ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2023
- This is Melee's Only Nerfed Character Except Super Smash Bros Melee has never been patched? Lets talk about the ice climbers and their strange history and how they overcame it.
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sad to see Fly Amanita not get any mention whatsoever, despite being *the* big user of handoff tech prior to the wobbling ban and getting consistently high placings- 30th on the 2015 power rankings, and holding 1st in the insanely competitive socal PR for a bit. i guess it doesn't fit the narrative of ICs of that period only knowing how to hit a button at 120bpm, but it's a wild snub to make
Yeah I fucked up on this for sure I realised after I was almost finished with the vid pretty big miss and I accept that so I'll pin this comment so people can hopefully read this
@@ChalerYT next time reply to such comments with, Sorry who? 😉
@@WhatsWrongBuddy fly is a legend bud
Fly picked their camp, at least players like wobbles and chu dat spoke out against wobbling even as they abused it
@@gave2haze wdym by fly picked their camp?
Fun Fact: Wobbles actually wanted wobbling banned because he thought it was super broken. However, since no one listened to him initially, he decided to use it a bunch during his career to prove how busted it was.
tbf that was a quote from shortly after it discovered and the skill of players was much lower, I'm pretty sure he changed his mind on that later
The Damdai approach lol
Damdai is a Street Fighter 2 player that was preaching up and down that Akuma was still broken in a new version of the game, got ignored, and went on a multi-tournament tear with him to prove a point.
Then Akuma got banned.
Wobbles also didn't come up with the technique nor did he name it. It got named "wobbling" because of just how much Wobbles would shamelessly spam it and brought attention to it.
@@GinkgoPetespecifically Damdai did this for HD Remix. HDR's balancing team was led by David Sirlin. Sirlin went on about how he created the best version of SF2 and acheived the impossible by balancing Akuma
Damdai set out to prove both statements were very wrong
I miss Wobbles. One of the best commentators of all time, especially with HMW. HMWobbles come back 😭
"I can fix him"
I dont think anyone can fix Leffen at this point
hey! im in the clip at 4:23 ! (the bright green hoodie on the right.)
the subject of the clip, (a player who went by Cock9), unfortunately passed away this year. it's so nice to see him live on through this clip. it truly was the saltiest ice climber moment
The entire wobbling was legalised due to evo storyline gets repeated so so often that it becomes fact despite it not fully being the case.
Evo didnt allow wobbling due to not understanding the scene or rulesets or whatever, it was because the closest scenes to where Evo was taking place (being the west coast scenes including socal) had wobbling legal, and they coppied there rulesets. At the time more tournaments tended to have wobbling legal compared to illegal too, though it was close to 50/50 at the largest events.
Evo legalising it was what made everywhere legalise it though!
Minor thing though and its something repeated so so often in so many places that I get the missconception. Keep up the hard work!
As an ICs main, banning wobbling was the best thing that happened for my improvement. Having to actually learn combo routes, desyncs, and grounded movement, made me appreciate the game beyond just fishing for grabs
The best player is the one who wins. Not the one with the most "tech skill."
Banning wobbling forces Icies players to do the cool things Icies can do. It was absolutely the right decision. And we're even seeing a few dedicated mains making waves, so I hope in a few years there will be a crop of awesome IC's players winning big tournaments.
@@user-et3xn2jm1u So then ban Fox lasering rofl.
@@snex000 exactly.
Smasher Fly Amanita should be credited with being one of, if not the most influential pioneer of the handoff meta and SoPo tech. The fact that they weren't even mentioned, despite the fact that they were prominent IC player after Evo 2013 precisely because they couldn't wobble to save their life feels like a snub to me. So here I am, commenting on this video to give Fly Amanita their well deserved flowers.
Wobbling is still legal in central texas. Only thing is if you get wobbled you’re allowed to punch the wobbler
as an ices main who started in 2022, i think i wouldn’t like it if wobbling was legal. Handoffs are more fun and an easy technique would’ve kept the skill ceiling for ices low.
on top of that, they are also more interesting to watch too, as there is a lot more variety of stuff that can happen with handoffs
AS an ICs Main who starte in 2008 i think the ICs should not have wobble or chaingrab. But the way they implemented them is garbage. They have so many fails(for example nanas behavior on a Plattform, or nanas behavior after ledge getup when popo is far away), and never got changes to make them better Overall as a Charakter.
And i think this is a pity! I've never seen such a uniqe fighting mechanic, to Controll 2 chars with the same Inputs, in no other game.
IC's got punished too hard for their crimes
yeah anyone who complains about wobbling being banned just wanted a one touch win with literally 0 effort besides spacing
@@lucaspk15 to be fair, at least it isnt like brawl ice climbers, they are much worse
@@AZNEGATIVECHARGEi would feel dirty doing it and on netplay unranked no one would sit there and wait for the wobble to end
ICs are one of my favorite characters to watch now. I also love that Zain is considering picking them up as a secondary
that would be amazing
Wobbling was definitely OP as hell, but the whole “your trash” argument never made sense to me. You could clearly see if a player was carried or not by a technique, like Chu and wobbles were cracked at the game, they just used wobbling in conjunction with the rest of their kit. I definitely think players like Nintendude were hard carried by the technique
To be fair, Wobbles was never really called trash.
I don’t think anyone would. He’s one of the nicest guys out there
Wobbling wasn't OP. You're just bad.
No one said they were trash, but its undeniable that wobbling did carry those players to score wins they otherwise would not have
@@thewhitetophat8965 No one said Fox players are trash, but it's undeniable that waveshining and Hax dashing did carry those players to score wins they otherwise would not have.
Great joke idea at 3:20 with the samus charge shot. Made me laugh.
love the mystical ninja music
WHATS THE NAME OF THE OUTRO @luigit0ilet IVE GOTTA KNOW
So other things that you could have mentioned :
- Some top players like Armada were against the banned of wobbling because he mentioned that it would set up a situation where “if this is banned , then more things are gonna get banned in the future.
- Hbox kind off played it two face where he first mentioned that “Wobbling should be banned” because he was forced “not to approach” or else he risk on losing the stock in one grab. He mentioned this after beating Chudat by timing him out. Then later on he mentioned that “just get good , the character will die without wobbling” lmao….
- Most top players that got pissed by “wobbling” like Plup , M2K , N0ne and an endless list , are pretty much happy , specially M2K who voiced it so many times that wobbling is stupid , broken , and that its an interaction that on his bias opinion , killed the game. An example is when M2K was timing out Wobbles and did not wanna approach just to win the set , and Wobbles replied with “Its okay if you play like this to win but its very hypocritical when you complain about wobbling.”
When either way someone isn't going to have fun you take the option that leads to you winning. I don't blame HB or M2K for making that decision.
@@vyor8837except M2K literally did this all the time, he used to camp so fucking hard. same with HBox planking
The cool thing about 2010s ice climber players is that they can do CPR on two people who fainted
Cool video but you just had to remind me of how cool Slug's gameplay was... Hope he has not quit for good but regardless I am hoping that other ICs can replicate his success, character diversity in Melee is very fun to watch
so the only person who was highlighted as the modern representation isn't even that active? and all the other top IC players stopped travelling and competing seriously?
so the ban did just nerf a character off the top level meta
I wouldnt call removing an exploit a nerf. Like removing the freeze glitch as a "nerf".
If the freeze glitch was legal then yeah banning it would have been a nerf what do you mean?
he literally calls it a NERF in the TITLE of the video
@@GhillieGuide I am hopeful for ICs like MOF and LunarDusk to climb up to the top, Also the reason Slug stopped competing was nothing to do with the nerf and was seemingly entirely due to BTS shutting down. Ironically it seems that he was actually in smash for the money
@@randomthorn9286
I have hope for midlevel players like MOF, Lunar, JJM etc.
If it was about money then wobbling legal would make it easier to stay active
SLuG himself recognized at least part of his results can be attributed to matchup rust from literally all the top ICs quitting
Guy, everyone hates ice climbers, I get asked not to play them in friendlies against PR falcon players. Easily one of the most hated characters regardless of chain grabbing
gaslighting ICs about their character being cool to watch so you can justify nerfing a character out of the metagame
@@GhillieGuideyoure so mad haha
Nice vid mate, love the editing
amazing video!
also you are so unbelievably based for using dialga's fight to the finish as bgm
POG new vid
POG
POG
The historic solo mains winning majors era have had their fun. The ice age is coming
man deserves way more sub, high quality vids keep it up
Tbf it’s kinda funny that icies mains quit the game en masse but it turns out they still have probably the best punishes off grab across the cast
yeah it's funny that the longest active competitor quit melee haha funny
@@GhillieGuidestop crying and get good at handoffs kid
its like the bayo mains in smash 4, the moment the broken shit got nerfed they quit proving thats all they knew how to do
@@GhillieGuide no it’s funny that icies still have the best grab punishes in the game. Afaik AT WORST they get about 50% guaranteed with zero counterplay mixups or complications.
@@Relisocguaranteed? Nana throw is random.
Luigi was nerfed in doubles as it cannot do the infinite ladder stall
ur vids are so good man, keep it up!
if you are a tournament level player in a game and quit over a game breaking strategy being banned rather than actually learning to play the character, you just proved the technique needed to be banned the entire time lmaoo
Slugs handoffs in those few tourneys last year were terrifying
Amazing editing, amazing video as always
Lmao I did not expect to see myself at 11:40. This was a solid video overall, there were definitely a lot of things missing, but getting into all of those details would have gone a bit out of the typical video length of your channel, so I do understand leaving them out.
Also I'm petitioning you to please start putting a music list in the description or one of the outro screens. I generally know most of the stuff you use, but you have some really good choices I often see people asking about in the comments!
This is the next generation of the smash bros documentary. Such well made videos!
Good video, really entertaining. I do want to say however that the popular story of Evo being the tournament that started wobbling being legal it's not entirely true. If you go back to smashboards from around that time you can see that it was still hotly debated before Evo was announced. With the community being close to a 50/50 split, and some tournaments having it legal and some having it banned at the time. It was Evo that signaled the swing towards more acceptance of wobbling, but it wasn't the start of wobbling being legal.
Edit: Also the TN ban was a hoax
Lmao at m2k getting hit by Trif's glasses 😂😂😂 great edit
What are the songs that you always use in your videos?
Can you include a list of music used? I noticed you used some music from gravity rush but I’d like to know what the other tracks are as well
4:18 I’m sorry but what’s the name of the song? I’ve been hearing it through countless videos and I can’t get enough of it.
0:43 Driftveil City lets fucking gooo
wake up honey new chaler video
Hi
wait that's me!!! i'm on TV!
@@SSBMNicki yooo!!!!!
As a pm player at the time, I was ecstatic when they banned wobbling. I knew how cool ic's could be and I wanted that in melee, too
PM ICs literally had most of their moveset buffed; completely different character
@@GhillieGuide They still had their hand offs which was the whole point. Buffed or not they definitely are fundamentally the same character.
Handoffs aren't considered cool by the average player
I play without them on unranked so people don't just quit lmao
I can be playing without it for games and then the moment I go for handoffs they quit
many(~50%) just instaquit when they see the character
@@GhillieGuide You're basing the average player off of netplay where the salt immediately increases by 200%. That's not representative of the average viewer watching a tournament, most of which think hand offs are really cool to watch. It's not representative of local play either.
@@Jarekthegamingdragon are you basing that off your own personal views on handoffs?
Even the most popular videos from SLuG are FILLED with ICs haters in the comments
As a ics main I have realized that ics is the character people want to watch not fight
Was taking a shit in a public bathroom when i got to 10:43 and started howling... apologies to anyone who may have been impacted by this
10:51 wow the dude made ice climbers not annoying in melee
Bro, fly amanita was the guy who really first used handoffs successfully. It's criminal not to mention him.
Excuse me, does anyone know the name of the music that plays at 10:48? I can recognize it's Pokémon Sword and Shield but I can't find the name :(
It's hilarious how differently players react to losing against wobbling versus losing against handoffs
I am a frim believer that if wobbling where to have stayed banned, we would be seeing more ice climber players right now. The stigma alone of the wobbling appearance with the Iceies, I think, was enough to keep players from approaching the character. I'm super stoked to see the return of the character!
The stigma was way more of a factor from the ICs I talked to in quitting; that their wins had never been legit though hard fought on an obviously worse character
how everyone banded together in a populist movement to ban wobbling without even considering the minority; public debates being held with almost no IC reps
@@GhillieGuideuhh, Wobbles himself wanted it banned.
@@vyor8837 wobbles was publicly anti-ban for literally his entire career; the only record of him being proban was that one anecdotal story from m2k which I suspect he was referring to wobbling with no % limit(the ruleset at the tourney m2k was describing)
he literally was one of the most vocal against a ban for nearly a decade before he quit; you can't find a single quote from him saying it should be banned.
@@GhillieGuide what? No he wasn't, he constantly spoke against it being legal.
@@vyor8837 no he literally wrote paragraphs and paragraphs against the ban you can't produce a single quote from him saying it should be banned
Great video !
How is the editing so good LOL
chaler carrying the melee content
Nice video. What's the song at 5:24?
Also that dthrow usmash at 10:05 wasn't a tech error Shroomed actually di'd it away which makes it not true if the marth di's away
Hey Chaler, whats your ending theme song?
0:35 what’s the song that plays here?
man looks like if Dave Landau was a gamer
Also the first Tennessee ban wasn’t even real. It was just some dude that posted it and the community took on mob mentality
So glad they made wobbling illegal. Remember when 16 of the top 20 were IC mains who were just trying to outwobble each other? Dark times indeed.
lol, when was this i want to watch the footage
@Hawko1313 dude just look up "melee finals" and every match will be IC dittos trying to wobble.
Handoffs do look infinitely cooler than wobbling, NGL.
you say this as if the mfs dont still handoff grab spam me and play slow / bait the entire game and get 80% off one grab then throw me into ice and head me off the ledge with 0 opportunity to get out of it.
its still awful to play against.
Community: If you are ever wobbled, you have the right to yell at the player in the ears, make distracting movements while standing in front of the TV, and have the crowd immediately stomp both their feet repeatedly on the floor until the ground shakes in such an abnormal pace to throw off the IC player. If that's not enough, have a jet engine fan blow on their face as someone cracks open a smellingsalt while someone shines a laser pointer at their eye.
MikeHaze actually infamously did this in Brawl, and they had to make a rule against it
@2:25
th-cam.com/video/ik2G9i2OHzY/w-d-xo.html#t=2m20s
Does anyone know the remix used at 5:20? I’d love to know because it sounds awesome…
Wobbling is coming back as Nobbling, as more ICs that can do it like MOF and ENFP travel more, and as more ICs learn it, it's over
I find it insane how wobbling is banned but anybody can mod their controller and do stuff vanilla controllers cant as much.
Anything to keep Sheik down
For the stuff about how Melee's character metagame relies on a "rich-get-richer" approach (with trickle-down character development happening as much as it does wealth), I've always thought low-tier characters become a gold mine with how people ignore them and therefore have no idea how to play against them.
it's an absolute shame that you didn't mention fly amanita at all in this video. he was a huge innovator and popularizer for ICs' non-wobbling punish game, during the time that was wobbling was not banned.
also the tone of this video is dripping with disdain for ice climbers, which isn't necessarily surprising, but is disappointing.
@@oceanseltzerthe end all but confirms it
As a spectator I loved wobbling
background song at 0:40 please. I can't remember. ty
icies mains explaining why the easiest combo and infinite in the history of the franchise that can be guaranteed off of one grab and guarantees a kill at all percents is fair, balanced, and fun to watch as a spectator (it isn't): "Well, uh, he NEEDS it, because if he didn't, he needs TWO grabs to kill you!!!!! 😭😢😢😿😭"
Wobbling was banned years ago and still lives in your head rent-free
@@GhillieGuide my brother in christ the video we are in the comment section of is focused on wobbling
@@GhillieGuide L
Fair and balanced? in melee? that has never been a reason to nerf or ban strategies from characters more powerful than IC's in the past. It's just unfun and repetitive to watch. It's a double standard, but we accept it because it's not a high execution space furry.
@@Hawko1313 it's a reason that stages with camping circles were banned
it's the reason freeze glitch and literally everything other than wobbling was banned
it's the reason UCF was implemented
IC's leaving because wobbling became illegal is the pinnacle of patheticness IMO. respect to those who kept playing, as well as Slug and MOF for inventing new stuff. Ice Climbers are a fun character after all, I think.
what did SLuG and MOF invent?
@@GhillieGuide slug has a youtube channel! www.youtube.com/@slugssbm2562/videos
what anime was that where he was dead
even tho it’s hard for you to do how hard is it for someone to break out of it? things like this should still be limited bcz it just looks so cheesy.
Wobbling is lame as hell, but hand-offs are one of the most interesting things to see performed well
What a turnaround
Why is OP slow dancing with the mic stand?
this is the effect talking about Wobbling has on spacie mains who were active during the time it was active
quickly becoming one of the best ssbm channels on youtube. accessible to newcomers yet goes deep enough for more experienced viewers!
You should’ve shown the handoff zone on PS2 asw, it’s kinda wacky iirc
not true, a recent ruling states that all falco players must be circumcised. This is what caused fictions upset loss to polo, he was still recovering from his circumcision and wasn't playing at %100
i like what icy
9:03 unfortunate for those players who truly only knew wobbling for success. But also, fundies bro. Ice Climbers are incredible in Melee, get gud
I've caused over 50,000+ KOs with Samus on 0.5 damage Ratio. That's 100,000 KOs for all you 1.0 Rookies (no offense) and over 12,000,000 damage. I can safely say she is one of the best characters in the game. The characters. I would say she is in the top 5 best Characters in the game. Her combo potentual is apsolutely amazing. And she is the trickiest and most mind confusing opponent because of her morph ball bombs. And of course she can basically fire off Smash Attack projectiles.
never brought up the goat fly amanita :
Honestly I only realised like 80% through the edit and I greatly regret it
If anyone wants to see a dope icies they should definitely look at some old fly clips.
@@ChalerYT all good dude it happens. Was a great video still. Keep up the good content man :>
What was weird is that Fly wasn’t actually against wobbling at all. He was just so bad at wobbling that he started using handoffs and became one of the best ICs in the world.
Song at 7:40 ?
Then there's PAL
ice grapplers
Haven't seen nintendude in top 8 in a while. I wonder whyyy
I'm really glad Wobbling was banned. IC's are a really cool character imo and having such an over centralizing exploit really held back the sick potential the character had.
before wobbling ban ICs were the most boring character you could see on a given melee stream. Wait for opponent to mess up somehow, get a grab, press A 400 times, take the stock, repeat.
Now with the ban of wobbling, seeing a sick ICs player is actually hype af because they actually have to work for their (still devastating) punish game instead of, yknow, pressing A a bunch of times.
Absolutely mental that anyone would defend wobbling. Easily the most toxic thing in melee's competitive history and its infinitely easy
Wobbling is just such a giant stain in a great community's history. It's insulting
Nice
Lmao acting like the second wobbling ban was because of Evo and not because Plup and Axe cried about it until it got banned
The game has had several patches.
song at 10:48?
Someone said its from swsh
dont forget the turtle he was nerfed too
how inconsiderate
i see u using marnies theme.
Took like 4 minutes at the start of the video talking about metas before you got to the main subject of the video, most people clicking on a video about this game already know about the early meta and axe and amsa so you could do with shortening that section to only include absolutely necessary information to make the whole video more concise
Honestly, Samus is probably top 7. Like you said, its just that no one cracked is playing the character.
She needs an "aMSa" or an "Axe" that's just constantly pushing the meta of the character. That used to be Hugs, but no one has really came in to take up the mantle since then.
This is a self-fulfilling thought.
You say Samus just doesn't have someone pushing the meta. The more likely reality is people are pushing the meta, she's just still bad.
Definitely not top 7, MAYBE top 10. I mean, I don’t think anyone would put her above Fox, Marth, Sheik, or Falco and still could never push falcon, puff, or peach back a spot. I’d go as far as to say Yoshi is solidly better than Samus, and even ICs and Pikachu have a pretty strong case against her.
Also, to say HugS was the only one to carry the torch? 🤯 Like Plup wasn’t certifiable best Samus for years? And like Duck wasn’t hovering around top 20 for a while? Both were a fair bit better than Hugs when they hit their stride
In a game as mechanically deep and passionately played as melee, it's odd wobbling was legal for so long. As a spectator I'm glad it's banned, an easy infinite off a grab just isn't fun for the opponent or the viewer. Heck even for the IC players, look at how deadpan their faces are when they wobble, they know it's bs
TL;DR Changing the rules even when logical can hurt a tournament and none of the TOs wanted to take that risk. It took someone lying about banning and EVO dropping Melee for it to get banned again.
The problem is Melee doesn't have a centralized governing body really. There are some TOs and tournaments that are more influential than others and pretty much the community ends up adopting rules that fit in with the status quo. When EVO legalized wobbling, that pretty much set things in motion for a long time. This is because tournaments mostly operate at a loss or barely scrape by financially. And tournaments rely on top player attendance. Basically every major tournament series has a reputation in the community over the years. If you are the TO of a major tournament, the last thing you want is to be an outlier with some different rules (even if they make sense) because you risk top players not wanting to come and therefore damaging your rep. It might seem like a slam dunk to ban wobbling and that top players would still come. But keep in mind top players like consistency between tournament rulesets and a lot of majors are like stepping stones or practice for bigger tournaments. So no TO for those 6 years wanted to be THAT TO and risk having a bad year for their tournament series, which would ultimately damage the reputation of it forever. And there was no centralized planning of the rules that could fix this problem. So it essentially went unaddressed until EVO dropped Melee and then the community got duped into thinking a Tennessee TO banned wobbling, which emboldened a bunch of TOs to ban it. Like I said, it's all about not wanting to be the first one to do anything. That TO lied about banning it on Reddit and then it started a movement of various locals/regionals banning it until eventually majors started doing it too.
Crazy such a silly exploit needed all that to finally get put down XD can't say its the worst thing i've seen tho. Brawl never banned meta knight, smash 4 let bayo run rampant, and what should've been an easy decision to ban steve in ultimate was met with a surprising amount of divisiveness, whole ass characters just bad for the game, can't say IC's in melee ever got to that point thankfully
I do not like wobbling but I want there to be more good characters so I kinda want them to allow wobbling for 1 stock. Or possibly 2 but the second wobble is only allowed if you are currently down 2 stocks. But the problem with that is we dont get to see as many hand off combos which are awesome.
This is horrible lmao
how about IC mains get good at handoffs instead of relying on a braindead strat
The problem with wobbling is not that it's easy to perform and boring to watch, it's that there is no options to get out on the receiver's side. The ICs can kill you from any percent from one opening, WITH THE OTHER PLAYER HAVING NO COUNTERPLAY OPTIONS WHATSOEVER. The no counterplay options part is what makes it bannable. That being said, when you look at "flashy and cool" handoffs, you can ask yourself "what could the opponent have done to get out or give the ICs a mixup or a harder time?" and the answer is the same as wobbling, nothing. They both make the game a one player game for an extended amount of time (with one looking cooler and being harder to execute). And the argument "but you can't do it anywhere on stage" doesn't work in my opinion, because stages with walls could be legal with the same argument, that Fox can't shine infinite you anywhere on stage...
it was banned years ago and it still lives in your head rent-free
the counter play is to not get grabbed
@@atreides4911 Same goes for wobbling. And the counterplay to Fox shine infinite against a wall is to not get shined.
@@zachariemelanson485 yeah
I will say tho wobbling ban is better for the health of the metagame you are right. But I also think boxes are good for the health of the metagame :)
I genuinely didn't know throwng and rethrowning was aloud (I also didn't know it was called handoffs)
I thought anything regrab related to Ice Climbers was banned. Because of that I completely dropped the character.
I really enjoyed throwing and trying to do fun stuff with regrabs.
Welp, I guess I'll play with em again.
Here before 1k club!