👨🔧 Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all-inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/offery181 ✊50% OFF your first online engine building course. Enrol now: hpcdmy.co/offery181 Welcome back to you subbed fellas and fellaesses! Hope you enjoy this one 😎 Have a pretty awesome 180SX build lined up for the next release too - Taz.
Tho I agree I get why it's a little high level for average joe car guys. Bet this channel has the most informed subscribers even if it doesn't have the most
We did a series on our handle of twin intercooling , starting with White Zombie , devil speeding. Its a three video series. It makes a massive difference. Thanks for your videos and info!
5:20 - wouldn't the fins actually accelerate the air volocity passing through because the fins would reduce the 'void' in the cross section for the air? However, having the fins will make a huge difference in the surface area exposed to the moving air, and that would be responsible for the actual cooling improvement?
That’s what I’m thinking. Fins are meant to increase surface area not slow down the air flow. Air speed might be faster but I don’t think the difference of air speed is significant.
If tube and fin it must have a protective small mesh grill. It is lighter but bar and plate is heavier but more durable from road debris, acts as a heat sink dissipating heat. Air foils will help concentrate colder ambient air to the intercooler core. My question, is a thicker core better than a larger front surface area in a core? I want to have a 5” thick core. With a larger front surface area air foil directer inside the end tanks will help distribute the cold air from top to bottom of the intercooler core. Also like you said very dense fins for an ic core can cause backpressure to the turbo as well as inhibit air flow to a radiator and a/c condenser behind the ic core. For gravel rally racing a bar and fin core would be more suitable due to the road debris hitting the core. For street and road racing a tube and fin may be more suitable.
If it has the same cross-section, the larger frontal area and shallower depth will be expected to be more efficient for charge cooling. The front row has the biggest delta in temperature as it is getting ambient, as the cooling air passed through the rows it picks up heat energy and the 'delta gradient is reduced, the more rows the less effective the last one will be. On the other hand, a large front area has a much larger mass of cooling air passing through it to absorb the heat, and fewer rows so their average delta will be greater. You may see some installations where the charge cooler (or radiator) is inclined to give a greater area to the matrix. Same principle applies with liquid to air radiators.
they are the same He forgot too mention the disadvantages in bar and plate are made up with slow heating obviously anything that “takes long too cool (the extra mass) has a flip side being it takes long too warm up. Bar-plate suits a street car as plenty of cool down time is available AND longer cool temperatures when booting it Tube-fin better for circuit, better (with) high speed cooling
agree 100%, Bar and plate has been better in my experience for the street, being it is well designed with a high flow core. Really, tube and fin/ bar and plate made well are leaps and bounds better than the OEM intercoolers especially when you run higher boost applications. I have a CTS bar and plate intercooler for my audi S3 and it has been amazing with dissipating heat for extended times in the Deep South where I live. I have never once had my CTS intercooler truly heat soaked. My car just keeps pulling time and time again hard in the heat, the outlet temps remain with 10 degrees of ambient.
Is there any gain or loss to intercooler performance if they are painted black? There are rumors of better heat dissipation from the black painted coolers. Im more interested in aesthetics of a black cooler.
Why is the green sport core so little used? The cores of this company were bought by ARC. How do these cores cope with the cooling of streams?Compared to other forms of coolers.
Not sure if my question will be answered here.. if I drive in stop and go traffic Tube and Fin vs Bar and Plate How long and at what speeds before the IAT post intercooler drop to non heat soaked levels(below 55c or 130F, with over 40c or 105f ambient)?
To get the lowest restriction possible it would make sense to have a much shorter but wider core with wide end tanks, similar to OEM Subaru STI ICs. Is it only a matter of packaging that vs. a standard "long core" setup, or are there other aspects that you sacrifice as well doing it this way?
@@Onewheelordeal Yes but at the same time the air is passing the same area of metal. And a longer core will start to heat soak in the second half of it so gets less effective anyway. I belive that just comparing core size, the variant I propose is better at the balance of heat exhange and pressure drop. But large end tanks is also taking space that could be used for increased core size instead.
@@bingoberra18 Exactly, I'm quite surprised that no-one seems to have started making trapezium/trapezoid matrix to maximise the area in restrictive places.
@@Onewheelordeal apparently the vast bulk of heat transfer occurs within the first 3rd of the core, which is why very long intercoolers with few rows are less than ideal
Outside of a little discussion on the SR86 build (I think) we do not. I'll note it down for Andre, but also worth thinking about how the ducting is probably going to be more of an importance here than just if you are running vertical or horizontal alone, which then also comes down to how much room you have to work with/packaging. You can also chat directly to your supplier about things like this before you purchase. They will know all the right questions to ask to help you figure things out, and you can talk to a few chaps to make sure you're getting the same answers as you find your feet with it all - Taz.
@@hpa101 I worked with a world leading supplier and the core they sold me can't handle 475bhp, let alone the 700bhp it was supposedly rated for. Looking to learn how to size vertical flow intercoolers before I trust them to redesign again. Can VE differences between engines account for differences in power ratings for intercoolers? Similar sized cores for K series engines are rated for 700hp.
Funny how those tube and fin ones from plazmaman aren't even close in fine count to a threadstone. They honelsty are a bit closer to a ebay deal then the latter. End tanks are really nice looking but I just can't see them working at the same level at all. Nothing compares to a garrett core.
I have had a garret core which was 2 76mm cores together making a larged stepped core. I then got a Plazmanan tube and fin which was smaller. The Plazmaman ran cooler iat and did not heat soak like the garrett core. And Plazmaman was half the weght.
Might be a pretty dumb question. But I own a vw golf r. Live down south in Texas and Temps are already reaching 110 degrees before the middle of June. Running it stock, but seriously looking into an aftermarket inter cooler to ideally improve overall reliability and better thermal management. I’ve been interested in the integrated engineering intercooler. I notice it claims to be a “bar and fin” combination. I was wondering if this is sort of a hybrid of the two designs mentioned here? If so I’m curious if you or anyone in the comments here has any thoughts on that design? Great video!
ARC brand from Japan...they used to sell cooling fins with thermal paste to stick them over or on things to rid of heat soak ...they also made some intercoolers you guys ever compared them to plazaman
backpressure/ more internal fins the better it exchanges but the more it backs up the engine . if its a turbo and not a great choice of turbo then every psi drop through the IC and IC piping amounts to almost 2 in the exhaust . this is the bit people dont grasp/ basically the bar plate is the better choice there but it has to be physically larger to amount to the same amount of cooling but at less pressure drop
Yup, they might be right depending on your application. I think the biggest point you can take away from chats like this is that nothing is simply 'better', you just have options that have their own pros and cons which you need to consider for your own build regardless of what suits others doing something different are using. Talking to your parts suppliers to help you figure this out is a great way to generally see what details you need to provide to do this. Note we have only talked about 2 types of intercoolers here, there are more. This might also be helpful: www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/235-choosing-an-intercooler-for-your-build/? Cheers - Taz.
We've talked to them before too I'm pretty sure, might be on the RaceCraft channel. We're brand agnostic, there are a lot of smart people out there doing great things across the industry 😎 - Taz.
A2W I would think is for short term cooling requirements like drag racing where they usually put ice in it to maximize the cooling of the charge air. I would think it’s not suitable for road racing or street applications where an air to air is going to be more efficient in longer durations.
@@weduhpeople8504 the only part of that which I can agree on that there is additional weight and packaging requirements for a water/air intercooler system. Most of the "air/water vs air/air" comparisons you'll see will be showing a fairly optimised air/air system (since the tech is basic and well understood) compared to an air/water system with a hopelessly undersized charge-air cooler, tiny front-mount heat exchanger (Less than 1/4 the size of the air/air unit) and a water pump that barely flows 5gpm through the system. The ability for water to absorb and dissipate heat is 4x that of air in a 1:1 comparison by mass, and for circuit/road racing an air/water system has way more potential when optimised. As a cherry on top, when you consider the option to run an A/C unit like an interchiller to make the water run at sub-ambient (and sometimes sub-freezing) temperatures. The advantage is clear. Air/water all the way!
@@jacksonjdr94 A water chiller would be crazy to run, cooling down 10 kg water that constantly soaks up heat. 10-20 hp would be needed to keep the temperature down for longer then 1 drag run at the time. Designing a better turbo system would be preferable before talking about water chilled intercooler. Also the hose routing would be annoying because almost no one wants extra weight dangling infront of the wheels, so things needs to go into cabin or boot.
@@larsjrgensen5975 AC chilled water/air systems can work exceptionally well and achieve IAT readings **way** below ambient. The dodge demon comes with this type of system from factory. There are quite a few videos on TH-cam exhibiting the cooling capacity of the FI Interchiller. One of the more recent ones shows a vehicle idling on a 41c (106f) day in australia with IAT readings of 12c (53f). There's also videos of vehicles on the dyno comparing using water at ambient temp to chilled water and the power gains are usually in the 50-100rwhp range through the entire curve. And an AC pump uses zero horsepower when it's disengaged. So you wouldn't run the AC pump when going down the drag strip, you'd use pre-chilled water from the reservoir. A road race car would be a different story, you'd calibrate your engine management to engage the clutch on the AC when the temp of the water in the reservoir reaches a certain mark. Being able to reduce intake air temp below ambient and keep it cool is just a win in every possible way, it can save hours on the dyno and ultimately make for a more reliable boosted motor. Heat-soak is one of the most challenging issues a tuner has to face, as it can vary widely from dyno conditions to real-world racing conditions. These systems provide a tuner with something that an air/air system never can. Consistency and repeatability with an active system to keep intake air temps in check!
So this interviewer claims he has tested finned vs Chinese intercoolers and found a 66.6 hp advantage to finns over Chinese. I am certain the finned cooler will be better but if its 66.6hp better then how much was the engine making - before and after.
I'd love to see a feature on water/air systems that use the air-con to chill the water and achieve IAT readings way below ambient. The dodge demon runs one of these as OEM. And the FI interchiller is a very popular and proven aftermarket option for any forced induction application. It seems like a lot of people aren't aware these systems exist.
They seem to be far more common in the States in the aftermarket. In Australia not many people bother with them. I suppose it's mainly later model, milder builds here that tend to keep their A/C systems for obvious reasons. The heat your creating in front of the intercooler's radiator and the engine's radiator negate any benefit from the interchiller, that's what I'd be worried about in a street/strip or street/circuit application
That's because the intercooler is very inefficient to begin with on the dodgey demon. The system is only good for short term while the car is not moving. Who cares about going 400m in a few seconds, that's for cars that can't handle corners.
@chippyjohn1 aah yes, "who cares about drag racing?" He says. On a video about intercooling. From a brand that sell courses on installing and tuning engine management systems. Ran by a guy who held the 4G63 drag racing world record for several years and is regularly involved with professional drag racing teams from all around the world. But sure thing guy. Those are just cars that "can't handle corners" and whatever little low corner carver you have is definitely super special. Very clever. Gold star for you.
👨🔧 Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all-inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/offery181
✊50% OFF your first online engine building course. Enrol now: hpcdmy.co/offery181
Welcome back to you subbed fellas and fellaesses! Hope you enjoy this one 😎 Have a pretty awesome 180SX build lined up for the next release too - Taz.
Wonder how many supercharged cars out there with wrong intercoolers. Again thanks fellas 🖒👊
Probably a lot of them lol.
Heaps that's why they go Turbos haha
Hadn’t heard about the specific supercharger intercooler! Good to know
Not a common subject. But one of great importance . Thank you !
Glad you liked it!
Such an underrated channel
Tho I agree I get why it's a little high level for average joe car guys. Bet this channel has the most informed subscribers even if it doesn't have the most
HPA I always learn more about all racing parts and how to make sure that you use the correct part's for your application. 🤟💯 Aussie Fan 🇦🇺😎🤣
Would love to see an interview with Martial from MHD!
We did a series on our handle of twin intercooling , starting with White Zombie , devil speeding. Its a three video series. It makes a massive difference. Thanks for your videos and info!
I'm a delivery driver on the weekend to help pay for car parts. Which kind should I get for being on the road almost all day.
5:20 - wouldn't the fins actually accelerate the air volocity passing through because the fins would reduce the 'void' in the cross section for the air?
However, having the fins will make a huge difference in the surface area exposed to the moving air, and that would be responsible for the actual cooling improvement?
That’s what I’m thinking.
Fins are meant to increase surface area not slow down the air flow.
Air speed might be faster but I don’t think the difference of air speed is significant.
If tube and fin it must have a protective small mesh grill. It is lighter but bar and plate is heavier but more durable from road debris, acts as a heat sink dissipating heat. Air foils will help concentrate colder ambient air to the intercooler core. My question, is a thicker core better than a larger front surface area in a core? I want to have a 5” thick core. With a larger front surface area air foil directer inside the end tanks will help distribute the cold air from top to bottom of the intercooler core. Also like you said very dense fins for an ic core can cause backpressure to the turbo as well as inhibit air flow to a radiator and a/c condenser behind the ic core. For gravel rally racing a bar and fin core would be more suitable due to the road debris hitting the core. For street and road racing a tube and fin may be more suitable.
If it has the same cross-section, the larger frontal area and shallower depth will be expected to be more efficient for charge cooling.
The front row has the biggest delta in temperature as it is getting ambient, as the cooling air passed through the rows it picks up heat energy and the 'delta gradient is reduced, the more rows the less effective the last one will be.
On the other hand, a large front area has a much larger mass of cooling air passing through it to absorb the heat, and fewer rows so their average delta will be greater.
You may see some installations where the charge cooler (or radiator) is inclined to give a greater area to the matrix.
Same principle applies with liquid to air radiators.
Great info, thanks Andre!
Much obliged Sir for the insight.
Cheers! - Taz.
Excellent video
they are the same
He forgot too mention the disadvantages in bar and plate are made up with slow heating
obviously anything that “takes long too cool (the extra mass) has a flip side being it takes long too warm up.
Bar-plate suits a street car as plenty of cool down time is available AND longer cool temperatures when booting it
Tube-fin better for circuit, better (with) high speed cooling
agree 100%, Bar and plate has been better in my experience for the street, being it is well designed with a high flow core. Really, tube and fin/ bar and plate made well are leaps and bounds better than the OEM intercoolers especially when you run higher boost applications. I have a CTS bar and plate intercooler for my audi S3 and it has been amazing with dissipating heat for extended times in the Deep South where I live. I have never once had my CTS intercooler truly heat soaked. My car just keeps pulling time and time again hard in the heat, the outlet temps remain with 10 degrees of ambient.
Quite informative indeed thank you for chinese intercooler question as well as the point on back pressure!
Anyone here had much experience with fenix tube and fin intercooler? I've got their bar and plate and seems to perform quite well
Is there any gain or loss to intercooler performance if they are painted black? There are rumors of better heat dissipation from the black painted coolers. Im more interested in aesthetics of a black cooler.
Awesome content , thank you.
Glad you liked it, cheers for the support =) - Taz.
Why is the green sport core so little used? The cores of this company were bought by ARC. How do these cores cope with the cooling of streams?Compared to other forms of coolers.
Not sure if my question will be answered here.. if I drive in stop and go traffic
Tube and Fin vs Bar and Plate
How long and at what speeds before the IAT post intercooler drop to non heat soaked levels(below 55c or 130F, with over 40c or 105f ambient)?
Also a good tube a fin will have 2x less pressure drop then a bar and plate.
Bollocks. If you have less pressure drop, you have less cooling performance.
@@HypersonikBollocks my point is still fact.
@@Good-luck-Jonathan So you're admitting that the intercooler doesn't cool as well, thus will offer detonation?
@@Hypersonik So your admitting a bar and plate will have more pressure drop?
@@Good-luck-Jonathan No, I'm saying that with either solution, if you cool effectively, you have pressure drop.
To get the lowest restriction possible it would make sense to have a much shorter but wider core with wide end tanks, similar to OEM Subaru STI ICs. Is it only a matter of packaging that vs. a standard "long core" setup, or are there other aspects that you sacrifice as well doing it this way?
Just thinking of it at the very extreme, a very tall but narrow design may not have the air traveling through it long enough to exchange it's heat
@@Onewheelordeal Yes but at the same time the air is passing the same area of metal. And a longer core will start to heat soak in the second half of it so gets less effective anyway. I belive that just comparing core size, the variant I propose is better at the balance of heat exhange and pressure drop. But large end tanks is also taking space that could be used for increased core size instead.
@@bingoberra18
Exactly, I'm quite surprised that no-one seems to have started making trapezium/trapezoid matrix to maximise the area in restrictive places.
@@Onewheelordeal apparently the vast bulk of heat transfer occurs within the first 3rd of the core, which is why very long intercoolers with few rows are less than ideal
Bell intercoolers makes slanted cores.
I was hoping to see vertical flow vs horizontal flow comparison; any videos you have on this?
Outside of a little discussion on the SR86 build (I think) we do not. I'll note it down for Andre, but also worth thinking about how the ducting is probably going to be more of an importance here than just if you are running vertical or horizontal alone, which then also comes down to how much room you have to work with/packaging.
You can also chat directly to your supplier about things like this before you purchase. They will know all the right questions to ask to help you figure things out, and you can talk to a few chaps to make sure you're getting the same answers as you find your feet with it all - Taz.
@@hpa101 I worked with a world leading supplier and the core they sold me can't handle 475bhp, let alone the 700bhp it was supposedly rated for. Looking to learn how to size vertical flow intercoolers before I trust them to redesign again. Can VE differences between engines account for differences in power ratings for intercoolers? Similar sized cores for K series engines are rated for 700hp.
Superb
Funny how those tube and fin ones from plazmaman aren't even close in fine count to a threadstone. They honelsty are a bit closer to a ebay deal then the latter. End tanks are really nice looking but I just can't see them working at the same level at all.
Nothing compares to a garrett core.
I have had a garret core which was 2 76mm cores together making a larged stepped core.
I then got a Plazmanan tube and fin which was smaller. The Plazmaman ran cooler iat and did not heat soak like the garrett core.
And Plazmaman was half the weght.
Might be a pretty dumb question. But I own a vw golf r. Live down south in Texas and Temps are already reaching 110 degrees before the middle of June. Running it stock, but seriously looking into an aftermarket inter cooler to ideally improve overall reliability and better thermal management. I’ve been interested in the integrated engineering intercooler. I notice it claims to be a “bar and fin” combination. I was wondering if this is sort of a hybrid of the two designs mentioned here? If so I’m curious if you or anyone in the comments here has any thoughts on that design? Great video!
The IE intercooler is a bar and plate design. Its a very good quality intercooler for the Mk7 GTI and R.
ARC brand from Japan...they used to sell cooling fins with thermal paste to stick them over or on things to rid of heat soak ...they also made some intercoolers you guys ever compared them to plazaman
I didn’t really hear any downsides for tube and fin. Maybe they’re a little more fragile?
backpressure/ more internal fins the better it exchanges but the more it backs up the engine . if its a turbo and not a great choice of turbo then every psi drop through the IC and IC piping amounts to almost 2 in the exhaust . this is the bit people dont grasp/ basically the bar plate is the better choice there but it has to be physically larger to amount to the same amount of cooling but at less pressure drop
Some my friend tell me not gonna use fin for intercooler
Yup, they might be right depending on your application. I think the biggest point you can take away from chats like this is that nothing is simply 'better', you just have options that have their own pros and cons which you need to consider for your own build regardless of what suits others doing something different are using.
Talking to your parts suppliers to help you figure this out is a great way to generally see what details you need to provide to do this. Note we have only talked about 2 types of intercoolers here, there are more.
This might also be helpful: www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/235-choosing-an-intercooler-for-your-build/?
Cheers - Taz.
The tube & fin vs the bar & plate cut-away illustrations looked virtually the same. Am I dumb or did I miss something?
Agreed. It's amazing to me the way they blew past that as if it was obvious
should have gone to pwr tp talk heat exchangers, on a whole other level compared to plazmaman
We've talked to them before too I'm pretty sure, might be on the RaceCraft channel. We're brand agnostic, there are a lot of smart people out there doing great things across the industry 😎 - Taz.
A2W or nothing :D
Not always possible due to packaging constraints. Weight considerations too.
A2W I would think is for short term cooling requirements like drag racing where they usually put ice in it to maximize the cooling of the charge air. I would think it’s not suitable for road racing or street applications where an air to air is going to be more efficient in longer durations.
@@weduhpeople8504 the only part of that which I can agree on that there is additional weight and packaging requirements for a water/air intercooler system.
Most of the "air/water vs air/air" comparisons you'll see will be showing a fairly optimised air/air system (since the tech is basic and well understood) compared to an air/water system with a hopelessly undersized charge-air cooler, tiny front-mount heat exchanger (Less than 1/4 the size of the air/air unit) and a water pump that barely flows 5gpm through the system.
The ability for water to absorb and dissipate heat is 4x that of air in a 1:1 comparison by mass, and for circuit/road racing an air/water system has way more potential when optimised.
As a cherry on top, when you consider the option to run an A/C unit like an interchiller to make the water run at sub-ambient (and sometimes sub-freezing) temperatures. The advantage is clear.
Air/water all the way!
@@jacksonjdr94 A water chiller would be crazy to run, cooling down 10 kg water that constantly soaks up heat.
10-20 hp would be needed to keep the temperature down for longer then 1 drag run at the time.
Designing a better turbo system would be preferable before talking about water chilled intercooler.
Also the hose routing would be annoying because almost no one wants extra weight dangling infront of the wheels, so things needs to go into cabin or boot.
@@larsjrgensen5975 AC chilled water/air systems can work exceptionally well and achieve IAT readings **way** below ambient.
The dodge demon comes with this type of system from factory.
There are quite a few videos on TH-cam exhibiting the cooling capacity of the FI Interchiller.
One of the more recent ones shows a vehicle idling on a 41c (106f) day in australia with IAT readings of 12c (53f).
There's also videos of vehicles on the dyno comparing using water at ambient temp to chilled water and the power gains are usually in the 50-100rwhp range through the entire curve.
And an AC pump uses zero horsepower when it's disengaged. So you wouldn't run the AC pump when going down the drag strip, you'd use pre-chilled water from the reservoir.
A road race car would be a different story, you'd calibrate your engine management to engage the clutch on the AC when the temp of the water in the reservoir reaches a certain mark.
Being able to reduce intake air temp below ambient and keep it cool is just a win in every possible way, it can save hours on the dyno and ultimately make for a more reliable boosted motor.
Heat-soak is one of the most challenging issues a tuner has to face, as it can vary widely from dyno conditions to real-world racing conditions.
These systems provide a tuner with something that an air/air system never can. Consistency and repeatability with an active system to keep intake air temps in check!
👍🏽🇺🇸👍🏽
So this interviewer claims he has tested finned vs Chinese intercoolers and found a 66.6 hp advantage to finns over Chinese.
I am certain the finned cooler will be better but if its 66.6hp better then how much was the engine making - before and after.
I'd love to see a feature on water/air systems that use the air-con to chill the water and achieve IAT readings way below ambient.
The dodge demon runs one of these as OEM. And the FI interchiller is a very popular and proven aftermarket option for any forced induction application.
It seems like a lot of people aren't aware these systems exist.
They seem to be far more common in the States in the aftermarket. In Australia not many people bother with them. I suppose it's mainly later model, milder builds here that tend to keep their A/C systems for obvious reasons. The heat your creating in front of the intercooler's radiator and the engine's radiator negate any benefit from the interchiller, that's what I'd be worried about in a street/strip or street/circuit application
@@danielbrealey2924 lmao.
That's because the intercooler is very inefficient to begin with on the dodgey demon. The system is only good for short term while the car is not moving. Who cares about going 400m in a few seconds, that's for cars that can't handle corners.
@chippyjohn1 aah yes, "who cares about drag racing?" He says.
On a video about intercooling.
From a brand that sell courses on installing and tuning engine management systems.
Ran by a guy who held the 4G63 drag racing world record for several years and is regularly involved with professional drag racing teams from all around the world.
But sure thing guy.
Those are just cars that "can't handle corners" and whatever little low corner carver you have is definitely super special.
Very clever. Gold star for you.
Great video, very informative!