Hey everyone! Here's how you can get even more clarity about autism and neurodiversity in your life and relationship! Take a quiz: jodicarlton.com/take-a-quiz/ Take a course: jodicarlton.com/courses/ Listen to the podcast: jodicarlton.com/podcast/ Read the blog: jodicarlton.com/blog/ Attend a support group: jodicarlton.com/groups/ Request a private consultation for coaching: jodicarlton.com/booking/
The problem is that when you tell your partner that they are hurting you, and they keep repeating the behaviours, then it does turn into abuse. No matter how hard it is for them to understand why they are hurting you. They have been told they do, and that should be enough for them not to want to keep doing it. But when they don’t, they are actually abusing you even though it’s not intentional. Abuse is not always intentional. And if we do not call out abuse when it’s abuse, we become enablers and victim blamers.
I like to emphasize the *responsibility* piece. If a person is able to take appropriate responsibility in other areas of his life, in other relationships, and chooses not to take appropriate responsibility to grow in relationship with his partner, it then becomes a *choice that he is responsible for*. By not taking the responsibility to seek help to change, he is choosing to cause harm, even if he may not have the capacity to comprehend how his behaviors are destructive. He has made a choice not to take responsibility.
@@juliekong5013absolutely! Yes, you say it so well. This is another part of it that is equally valid and important. I think what I said about being told that you are hurting your partner, but continuing to do so, is just another part of being responsible or taking accountability and responsibility.
@@chrismaxwell1624sure, but how far is it ok to go without responsibility and accountability? If we don’t hold grown up people accountable for their actions we become enablers. If I tell a grown up person «you hurt me/it hurts me when you say/do xyz». Do they not also have a responsibility when it comes to changing behaviours then, and to do what they can to understand what you mean when you say that? There are things that can be difficult, but this is not impossible. If we think that then I think that would be ablist.
this is true. However, I do agree that it then becomes important to be curious. Not understanding is not a reason to dismiss or ignore a partner's stated experience.
I was with you until you said that abuse is only abuse if the abuser knowingly commits the abuse. As a survivor of generational family abuse, I can tell you that my abuser doesn’t believe they’re abusive. What would you call emotional/mental/physical harm to an individual in that situation? If it’s repetitive? Or it’s only once, but is traumatic? If you tell them it hurts, but they become defensive or use calm & logic to rationalize it’s about your behavior? That’s abuse. Regardless of what my abuser says.
Hi Kelli. I'm glad you commented. To clarify, I am in no way dismissing the painful experiences of people like yourself who experience harm. It can be devastating. However, feeling harmed does automatically mean someone is being abusive (sometimes it does, but, there are so many reasons why someone can experience feeling harmed by a person's behavior/actions that aren't because abuse is actually happening. So, to answer your question, there is not a one-size fits all definition for what is abusive behavior and what is not. Sometimes a one-time traumatic hurt is simply tragic and unfortunate, but not necessarily abuse. Sometimes repetitive hurt is rooted in differences in needs and preferences, but is not actually abuse. My goal here is not to minimize the horrors of true abuse - it is to highlight the importance of using caution labeling a behavior or person as "abusive." is a catch-all for behavior that feels hurtful. Just like the term narcissism has been watered down so much that it is common for people to say "we're all a little narcissistic," when this is absolutely not true. If we label all behaviors that result in harm to others as "abusive," we are all "a little bit abusive," which is also absolutely untrue. Hope that clarifies things a bit.
I agree with you...abuse is abuse whether or not it's intentional or not intentional and that's what is the difference of how you deal with the abusive behavior in the person who is causing it.
@@JodiCarltonI disagree also abuse is abuse. It's not always meant or even recognized by the abuser but it does not mean that the BEHAVIOR is not there. Some people might not know they are acting out abusive I agree but it does not mean that they are not abusive. Just that they might not be aware of there abusive behavior. Just like an addict might not realize they have an addiction but it does not cover up the fact that they have an addiction.
Its amazing how many of us on the receiving end of these kinds of behaviours have to suck it up because they have autism and its not their fault. Oh pleeeeze - it still feels like crap, and are you then having to enable and give in to them because they can't help it, in the meantime feeling hurt and unseen or heard yourself. So I hear you x
I agree. Once there is awareness that harm is being done, if the pattern continues then it is a choice to do harm. The caveat there is capacity - if someone is not capable of changing a behavior because of neurological or perceptual differences, then it’s not abuse (ex. Being alexithymic and therefore not intuitively aware of a partner’s emotions; forgetting to follow through at times due to sensory and cognitive overload; having a meltdown from brain overwhelm)
@@JodiCarltonI disagree. They don't have to understand our boundaries in order to accept them. My Aspie friend kept on overstepping my boundaries. I've told him, he couldn't understand. He made fun of my boundaries (gaslighing) so I kicked him to the curb. He had some very nasty narcissistic traits as well. I don't accept abuse, wether or not it is intentional or not. I have complex trauma and I need to have SAFE people in my life. He clearly wasn't.
@@marjol3inwhat your "friend" did wasn't what Jodi was talking about. When he made fun of you, was he overwhelmed, as Jodi said about as the exception? As an autist myself, I can tell you without hesitation that if he was making fun of you, he absolutely wasn't overwhelmed. He may have been lacking the executive function required to stop himself from doing what you told him not to do (which sounds a lot like ADHD - maybe he has both), but he wasn't overwhelmed. Understandably, you don't understand the autistic mind. It's different to neurotypical minds because the brain has "scrambled wiring." Autism is a neuro-developmental disability. Those who don't have it can only understand it academically at the most. To help you to understand what Jodi is saying, picture a large weight that's suspended by many ropes - each large enough to hold the weight. For a neurotypical person, maybe 5% of the ropes get cut per day, but they also get replaced at the same rate, so everything is OK. For an autistic person, more ropes get cut per day than the replacement rate if they do the same things as the neurotypical person. At some point in time, it's down to one rope holding the weight. Is it the fault of the weight that it falls to the ground when the last rope gets cut? Or is it the fault of all the people who were cutting too many ropes? The ropes are our ability to cope. The weight is our mental state. Those who cut the ropes are the stressors in life. Those who replace the cut ropes are the things that replenish us. Bringing it back from the abstract (yes, some of us have learned abstraction and can be good at it - it's a spectrum), when a person comes home on the verge of being utterly overwhelmed, with only one string remaining, and he finds an unexpected bill in the mailbox (while the bank balance is already low), the kids are screaming (the noise of which is horrendous to his sensory sensitivities), and his wife angrily accuses him of being a bad father for getting home two hours late (not knowing that he was berated by his boss for doing something wrong when the boss didn't bother to communicate the requirements properly, and he had to work back two hours later to redo the job, or he'd be fired), is it actually abusive if he literally has no more strength left to quell the urge to stand up for himself against what his wife said (which seems reasonable to her, but to him, he has been slaving away, being emotionally abused at work for lower pay than he deserves, just so he can give the kids the best start at life possible - absolutely not a bad father), and loudly growls at the kids to be quiet because he can't even hear himself think? Is that really abuse? Or is it simply someone who has been pushed too far and verbally snaps back at "the last straw"? This is the life of many autistic men, trying hard to keep their jobs, trying hard to make ends meet, coming home every day on the verge of being utterly overwhelmed, and their wives and kids fail to understand how close to snapping back at someone he really is, but running headlong to cut that final rope. Have a good hard think about your answer and consider how you would feel in his position, coming home from overwhelming troubles and frustrations to more troubles (including what you consider to be false accusations) when you only have one rope left holding the weight, and that rope is already fraying...
I agree. How many times would I need to hear, “you’re hurting me” to want to understand why and how to change, so I don’t hurt that person? 1 time. With my ex, I said those words and many more, THOUSANDS of times. He had intent. The intent not to change not matter the harm caused.
Thank you for clarifying this Jodi. EXCELLENT video. I agree with your definition of abuse. I feel for the women who have been hurt in relationships with inflexible men. It's hard to distinguish bad human behavior and autism, but there IS a difference. NTs and NDs are both capable of abuse, and we don't lump all NTs or all NDs together as abusive. A lot of the traits of autism can seem monotropic and selfish that are true traits of autism. Like, need for routine, behaviors that seem like OCD and perfectionism that they just can't seem to overcome (the meticulousness she describes), the appearance of lack of empathy, etc. The lack of empathy is false. We know that autistics might have trouble recognizing the emotions of others, but do experience empathy once it's explained to them. They can have a lot of good traits too like dedication, honesty, and loyalty for example. It can be difficult to distinguish bad human behavior from autistic traits of inflexibility and what seems like selfishness, but there is a distinction. Autistics are perfectly capable of autonomy, self-awareness, and improvement. My husband and I give and take where we can. There are certain elements of my autism that are too difficult to overcome, but areas where I can use my autistic traits of "acts of service" to show I love him, or being flexible where I can be etc.
Would you agree that we feel empathy on a very deep level, but explaining that to someone who needs the validation of that explanation often falls short? That's how I see it anyway. I won't speak for other autistic people, but in my case I've been shattered and shut down, crushed sometimes by empathy I feel for a person, or even an animal. Sometimes I have trouble trying to convey that empathy to someone who is looking for that comfort. I understand, and I feel it, and I even want to fix it.. but don't know how to convey that information, and my attempts to try and 'fix' whatever it is, to 'help' often backfires on me. Over my life I've found that keeping my mouth shut most of the time has the least negative effects, even if I really want to console or help them.
Abuse may not be a trait of autism, but the amount of nt women married to an asd spouse I’ve seen with many chronic health concerns, anxiety depression ptsd and complex ptsd. They may not mean mean it but the impacts remain the same. This video was hard to watch as a therapist
Yep! Doesn't matter if the wound was intentional or not, the victim bleeds the same. If the woman feels damaged, it's just as valid regardless of what the husband is diagnosed with. The damage is done.
Thank you for this Jodi. I’ve only in this past several months had a name for my experience. I’ve been married for over 40 years to a very good, bright, eccentric man. I love him. No diagnosis but I believe he is on the scale. He agrees. We’ve had some brief discussions and he recognizes that he has a different kind of brain. I think it’s been a relief for us both to have a considered “label”. I’m working on my own behaviour and on a weekly and sometimes daily basis I can be hurt emotionally. I remind myself that his ways are mostly unintentional. I acknowledge to him now that his level of discomfort is real for him. He can come across as self centred but now I realize he’s anxious, uncomfortable, physically in discomfort in many environments. A work in progress but he and we are worth it. I have had to make a life for myself over our whole relationship or I would have “perished”. Not his fault but having a name for it all has been a huge help. I try now to communicate clearly and this is a learning process too. I’m an emotionally intelligent person, my husband is not so much. He’s a good person. He’s very bright and intellectual. Very capable so my emotionality at times he doesn’t understand and he knows too, intellectually that he benefits from that just as I benefit from his resourcefulness.
so many people are fearful of the "labels," but really it's a framework to help us understand ourselves and one another. It sounds like you and your husband are both making an effort and that is so important! Just today on a support group call, 2 different autistic men became tearful in describing exactly what you's said about your husband feeling anxious, uncomfortable, and in physical discomfort - they expressed feeling shame about this and their other difficulties. It's so helpful when each partner is able to acknowledge and recognize that the other partner is having a legitimate experience that is so different from their own.
What I heard you say was. If my partner tells me I hurt them by criticizing them and I feel like it wasn’t my intention I will do it again.. so basically even when I say you hurt me, because you don’t believe it personally that means keep doing it? That sounds like intention.
Autistic people rarely intend to hurt, but the outcomes can be the same as if they did. I'm not sure I agree that intent is required for harmful behavior to be called abuse or neglect. Regardless, that's semantics. The outcome for the victim can be the same.
I agree that the outcome can be the same. So anyone who is in a relationship where they are experiencing harm needs to assess the intent as well as the ability, willingness, and motivation of a partner to learn and implement changes. The harm done is not in question, and it is critical to determine how to stop or minimize the hurt. However, labeling someone as "abusive," is a very strong term that carries inaccurate character implications when there is no intent to harm. This is also an extremely damaging accusation to make that can also have devastating results. In my opinion, this is the abusive behavior because there is typically a vindicating need for validation that involves an intent to judge, shame, vilify, guilt, and rebuke the autistic person by assigning the label of "abuser," or"abusive." It's not just semantics - words carry powerful weight. Meeting hurt with hurt is not the answer.
Asperger’s people don’t take accountability for their abusive, neglectful behavior, that means they’ll never change. And even worse -they blame their partner for all their problems. There was no hope with my ex and I am so happy I left him. They are not worthy of an empathic, caring partner trying to save the relationship, when all they do is think about themselves.
Thank you. If someone is a narcissist people understand the toxicity and don't hesitate to call out abuse. Autism? Oh you should just be understanding. NO. they have to work at a relationship as well. Is it work? I'm sure it is. I've had to adjust to them. That's work too and I have mental health issues as well. It's not an excuse. And is the harm intentional? Maybe not, but here's the problem- once you TELL them how you feel and they laugh at it or disregard it? Yes. abusive.
ok but heres my question how much of that could be fixed by figuring out how to explain in a way thats understood and therefore not dismissed if its dissmissed after that then thats another thing but how much of its dismissal to be hurtful vs dismisful because i dont see why this is important to you
@@morganpauls1873 I really think it depends on the individual. Some people lack empathy for other reasons such as a co-morbid personality disorder. As to the messaging other folks, I leave that to experts. Some want to change, some don't. Like all disorders, some use it as an excuse in relationships. None of us have that luxury if we truly desire a healthy relationship. Desire plays a role.
@@reneelibby4885 ok but how are you suposed to just want to change a thing if you dont know what or why that things is hurtful to another and what do you do in the case where the expression of that hurtful behavior is neccessary to maintaining/returning to your own stable state? how do you deal with it being both hurtful and neccessary? and how do you separate what is neccessary but hurtful from what is both hurtful and uneccessary?
My wife is not interested in anything listening or reading or talking about this subject. Yet she continues acting or I should say lack of, the same way until the point I feel I have to disengage totally out of selfprotection. In my belief, it is and feels like abuse.
My ex would always promise she’s going to get therapy & acknowledges she might be on the spectrum. Thing is she would never follow through on getting the help. She used to get treatment for what she thought was OCD, but she was being treated for the wrong diagnosis. She doesn’t have OCD, she’s Autistic
Are you taking on any clients? My ex partner definitely has ASD level 1 but something else is off about her. I had to walk away bc nothing was changing even though she promised me for years she’d get a therapist & things would be better. Thank you! I laid out a clear road map for her on what I needed from her. I also explained to her in great detail on why her behavior is harming me, why it was so hurtful to me. Yet despite being aware of it, she’d still continue the bad behavior for years. We’d have the same conversations over & over yet nothing was improving. Then when I’d tell her I’m done & I’m leaving, that’s when she’d lovebomb me, promise that she’ll do whatever it takes but then of course, would never follow through on it. Back to the same cycle.
I’ve learned to set boundaries with my best friend, who claims that they’re autistic. In the past they used to shut down everything I liked, if they hated something I enjoyed, they’d give me a whole lecture about WHY they hated it and thus I’d stop talking about it. It made me feel guilty and depressed that so many things I loved, they hated and I couldn’t enjoy them without their constant reminders about they the things sucked. It made me feel worthless. I finally TOLD them how that made me feel- explaining at length how this cuts off communication, if all they had to talk to me about was what they hated about what I loved- then how are we ever going to have fun? How can we be friends? What’s enjoyable about being together if it’s constantly about what they hate about my interests? Also, them hating something, **doesn’t trump why I love it** and I deserve to be able to enjoy something in the moment because I like it- and doing so- doesn’t invalidate why they hate it, or their feelings. I told them, if there’s something that you hate about something, I’ll listen to your feelings about it but I will listen only once, you do not need to *constantly remind me why you hate it* every time I’m enjoying it. Your feelings have been heard, and I remember them, but that doesn’t mean that I am not allowed to ever enjoy that thing in my life, ever again. If you are, my friend, you’ll respect that I take joy in something in particular, and that it means something to me, “just as I do for you.” “There will be times when you like something and I don’t like, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to bring it up while you’re in the middle of enjoying yourself, because you ARE enjoying yourself- and I want you to revel in it and be happy!.” They are loving something and that’s great. Example; Durians. I HATE them, but they LOVE them! They know I hate them, but I also love- that they love them more- than I hate them. So I’m always smiling with amusement when they are enjoying them, because I respect and even am impressed they like those. Then I go and eat something I personally enjoy. My best friend (of over 18 years now) respected the conversation we had and made that choice; to start respecting my love of something- more than their hate of it. This resonated very strongly. They loved the fact that I liked something, more than they hated something. That changed the language of how we even talk about something we don’t like- it’s framed from a sense of awe and respect of the other that they CAN enjoy it, and seeing why as something fascinating and impressive. Like some kind of Feat of Strength! Of course we find things we BOTH enjoy too- but that initial confrontation/conversation was important and was the defining factor over whether or not we stayed friends, to this day they are undiagnosed but they do have many other signs of neurodivergence, as do I- but this is how we ensured our difficulties didn’t hinder our ability to be kind and loving to one another. They are one of my closest and oldest friends and I honestly see us growing to be old together~ And still eating different cakes, I’ll have my straw berry and they’ll eat durian flavoured ~
I am not so sure that my story fits with what you've said. My step dad when I was young was undiagnosed asperger's at the time and he used to look through the key hole when I was getting changed, until I caught him. After that he refused to speak to me for weeks, which made me so upset and angry that I had to leave the house until he'd be in bed, then come home and spend time with my mum. He also had a smug look on his face whenever I tried to engage him in conversation or ask him to stop what he was doing. If that's not abuse I don't know what is. I understand that anyone, regardless of whether they are on the spectrum, can abuse others. To say that all people on the spectrum are just misreading the situation or that it's secretly about differences in needs and preferences - is giving some of them a hall pass to destroy others. That man knew what he was doing.
What your stepfather did was sexual assault and very traumatic for you. No one gets a hall pass for abuse. I’m not at all saying that “all” people on the spectrum are innocent or abuse. What I am saying is that not all autistic individuals are abusive. Abuse is not a trait of autism. It is a trait of human beings. Some abusive people are autistic. Some are not autistic. When people claim that autistics are abusive as a core trait aren’t we actually abusing the millions of autistic people who are in no way whatsoever toxic, dangerous people?
@@sds6303 While he was never officially diagnosed back then, I 100% believe he was on the autism spectrum. My Dad had ASPD/NPD so I know what that's like. Both people abused me but in distinctively different ways. My mum made a case for the stepdad to stay after what he did, by telling me he was just scared and that's why he was smiling. But there was no communication to clarify that because of autism and being raised by clueless parents. God damn :( My half brother is pretty much a clone of his father and he doesn't talk to me. It makes me wonder what his dad is telling him about me - and that increases my anxiety even more.
@@sds6303 I wrote my reply extensively but it must have deleted it and I'm too emotionally tired to go over it again. My bio dad had ASPD and I know that abuse well. My stepdad had autism. The end.
My partner of 12 years is autistic and it is extremely difficult to live with , she becomes ver aggressive over small things that the me and others is a total over reaction, has a strong sense of how in her mind people should behave and act . So spends most her days shouting about of at people for not doing what she thinks is the correct want to do things , this pushes people away. She is very controlling in most situations . This is very difficult , as she speaks for people and butts in constantly . I could go on but it is very hard. She knows she is autistic but believes the world needs to change for her not the other way around
Unfortunately one of the effects of neuraffirming care/therapy is to tell the ND person they don’t have to change and others have to accept them as they are, that others should conform to their needs and that asd makes them special . this breeds narcissism. Both Nd and NT both need to be considerate for any relationship to be healthy
Just because someone doesn't intend to be abusive, doesn't mean it doesn't land as feeling abusive to the person on the receiving end. I was in a relationship with a person with high functioning autism and sometimes his verbal lashings out when having a meltdown would feel abusive. I didn't feel seen or really heard because everything seemed to be about their perspective and their needs. I ended up just not even bothering to seek to get situations resolved, or try and be heard because it would all then land on how I was being a bad person, or being the one to blame for everything. You end up just not bothering and then the rot sets in, and for me it did.
Yes I totally agree with you! For this reason I teach autistic individuals how impact matters regardless of their intent and even when it doesn’t make sense to them. Many can learn to have cognitive empathy or at least to recognize that a partner’s experience is valid for them albeit very different from their own. What I do not want though is to label these individuals as “abusive” because this term carries weight about a person’s character and integrity. Abusers don’t care if they do harm and frequently do harm intentionally. That is not the case for autistics who genuinely don’t intend harm and are confused by accusations of abuse. There ARE autistic abusers who do intend harm or don’t care if they cause harm - these people don’t need to be lumped into the same category.
@@JodiCarlton I am an autistic woman married to an autistic man. Our daughter is also diagnosed autistic. My husband is "hypo" in autistic traits, and I am "hyper" (heightened sensory sensitivity, empathic, deep feel and thinking, want physical closeness, etc). So, this has understandably created conflict in our relationship. We've been married for almost 15 years. It gets really confusing when there is a mix of times when his hurtful/harmful relational behavior seems to sometimes be purely due to his autistic traits, and at other times he is actually consciously being hurtful/harmful and abusive. Since he's become aware of being autistic (about 5 years ago) his hurtful/harmful behaviors have drastically increased and intensified. He seems to use the autism diagnosis and his autistic profile as a "cover" for emotionally abusive behavior. But the impact of discovering I'm autistic and learning so much about it has made me even More empathetic and putting in more effort to understand him! So discovering how autism is impacting us in our relationship has just furthered the divide. That's not how I thought it would go. I thought this discovery would help us. Instead, he puts in less effort to understand or be empathetic to me, and I put in more! One of the worst things is how hard it has become to be able to know when he's being abusive and when it's just his autism traits. He is capable of picking and choosing his behaviors. He can mask and do it well (I'm terrible at masking) so I just have ended up so confused and feeling emotionally abused whether he's technically consistently being abusive 100% of the time or not. I am also autistic, but extremely concerned and caring toward other people's experiences and emotions, and make efforts toward awareness/insight and personal responsibility in relationships. How do you address a relationship or individual where a person's behaviors are due to a combo of autism and abusiveness. I'm looking for help, and am leery of trusting anybody to help because other therapists have made it so much worse in the past. This isn't a situation where I can protect myself by leaving, and deal with quite a bit of other disability which makes the changes I want to make in my personal life a lot more challenging.
You need to be aware of the fact that a lot of autistic people are actually abusive. I have had abusive autistic family members, romantic partners and coworkers. Some of them are nice people too. Honestly. Feel free to avoid autistic people like you would any allistic person who is abusive. A disability is not an excuse.
Yes, I agree!! Abuse is abuse. Autism is autism. One is not directly related to the other, but a person can be both. For my entire career, even when I have worked with brain injury, bipolar, schizophrenia, depression, anxiety, trauma, and addictions, to name a few, I have always told my clients that their challenges are not justification for harming someone else.
Yeah...no. I'm sick of all the videos and articles I come across CONSTANTLY defending this behavior just because they "aren't doing it intentionally". Screw that I've been in a relationship with and then married to this BS for 15years not realizing WTH was going on until I really started to study this phenomenon independently. I don't give up easy and have a ton of empathy by nature but this is ACCUMULATIVE and it's killing me, which is even less acceptable now because now we have a beautiful child who deserves to grow up in a HEALTHY environment. Planing my exit for our safety. A.S. CAN be ASSholes too.
Hello, and I'm so glad you shared what you're experiencing. Yes, autistics can be assholes - that's a human problem and autistics do NOT get a "pass" for being abusive. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that unintentionally harmful behavior is okay. It is important for autistic individuals to self-reflect and gain insight into their own behavior to determine if change is possible - and then to take efforts to make changes. Sometimes an autistic person cannot self-reflect effectively or cannot make changes (these are executive functions of the brain). Sometimes change is not possible for reasons related to an autistic person's neurological wiring, sensory processing, and nervous system activation. This is not abuse, but is a dysfunction of the brain (neurodivergent individuals have varying degrees of disability with executive functions). It is important for an autistic individual to be honest about their own capacity and ability to make changes - saying "I can't do that," isn't abusive if it's quite simply the honest truth. It is actually abusive to label someone who has a cognitive impairment as "abusive" when their impairment is the source of harm. That does NOT mean that the behavior isn't destructive and causing serious harm - a non-autistic partner's wellbeing and quality of life matters too! If it is behavior that cannot be changed, and it is causing harm, a partner who is being harmed has to decide if they have a dealbreaker or if the harm can be tolerated long-term without significant impact to overall quality of life. Sometimes no matter how much we want to be in a relationship, it is misaligned if one or both partner's are significantly harmed and change is not likely or not possible due to neurological limitations.
Unfortunately, autistic people are drawn to empathetic people because empathetic people can help them interpret other people's feelings and tend to be very loving and forgiving. Unfortunately this frequently contributes to a pattern where if you forgive an autistic person for hurting you, they think it's okay to do it again as long as they apologize. It can actually be dangerous for a neurotypical person to be married to an autistic person when they have issues with rage. Rage can frequently turn into physical abuse whether it's intentional or not. Until we find better treatment modalities for autism I again state that neurodivergent/autistic people should not be married to neurotypical people.
There is an intersectionality between autism and gender roles. In western society, especially, men are often not taught much emotional intelligence while women usually are. This puts men at a disadvantage regarding interpersonal communication. If the man is also autistic, then he is doubly disadvantaged. The effects of gender roles on the autism community are apparent in that autistic women are usually better at masking (acting "normal") and understanding their peers (emotional intelligence). In fact, some autistic women are so skilled at behaving "normally" that an autism diagnosis can become more difficult. Autistic men are given more slack to be less emotional, and many traits of autism may be mistaken for "extreme maleness" (there was even a theory that autism was an 'extremely male" brain). As a result, it's not uncommon for such men to not be taught much emotional intelligence or interpersonal communication and therefore they lack the skills to maintain relationships with others, especially in a romantic or familial level. It's important to know that autism isn't about "lacking" (deficits). Rather it's simply a different neurotype. We can feel all the same range of emotions as anyone else, but we do so differently. As a result, when we encounter a person who isn't autistic we can encounter what is known as the "double empathy" problem. Double Empathy theory suggests that people with different experiences of the world have difficulty empathizing with each other, and that this is a mutual problem. In other words, both sides and neither side are at fault. Recognizing this phenomenon can improve communication effectiveness. All that being said, autism is just a neurotype, much like neurotypical ("normal") is a neurotype. It's simply the operating system (neurotype) for your brain (computer). Autistics may use Linux while the rest of the world uses Windows. These different systems can do the same things - documents, databases, programs, music, etc. They can also allow harm to occur by being susceptible to bad ideas or habits, drawing the wrong conclusions, becoming entitled, or a whole host of other errors in thinking, understanding, or behaving. Some may even intentionally be malicious towards others. Which neurotype you're born with has no bearing on the type of character you have, much like which operating system is installed on your computer has no bearing on what the user chooses to do with it. I'd like to offer condolences for all who were hurt by a partner who did more harm than good. Autistic or not, bad behavior has no place in a healthy relationship and any partner who doesn't understand this isn't ready for a relationship.
My Saint Bernard didn’t mean to bite my whole face and leave teeth marks in my forehead and chin, but he did. I am weary of being married to a St Bernard who is not capable of the insight necessary not to bite me.
I understand how you feel and this is a powerful analogy that you've shared. Safety is one of our most basic needs as a human being, ahead of connection, intimacy, and love. If leaving the marriage is not something you want to do (or can do), then focus on your safety - if he is not capable of being insightful, then it's really important that you recognize his inability.- no matter how much you want him to change, if he's not wired to be different, or if he doesn't want or care to learn about his deficits, then he's not going to improve. Grieve it (you may need help with this with a therapist or coach like me), and then assess the life and relationship you actually have (versus the one you wanted) for what you can do to be safe and even fulfilled in some ways. It's easier said than done, and is a painful reality for you and many others like yourself.
Your analogy doesn't make sense. 1. Based on your comment, you're trying to compare a human to an animal 2. A dog is a different species than a human 3. Why did your dog bite you? What did you do to get bit? 4. Dogs are a whole nother species than a human. 5. I train dogs and they have their own personalities. 6. Don't try to attribute dog behavior into human behavior. It's not the same. 7. Your own dog will only bite you if you fail to recognize there agitation. 8. Dogs have their own language and it's up to you to be able to recognize or be able to interpret how they feel. 9. It's very rare that your own dog is going to bite you unless you failed to respect their boundaries or how they feel. 10. Trying to compare your dog biting you to human behavior is ignorant
Hi Debbie. You are not alone in how you feel and what you have experienced. Neurodiverse partnerships can be so confusing, painful, and draining when basic expectations and preferences are so very different for each of you. Each relationship is different, though. Abuse or lack of remorse is not inherently a characteristic of autism or neurodiverse relationships. Some people struggle more than others with theory of mind (cognitive empathy) which is the ability to understand the perspective of others. Sometimes a neurotypical partner will have difficult with this as much as, or more, than an autistic partner. In your own relationship. I encourage you to closely evaluate your own relationship to determine what choices you have to improve your own quality of life - you might find my latest podcast series helpful: th-cam.com/play/PLSyXJdjUav7pSwpq7nmSdEQZMwiI3eqHR.html
Could you tell some pointers what was draining maybe also if you or him understood each other or what could be misunderstood or maybe things that was left unfinished from one or both side was it anger like agressive or self inflicting anger
I'm sorry I think it's harmful to say that it's not abuse if the person doesn't understand they are harming someone. There are so many terrible people, narcissists, sociopaths etc. that truly convince themselves they do nothing wrong just to escape the guilt and responsibility, or they simply don't care therefore don't see it as harmful. They would never ever admit that they abused someone. Most abusive parents that are actually abusive unlike your own example would never admit to any wrongdoing. They have excuses and don't see how they couldn't do anything else. You could be confusing the victims into not labeling it as abuse and trying to deal with it longer than they should. Also I'm not even neurotypical. I have ADHD. I know what it's like to live with a brain that is different and the effort it takes to fit in. And I do feel abused by an autistic partner who just doesn't take accountability. If they keep harming you despite you explaining in every way possible, they should understand that they need to change even if they don't understand it. If they keep harming you, this is abuse.
I've been with my partner 11 years, and I believe we are both on the spectrum, even though we are both undiagnosed. My partner has a lot of abusive traits. We tend to argue a lot, and during heated fights, he becomes very angry, verbally and emotionally abusive, and becomes another person. After it's over, and after he has reflected, he usually acknowledges his actions. We both have had a lot of childhood trauma, and I believe his behavior is his way of coping with uncomfortable feelings. Not all people with austism are abusive, but I wouldn't be surprised that his outbursts and his way of dealing with conflict are due to being on the spectrum.
Hi there and thanks for the question. The impact is not in question - misunderstandings and differences in needs, plus different ways of thinking, feeling, and perceiving in neurodiverse relationships can be very painful. it is imperative to seek insight and guidance with a provider trained in neurodiverse relationships in order to decrease and minimize the harmful impact. However, both partners matter (unless a person is a sociopath who genuinely doesn’t care if harm is being done. This is not the same as being defensive or sensitive to criticism.) Being labeled as abusive can have a profound impact on an individual’s mental health. It can lead to feelings of guilt, shame, and isolation, or feeling vilified, especially if they are unaware of how their behavior is perceived. So mischaracterizing an autistic partner as abusive or neglectful when no harm is intended by that partner is actually the kettle calling the pot black in my opinion. Feeling neglected doesn’t justify causing harm in return. Again, thanks for your comment and giving me the opportunity to clarify.
@@JodiCarlton That makes sense from a therapeutic standpoint. I thought you meant it as a generalization, and it was nothing from personal experience, so no skin in the game, thankfully
@@sewmuchdufus I'm not sure what you mean by personal experience, but I, personally, have had a lot of experience with both autistic relationships that can feel neglectful AND with narcissistic abuse (from an autistic narcissist and from a non-autistic narcissist). Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between all of these behaviors and traits. So, I've got a whole playlist about that, a course, an assessment that I developed specifically to help make this distinction, and a new support group that's about to kick off. 🙂I'm so glad for comments like yours that help clarify my own intent and message! Thanks again.
Hello and thank you for your question. Large age gaps is not something I’ve come across in neurodiverse relationships any more than neurotypical relationships. So it’s not something I’ve considered addressing. Thanks again for asking!
Thanks for your feedback. Many neurodivergent individuals prefer captions whereas others like you do not. I will start uploading caption files so these can be turned on and off instead of embedding them in the video. 👍
I have been on the end of so much abuse just because I found others expectations to hard in the sense that they demanded me to act like a NT person.I had to explain how such things a sensory overload would make it difficult for me to do things .
Neurotypicals often believe that the way their brains work is what makes sense and is how an autistic should try to be - but really that’s like expecting a tall person to be shorter and to fit into tiny spaces better. It’s just not possible. Respecting differences and finding the middle ground is the way to healthy connections and relationships. Set boundaries with people who want you to be different than who you are. Do your part to find a compromise when possible. You don’t deserve be badgered or belittled for who you are.
im mild autistic but have klinefelter syndrome. What i will say is that for me, i am emotional and sensitive and will give compliments. I was in a relationship where she used to say i was mentally abusive. unfortunately i have had no help for my issues so i have done a great deal of mimicry, not understanding or knowing if the behaviour i am mimicking is harmful or not... alot of autistics share the same attitude because of growing up trauma and educational trauma/parental. I do often have the internal monologue of " people tend to overuse emotion in the place of logic" to me i would of chosen different pathways to avoid unnecessary outcomes. I also spend alot of time thinking before doing so i get irritated by people who do something rash and then moan about the outcome, this is an example of logic. Autistics have a hard time connecting to their emotions because the framework in society to properly show them how to do it isn't there yet.
I'm not offended by very many things in life, in fact I usually call people out who are constantly throwing themselves onto the fainting couch at every little perceived injustice, but as a late diagnosed autistic, I find the title of your video extremely offensive.. it is maladaptive thinking to believe that one person is entirely to blame for the destruction of a relationship, that assumption alone should disqualify you from your profession. Autistic people actually have a great capacity for compassion and caring, but not at the expense of their own well-being. Many neurodiverse people are not abusive, they are simply trying to navigate a world that demands that THEY conform to it, when neurologically, they don't have the ability to. What needs to happen, is the world needs to in some ways conform to them, because believe it or not, this excessively neurotypical world does actually have the ability to do that!
I actually very much appreciate the distinction between "harm" and "abuse". I don't believe that everyone causing me harm is a bad, abusive person, and it would feel wrong to claim that. But I can now acknowledge the harm I am experiencing and respond appropriately, without vilifying anyone.
I am autistic and the man I love is also autistic. I was told he's abusing me but I know he really doesn't understand how he hurts me. He always seems confused. I was going to listen to my friends and leave him but I still love him. He told me he doesn't love me before but the things he does, like cuddling, asking me what I like, paying attention to the kind of foods I enjoy and then giving me that when I'm sad. Like a lot of it. He isn't a bad man. Even though he hurts me, I love him. How can I show him so he understands how he feels and how I feel better?
I recommend my course "How to Communicate in Your Neurodiverse Relationship." I designed it for my own neurodiverse relationships and family - it helps with the communication break-down in sharing thing like the impact that your husband's actions have on you. It guides you on how to have these conversations without triggering flooding, shut-down and overwhelm for both of you. jodicarlton.com/courses/
There are some very prejudiced opinions around this topic. You cannot generalise from personal experience. That is the faulty reasoning that lies behind all forms of prejudice. A group of people in a support group are likely to have similar experiences because they have sought out a support group: that is not a sample you can use to make generalisations about all autistic people. For example: as an Autistic person I have been physically assaulted by non-Autistic people without provocation on numerous occasions (I suspect I present as uncomfortable and that is picked up). I could make an argument that many autistic people report the same. I could find support in the theory of the double empathy problem where evidence shows that Allistic people are as bad at empathising and understanding Autistic people as we are them. I could use all this to confirm a growing bias that non-Autistic people are abusive. That bias might be understandable given my experience, but it would be wrong. That they were non-Autistic seems salient to me, but it is faulty reasoning to conclude that therefore all non-Autistic people are therefore violent. All I can really say is that in my experience I encountered individuals who were physically violent. It would certainly be ethically wrong to communicate my experience on social media as if it were a universal truth of all non-Autistic people. That is the line where bad personal experiences becomes a prejudice.
Thank you for this. It is my experience as well. I've been sexually, physically, and emotionally/psychologically abused since early childhood into adulthood, and all were by non-autistic people. I still have trust issues to this day and still live in fear, even though I'm married to a NT man... who isn't the nicest guy in the world.
And yet comments are mostly from nt wives who don’t assume the choice to stay with their partner (instead of leaving, stopping abuse and assuming responsibility). This is the word: nt are right, nd are wrong and abusive. No compatibility. Just don’t mix, then. It will feel better
I sometimes feel like I abuse my girlfriend. She's told me several times that she feels I'm not in touch with my emotions and dont empathize when she experiences highs or lows. She's even mocked my attempts to hug her and say comforting words when she expresses worry or sadness. I have started going to therapy, but she feels things are going to slow. I feel like the worst boyfriend in the world, making my partner feel alone in my company. I know emotional connections are important in a relationship, but I cant help but feel she should have picked up on these things when we first started going out several years ago. Coming up with these demands now feels a bit unfair... I feel like I suddenly need to change myself in order to keep her. I dont know what to do or feel.
I’m glad you have a therapist to help you process all of this. It sounds like your girlfriend is confused by your response to her emotions but she’s also being hurtful by mocking you when your try to connect with her. It’s not your job to match her highs and lows but to acknowledge them - she would likely benefit from therapy as well if she’s not already getting it.
@JodiCarlton Shes in therapy, and its probably the reason things have been bubbling to the surface. Which puts me in a awkward position, am I supposed to criticize what the therapist is suggesting, or the emotions that comes forth during her sessions? I feel Im the abusive one, the narcissist, the cold, emotionally distant freak. I guess Im going to talk about this with my own therapist in my next session. It just sucks. Communication is vital, and were having it with strangers almost behind the backs of each other. I have never felt this bad, trapped and hopeless in my life. And its all due to being in a relationship and starting therapy. At least those are the causes i find in my mind...
I am autistic and adhd. My husband also has adhd but now I started to suspect that he might be autistic, too. My main problem is that I am very direct in my communication, there is no to little room for interpretations. We have two small children and I often get everwhelmed. So, for example, I say to my husband not to say/ask anything from me at that moment because I have no resources left. Just please be quet for some time. And I think it should be very clear. But it never works. He has his reasons for talking and asking questions. I feel like he feels entiteled to my mental resources even if I have non left. When we talk after, he says that he understands. But come next day and he has his reasons to disregard my needs. And he thinks that if his reasons are good/logic enough, then he is right. But he has his reasons for everything and I have no way in keepping my physical or emotional boundries. Is there anything that could be done so that he would understand that his logic and needs or wishes doesn't go above all? I don't ask for much but sometimes I really need not be touched or spoken to.
It does sound like he isn’t recognizing your spoken boundaries. He could be autistic but what you’re describing could also be ADHD impulsivity and difficulty with inhibiting behavior in the moment. If he feels justified though because of his own logic then that’s more of an autistic trait (poor cognitive empathy/theory of mind). Instead of trying to make home understand what he’s doing that is problematic, I recommend that you focus on option for reinforcing your boundaries. You said you have now way to keep your boundary - take a closer look at that and how you can enforce those boundaries. It’s not about making him do something differently but determine what YOU will do if he doesn’t honor the boundary.
Perhaps sitting down to find a way to win:win. Ie he capably has needs to communicate and feels hurt when he is shut down. you feel overwhelmed . give him specific times he can connect with you so he doesn’t feel emotionally abandoned.
This entire discussion supports my argument that neurotypical and neurodiverse marriages should be avoided. Approximately 75% of them and in divorce and it is usually the neurotypical spouse who's hurt more. It has been my experience that can autistic person the people in their life are replaceable so as long as they are able to stick to their routines and patterns of behavior they don't care about getting a divorce. It was better if neurodivergent people partner with other neurodivergent people. More importantly neurodivergent people should not lie about whether or not they are autistic.
Many of us neurodivergent people didn’t know we were for most of our lives, and have been traumatised by relationships with neurotypical people. In my case to the extent that I will stay single for life (33 years and counting). Neurotypicals can inflict harm, humiliation and misery without intending to, but as the “normies” will assume they of course are always in the right. I gave up on relationships, completely and permanently while my former husband swanned off into another marriage, then 30 years later had 2 affairs and divorced his wife. But of course he’s the wise one who understands relationships, while I’m the deviant
As an autistic woman who has had hurtful experiences with a ND partner, co-worker, & bosses (4 different people), how is it better for me to be with any of those people as opposed to an alternative counterpart, NT or ND, who doesn't treat others that way. Autistic & ND people also suffer plenty of abuse from NT people as well. I do not lump all NTs into 1 asshole-tinged stereotype & think "they" should keep to themselves. I don't support abusive relationships, so I wouldn't suggest that it would be a positive situation if anyone, NT or ND, would be with a person who acts abusive to others. What I do takeaway from your statement is that it's alright if neurodivergents get abused or are put in harmful situations.
I know this one…it’s not exactly abuse, even if it appears as such. 99% chance it’s a defensive reaction to something being done TO us, BY that neurotypical spouse/partner, etc. I often feel victimized, and abused, by people close to me, who insist that I’m the problem, when I’m just minding my own business. I’m certain that we attract narcissistic people.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve definitely seen this quite a lot - autistic individuals in relationships with narcissists. There is a vulnerability there resulting from poor recognition of behaviors that are harmful or toxic. It’s easy to gaslight someone who is already trying to figure out social behavior. On the flip side when non toxic partners in a neurodiverse relationship misunderstand each other, it can seem like abuse to both. The impact on both is damaging so it’s imperative to gain insight and get clarity to minimize harm and foster connection.
What I found with my lovely ex-boyfriend was a lack of mentalisation difficulties. What I learnt is that if I didn't measure up to his standard, then I would be criticised and told many times that 'he can do better than me.' I was told if I didn't marry him soon, well he has many takers. He would tell me that I was 'not his type.' In my head, I was thinking why the naughty word are you with me. I would let him know that I didn't feel comfortable talking about it. Actually, his favourite thing to say to me was "you're so emotional" and "stop talking in your head." Then it occured to me that he doesn't understand emotions or feelings. Feelings are for weak people, he says. "Stop being sensitive, Joshua." Joshua, you are such a drama queen. You just love starting arguments. You make so much s**t up. Stop lying, Joshua, all you do is lie. I can't trust you." He locked me in the house for day, thought I was cheating after he cheated and blamed me. Now, his voice plays on repeat, as if I am listening to his constant insecure criticisms. Anyway, I still love him from afar, and I pray for him, prosperity, and that he is safe. ❤
Hi Joshua. This is narcissistic and extremely abusive. It’s not at all related to autism. Please get help healing from this and also to prevent any temptation of going back to this relationship if you are love bombed. You’re trauma bonded and that’s like a drug addiction. Get some professional help if you don’t have it already. ❤️🩹
I think that you’re failing to consider the extent to which someone can defend against the knowledge that they are being harmful to another person because it’s threatening to their identity or a status quo that benefits them. The defense speaks to some level of awareness of this threat. In your definition, a person could either feign ignorance or persist in failing to consider the pleas or words of their partner and be considered “harmful but not abusive” even though a clear pattern is present.
Yes, she was abusive due to her ASD, and it got worse after her official diagnosis because she "unmasked". If you tell them what they are doing is hurtful to you and they continue to do it then it's abuse, regardless of reason.
Maybe she is abusive. But I think thats a lot more dependent on context. Even telling someone their behaviour is hurtful (which should normally be okay to say) could become abusive on its own if abused and they are just to always comply, and you dont consider them also having their own needs and boundaries. That is something that has to go both ways. And generally both should care if they are hurting their partner. And sometimes two people are simply not compatible, even if none of them are directly abusive.
So many imbalances of human nature and relationships could be healed if someone, or couples, had access to counseling with people like you. But the sad truth is many of these tendencies are unrecognized because of poor education, and even when recognized many people, most people, cannot financially afford counseling.
Third point, it takes a lot of courage to call someone out on their behaviour and accepting their apology when you don't wanna hurt them hut we all need to hear criticism when it's important
That first woman's comment was taken from a google search. It's evident that it's not based on fact or even experience. This is sad, so very sad. In a perfect world autistic people wouldn't end up with someone like her, and her partner may not even be autistic. Anyone who knows anything about autism knows that the whole lack of empathy thing is completely wrong, and that autistic people actually feel more empathy than most neurotypical people. The problem isn't a lack of empathy but a lack of knowing exactly when or how to express that to someone who is expecting certain reactions, actions, or behaviors that signal to that neurotypical person that the autistic person feels empathy. Also, when you ask an autistic person if they know how it feels to be in your shoes you're likely not going to hear 'yes, I know what it's like to be in your shoes.' If people were truly honest with themselves, unless you have hade the exact same experience with the exact same circumstances with the exact same life experiences etc etc etc... you're not going to know what it's like exactly for that person. The majority of autistic people take these types of questions etc literally, myself included. Can we feel the emotion that person has? Likely, yes. Can we say we know exactly what they feel? No. it's an issue of being able to explain or describe that feeling to a neurotypical person that is the problem. We feel empathy, and in many cases it's the kind of empathy that can crush you. There are way too many 'autistic terms' being thrown around in that person's comment. She's been on a google search and engaging in confirmation bias. I'm not saying her experiences aren't true, but her lumping all autistic people under one umbrella is as dangerous as lumping people of any 'group' under one umbrella. If you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person. and there are scores of neurotypical people who lack empathy.
I have noticed a tendency towards physical violence in autistic men and women. I’ve often wondered if autistic men are at a higher likelihood to commit DV. Especially ones that look neurotypical. I think they can’t understand or they want things a certain way and lash out when things don’t go there way. I think communication problems play a role also. I also wonder what percentage of autistic people have been a victim of DV. I’ve noticed people on the spectrum tend have antisocial personality disordered people as friends and significant others. I think both not being neurotypical bonds them. Also they have trouble seeing danger. What is your opinion about this?
I've read more autistic people are more likely to end up in victims of DV than the other way around. As well Autistic people are represented in the criminal justice system. I was abused as kid for being autistic. If I was caught stimming my hand the teach crack my hands with a yard stick. If bounced in my desk the yard stick again. What this taught me was it I was to accept physical violence as normal. So in relationship my wife when she would hit me or throw things at me that was completely normal. So I'd let her hit me and throw things at me. I never set boundary and I was taught to hit for who I am is what NT do.
Sorry about the abuse you went through. I hope you are okay. Did your parents confront the teacher? Are you out of that DV situation? @@chrismaxwell1624
The research currently shows that autistic individuals are more likely to be victims of abuse than to be perpetrators. Here is one such study: www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00203/full Other research shows that violent autistic individuals are more likely to have other diagnoses including substance abuse and personality disorders (i.e. anti-social, narcissism). "7.3% of individuals with ASD were convicted of violent offenses. They noted that risk factors for violent offending included older age, male gender, a diagnosis of AS (as opposed to autistic disorder), and comorbid psychotic, substance use, and personality disorders. They commented that violent individuals with ASD had the same sociodemographic and comorbidity features as violent persons without ASD." www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4710161/#:~:text=They%20found%20that%207.3%25%20of,substance%20use%2C%20and%20personality%20disorders. In my opinion, it is these other disorders that are at the root of violence more than autism. Autism may contribute to a person's inability to regulate behavioral impulses in a moment of rage, but not strategic and calculated violence.
Thanks for responding. Thanks for the studies your response brought more clarification to this subject for me. I agree with your answer that there are other diagnoses at play with physically violent individuals with or without autisim. Yes when individuals with autisim act out physically it is more impulse than calculated. I have seen them even hurt themselves or destroy their own property in a moment of rage or fustration. Can they be taught to be less impulsive and reactive?@@JodiCarlton
A lot typical people are are not capable of insights into the behaviors and pattern that self destructive and harm others in relationships. I don't think that's autistic thing only. This is true of all people. Some people are more self aware and have insight into their own behaviors and others are blind to it. This applies to all people not just autistic people. So saying relationships with Autistic people are toxic or abusive because one attended a support group with other of similar experience is flawed. That could easily be the same as thinking people with blue eyes are toxic and abusive because you found support group of people that had abusive relationships with people with blue eyes. What more is if you go looking for specifics like that you will find it. What more is abuse is more likely to happen to autistic person from what I read.
it is understandable to focus on NT/AS from the female POV, the NT. It was a mild let down, however, to not find ANY information on men who have to deal with an Aspie live-in girlfriend. oh well,,,,
Hi James. I understand your frustration. I work with a lot of men who are in relationships with Aspie women. I don’t have many videos or blogs specifically for men but a lot of what is on this channel is geared towards either gender. A lot of the same applies to both genders but not everything. It’s a goal to get more content produced for men! Thanks for the reminder.
This video feels Just existing to clear missunderstand about autistic people but it dosen't really give more examples on how autistic people can be abusive like what are the traits that make them abusive intentional or not because red flags are helpful to notice then solving those issues by giving solutions to solve those problems.(I say this as an autistic teenager)You could give a story where the relationship failed and then another story on relationship got saved.
What a disgusting comment that woman made. We as autists have much better theory of minds about allistic individuals then allistics do for autistic individuals. I am unintentionally gaslight DAILY in my interactions with allistics. The difference is no one believes when we speak out
I agree about the disgusting comment but I don’t agree that autistics have better theory of mind than allistics. I think this varies by individual. Allistics definitely struggle to understand the mind and world of autistics but in my experience allistics are more capable of recognizing that an autistics truly has a different perspective - it’s a real thing - whereas many autistics don’t recognize that the a different perspective is possible.
Covert narcissists NEVER think they're abusive. They think they're perfect and the people they are harming "are out to get" them. They do mental gymnastics to make themselves always the victim even when they're the perpetrator.
I was tryna get close to a guy it took me only a couple interactions with him to understand something was happening that i was missin hes a great man very sweet then hes got another side that seems to dominate because i realized last week hes tryna get into a pattern or something hes just crossed boundaries that i wouldn't let another cross and his lack of accountability for his bs is really the problem i can work with a mf thats gonna keep it 100 he is very insucre and he is a sexy mf lol the last thing i told him was this It aint nothin wrong with u but if u dont believe that there is nothin i can do we only were seeing eachother off and on for about 3 mo i did try tho i hope he finds someone more his pace he deserves that❤
M’am, have you ever been in a long term relationship with a man on the spectrum? Have you read the experiences of women who have? Sure, one story is just a story. But it’s incredibly invalidating to people whose lives have been sucked dry after years of emotional abuse trying to love these people who repeatedly hurt us time and time again despite verbalizing how it hurts us. How is that not abuse!?
If you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person. I was sexually, physically, mentally and emotionally abused by non-autistic people from very early childhood into adulthood. So does that make all non-autistic people child molesters, rapists, or abusers? You had one experience with one autistic person, and now you lump "These people" together. So am I to think, then, based on your take of things, that you are also an abuser, rapist, etc because you're not autistic? Autistic people are neither angels or demons, and like non-autistic people, who are neither angels nor demons, shouldn't be judged by the actions of a few.
@@ellaboobella8770This is logical autistic thinking. NT don’t function like that (even if they “pretend” they do and brag about it in school and media). I wish this lady’s experience had been better but I acknowledge she chose to stay in the relationship. I have learnt (to my expenses and through suffering and broken dreams that loving someone or being in love doesn’t mean you can share your life with him/her. I cannot share my life with the person I love and I cannot share my life with my parents either. I felt abused as long as I stayed in the relationship, abuse stopped when I chose to be on my own. Life is very lonely: autistic people know and many accept it. NT? Complaining and blaming others for not giving them the love they “deserve”. We deserve respect at work and in the streets, we have no “right” to “love” and kindness.
..sorry but i agree. Who diagnose others as narcs do u think? ND ppl. Victims groups are full of ND ppl who were discarded. & coathes/online psychologists i assume that they target ND ppl by talking about npd the evil. Niw i wish you the best. Same way i would be "abused" by npd partner/parent same & worse by an asd. Bcs he lacks empathy. & beleives he s an empath. & smart & gets every single word subjectively. You could be some exception idk. But only that u have 6 things & the other 2 things..well by definition i see unfairness. I was w adhd bf but not for marriage/ discussion / decisions / someone who feels my emotions & his words/ideas express him.
It is annoying how the physical act or the person who desires the physical act are always expected to compromise. Rarely is it said (out loud) that the both partner need to compromise. You cant force people to have sex but we can force people to give up sex? It doesnt matter if the sex desiring person is suffering mentally and emotionally.
Yes, we can expect people to give up sex, and to my knowledge, no one has ever died from not having sex. You may struggle with disappointment, frustration, anger, and a lot of other emotions as a result of decreased sex with a partner, so get to a therapist who can help you process your feelings. However, no person is ever entitled to to another person's body, and no partner should ever be expected to "compromise" by giving access to their body. Sex can be a wonderful, intimate, experience for partners to share, but it can also be painful and distressing for many reasons - it is not a reasonable compromise to expect a partner to experience pain or distress. There are many, many, many variables that contribute to sexual desire, including physical, emotional, and psychological safety. Additionally, the body may also experience extreme discomfort related to sensory processing, hormonal changes, stress, fatigue, and so much more. If your partner "compromises" to provide sex to you without feeling sexual desire themselves (for whatever reason), then you are essentially using their body to masturbate - which is a bit disturbing don't you think? Instead of focusing on not getting the sex that you want, take some time to understand why your partner is uncomfortable with sex or has a decreased sex drive.
หลายเดือนก่อน +2
Was diagnosed with autism 60 years ago in grade one. Never trust us.
Oh I don't agree with that - many autistics are quite trustworthy. Personality and character development which is unrelated to autism also play a huge role in trustworthiness.
I think you’ve met many autistics who are not as you describe. The ones who behaved this way are the ones that made a negative impact on you (and are memorable because of your distress). Autistic individuals are prevalent and statistically speaking you’ve definitely had positive experiences with them as well. We can’t define an entire neurotype based on the behaviors of some. I’ve met thousands in my career and many are delightful, kind, compassionate, and respectful people!
Hey everyone! Here's how you can get even more clarity about autism and neurodiversity in your life and relationship!
Take a quiz: jodicarlton.com/take-a-quiz/
Take a course: jodicarlton.com/courses/
Listen to the podcast: jodicarlton.com/podcast/
Read the blog: jodicarlton.com/blog/
Attend a support group: jodicarlton.com/groups/
Request a private consultation for coaching: jodicarlton.com/booking/
The problem is that when you tell your partner that they are hurting you, and they keep repeating the behaviours, then it does turn into abuse. No matter how hard it is for them to understand why they are hurting you. They have been told they do, and that should be enough for them not to want to keep doing it. But when they don’t, they are actually abusing you even though it’s not intentional. Abuse is not always intentional. And if we do not call out abuse when it’s abuse, we become enablers and victim blamers.
I like to emphasize the *responsibility* piece. If a person is able to take appropriate responsibility in other areas of his life, in other relationships, and chooses not to take appropriate responsibility to grow in relationship with his partner, it then becomes a *choice that he is responsible for*. By not taking the responsibility to seek help to change, he is choosing to cause harm, even if he may not have the capacity to comprehend how his behaviors are destructive.
He has made a choice not to take responsibility.
@@juliekong5013absolutely! Yes, you say it so well. This is another part of it that is equally valid and important. I think what I said about being told that you are hurting your partner, but continuing to do so, is just another part of being responsible or taking accountability and responsibility.
Just remember telling doesn't mean that they understand.
@@chrismaxwell1624sure, but how far is it ok to go without responsibility and accountability? If we don’t hold grown up people accountable for their actions we become enablers. If I tell a grown up person «you hurt me/it hurts me when you say/do xyz». Do they not also have a responsibility when it comes to changing behaviours then, and to do what they can to understand what you mean when you say that? There are things that can be difficult, but this is not impossible. If we think that then I think that would be ablist.
this is true. However, I do agree that it then becomes important to be curious. Not understanding is not a reason to dismiss or ignore a partner's stated experience.
I was with you until you said that abuse is only abuse if the abuser knowingly commits the abuse. As a survivor of generational family abuse, I can tell you that my abuser doesn’t believe they’re abusive. What would you call emotional/mental/physical harm to an individual in that situation? If it’s repetitive? Or it’s only once, but is traumatic? If you tell them it hurts, but they become defensive or use calm & logic to rationalize it’s about your behavior? That’s abuse. Regardless of what my abuser says.
Hi Kelli. I'm glad you commented. To clarify, I am in no way dismissing the painful experiences of people like yourself who experience harm. It can be devastating. However, feeling harmed does automatically mean someone is being abusive (sometimes it does, but, there are so many reasons why someone can experience feeling harmed by a person's behavior/actions that aren't because abuse is actually happening. So, to answer your question, there is not a one-size fits all definition for what is abusive behavior and what is not. Sometimes a one-time traumatic hurt is simply tragic and unfortunate, but not necessarily abuse. Sometimes repetitive hurt is rooted in differences in needs and preferences, but is not actually abuse. My goal here is not to minimize the horrors of true abuse - it is to highlight the importance of using caution labeling a behavior or person as "abusive." is a catch-all for behavior that feels hurtful. Just like the term narcissism has been watered down so much that it is common for people to say "we're all a little narcissistic," when this is absolutely not true. If we label all behaviors that result in harm to others as "abusive," we are all "a little bit abusive," which is also absolutely untrue. Hope that clarifies things a bit.
I agree with you...abuse is abuse whether or not it's intentional or not intentional and that's what is the difference of how you deal with the abusive behavior in the person who is causing it.
@@JodiCarltonI disagree also abuse is abuse. It's not always meant or even recognized by the abuser but it does not mean that the BEHAVIOR is not there. Some people might not know they are acting out abusive I agree but it does not mean that they are not abusive. Just that they might not be aware of there abusive behavior. Just like an addict might not realize they have an addiction but it does not cover up the fact that they have an addiction.
You’re correct. If they are using you to meet their needs and not caring to meet yours, that’s “knowing.”
Its amazing how many of us on the receiving end of these kinds of behaviours have to suck it up because they have autism and its not their fault. Oh pleeeeze - it still feels like crap, and are you then having to enable and give in to them because they can't help it, in the meantime feeling hurt and unseen or heard yourself. So I hear you x
Everyone makes mistakes. However, once one party tells the other that the behavior is harmful, then there’s no excuse. Then it is abuse.
I agree. Once there is awareness that harm is being done, if the pattern continues then it is a choice to do harm. The caveat there is capacity - if someone is not capable of changing a behavior because of neurological or perceptual differences, then it’s not abuse (ex. Being alexithymic and therefore not intuitively aware of a partner’s emotions; forgetting to follow through at times due to sensory and cognitive overload; having a meltdown from brain overwhelm)
@@JodiCarlton heart breaking for both sides
@@JodiCarltonI disagree. They don't have to understand our boundaries in order to accept them. My Aspie friend kept on overstepping my boundaries. I've told him, he couldn't understand. He made fun of my boundaries (gaslighing) so I kicked him to the curb. He had some very nasty narcissistic traits as well. I don't accept abuse, wether or not it is intentional or not. I have complex trauma and I need to have SAFE people in my life. He clearly wasn't.
@@marjol3inwhat your "friend" did wasn't what Jodi was talking about. When he made fun of you, was he overwhelmed, as Jodi said about as the exception? As an autist myself, I can tell you without hesitation that if he was making fun of you, he absolutely wasn't overwhelmed. He may have been lacking the executive function required to stop himself from doing what you told him not to do (which sounds a lot like ADHD - maybe he has both), but he wasn't overwhelmed.
Understandably, you don't understand the autistic mind. It's different to neurotypical minds because the brain has "scrambled wiring." Autism is a neuro-developmental disability. Those who don't have it can only understand it academically at the most.
To help you to understand what Jodi is saying, picture a large weight that's suspended by many ropes - each large enough to hold the weight. For a neurotypical person, maybe 5% of the ropes get cut per day, but they also get replaced at the same rate, so everything is OK. For an autistic person, more ropes get cut per day than the replacement rate if they do the same things as the neurotypical person. At some point in time, it's down to one rope holding the weight. Is it the fault of the weight that it falls to the ground when the last rope gets cut? Or is it the fault of all the people who were cutting too many ropes? The ropes are our ability to cope. The weight is our mental state. Those who cut the ropes are the stressors in life. Those who replace the cut ropes are the things that replenish us. Bringing it back from the abstract (yes, some of us have learned abstraction and can be good at it - it's a spectrum), when a person comes home on the verge of being utterly overwhelmed, with only one string remaining, and he finds an unexpected bill in the mailbox (while the bank balance is already low), the kids are screaming (the noise of which is horrendous to his sensory sensitivities), and his wife angrily accuses him of being a bad father for getting home two hours late (not knowing that he was berated by his boss for doing something wrong when the boss didn't bother to communicate the requirements properly, and he had to work back two hours later to redo the job, or he'd be fired), is it actually abusive if he literally has no more strength left to quell the urge to stand up for himself against what his wife said (which seems reasonable to her, but to him, he has been slaving away, being emotionally abused at work for lower pay than he deserves, just so he can give the kids the best start at life possible - absolutely not a bad father), and loudly growls at the kids to be quiet because he can't even hear himself think? Is that really abuse? Or is it simply someone who has been pushed too far and verbally snaps back at "the last straw"? This is the life of many autistic men, trying hard to keep their jobs, trying hard to make ends meet, coming home every day on the verge of being utterly overwhelmed, and their wives and kids fail to understand how close to snapping back at someone he really is, but running headlong to cut that final rope. Have a good hard think about your answer and consider how you would feel in his position, coming home from overwhelming troubles and frustrations to more troubles (including what you consider to be false accusations) when you only have one rope left holding the weight, and that rope is already fraying...
I agree. How many times would I need to hear, “you’re hurting me” to want to understand why and how to change, so I don’t hurt that person? 1 time. With my ex, I said those words and many more, THOUSANDS of times. He had intent. The intent not to change not matter the harm caused.
Thank you for clarifying this Jodi. EXCELLENT video.
I agree with your definition of abuse. I feel for the women who have been hurt in relationships with inflexible men.
It's hard to distinguish bad human behavior and autism, but there IS a difference. NTs and NDs are both capable of abuse, and we don't lump all NTs or all NDs together as abusive.
A lot of the traits of autism can seem monotropic and selfish that are true traits of autism. Like, need for routine, behaviors that seem like OCD and perfectionism that they just can't seem to overcome (the meticulousness she describes), the appearance of lack of empathy, etc.
The lack of empathy is false. We know that autistics might have trouble recognizing the emotions of others, but do experience empathy once it's explained to them.
They can have a lot of good traits too like dedication, honesty, and loyalty for example.
It can be difficult to distinguish bad human behavior from autistic traits of inflexibility and what seems like selfishness, but there is a distinction. Autistics are perfectly capable of autonomy, self-awareness, and improvement.
My husband and I give and take where we can. There are certain elements of my autism that are too difficult to overcome, but areas where I can use my autistic traits of "acts of service" to show I love him, or being flexible where I can be etc.
thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with all of this. Agreed, agreed, agreed!!
Would you agree that we feel empathy on a very deep level, but explaining that to someone who needs the validation of that explanation often falls short? That's how I see it anyway. I won't speak for other autistic people, but in my case I've been shattered and shut down, crushed sometimes by empathy I feel for a person, or even an animal. Sometimes I have trouble trying to convey that empathy to someone who is looking for that comfort. I understand, and I feel it, and I even want to fix it.. but don't know how to convey that information, and my attempts to try and 'fix' whatever it is, to 'help' often backfires on me. Over my life I've found that keeping my mouth shut most of the time has the least negative effects, even if I really want to console or help them.
Abuse may not be a trait of autism, but the amount of nt women married to an asd spouse I’ve seen with many chronic health concerns, anxiety depression ptsd and complex ptsd. They may not mean mean it but the impacts remain the same. This video was hard to watch as a therapist
No one needs a quack.
Yep! Doesn't matter if the wound was intentional or not, the victim bleeds the same. If the woman feels damaged, it's just as valid regardless of what the husband is diagnosed with. The damage is done.
Thank you for this Jodi. I’ve only in this past several months had a name for my experience. I’ve been married for over 40 years to a very good, bright, eccentric man. I love him. No diagnosis but I believe he is on the scale. He agrees. We’ve had some brief discussions and he recognizes that he has a different kind of brain. I think it’s been a relief for us both to have a considered “label”. I’m working on my own behaviour and on a weekly and sometimes daily basis I can be hurt emotionally. I remind myself that his ways are mostly unintentional. I acknowledge to him now that his level of discomfort is real for him. He can come across as self centred but now I realize he’s anxious, uncomfortable, physically in discomfort in many environments. A work in progress but he and we are worth it. I have had to make a life for myself over our whole relationship or I would have “perished”. Not his fault but having a name for it all has been a huge help. I try now to communicate clearly and this is a learning process too. I’m an emotionally intelligent person, my husband is not so much. He’s a good person. He’s very bright and intellectual. Very capable so my emotionality at times he doesn’t understand and he knows too, intellectually that he benefits from that just as I benefit from his resourcefulness.
so many people are fearful of the "labels," but really it's a framework to help us understand ourselves and one another. It sounds like you and your husband are both making an effort and that is so important! Just today on a support group call, 2 different autistic men became tearful in describing exactly what you's said about your husband feeling anxious, uncomfortable, and in physical discomfort - they expressed feeling shame about this and their other difficulties. It's so helpful when each partner is able to acknowledge and recognize that the other partner is having a legitimate experience that is so different from their own.
I so agree with the comment quoted at the beginning!
What I heard you say was. If my partner tells me I hurt them by criticizing them and I feel like it wasn’t my intention I will do it again..
so basically even when I say you hurt me, because you don’t believe it personally that means keep doing it?
That sounds like intention.
Autistic people rarely intend to hurt, but the outcomes can be the same as if they did. I'm not sure I agree that intent is required for harmful behavior to be called abuse or neglect. Regardless, that's semantics. The outcome for the victim can be the same.
I agree that the outcome can be the same. So anyone who is in a relationship where they are experiencing harm needs to assess the intent as well as the ability, willingness, and motivation of a partner to learn and implement changes. The harm done is not in question, and it is critical to determine how to stop or minimize the hurt. However, labeling someone as "abusive," is a very strong term that carries inaccurate character implications when there is no intent to harm. This is also an extremely damaging accusation to make that can also have devastating results. In my opinion, this is the abusive behavior because there is typically a vindicating need for validation that involves an intent to judge, shame, vilify, guilt, and rebuke the autistic person by assigning the label of "abuser," or"abusive." It's not just semantics - words carry powerful weight. Meeting hurt with hurt is not the answer.
Asperger’s people don’t take accountability for their abusive, neglectful behavior, that means they’ll never change. And even worse -they blame their partner for all their problems. There was no hope with my ex and I am so happy I left him. They are not worthy of an empathic, caring partner trying to save the relationship, when all they do is think about themselves.
Thank you. If someone is a narcissist people understand the toxicity and don't hesitate to call out abuse. Autism? Oh you should just be understanding. NO. they have to work at a relationship as well. Is it work? I'm sure it is. I've had to adjust to them. That's work too and I have mental health issues as well. It's not an excuse. And is the harm intentional? Maybe not, but here's the problem- once you TELL them how you feel and they laugh at it or disregard it? Yes. abusive.
ok but heres my question
how much of that could be fixed by figuring out how to explain in a way thats understood and therefore not dismissed
if its dissmissed after that then thats another thing
but how much of its dismissal to be hurtful vs dismisful because i dont see why this is important to you
@@morganpauls1873 I really think it depends on the individual. Some people lack empathy for other reasons such as a co-morbid personality disorder. As to the messaging other folks, I leave that to experts. Some want to change, some don't. Like all disorders, some use it as an excuse in relationships. None of us have that luxury if we truly desire a healthy relationship. Desire plays a role.
@@reneelibby4885 ok but how are you suposed to just want to change a thing if you dont know what or why that things is hurtful to another
and what do you do in the case where the expression of that hurtful behavior is neccessary to maintaining/returning to your own stable state?
how do you deal with it being both hurtful and neccessary?
and how do you separate what is neccessary but hurtful from what is both hurtful and uneccessary?
My wife is not interested in anything listening or reading or talking about this subject. Yet she continues acting or I should say lack of, the same way until the point I feel I have to disengage totally out of selfprotection. In my belief, it is and feels like abuse.
My ex would always promise she’s going to get therapy & acknowledges she might be on the spectrum. Thing is she would never follow through on getting the help. She used to get treatment for what she thought was OCD, but she was being treated for the wrong diagnosis. She doesn’t have OCD, she’s Autistic
Are you taking on any clients? My ex partner definitely has ASD level 1 but something else is off about her. I had to walk away bc nothing was changing even though she promised me for years she’d get a therapist & things would be better. Thank you! I laid out a clear road map for her on what I needed from her. I also explained to her in great detail on why her behavior is harming me, why it was so hurtful to me. Yet despite being aware of it, she’d still continue the bad behavior for years. We’d have the same conversations over & over yet nothing was improving. Then when I’d tell her I’m done & I’m leaving, that’s when she’d lovebomb me, promise that she’ll do whatever it takes but then of course, would never follow through on it. Back to the same cycle.
I’ve learned to set boundaries with my best friend, who claims that they’re autistic. In the past they used to shut down everything I liked, if they hated something I enjoyed, they’d give me a whole lecture about WHY they hated it and thus I’d stop talking about it. It made me feel guilty and depressed that so many things I loved, they hated and I couldn’t enjoy them without their constant reminders about they the things sucked.
It made me feel worthless.
I finally TOLD them how that made me feel- explaining at length how this cuts off communication, if all they had to talk to me about was what they hated about what I loved- then how are we ever going to have fun?
How can we be friends? What’s enjoyable about being together if it’s constantly about what they hate about my interests?
Also, them hating something, **doesn’t trump why I love it** and I deserve to be able to enjoy something in the moment because I like it- and doing so- doesn’t invalidate why they hate it, or their feelings.
I told them, if there’s something that you hate about something, I’ll listen to your feelings about it but I will listen only once, you do not need to *constantly remind me why you hate it* every time I’m enjoying it. Your feelings have been heard, and I remember them, but that doesn’t mean that I am not allowed to ever enjoy that thing in my life, ever again.
If you are, my friend, you’ll respect that I take joy in something in particular, and that it means something to me, “just as I do for you.”
“There will be times when you like something and I don’t like, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to bring it up while you’re in the middle of enjoying yourself, because you ARE enjoying yourself- and I want you to revel in it and be happy!.”
They are loving something and that’s great.
Example; Durians. I HATE them, but they LOVE them! They know I hate them, but I also love- that they love them more- than I hate them. So I’m always smiling with amusement when they are enjoying them, because I respect and even am impressed they like those. Then I go and eat something I personally enjoy.
My best friend (of over 18 years now) respected the conversation we had and made that choice; to start respecting my love of something- more than their hate of it. This resonated very strongly. They loved the fact that I liked something, more than they hated something. That changed the language of how we even talk about something we don’t like- it’s framed from a sense of awe and respect of the other that they CAN enjoy it, and seeing why as something fascinating and impressive. Like some kind of Feat of Strength!
Of course we find things we BOTH enjoy too- but that initial confrontation/conversation was important and was the defining factor over whether or not we stayed friends, to this day they are undiagnosed but they do have many other signs of neurodivergence, as do I- but this is how we ensured our difficulties didn’t hinder our ability to be kind and loving to one another.
They are one of my closest and oldest friends and I honestly see us growing to be old together~
And still eating different cakes, I’ll have my straw berry and they’ll eat durian flavoured ~
I am not so sure that my story fits with what you've said. My step dad when I was young was undiagnosed asperger's at the time and he used to look through the key hole when I was getting changed, until I caught him. After that he refused to speak to me for weeks, which made me so upset and angry that I had to leave the house until he'd be in bed, then come home and spend time with my mum. He also had a smug look on his face whenever I tried to engage him in conversation or ask him to stop what he was doing. If that's not abuse I don't know what is. I understand that anyone, regardless of whether they are on the spectrum, can abuse others. To say that all people on the spectrum are just misreading the situation or that it's secretly about differences in needs and preferences - is giving some of them a hall pass to destroy others. That man knew what he was doing.
I actually had to stop watching this video half way through in tears because of the trauma.
What your stepfather did was sexual assault and very traumatic for you. No one gets a hall pass for abuse. I’m not at all saying that “all” people on the spectrum are innocent or abuse. What I am saying is that not all autistic individuals are abusive. Abuse is not a trait of autism. It is a trait of human beings. Some abusive people are autistic. Some are not autistic. When people claim that autistics are abusive as a core trait aren’t we actually abusing the millions of autistic people who are in no way whatsoever toxic, dangerous people?
I don’t think he’s on the spectrum I think he might have traits of ASPD.
@@sds6303 While he was never officially diagnosed back then, I 100% believe he was on the autism spectrum. My Dad had ASPD/NPD so I know what that's like. Both people abused me but in distinctively different ways. My mum made a case for the stepdad to stay after what he did, by telling me he was just scared and that's why he was smiling. But there was no communication to clarify that because of autism and being raised by clueless parents. God damn :( My half brother is pretty much a clone of his father and he doesn't talk to me. It makes me wonder what his dad is telling him about me - and that increases my anxiety even more.
@@sds6303 I wrote my reply extensively but it must have deleted it and I'm too emotionally tired to go over it again. My bio dad had ASPD and I know that abuse well. My stepdad had autism. The end.
My partner of 12 years is autistic and it is extremely difficult to live with , she becomes ver aggressive over small things that the me and others is a total over reaction, has a strong sense of how in her mind people should behave and act . So spends most her days shouting about of at people for not doing what she thinks is the correct want to do things , this pushes people away. She is very controlling in most situations . This is very difficult , as she speaks for people and butts in constantly . I could go on but it is very hard. She knows she is autistic but believes the world needs to change for her not the other way around
Unfortunately one of the effects of neuraffirming care/therapy is to tell the ND person they don’t have to change and others have to accept them as they are, that others should conform to their needs and that asd makes them special . this breeds narcissism. Both Nd and NT both need to be considerate for any relationship to be healthy
Just because someone doesn't intend to be abusive, doesn't mean it doesn't land as feeling abusive to the person on the receiving end. I was in a relationship with a person with high functioning autism and sometimes his verbal lashings out when having a meltdown would feel abusive. I didn't feel seen or really heard because everything seemed to be about their perspective and their needs. I ended up just not even bothering to seek to get situations resolved, or try and be heard because it would all then land on how I was being a bad person, or being the one to blame for everything. You end up just not bothering and then the rot sets in, and for me it did.
Yes I totally agree with you! For this reason I teach autistic individuals how impact matters regardless of their intent and even when it doesn’t make sense to them. Many can learn to have cognitive empathy or at least to recognize that a partner’s experience is valid for them albeit very different from their own. What I do not want though is to label these individuals as “abusive” because this term carries weight about a person’s character and integrity. Abusers don’t care if they do harm and frequently do harm intentionally. That is not the case for autistics who genuinely don’t intend harm and are confused by accusations of abuse. There ARE autistic abusers who do intend harm or don’t care if they cause harm - these people don’t need to be lumped into the same category.
@@JodiCarlton I am an autistic woman married to an autistic man. Our daughter is also diagnosed autistic. My husband is "hypo" in autistic traits, and I am "hyper" (heightened sensory sensitivity, empathic, deep feel and thinking, want physical closeness, etc). So, this has understandably created conflict in our relationship. We've been married for almost 15 years. It gets really confusing when there is a mix of times when his hurtful/harmful relational behavior seems to sometimes be purely due to his autistic traits, and at other times he is actually consciously being hurtful/harmful and abusive. Since he's become aware of being autistic (about 5 years ago) his hurtful/harmful behaviors have drastically increased and intensified. He seems to use the autism diagnosis and his autistic profile as a "cover" for emotionally abusive behavior.
But the impact of discovering I'm autistic and learning so much about it has made me even More empathetic and putting in more effort to understand him! So discovering how autism is impacting us in our relationship has just furthered the divide. That's not how I thought it would go. I thought this discovery would help us. Instead, he puts in less effort to understand or be empathetic to me, and I put in more! One of the worst things is how hard it has become to be able to know when he's being abusive and when it's just his autism traits. He is capable of picking and choosing his behaviors. He can mask and do it well (I'm terrible at masking) so I just have ended up so confused and feeling emotionally abused whether he's technically consistently being abusive 100% of the time or not. I am also autistic, but extremely concerned and caring toward other people's experiences and emotions, and make efforts toward awareness/insight and personal responsibility in relationships.
How do you address a relationship or individual where a person's behaviors are due to a combo of autism and abusiveness. I'm looking for help, and am leery of trusting anybody to help because other therapists have made it so much worse in the past. This isn't a situation where I can protect myself by leaving, and deal with quite a bit of other disability which makes the changes I want to make in my personal life a lot more challenging.
You need to be aware of the fact that a lot of autistic people are actually abusive. I have had abusive autistic family members, romantic partners and coworkers.
Some of them are nice people too. Honestly. Feel free to avoid autistic people like you would any allistic person who is abusive. A disability is not an excuse.
Yes, I agree!! Abuse is abuse. Autism is autism. One is not directly related to the other, but a person can be both. For my entire career, even when I have worked with brain injury, bipolar, schizophrenia, depression, anxiety, trauma, and addictions, to name a few, I have always told my clients that their challenges are not justification for harming someone else.
Yeah...no.
I'm sick of all the videos and articles I come across CONSTANTLY defending this behavior just because they "aren't doing it intentionally".
Screw that I've been in a relationship with and then married to this BS for 15years not realizing WTH was going on until I really started to study this phenomenon independently.
I don't give up easy and have a ton of empathy by nature but this is ACCUMULATIVE and it's killing me, which is even less acceptable now because now we have a beautiful child who deserves to grow up in a HEALTHY environment. Planing my exit for our safety. A.S. CAN be ASSholes too.
Hello, and I'm so glad you shared what you're experiencing. Yes, autistics can be assholes - that's a human problem and autistics do NOT get a "pass" for being abusive. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that unintentionally harmful behavior is okay. It is important for autistic individuals to self-reflect and gain insight into their own behavior to determine if change is possible - and then to take efforts to make changes. Sometimes an autistic person cannot self-reflect effectively or cannot make changes (these are executive functions of the brain). Sometimes change is not possible for reasons related to an autistic person's neurological wiring, sensory processing, and nervous system activation. This is not abuse, but is a dysfunction of the brain (neurodivergent individuals have varying degrees of disability with executive functions). It is important for an autistic individual to be honest about their own capacity and ability to make changes - saying "I can't do that," isn't abusive if it's quite simply the honest truth. It is actually abusive to label someone who has a cognitive impairment as "abusive" when their impairment is the source of harm. That does NOT mean that the behavior isn't destructive and causing serious harm - a non-autistic partner's wellbeing and quality of life matters too! If it is behavior that cannot be changed, and it is causing harm, a partner who is being harmed has to decide if they have a dealbreaker or if the harm can be tolerated long-term without significant impact to overall quality of life. Sometimes no matter how much we want to be in a relationship, it is misaligned if one or both partner's are significantly harmed and change is not likely or not possible due to neurological limitations.
Unfortunately, autistic people are drawn to empathetic people because empathetic people can help them interpret other people's feelings and tend to be very loving and forgiving. Unfortunately this frequently contributes to a pattern where if you forgive an autistic person for hurting you, they think it's okay to do it again as long as they apologize.
It can actually be dangerous for a neurotypical person to be married to an autistic person when they have issues with rage. Rage can frequently turn into physical abuse whether it's intentional or not.
Until we find better treatment modalities for autism I again state that neurodivergent/autistic people should not be married to neurotypical people.
Wow. Lots of hate here. Imagine if I had cancer instead. I said it.
@@leoelantra🙋🏼♀️
You then become an adulteress and anyone you try to get with will also become involved with adultery. Don’t make a bad situation worse!
There is an intersectionality between autism and gender roles. In western society, especially, men are often not taught much emotional intelligence while women usually are. This puts men at a disadvantage regarding interpersonal communication. If the man is also autistic, then he is doubly disadvantaged.
The effects of gender roles on the autism community are apparent in that autistic women are usually better at masking (acting "normal") and understanding their peers (emotional intelligence). In fact, some autistic women are so skilled at behaving "normally" that an autism diagnosis can become more difficult.
Autistic men are given more slack to be less emotional, and many traits of autism may be mistaken for "extreme maleness" (there was even a theory that autism was an 'extremely male" brain). As a result, it's not uncommon for such men to not be taught much emotional intelligence or interpersonal communication and therefore they lack the skills to maintain relationships with others, especially in a romantic or familial level.
It's important to know that autism isn't about "lacking" (deficits). Rather it's simply a different neurotype. We can feel all the same range of emotions as anyone else, but we do so differently. As a result, when we encounter a person who isn't autistic we can encounter what is known as the "double empathy" problem.
Double Empathy theory suggests that people with different experiences of the world have difficulty empathizing with each other, and that this is a mutual problem. In other words, both sides and neither side are at fault. Recognizing this phenomenon can improve communication effectiveness.
All that being said, autism is just a neurotype, much like neurotypical ("normal") is a neurotype. It's simply the operating system (neurotype) for your brain (computer). Autistics may use Linux while the rest of the world uses Windows. These different systems can do the same things - documents, databases, programs, music, etc. They can also allow harm to occur by being susceptible to bad ideas or habits, drawing the wrong conclusions, becoming entitled, or a whole host of other errors in thinking, understanding, or behaving. Some may even intentionally be malicious towards others. Which neurotype you're born with has no bearing on the type of character you have, much like which operating system is installed on your computer has no bearing on what the user chooses to do with it.
I'd like to offer condolences for all who were hurt by a partner who did more harm than good. Autistic or not, bad behavior has no place in a healthy relationship and any partner who doesn't understand this isn't ready for a relationship.
Yes, yes, yes!! Thank you for sharing your thoughts and perspective!
This is a great comment.
My Saint Bernard didn’t mean to bite my whole face and leave teeth marks in my forehead and chin, but he did. I am weary of being married to a St Bernard who is not capable of the insight necessary not to bite me.
I understand how you feel and this is a powerful analogy that you've shared. Safety is one of our most basic needs as a human being, ahead of connection, intimacy, and love. If leaving the marriage is not something you want to do (or can do), then focus on your safety - if he is not capable of being insightful, then it's really important that you recognize his inability.- no matter how much you want him to change, if he's not wired to be different, or if he doesn't want or care to learn about his deficits, then he's not going to improve. Grieve it (you may need help with this with a therapist or coach like me), and then assess the life and relationship you actually have (versus the one you wanted) for what you can do to be safe and even fulfilled in some ways. It's easier said than done, and is a painful reality for you and many others like yourself.
The answer to my question and exactly what I am trying to accomplish. Let her go which is difficult living in one house and 3 children.@@JodiCarlton
Your analogy doesn't make sense.
1. Based on your comment, you're trying to compare a human to an animal
2. A dog is a different species than a human
3. Why did your dog bite you? What did you do to get bit?
4. Dogs are a whole nother species than a human.
5. I train dogs and they have their own personalities.
6. Don't try to attribute dog behavior into human behavior. It's not the same.
7. Your own dog will only bite you if you fail to recognize there agitation.
8. Dogs have their own language and it's up to you to be able to recognize or be able to interpret how they feel.
9. It's very rare that your own dog is going to bite you unless you failed to respect their boundaries or how they feel.
10. Trying to compare your dog biting you to human behavior is ignorant
@@Murlocky82 You are missing the point. The point is that even if the behavior is accidental or unintentional, it still hurts.
Living with an Aspergers husband is so draining and you are on your own. Loose yourself into there world. Abuse with no remorse.
Hi Debbie. You are not alone in how you feel and what you have experienced.
Neurodiverse partnerships can be so confusing, painful, and draining when basic expectations and preferences are so very different for each of you. Each relationship is different, though. Abuse or lack of remorse is not inherently a characteristic of autism or neurodiverse relationships. Some people struggle more than others with theory of mind (cognitive empathy) which is the ability to understand the perspective of others. Sometimes a neurotypical partner will have difficult with this as much as, or more, than an autistic partner. In your own relationship. I encourage you to closely evaluate your own relationship to determine what choices you have to improve your own quality of life - you might find my latest podcast series helpful: th-cam.com/play/PLSyXJdjUav7pSwpq7nmSdEQZMwiI3eqHR.html
Could you tell some pointers what was draining
maybe also if you or him understood each other or what could be misunderstood
or maybe things that was left unfinished from one or both side
was it anger like agressive or self inflicting anger
I'm sorry I think it's harmful to say that it's not abuse if the person doesn't understand they are harming someone. There are so many terrible people, narcissists, sociopaths etc. that truly convince themselves they do nothing wrong just to escape the guilt and responsibility, or they simply don't care therefore don't see it as harmful. They would never ever admit that they abused someone. Most abusive parents that are actually abusive unlike your own example would never admit to any wrongdoing. They have excuses and don't see how they couldn't do anything else. You could be confusing the victims into not labeling it as abuse and trying to deal with it longer than they should. Also I'm not even neurotypical. I have ADHD. I know what it's like to live with a brain that is different and the effort it takes to fit in. And I do feel abused by an autistic partner who just doesn't take accountability. If they keep harming you despite you explaining in every way possible, they should understand that they need to change even if they don't understand it. If they keep harming you, this is abuse.
I've been with my partner 11 years, and I believe we are both on the spectrum, even though we are both undiagnosed. My partner has a lot of abusive traits. We tend to argue a lot, and during heated fights, he becomes very angry, verbally and emotionally abusive, and becomes another person. After it's over, and after he has reflected, he usually acknowledges his actions. We both have had a lot of childhood trauma, and I believe his behavior is his way of coping with uncomfortable feelings. Not all people with austism are abusive, but I wouldn't be surprised that his outbursts and his way of dealing with conflict are due to being on the spectrum.
Yeah, that definitely is a poor definition of abuse. Abuse is just continuing harm whether it is intended or not.
So you don't believe neglect is a form of abuse?
Hi there and thanks for the question. The impact is not in question - misunderstandings and differences in needs, plus different ways of thinking, feeling, and perceiving in neurodiverse relationships can be very painful. it is imperative to seek insight and guidance with a provider trained in neurodiverse relationships in order to decrease and minimize the harmful impact. However, both partners matter (unless a person is a sociopath who genuinely doesn’t care if harm is being done. This is not the same as being defensive or sensitive to criticism.) Being labeled as abusive can have a profound impact on an individual’s mental health. It can lead to feelings of guilt, shame, and isolation, or feeling vilified, especially if they are unaware of how their behavior is perceived. So mischaracterizing an autistic partner as abusive or neglectful when no harm is intended by that partner is actually the kettle calling the pot black in my opinion. Feeling neglected doesn’t justify causing harm in return. Again, thanks for your comment and giving me the opportunity to clarify.
@@JodiCarlton That makes sense from a therapeutic standpoint. I thought you meant it as a generalization, and it was nothing from personal experience, so no skin in the game, thankfully
@@sewmuchdufus I'm not sure what you mean by personal experience, but I, personally, have had a lot of experience with both autistic relationships that can feel neglectful AND with narcissistic abuse (from an autistic narcissist and from a non-autistic narcissist). Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between all of these behaviors and traits. So, I've got a whole playlist about that, a course, an assessment that I developed specifically to help make this distinction, and a new support group that's about to kick off. 🙂I'm so glad for comments like yours that help clarify my own intent and message! Thanks again.
Have you ever considered making a video on big age-gap relationships between Aspies and NTs?
Hello and thank you for your question. Large age gaps is not something I’ve come across in neurodiverse relationships any more than neurotypical relationships. So it’s not something I’ve considered addressing. Thanks again for asking!
Neurodiverse person here really struggling to focus on your words with all the flashing words on screen.
Thanks for your feedback. Many neurodivergent individuals prefer captions whereas others like you do not. I will start uploading caption files so these can be turned on and off instead of embedding them in the video. 👍
I have been on the end of so much abuse just because I found others expectations to hard in the sense that they demanded me to act like a NT person.I had to explain how such things a sensory overload would make it difficult for me to do things .
Neurotypicals often believe that the way their brains work is what makes sense and is how an autistic should try to be - but really that’s like expecting a tall person to be shorter and to fit into tiny spaces better. It’s just not possible. Respecting differences and finding the middle ground is the way to healthy connections and relationships. Set boundaries with people who want you to be different than who you are. Do your part to find a compromise when possible. You don’t deserve be badgered or belittled for who you are.
I wonder if those who won't make the effort even though they are capable ALSO are on the narcissism spectrum. Is that possible? ASD and NPD?
Most are
im mild autistic but have klinefelter syndrome. What i will say is that for me, i am emotional and sensitive and will give compliments. I was in a relationship where she used to say i was mentally abusive. unfortunately i have had no help for my issues so i have done a great deal of mimicry, not understanding or knowing if the behaviour i am mimicking is harmful or not... alot of autistics share the same attitude because of growing up trauma and educational trauma/parental. I do often have the internal monologue of " people tend to overuse emotion in the place of logic" to me i would of chosen different pathways to avoid unnecessary outcomes. I also spend alot of time thinking before doing so i get irritated by people who do something rash and then moan about the outcome, this is an example of logic. Autistics have a hard time connecting to their emotions because the framework in society to properly show them how to do it isn't there yet.
I'm not offended by very many things in life, in fact I usually call people out who are constantly throwing themselves onto the fainting couch at every little perceived injustice, but as a late diagnosed autistic, I find the title of your video extremely offensive.. it is maladaptive thinking to believe that one person is entirely to blame for the destruction of a relationship, that assumption alone should disqualify you from your profession. Autistic people actually have a great capacity for compassion and caring, but not at the expense of their own well-being. Many neurodiverse people are not abusive, they are simply trying to navigate a world that demands that THEY conform to it, when neurologically, they don't have the ability to. What needs to happen, is the world needs to in some ways conform to them, because believe it or not, this excessively neurotypical world does actually have the ability to do that!
I actually very much appreciate the distinction between "harm" and "abuse". I don't believe that everyone causing me harm is a bad, abusive person, and it would feel wrong to claim that. But I can now acknowledge the harm I am experiencing and respond appropriately, without vilifying anyone.
I am autistic and the man I love is also autistic. I was told he's abusing me but I know he really doesn't understand how he hurts me. He always seems confused. I was going to listen to my friends and leave him but I still love him. He told me he doesn't love me before but the things he does, like cuddling, asking me what I like, paying attention to the kind of foods I enjoy and then giving me that when I'm sad. Like a lot of it. He isn't a bad man. Even though he hurts me, I love him. How can I show him so he understands how he feels and how I feel better?
I recommend my course "How to Communicate in Your Neurodiverse Relationship." I designed it for my own neurodiverse relationships and family - it helps with the communication break-down in sharing thing like the impact that your husband's actions have on you. It guides you on how to have these conversations without triggering flooding, shut-down and overwhelm for both of you. jodicarlton.com/courses/
Thank you! Such a great explanation.
You're very welcome!
There are some very prejudiced opinions around this topic. You cannot generalise from personal experience. That is the faulty reasoning that lies behind all forms of prejudice. A group of people in a support group are likely to have similar experiences because they have sought out a support group: that is not a sample you can use to make generalisations about all autistic people. For example: as an Autistic person I have been physically assaulted by non-Autistic people without provocation on numerous occasions (I suspect I present as uncomfortable and that is picked up). I could make an argument that many autistic people report the same. I could find support in the theory of the double empathy problem where evidence shows that Allistic people are as bad at empathising and understanding Autistic people as we are them. I could use all this to confirm a growing bias that non-Autistic people are abusive. That bias might be understandable given my experience, but it would be wrong. That they were non-Autistic seems salient to me, but it is faulty reasoning to conclude that therefore all non-Autistic people are therefore violent. All I can really say is that in my experience I encountered individuals who were physically violent. It would certainly be ethically wrong to communicate my experience on social media as if it were a universal truth of all non-Autistic people. That is the line where bad personal experiences becomes a prejudice.
thank you for sharing your thoughts and agreed on all points!
Thank you for this. It is my experience as well. I've been sexually, physically, and emotionally/psychologically abused since early childhood into adulthood, and all were by non-autistic people. I still have trust issues to this day and still live in fear, even though I'm married to a NT man... who isn't the nicest guy in the world.
And yet comments are mostly from nt wives who don’t assume the choice to stay with their partner (instead of leaving, stopping abuse and assuming responsibility). This is the word: nt are right, nd are wrong and abusive. No compatibility. Just don’t mix, then. It will feel better
@@giulioz.4928taking comments on a video as a representative sample is a wonderful example of problematic reasoning.
I sometimes feel like I abuse my girlfriend. She's told me several times that she feels I'm not in touch with my emotions and dont empathize when she experiences highs or lows. She's even mocked my attempts to hug her and say comforting words when she expresses worry or sadness.
I have started going to therapy, but she feels things are going to slow. I feel like the worst boyfriend in the world, making my partner feel alone in my company.
I know emotional connections are important in a relationship, but I cant help but feel she should have picked up on these things when we first started going out several years ago.
Coming up with these demands now feels a bit unfair... I feel like I suddenly need to change myself in order to keep her.
I dont know what to do or feel.
I’m glad you have a therapist to help you process all of this. It sounds like your girlfriend is confused by your response to her emotions but she’s also being hurtful by mocking you when your try to connect with her. It’s not your job to match her highs and lows but to acknowledge them - she would likely benefit from therapy as well if she’s not already getting it.
@JodiCarlton Shes in therapy, and its probably the reason things have been bubbling to the surface. Which puts me in a awkward position, am I supposed to criticize what the therapist is suggesting, or the emotions that comes forth during her sessions?
I feel Im the abusive one, the narcissist, the cold, emotionally distant freak.
I guess Im going to talk about this with my own therapist in my next session.
It just sucks. Communication is vital, and were having it with strangers almost behind the backs of each other.
I have never felt this bad, trapped and hopeless in my life. And its all due to being in a relationship and starting therapy. At least those are the causes i find in my mind...
So accurate much love happy New years this breaks it down
I am autistic and adhd. My husband also has adhd but now I started to suspect that he might be autistic, too. My main problem is that I am very direct in my communication, there is no to little room for interpretations. We have two small children and I often get everwhelmed. So, for example, I say to my husband not to say/ask anything from me at that moment because I have no resources left. Just please be quet for some time. And I think it should be very clear. But it never works. He has his reasons for talking and asking questions. I feel like he feels entiteled to my mental resources even if I have non left. When we talk after, he says that he understands. But come next day and he has his reasons to disregard my needs. And he thinks that if his reasons are good/logic enough, then he is right. But he has his reasons for everything and I have no way in keepping my physical or emotional boundries. Is there anything that could be done so that he would understand that his logic and needs or wishes doesn't go above all? I don't ask for much but sometimes I really need not be touched or spoken to.
It does sound like he isn’t recognizing your spoken boundaries. He could be autistic but what you’re describing could also be ADHD impulsivity and difficulty with inhibiting behavior in the moment. If he feels justified though because of his own logic then that’s more of an autistic trait (poor cognitive empathy/theory of mind). Instead of trying to make home understand what he’s doing that is problematic, I recommend that you focus on option for reinforcing your boundaries. You said you have now way to keep your boundary - take a closer look at that and how you can enforce those boundaries. It’s not about making him do something differently but determine what YOU will do if he doesn’t honor the boundary.
Perhaps sitting down to find a way to win:win. Ie he capably has needs to communicate and feels hurt when he is shut down. you feel overwhelmed . give him specific times he can connect with you so he doesn’t feel emotionally abandoned.
This entire discussion supports my argument that neurotypical and neurodiverse marriages should be avoided. Approximately 75% of them and in divorce and it is usually the neurotypical spouse who's hurt more. It has been my experience that can autistic person the people in their life are replaceable so as long as they are able to stick to their routines and patterns of behavior they don't care about getting a divorce.
It was better if neurodivergent people partner with other neurodivergent people. More importantly neurodivergent people should not lie about whether or not they are autistic.
Many of us neurodivergent people didn’t know we were for most of our lives, and have been traumatised by relationships with neurotypical people. In my case to the extent that I will stay single for life (33 years and counting). Neurotypicals can inflict harm, humiliation and misery without intending to, but as the “normies” will assume they of course are always in the right. I gave up on relationships, completely and permanently while my former husband swanned off into another marriage, then 30 years later had 2 affairs and divorced his wife. But of course he’s the wise one who understands relationships, while I’m the deviant
As an autistic woman who has had hurtful experiences with a ND partner, co-worker, & bosses (4 different people), how is it better for me to be with any of those people as opposed to an alternative counterpart, NT or ND, who doesn't treat others that way.
Autistic & ND people also suffer plenty of abuse from NT people as well. I do not lump all NTs into 1 asshole-tinged stereotype & think "they" should keep to themselves.
I don't support abusive relationships, so I wouldn't suggest that it would be a positive situation if anyone, NT or ND, would be with a person who acts abusive to others. What I do takeaway from your statement is that it's alright if neurodivergents get abused or are put in harmful situations.
Two autistic people together 😂😂😂😂
Nah won't work.
I know this one…it’s not exactly abuse, even if it appears as such. 99% chance it’s a defensive reaction to something being done TO us, BY that neurotypical spouse/partner, etc. I often feel victimized, and abused, by people close to me, who insist that I’m the problem, when I’m just minding my own business. I’m certain that we attract narcissistic people.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve definitely seen this quite a lot - autistic individuals in relationships with narcissists. There is a vulnerability there resulting from poor recognition of behaviors that are harmful or toxic. It’s easy to gaslight someone who is already trying to figure out social behavior.
On the flip side when non toxic partners in a neurodiverse relationship misunderstand each other, it can seem like abuse to both. The impact on both is damaging so it’s imperative to gain insight and get clarity to minimize harm and foster connection.
What I found with my lovely ex-boyfriend was a lack of mentalisation difficulties. What I learnt is that if I didn't measure up to his standard, then I would be criticised and told many times that 'he can do better than me.' I was told if I didn't marry him soon, well he has many takers. He would tell me that I was 'not his type.' In my head, I was thinking why the naughty word are you with me. I would let him know that I didn't feel comfortable talking about it. Actually, his favourite thing to say to me was "you're so emotional" and "stop talking in your head." Then it occured to me that he doesn't understand emotions or feelings. Feelings are for weak people, he says. "Stop being sensitive, Joshua." Joshua, you are such a drama queen. You just love starting arguments. You make so much s**t up. Stop lying, Joshua, all you do is lie. I can't trust you." He locked me in the house for day, thought I was cheating after he cheated and blamed me. Now, his voice plays on repeat, as if I am listening to his constant insecure criticisms. Anyway, I still love him from afar, and I pray for him, prosperity, and that he is safe. ❤
That sounds incredibly abusive
Hi Joshua. This is narcissistic and extremely abusive. It’s not at all related to autism. Please get help healing from this and also to prevent any temptation of going back to this relationship if you are love bombed. You’re trauma bonded and that’s like a drug addiction. Get some professional help if you don’t have it already. ❤️🩹
My husband is willing and admits that he thinks he is. How can he get a formal diagnosis?
Hi Sandi. Here's a video I did a while back about this: th-cam.com/video/ZVhZ5OrJDvg/w-d-xo.html
I think that you’re failing to consider the extent to which someone can defend against the knowledge that they are being harmful to another person because it’s threatening to their identity or a status quo that benefits them. The defense speaks to some level of awareness of this threat. In your definition, a person could either feign ignorance or persist in failing to consider the pleas or words of their partner and be considered “harmful but not abusive” even though a clear pattern is present.
Yes, she was abusive due to her ASD, and it got worse after her official diagnosis because she "unmasked". If you tell them what they are doing is hurtful to you and they continue to do it then it's abuse, regardless of reason.
Maybe she is abusive. But I think thats a lot more dependent on context. Even telling someone their behaviour is hurtful (which should normally be okay to say) could become abusive on its own if abused and they are just to always comply, and you dont consider them also having their own needs and boundaries. That is something that has to go both ways. And generally both should care if they are hurting their partner. And sometimes two people are simply not compatible, even if none of them are directly abusive.
What people with autism have in common with people who are not autistic is some are abusive and some are not.
So many imbalances of human nature and relationships could be healed if someone, or couples, had access to counseling with people like you. But the sad truth is many of these tendencies are unrecognized because of poor education, and even when recognized many people, most people, cannot financially afford counseling.
I think it takes a lot of courage to take responsibility when you know your behaviour hurts someone
And it takes a lot of courage to accept you're "abused" when you feel like it's the result of behaviours that is toxic whether it's intentional or not
Third point, it takes a lot of courage to call someone out on their behaviour and accepting their apology when you don't wanna hurt them hut we all need to hear criticism when it's important
Never a sorry. It is always you. He can say whatever he wants and doesnt care how it feels. They are always right.
Im autistic myself and hope I wont accidentally become "abusive" in a future relationship
one minute in and dang bro, we/they arent sociopaths.. that quote forgets behavior analysis requires intention.
curious about the quote about cassandra syndrome.
id love to know the parents of the autistic person. was there 1, two, none, only mom, only dad…?
I don't have any additional information about this individual or her partner - it was a comment here on my TH-cam channel.
That first woman's comment was taken from a google search. It's evident that it's not based on fact or even experience. This is sad, so very sad. In a perfect world autistic people wouldn't end up with someone like her, and her partner may not even be autistic. Anyone who knows anything about autism knows that the whole lack of empathy thing is completely wrong, and that autistic people actually feel more empathy than most neurotypical people. The problem isn't a lack of empathy but a lack of knowing exactly when or how to express that to someone who is expecting certain reactions, actions, or behaviors that signal to that neurotypical person that the autistic person feels empathy. Also, when you ask an autistic person if they know how it feels to be in your shoes you're likely not going to hear 'yes, I know what it's like to be in your shoes.' If people were truly honest with themselves, unless you have hade the exact same experience with the exact same circumstances with the exact same life experiences etc etc etc... you're not going to know what it's like exactly for that person. The majority of autistic people take these types of questions etc literally, myself included. Can we feel the emotion that person has? Likely, yes. Can we say we know exactly what they feel? No. it's an issue of being able to explain or describe that feeling to a neurotypical person that is the problem. We feel empathy, and in many cases it's the kind of empathy that can crush you.
There are way too many 'autistic terms' being thrown around in that person's comment. She's been on a google search and engaging in confirmation bias. I'm not saying her experiences aren't true, but her lumping all autistic people under one umbrella is as dangerous as lumping people of any 'group' under one umbrella. If you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person. and there are scores of neurotypical people who lack empathy.
I have noticed a tendency towards physical violence in autistic men and women. I’ve often wondered if autistic men are at a higher likelihood to commit DV. Especially ones that look neurotypical. I think they can’t understand or they want things a certain way and lash out when things don’t go there way. I think communication problems play a role also. I also wonder what percentage of autistic people have been a victim of DV. I’ve noticed people on the spectrum tend have antisocial personality disordered people as friends and significant others. I think both not being neurotypical bonds them. Also they have trouble seeing danger. What is your opinion about this?
I've read more autistic people are more likely to end up in victims of DV than the other way around. As well Autistic people are represented in the criminal justice system. I was abused as kid for being autistic. If I was caught stimming my hand the teach crack my hands with a yard stick. If bounced in my desk the yard stick again. What this taught me was it I was to accept physical violence as normal. So in relationship my wife when she would hit me or throw things at me that was completely normal. So I'd let her hit me and throw things at me. I never set boundary and I was taught to hit for who I am is what NT do.
Sorry about the abuse you went through. I hope you are okay. Did your parents confront the teacher? Are you out of that DV situation? @@chrismaxwell1624
The research currently shows that autistic individuals are more likely to be victims of abuse than to be perpetrators. Here is one such study: www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2018.00203/full
Other research shows that violent autistic individuals are more likely to have other diagnoses including substance abuse and personality disorders (i.e. anti-social, narcissism). "7.3% of individuals with ASD were convicted of violent offenses. They noted that risk factors for violent offending included older age, male gender, a diagnosis of AS (as opposed to autistic disorder), and comorbid psychotic, substance use, and personality disorders. They commented that violent individuals with ASD had the same sociodemographic and comorbidity features as violent persons without ASD."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4710161/#:~:text=They%20found%20that%207.3%25%20of,substance%20use%2C%20and%20personality%20disorders.
In my opinion, it is these other disorders that are at the root of violence more than autism. Autism may contribute to a person's inability to regulate behavioral impulses in a moment of rage, but not strategic and calculated violence.
And thank you for this very important question!
Thanks for responding. Thanks for the studies your response brought more clarification to this subject for me. I agree with your answer that there are other diagnoses at play with physically violent individuals with or without autisim. Yes when individuals with autisim act out physically it is more impulse than calculated. I have seen them even hurt themselves or destroy their own property in a moment of rage or fustration. Can they be taught to be less impulsive and reactive?@@JodiCarlton
A lot typical people are are not capable of insights into the behaviors and pattern that self destructive and harm others in relationships. I don't think that's autistic thing only. This is true of all people. Some people are more self aware and have insight into their own behaviors and others are blind to it. This applies to all people not just autistic people.
So saying relationships with Autistic people are toxic or abusive because one attended a support group with other of similar experience is flawed. That could easily be the same as thinking people with blue eyes are toxic and abusive because you found support group of people that had abusive relationships with people with blue eyes. What more is if you go looking for specifics like that you will find it.
What more is abuse is more likely to happen to autistic person from what I read.
Agreed on all of this, Chris! Thanks for your perspective and contributions here on my channel. :)
it is understandable to focus on NT/AS from the female POV, the NT. It was a mild let down, however, to not find ANY information on men who have to deal with an Aspie live-in girlfriend. oh well,,,,
Hi James. I understand your frustration. I work with a lot of men who are in relationships with Aspie women. I don’t have many videos or blogs specifically for men but a lot of what is on this channel is geared towards either gender. A lot of the same applies to both genders but not everything. It’s a goal to get more content produced for men! Thanks for the reminder.
This video feels Just existing to clear missunderstand about autistic people but it dosen't really give more examples on how autistic people can be abusive like what are the traits that make them abusive intentional or not because red flags are helpful to notice then solving those issues by giving solutions to solve those problems.(I say this as an autistic teenager)You could give a story where the relationship failed and then another story on relationship got saved.
What a disgusting comment that woman made. We as autists have much better theory of minds about allistic individuals then allistics do for autistic individuals. I am unintentionally gaslight DAILY in my interactions with allistics. The difference is no one believes when we speak out
I agree about the disgusting comment but I don’t agree that autistics have better theory of mind than allistics. I think this varies by individual. Allistics definitely struggle to understand the mind and world of autistics but in my experience allistics are more capable of recognizing that an autistics truly has a different perspective - it’s a real thing - whereas many autistics don’t recognize that the a different perspective is possible.
"Do you feel abused by your autistic partner?"
No. Do you?
Covert narcissists NEVER think they're abusive. They think they're perfect and the people they are harming "are out to get" them. They do mental gymnastics to make themselves always the victim even when they're the perpetrator.
I was tryna get close to a guy it took me only a couple interactions with him to understand something was happening that i was missin hes a great man very sweet then hes got another side that seems to dominate because i realized last week hes tryna get into a pattern or something hes just crossed boundaries that i wouldn't let another cross and his lack of accountability for his bs is really the problem i can work with a mf thats gonna keep it 100 he is very insucre and he is a sexy mf lol the last thing i told him was this
It aint nothin wrong with u but if u dont believe that there is nothin i can do we only were seeing eachother off and on for about 3 mo i did try tho i hope he finds someone more his pace he deserves that❤
Absolutely
M’am, have you ever been in a long term relationship with a man on the spectrum? Have you read the experiences of women who have?
Sure, one story is just a story. But it’s incredibly invalidating to people whose lives have been sucked dry after years of emotional abuse trying to love these people who repeatedly hurt us time and time again despite verbalizing how it hurts us.
How is that not abuse!?
Good point
If you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person. I was sexually, physically, mentally and emotionally abused by non-autistic people from very early childhood into adulthood. So does that make all non-autistic people child molesters, rapists, or abusers? You had one experience with one autistic person, and now you lump "These people" together. So am I to think, then, based on your take of things, that you are also an abuser, rapist, etc because you're not autistic?
Autistic people are neither angels or demons, and like non-autistic people, who are neither angels nor demons, shouldn't be judged by the actions of a few.
@@ellaboobella8770This is logical autistic thinking. NT don’t function like that (even if they “pretend” they do and brag about it in school and media). I wish this lady’s experience had been better but I acknowledge she chose to stay in the relationship. I have learnt (to my expenses and through suffering and broken dreams that loving someone or being in love doesn’t mean you can share your life with him/her. I cannot share my life with the person I love and I cannot share my life with my parents either. I felt abused as long as I stayed in the relationship, abuse stopped when I chose to be on my own. Life is very lonely: autistic people know and many accept it. NT? Complaining and blaming others for not giving them the love they “deserve”. We deserve respect at work and in the streets, we have no “right” to “love” and kindness.
..sorry but i agree. Who diagnose others as narcs do u think? ND ppl. Victims groups are full of ND ppl who were discarded. & coathes/online psychologists i assume that they target ND ppl by talking about npd the evil. Niw i wish you the best. Same way i would be "abused" by npd partner/parent same & worse by an asd. Bcs he lacks empathy. & beleives he s an empath. & smart & gets every single word subjectively. You could be some exception idk. But only that u have 6 things & the other 2 things..well by definition i see unfairness. I was w adhd bf but not for marriage/ discussion / decisions / someone who feels my emotions & his words/ideas express him.
It is annoying how the physical act or the person who desires the physical act are always expected to compromise. Rarely is it said (out loud) that the both partner need to compromise. You cant force people to have sex but we can force people to give up sex? It doesnt matter if the sex desiring person is suffering mentally and emotionally.
Yes, we can expect people to give up sex, and to my knowledge, no one has ever died from not having sex. You may struggle with disappointment, frustration, anger, and a lot of other emotions as a result of decreased sex with a partner, so get to a therapist who can help you process your feelings. However, no person is ever entitled to to another person's body, and no partner should ever be expected to "compromise" by giving access to their body. Sex can be a wonderful, intimate, experience for partners to share, but it can also be painful and distressing for many reasons - it is not a reasonable compromise to expect a partner to experience pain or distress. There are many, many, many variables that contribute to sexual desire, including physical, emotional, and psychological safety. Additionally, the body may also experience extreme discomfort related to sensory processing, hormonal changes, stress, fatigue, and so much more. If your partner "compromises" to provide sex to you without feeling sexual desire themselves (for whatever reason), then you are essentially using their body to masturbate - which is a bit disturbing don't you think? Instead of focusing on not getting the sex that you want, take some time to understand why your partner is uncomfortable with sex or has a decreased sex drive.
Was diagnosed with autism 60 years ago in grade one. Never trust us.
Oh I don't agree with that - many autistics are quite trustworthy. Personality and character development which is unrelated to autism also play a huge role in trustworthiness.
@@JodiCarlton
Well I never met them. They lie a lot to mask and are bitter cold when you ask for a truth
I think you’ve met many autistics who are not as you describe. The ones who behaved this way are the ones that made a negative impact on you (and are memorable because of your distress). Autistic individuals are prevalent and statistically speaking you’ve definitely had positive experiences with them as well. We can’t define an entire neurotype based on the behaviors of some. I’ve met thousands in my career and many are delightful, kind, compassionate, and respectful people!
According to the judges abuse is abuse ASD or not. There can own guns and they know right from wrong.
Who decides what is right and what is wrong? It’s not so clear.
🥸