditionally scandinavian grinds would (and still do, at least for those that know what they're doing sharpening knives för sloyd/slöjd) actually have a hollow ground bevel, done with a big rotating stone, that is reground once in a while, you then hone this hollow ground bevel with a sharpening stone until you've worked the edge back so far that the actual bevel angle has become to big, then it's back to the rotating grinding stone for regrinding the correct bevel angle again. You can of course get flat bevels on a rotating grinding stone as well, you first grind in the hollow grind with the knife positioned crosswise to the rotation of the stone, after that's done you flatten it out with the bevel paralell to the rotation of the stone.
also they might have used stone blades which are still known to be sharper than anything that can be ground out of steel ;) "Under the microscope, you could see the obsidian scalpel had divided individual cells in half, and next to it, the steel scalpel incision looked like it had been made by a chainsaw." from: edition.cnn.com/2015/04/02/health/surgery-scalpels-obsidian/index.html
I have always used the upper part of my chipawa boots to strop when /if needed but I don't cut paper with my knives I think all that is hokey, for show but to each his own and it is their $ . I have way to much to do other than sharpen knives. I use a ceramic rod from my grand father for kitchen knives to keep them sharp. These are what I worry about, and that usually takes a few seconds.I usually sharpen my other knives when it's to crappy outside to do other stuff.good video thanks for posting
if it isn't sharp enough to cut paper, then there is no point in stropping on your boots. My knives are wayyy past 'paper cutting sharp' before they even touch a stop, since a strop is only for final honing. It isn't aggressive enough before that stage, to really make a notable difference.
Good information. I have sharpened many knives, but all of them have microbevels. Just got my first Scandi Grind, soon it feels odd not keeping the large bevel touching the stone while sharpening. I rarely strop, but I do routinely hone on ceramic rod. Would honing be a problem with Scandi grinds, since the contact is made only on the edge and not the entire bevel?
Well apparently I put a saber grind on my mora still cuts well tho , maybe I will invest the time to make it a scandi again anyway thanks for the video
“Scandi” grinds with a very tiny micro bevel has far better edge retention and no negative impact in cutting various materials than a fragile zero ground scandi. Zero ground scandis are good for wood work and that is all. As a multi purpose knife they are terrible. That said, the bevels do need grinding to zero every now and then or the apex will become very dull. As for stropping, the leather should be around 1mm thick, loaded, and done with the full bevel on the leather. Or don’t strop at all. Either way, a very tiny micro bevel (barely visible) is needed if you want edge retention that can last months.
TH-cam commenters are so funny. Some guy just said the exact opposite of what you said. "Scandi grind is good for multi purpose take, but are terrible for wood working." LOL. Opinions are like... And they all stink.
Found this video just in time,I thought if I kept on top of things with the strop it would be better for the blade but I see now how that is not right,mine was starting to convex after only a few strops.
Scandi vex is the way for me, double chisel (what this guy is calling "true scandi" Dulls way too fast (granted my only experience is with mora)...put a convex edge on all of them and they preform much better in all aspects (slicing, edge retention ect)
Then, I dont know maybe I'm not using it for the "right"things....not sharpening it correctly. My only experience is with Mora high carbon companion and TOPs mini scandi. The Mora I was sharpening all the time, the tops came with a convexed edge and held up much better.....did the same with the mora and it performs much better....Sorry If i gave you nightmares!
I feel like anybody who is sharpening freehand is creating a convex edge weather they want to admit it or not. Any slight variation in the angle you hold the knife will convex the edge and we are humans after all not machines
Really enjoyed this and love the new episode format! I think this will be a great series. I'm not so focused on sharpening techniques and I know others aren't as well so this will offer a really nice service for those of us that need to learn more about how to sharpen and maintain our edges! Good job! P.S. how's the leg?👍👍👍
Great vid! Helps me alot. May I ask what degree should a true scandi be? My tops bob scandi is at 11.8 degrees with a 20 degree micro bevel. My work tuff gear mt bushman’s scandi is at 8.9 degrees with a 20 degree micro bevel. Both are like this from the factory. Was thinking to make them both true scandi’s. Do you have any advise for me?
I've seen a lot of scandi's like this over the years. I always knew it as a scandi vex. It is a fairly common thing being that a lot of people just touch up edges in the field with something small like a dc4 and a small strop rather than taking the time to run it over the stone when they get home. On another note I always use a loaded strop on a scandi but only when it comes off the stone or ceramic. Anyways , that's my 2 cents worth. Thanks for another very informative video none the less and cheers till the next one!
thanks Chad! Yes, I should have thrown in the word scandivex, but most of these knives don't come from the factory with a vexed edge. most have a single bevel. If people don't mind the changes in edge geometry and sharpening style, it isn't a problem! I'm simply stating a recurring trend that I see! :-)
Weiderfan , mora use a micro bevel on all their knives because a true scandi is just to weak. A scandivex is not ruining your knife its improving it tenfold.
Derek Davies Exactly, I love my Garbergs micro bevel, I wasn't sure if I was gonna remove it or not but once I used it I clearly felt the difference much better.
Yes they do. They put a micro bevel on the scandi. Do your homework, i have with my own eyes received a mora from the factory and looked at the edge under magnification. What i saw was a secondary bevel. A clear secondary grind. You are full of it sorry.
lol thought id learn a tip but allready knew this on scandi grinds.i prefer em so i generally have a bunch laying around.i never have really used strops.not really my style.sharpining stones was what i was tuaght at a young age and i just never shifted.and discovering the scandi made the use of the stones so much easier.i still dont totally know why they say scandi grinds suck at food prep though.my main bush blade handles food like a champ.but to be fair it is also considerably thinner than alot of these giant rambo blades i see people stomping through the woods with.i understand the inclination to have a thick spine on a blade but i have never broke a blade in the woods either.thinner blades tend to slice better,its just geometry.and i baton with these thin blades just fine.just need to know when and what to baton and when to just pull out the saw and axe.i shake my head everytime i see a fool trying to split a log whith a knife and wonder why they allways break lol.must be that the knife is shitty.cant be opperator error at all.i feel alot of this hype on having a huge and super thick spined blade for bushcraft due to lack of proper skills has givin the scandi somewhat of an unfair negitive veiw.if your knifes edge has the same profile of a damn axe then yeah,you will chop wood well and suffer at food prep.we should continue to strive for dispelling misinformation and minimising unnessisary hypes and fads.we may find that we can get away with far less than we assume.remember the first settlers to call america home used knives exactly like old hickories.thin butchering blades.it was just what they had readily availible.and they often had to do tons of camp chores on the day to day.what we call primitive living was the only way of life back then.they managed fine.
Thank you very much for this video, it's very very helpful. I had a hunch of this proven theory about using strops with compound that can round off the edge because the grind is not lying completely flat on the surface of the sharpening tool. does this also apply to slightly convexed scandi grinds? Is there a video for secondary V Edge sharpening?
So the sabre bevel is the micro edge you were removing from your Mora video right? You were sharpening and honing a scandi bevel back onto it and then you polished the entire grind to a mirror polish....it was exciting.
Just got a Mora Robust. As I'd like to learn to sharpen properly before buying expensive knife. Really don't know what to buy to maintain. Stone ,strop etc. Could you recommend what to buy for a beginner here in Ireland ??
I use a 2 inch × 12 inch board strop on my Mora's and the peace of leather on it is fairly thin so it's almost like stropping on the board itself. I use my finger to hold the bevel down in position and gently but swifty drag the little board strop towards me each pass keeping the blade stationary. I think it may be because certain people strop on flexible leather that is not fastened to a flat solid surface and the leather bends over the edge of the knife making this awful bevel pattern. Or bad stropping technique? it needs to be done precisely. like dont un knowingly slightly drag the edge over the strop surface at the vary end of a pass. That's my take on it but I'm definitely going to keep a closer eye on it now that's for sure.
Thanks so much for the clear explanation, but I have one question: what happena when you have to sharp a black scandi knive like Mora Black bushcraft? You should remove the black finish when you put bevel flat to sharp it. How can I preserve it? Thanks
They come with a micro bevel. Just sharpen that if you want to preserve the coating. Kind of defeats the benefit of a scandi so I sharpened mine flat, which removed the coating and then re- added the micro bevel (its very much a micro bevel, tiny). I like the look of the shiny metal along with the black. You’ll need to keep it oiled though once you do that.
Thanks, nice video! :-) Question: Let's assume I'm camping, I need to sharpen my scandi knife and I don't have my flat sharpening stone with me. I would be using "random stuff" like car windows, bottom of a cup (not that I have these two when camping, it's just an example LOL), river rock, leather belt etc. So under these conditions should I expect to end up with a convex instead of the original scandi?
Hey Michal! Good question. In using random tools like that, yes you aren't going to keep a flat scandi. The best you could do is probably a small micro bevel or convexing the edge like you said. However, I'd recommend taking your stone with you! Its actually pretty common amongst higher level bushcrafters, who know how important it is to maintain your gear. :-) Give it a little soak in a river or pond, and go to work!
The answer is yes, you'll get a secondary bevel and most likely a convex one. Don't worry about it, you'll probably like it better. Restore when back home if you still want to.
![Repairing the worst MORA BUSHCRAFT I have ever seen! - [WATERSTONE SHARPENING]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cuZHrq-zQ4Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![Repairing the worst MORA BUSHCRAFT I have ever seen! - [WATERSTONE SHARPENING]](/img/tr.png)
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If you ever come into a real survival situation, just sit down and start sharpening your knife.
In less than 15 minutes someone will appear and tell you how to do it right in his opinion.
This also works for cooking animals.
Underrated comment
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😂😂😂
🤣😂🤣🇧🇷
One other option for stropping a scandi grind without creating a convex edge is to use a hardwood strop. As a furniture-maker, this is what I do for my chisels between sharpening them with stones. All you have to do is cut a piece of hardwood so you have a very flat portion of end grain exposed and rub stropping compound into the open pores. You then have a flat, hard, durable surface charged with the fine stropping abrasive that will not convex your edge the way a leather strop will. It works incredibly well and saves me leaving the bench to sharpen on my stones. It also save wear on my nice stones and costs virtually nothing.
@Donny p. I was also a professional hand tool woodworker, reliant on ultra sharp planes and chiselsand I echo your advice. However, I would bet a fair amount of money that @Least 90% ofthe knife fetishists reading this thread Would not be able to plane a flat surface on the end grain of a piece of hardwood. That is why I recommend MDF -. It’s flat and it’s cheap.
@@MrNetnic I’m one of the dirty fetishists you speak of. Firstly, I hope you’re having a wonderful day being a worthy blade owner unlike us fetishists who get hard for sharpening blades we never use. Secondly, can you think of any way to obtain a small piece of mdf without having to purchase an entire board? I’m not a tool guy and always feel lost in the Home Depot unless I’m staring at a shiny knife edge attached to a tool I have no understanding of. Anyway, is there anything small that’s made of mdf i could purchase that I could strop my skandi grinds on. Because if I can’t achieve a hair shaving edge then I can’t get hard. And if I can’t get hard my wife gets angry. My marriage is on the line here. So, I’m begging you to once again impart your knowledge upon me and tell me how to acquire a small piece of mdf.
@@bradlarrison191 construction site scrap bins, also the hardware store will generally cut that plank down for you, if you ask nicely ofc. but is having some excess wood ever really a bad thing? your wife apparently thinks not haha
Scandi is delicate. I have no problem with the slightly convexed edge. Stays sharp longer. And I take the stone to the blade. It's so much more controllable to me.
Using the white board makes a great video. You explain things well with the illustrations.
Thanks so much! I appreciate that :-)
"Pure" Scandi grinds IMHO have one
purpose WHITTLING.
But even then as someone who whittles about an hour a day I find a scandiVex or full flatVex blend to be superior .
Knife use through hundreds of hours will teach you much about grinds and which ones work best.
Ruining a scandi is when a person puts it through a worksharp but basic microvexing an edge is natural. If done right it will save you steel and money.
Some might argue that a scadi-vex is better than a true scandi, and it was used originally, the flat scandi grind is a relatively new thing, that only came about with modern machinery in the factories of the last century or so.
Aaaaand that is another reason the low end Mora's are great, you can sacrifice one or two to learning how to sharpen Scandi grinds correctly on a real Scandi grind with decent steel without ruining more expensive knives.
absolutely!
@Gray Au i dont think scandi sucks in general, in my opinion it is sometimes too demanding for the steel quality. For exmple, my Mora Companion came with scandi grind with a micro bevel (i dont like to call this sabre grind since the secondary bevel was only about quarter of milimeter wide). When i tried to sharpen it like a full scandi, i ended with an edge that was to thin and got bent during casual cutting task. Instead of reprofiling the whole blade or returning to the secondary bevel i went for the scandivex grind and cant comply about the edge retention now.
@@s7r49 Yeah..I've wasted countless hours trying to sharpen a "scandi" Mora, until I took a new one, put it under a microscope, and observed a distinct secondary / micro bevel. What is the point of them being sold as Scandi grinds, when they aren't scandi grinds? Literally the whole point is to have a very easy to sharpen profile that anyone can do, even out in the field.
Amen to that
@Ryan Boswood In my experience its all about practice. Practice and reasonable quality stones, which should be in ideal case pretty flat (no need to go crazy, but it helps for me).
As far as I know, the scandi grinds are tricky in the way that while they allow you to set the sharpening angle on pretty easily, you need to take off quite a lot of material in comparison to a secondary bevel grind. This means that any minor mistake that you make gets amplified quite a lot. For example, if you tend to rock or tilt the blade on the end or beginning of each stroke, after a greater number of repetitions it might eventually round your bevel, making it slightly convex. After that, finding the correct angle to sharpen on again can be a bit difficult.
If I were you, I wouldnt be really afraid of ruining cheap knives - I am not sure what you ment by "totally destroying", but unless you remove so much material that the knife isnt able to hold up, you most likely haven't done anything what somebody with some sharpening experience couldnt fix. The only reason why I would not recommed starting with expensive knives is the fact that you could damage them cosmetically, and while this is fine with cheap things, you most likely want your more valuable ones to be nice and shiny/satine/stonewash/whatever finish you like :P
I've heard that Scandivex is the absolute best edge you can have on a bushcraft knife so thats why they strop with compounds.
They hold an edge somewhat longer. You don't need necessarily need a strop for any reason with any bevel. A strop is for honing, and polishing out the microserration as well as the steel itself, your edge will potentially last longer (if you didn't try to sharpen with a strop and make your edge atomically thin) and be prettier, not necessarily perform better.
Convex is the best bevel for holding an edge, which means it is the best bevel period (but especially for bushcraft/survival)
@@SoftBreadSoft The reason our knifes have flat bevels is to give good support while carving wood, Like the sole of a plane. Its also resonable good at general work but does not really good at standing up to abuse, traditionally axes/hatchets or perhaps sami chopping knives or sometimes a second "beater knife" were used for that, either with sligthly steeper angle "scandi" edges for carving use or convex grind for chopping use. Convex grind is better at cutting throug stuff, and as most mora knives are used on the workplace or home to cut, pry and poke around the manufacturers ship them with slightly to shallow angle grinds with the micro bevel to make them better cutters and to hold up to abuse better.
@@borjesvensson8661 Sharpened my mora to a true scandi, only to find out that it made the knife worthless by doing so. That steel with that true zero edge simply didn't hold up to *any* actual use. Light wood carving mangled the delicate edge.
Wound up having to put the secondary bevel back on. Works fine now.
Mors Kochanski used a strop, Ray Mears applies a micro bevel, and furthermore, traditional Scandinavian knives were very high convex grinds. A zero grind is actually very delicate on the cutting edge, and can chip out easily.
Yup, also; Cody Lundin uses sandpaper, no stones (for more than 30 years now).
On cardboard or something like that.
A little convex is not bad but good.
And what Kyle gets from customers, seems to be cases of completely focusing on the apex when stropping.
Then you get the overly rounding effect.
When keeping the whole bevel on the leather or sandpaper, it will work fine.
No stones needed.
This makes a lot of sense. I just got my first scandi grind knife and the #1 reason was ease of sharpening. So I better make sure it STAYS easy to sharpen!
Thanks Kyle, this is exactly what I've been saying about all knives that do not have a secondary bevel at the cutting edge. To say that a Scandi grind is so easy to sharpen in the field is just NOT true. Yes you can put a sort of edge on it for a while, but, as you've said you're actually ruining your grind. What happens in most cases is that the less arduous solution is to sharpen at a steeper angle, thus changing the profile, till eventually it's mostly only useful as a doorstop it's so steep. The cynic in me says that the reason it is so widely recommended by experts is because it has to go back so often to an expert for proper sharpening. But I guess we all have to make a living. Most people who say it's easy to sharpen are people who have some considerable expertise with knives. For beginners it's a nightmare. One thing I do concede is that the Scandi grind is good for woodworking tools, as the angle is similar to that of a chisel, only double sided. For most other tasks like peeling, food prep, skinning, dressing meat etc flat and hollow grinds outperform the Scandi grind by a long way. It is most definitely NOT a solution for ALL camp tasks. For a SHTF survival situation it has serious shortcomings. Sharpening a hollow or sabre grind knife is actually quite easy, even to get a perfect edge, as there is much less probability for making a serious error, as your diagrams so clearly illustrate! Well done on that. Take away: from this it becomes clear that specific tasks around camp require specific knives, with the necessary characteristics to work effectively, and provide a pleasant experience while doing so. Yes, this means you might need more than one knife. However, if you like hacking it and expending lots of energy you can use just about anything out there and eventually the task may get done and leave you with all ten fingers and a full quota of blood inside. Thanks again.
@@beowulf_of_wall_st S
A hollow grind doesn't have a "flat".
@@beowulf_of_wall_st Of course not, and I never intimated that it was.
You can strop with compound directly on a flat board. The leather of the strop compresses resulting in the rounding of the apex. For a bushcraft knife you might actually want this to strengthen the edge but when I am carving (mora 106) I use compound straight onto the board and it keeps a flatter bevel.
EXACTLY !!! If I really wanted to strop, I would use compound, or the slurry off an 8000 grit stone, on a piece of MDF. As far as I am concerned, the ultimate Scandi grind is the ultimate fragile edge. You are not taking your knife into the wilderness to make a fine furniture, Or to cut pieces of paper FFS. A knife that you take camping with you is a relatively crude tool That needs a combination of reasonable sharpness and reliable edge strength.
Sanding belts and leather strops will form slight convex bevels, even working on a wet stone by hand will tend to convex as the wrist flexes. A fixed angle jig would form a flat edge. Thick blades over 1/8th" tend not to perform well with a Scandinavian grind as the edge angle is too severe. My family bloodlines came from Sami of Inari and some old blades I have seen are all convex edged (both on 'leuku' and 'puukko' sized blades). I have heard from people who have researched this topic that mechanized mass production resulted in what we believe is the flat grind profile 'Scandi' we see today. Thanks for opening up this discussion :)
I sharpen all my Mora's on sandpaper and keep them sharp by stropping. The sanding blocks with spring clips have the somewhat soft backing. Perfect for sharpening a scandi grind knife to convex it slightly..
No stones needed. And the scandivex is best.
A slight convex grind.
Makes the edge tougher, but still very sharp.
I just purchased a scandi grind folder, this was superbly illustrated. And therefore super appreciated to extend the life of my knife through your knowledge. Greetings from New Zealand 🙏
For my user scandi's I actually want that small secondary convex edge. They even call it a scandivex. So I strop them before even taking them out in the field.
A true scandi is way to weak for serious carving most of all some harder woods. The edge will roll on you.
I tested a true factory scandi knife in Colombia and the first piece of hardwood I tried to cut the edge had a visible roll.
So what you say is correct but who wants a true scandi knife for actual work in the field?
Sounds like the temper is too soft on those blades
@@declanthiele No. Just a full scandi makes the edge to weak. To thin no matter the temper or steel. It all depends on the angle of the scandi of course. After some stropping these blades can withstand batoning even. So if it's just cutting fruits and vegetables (soft materials) keep that super thin edge. If you also want to do some woodwork give it a strop depending on the angle of the scandi.
It becomes a scandivex. [2]
And it may performs even better, hold an edge better, less chips. I like it.
Although, I try not to raise the angle not to convex to much.
Last time on stones, I've modifeid my Mora, reduced the angle, raised the bevel line and stroped. So it seems like a tommy pukko. Bites much deeper in wood and the convex edge reduces the chiping issue. I like it. Still make great feathers.
The Mora Companion used to come with the sabre grind, not sure if it still does, but the last one I bought had the secondary micro bevel. I got rid of the micro bevel as soon as I got it home. I have found that the skandi is my favorite blade grind for its versatility and its simplicity.
Very good explanation as to why scandis can get ruined. Thanks for sharing!
This is the best video I have seen so far explaining these two different grinds
i hear people using secondary grind/edge/bevel interchangeably with micro grind/edge/bevel, but here's how I like to make the distinction. On saber grinds, you can clearly see the "secondary" bevel, it's certainly nowhere near as long as the primary, but you can clearly see that edge. Whereas for scandi, I do sharpen (since it typically doesn't need reprofiling, on higher grit stones) them to scandi zero, but raise them ever so slightly for a micro edge on finer/finishing stone. These micro edges are visually not as prominent as the secondary edge on a saber grind. Of course another thing to point out is that the primary bevel on saber is a lot shallower than the angle of a scandi knife. Anyway, long story short, I like having micro bevels on scandi knives; I feel you get over 90% of the cutting performance (if not more) and a lot tougher edge. I also love sabers too though; one can never have too many knives (unless you ask my wife....)
I agree with you. I also microbevel my scans is because a true Scandinavian edge on my Finnish puukkos and I see the edge literally flexing while working on harder woods. I know that puukkos are meant to whittle softer woods though. But where I live we have harder woods as well.
A week Scandi edge is not practical for me.
Okay. Scandi - use a flat stone. Now I know what I keep doing wrong.
Please tell me how do sharpen AND MAINTAIN a sabre grind.
Excellent and to the point video.
Your tutelage is incredible. You explained it, clearly, and in a way that helped others, saved them money, and did you no financial food aside from bolstering your credibility. You did quite well.
I've now subscribed.
I just use the back of my belt. Works great. After batoning a 1075 Condor Bushlore, that's all I need to do to hone the edge.
Thanks. Nice to know that strops are better WITHOUT compounds. Really makes things easier...
Excellent illustration! I said out loud to myself: good guy... He definitely knows what he's talking about!!!
Great simplified lesson for an amateur as myself. Thank you and Merry Christmas. 🎄
The first time I did a zero grind on my scandi knife, it was scary sharp. But the edge didn't last. I enjoyed using it but I took some chips and rolls. Now I can't be bothered taking even more steel and time to fix that. So I keep factory microbevel edge on the scandi.
Thanks for the tip, I have been stropping my blades, but I'm going to try your advice out and see what difference it makes.
Makes sense to me! Time to be more careful on the leather.
thanks for watching!
Good video. I skipped watching this video every time it popped up because I just assumed it was about people sharpening their scandi's as if they were regular knives and adding a secondary bevel. Now I'm glad I did watch it, I've been touching up my Mora on a straight razor strop and it has given it a slight convex. From now on I'll only use the plain leather side instead of the compound side.
I’ve noticed a lot of people using strops tend to flick their wrist at the end causing the edge to round off.
What irks me is a new scandi showing up with a micro bevel right out of the factory (Garberg, etc). I dont get the point of that..
For field sharpening my A2/3v/Elmax scandis I use a 1.5 x 6 inch piece of ~3-4mm thick carbon fiber plate with naked thin smooth leather on one side, and the thin 3M microfinishing lapping adhesive sheet on the other. That stuff is amazing and weighs nothing.
I’ve made a few of them, one has Tormek paste on the leather for Elmax blades.
The trick to the strop side is using thin hard leather that doesn’t deform/compress much when the blade is pushed down on it so that it doesn’t “wrap” upwards around the edge causing it to round off leaving micro convex.
Although, I’ve noticed more tiny edge dings what were not developing when I had some micro convexing in the past using a thicker leather with compound or paste.
So I guess its a trade-off.
Funny, i stumbled across this video at 2 am and it just solved my recent knife predicament. I made a new strop out of some scrap veg. tan and i stropped my mora 511. I thought it would be shaving sharp but it couldn't even cut paper! I thought my angle was too steep and i goof'd up but this video just answered that question.
You get knives with a convex edge because people are sharpening them on stones and don't know how to hold the proper angle. They rock the blade as they pull it down the stone and cause the angle to change as they pull/push the blade. On top of that people who don't know how to sharpen their knives and try, are seldom using the same angle 2 strokes in a row. Stropping has little to do with the damaged edges you see. Most people don't even know what a strop is, much less actually own one.
Excellent video. I used to have this problem off and on till I figured out what you've explained very nicely with the diagrams.
Good tip. I recently bought a scandi grind knife for bushcraft and am looking forward to a easier method of sharpening. I would have stropped it the way you warned not to. You saved me some frustration.
Thanks YJ!
I would disagree a little bit. With practice and understanding how different stropping methods affect an edge a scandi can be touched up nicely many times before a stone is needed. Different strokes for different folks of course. There will always be error with a human hand, even on the stone. Proper stropping can be quicker, easier and less wear on the edge. I like a tiny relief bevel anyways.
Well said bro. Even my blacksmith drives me crazy by putting on a convex edge with his belts, and when I want to put on a decent V edge (scandi) I need to sharpen around 3-4 days - each day, at least 2 x 3 hours on my stones which is absolutely a stone and time killing, useless piece of unnecessary work. I hate it.
Scandi its really hard to maintain perfectly flat because the stone wears out and then getting it back perfectly sharp becomes almost impossible. I have a mora that gave me a lot of grief until i put it on the work sharp and convert it into convex. It worked best on 15 degrees angle and now the knife is really sharp and you can easily refine the edge on a strop.
Never owned a Scandi knife and had no idea about this. thanks for the info bro!
my pleasure Kev!
Thank you for taking the myth out of knife sharpening and presenting clear facts. This channel has helped me tremendously.
good info on how to prevent damage on scandi grinds, but you also helped me with some insight on how to get a good convex grind as well! thank you!
Sabre grinds usually higher than Scandi. Not just secondary bevel or not
@whois this i have seen you comment at least 7 times on different videos tonight 😂
@@jkittle05 is that all? Gotta find them all!
Whois This 😂 i’ll try i’ve seen you’ve been interested in neck knives over the last 5 years
Thank you very much for the info! The over-convexing has always been an issue with my scandi grind knives.
This is a great tutorial for a true scandi zero grind. However, keep in mind that alot of scandi grinds actually have a micro bevel. This goes for most moraknives and puukos.
Sincerely, a guy who ruined his terävä jääkäripuukko 120 by watching this tutorial.
same ruined my mora 120 yesturday...
I feel you. I remember several years ago I had this awesome hand forged puukko and I wanted to convert it from sabre grind to true Scandi. After hours of grinding I finally succeeded only to find the quality of the blade reduced. Later I realized it originally had a scandivex grind with a Microbevel.
With my scandi ground carving knives I'll strop them in between sharpening with compound but I use a very flat, glass backed kangaroo leather strop which reduces the convexing problem a lot. I also don't use much downward pressure, just enough to hold the knife in place. And when I notice that not working well anymore I sharpen them on metal diamond plate sharpener. Honestly scandi ground knives are a quite a bit more work when it comes to maintenance but if you need the capabilities you can't beat them.
sometimes i find scandì to be too acute, and that makes the edge fairly week. which works fine for normal bush crafting(wood, rope or animals) which is kind of what its supposed to be made for. but for normal day uses donst work that well. so I sometimes sharpen them as saber. that makes maintenance much quicker, also because the edge doesn't get damaged as much.
They also come to shallow from the factory. About 22° to 26° is recomended for woodworking. I think mora is about 19°
A lot of knives advertised with a scandi grind come with a secondary bevel though, even from Mora.
Awesome for the tip getting my first scandi bushcraft knife .
I really needed this video. I'm having this problem and couldn't work out what was happening. After watching your video I think that this is the case.
Thanks
I would prefer the small convex compared to the sabre grind
What if I want a convex grind, will stropping on a leather keep my convex edge? Or what if I have a micro-bevel on a flat or scandi grind, how do I resharpen that micro-bevel?
Stropping on leather will help to keep your convex, for sure. You would sharpen a micro bevel just as you would sharpen any knife, say a buck 110, with a small secondary bevel.
It’s not I practice to remove the steel and fix the grind properly, if the knife was maintained properly in the first place the steel would have been already removed with each edge touch up it’s just a lot of work!
A very good reason why I do my stropping on a pine board (no leather) with compound directly on the wood. And when it begins to deform, it’s kindling! Obviously, it needs to be a perfectly clear board with straight grain.
If you have a problem with stropping a scandi grind its because you dont know how to use a strop, i just use an old leather belt holding it with my feet at hold the other end in my hand and i never had a problem with my edge by doing that.
FYI, Mora knives come from the factory with a micro bevel. The company intended their knives to be inexpensive, so they don’t use premium steel (except for the Garberg), so the micro bevel is necessary for a more durable edge.
The good news is that the bevel really is micro, so it doesn’t take too long to bring it to a true scandi. The bad news is their scandi edge isn’t very durable.
Wrong. Both are already durable. Just the expensive one is added another point on durability.
This is precisely why I don't use stropping compound. It was never used in the old days. Stops were just a piece of leather, and it's just meant to put a nice smooth polish on the blade. And stropping also makes sure you've removed your false edge (burr).
Stropping compound was used, but not strops. My grandfather slapped a sock bag with a mix of talc and rottenstone and who knows what other magic ingredients onto a piece of flat wood, and dragged the knife over that until the edge shone. He used the same bag as a styptic if any of us kids cut ourselves.
Man I need to see this video. I literally am the guy you've described ruining the blade. Thanks for this
This is why I never use a strop. I have a 3/32x2x4 inch hardened steel plate for honing the edge.
Fully agree that stropping (especially if done improperly) will ruin a Scandi grind. A ceramic rod or a rod system (like Lansky Turn Box or Spyderco Sharpmaker) is a relatively easy way to maintain true Scandi grinds .
There's nothing wrong with a micro convexed scandi grind, doesn't really affect performance much but helps with edge holding.
It most certainly affects performance. You can no longer chisel with the blade, as when it rests on the bevel, the real edge is not near the wood.
It also becomes much more difficult to whittle woods that split easily, as you create a wedging effect where the edge doesn't touch the wood and controls the cut. The amount of tearing increases significantly if you have a secondary bevel.
Thank you, that explains why my blade edges seem to be dulling on 1/8 inch tanned leather cowhide with polishing compound, but I get a great polish using compound on thin suede like leather (from an old welding glove) stapled to a piece of wood. I'm applying to much pressure when stropping and the 1/8" leather has give to it where i'm rolling into the edge and eating it away as to where the thin leather has the hard wood backing to support my blade edge as i polish it. Eye opening O_O
Glad you're progressing in your techniques my friend! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the great vid. I notice a lot of people not lapping their stone either
Since the topic is sharpening I want to share a recent discovery for me. I have tried everything I could find for sharpening. I have used oil stones, water stones, diamond stones, carbide, ceramic and finally I found the one the easiest and fastest sharpening method for me I should say. I bought a block sharpener two crossed butchers steels in a plastic handle. Easy as pie all my knives are sharp.
These sharpeners can be somewhat effective for a short time, but they have many drawbacks. :-) I would highly recommend investing some time into learning true traditional knife sharpening of this caliber.
Thanks for the reply. I agree you need to know the basics of sharpening but that little tool works wonders for me.
Yeah, they can be simple and fast! The problem is that they don't offer you an option to reprofile your entire bevel, so you just end up with an increasingly thick edge. Know what I mean? :-) Whatever works though! Thanks for watching and commenting my friend
Makes sense to me. I see many posts saying a secondary bevel prevents rolling of the edge. What say you?
It doesn’t prevent rolling but it does make the edge significantly tougher
Try a Smith Custom they WON'T roll
Yes it does. They should really be about 22° to 26° but few are from factory.
Made my mora a true scandi, got chips and roles without abusing it. Gave it a convex micro bevel and it's much sturdier now. True scandi makes sense for carpenters and prepping food and game, that's it
These are very correct tips. Thank you from the other side of the ocean!
Got Eräpuu Nahkatako with micro bevel. Mora also puts micro bevels at their knives. Here is the quote from their site: "Most of our knives have the True Scandi Grind that includes the typical micro bevel of a total edge angle of about 35-45° which is about 0.05 - 0.5 mm high to make the edge less fragile and with better edge retention." I guess they just don't know how to make "proper" scandi grind 😀
Well good deal, I have been taking all of my blades to a true or mostly true scandi grind.
Seems easier to maintain the edge also.
hi there! great explanation.what are the best grits to sharpen the knife? just for bushcraft and utilitarian purposes, not aesthetics
I keep hearing people say how easy a scandi is to sharpen .. I disagree... The large amount of metal you need to remove to sharpen it correctly means that it is hard work to maintain.. A saber, flat or better still a hollow grind is a much better all around choice for most people xx
Absolutely agree. I don't get how it's easier. There's a massive amount of edge surface to remove material from, compared to a regular V edge.
Most people would call that "scandivex" where there is only the primary and it's a bit convexed
I doubt ancient humans used a completely flat primary bevel anyway
Would be difficult
You're right Eric. Scandivex. I'm simply saying that when a scandi has been convexed, I turn it into a sabre! thanks for watching bud!
Weiderfan a sabre is far higher on the initial grind usually double the hight of a scandi. Dude you are not giving very accurate info here. I can email you a diagram of grinds if you need clarification.
In Scandinavia, honing was traditionally done on schist, which naturally breaks up into very flat stones. So yes, flat grinds were easier in Scandinavia than many other places.
Traditionally scandinavian grinds would (and still do, at least for those that know what they're doing sharpening knives för sloyd/slöjd) actually have a hollow ground bevel, done with a big rotating stone, that is reground once in a while, you then hone this hollow ground bevel with a sharpening stone until you've worked the edge back so far that the actual bevel angle has become to big, then it's back to the rotating grinding stone for regrinding the correct bevel angle again.
You can of course get flat bevels on a rotating grinding stone as well, you first grind in the hollow grind with the knife positioned crosswise to the rotation of the stone, after that's done you flatten it out with the bevel paralell to the rotation of the stone.
also they might have used stone blades which are still known to be sharper than anything that can be ground out of steel ;)
"Under the microscope, you could see the obsidian scalpel had divided
individual cells in half, and next to it, the steel scalpel incision
looked like it had been made by a chainsaw."
from:
edition.cnn.com/2015/04/02/health/surgery-scalpels-obsidian/index.html
I have always used the upper part of my chipawa boots to strop when /if needed but I don't cut paper with my knives I think all that is hokey, for show but to each his own and it is their $ . I have way to much to do other than sharpen knives. I use a ceramic rod from my grand father for kitchen knives to keep them sharp. These are what I worry about, and that usually takes a few seconds.I usually sharpen my other knives when it's to crappy outside to do other stuff.good video thanks for posting
if it isn't sharp enough to cut paper, then there is no point in stropping on your boots. My knives are wayyy past 'paper cutting sharp' before they even touch a stop, since a strop is only for final honing. It isn't aggressive enough before that stage, to really make a notable difference.
Good information. I have sharpened many knives, but all of them have microbevels. Just got my first Scandi Grind, soon it feels odd not keeping the large bevel touching the stone while sharpening. I rarely strop, but I do routinely hone on ceramic rod. Would honing be a problem with Scandi grinds, since the contact is made only on the edge and not the entire bevel?
Short & concise. Excellent!
Well apparently I put a saber grind on my mora still cuts well tho , maybe I will invest the time to make it a scandi again anyway thanks for the video
What do you think about something like an MDF strop loaded with compound? Shouldn't convex the edge at all, but still polishes the bevel.
“Scandi” grinds with a very tiny micro bevel has far better edge retention and no negative impact in cutting various materials than a fragile zero ground scandi. Zero ground scandis are good for wood work and that is all. As a multi purpose knife they are terrible.
That said, the bevels do need grinding to zero every now and then or the apex will become very dull.
As for stropping, the leather should be around 1mm thick, loaded, and done with the full bevel on the leather. Or don’t strop at all.
Either way, a very tiny micro bevel (barely visible) is needed if you want edge retention that can last months.
TH-cam commenters are so funny. Some guy just said the exact opposite of what you said. "Scandi grind is good for multi purpose take, but are terrible for wood working." LOL. Opinions are like... And they all stink.
@@xenonram
Well, Scandinavian wood workers would disagree with that other post. Lol. Just try each and what works best for you is best (for you).
Found this video just in time,I thought if I kept on top of things with the strop it would be better for the blade but I see now how that is not right,mine was starting to convex after only a few strops.
Yea it can happen quickly!
Good video with diagram. I would show a short example of the blade sharpened on a whetstone or diamond plate though to avoid the problem altogether.
Scandi vex is the way for me, double chisel (what this guy is calling "true scandi" Dulls way too fast (granted my only experience is with mora)...put a convex edge on all of them and they preform much better in all aspects (slicing, edge retention ect)
bilbobaggins8876 Hell no. You're making me cringe just thinking about ruining a scandi.
Then, I dont know maybe I'm not using it for the "right"things....not sharpening it correctly. My only experience is with Mora high carbon companion and TOPs mini scandi. The Mora I was sharpening all the time, the tops came with a convexed edge and held up much better.....did the same with the mora and it performs much better....Sorry If i gave you nightmares!
I feel like anybody who is sharpening freehand is creating a convex edge weather they want to admit it or not. Any slight variation in the angle you hold the knife will convex the edge and we are humans after all not machines
Moras come from the factory with to shallow edge angle for woodworking and a micro bevel to make better cutters
Really enjoyed this and love the new episode format! I think this will be a great series. I'm not so focused on sharpening techniques and I know others aren't as well so this will offer a really nice service for those of us that need to learn more about how to sharpen and maintain our edges! Good job! P.S. how's the leg?👍👍👍
Thanks PG! I'll continue with some of this stuff for sure! leg is doing well! Coming along!
Really glad to hear it bud!
Great vid! Helps me alot. May I ask what degree should a true scandi be? My tops bob scandi is at 11.8 degrees with a 20 degree micro bevel. My work tuff gear mt bushman’s scandi is at 8.9 degrees with a 20 degree micro bevel. Both are like this from the factory. Was thinking to make them both true scandi’s. Do you have any advise for me?
I prefer a zero convex. But my scandis are always on ceramic stones. Great vid man.
I've seen a lot of scandi's like this over the years. I always knew it as a scandi vex. It is a fairly common thing being that a lot of people just touch up edges in the field with something small like a dc4 and a small strop rather than taking the time to run it over the stone when they get home. On another note I always use a loaded strop on a scandi but only when it comes off the stone or ceramic. Anyways , that's my 2 cents worth. Thanks for another very informative video none the less and cheers till the next one!
thanks Chad! Yes, I should have thrown in the word scandivex, but most of these knives don't come from the factory with a vexed edge. most have a single bevel. If people don't mind the changes in edge geometry and sharpening style, it isn't a problem! I'm simply stating a recurring trend that I see! :-)
No doubt bud. I was just saying.
Weiderfan , mora use a micro bevel on all their knives because a true scandi is just to weak. A scandivex is not ruining your knife its improving it tenfold.
Derek Davies Exactly, I love my Garbergs micro bevel, I wasn't sure if I was gonna remove it or not but once I used it I clearly felt the difference much better.
Yes they do. They put a micro bevel on the scandi. Do your homework, i have with my own eyes received a mora from the factory and looked at the edge under magnification. What i saw was a secondary bevel. A clear secondary grind. You are full of it sorry.
good stuff Kyle,
Just got a Helle Skala Folder. Scandi secondary grind, but with a micro-bevel on the primary!
Thanks for pointing that out, and everyone thx for the good info in the comments!
lol thought id learn a tip but allready knew this on scandi grinds.i prefer em so i generally have a bunch laying around.i never have really used strops.not really my style.sharpining stones was what i was tuaght at a young age and i just never shifted.and discovering the scandi made the use of the stones so much easier.i still dont totally know why they say scandi grinds suck at food prep though.my main bush blade handles food like a champ.but to be fair it is also considerably thinner than alot of these giant rambo blades i see people stomping through the woods with.i understand the inclination to have a thick spine on a blade but i have never broke a blade in the woods either.thinner blades tend to slice better,its just geometry.and i baton with these thin blades just fine.just need to know when and what to baton and when to just pull out the saw and axe.i shake my head everytime i see a fool trying to split a log whith a knife and wonder why they allways break lol.must be that the knife is shitty.cant be opperator error at all.i feel alot of this hype on having a huge and super thick spined blade for bushcraft due to lack of proper skills has givin the scandi somewhat of an unfair negitive veiw.if your knifes edge has the same profile of a damn axe then yeah,you will chop wood well and suffer at food prep.we should continue to strive for dispelling misinformation and minimising unnessisary hypes and fads.we may find that we can get away with far less than we assume.remember the first settlers to call america home used knives exactly like old hickories.thin butchering blades.it was just what they had readily availible.and they often had to do tons of camp chores on the day to day.what we call primitive living was the only way of life back then.they managed fine.
Thank you very much for this video, it's very very helpful. I had a hunch of this proven theory about using strops with compound that can round off the edge because the grind is not lying completely flat on the surface of the sharpening tool. does this also apply to slightly convexed scandi grinds? Is there a video for secondary V Edge sharpening?
So the sabre bevel is the micro edge you were removing from your Mora video right? You were sharpening and honing a scandi bevel back onto it and then you polished the entire grind to a mirror polish....it was exciting.
Great video, answered a question I’d had for a long time. I’d seen that but couldn’t work out why it was happening. I’ll stick with the stone.
Stop winging the grinding is doing the work!! And it doesn't take a ton of time either!!
Amazing! I was waiting someone do this video long time ago! No one know how much my scandi knives are suffering! Loll!
Thanks bro!
haha glad you enjoyed it my friend!
So then so you avoid at all cost using the sharpening stone integrated into the sheaf of the Mora bushcraft survivor knife?
Just got a Mora Robust. As I'd like to learn to sharpen properly before buying expensive knife. Really don't know what to buy to maintain. Stone ,strop etc. Could you recommend what to buy for a beginner here in Ireland ??
I don't have a knife with a skandi grind yet. But how often would you need to sharpen it, because that's a lot of surface to sharpen?
I use a 2 inch × 12 inch board strop on my Mora's and the peace of leather on it is fairly thin so it's almost like stropping on the board itself. I use my finger to hold the bevel down in position and gently but swifty drag the little board strop towards me each pass keeping the blade stationary. I think it may be because certain people strop on flexible leather that is not fastened to a flat solid surface and the leather bends over the edge of the knife making this awful bevel pattern. Or bad stropping technique? it needs to be done precisely. like dont un knowingly slightly drag the edge over the strop surface at the vary end of a pass. That's my take on it but I'm definitely going to keep a closer eye on it now that's for sure.
Thanks so much for the clear explanation, but I have one question: what happena when you have to sharp a black scandi knive like Mora Black bushcraft? You should remove the black finish when you put bevel flat to sharp it. How can I preserve it? Thanks
Hey, As long as you stay flat on the scandi bevel, you should affect the black coating!
Kyle Noseworthy - Weiderfan are you guys talking about the same thing? Will it or will it not remove finish?
They come with a micro bevel. Just sharpen that if you want to preserve the coating. Kind of defeats the benefit of a scandi so I sharpened mine flat, which removed the coating and then re- added the micro bevel (its very much a micro bevel, tiny). I like the look of the shiny metal along with the black. You’ll need to keep it oiled though once you do that.
Thanks, nice video! :-)
Question: Let's assume I'm camping, I need to sharpen my scandi knife and I don't have my flat sharpening stone with me. I would be using "random stuff" like car windows, bottom of a cup (not that I have these two when camping, it's just an example LOL), river rock, leather belt etc. So under these conditions should I expect to end up with a convex instead of the original scandi?
Hey Michal! Good question. In using random tools like that, yes you aren't going to keep a flat scandi. The best you could do is probably a small micro bevel or convexing the edge like you said.
However, I'd recommend taking your stone with you! Its actually pretty common amongst higher level bushcrafters, who know how important it is to maintain your gear. :-) Give it a little soak in a river or pond, and go to work!
The answer is yes, you'll get a secondary bevel and most likely a convex one. Don't worry about it, you'll probably like it better. Restore when back home if you still want to.
@@kyle_noseworthy Higher level bushcraft and bringing more gear (a flat stone) is a contradiction.
Good for some of us to know and good for others to have the reminder. Thanks!
a lot of times a reminder is all that's needed!