Basically using the density of fluid to transfer cooling at the front of the vehicle to cooling at the intake of the engine. Much more thermal density (at whatever temperature) can be achieved in fluid and it also happens to be easy to plumb in small lines. But it's going to be more complex with a pump, two cores, fluid, and plumbing. Be interesting to see the actual NET result of air between the two systems, with all the statistics about core sizes and overall weight, ambient temps and intake temps. Would be quite a science project.
I have a newer BMW with the B58 engine and air-to-water cooler. I was so excited to get it. It performs great, response is awesome, and less to worry about when upgrading. Then at 1000 miles i noticed the aux coolant tank that supplies the cooler was dry. Come to find out BMW only put a level sensor in the main tank and not the aux tank. So I had no warning that it was dry outside of a forum thread where several people said they found theirs was empty. So I had my first dealer visit 3 months into ownership. Great idea. But it's always going to be a BMW.
The unfortunate reality of the B58/B48 motors is the radiator supplying the cooler is made of a material I can only describe as "tinfoil". This is mounted in front of the engine radiator and ends up like swiss cheese after the first shower of small rocks, leading to leaks in the system (and with no level measurement as you mention). Madness really. Also the efficiency of the water-air system on the B58/B48 is nowhere near as efficient as that of the S55 or S63 motors and tends to heatsoak rather rapidly with back to back pulls in even mild weather.
Yes, I'm aware of the sensor in engine cooling circuit, however the circuit cooling the intercooler is completely seperate from the engine cooling circuit, hence the two tanks and the issue when the radiator for the intercooler circuit is compromised.
For sure. I'm still not sure if it's actually a leak, or if it just wasn't filled properly at the factory. There's a growing thread on the Bimmerpost F30 Forum where people are discussing how they are going about getting it resolved.
This dude is amazing! He really knows how to simplify anything that’s automotive. I was trying to understand why a air to water intercooler uses a heat exchanger (I was confused thinking the heat exchanger was for the air also) then his video helped me understand the heat exchanger is for the coolant. Excellent video!
Er1323 If that was a criterion then we’d all still drive T-Fords. Modern cars are way more complicated then the ones from 30 years ago yet the service intervals have gone up to 20miles/30km.
I'm totally new to BMW engines & they've introduced me to the concept of air-to-water intercooling. I watched a video of Mat Armstrong BMW M5 rebuild & was fascinated by that engine. Up to now I've only known air-to-air intercooling. This video really broke it down for me & now I'm obsessed. Thanks so much for the info 👍🏽
In a performance setup, I would like a air-air intercooler with a nitrous sprayer that sprays onto the air to air intercooler core. NOT for power, but mainly to spray after a high speed run or only when the air intake hit a certain high temp. To do this, the intercooler would need an electronic "thermostat" using heat sensors that go to a nitrous spray "ecu". For example say air intake temps get to 300 degrees (hypothetical number) at the end of a 1/4 run on say, a Evo 8 running a g35 turbo. I wouldnt spray during the run (reduced a.i.t's can actually inadvertently raise boost pressure due to air density).. I would spray after the run to reduce air intake temps to say 180 degrees. Then spray once more right before the run to cool the intake to say 70 degrees right before the launch of the next run.
Also in performance applications you can run the coolant through a reservoir filled with ice after the radiator to get intake temperatures below ambient after compression, and make the ice last longer than just using the reservoir.
Great stuff Jason. I have not seen a better explanation of the differences. For me, I'd take the simplicity of the air-to-air intercooler. Coolant and cooling system failures can quickly lead to catastrophic consequences which I assume would be less so in terms of an intercooler, but still the potential for more coolant leaks alone is enough for me to avoid the system.
It’s not really heat cycling like engine coolant so the systems are pretty robust. Not to say it’s not a concern but systems like this have been around a while with little issues. Also the intercooler leak would have to be catastrophic to cause engine damage. A pin hole leak ingested into the intake wouldn’t be likely to affect the engine.
I was literally hoping to find a video from you while googling the differences and how air to water ICs work. Thank You for all the work you put into these videos!.
Do you have any data comparing the rate of energy transfer of the two designs? Which one is better at cooling intake air. Let’s say I was running 25psi if boost, which system would be better? What prevents the airy to water system from heat soaking like the air to air systems do?
no, the wrx uses ambient air to cool the top mount intercooler, but it does not have a second air to water ntercooler in the front of the engine, it is just one air to air intercooler located on top of the engine, also it uses a hood scoop to take in that air which the bmw just uses the air coming through the grille
Kudos for all your videos. Easy way to explain. Btw Something I am wondering about this. How come automakers haven’t used the air conditioning system for this. Instead of using the (in case of the water inter cooler) outside cooler use the a/c compressor to cool down the inner coil. And should be colder at all time. My two cents.
While it would improve volumetric efficiency at high temps, the AC compressor uses far more energy to drive than a small electric circulatory pump. That would render it pointless since the whole point of air-water intercoolers is power and efficiency.
For all the added complexity of air-to-liquid intercooling, they may as well just run plumbing to the trunk for an ice-tank and really get that air cooled off. Just run air-to-air with a front-mount water spray device to get temporary power increases by evaporative cooling of the external core surfaces.
@@EngineeringExplainedI've lived in Portland area since 81. I don't think I could ever live anywhere but the 4 NW states. Also...saw your CL post selling your Integra parts. For a second I thought I was in the twilight zone. Then realized it was real and I was under the influence of Cannabis. LOL. Hope you have a fantastic day and thanks for the great content.
The cool thing about air to water is that you can get an aftermarket setup to drop the coolant temps using the ac system. Puts more strain on the ac but temps are below ambient.
baaahaha, cause BMW cares about this? I have an EGR cooler on my M57, and I worry about this all the time (1st gens were known to fail in the EU, hydro-locking). also, (most) people who buy expensive BMW's don't care, because they are just gonna off them the 1st sign of any inconvenience/maintenance
Jason. I think you missed an important point about the duty cycle of the engine. High power road cars will require inter-cooling for short periods of time. In between those bursts of power, air coming off of the turbo will be cooler and help to cool both systems. Indirect water systems will heat up more slowly under power and cool more slowly when power is reduced. You can even use this approach to provide unvented inter-cooling. Essentially that would be a water intercooler without an external pump or radiator, but that would take longer to recover after a full power event. Love the channel.
I have a 21 supra with the same motor. It seems complicated but it actually simple. Your turbo air only travels about 3 feet total to get to the cylinders. In a FM intercooler it has to travel atleast double that. The charge pipe runs straight from the the turbos cold side outlet to the intake manifold. Pretty cool stuff. If you want to see the brilliant engineering behind the motor check out Stephen papadakis b58 tear down.
Good explanation, but there is also another advantage : the thermal inertia of water. In fact when the power needs are intermitent, not an oval track for exemple, you can aford a smaler pair of exchangers because the water can still be cooled when off-boost. A notable example is the second turbo version of the Lotus Esprit.
Thanks for video, I have 2 questions: 1- Did the restriction of an A-W vs A-A intercooler is lower (I want to reduce the restriction on my TDI to increase the fuel efficeincy in the same time). 2- If I use a bigger A-W intercooler is better or it have some drawback?. Thanks for the answer.
Good video but he Missed one major point. The heat capacity of fluid aka water is significantly higher than air as is the heat transfer function - aka the water to air is considerably more efficient and will allow for great HP gains. Air to air relies on the air to conduct the heat away ... and air by nature is an excellent insulator. Flies then to the number of fins on the exchanger and the velocity of air across said fins. Either drive faster or had fans but the air to air can only take out so much in a given period - dT/dt.... Good summary but it’s about the physics of the system - not the plumbing .... but it is more compact as noted. However with the VT - variable turbo technology, spool up is a thing of the past, if the turbo is properly matched Yes .... I am a Rocket Scientist... LOL !!
Could you please make an episode about water cooling turbo chargers in bmw and amg m-benz 63/v8 4.0l advantages... thanks the best and the only real engineering auto channel.
On a street car, for only 300hp is it worth it for the summer ? If I place the water radiator in the place of the original air to air intercooler ? Will it be more efficient ?
Question.... Which intercooler cools the intake charge the most effective? Only talking about increasing M.A.D. (Mass Air Density). Boost is pretty much out the door as it’s irrelevant without knowing MAD.
Yes that's why you can have a smaller air-to-water cooler do the same work that would typically need a larger air-to-air cooler. Also less pressure drop as pressurized air runs over it.
It's basically just another radiator system. The same reason why cars are water cooled now instead of how they used to be air-cooled. You run fluid through the heat source and then route it to a radiator to cool off the fluid.
As always, great explanation, but it was simple (you already got a video of intercoolers). Cloud you go more in depth between this two systems? I am about to make my STi water to air intercooler and there are things I don't know yet like: how fins (bars/plates or tubing) affect the water flow? How much is enough in terms of speed of the water flow in order to allow enough heat transfer? What is a good disign to avoid turbulence and not to get water stocked inside the system that affects heat transfer (like the effect inside the back box of a pickup truck)? Make sense what I'm asking?
Are there other readily-available liquid cooling mediums or straight up refrigerants that can cool off the air even better and more quickly than water?
Another disadvantage is that manufacturers use the same coolant as the engine. And not a different circuit. So in long travels the limit tends to 90° instead of ambiente temperature. Unfortunately that means a lot less efficient to cool down compressed intake air.
For those calling air-to-water an overly complicated system ; remember that is no-more complex than the Air-conditioner. A/C : there's a radiator in the front of your engine-bay, then fluid goes back to the radiator under your dash - soaking-up heat; then a compressor pushes it back to the front - no-one would call A/C complex or unreliable. And I have a Ford Kuga/Escape [intercooling in the manifold] : Lurv the short air-flow path and quick response!
I think water transfers heat 25 times faster than air. My Ea211 VAG engine has a water cooled intercooler. I've done 127,000 miles in it in 4.5 years, it's still a pleasure despite having a second car that's a lot faster. Thumbs up for this system.
I've always wondered if you fed the air intake behind the intercooler. The air would pass quicker through the intercooler creating greater cooling, but it doesn't get much hotter than ambient air at the intake because of the speed it passes through the intercooler to get into the air intake. Thoughts?
Now that a/c compressors don't suck huge amounts of power any more, I wonder if that will become viable - to use the a/c system to chill the exchanger in the intake manifold instead of water. We already have a compressor and a heat exchanger behind the grille for the regular a/c system...would just need a little more plumbing. Thoughts?
Yeah. I was thinking more of cycling the a/c to set a constant intake temp, rather than chilling the intake, then turning it off for max power in a short burst. But I can't see why it wouldn't work, unless the a/c takes more power than the cooling effect would give back - and it should be cheaper, and would make for a more compact setup in cars where underhood space is at a premium.
sounds good in writing , but in the summer when you need the cooling the most , your also gonna want to run your AC in you cabin , so you either will need to double your compressor size to handle the load , or sacrifice comfort. i don't see away around it.
As a PC enthusiast, this isn't really a whole lot different than using just a plain all-metal heatsink vs liquid cooling: the main benefit of using liquid cooling is that it more quickly removes heat away from the heat source (the processor), but, it is relatively inefficient. Liquid cooling doesn't necessarily mean the total cooling capacity is improved (that ultimately depends on the radiator) but since you're able to "spread out" the heat away from the CPU, that allows it to work harder without heating up as much.
So you're cooling the air in the intake...what happens to the moisture the hot air let's go of when it's cooled? Condensation on the intercooler has no where to go except through the engine....??
Doesn't that happens with the air to air intercooler anyways? Probably is not a big deal. There are are cars who even inject water to the intake on purpose to reduce ajr temps so...
You mentioned the air to air would cool to ambient while air to water would be higher. In practice, this is not the case. Air to air is typically 30+ degrees over ambient while air to water is only slightly above ambient as it has 2 heat exchangers plus the intercooler.
It is a very good explanation as usual from you great job on that. But really? is it really as good as it is complicated?. So basically between the amg hot v air to water and the bmw air to water which one is best and more practical??
I’m told with Modern day Cars like this BMW that you don’t really need a warm up and cool down for the turbo .... Is this True ? I’ve notice on the BMW manual that they recommend a moderate driving for a little insignificant time but no need for a cool down . How does this work ? Is it due to the fact that the turbos now have water cooling which continues to run even after the engine is turned off ?
with additional weight, less efficiency, and also possibility of so many things that can go wrong, pump stop working, leaking outside, leaking in the manifold and coolant sucked in by engine, etc
Hope your checking older comments - has anyone ever attempted to build an ammonia intercooler? Like Keg coolers or RV refrigerators? These uses a small heat source which could be pulled from the turbo it’s self (maybe?)
I believe air to water is more efficient at removing heat when ambient temps are high. I have an BMW M2 s55 engine with air to water intercooler and I never had any heat soak issues when pushing hard in high ambient temps. When an N55 M2 is pushed in high ambient temps you get heat soak issues due to the air to air intercooler. Plus the M2 air to water inter poker sits ontop of the engine and is not integrated into the manifold. Bmw did this because it reduces more heat than typical air to air system.
What are the chances of significant reduced efficiency from heat soak in the air-to-water after extended periods? Does the 2nd intercooler cool the water that much
Seems like you'd have a lot of heat soak in the B58 intake once the engine was up to temperature, effectively reducing the advantage of the shorter distance the air travels from the turbo to the engine. I guess additional power wasn't as big of a concern as reduced lag and improved drive-ability. With less lag to worry about now BMW drivers can concentrate even more on not using their turn signals.
I realize this is an older video but I have a serious question regarding the heat exchanger. If I'm not mistaken, the heat exchanger for the X3 M40i is located on the right side of the front bumper behind the grill. The grill is open to allow airflow. My question is, what problems if any exist if that opening in the bumper is blocked off and not allowing air to the heat exchanger. I ask because BMW is currently shipping X3, X4, X5, and X7 models that are equipped with the heat exhanger(sometimes one on both sides) that are completely blocked off from any airflow. They are aware of the problem but have chosen to ignore it in order to ship quantity not quality.
Relocate the heat exchanger, or cut the bumper plastic nicely and with precision, then install new custom mesh grill, with fasteners, and it's done, you got better cooling.
This sistem has another coolant tank, or is using the engine coolant? Is this more efficient than the A-A intercooler? This efficiency difference explains the bigger manufacturing costs?
Im trying to do a water to air system (no ice), but Im afraid the performance will not be better than an air to air. What do you suggest? Wich system can get me more whp? Wich system will suffer less from heat soak?
BMW has an electric water pump for the air to water intercooler. So under light engine loads the water pump is off meaning that the water in the heat exchanger is not circulating and is at ambient temperature. When you have a high demand for power, the electric water pump in the air to water intercooler circuit turns on and flushes the manifold heat exchanger with the cool water that was sitting in the front heat exchanger to give you more power under load.
With all the metal 3D printing we have today, wouldn't it make sense to also cool the compressor part of the turbo with water? Maybe the hot water coming from the out of the intercooler on it's way to the heat exchanger...
I will browse your other videos of course, but... Even though i watch them all, i dont really know much (compared to most of the viewers) about engineering. So, the question : why an intercooler ? Is it the fact that the turbo turbine, in compressing the air, makes it super hot, and less effective (less dense) that ambient air ? Does an intercooler use some kind of phase exchange to cool the air ? ( i know it works in liquids, but does it with air?) tyvm all
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So the air to water system has an intercooler for your intercooler. Got it
yo dawg...
Adam Adam very good way to put it
@@nickf1724
I believe in being succinct
+Adam Adam Explains the name bro :D
Basically using the density of fluid to transfer cooling at the front of the vehicle to cooling at the intake of the engine. Much more thermal density (at whatever temperature) can be achieved in fluid and it also happens to be easy to plumb in small lines. But it's going to be more complex with a pump, two cores, fluid, and plumbing.
Be interesting to see the actual NET result of air between the two systems, with all the statistics about core sizes and overall weight, ambient temps and intake temps. Would be quite a science project.
Theres a different sized white board for all occasions
I have a newer BMW with the B58 engine and air-to-water cooler. I was so excited to get it. It performs great, response is awesome, and less to worry about when upgrading.
Then at 1000 miles i noticed the aux coolant tank that supplies the cooler was dry. Come to find out BMW only put a level sensor in the main tank and not the aux tank. So I had no warning that it was dry outside of a forum thread where several people said they found theirs was empty. So I had my first dealer visit 3 months into ownership.
Great idea. But it's always going to be a BMW.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
The unfortunate reality of the B58/B48 motors is the radiator supplying the cooler is made of a material I can only describe as "tinfoil". This is mounted in front of the engine radiator and ends up like swiss cheese after the first shower of small rocks, leading to leaks in the system (and with no level measurement as you mention). Madness really.
Also the efficiency of the water-air system on the B58/B48 is nowhere near as efficient as that of the S55 or S63 motors and tends to heatsoak rather rapidly with back to back pulls in even mild weather.
Yes, I'm aware of the sensor in engine cooling circuit, however the circuit cooling the intercooler is completely seperate from the engine cooling circuit, hence the two tanks and the issue when the radiator for the intercooler circuit is compromised.
For sure. I'm still not sure if it's actually a leak, or if it just wasn't filled properly at the factory. There's a growing thread on the Bimmerpost F30 Forum where people are discussing how they are going about getting it resolved.
Bestwick1983 s55/s63 have duel heat exchangers compared to one on the b58/48.
Jason said 36 times "cool" and the video is 280 seconds long
That gives about one "cool" per 7.8 second
So I can say it is
a very *_cool_* video
This video is intercooled.
you have way too much time on your hands...
"im not in my bed room... Im outside! I did it mom!"
Ahh good for u
*cries in the corner of his bedroom*
I think is easier to design engine room without air to air piping that takes a lot of space and maybe cheaper.
🤣😂
Hahaha i really laughed at that one
I am not in my bedroom... but someone elses.
*I did it mom !*.
Pure gold right there.
One can only dream to do the same
I was worried about the whiteboard for a second there...
But Jason always has one with him 😎
This dude is amazing! He really knows how to simplify anything that’s automotive. I was trying to understand why a air to water intercooler uses a heat exchanger (I was confused thinking the heat exchanger was for the air also) then his video helped me understand the heat exchanger is for the coolant. Excellent video!
Happy to help, glad you enjoyed the video!
You got a like from me purely for the "I did it Mom" statement.
That is some beautiful scenery in the background
Lolo Pass Rd, Oregon.
So, more that can break down. Great!
Er1323 The B58 actually is a really good engine … so far no Big Problems
Er1323 If that was a criterion then we’d all still drive T-Fords.
Modern cars are way more complicated then the ones from 30 years ago yet the service intervals have gone up to 20miles/30km.
But we can't deny that eventough modern automobiles is complex in design and tech, it also more easy and pleasant to use
@@Conservator. criterion. Criterium is a bicycle race.
Saurabh Kulkarni Thank you 🙏! Corrected
I'm totally new to BMW engines & they've introduced me to the concept of air-to-water intercooling.
I watched a video of Mat Armstrong BMW M5 rebuild & was fascinated by that engine.
Up to now I've only known air-to-air intercooling.
This video really broke it down for me & now I'm obsessed.
Thanks so much for the info 👍🏽
In a performance setup, I would like a air-air intercooler with a nitrous sprayer that sprays onto the air to air intercooler core. NOT for power, but mainly to spray after a high speed run or only when the air intake hit a certain high temp. To do this, the intercooler would need an electronic "thermostat" using heat sensors that go to a nitrous spray "ecu".
For example say air intake temps get to 300 degrees (hypothetical number) at the end of a 1/4 run on say, a Evo 8 running a g35 turbo. I wouldnt spray during the run (reduced a.i.t's can actually inadvertently raise boost pressure due to air density).. I would spray after the run to reduce air intake temps to say 180 degrees. Then spray once more right before the run to cool the intake to say 70 degrees right before the launch of the next run.
Also in performance applications you can run the coolant through a reservoir filled with ice after the radiator to get intake temperatures below ambient after compression, and make the ice last longer than just using the reservoir.
i had this car for a few days to try, and i have to say i absolutely loved every minute of is
It's good to see you remake old videos!! It was needed to be honest! You are much more experienced now regarding TH-cam.
I am also a student in Auto field but . Follow your videos to improve our knowledge
Great stuff Jason. I have not seen a better explanation of the differences. For me, I'd take the simplicity of the air-to-air intercooler. Coolant and cooling system failures can quickly lead to catastrophic consequences which I assume would be less so in terms of an intercooler, but still the potential for more coolant leaks alone is enough for me to avoid the system.
It’s not really heat cycling like engine coolant so the systems are pretty robust. Not to say it’s not a concern but systems like this have been around a while with little issues. Also the intercooler leak would have to be catastrophic to cause engine damage. A pin hole leak ingested into the intake wouldn’t be likely to affect the engine.
I was literally hoping to find a video from you while googling the differences and how air to water ICs work. Thank You for all the work you put into these videos!.
Do you have any data comparing the rate of energy transfer of the two designs? Which one is better at cooling intake air. Let’s say I was running 25psi if boost, which system would be better? What prevents the airy to water system from heat soaking like the air to air systems do?
Intercooler on top of the engine. Is that the Subaru Impreza WRX kind of placement?
no, the wrx uses ambient air to cool the top mount intercooler, but it does not have a second air to water ntercooler in the front of the engine, it is just one air to air intercooler located on top of the engine, also it uses a hood scoop to take in that air which the bmw just uses the air coming through the grille
I mean the air to air intercooler
Yes, that's the car I thought of too when he mentioned that location.
@@nickf1724 he's referring to location placement
RX-7 Turbo IIs have that placement
Yo dawg, I heard you liked cooling stuff, so I used an intercooler to cool your intercooler so you can cool your intercooler while you cool your air
No, I have no questions, because that was very clear explanations, thank you.
Kudos for all your videos. Easy way to explain.
Btw
Something I am wondering about this. How come automakers haven’t used the air conditioning system for this. Instead of using the (in case of the water inter cooler) outside cooler use the a/c compressor to cool down the inner coil. And should be colder at all time. My two cents.
While it would improve volumetric efficiency at high temps, the AC compressor uses far more energy to drive than a small electric circulatory pump. That would render it pointless since the whole point of air-water intercoolers is power and efficiency.
For all the added complexity of air-to-liquid intercooling, they may as well just run plumbing to the trunk for an ice-tank and really get that air cooled off.
Just run air-to-air with a front-mount water spray device to get temporary power increases by evaporative cooling of the external core surfaces.
Keeping that much water is not convenient. This system you don't need to refill or keep adding like yours would.
Look at that NW view!
FANTASTIC.
Much like your videos.
😉
Best place ever! ☺️
@@EngineeringExplainedI've lived in Portland area since 81. I don't think I could ever live anywhere but the 4 NW states.
Also...saw your CL post selling your Integra parts. For a second I thought I was in the twilight zone. Then realized it was real and I was under the influence of Cannabis.
LOL. Hope you have a fantastic day and thanks for the great content.
The vids just keep getting better! I was almost worried about a lack of diagrams lol. Great explanation as always!
Keep white board wherever you are with u so we can catch up🍅what you explaining❤️
What is this *outside* you speak of?
Hooray for the B58 engine!
Interesting info. I came here because the new Mazda3 turbo was just announced to have a water to air system. Thanks!
The cool thing about air to water is that you can get an aftermarket setup to drop the coolant temps using the ac system. Puts more strain on the ac but temps are below ambient.
I wonder what actions are taken to avoid hydrolock in case of a leak?
baaahaha, cause BMW cares about this? I have an EGR cooler on my M57, and I worry about this all the time (1st gens were known to fail in the EU, hydro-locking).
also, (most) people who buy expensive BMW's don't care, because they are just gonna off them the 1st sign of any inconvenience/maintenance
Prevent leaks through solid design!
then dont buy BMW
@@EngineeringExplained they haven't had a solid design in at least 20 years 🤣
@@EngineeringExplained If it's as solid as the wastegate rattle on my N54 then is all good! 😂
An inherently complicated system on top of it being a BMW? Ohh man that thing's gonna be good friends with the dealership service department.
"I did it mom!"
Classic.
nice video, but a good question would be - is the extra complexity worth that volume reduction?
As usual short and to the point packed with relevant information. Awesome all the way around!!!
Jason. I think you missed an important point about the duty cycle of the engine. High power road cars will require inter-cooling for short periods of time. In between those bursts of power, air coming off of the turbo will be cooler and help to cool both systems. Indirect water systems will heat up more slowly under power and cool more slowly when power is reduced. You can even use this approach to provide unvented inter-cooling. Essentially that would be a water intercooler without an external pump or radiator, but that would take longer to recover after a full power event. Love the channel.
Hey good video! Just to clear something up for me: the coolant in the water cooled intercooler is not the same coolant cooling the engine, right?
Another quality, short and informative vid thank you!
thanks for watching!
I am now off to binge watch your videos!
I have a 21 supra with the same motor. It seems complicated but it actually simple. Your turbo air only travels about 3 feet total to get to the cylinders. In a FM intercooler it has to travel atleast double that. The charge pipe runs straight from the the turbos cold side outlet to the intake manifold. Pretty cool stuff. If you want to see the brilliant engineering behind the motor check out Stephen papadakis b58 tear down.
That devious smirk, when he says " And don't think I forgot my whiteboard" !
Great engineering, better explanation.
I love numbers too. Some numbers that would be nice are expected additional cost and what kind of lag reduction or power boost would be typical.
Good explanation, but there is also another advantage : the thermal inertia of water. In fact when the power needs are intermitent, not an oval track for exemple, you can aford a smaler pair of exchangers because the water can still be cooled when off-boost. A notable example is the second turbo version of the Lotus Esprit.
EE channel is awesome. wow.
Thank god you remembered the white board. I was worried this would be a bunch of stuff I would only begin to understand otherwise.
Thanks for video, I have 2 questions: 1- Did the restriction of an A-W vs A-A intercooler is lower (I want to reduce the restriction on my TDI to increase the fuel efficeincy in the same time). 2- If I use a bigger A-W intercooler is better or it have some drawback?. Thanks for the answer.
Good video but he Missed one major point.
The heat capacity of fluid aka water is significantly higher than air as is the heat transfer function - aka the water to air is considerably more efficient and will allow for great HP gains. Air to air relies on the air to conduct the heat away ... and air by nature is an excellent insulator. Flies then to the number of fins on the exchanger and the velocity of air across said fins. Either drive faster or had fans but the air to air can only take out so much in a given period - dT/dt....
Good summary but it’s about the physics of the system - not the plumbing .... but it is more compact as noted. However with the VT - variable turbo technology, spool up is a thing of the past, if the turbo is properly matched
Yes .... I am a Rocket Scientist... LOL !!
Could you please make an episode about water cooling turbo chargers in bmw and amg m-benz 63/v8 4.0l advantages... thanks the best and the only real engineering auto channel.
On a street car, for only 300hp is it worth it for the summer ? If I place the water radiator in the place of the original air to air intercooler ?
Will it be more efficient ?
Question....
Which intercooler cools the intake charge the most effective? Only talking about increasing M.A.D. (Mass Air Density). Boost is pretty much out the door as it’s irrelevant without knowing MAD.
which is more efficient for street/track? Does the water cooler have a benefit for stop and go traffic situations?
Isn't the water to air intercooler more efficient cuz the water can absorb and dissipate more heat from the charged air than air to air intercooler?
Yes that's why you can have a smaller air-to-water cooler do the same work that would typically need a larger air-to-air cooler. Also less pressure drop as pressurized air runs over it.
I was thinking it worked like the A/C system. With a compressor and evaporator valve.
The heat exchanger for the intake air is, but it's less efficient overall.
you're not going to get the air colder than the water? especially if its in the same circuit as engine coolant?
It's basically just another radiator system. The same reason why cars are water cooled now instead of how they used to be air-cooled. You run fluid through the heat source and then route it to a radiator to cool off the fluid.
As always, great explanation, but it was simple (you already got a video of intercoolers). Cloud you go more in depth between this two systems? I am about to make my STi water to air intercooler and there are things I don't know yet like: how fins (bars/plates or tubing) affect the water flow? How much is enough in terms of speed of the water flow in order to allow enough heat transfer? What is a good disign to avoid turbulence and not to get water stocked inside the system that affects heat transfer (like the effect inside the back box of a pickup truck)? Make sense what I'm asking?
Are there other readily-available liquid cooling mediums or straight up refrigerants that can cool off the air even better and more quickly than water?
Another disadvantage is that manufacturers use the same coolant as the engine. And not a different circuit. So in long travels the limit tends to 90° instead of ambiente temperature.
Unfortunately that means a lot less efficient to cool down compressed intake air.
they don't. there's a second cooling circuit for the intercooler. B38/48/58 engines are designed for intake temperatures of 50 °C at rated power.
@@KropfkraenklerNo1 you are probably right. That should be right. But I neve saw that second intercooler under the hood of my car....
Hey EE, can you please make a video about Wavy brakes and their pros and cons?
For those calling air-to-water an overly complicated system ; remember that is no-more complex than the Air-conditioner.
A/C : there's a radiator in the front of your engine-bay, then fluid goes back to the radiator under your dash - soaking-up heat; then a compressor pushes it back to the front - no-one would call A/C complex or unreliable.
And I have a Ford Kuga/Escape [intercooling in the manifold] : Lurv the short air-flow path and quick response!
So which one is better? They both have distinct advantages and disadvantages, but which one performs the best?
I think water transfers heat 25 times faster than air. My Ea211 VAG engine has a water cooled intercooler. I've done 127,000 miles in it in 4.5 years, it's still a pleasure despite having a second car that's a lot faster. Thumbs up for this system.
I've always wondered if you fed the air intake behind the intercooler. The air would pass quicker through the intercooler creating greater cooling, but it doesn't get much hotter than ambient air at the intake because of the speed it passes through the intercooler to get into the air intake.
Thoughts?
Now that a/c compressors don't suck huge amounts of power any more, I wonder if that will become viable - to use the a/c system to chill the exchanger in the intake manifold instead of water. We already have a compressor and a heat exchanger behind the grille for the regular a/c system...would just need a little more plumbing.
Thoughts?
The Dodge Demon does this already, for drag racing purposes. But it it's only a short time thing, not constantly.
Yeah. I was thinking more of cycling the a/c to set a constant intake temp, rather than chilling the intake, then turning it off for max power in a short burst. But I can't see why it wouldn't work, unless the a/c takes more power than the cooling effect would give back - and it should be cheaper, and would make for a more compact setup in cars where underhood space is at a premium.
sounds good in writing , but in the summer when you need the cooling the most , your also gonna want to run your AC in you cabin , so you either will need to double your compressor size to handle the load , or sacrifice comfort. i don't see away around it.
I think this is already out there, I assume they call it "killer chiller" or something like that.
That might make a good video... why doesn't a/c affect power as much nowadays?
"Just because Im outside doesnt mean i forgot my white board" 😂😂 i love you man
As a PC enthusiast, this isn't really a whole lot different than using just a plain all-metal heatsink vs liquid cooling: the main benefit of using liquid cooling is that it more quickly removes heat away from the heat source (the processor), but, it is relatively inefficient. Liquid cooling doesn't necessarily mean the total cooling capacity is improved (that ultimately depends on the radiator) but since you're able to "spread out" the heat away from the CPU, that allows it to work harder without heating up as much.
i usually hear manual gearbox are better for towing, is it because of the torque converter? we can have a video on the subject
;)
Nice explanation, thanks!
Who here thoght n55 vs b58 when they saw this before even playing this?
Almost at 2 mil subs! =)
So you're cooling the air in the intake...what happens to the moisture the hot air let's go of when it's cooled? Condensation on the intercooler has no where to go except through the engine....??
Doesn't that happens with the air to air intercooler anyways? Probably is not a big deal. There are are cars who even inject water to the intake on purpose to reduce ajr temps so...
You mentioned the air to air would cool to ambient while air to water would be higher.
In practice, this is not the case. Air to air is typically 30+ degrees over ambient while air to water is only slightly above ambient as it has 2 heat exchangers plus the intercooler.
your explanation is quite good but you r not showing the parts separately if u show it that's much more better any way I like it👍
It is a very good explanation as usual from you great job on that. But really? is it really as good as it is complicated?. So basically between the amg hot v air to water and the bmw air to water which one is best and more practical??
“I did it Mom!” + portable whiteboard = great video 😂👍
I’m told with Modern day Cars like this BMW that you don’t really need a warm up and cool down for the turbo .... Is this True ? I’ve notice on the BMW manual that they recommend a moderate driving for a little insignificant time but no need for a cool down . How does this work ? Is it due to the fact that the turbos now have water cooling which continues to run even after the engine is turned off ?
with additional weight, less efficiency, and also possibility of so many things that can go wrong,
pump stop working, leaking outside, leaking in the manifold and coolant sucked in by engine, etc
Please make a video about hybrid system of Koenigsegg Regera which is 800 volt instead of traditional 400v.
Does adding an additional intercooler adds more air cooling efficiency?
Can u do a review of the cars u used for each engineering explained video. Like the old days. Give us its engineering feats. Like the Type R one.
Hope your checking older comments - has anyone ever attempted to build an ammonia intercooler? Like Keg coolers or RV refrigerators? These uses a small heat source which could be pulled from the turbo it’s self (maybe?)
Not sure, interesting idea!
Jason, what happen if the water can be cooled down below ambient temperature?
I was expecting you would explain core sizes vs flow restrictions and efficiency compared to a regular intercooler.
Can you make a video on rear mounted turbos?
Can you do a video on Top mounted intercooler vs Front mounted intercooler
I believe air to water is more efficient at removing heat when ambient temps are high. I have an BMW M2 s55 engine with air to water intercooler and I never had any heat soak issues when pushing hard in high ambient temps. When an N55 M2 is pushed in high ambient temps you get heat soak issues due to the air to air intercooler. Plus the M2 air to water inter poker sits ontop of the engine and is not integrated into the manifold. Bmw did this because it reduces more heat than typical air to air system.
I guess the whole point is quicker throttle response. You can get the same results with the latest borg warner or garret turbo.
What are the chances of significant reduced efficiency from heat soak in the air-to-water after extended periods? Does the 2nd intercooler cool the water that much
So, that was your emergency/spare white board? Do you carry it everywhere to explain engineering on the fly?
Seems like you'd have a lot of heat soak in the B58 intake once the engine was up to temperature, effectively reducing the advantage of the shorter distance the air travels from the turbo to the engine. I guess additional power wasn't as big of a concern as reduced lag and improved drive-ability. With less lag to worry about now BMW drivers can concentrate even more on not using their turn signals.
I realize this is an older video but I have a serious question regarding the heat exchanger. If I'm not mistaken, the heat exchanger for the X3 M40i is located on the right side of the front bumper behind the grill. The grill is open to allow airflow. My question is, what problems if any exist if that opening in the bumper is blocked off and not allowing air to the heat exchanger. I ask because BMW is currently shipping X3, X4, X5, and X7 models that are equipped with the heat exhanger(sometimes one on both sides) that are completely blocked off from any airflow. They are aware of the problem but have chosen to ignore it in order to ship quantity not quality.
Relocate the heat exchanger, or cut the bumper plastic nicely and with precision, then install new custom mesh grill, with fasteners, and it's done, you got better cooling.
Very very helpful, thank you.. love the show
How feasible to use a compressor and freon and run that through the intercooler vs cooling water with ambient air?
This sistem has another coolant tank, or is using the engine coolant? Is this more efficient than the A-A intercooler? This efficiency difference explains the bigger manufacturing costs?
I would have thought that thought air to liquid was more efficient. didn't thought about exchanging air twice. Very interesting.
Im trying to do a water to air system (no ice), but Im afraid the performance will not be better than an air to air.
What do you suggest?
Wich system can get me more whp?
Wich system will suffer less from heat soak?
very good explanatory video
BMW has an electric water pump for the air to water intercooler. So under light engine loads the water pump is off meaning that the water in the heat exchanger is not circulating and is at ambient temperature. When you have a high demand for power, the electric water pump in the air to water intercooler circuit turns on and flushes the manifold heat exchanger with the cool water that was sitting in the front heat exchanger to give you more power under load.
With all the metal 3D printing we have today, wouldn't it make sense to also cool the compressor part of the turbo with water? Maybe the hot water coming from the out of the intercooler on it's way to the heat exchanger...
You should make a video explaining if Bestline engine lubricant can do as claimed at 200% + to see if that protection is a gimmic...
your videos are always great!!! thanks
I will browse your other videos of course, but... Even though i watch them all, i dont really know much (compared to most of the viewers) about engineering. So, the question : why an intercooler ? Is it the fact that the turbo turbine, in compressing the air, makes it super hot, and less effective (less dense) that ambient air ? Does an intercooler use some kind of phase exchange to cool the air ? ( i know it works in liquids, but does it with air?) tyvm all