Divine Hide and Seek: Is There Truly a Hider, Are We Truly Seeking?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ย. 2024
- Atheist philosopher Alex O'Connor (Cosmic Skeptic) and Catholic priest Fr. Gregory Pine, O.P., come together for a profound exploration of divine hiddenness. In this thoughtful dialogue, Alex questions whether there is a "divine hider" at all, while Fr. Pine challenges us to consider if we are genuinely seeking or if the mystery of God is one meant to be uncovered in unexpected ways. Are we engaged in a one-sided game of hide and seek, or is there something deeper in our approach to faith, doubt, and the unknown? Tune in for a conversation that will leave you pondering life’s biggest questions.
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I did not expect *this* collab.
haha right
I prayed for Alex to speak to an excellent theologian like Fr. Pine. Ave Maria ❤️
Alex O Connor, one of the best torch bearers from the enlightenment rationalism, and Fr. Gregory Pine, one of the greatest intellectual minds of the Catholic Church. This should be good.
I think Alex is generally doing a great service both to believers and un(non?)believers, but this is one of the-somewhat rare-occasions that I've seen Alex uncomfortable due to what seems to be the sheer thoughtful and profound responses given to all of his enquiries by Fr. Gregory Pine... what a great man the Fr here seems to be.
It also helps that Pine is an absolute giant of a man lol
More like Pine is saying a bunch of nothing
@@aisthpaoitht Alex seems to be following him perfectly fine. As am I.
Fr. Pine has such a great formation in medieval thought that it is difficult for modern minds to contend with him. Alex is probably one of the most refined atheistic modern minds of our particular day, having moved far beyond the very silly ideas of Dawkins and the like. Someone like Fr. Pine is needed to answer someone like Alex, I think.
@jareddembrun783 Fr Pine uses arcane vocabulary detached from reality.
I am a protestant, but I always enjoy hearing Fr. Pine speak, and I really hope that Alex comes around someday, so I am excited for this conversation.
I am excited for yours. You are in my prayers, Peter
@@Peter-qb8gf I'm a Catholic and I can't listen to Fr Pine for very long 😄
"To fall in love with God is the greatest romance; to seek him the greatest adventure; to find him, the greatest human achievement."
St. Augustine of Hippo
Fr. Pine is one of my favorite main stream Dominican priests. God Bless you Fr. Pine.
God bless Fr. Gregory Pine. God bless the Order of Preachers. God bless Holy Mother Church
Amen. St. Dominic Pray for Us. St. Thomas Aquinas Pray for Us.
It is of paramount importance these objections are given thorough treatment and response from the top tier of Catholic intellectuals across the social media landscape.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine has given his objections a thorough treatment.
@@greypilgrim1649 Fr. Pine is a "top tier" theologian.
Absolutely. The war we are fighting in the culture is ideological and rooted in philosophy. All of our societal ills for the past 300 years are rooted in the so called "enlightenment", which was absolutely inspired by the "light bearer" himself.
Let's all pray an Ave for both of these fine gentlemen. Fr. Pine for his continued spiritual stewardship and for Alex and his seeking soul. Deo Gratias.
Praying for Alex, because I definitely believe he is on the path and that he is doing God's work in bringing people to Christ.
Was pleasantly surprised to find this crossover; I really enjoyed the conversation.
Cracked me up when Fr. Pine had the realization that he was a preacher 😂, i.e., in the Order of Preachers. Reminds me of when I sometimes, randomly, look at my wife and realize I’m married 😅
Greatest collab of all time
Truly
How quickly we forget peanut butter and jelly.
@@brandonburns5249 I mean your not wrong
Alex sees God as being far, while God keeps sending people his way to guide him
Alex finishes asking a question at 23:37, after mentioning that sometimes he is just not convinced by arguments, and if that's the case, "What is it that I might be doing wrong?" To this AMAZING, vulnerable, and courageous question, I think we need to just STOP, and sit in the Reality who is beyond all words and arguments. I know this is hard because its a podcast, and the point is to literally talk to each other, but the one Word which is the peace that surpasses all understanding, that peace for which Alex's heart (and all our hearts) are longing, will not force Himself upon us. Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them," so the Father must speak His one Word of Love to each of us in a unique way. Yes, most of the time it happens through words, but sometimes, especially for someone like Alex, it seems like the silence might be the place to meet Him. This is not to be anti-reason, it is just to point to the heart, and say that when the mind and will are united in knowledge and love (aka wisdom), no more words are necessary. Anyway, this is awesome that you guys are talking. Continued prayers for you both... Fr. Brian
I get a sense whenever I listen to Alex that he regards this whole subject as an intellectual exercise and that because he's a 'clever lad' his role is to try to find and posit difficult questions. It's as though he's not really interested in the answer, this is what he does. Fr Gregory gives a complex and thoughtful answer and Alex just moves on and tries to find another problem. There seems to be no line of reasoning which affects Alex or causes him to pause. So it feels like running round in intellectual circles or playing hide and seek with the truth. At some point Alex has to stop and just listen.
Hmmm, Something is really happening. I must commend Alex for not just being a Tribal loyalist, but fostering good faith conversations across the board. I think we need that!
There's 2 faces I didn't expect to see facing each other and God am I here for it!
I remember that debate about lying! Fr Gregory pine you were very brilliant
Let's go Fr. Gregory! ❤
Great respect to O'Connor for taking part in this conversation.
I personally cannot say I've ever met someone that genuinely was seeking God and couldn't find him. People that look for God find God. All the people I know that are atheist or agnostic don't have any desire to find him, and I don't mean only maliciously. Most just don't care one way or the other.
I mean think about it, what's the point of their life anyways, they always think they lose something by believing in God. I just don't understand how they can find meaning in their universe. Alex is a smart guy, but in their system how do they account for all these values they have. Why should I become an atheist? Why is atheism the default? Now Alex did complain about the story of adam of eve, but it's much more nuanced than that.
Alex questions are quite good and haven't been answered but Fr Pine also did great in this conversation. I believe I am Catholic because God has given me a efficient grace to believe, he has made it so I was baptized and for whatever reason, I came back to my faith 6-7 years ago. As Fr Pine said, prima pars q23 is good on this.
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Keep looking Alex. Unless this is, like you said, a theatre, to you; you shall find it.
Look out for the body language! the religious one, calmly seated, opened arms. The atheist, straight, closed arms... who is really seeking truth?
🔥🔥🔥🔥
“Choices are the hinges of destiny “!
Praying for you dear Alex!
🙏🏾♥️🙏🏾
Oh, Fr. Pine, you know Our Lord intimately. No need to debate.
Jesus loves you guys!
Thank you Fr Pine
Lovely conversation.
I've always admired Alex for his humility and eloquence. Fr. Pine did a great job, but I wish he'd speak more simply.
I agree I'm a huge fan of Alex and how he converses.
Humility? He is insufferably arrogant
What exactly was insufferable about him here? I found him to be quite charitable and kind. In fact his body language is somewhat guarded, not arrogant.
I like both, but I find humility to be oozing off of Pine. And not so much of Alex. For example, Alex's argument hinges on him doing no wrong as a seeker, while he would never make the claim that psychology as a field supports the idea that we can accurately access ourselves. Pine is hard to understand at times, but that is also because he is very measured and accurate.
To be fair to Alex though, he did asked on a humble way to Fr. Pine what he could have done different . I do not think he argued he did everything perfect in his search for God
Great conversation. Thank you
Such a good dialog! so so so glad it wasnt a debate, this was great
Thank you Father 🙏
Ima end up watching this another 10 times
I think when people convert because they met someone tells us that we each have a part to play in each other’s salvation or desolation 53:51
A deep conversation between two great truth seekers..
21:37 you’re limited by your cognitive pride. Pray, fast, learn humility. “Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Thine be done.”
"just shut your brain off"
C.S. Lewis "Great Divorce" is the best illustration of how easy it is to choose hell, even if they know for sure and are currently experiencing hell itself, I've ever read.
Its easy to pursue an intermediate good to a bad end, as an overbearing mother, or a vindictive employee, or a prideful intellect, over an absolute good that will annihilate that position of a distorted good, whether its the nuturing instinct, personal justice, or studiousness and curiosity.
In fact, we do it constantly. God help us.
The Good, the True, and the Beautiful
I'll tell you the answer I've heard from some Christians about the Thai vs Rwanda dichotomy. It seems that somehow we all have in us somekind of a Jewish "gene", coming from the first humans, in direct contact with God and that God tries to activate that "gene" in order to bring us to him through Jesus. So, if you are born in a tribe which did not ever contact civilisation like in the Amazon Forrest, you are still somehow a Jew in a sense and it seems that God/Jesus will do everything to gain you on the good side. Personally, I don't know if will ever be able to leave such a - still - closed community. But, if you had the bad luck of being born before Christ came on this Earth, but you still did good - I wanted to say if you are someone like Socrates, but no, he comitted suicide, so, he is not eligible - so, if you did good, but never heard of Jesus in your lifetime, than you are in Purgatory/hell, but Jesus will come down there and preach to you, and, if you choose him, well, you are saved and pulled out. That is what I heard from Christians that still care and try to seek an answer, even in this form, but others will say, if you were born in 600 BC Greece, you and your family/people are/were far from God, well, tough luck, you and your family burn in hell.
I think C.S. Lewis’ book ‘Till We Have Faces’ is a great companion when reading through the book of Job
The Lord tells us not to judge what is in other people's hearts, what they felt in their hearts we have no access to outside of what the text suggests, which is that they knew it was not what they were told to do, and they did it anyways, and that Adam and Eve both sloughed the blame onto other things and did not take responsibility for their actions.
That they were not "at fault" for disobediance seems to be a projection.
If I look at my own heart, it is obvious to me that I carry the same traits. I know someone told me not to do something, yet I knowingly abrogate it, or keep to it.
Looking closely at the punishments alotted out to the 3 characters, they are the seeds of their redemption.
Man and women learn to be selfless and patient in suffering through them, and the serpant loses his potency to harm us.
Conner says he knows what he would choose now given the choice of a palace and a hovel, and he knows he chooses the hovel.
As a final comment, his argument for "well you are just a believer because you had a chance encounter with someone is full of holes. Who said it was chance? He's still running with the axioms that God is a human being behind a curtain pulling levers. I have the feeling he'll make a great Christian once he finds the answers he is seeking.
Great conversation 👍
I have repeatedly requested, whenever Alex appears on a podcast, that he study the topic of kenosis or that a host outlines how we Catholics see how God reveals Himself to us.
Many who were born in to the church fell away, lived the empty live of the prodigious son, and many have returned, many awaiting to return.
I am the first Catholic Christian in my secular family line from a line of taoist folk religion/buddist background. The emptiness of these social, material, even familial "advantages" is self evident without God, though it might take long suffering to finally accept. All of us sought to fill this hole in our existence, the dao or way of love as they best could handle vs their own unique nature.
What appears as an advantage or disadvantage on its face is not clear in any simple cause and effect way.
We have this deep sense of this need that God must appear to us on our terms, and we invent a million justifications for this, but it appears the whole point is that we are not God, we dont set the rules, we don't even fully understand the game, but we still insist on being the Game Master.
Lastly, it appears in Christ announcing "the men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment and condemn the people living today, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah," he is saying the conversion of the heart for them was sufficient for their times without the risen Christ. Given the announcement of the destruction of Ninevah, they believed without being Jewish, and took it upon themselves to humble themselves and ask for mercy are worthy to judge us who have the benefit of the signs that we have been exposed to.
Fr. Gregory should offer to hear his Confession.
That's so presumptuous.
@@aisthpaoitht In what way is it "presumptuous"? Alex is fighting his own conscience. The grace of this sacrament is able to heal it and give him peace.
Deus vult, let’s gooooooo
Adam and Eve sinned because they took from the Tree and didn’t give thanks, seizing the raw material of the world without first “giving thanks” (Romans 1:21). One cannot give thanks while seizing that which God has forbidden. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was about gaining the wisdom to discern good and evil, which is integral to becoming a king. Adam sought to exalt himself without first giving thanks and acknowledging God as the source of his life. Jesus Christ, the New Adam, undoes this at the Table by taking Bread and Wine and “giving thanks,” so that whenever we bring our weekly labors to God at the Eucharist, we are being truly human in the full sense. As Paul says in Philippians 2, Christ endured even to the death of the cross, and now God has exalted Him. Notably, the view that the restriction of the Tree was temporary, not permanent, is one shared by the Church Fathers
I see no mustache on Alex. Is this an older video?
According to Alex, it would be okay to do evil if someone deceived you into thinking it was not evil. By that logic, he would have been issuing a bunch of pardons circa 1945.
Context. We see great suffering that comes from free will, but we haven’t yet seen the misery from the co-opting of freewill. Think transhumanism, the “fixing” of freewill made in the image of central planners.
"Through no fault of my own" - Alex
How do you know it's not your fault?
@@Thony-b8k As I commented, Alex never takes personal responsibility
@@carolynkimberly4021 You commented a lot of stupid things, we saw, you can calm down now.
Try to get your mind straight and comment 1 comment pointing all your thoughts instead of multiple small, meaningless comments like bots do.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I Mean what kind of question is that ?
If he is being honest yeah he knows it is not his fault unless he got Alzheimer or something wich doesn't seem the case.
What a ridiculous question. Obviously if he believed in God then he would... believe in God. How is it his fault that his intellect isn't convinced?
Alex should read CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce". People choose hell all the time, every single day.
He may have read. He has spoken about CS Lewis, and his works, in some of his videos
The most unexpected crossover
This was very good
Alex really has made a career out of trying to convince himself and others that he is more fair and just than God.
bruh for real, he was actually started in his bedroom as "that" edgy teenager.
I can see the saints and the angels standing behind fr Pine while on the other side the devil and his demons are riding hard on Alex. No offence to him. I pray for Alex so that he will finally see.
I was an atheist myself. I thought I was smart enough just because I knew a thing or two. God is almighty and He works in mysterious way. Jesus Christ is the bridegroom and the Catholic Church is His bride ❤
Amen❤
Where were the saints and angels when many Catholic priests were r*ping/abusing children? Why did God allow them into the Church, surely God would’ve known beforehand.
Amen, That’s amazing, can I ask what made you convert? I usually have talks with atheists and would like to understand them better
I dont see the demons behind Alex. I see genuine concerns and beliefs that he truly holds. If he knew deep down and was convinced but pretended to be confused than maybe I could see that.
@@otineyskciderf And this is why we rationale people find it so hard to believe. You claim “to see” but to the naked eye there’s obviously no angel or demon. You yourself just condemned Alex as being demonic possessed. Ever heard of the Salem witch trials? Burning children at the stake? You’re doing the same thing. Also where were your angels and saints to those Catholic Priest who were found guilty with evidence for abusing children?
I posted on the Alex O'connor subreddit one time that I believe Alex will become Christian one day. They HATED me haha.
He won’t
@@Shaun36183 why?
So happy to see Father Gregory Pine. You are the best Father 🥳⭐️
Grows a beard then takes on Cosmic Skeptic!
Not hidden if you're open & pay attention.
We expect BOTH that religion would look man made and divine. Religion is man made and reflects their cultures, except Christianity. But even within Christianity, some parts are man made in our understanding of it, in a sense.
Thank you to all involved - what a little treasure. On the Schmoe scale of awkward encounters, this one smacks through the roof .. Poor Alex looks every inch the weary tourist more or less bushwacked into discussing 'The non-atomic nature of the atom' with a resident alien visitor who has sort of decided to dedicate his life to living that kind of life (on its own terms, without reading the clear-print small details but knowing they are in there).
Oddly I am somewhat reminded of the Bishop Barron interview, no, not with Alex, rather the one with that Hollywood-type actor, I forget his name, the one where the Bishop was blindsided by the actor on the character of the Holy Sacrifice - specifically when presented as though by a car salesman .. only here in mirror vision. Alex is handed the gentlemanly role as inquisitor and counsel for the prosecution (with, however, Rumpole-esque brevity*) and Fr Gregory was lumped with the job of counsel for the defence (without Perry Mason brief) - 'The Case of the Hidden Offender or the Mystery of the Problem of Evil', and you, dear audience, are to be the judge and jury.
Not so much Copplestone and Russell as salt and beef ..
Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek.
God bless. ;o)
* James Burge, QC (an anarchist at heart .. but .. this lot.)
N.B. Understanding the limitations of any creature, in a good creation - existing is a 'good', set in comparison to the creator lies at the heart of so much in this discussion .. but then, what do I know ......
Eve's wrong done, and therefore Adam's sin .. his responsibility, in the state of limited perfection, was a simple lack of trust, not an egregious revolution in intellect. They were little less than the angels, who had also rebelled, timelessly, that is limited in choice - but free to will, for all were not < God > ... yet intelligent notwithstanding. And the time-bound break being viewed here (in an ancient wisdom text) is one of dignity, honour and good-faith, seemingly so little a thing, yet with timeless consequences = because it is an offence against the indwelling goodness of that concept < God > and repaired in time only by God Himself, giving Himself, as a creature for creatures, still basically 'good' but intrinsically harmed (as a wounded relationship, O felix culpa, etc).
Laudetur Iesus Christus Deo Gratias Laus Deo Christus Rex
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Mary Margaret Schimweg crypto knowledge is like a secret recipe for success!
Can i also do it??? My life is facing lots of challenges lately.
I have heard a lot of wonderful things about this woman.
Same here I’m celebrating a $370k stock portfolio today started this journey with $39k. I have invested on time and also with the right terms now i have time for my family and the life ahead of me
It seems that Alex is discounting attention as a moral act, as least in some sense... At which point I begin to see the problem as philosophical - but if we are all trapped inside philosophical assumptions that have been passed down to us, then we've just circled back to another of Alex's arguments.
All is given.
Alex is a Protestant atheist. He has very narrow view of salvation and damnation.
philosophy and theology next maybe learn The languages of the Old Testament, Hebrew and Aramaic so that you can apply the Old Testament with the new testament and other religous faiths ie sumarian, persian ect. or just interview Paul Wallis or look at his work. i think this would be profoundly helpfull.
Does having prisons or even the death penalty, stop people from being bad? I would think that some people would act bad regardless, so why would the knowledge that hell is real, be any different?
I don't think Fr Pine needed to go so deep about the man-made argument. Alex is trying to draw a causal conclusion without showing causality. Correlation is not causation, and all he is saying is that religion flowed with man made culture, and his argument is "therefore it seems man made is a better explanation". He hasn't considered the possible cofounding variables or counterfactual explanations to derive causality, and you cannot say it is a "better explanation" without doing so. For example how to we not know God intended the faith to be spread by man made culture, as after all he chose not just individuals but a tribe, nation and kingdom to be the seed for His faith.
This isn't an argument for God, but just yo show that Alex made an incredibly weak argument.
Atheist thinks God is a micromanager
Atheism is for teenagers. They are ‘brave’ until they see the hell coming up in England to replace them.
Atheists are ‘brave’ till they see the hell coming up to replace them in their own land.
Just look at TAG Alex!
I read from the way Fr. Gregory and Alex sit that they are very different.
Fr. Gregory was humble
Alex shows that he is smarter than everyone
I took it as him feeling very threatened. He was tense and covering soft areas. My conjecture is that he felt very outmatched by Fr Pine.
He might also have been feeling this given that all he had were very childish arguments that kept hedging bets, such as saying "it seems more likely" rather than "this is what I believe".
@@kelly4187Why isnt Fr. Pine looking at Alex?
@@kelly4187
Alex is inspired by the style of Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins 😂
For me, the story of Adam and Eve couldn’t be more simple.
I’f objective good and objective morality belongs to God, and Him onley, taking the right to proclame objective truth and objective morality to oneself, leads to chaos and destruction. We inhereted the tendency to moralize eachother, and thus we take from God what’s His.
We are all creatures with own subjective lence, through wich we can all together see more clear objective Truth. (God)
If we belive that Jesus was the onley Man who was objective Truth and objective Morality, then we should point to Him, and onley to Him!
Enough with liberals, conservatives, traditionalists… Jesus knows better!
Alex has always struck me as a man searching. Where I believe he fails or falls is on human free will. Fr. Gregory picks up on this in explicit way as he keeps going back to "human volition" as a response. Alex seems to want human choice without the choices having a designated outcome. This is a manifestation of original sin. Alex wants God to answer him and or make Himself known which He does, i.e. seek and you shall find. The problem is that he wants this to happen on his own terms. He is open to an answer, but only in a very narrow and self serving way.
Alex always wants to explain away sin.
Dude chill
@mrman5066 ??What a worthless comment.
All non believers do, as some person or power saying what you can or cannot do seems like a fascist. However we aren't dealing with a mere human person, but God, the "I Am" surpreme force of existence itself. No wonder they fail to understand it... They view this world now as the supreme reality, when this world now is only one miniscule part of creation... And isn't even how it was supposed to be at all, but is instead fallen!
Alex, bring back the mustache👍👨
Woah
Fr. Gregory Pine is best when he's talking about spirituality. He's not the best at discussing philosophical questions, imo.
Can a philosophy nerd in these comments talk about Alex' reasoning in minute 37:30-39:00? It seems that God coercing his creation to worship him through threatening hell or revealing himself in glory to all would go against the same axiom of God's benevolence that Alex relies upon to even make this argument. Anyone have any thoughts on this
This! This is what I call the Spirit getting our attention about who God is. All that is offered here in response to Alex's question are platitudes to defend what demands obedience of dogmatic positions of Pine's strain of the Church, obscuring and veiling the true goodness of God, revealed in Christ. It may seem ironic, but I believe that Alex is much closer to the side of seeing God's goodness, which should only ever be magnified in our experiences with Him, and those experiences never diminish the true identity we have in Him
Perhaps it's audacious, but I believe Alex's own contemplation and challenge on this matter is far closer to Christ than Pine is, being stuck in the tar, unable to move beyond his convictions which are shaped by very same coercive demands that he is trying to rationalize against.
Seriously, St. Thomas was an example of someone who wouldn't believe till he had seen, and while he is the example that we are more blessed and may miss out on a lifetime of joy with Christ not seeing, Thomas' thought was rational whether we want to admit it or not. Jesus didn't shame Thomas and Thomas believed and WAS an apostle, coming to the conclusions that Alex mentions in both rationality and truth. Thomas, after seeing Jesus and feeling the wounds in his hands and side made it impossible for him to stop speaking of those realities, even if it included having to suffer for a while in this life for the sake of the Gospel.
Not sure why we are hung up on this whole notion that death is the end of our road where we just go into some form of amnesia or complacency with other people are suffering in torment, neither that nor annihilation are good and holy outcomes. Jesus being the eschatological destination for all creation opens up possibilities that are unknown to us, but we can be certain that will never exclude creation towards progression of infinite love and goodness in the Triune God.
Check out Jordan Daniel Wood, you will be blessed by his position which is kindled toward your own thinking
If God making his existence clear is coercion, then how can we blame anyone for not believing in his existence? Going to hell because you don't believe in something you have no certain knowledge of seems to go against benevolence more, than everyone worshipping God after witnessing the light and beauty that emanates from him.
@ God has made his existence clear to me and I haven’t had any visions. I’m talking about making his (or hell’s) existence clear beyond any reasonable doubt. You go to hell by choosing to reject God’s graces as Fr Pine mentioned more than merely not believing. As in one would go to hell for rejecting God’s way of showing you that knowledge in some way. The problem is that ppl wouldn’t see light and beauty. Gods presence is a consuming fire which can be torturous to those who hate God. Which is why some theologians believe we all go to the same eschaton and those who love God will experience the consuming fire that he is as an overabundance of love and those that hate him will feel it as torture. InspiringPhilosophy has a video on divine hiddenness that explains it better than I could
@@rnhmbover63 So God's existence was made clear to you then, but there is still reasonable doubt possible. So what if someone follows that reasonable doubt, why should he be held accountable and punished for eternity?
@@luxeayt6694 i wasnt finished w my point soz its a problem w my ipjone youtube app. I have to answer half of the comment then click read more and respond to the rest lol
Why isnt Fr. Pine looking at Alex?
✝️👑🙏🙏🙏
Its not disrespectful to kneal at Mass even if you are not sure about your faith, not at all the same as taking comunion when not in a state of grace (that is a grave offence). Try to kneal next time 😊
Even as Christian I always appreciate Alex. I found myself getting frustrated that his questions weren’t answered without a thomist nerd ramble. Get to the meat of it!!!!
Fr Pine is pretty pointless to talk to. "Thomist nerd ramble" nails it. A lot of words to say nothing.
Alex believes in a moral law and how he lives his life is a positive response to that law as it shows itself or illuminates his conscience. That is an anonymous or implicit belief in God. Vatican II allows for salvation via genuine search and response to the light of conscience. An example of how grace is available to all regardless of how explicitly it is presented.
Pine began to explain that God creates images of the Trinity because The Trinity is The Good. Thus God desires we receive the explication of grace from each other. Otherwise grace is only subjectively received via conscience. But, to the degree I positively respond to grace, I render that grace explicit in my intellect and character and can thus pass it on through free gift. The gestalt of communal proclamation and transference of grace is what images the Trinity on a higher level, and so that is what God necessarily positively wills. No other way is metaphysically possible because God only desires to share Himself, and so the act of communication of His nature must also reflect His nature.
“What should I expect if religion is a man-made phenomenon? It varies by culture. It reflects its culture, it suits its culture.” is Alex O’Connor forgetting that Christianity is from Hebrew culture, doesn’t that immediately poke a hole in his whole theory? Why are the Africans Christian? Why are the Asians Christian? Shouldn’t you expect that your religion comes from your culture? Suits your culture reflects your culture? Or maybe Christianity transcends culture 😐?
alex is interjecting quite a lot
ALEX LOST THE MOUSTACHE????????
If you lost your keys, you'd not just look, you'd grab things, turn them over, ask others, think about where you left it.
But you know the shape of those keys, you know they exist.
How do you seek God without knowing his shape or form? And what would "finding God" be like? Will you hold him in your hands? Will you see him?
What does it mean "to find God"?
Did you find him, when you know what he has done? When you know his character? His love and mercy?
What are those who found God saying what he is like?
And what do you expect to find?
When looking for keys, you must know the shape, color etc. in order to find them.
When looking for God, you can ask others what he is like.
Often Alex responds with "I can see how someone would....." you see what others see. That's how we got to know God, unless there is a miracle at work, which happens, but not for the majority of Christians, I'd suppose.
His arguments from culture seem like he actually doesn't have a, well, argument, bit is instead trying to seek answers. Who is to say that if you are born "down the road" that this is the "true religion", purely because you were born there? There can be omlu one religion that is 100% true by uniqueness. Therefore the others are not the true full religion of God. This in no way suggests it is just culture... There are countless examples of a culture having a religious revolution showing that the culture and it's religion are not perfectly correlated or causal.
A lot of atheist arguments about suffering fall about when we consider that we experience our existence consecutively. At any moment we are not the whole of ourselves. We are not the same people we were five years ago, and will not be the same person in five years time. Even nearly all of the cells in your body will be different... So are you really you?
The formal cause remains, so yes, you remain you. Only the material/accidents change.
Alex just doesn't even have the vocabulary to be able to converse with brilliant, holy Fr. Pine.
-.-
Please, stop.
The exemplar of Christian charity has entered the room
There’s no way you’re a real person 😂
You can tell by his body language that he feels very threatened
@@kelly4187I think it’s just awkwardness tbh. The setup seems stale and both individuals are closer than most setups. That makes it kind of weird tbh.
This comment section is the epitome of religious fanaticism.
this comment is the epitome of useless comments
'Religion is man's search for God, Christianity is God's search for man' - Peter Kreeft.
"through no fault of my own" what ?
Yeah you can't choose your beliefs, if he is being honest it is not his fault that despite engaging more with religion than the vast majority of people he isn't convinced.
I dont really get how the Taiwan or Massachusetts arugement is really convincing. God has made himself clearly know throughout creation according to romans 1 but humans misinterpret the clarity of the revealtion. In western culture, its easy to understand the clarity because its been ingrained in the our culture so its easy for someone to believe in God in western culture where its been clearer than eastern culture. Thats the point of missions which is to reveal the clarity to the world and correct what sin has obscured
Alex's first example of Divine hiddenness (that 90% of Thailand identifies as "Buddhist" and are therefore atheistic) is false and misleading. Buddhists are not atheists - most people who identify as Buddhist believe in unseen deities and/or spirits, and/or concepts such as fate, dharma, reincarnation, samsara - ie. we are all judged by some unseen force.
I feel bad for Athiests that Alex is the best they have to offer. Guy has been whining about the same things for years…. And loves committing the genetic fallacy. He seems to not realize the doctrine of the Fall of Adam and Eve, and what that did to our society and world. And he especially seems to forget who the prince of the power of this world is. Comes off like a sheltered kid who’s never experienced suffering or realized we live in a fallen world. God knows we need suffering to truly reach our potential.
You need some serious self reflection. Stop being arrogant in your own knowledge when the devil knows more than you. The world is a cruel place have some mercy to those who struggle and kindness to those who suffer.
Praise to God Almighty!!!!'m favoured, $140k every 3weeks! | can now give back to the locals in my community and also support God's work and the church. God bless America🇺🇸❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️