Hi Steve I should have made my point clearer there. I was referring to “ jamming”. This is where there is no gap between the rifling and projectile and it already has contact with the lands when chambered. I have done this myself and you can actually get great accuracy however it’s not good practice for reliability. IT Will Increase Pressure And Is Potentially Dangerous. I experienced a projectile being pulled when I ejected a live round after not taking a shot. There was more to this situation- worn brass with poor neck tension ( yes no annealing back then). And I believe for some reason the shoulder bump setting on my die may have been incorrect as you should be able to “just touch” the rifling without this happening. Sounds silly but as I said hard lessons. My point is unfortunately thing’s do happen and is when accuracy and reliability can be achieved without doing this there’s no point in risking something going wrong on a hunting trip where it’s most likely going to be hard to fix. Seating to the lands is fine but it shouldn’t be “jamming “ as such. Just be aware when you are seating to “ just touch” the lands to cycle your rounds before going on a trip to ensure nothing has changed. Cheers mate 👍
I've gone down so many roads with handloading the last 35 years and I'm still learning new tricks from time to time but not too much new stuff comes my way these days. I change up my process slightly from time to time but as of now my current process is as follows and this is STARTING development in a new rifle or STARTING a new load in an existing rifle. Unfortunately I always strive for a one hole group even though 1 MOA will achieve what I need to get done for hunting purposes. I just like small groups and that has become much easier to achieve over time and experience and thousands of dollars and thousands of rounds New load, new brass, case is once fired after range time that day 1. RECHAMBER FIRED CASE. if easily rechambers, continue...will explain towards the end... 2. universal decapping die, decap primers. This die should NOT touch any part of the case other than the knocking the primer out 3. anneal (very important to do this either in second or third step) 4. clean inside/outside neck. Annealing creates a texture inside the neck that needs to be relieved. I use a nylon brush on the inside, steel wool outside. Some experts tumble and I do sometimes 5. neck size only in a bushing die to where OD is .004 to .005 less than loaded round 6. open neck on a turning mandrel. This opens it up to 0.002 less than a loaded round 7. Trim length 8. RECHAMBER THE BRASS. Should be just as easy as the first time 9. Measure case headspace and log the data in load book 10. This case is ready to be primed and loaded again Neck sizing v full length. I do both. I only FL size when the case tells me I need to and I sort the brass accordingly. I've gone away from working the brass frequently which occurs with always FL sizing. Mostly because I load hot, as hot as the rifle will allow and as long as the load is accurate. Hotter loads reduce brass life (namely the primer pocket). Here's the catch - If you FL size every time, which is absolutely fine as we all know, most reloaders will measure the headspace on a batch of fired cases, take the shortest one, and set the die up on that case to bump one to three thousandths back on the shoulder. Lets say you have a spread of 3 thousandths headspace among that batch. Lets say none of those fired cases were ever rechambered to begin with to see if they would easily fit. So you take that shortest case, set up your die and bump it back 2 thousandths. But what if it was already cleared in the chamber by three thousandths with spring back? Now you've sized it such that you have 5 thousandths clearance. Now the case is being over worked and you increase risk of case head separation if you continue down that road. I'm way too lazy to adjust a sizing die for each few cases that happen to measure the same headspace in a batch when you may have 50 to do and the variable is a few thousandths if you are trying to achieve a 1 to 2 thousandths bump per case. Now, what if those longer cases in that batch also rechambered easily after being fired? And as another example, what if they had 2 or 3 thousandths clearance still even after being once fired? That shorter case you used to set up the die bumped it even further. I think, from what I've read, heard, and seen, many reloaders don't take this stuff into account and assume that all fired cases are at the rifle chamber dimension and in MOST instances for me, not even close. Don't forget, I'm not talking about cases with multiple firings on them. If you take one of those longer cases and it rechambers easily, think about that. If it did not rechamber easily and you FL size it, you could be just returning it to a dimension of a fired case that did easily rechamber already. All you do is measure. Thus, I neck size only for hunting ammo until I need to FL size and this has served me well. I'd say in the last decade, I've only had to FL size a once fired case 2-3 percent of the time at best per batch of 50 to 100. And that is with the cheaper brass like Winchester or Federal or Fiocchi. Not so with ADG, Lapua, Norma. I often get 2-4 firings on a case before it starts to get stiff during a test rechambering. By the time I get to the 5th loading I do find the primer pockets are pretty worked over in maybe 10-20% of the batch and they get pitched. This is on the cheaper brass and because I try to load hot. Don't care. I'm comfortable with fewer loadings per case knowing the time I saved not having to lube a case to FL size it and go through the processes of wiping them off and or cleaning them. Even then, youtubers like The Real Gunsmith, Randy Selby, advise that once you reload a case there should be very subtle resistance (very slight) when closing the bolt That's my long winded process and rationale I'm currently doing and have for a bit. I used to FL size everything every time and have found, for ME, just not necessary and very glad I realized it. I've hunted in multiple states and Canadian provinces for elk, black bear, whitetail, Coues deer, desert and mountain mule deer, Pronghorn. I've never once had an occurrence where ammo wouldn't chamber, hunting in desert dust and Maine rain to downpours in Alabama. Just has never been an issue. Can't remember how long ago but I did see a guy from NZ or Australia post a video where he does the same thing, he neck sizes and FL sizes and sorts brass accordingly stating he will neck size until the rifle chamber tells him it's time to FL.
I use a decapping die to knock the primer out, then bump the shoulder using a FL die with the decapping stem removed, then set the neck tension using a expander mandrel that’s 2thou under bullet diameter, bit more work but produces accurate ammo, the Redding FL type S bushing dies are good too, having access to an AMP Annealing machine is great for extending brass life and helping with consistent neck tension as well.
Great video, thank you for that😉. At 70, I came to centrefire late in life (4 years ago) as I hunted with black powder. I didn't find factory ammo that good (well the one's I was buying at that time). So I started handloading. I measure the neck length of my chamber every 100 rounds and trim to a few thou off it. I also measure the Ojive of the bullet so I can keep an eye on the bullet jump and adjust as required. I use a GENERAL decapper (never the one's on FL or Neck Die). I neck size and adjust the neck tension by changing the mandrel diametre (I don't crimp the bullet). I full length size every third reload to reset the neck seating, then anneal the case. I reload in batches of fifty, chronograph three to check the velocity and adjust my drop chart because I don't use an app in the field as batteries can go flat. I'm only shooting a .243 Win and only at a max of 500Yds.
Excellent tips. You could also ease the neck diameter of an existing FL size die, if one has the skills. This is a cheaper alternative to save a few dollars.
Good stuff. I really enjoy your channel, nice and low key without a heap of hype. I went through a similar change of system from traditional full length dies with an expander bulb etc to a new process but slightly different to yours. I use a full length Redding bushing die to bump the shoulder a tiny tad then use a 21st Century expander mandrel to get ideal neck tension and concentricity. The improvement in accuracy was astonishing. My .222 went from well over a minute to half a minute with this change of process. Little bit of work working out what size bushing and expander mandril is ideal but it's all fun. I haven't tried the Lee collet system but I hear it works, plus the Lee stuff is cost effective. Wish I had a chronograph, working in the dark a little without one.
Yeah I’ve also noticed that my velocity got more consistent too which I presume was from consistent neck tension. Went from low teens to 6 fps. Thanks mate 👍
MM77 Approved 👍🏻 👍🏻………………………………………Thanks for the tutorial ! I do need to get a chronograph, I reload pistol cartridges just for practice in my back yard shooting range. I’ve recently got some rifle dies and want to get into loading .223 & .308. You just gave me the push I needed to get a chronograph!! LOL
Thanks for the info. I have classic lee reloaders for my 308 and 270. On a good day i am achieving inch size groups. Which is fine for the hunting and shooting i do. You may well know the classic lee reloader. You basically smash the bullet together over steps with a wooden mullet. I have picked up a few tricks to keep the loads consistant with the classic reloader. I put loc tight on a certain tread on the die. To stop the sitting depth shifting when you are seating the projectile. I also make a dummy round with no powder or primer at the seating depth i want. Then i am able to set the seating depth for the follow live rounds i load. Once my mate sets up his hornday loading set i'll be able use that. And hopefully apply some of your tips and refine my loads further.
bloody awesome im bout to do the reload thing more so to have more uniform bullet speed and hope tightin group up alittle for longer range hunting. i understood all you said you said it in a way that was easy to grasp and thankyou i look forward to watching more and picking up on poss often overlooked things in reloading many thanks
Great vids and I watch all of em eh. A1. Just got one thing to say about "no lube required". Strongly advise you use dry lube on the inside of neck (so you can leave it in). You get that in a little tub filled with plastic beads. You can also use cheap graphite to replentish it when it runs out. Use imperial wax on the outside. I use that or hornady wax. Either or. Keeps the brass shiney even once you've cleaned it off. Spray on lubes don't work in my opinion. Not when compared to wax. If you don't lube both inside and out you will one day jam a round in your die and have to somehow get that to a gunsmith. Not worth it. Also, take a look at the type S redding die. I think you can do exactly what you're doing in one go. It's just a full length die with collets you can change to set neck tension. Back to the praise! Your vids are the best hunting vids hands down.
Hey mate thanks. Yes there are a few ways of getting the same result. As for the no lube- to be clear, it is just the 1 step that it’s not required. For the body sizing etc you Definitely need lube just as you’ve said. The Lee collet die doesn’t touch the inside of the neck and only sizes down- this is why it’s possible for that step only. But yes I tend to agree, it’s very important to have a good process and apply it consistently to ensure the brass stays consistent while being worked. Cheers mate 👍👍
Nothing wrong with using Lee dies , you can load some accurate stuff on them , I am moving to using one die to do both , body sizing & neck sizing , its a Redding Type S Full Bushing die , you will need to measure to order correct dia for your brass . My main 308 Win load is 175 SMK , Lapua brass , CCI primer & 45gr of ADI 2208 , but as always , this is safe in my Rifle , start a little lower with your own rifle . 3 main things for accuracy , are good bullets ,brass & barrels .
Good video mate. Nice and consise. To many videos take 30 minutes to cover what you did in 12. I have started doing this method earlier this year after visiting top shooters in the US. The combo of the Lee collet and the body die works really well. A good point about powder charge for velocity consistency then tuning the seating depth for accuracy. Have found that most velocity nodes are between 6 and 9 thou so I move out in 3 thou increments which usually gives me the start, middle and end of the node. As long as the rifles are up to the task this is a never fail method. Well done.
Hi there really in joying your content. I have a Tikka 300wsm and getting good results with imr4350 and 178gn eldx. Wondering what load you are using? Cheers Chris.
Certainly can mate. To be honest it’s a lot less than what you might think. Understanding the process really saves you a lot of money. Plenty of unnecessary money traps. Trust me 😂 thanks 👍
Genius! Mate thats the best explanation ive heard yet and ive dived deep down this reloading rabbit hole before purchasing gear. One question, can i use a Lee Collet doe followed by a lee full length with the expander removed? Will that "bump the shoulder and size the case?
I would use the full length die first, followed by the Lee neck sizing die with the correct size of diameter mandrel, which will then it will set the correct neck tension on the bullet, meaning I don't have to bullet crimp! I like to de cap with a general decapper first, as this puts less presure on the full length resizing die.
Hi Tom this is really good info for some of us less capable reloaders. I have been having trouble getting consistent shoulder bump with my cheap Lee press, RCBS die combo. Would you recommend a better press, what's your lube process and would a 2 die system help.
I would try these two die’s before buying a new press as its the cheaper choice and you’ll use them anyway. I use Hornady one shot lube and it works fine. It takes a bit to wear out a press depending on the use. So hopefully that will help. Cheers
I use a Hornady ELD~M 168gr at a COAL of 2.85” with 44.5gr of AR2208. This is a hot load for some rifles so be careful to start lower. 1/11” twist. There’s definitely more pressure in a 1/10” etc. cheers 👍
@controlledrecoil-nzhunting thanks , do you think the eld-m is better than eld-x Also I'm only learning, but with a faster twist like 1 in 7 would you use less powder? Also what is the load details for your subsonic 308 Also it makes sense with what you were saying about normal dies stretching the brass so much . Thanks so much , I love your videos
Yes you’ll definitely want to start with a lower powder charge and work up in safe increments. Stick to the reloading manual specs. Be aware that a 1/7” twist may be too fast for a ELD-M as there is potential to have jacket/ core separation depending on velocity. Be careful of this. However the 1/7” twist will be perfect for the subsonic rounds. The ELD-m has the edge if you’re shooting long range but the ELD-X will be better for normal hunting ranges . If you’re shooting up close it may be worth trying some type of bonded bullet depending on what you’re hunting.
Hi Jason, This data is for subsonic rounds only. Thanks for your support of the channel, it’s much appreciated. Reloading can be dangerous. I can’t take responsibility for how you use this information. Please Be aware of the dangers and to approach these loads with caution. This data has been obtained and tested in my rifles but every rifle is different. Be cautious. I recommend reading a credible reloading manual before you attempt any reloading activities. Your safety ( and others) is the main priority. With subsonic rounds I start several grains higher and work down ( opposite to high powered rounds). Make sure every round has cleared the barrel and make sure they are stable before using a suppressor to avoid the risk of baffle strike. Be cautious of misfires as they maybe hang-fires (going off seconds after). If a misfire occurs always wait at least 30sec before unloading and keep the rifle in a safe direction. I’ve had hang-fires go off 6 seconds late ( this was with factory ammunition) so best to play it safe. The thing that makes subsonic rounds difficult in a 308 sized case (or larger) Is the lack of volume taken up by the reduced powder charge. This is why low pressure, bulky powder is used. The aim is to have around 80% of the case full so reliable ignition is achieved along with a predictable pressure curve. Obviously this depends on powder type also. You can use a case filler as an option but it usually burns pretty dirty. (This is why specialty subsonic cartridges like the 300 blackout is designed with low capacity and heavy projectiles.) A combination of larger projectile weights and lower charges is the balance to get right. The bit that complicates that is stabilising the larger projectiles at these slow speeds. A fast twist barrel is a really big help here. I wouldn’t recommend anything slower than 1/11” twist in the 308 platform. I crimp my subsonic rounds to help with the neck tension as I’ve found it reduces velocity variations. So I seat to the Cannelure on the subX 190gn. I shoot a thick cardboard box at 50yards to test stability - without suppressor first. Look for nice round holes on both sides to insure it isn’t going sideways, or has significant yaw. Remember Trail Boss is incredibly light for its size so I highly recommend not using electric scales, unless they are very sensitive ones, and go with the good old manual balance types if possible as some electric scales struggle to pick up the very small increments it seems, depending on the unit. Velocity spread is the main battle with subs , so make sure everything is very consistent. Every inconsistency is exaggerated because of the low velocity. If you get this right you can shoot a surprising distance- 160yard with shoulder shots, using the SubX projectile. If the velocity spread is higher than 25fps you will quickly see vertical stringing at distance. My data is as follows: All data from Bolt Action Rifles: 308 Winchester. 190gr Hornady SubX Powder- Trail Boss. Sako brass Standard rifle primer- Winchester WLR For 16” barrel 1/11” twist: 10.5gn 1055 fps For 18.5” Barrel 1/10” twist: 10.5gn 1040 fps For 24” Barrel 1/10” twist: 9.8gn 1035-1045 fps. NOTE: Magnum primer on this load. Winchester WLRM. This should give a good idea out of most platforms. Remember any change of any component’s Could lead to a very different result. The sound barrier changes slightly with air density so I recommend having 20 FPS gap as a minimum to insure its subsonic in all conditions. If you live in very cold climates I’d recommend 1030-1040fps rather than 1050fps etc. Please check rounds are clearing the barrel when testing. They can get stuck if the load is too low. I’m currently working on alternative options for powder as Trail Boss is almost impossible to get now. I’ll let you know when I have some reliable data. This all sounds complicated but once you find a load that is safe and reliable in your rifle, you’re good to go. A 45/70govt is a surprisingly good large calibre to use subsonic rounds from, not relative to this information but a good platform to try if you have one. Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions if anything doesn’t make sense. Thanks for the support. Cheers, Tom.
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Thanks for these tips. Question, you said you don’t recommend seating to the lands, is that because of increased pressure into the rifling?
Hi Steve I should have made my point clearer there. I was referring to “ jamming”. This is where there is no gap between the rifling and projectile and it already has contact with the lands when chambered. I have done this myself and you can actually get great accuracy however it’s not good practice for reliability.
IT Will Increase Pressure And Is Potentially Dangerous.
I experienced a projectile being pulled when I ejected a live round after not taking a shot. There was more to this situation- worn brass with poor neck tension ( yes no annealing back then). And I believe for some reason the shoulder bump setting on my die may have been incorrect as you should be able to “just touch” the rifling without this happening. Sounds silly but as I said hard lessons. My point is unfortunately thing’s do happen and is when accuracy and reliability can be achieved without doing this there’s no point in risking something going wrong on a hunting trip where it’s most likely going to be hard to fix.
Seating to the lands is fine but it shouldn’t be “jamming “ as such. Just be aware when you are seating to “ just touch” the lands to cycle your rounds before going on a trip to ensure nothing has changed. Cheers mate 👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting Good advice, Thanks heaps.
I've gone down so many roads with handloading the last 35 years and I'm still learning new tricks from time to time but not too much new stuff comes my way these days. I change up my process slightly from time to time but as of now my current process is as follows and this is STARTING development in a new rifle or STARTING a new load in an existing rifle. Unfortunately I always strive for a one hole group even though 1 MOA will achieve what I need to get done for hunting purposes. I just like small groups and that has become much easier to achieve over time and experience and thousands of dollars and thousands of rounds
New load, new brass, case is once fired after range time that day
1. RECHAMBER FIRED CASE. if easily rechambers, continue...will explain towards the end...
2. universal decapping die, decap primers. This die should NOT touch any part of the case other than the knocking the primer out
3. anneal (very important to do this either in second or third step)
4. clean inside/outside neck. Annealing creates a texture inside the neck that needs to be relieved. I use a nylon brush on the inside, steel wool outside. Some experts tumble and I do sometimes
5. neck size only in a bushing die to where OD is .004 to .005 less than loaded round
6. open neck on a turning mandrel. This opens it up to 0.002 less than a loaded round
7. Trim length
8. RECHAMBER THE BRASS. Should be just as easy as the first time
9. Measure case headspace and log the data in load book
10. This case is ready to be primed and loaded again
Neck sizing v full length. I do both. I only FL size when the case tells me I need to and I sort the brass accordingly. I've gone away from working the brass frequently which occurs with always FL sizing. Mostly because I load hot, as hot as the rifle will allow and as long as the load is accurate. Hotter loads reduce brass life (namely the primer pocket). Here's the catch -
If you FL size every time, which is absolutely fine as we all know, most reloaders will measure the headspace on a batch of fired cases, take the shortest one, and set the die up on that case to bump one to three thousandths back on the shoulder. Lets say you have a spread of 3 thousandths headspace among that batch. Lets say none of those fired cases were ever rechambered to begin with to see if they would easily fit. So you take that shortest case, set up your die and bump it back 2 thousandths. But what if it was already cleared in the chamber by three thousandths with spring back? Now you've sized it such that you have 5 thousandths clearance. Now the case is being over worked and you increase risk of case head separation if you continue down that road. I'm way too lazy to adjust a sizing die for each few cases that happen to measure the same headspace in a batch when you may have 50 to do and the variable is a few thousandths if you are trying to achieve a 1 to 2 thousandths bump per case.
Now, what if those longer cases in that batch also rechambered easily after being fired? And as another example, what if they had 2 or 3 thousandths clearance still even after being once fired? That shorter case you used to set up the die bumped it even further. I think, from what I've read, heard, and seen, many reloaders don't take this stuff into account and assume that all fired cases are at the rifle chamber dimension and in MOST instances for me, not even close. Don't forget, I'm not talking about cases with multiple firings on them. If you take one of those longer cases and it rechambers easily, think about that. If it did not rechamber easily and you FL size it, you could be just returning it to a dimension of a fired case that did easily rechamber already. All you do is measure.
Thus, I neck size only for hunting ammo until I need to FL size and this has served me well. I'd say in the last decade, I've only had to FL size a once fired case 2-3 percent of the time at best per batch of 50 to 100. And that is with the cheaper brass like Winchester or Federal or Fiocchi. Not so with ADG, Lapua, Norma. I often get 2-4 firings on a case before it starts to get stiff during a test rechambering. By the time I get to the 5th loading I do find the primer pockets are pretty worked over in maybe 10-20% of the batch and they get pitched. This is on the cheaper brass and because I try to load hot. Don't care. I'm comfortable with fewer loadings per case knowing the time I saved not having to lube a case to FL size it and go through the processes of wiping them off and or cleaning them. Even then, youtubers like The Real Gunsmith, Randy Selby, advise that once you reload a case there should be very subtle resistance (very slight) when closing the bolt
That's my long winded process and rationale I'm currently doing and have for a bit. I used to FL size everything every time and have found, for ME, just not necessary and very glad I realized it. I've hunted in multiple states and Canadian provinces for elk, black bear, whitetail, Coues deer, desert and mountain mule deer, Pronghorn. I've never once had an occurrence where ammo wouldn't chamber, hunting in desert dust and Maine rain to downpours in Alabama. Just has never been an issue. Can't remember how long ago but I did see a guy from NZ or Australia post a video where he does the same thing, he neck sizes and FL sizes and sorts brass accordingly stating he will neck size until the rifle chamber tells him it's time to FL.
I use a decapping die to knock the primer out, then bump the shoulder using a FL die with the decapping stem removed, then set the neck tension using a expander mandrel that’s 2thou under bullet diameter, bit more work but produces accurate ammo, the Redding FL type S bushing dies are good too, having access to an AMP Annealing machine is great for extending brass life and helping with consistent neck tension as well.
Thanks Tony. That’s something I didn’t talk about- annealing. Good point as I missed that but then again I was only going off the cuff 😁 cheers mate 👍
Great video, thank you for that😉.
At 70, I came to centrefire late in life (4 years ago) as I hunted with black powder.
I didn't find factory ammo that good (well the one's I was buying at that time).
So I started handloading.
I measure the neck length of my chamber every 100 rounds and trim to a few thou off it.
I also measure the Ojive of the bullet so I can keep an eye on the bullet jump and adjust as required.
I use a GENERAL decapper (never the one's on FL or Neck Die).
I neck size and adjust the neck tension by changing the mandrel diametre (I don't crimp the bullet).
I full length size every third reload to reset the neck seating, then anneal the case.
I reload in batches of fifty, chronograph three to check the velocity and adjust
my drop chart because I don't use an app in the field as batteries can go flat.
I'm only shooting a .243 Win and only at a max of 500Yds.
Cheers mate, thanks for watching and the information 😁👍
Excellent tips. You could also ease the neck diameter of an existing FL size die, if one has the skills. This is a cheaper alternative to save a few dollars.
Good point Barry, cheers 👍👍
You legend, great advice and its given me some serious things to work on to improve my reloading.
Cheers mate, hope it helps 👍👍
Good stuff. I really enjoy your channel, nice and low key without a heap of hype. I went through a similar change of system from traditional full length dies with an expander bulb etc to a new process but slightly different to yours. I use a full length Redding bushing die to bump the shoulder a tiny tad then use a 21st Century expander mandrel to get ideal neck tension and concentricity. The improvement in accuracy was astonishing. My .222 went from well over a minute to half a minute with this change of process. Little bit of work working out what size bushing and expander mandril is ideal but it's all fun. I haven't tried the Lee collet system but I hear it works, plus the Lee stuff is cost effective. Wish I had a chronograph, working in the dark a little without one.
Yeah I’ve also noticed that my velocity got more consistent too which I presume was from consistent neck tension. Went from low teens to 6 fps. Thanks mate 👍
MM77 Approved 👍🏻 👍🏻………………………………………Thanks for the tutorial ! I do need to get a chronograph, I reload pistol cartridges just for practice in my back yard shooting range. I’ve recently got some rifle dies and want to get into loading .223 & .308. You just gave me the push I needed to get a chronograph!! LOL
You definitely won’t regret it my friend. Opens up a whole new world and definitely saves time guessing. Cheers mate 👍
Thanks for the info.
I have classic lee reloaders for my 308 and 270.
On a good day i am achieving inch size groups. Which is fine for the hunting and shooting i do.
You may well know the classic lee reloader. You basically smash the bullet together over steps with a wooden mullet.
I have picked up a few tricks to keep the loads consistant with the classic reloader.
I put loc tight on a certain tread on the die. To stop the sitting depth shifting when you are seating the projectile.
I also make a dummy round with no powder or primer at the seating depth i want. Then i am able to set the seating depth for the follow live rounds i load.
Once my mate sets up his hornday loading set i'll be able use that. And hopefully apply some of your tips and refine my loads further.
Cheers mate. Yeah I often make a dummy round if I’m changing gear a lot. Awesome good luck 👍👍
*Controlled Recoil - NZ Hunting* Great tips, thank-you sir for taking the time to bring us along. GOD Bless.
Thanks so much mate 👍👍
Nice work. Just covered everything in 1 vid that has taken a year of youtube surfing for me to find out LOL
Ha I know how you feel 😂. Well I figured someone had to do it lol. Cheers mate 👍
bloody awesome im bout to do the reload thing more so to have more uniform bullet speed and hope tightin group up alittle for longer range hunting. i understood all you said you said it in a way that was easy to grasp and thankyou i look forward to watching more and picking up on poss often overlooked things in reloading many thanks
Thanks mate hope you see the positive results I did. Cheers 👍👍
Great video, and great tips!
Cheers mate 👍👍
Enjoyed and learned from that vid
Keep it up
Thanks mate 👍👍
Learned alot from that, thanks
Cheers mate, glad it was of use 👍👍
Great vids and I watch all of em eh. A1.
Just got one thing to say about "no lube required". Strongly advise you use dry lube on the inside of neck (so you can leave it in). You get that in a little tub filled with plastic beads. You can also use cheap graphite to replentish it when it runs out.
Use imperial wax on the outside. I use that or hornady wax. Either or. Keeps the brass shiney even once you've cleaned it off. Spray on lubes don't work in my opinion. Not when compared to wax.
If you don't lube both inside and out you will one day jam a round in your die and have to somehow get that to a gunsmith. Not worth it. Also, take a look at the type S redding die.
I think you can do exactly what you're doing in one go. It's just a full length die with collets you can change to set neck tension.
Back to the praise! Your vids are the best hunting vids hands down.
Hey mate thanks. Yes there are a few ways of getting the same result.
As for the no lube- to be clear, it is just the 1 step that it’s not required. For the body sizing etc you Definitely need lube just as you’ve said. The Lee collet die doesn’t touch the inside of the neck and only sizes down- this is why it’s possible for that step only. But yes I tend to agree, it’s very important to have a good process and apply it consistently to ensure the brass stays consistent while being worked.
Cheers mate 👍👍
Nothing wrong with using Lee dies , you can load some accurate stuff on them , I am moving to using one die to do both , body sizing & neck sizing , its a Redding Type S Full Bushing die , you will need to measure to order correct dia for your brass .
My main 308 Win load is 175 SMK , Lapua brass , CCI primer & 45gr of ADI 2208 , but as always , this is safe in my Rifle , start a little lower with your own rifle .
3 main things for accuracy , are good bullets ,brass & barrels .
Interesting, I’ll have to check them out. Couldn’t agree more mate 👍👍
Short and sweet....well done..
Thanks mate, much appreciated 👍
Good video mate. Nice and consise. To many videos take 30 minutes to cover what you did in 12. I have started doing this method earlier this year after visiting top shooters in the US. The combo of the Lee collet and the body die works really well. A good point about powder charge for velocity consistency then tuning the seating depth for accuracy. Have found that most velocity nodes are between 6 and 9 thou so I move out in 3 thou increments which usually gives me the start, middle and end of the node. As long as the rifles are up to the task this is a never fail method. Well done.
That’s good to know mate and interesting about the 3 thou I’ll try that next time. Thanks again 👍👍
Hi there really in joying your content. I have a Tikka 300wsm and getting good results with imr4350 and 178gn eldx. Wondering what load you are using?
Cheers Chris.
Great video thanks! Total noob looking to start reloading, have you got or could you do a video on what kit you need to get started and be effective?
Certainly can mate. To be honest it’s a lot less than what you might think. Understanding the process really saves you a lot of money. Plenty of unnecessary money traps. Trust me 😂 thanks 👍
That would be much appreciated! Thanks for sharing the knowledge! 👍🏻
Genius! Mate thats the best explanation ive heard yet and ive dived deep down this reloading rabbit hole before purchasing gear. One question, can i use a Lee Collet doe followed by a lee full length with the expander removed? Will that "bump the shoulder and size the case?
I would use the full length die first, followed by the Lee neck sizing die
with the correct size of diameter mandrel, which will then it will set the
correct neck tension on the bullet, meaning I don't have to bullet crimp!
I like to de cap with a general decapper first, as this puts less presure
on the full length resizing die.
@@richardt.4224 I think I want to avoid the full length resize step
@@stefangabor8549 That's fine, but at some stage the cartridge will not feed!
Hi Tom this is really good info for some of us less capable reloaders. I have been having trouble getting consistent shoulder bump with my cheap Lee press, RCBS die combo. Would you recommend a better press, what's your lube process and would a 2 die system help.
I would try these two die’s before buying a new press as its the cheaper choice and you’ll use them anyway. I use Hornady one shot lube and it works fine. It takes a bit to wear out a press depending on the use. So hopefully that will help. Cheers
Hi just to note unless the press is very warn I would guess it’s not the issue cheers. 👍
There is nothing wrong with the LEE press as long as it is not worn out!
What projectiles and powder to you use for your long range 308 shots
I use a Hornady ELD~M 168gr at a COAL of 2.85” with 44.5gr of AR2208. This is a hot load for some rifles so be careful to start lower. 1/11” twist. There’s definitely more pressure in a 1/10” etc. cheers 👍
@controlledrecoil-nzhunting thanks , do you think the eld-m is better than eld-x
Also I'm only learning, but with a faster twist like 1 in 7 would you use less powder?
Also what is the load details for your subsonic 308
Also it makes sense with what you were saying about normal dies stretching the brass so much .
Thanks so much , I love your videos
Yes you’ll definitely want to start with a lower powder charge and work up in safe increments. Stick to the reloading manual specs. Be aware that a 1/7” twist may be too fast for a ELD-M as there is potential to have jacket/ core separation depending on velocity. Be careful of this.
However the 1/7” twist will be perfect for the subsonic rounds. The ELD-m has the edge if you’re shooting long range but the ELD-X will be better for normal hunting ranges . If you’re shooting up close it may be worth trying some type of bonded bullet depending on what you’re hunting.
Hi Jason,
This data is for subsonic rounds only.
Thanks for your support of the channel, it’s much appreciated.
Reloading can be dangerous. I can’t take responsibility for how you use this information. Please Be aware of the dangers and to approach these loads with caution.
This data has been obtained and tested in my rifles but every rifle is different. Be cautious. I recommend reading a credible reloading manual before you attempt any reloading activities. Your safety ( and others) is the main priority.
With subsonic rounds I start several grains higher and work down ( opposite to high powered rounds). Make sure every round has cleared the barrel and make sure they are stable before using a suppressor to avoid the risk of baffle strike.
Be cautious of misfires as they maybe hang-fires (going off seconds after). If a misfire occurs always wait at least 30sec before unloading and keep the rifle in a safe direction. I’ve had hang-fires go off 6 seconds late ( this was with factory ammunition) so best to play it safe.
The thing that makes subsonic rounds difficult in a 308 sized case (or larger)
Is the lack of volume taken up by the reduced powder charge. This is why low pressure, bulky powder is used. The aim is to have around 80% of the case full so reliable ignition is achieved along with a predictable pressure curve. Obviously this depends on powder type also. You can use a case filler as an option but it usually burns pretty dirty.
(This is why specialty subsonic cartridges like the 300 blackout is designed with low capacity and heavy projectiles.)
A combination of larger projectile weights and lower charges is the balance to get right. The bit that complicates that is stabilising the larger projectiles at these slow speeds. A fast twist barrel is a really big help here. I wouldn’t recommend anything slower than 1/11” twist in the 308 platform.
I crimp my subsonic rounds to help with the neck tension as I’ve found it reduces velocity variations. So I seat to the Cannelure on the subX 190gn.
I shoot a thick cardboard box at 50yards to test stability - without suppressor first.
Look for nice round holes on both sides to insure it isn’t going sideways, or has significant yaw.
Remember Trail Boss is incredibly light for its size so I highly recommend not using electric scales, unless they are very sensitive ones, and go with the good old manual balance types if possible as some electric scales struggle to pick up the very small increments it seems, depending on the unit.
Velocity spread is the main battle with subs , so make sure everything is very consistent. Every inconsistency is exaggerated because of the low velocity. If you get this right you can shoot a surprising distance- 160yard with shoulder shots, using the SubX projectile.
If the velocity spread is higher than 25fps you will quickly see vertical stringing at distance.
My data is as follows:
All data from Bolt Action Rifles:
308 Winchester.
190gr Hornady SubX
Powder- Trail Boss.
Sako brass
Standard rifle primer- Winchester WLR
For 16” barrel 1/11” twist: 10.5gn
1055 fps
For 18.5” Barrel 1/10” twist: 10.5gn
1040 fps
For 24” Barrel 1/10” twist: 9.8gn
1035-1045 fps. NOTE: Magnum primer on this load. Winchester WLRM.
This should give a good idea out of most platforms.
Remember any change of any component’s
Could lead to a very different result.
The sound barrier changes slightly with air density so I recommend having 20 FPS gap as a minimum to insure its subsonic in all conditions. If you live in very cold climates I’d recommend 1030-1040fps rather than 1050fps etc.
Please check rounds are clearing the barrel when testing. They can get stuck if the load is too low.
I’m currently working on alternative options for powder as Trail Boss is almost impossible to get now.
I’ll let you know when I have some reliable data.
This all sounds complicated but once you find a load that is safe and reliable in your rifle, you’re good to go.
A 45/70govt is a surprisingly good large calibre to use subsonic rounds from, not relative to this information but a good platform to try if you have one.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions if anything doesn’t make sense.
Thanks for the support.
Cheers,
Tom.
How long is the barrel? I presume it’s a 308 also?
Good video bud
Cheers mate Appreciate you tuning in 👍