Hunting Cartridge Performance | Five Factors Explained | A Basic Overview
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2023
- A Quick Overview of the combination of factors that makes a cartridge effective for hunting. Projectile construction is key.
Hope this helps. Thanks for your support. - บันเทิง
Excellent. So good to hear someone (a young fella no less) who understands what they are doing and is dedicated to doing the right thing. Extremely refreshing and encouraging. And thank God ballistic gel wasn't mentioned once! ❤❤❤😂. Good on ya Tom. Keep up the good work!
Thanks mate. Ha yes ballistic gel gives an approximation of performance but it is far from the reality of a hunting situation and in many cases is quite misleading. Not a proper comparison in my opinion. I appreciate your support. Stay safe 👍👍
Awesome videos mate, appreciate the time you put into explaining things that are often overlooked, as someone who is relatively new to the hunting game the content you put out helps a lot. Appreciate it 👍
Thanks mate glad it helps out. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any specific questions. Details at the end of the video 👍👍
Well spoken My Weatherby .300 win mag loves reloaded 200gr ELDX. Super accurate Also Woodliegh 200gr solid results .Both for Water buffalo
Cheers mate, nice combo 👍👍
Very interesting, cheers for sharing your knowledge and experience 👍
Thanks for watching 👍👍
Great video. Cool insight for beginners and experienced loaders. I have been running 165g sierra tipped gamekings. Getting 2550fps out of my 18in 308. Haven’t shot game past 350m yet but they work really well.
Nice, the 165s seem to be a popular choice. I haven’t used the TGK in the 308 but my mates do and from what iv seen they go well. 👍
Another real good vid mate. I’m using an old mossberg 800b .243 using Winchester soft point 80gr factory ammo. Shooting reds an fallow around the sub 250m mark, but been taught you learn a lot more stalking in an getting close as possible to your target than shooting at long range (where applicable) imo. .243 very underrated cartridge
Mate the good old 243 is a great cartridge! My first high powered rifle was a 243 and I have zero complaints. I do agree you learn more about hunting and animals by getting in close. I feel everyone should start out stalking. Its a very important skill. It’s great to be a good marksman but you need to be the hunter first. Cheers 👍
Thank You. Great information. Great job doing this on the fly, unscripted. I appreciate it.
Regards,
Denis
Thanks appreciate you watching 👍👍
Great info and understanding
Thanks mate 👍
Hi Tom, great post, very informative 👍 theres a hell of a lot to consider for reloading ! Myself given time redstrictions etc im using factory ammo federal .270 130 grain, deer mainly out to about 300-350, have shot goats at 430 mtr, one day when the kids are older ill look into diving into the reloading game, cheers anyway love your work 👍 greg
Thanks mate. I also have two rifles that shoot factory ammo for convenience in case I haven’t had time to reload. Thanks for watching. 👍👍
Great vid and a really interesting topic. I liked the concept of using a softer bullet at longer ranges to aid in expansion and vica versa. I've been using of late 130gr ELD-M's in my 260 Rem, but just bought some 140gr Speer Impacts which are a bonded bullet and I expect to be much less explosive than the ELD-M's to get more pen on large pigs. After watching this vid I'm thinking the exercise might be to work out expected speeds at different ranges for Speer Impacts once I've settled on a load, refer back to Speer's data on minimum speed needed for expansion and work out some sort of useable maximum range for these bullets.
Worth noting the formula for Kinetic Energy (the energy of movement, or the amount of work required to bring an object to a stop). Kinetic energy of an object equals half its mass multiplied by the velocity squared, so KE = (0.5 x mass) x velocity x velocity. Because velocity is squared, a small increase in velocity yields a large increase in energy.
Hi, yes thats a good point around energy.
I think your choice will do as you intended. If you find them under expanding aim to hit the should and break bone however I suspect that having the tougher projectile is going to be perfect for larger pigs. Pigs seem to be a very dense animal for size and iv never had a problem with expansion on them, I have however seen under penetration. Good choice. Cheers 👍😁
Bluddy good maaaaate!!!
Will have to save this one.
Cheers mate. Going to do a vid on my reloading process as well sometime soon. 👍😁
Great info thanks
Cheers mate 👍👍
Excellent break down there fella. Im also in the heavy projectile weight for calibre too. Catridges and projectile combos that seem to be forgiving in most scenarios so far me have been, .308 win with a 168gr TMK or ELDM, seems to be an efficient combo at 308 speeds in nearly every scenario ive used it so far from 0-650 yards. 180 ELDM in 7mm rem mag. Good energy transfer out long, high B.C and solid terminal performance . Experimenting now with the 123 eldm in 6.5 Grendel, seems to work with the Grendel's modest velocity
Yeah, totally. This is a really huge topic that could last for days, amd I know you wanted to keep it shorter, especially for new people. I just wanted to chime in a little.
Yes the TMKs are great. I agree with you, heavy projectiles for calibre and a softer construction seems to balance nicely. Cheers mate 👍
I thinks it’s great to see what others are using. Cheers 👍😁
Hi Tom. New to your channel and loving it. I’ve recently got into reloading and have just my 7mm08. I found this talk really interesting. I used to hunt with 140gr Remington corelokt mostly for fallow and the bullets typically wouldn’t exit leaving a decent hole in the chest cavity. Now I’ve been reloading mostly with 139 grain BTSP Hornady interlocks and I’ve noticed animals from the same distance (200m) have an exit wound that’s pretty clean. They have all dropped but I’m wondering now if the projectile is travelling too slow, or it’s too hard or a fallow’s chest is putting up less resistance and it’d be perfect on a big red? Or given that it’s been working I shouldn’t think too hard on it. I’m also wondering what the implications are if I plan to use the same projectile out to longer ranges.
Hey mate thanks for your support.
I would say if it’s working just use it and gain confidence in the ammo combo until it gives you a reason to doubt it. There are plenty of options out there and most work fine. Fallow being smaller will have less target resistance than something like a Red so at longer ranges it would pay to try and hit bone if possible to aid expansion.
It all really depends on how far out you’re going to shoot. The 7mm08 is such a great cartridge , you’ll have plenty of options with it if needed.
Well done.
Thanks mate 👍😁
Great informative clip. Always avoided the reloading rabbit hole. Cost of living crisis has changed my thinking. Had excellent results with .308 and 180g Nosler partitions, good clean kills, but was bush hunting in North Island. They have become unobtanium. Now about to embark on a change in religion living in the South Island with .270 and 130g interlocks for maybe longer shots. Just trying to sort a simple load for home reloading without too much information. Hard to get started without spending too much time in the armchair with the internet advice. Any suggestions?
For the 270 Winchester I would go for a 140 or higher. 150-160s in a efficient projectile if you are wanting to stretch the distance. It’s got plenty of powder capacity to push them and this gets you the higher BC which will help a lot.
Depending on your barrel length AR2209 ( shorter barrel 20-22” ) and AR2217 ( 24” or longer). IMR4350 I believe is also pretty good.
Just remember in the world of reloading there isn’t a lot of difference between the 308 and 270 especially if the 308 has a 20-24” barrel. If you load a 308 with 130gr you are getting almost the same velocity as the 270 with a 130.
If you’re shooting longer distances use projectiles in the 160-170gr range for the 308.
When reloading for the 270 the 150-160s are the sweet spot iv found. The 270 will have a better BC than the 308 if you go for the heavier projectiles.
Any recommendations for using suppressed subsonics? I hunt goats with either a 308 with factory Winchester super suppressed 168gr or a 22 shooting CCI 40grn softpoint subs. Shot placement relative to distance I've found critical with 22. Max distance for the 22 I've been happy with is about 50yd for a double lung, under 20yd I go for shoulder or head. I'm not sure how far the 308 will kill ethically - 90 yd is the max I've tried. I haven't tried any long shots on big goats as I'm guessing the difference between hitting a 70kg billy and a small nanny is significant.
The key with subsonic rounds is having a projectile that will expand effectively at subsonic velocities and a very low velocity spread to ensure accuracy at distance.
The only projectile I’ve seen work perfectly out of the 308 is the hornady SubX projectiles. I use the 190s.
Obviously if you’re head shooting you can use any projectile but if you’re wanting a good reliable projectile but for shoulder shots I’d recommend the SubXs. I’ve cleanly killed large Billy’s at 200 yards but would recommend staying inside 160 for most situations.
Remember because the problem is lack of expansion due to low velocity it’s best to hit bone to aid expansion by hitting good target resistance ( point of the shoulder works well ).
This is of course is not the same when using a .22LR as it’s such a small round. I would agree that although I’ve killed out to 80yards, 50 is really a more realistic and ethical distance for subsonics out of a .22.
I have a video of the 308 SubX in action.
Hope this helps. Thanks. 👍👍
7mm08 with the 162 gr Eldm fot me. Recoil is great and the impact to 475m so far has been on the money.
The 162 from the 7mm is a great combo and very efficient too 👍😁 thanks for sharing
Hi Tom - just found you’re channel enjoying it thank you. 👍
I’m new to the .308 just staring up on it with the idea of stretching legs a little. (Hoping for 4-5 hundred yards.) First load I’ve worked up to is 45G 748 with a 165G TGK giving me about 2640fps & no pressure sign out of a 20” T3. That was ‘quick load’ max may try a little more and see what accuracy is like as others books say 47G max (will likely be a little compressed.) To get the higher BC of the TGK it needs to be north of 2700fps. Not had a chance to take it hunting yet but would be interested if you had any thoughts on the 165G TGK.
I didn’t realise case capacity to be a bit of an issue in the .308 having come from a .25-06. Have some 2208 to try also.
If you didn’t mind I’d be interested to hear what you have found good in the .308. Cheers.
Thanks mate much appreciated.
Sounds like you’re on the right track.
If I was you I’d go straight for the AR2208.
I imagine you’ll almost get exactly 2700 fps out of a 20” with the 165 TGK . They are a good projectile. I’d go for 44.5 -45.0 gr of AR2208 as the expected accuracy node for a Tikka if it’s the factory barrel. Seat them out right to the limit of the Tikka mag and you’ll be good to go. Just be sure to start a 1 gr lower or so and work up to ensure safety.
I reload in two stages:
Get the powder charge right using the chronograph to know when the Velocity spread is low, indicating a stable pressure cure.
Then tune the accuracy using the seating depth.
This makes it far easier to know your progress. Good luck, let me know how you go 👍😁
Cheers mate will do
Something to consider in a shorter barreled 308, 2206h is also a good choice vs Varget(2208) tends to give you a little more speed. I'm currently getting 2650 fps with 168gr tmks with a fairly mild load of 2206h (42.8gr I think) goes close to .3 moa. Has worked in several 308s. Leaves you more room than 2208 if you are chasing speed (less bulky than 2208)
2206h is a faster burning powder so yes better for a shorter barrel, being a 20” barrel the 2208 will still be perfect, tgk’s are a really good projectile, plenty of penetration at ranges. I was getting 2770fps from a 16” barrel 308 using 2206h and 150g ssts.
Terrific advice. Iv been loving high shoulder shots with soft lead bullets from 7mm08. Thin shoulder blade mushrooms for lot of hi lung n nervous system damage. Too high and its spine. Too low more lung. Too far forward neck. Too far back spine. Only for side on animals but
Thanks for watching. Yes I agree it’s usually the most effective side on shot and gives the most margin for error and still be effective. If you end up shooting way too low you hit heart also. 7mm08 is a great cartridge.
Really appreciate the support 👍😁
Hi Tom, I run a savage 308win, Winchester superx 150g power-points. Great from 5m-475m is my longest shot so far. I found around 150m-300m is the most accurate and effective for a clean and fast despatch of the animal. Cheap gun, cheap ammo, very effective together (in my experience). Cheers
Cheers . Yes it doesn’t have to be expensive to work. What animals do you hunt?
Deer, red and fallow mainly with my 308, I also do alot of goat & small game control for farmers, mostly using .22LR & the 308 where needed. Cheers
Nice one. Glad to hear you’ve got some private land to hunt too. It’s always nice if possible. 👍😁
Hey bud from one reloader to another great videos. I picked up a 6.5x55 last year and finally got to load testing yesterday. Shooting 140 gr sst, lapua brass and ramshot hunter powder 41.5 gr. My rifle did not like the berger 140gr elite hunters. Anyway 3 shot group was perfectly horizontal all 3 shots touched. I went home loaded up a few more rounds and shot another 3 shot group… everything was the same but it opened up to an 1.375” group. I have been reloading for over 20 years and lots of different calibers. Never have i seen this. Rifle is bedded. Freefloated barrel and i adjust my triggers to 2.5 pounds. Just wondering your thoughts. I will probably head back into the field tomorrow and try another 3 shot group. If it does the same then i will sell it.
Hi ,sounds like you’re using good components 👍
what rifle configuration? and are you shooting off a bench / bi-pod etc?
Usually I would guess that to be a harmonic problem from Rifle deployment.
For example I have seen that happen from shooting a bi-pod off something hard like a bench if there is nothing to weight it onto. What sort of rear rest do you use?
Sorry I know I’m probably not asking anything you haven’t tried, just trying to get a feel for the situation. As you know lots of things to eliminate in these situations.
If it’s easier you can contact me for a call.
My details are at the end of each video.
Cheers.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting took the factory sights off. It was a harmonics issue. Shoots 3/8 moa
Great vid/content Tom, awesome explanations. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I love my 7mmRemMag 21"barrel using 180gr ELD-M 2900fps, works a treat, however I've just given my daughter my 16.5" .308 shooting 168 ELD-M 2480fps for her solo missions. If you watch our channel hopefully you'll see it in action. Please correct me if I'm wrong my advice to her would be aiming for crease (avoiding bone) ?? I'd expect her typical range would be 350 - 450. It still has just over 1000ft/lbs at 550yrds but I've told her to try avoid that distance for now at least. Your thoughts?. Sorry for the extra long message. Phil.
Hi,
Sounds great I’ll check out your Channel.
What powder are you using in your 7mmRemMag?
At 350-400 yards in the 308 it won’t matter as there will be sufficient expansion using 168 ELD-M hitting the crease and the projectile at that range isn’t moving too fast to hit bone. So taking the high shoulder shot will be fine also as it won’t over expand at this range.
On very large animals I would aim crease to be safe, especially in close, however I personally haven’t seen ELD-Ms fail at any range with this weight projectile at this speed. I have seen them often not exit though when shot up close.
The high/ mid shoulder shot is my go to personally for just about every situation and animal when using the short 308 168ELD-Ms for animals in New Zealand.
But still use caution up close on big animals as the potential is there for over expansion.
Hope this helps.
Cheers. 😁👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting thanks Tom, really happy to have your elaborate reply and expertise. Really appreciate it. In my 7mmRM I'm using Reloader 26. Cheers Phil.
Awesome thanks mate might have to try some.
In short you can’t really go wrong with the 308 168s with those velocities. Very forgiving combination.👍👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting sounds great, thanks heaps. ps. Love your channel mate, keep them coming. 👍
🍻
Thanks mate 👍
Great video Tom,7ml 08 hornadys 150 grain,anywhere from 5mtrs to 200 would be furtherest.clean kill knock Downs on shoulder or kneck shots.
Have since gone to howa 223 using Remingtons 55 grain.
This was where accuracy and the animals standing or position came very important compared to 7ml 08.
Big differences in gun carry weight on bigger walks as I don't use a shoulder strap..
223 is cheap and very accurate..
Yeah nice Choice. Two proven cartridges. The 223 is certainly is easier on the pocket. Is that an SST projectile in the 7mm? Cheers 👍👍
Most likely a eldx if its 150g for a 7m08
Yes you’re right it probably is 👍👍
Yeah mate eldx👍
Excellent explanation for your choice in projectile to achieve desired terminal ballistics. I essentially used the same metrics to come to the same conclusion as you and have also had great success using 168gr ELD-M’s in my 308’s and now use 162gr
ELD-M’s in my 7mm-08. My target species are mainly Pigs and Deer however these work well on foxes and other ferals if you are not concerned about pelt damage.
Hi, yes it just seems to be the sweet spot for those two cartridges. Great to hear you’re having success. Are you in the northern hemisphere or Australia to get foxes?
I’m in the bigger, heavier bullet camp…..if you can handle the trajectory. I believe a heavier bullet, given the same BC, will have more penetration at distance. It just doesn’t shoot as flat.
I have an 8x57 Mauser. It’s an old Spanish one from the 1950’s, in the K98 pattern. It was sporterized with one of those cheap stocks with the orange butt pad that’s now hard as a rock. I’m sure one or two of you guys know what I’m talking about. It’s pitted, ugly, and a well beaten up gun, but once I developed a load for it, I was getting around 1 inch groups. I also have a 1942 Husqvarna in mint condition in 6.5x55 Swede that shoots like a dream, but I haven’t taken it hunting yet, and just acquired another one that was redone to shoot 9.3x57. That’s a real beauty, stock was redone really expertly. Can’t wait to try it, and I’ll hopefully use it one day in the field.
I’m in eastern canada, so unless you have access to a farm or something, the forests are generally pretty thick. Hard to even find a spot over 100yds, so for now it’s my 1921 model 1894 Winchester…..yes, I love old guns.
I recently watched a video about shot placement. The poster suggested that a high shoulder shot was more effective, and even more forgiving for accuracy than a traditional vital shot. I’d love to hear your opinion on that if you ever want to do another video like this. I found it interesting, but he didn’t back up why, and of course the comments from all kinds of people were all over the place.
Hi, yes I agree with you that the heavier projectiles for the calibre are generally the best way to go. I probably should of mentioned that along with BC and sectional density, but was just trying to keep the video manageable and not talk too long, maybe I’ll do another at some point.
Those rifles sound amazing. I too have a soft spot for old rifles. I have two Swedes around 100 and 120 years old. Shoot great also.
Thanks a lot for watching and your comment 👍😁
To answer your question about shot placement, I generally prefer a shoulder shot that is centre line on the chest or slightly higher. I will do a video on this, thanks.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting That’d be a great video for me, and I think there’s a lot of discussion about that topic. The calibre size for size of game is another one you could have gone on for quite some time too.
MM77 Approved 👍🏼👍🏼……………………………………………………………Good topic and video. I’m kinda curious about the firearms laws in your country and suppressor regulations. I can look them up, but that’s not an explanation from someone who has to live with the laws. Thanks!
We are pretty good over here with suppressors. Can buy them over the counter pretty much, or a quick 2week turnaround if it’s getting threaded etc. no extra paperwork just your standard gun license. I think it’s sensible as the biggest advantage is saving your hearing.
👍😁
I'm a .308 reloader and interested in your 190gr SubX load data. Can you help me out?
Yes of course. What barrel length and twist are you using?
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting 20" barrel, 1/10
Hi,
Thanks for your support of the channel, it’s much appreciated.
Reloading can be dangerous. I can’t take responsibility for how you use this information. Please Be aware of the dangers and to approach these loads with caution.
This data has been obtained and tested in my rifles but every rifle is different. Be cautious. I recommend reading a credible reloading manual before you attempt any reloading activities. Your safety is the main priority.
With subsonic rounds you start several grains higher and work down ( opposite to high powered rounds). Make sure every projectile has cleared the barrel and make sure they are stable before using a suppressor to avoid the risk of baffle strike. Be cautious of misfires as they maybe hang-fires (going off seconds after).
I crimp my subsonic rounds to help with the neck tension as I’ve found it reduces velocity variations. So seated to the Cannelure on the subX 190gn.
I shoot a thick cardboard box at 50yards to test stability - without suppressor first.
Look for nice round holes on both sides to insure it isn’t going sideways, or has significant yaw.
Remember Trail Boss is incredibly light for its size so I highly recommend not using electric scales, unless they are very sensitive ones, and go with the good old manual balance types if possible as some electric scales struggle to pick up the very small increments it seems, depending on the unit.
Velocity spread is the main battle with subs , so make sure everything is very consistent. Every inconsistency is exaggerated because of the low velocity. If you get this right you can shoot a surprising distance- 160yard with shoulder shots.
If the velocity spread is higher than 25fps you will quickly see vertical stringing at distance.
My data is as follows:
All loads are with Trail Boss.
308 Winchester.
190gr Hornady SubX
Powder- Trail Boss.
Sako brass
Standard rifle primer- Winchester WLR
For 16” barrel 1/11” twist: 10.5gn
1055 fps.
For 18.5” Barrel 1/10” twist: 10.5gn
1040 fps
For 24” Barrel 1/10” twist: 9.8gn
1035-1045 fps. NOTE: Magnum primer on this load. Winchester WLRM.
For a 20” 1/10” twist I’d estimate you’re going to be around 10.3gn.
Remember start higher and work down. Check for stability, then worry about velocity.
This should give you a good idea of performance out of most platforms.
Remember any change of any component’s (including the rifle) Could lead to a very different result and be possibly dangerous.
The sound barrier changes slightly with air density. I recommend having loads at least 25FPS lower than the sound barrier as a minimum to insure they are subsonic in most conditions.
Please check projectiles are clearing the barrel when testing. They can get stuck if the load is too low.
Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions if anything doesn’t make sense.
Thanks for the support.
Cheers,
Tom.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting Much appreciated. I'm an experienced reloader and this isn't my first Subs rodeo so you don't need to worry about me being safe. Just curious were you ended up. I'm going to use H4895 and start at 12.5gr. Hodgdon has it listed at 13.3. I will probably end up somewhere around 13.5 but we'll see. Thanks for your information.
Joe S
Awesome, just thought I’d add it in incase other’s read the comments.
Good luck 👍👍
needed to be said
Thanks for watching 👍😁
hi i shoot fellow deer out to 300m + with my 22-250 using 55grain Gameking reloads and get great results
Awesome thanks for sharing. That’s a cartridge you don’t see so often here but man they are an effective flat shooter. We use them for meat recovery where head and neck shots are a must to avoid meat damage. Thanks for watching 👍