308win 16” Shorty At 1115 Yards | Can it do it? |The Importance Of Training
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- Some tips and comments on training. The shooting action starts at the 10min Mark.
Paul and I out to check our data on the 308s.
1115yards -challenge on.
Bergara hunter 308
Zeiss 4-16
165gr SST
22” Barrel 1/12” twist.
Tikka T3x 308
Element Optics 2-16x50 HDLR
168 gr ELD-M
16” barrel. 1/11” twist.
Velocity @1115yards is 1042fps
Energy @ 1115yards is 407 ft/lb
Corrected Drop 46.5 MOA - บันเทิง
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Great video mate. You’re absolutely spot on with everything that you said in this video. And it’s really GREAT ADVICE for even very seasoned shooters to make sure that we all go through our D.O.P.E and data and make sure that everything is Trude and verified at distance. And I loved what you said about all these new calipers and barrel Lancs. For example you Scoota 65 PRC and drop your barrel length back from 24 to even 20 inches and all of a sudden you’re actually only shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor as far as velocity and energy on target is concerned. Love your work man.
Cheers mate. Yes good example with the 6.5prc. Great cartridge but It certainly suffers in a short barrel. Thanks again 👍👍
Honestly mate, you have done an amazing job on this video I reckon it’s one of the best videos. I have watched in a very long time well done mate it’s one of the best videos on TH-cam today. You should be very proud of yourself
Cheers mate, I really appreciate your support and glad you enjoyed it. More on the way 👍👍
What a very good and informative video, I hope your other viewers take note.
I don't do those long distances mainly because I only use a .243 Win, plus I'm 70!
So that would mean a long distant retrieve.
I have been in contact with Hornady regarding my 90gn ELD X bullets and mine is 1600fps.
You had yours at 1400fps.
I reload 50 rounds at a time and chronograph the first three.
I don't use an app because phones can break and or loose battery life!
I then make a drop chart and stick it to the stock.
I also put a couple of shots on a gong before leaving for a hunt, normally at 400Yds.
As I said, very valuable info in this video. THANX.
Hi, yes thats the best way. Batch reload and test each batch 👍 you may be right about 1600fps I’ll check that. Either way I’ve definitely seen them expand at 1400
But this is pushing limits. I don’t often shoot past 550yards on game. Cheers 👍
Thanx for the positive reply.
My max distance on deer is at the 400Yd mark normally,
but if weather is perfect then I might try up to 500Yds.
My enemy is the wind and with a lite calibre, it's a major factor for me.
Best distance for me (so far) was 375Yds on a fallow.
@richardt.4224 400 is a great shot on a deer. Yes the wind is king. It definitely comes down to conditions on the day 👍
Sweet shootin lads and great advice mate. I miss the long range stuff but do enjoy the stalking with the little bush Ruger I’ve got now.
Mate it’s still hard to beat the stalking. I think most hunters would agree that while long range is satisfying, its the close stuff that gets the hands shaking. 👍👍
Great info mate, unfortunately too many people these days think that because they have an app and a scope that has dial up they are all long range shooters, I’ve also seen a trend from some shooters that have forgotten how to just allow for drop and use holdover and won’t shoot without dialing, not enough people are practicing with there gear and getting realistic data, keep up the good work brother 🤙🏼 and 1km with a 308 very nice shooting.
Yeah mate you’re not wrong. Always got to practice and stay sharp. Cheers 👍👍
Impressive shots and bloody good advice. Thank you for that
Cheers Alex, thanks for watching 👍
A whole lot of helpful tips mate! Cheers!
Cheers mate 👍😁
What a ripper of a vid Tom. So well put together and caped of with a top shot cobber.🤠
Cheers mate good to see you back again 👍👍
what a shot!! thanks for sharing mate, always very good content!
Thanks mate, appreciate your support 👍👍
*Controlled Recoil - NZ Hunting* Bravo well done, thank-you sir for taking the time to bring us along. GOD Bless.
Thanks mate 👍👍
awesome advice and shooting i had a old winchester 308 that i used for hunting long range and bush hunting and knew exactly were to shoot out to 800m
Yeah the good old Winchesters were great guns. Thanks for watching and commenting mate 👍😁
Top shot mate and very informative.
Cheers mate👍. Have you had that 300 of yours out recently?
Excellent content! Thanks
Cheers mate, thanks for your support 👍👍
another great video good to see a little behind the hunt activities.
Cheers mate 👍😁
Very awesome video!!!
Thanks mate I appreciate your support 👍
Cheers for sharing, great video
Thanks mate 👍👍
Great video Tom, extremely informative and wicked shooting from you both. Thanks for sharing your tips with us all. Practice Practice Practice (ps I'm off to the range tomorrow with T's shorty) cheers mate.
Cheers mate . we will spend our whole lives learning in this game. There’s always more to it. Practice and living it is the only way to get better. I’m sure the good old short will pull through for ya 👍👍
Great advice and nice to see the eldm expansion! Using 7mm 162 eldm myself but haven't tried past 500 yet. Nice shot by the way 😮
Cheers mate. The 162s are great and efficient. I’ve definitely seen them work out at 650 from a 7mm08. 👍👍
That was excellant. Cheers 👍
Cheers brother!! 👍😁
Great video. Very interesting. I felt as though I was the only one using 165gn SST 30cal projectiles. Awesome to see the potential. Cheers
Yeah they really are a great all rounder. The good old SST are underrated I reckon. We forget that not that long ago they were the one we used to measure the rest on. Cheers mate 👍👍
Great content mate 👍
Thanks mate really appreciate it 👍
What an eve for it!!! Well done
Yeah it was crazy good conditions. Cheers bro
Top vid mate👌 Haha I wondered if after that cracker shot if u tried to repeat it a few times and failed miserably so cut that footage out🤣🤣🤣
I would have quit while I was ahead too👍😁
Stay safe budd🤙
Ha yeah finish on a good note. In all honesty I was very confident in the follow up. The conditions were that good it was easy to know what was happening down range which definitely helps when sorting out data. Cheers.
Amazing shot from such a short barrel.
Great job 🤙🏼🇺🇸
Cheers mate. It’s interesting to see what it can do. 👍👍
Some believe shorter barrels have less resonance or barrel whip and are easier to machine straighter, potentially making a more accurate barrel. That being said, velocity is lost, so dope becomes much more important to be spot on.
Hi yes I’ve heard that before somewhere. Interesting theory- in a way it makes sense as it would be more rigid. That being said there is a lot to de-stressing the steal etc that plays a massive part in consistency. If that isn’t done correctly most likely the barrel won’t shoot regardless of length. It would be interesting to see what barrel manufacturers think of this.
Cheers 👍👍
Great video. Often ego and range shooting creates delusion. In a real world adrenaline fueled situation I trust myself at 250-300m. Im no crack shot, if I cant sneak in it lives for another day
I Agree. The simple thing is the closer the better. Realistically it’s still very easy to get it wrong at any range depending on the circumstances. We owe it to the animal to get it right. Any shot when they go down straight away is a good shot regardless of the range. Thanks again 👍👍
Wow! Top shot
Thanks mate really appreciate you taking the time to watch 👍😁
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting No drama mate
Love it🤙🏼
Cheers mate thanks for watching. You did well through all that talking I did 😂
Great video and info. Good on ya sharing the realities of some calibers working well/adequately in shorter barrels and others suffering more. 🍻
A fun thing to do beyond 400 yards is to put a target backing about 2 feet behind your target to see the drop after initial impact to give you an idea of the actual flight path of the bullet.
Thanks mate. Yes it’s amazing how much arc is on a bullet at that range. Cheers 👍👍
Thanks for sharing very impressive shot with that shorty! Have you found a alternative to trail boss powder for subsonic work?
Cheers mate. Looks like Green Dot will be the best so far. Will have a video on that soon 👍
nice shot!
Cheers mate. Good to see you back again 👍👍
What kind of accuracy are you able to achieve with this set up & load at 100Y? Do you mind me asking are you using 2208 behind the ELDM?
I am currently seeing about 1 MOA groups at 100Y with W748 / 165TGK from stock T3. Would like to achieve 1/2 MOA.
How do you find the ELDM as a hunting bullet compared to the ELDX & SST?
As always great content I gain a lot from your channel. Cheers.
Hey mate. The ELD-m and ELD-x are very similar with the ELD-m being slightly softer construction and not officially designed for hunting. In my experience I can hardly see a difference between each when used for hunting. It important to note that I’m using them mostly for long distance shooting where the lower impact velocity balances the rapid expansion down to an optimal level for energy transfer and penetration. This is often on lighter game too. Unless you’re using a very “heavy for calibre projectile” presumably with less velocity I would recommend some type of bonded bullet for most situations out to 300yards and definitely on larger tough game. This 308 is only producing velocities of 2530 fps so I get away with it. I really do recommend the ELD-M though if your shooting longer ranges especially 300yards and beyond even on Red Stag sized game especially if your starting at lower velocities.
All 3 of these bullets will expand rapidly and in most cases behave very similar with the main difference being the ELD-m having a slightly higher BC.
This rifle produces very nice groups which are usually one large hole or a nice clover leaf if I do my part. The seating depth really makes a difference in turning your accuracy I tend to seat mine out as far as a Tikka mag will take them. From memory
I believe the COAL is 2.85”
I use AR2208 powder but there are other options to get better performance out of a short barrel. This just happens to be very accurate and I don’t want to change.
Hope this helps , cheers 👍
Nice 👍
I’d like to try a no wind place. When we hunt sometimes it’s up to 50mph and I won’t take over a 300yd shot in western Oklahoma
Mate I bet! 50mph is a good puff.
It certainly isn’t usually that calm here.
We usually are allowing for 10mph - 20mph pretty regularly but is nice to not have to for once. Winter is definitely more settled here for LR shooting. Cheers
now some impact shots on some game haha. very interesting vid
Yeah hopefully get some opportunities in the next week or so. Cheers mate 👍
❤❤❤❤
Cheers mate 👍
Great video and discussion about the reasonable range of your gun and muchly needed in today's hunting environment. I shoot a Steyr Scout 308 with a 19" barrel. On top the gun is a Nightforce Custom reticle 2.5-10x that matches the ballistics of my load. The gun has taken bull elk, moose, mountain lion, big black bear and many deer. It shoots hand loaded 150 grain Trophy Bonded bear claws. I like bonded bullets since most of my shooting is relatively close range and we have grizzly's where I hunt. I consider 1700fps as the cut off for good expansion so 300 yards is my cut off on big game. The gun could easily shoot groups at 1000 yrds as it is sub .5 MOA.
Thanks mate, sounds like a great setup.
Yes it’s a different story using bonded bullets and much larger game. I agree that the velocity must be a lot higher for the harder rounds. Cheers 👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting Bullet selection is the key for hunting, good expansion and penetration. I shot a big horn ram with a Hornady SST at about 240yards out of a 6.5 Creedmoor. I recovered two of the three bullets necessary to plant the ram. Their retained weight was very poor. Accuracy was fantastic but not a good bullet for retained weight. So now I only shoot bonded bullets.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting I have a poster and article on bullet performance vs velocity that a close friend wrote years ago in Reloader Magazine. Very thorough testing on many different bullets. Would love to send it to you and get your thoughts on it.
Yes you’re right. They definitely break up when used inside 300yards especially on large solid animals. They are great at longer ranges but it definitely the right choice going to a bonded bullet. A Good point to bring up cheers 👍👍
Yeah mate I’d be very interested to see it.
My details are at the end of the video cheers 👍
Great video Tom.
Do you get much muzzle flash with the 16” barrel with a suppressor fitted? I’ve been thinking of going for a 16” .308 but have been advised anything below 18” will have a lot of muzzle flash.
Hi, I haven’t had an issue with it but this may vary depending on the suppressor.
Personally I think the 18” barrel is a better option. I have another rifle that’s 18” and it’s slightly more pleasant to fire- less bark and you are able to fit a larger over barrel suppressor also making it more pleasant. As for handling 18” isn’t enough difference to have any negatives and balance will still be nice even with the suppressor. Just my two cents 😁 cheers 👍
MM77 Approved 👍🏼 👍🏼………………………………………………………..Thanks for the tutorial !!
Cheers mate 👍👍
Love my 16"tikka 308
Yeah they are pretty hard to beat as an all rounder. Cheers mate 👍👍
@controlledrecoil-nzhunting I might upgrade the 3-9 vx2 I've been wanting a vx5 3-15 for a while. Love your videos mate. Especially the subsonic ones
The VX5s are nice scopes. I personally would recommend ordering one with a good reticle as most lack information.
Wind plex is ok but doesn’t help if you’re shots are low or high. I’ve had a very good experience with the ones I’ve used though. Great turrets and zero stop. The extra magnification is a game changer. More sub vids on the way 👍👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting thanks for the info mate
Do You find that scope is repeatable with the dialling and the MOA clicks line up? Who retails them in NZ? Nice shooting
Hi, yes I’ve had good success with this scope. Call Wayne at Element optics NZ on +64 272009746. He’s a good guy and will sort you out 👍👍
The clouds covering the sun changes the air density too, though most likely not 4moa worth it’s still enough to cause you impact to be high.
Hi, yes it definitely effects it. The Barometric Pressure was 27.95 on this shot with the altitude at 570m.
Cheers 👍👍
Higher velocity with increase in humidity, worth about 1 MOA with a 20% increase.
Hi guys, the first shot was 3.5moa high due to a data error. My zero input in the rifle profile on my app had changed my zero by 25yards. This was the issue. Although many conditions effect the projectile It takes something major like this to effect elevation that much at that distance.
This is explained earlier in the video.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting well, what’s really good here is the author of this video is analyzing the reason for misplaced shots. In LR competition I see new shooters to the game sometimes produce very small groups but in the wrong place. Now assuming these shooters called their shots it would seem that they would see the need for a sight adjustment but instead they just continue to shoot to the same low scoring spot. Why? It’s because they don’t know the value of analyzing works in progress. Of course, this will thwart results as well as marksmanship development until they do begin to analyze the source of shot error. So, at any rate, call the shot and plot both the call and strike using the corollary to determine source of error: for example: a shot called right in there but striking low might mean a need to adjust elevation-so do it before taking another shot. This at first may be seen as a leap of faith but after a while it will build confidence in knowing everything you need to know to put em all right in there.
Who else has a sig cross .308 and is smiling. Mine is a tacker
They sure are nice rifles. Cheers 👍👍
Day for it. Now the 13in 6creed
Yeah it was perfect conditions for sure. Ha yes that would be interesting. Thanks mate 👍
How about an entry into Bloke on the range moa all day challenge?
Hey mate, yeah that’s a good idea. Might work on setting that up. Cheers for the feedback 👍👍
If you haven't seen “Mountain, Mullets, Merica - 16” 6.5 Creedmoor, go the distance. The guy can shoot.
Clicked to see the rifle and never got to lol
Hi. Ah sorry mate. I’ve had a lot of questions about it so thinking of doing a quick video on it. Cheers
Nice shooting, guys, and very informative. The only question I have is, if shooting at such a long range, what sort of energy transfer would you have on game for an ethical one-shot kill?
Hi, yes at this range the 308 is certainly running out of puff. But to note it’s very much lethal with the right shot placement. However, in this video we are Training at this range to confirm data etc but would only shoot animals much closer. The 16” 308 only has 407 ft/lb of energy at this distance with the velocity at 1042 fps which is subsonic at this point.
A ELD-M really needs to be travelling at 1200fps to have a reliable amount of expansion and more like 1400fps ideally. This would be back at 780yards. The other thing to consider is time of flight. The longer it takes for the projectile to get there the more chance of the animal moving. I like to keep flight time under 1sec ideally, this puts it back at 670yards.
To maintain energy of 1000 ft/lbs or more ( often recommended for larger animals) this would be at 610yards. I personally think 610yards is plenty for this rifle system on animals, and although I have taken animals out further this is the maximum i usually work to ( conditions depending) . I honestly prefer to be 550yards or closer even when using a magnum cartridges. It’s still very easy to get it wrong at 550 especially when there’s wind around. Great question and thanks for watching 👍👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting well said
Cheers mate 👍👍
Well done chaps, what powder are u using in ur 16" barrel 168 grn ?
Hi,
Using AR2208 powder.
Hornady 168gr projectile
Sako brass.
Velocity 2531 fps
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting cheers chap, just curious of the twist rate ? I have a fully ''suppressed'' 16'' barrel 308 Barrel 1-9 using N130 getting fantastic 2540fps accuracy at 100 mtres grouping, however not out beyond 600-700mtres, mind you not tested on a non windy day! I purchased barrel to do the both sub and supersonic. So you're doing something right👍
will be moving to NZ soon to the south island 🙂
Nice 1 . I’ve got a 1/11” twist. The 1/9” will be great for Subsonic rounds
I load those same bullets in my 308s, VVN540 powder, Federal 210 match primers, Lapua brass. Can't remember velocity but I shoot in my Tikkas also as well as some custom rifles.
Awesome mate, what barrel lengths are you running and what is your preferred one. Cheers 👍
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting I've not gone down the road of shortening any barrels yet. Jury still out on that one. My customs have 22" and my Tikkas I kept in factory configuration have the 22.4 inch? Never measured.
Nice, I imagine you’ll be getting around 2700-2720 from the 22” barrel? 👍
Personally to do it again I wouldn’t go shorter than 18”.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting I'll know in the next 2 weeks the speed. I originally loaded these for a custom Sako M581 with a cut-rifled Obermeyer barrel that is 24" long. I sold that rifle but the ammo works well in all the other 308s I have. The load data I have for that Sako is below, so yes, velocities will be slower in my current rifles since none are over 22 to 22.4"
45.4 grains of powder at different COAL as follows:
COAL 2.8175 X3 - 2778, 2841, 2839
COAL 2.815 X3 - 2863, 2868, 2871 (BEST GROUP)
COAL 2.8085 X3 - 2894, 2876, 2888
COAL 2.805 X3 - 2857, 2883, 2870
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting Regarding shorter barrels, since I've never cut one short I may never do it. I am in the camp that prefers velocity. From what I can tell, I've been told time and time again, once you start using a suppressor you won't want to be w/o one. I got my first one after the hunting season so this year will be my first time to use it. I have 1 more payment on the second suppressor. Who knows, I may go down that road but after handloading for 35 years I really like my velocities and maximizing a give cartridge's utility. I see 7RemMags for sale with 20" barrels and it's in the name of a lighter rifle to carry in the hills, mountains and to use a suppressor. I get it, just not sure it's for me. Just can't wrap my head around handicapping a cartridge. If someone wants a 7RemMag but in a 20" barrel, why not just get a 280 Remington or a 708? I've been bashed pretty bad in the comment sections when I post that I like a 24" barrel for standard cartridges and 26 to 28 for magnums. There are guys with channels that shoot long range that agree with my thinking too.
One aspect is I'm afraid I may go get a rifle with a shorter barrel and like it. Then I can see me taking ALL of my rifles to my rifle builder and paying the price to shorten them. That's one reason I've not done it yet. Plus, a new good barrel is $400 to $450 these days for steel. Cut that down to 16, 18" I feel like I'm throwing away hard earned money with the eight inches of steel I'd be cutting off just to toss in the garbage.
At that range wind direction can significantly affect the elevation of the shot. It may seem that a zero has changed, eg. A strong headwind will slow the bullet. This will allow gravity to impact the bullet for longer, thus greater bullet drop, to keep it simple. Noting how direction affects elevation during practice is a key skill. ( I mention this only because there's nothing worse than doubting one's zero. ) A tail wind will trend high for the same reason. ( Not even getting into spin drift.... ) Good shooting.
Yes you’re right wind is certainly king. Being able to make good wind calls is a must, especially as hunters where wounding is a possibility if we get it wrong. Ha yep there really isn’t anything worse than doubting your zero😁 cheers mate 👍👍
I shoot in shoot LR competition and use the wind clock to value wind and a wind from noon to 6 or 6 to noon as appraised as having zero value. If the elevation is effected by such a wind I have not recognized it from a boiling condition perhaps because my slightly inconsistent sight alignment and/or sight picture would mask it. At any rate, as best as I can calculate a 10 mph no value up wind would be worth maybe 10 MOA at 1000 yards or 100 inches. I however have never shot in such conditions to have had a shot go anywhere that far off call. That’s shooting M118LR at 1000 yards using an MOA wind constant of 10 and the divergence between beginning zero and zero used does not indicate I am gaining or loosing elevation to wind. Certainly makes me wonder.
@charlesludwig9173 Yes you are 100%correct. The error was a data entry on the app I was using. Listed rifle zero was changed by 25yards. As you have mentioned no conditions would cause this much elevation change at this distance. This was explained earlier in the video 😁👍
Not much training needed, just 5 things: wind appraisal, determination of MOA wind constant at distance to calculate wind counter, co-sign for degree of slope to be able to adjust for flat ground distance to target, distance calculation via mil or MOA scale to understand bullet drop compensation needed via ballistics table for cartridge properties.
Yep that’s most of the basics, I also allowed for coriolis effect , Temperature etc.
To be honest mate I’ve never seen an accomplished shooter in competition or military say, “not much training needed “. You must be very good, but I find I do better when I’ve been training. Cheers.
@@controlledrecoil-nzhunting interestingly enough the knowledge of what’s important to Long Range shooting can be delivered in about a half day of classroom instruction. Skill development of course requires practice. For me to earn the American High Power Rifleman In Long-Range Award it took me about 3 seasons to get to 97+% average scores needed for the recognition, mostly about a princess and the pea sensitivity for NPA and consistent iron sight picture, as well as recognizing exacting wind counter for hits inside MOA or X-Ring at 1000 yards. So yeah if training is synonymous with practice then you are right on, even when shooting a cartridge that produces a very high MOA wind constant. BTW, the best long range shooter in NZ is Mitchell Maxberry. He was on the US Plalma Team, won the Wimbledon Cup, and is a High Master Long Range Competitor. He is a friend of mine and the only times I have beat him was when he did not show up.
Yes to me training / practice, I was meaning the same thing. I apologise for the misunderstanding.
All BS aside mate that’s very impressive, much respect , we could all learn a lot from you. 🫡 👍
It's not easyaz aye
Yeah it certainly takes a bit to get it all working well. Thanks again 👍👍
Well thats "pushing a little more than 550 yards" nek minit 😂 shot bro
Ha yeah little bit 😂 but you can’t wound a target. Would be a little too far for a shot on an animal. However it would certainly still kill if hit in the right place. Cheers mate 👍
Great video mate. You’re absolutely spot on with everything that you said in this video. And it’s really GREAT ADVICE for even very seasoned shooters to make sure that we all go through our D.O.P.E and data and make sure that everything is Trude and verified at distance. And I loved what you said about all these new calipers and barrel Lancs. For example you Scoota 65 PRC and drop your barrel length back from 24 to even 20 inches and all of a sudden you’re actually only shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor as far as velocity and energy on target is concerned. Love your work man.
Thanks mate. Yes that’s a good example with the 6,5 PRC . Great cartridge but suffers in a short barrel. Cheers 👍👍