Quite honestly, I find the MCU to be a much better newbie-friendly thing for the heroes than rebooting the comics every other year. It’s kinda like them saying “Hey, you like this movie? Read the comics!”
To add to that, in recent years Marvel has been adding “previously…” pages to the front of their comics. Helps new readers get caught up on what’s needed for the comic you’re currently holding. Like “hey we know 80+ years of continuity feels daunting, but really all you need to know is this guy was bitten by a spider and right now he’s fighting a bug mummy who threatened his girlfriend”.
Agreed. Although not as complex as the comic book universe, it feels like it was expanded slowly and carefully to make it very easy for new viewers to latch on in a random movie like guardians or black panther without knowing everything that happened in the movies before it. Imo, it has the potential to rival if not beat the main marvel universe because it seems very streamlined and is actually progressing, whereas the comics just seem to go in circles decade after decade.
"Maybe I had a jet-ski" was the most emotionally powerful line delivery of Owen Wilson's career so far. For their entertainments with no real stakes, Marvel does a good job finding emotion in character moments.
I really wish more people understood the whole thing about Disney being, effectively, a real estate / vacation destination company that happens to also run a few film studios. There would be SO many fewer bullshit clickbait rumors about the MCU and Star Wars, if that was common knowledge.
It's not that it's UNCOMMON knowledge so much as deliberate ignorance...sorta like comics "purists" whose knowledge of their source material doesn't go past this century.
It is both. One does Disney a disservice to think that the parks are all what matters. Sure, the movies are important to keep the parks running. But this also works because there are people who genuinely care about those movies. Walt Disney used to be one of those guys, which is why he could give us the golden and silver age of Disney, and Mary Poppins. Ashman and Menken gave us the Disney renaissance. And Feige is genuinely passionate about Marvel.
No people straight don't get it. They know, but they don't get it. The reason Disney hasn't taken over the world is that iirc they still don't have full theme park rights of Marvel characters
@@swanpride As was said in The Wire, all the pieces matter. Because they all matter in an operation like Disney, their 2010 film output got a lot less sloppy as a result...in addition to having passionate talents like Kevin Feige.
In fairness is not just that this is truth but the degree is genuinely stagering to think about it. The movie stuff in year did within the margin of error of Disney yearly earning.(Meaning you could steal there movie money profit and they wouldn't even feel the financial lost until someone bother to really check. All exept Black Panther year that did slightly higher than 2 percent. Which is just wild. Also explain why they refuse to let there park become national park. They would secede from the union and create there version of the vatican city state but just for the Disney park. Because the park make 70% percent of there yearly profit. I don't think the USA will survive the next 50 years.(If any nation state does) but if there is no nuclear war I think will out live with ease. Lol
Bob rightly sings the praises of the MCU being able to streamline and make friendly some massive and confusing stories by way of adaptation rather than regurgitation but, let me sing the praises of Chipman and his ability to do the same. Bob's winnowing down of the most essential, likely and exciting moves made by Marvel Studios is always engaging and intelligently thought out.
Great entry - and that is why Kevin Feige's team is popular with Disney management. He's the first movie leader that has been a reliable and consistent source in feeding interest, fans and IP into the parks.
Personally I think the Flashpoint movie should let it keep existing. Kinda the way the Crisis tv special quickly shows footage from the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern movie. Like hey it’s not good but it has its fans. So here’s a nod for those folks, and going forward we’re just gonna do something different. Not burn it just let it float off into the void. (But that’s just me)
I think this is a good point, Bob. Thanos is a household name now, not because of the delicate interwoven continuity tracking the path of each Infinity Stone through the universe, but because Infinity War was a damn good movie. Now, if they just had continuity errors all over the place, that'd be a bad thing, but having a loose, malleable continuity that doesn't sweat the details is the best of both worlds.
I've always thought that the best of the MCU reminded me of hanging out in a TTRPG (i.e. maguffin hunts and interchangeable plot beats assembled primarily as an excuse to hang out with characters and each other) and now I'm wondering if the rise of MCU and the rise of TTRPG podcasts are more culturally connected than just how it feels to me.
Also... "Imagine how we could monetise this in different parts of the world where it has the most appeal! We just have to make everything hang together. Ka-ching!"
Again, high quality content. I can't help but notice that your editing has gotten much better since you don't have to churn out two or three videos a week for The Escapist.
My 3 favorite MCU properties right now are Thor: Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 1, and Loki. I want more of THAT formula. Somehow the 'cosmic' side of Marvel is what really won my heart.
Let's be realistic here, Disney makes a significant amount of their money on the merchandising. The parks are *nice*, but ultimately the parks are just one more piece of merch they can sell you alongside the t-shirts and dolls and action figures and dresses and mugs and ice skating shows and hats. Like, we all know the reason the Disney Princesses line exists, right? It's bcause an executive was at one of the ice shows and saw little girls in perfect princess dress replicas. He asked their moms where they got them, and was told said moms had made the dresses, with considerable time and expense, because it was that important to their daughters, and he realized that holy shit, there was a whole market here and Disney was just not selling them anything to fill it. That's the actual story.
Still undersells the parks a little. Merch helps but as Bob puts it, the parks are why Disney survived a LOT of lean years between studio boom periods. Just looking at the raw financials probably would back that up.
In years that aren't covid, the parks made something like 20-25 billion (with a b) per year. Their media stuff, now that they have Pixar and Marvel and Starwars and Disney+ and major television networks, makes about as much *now*, but that wasn't really the case until this decade. Historically the parks have been where they make the vast majority of their money that got them through the rough periods when the movie studios were faltering.
Not quite true. The parks are a sure bank. Merch is certainly important, too, but the parks continue to chuck along and sell merch even when Disney has some lean years. Merch can be pretty unpredictable, but the parks are (when there isn't a pandemie going on) a sure source of income.
Bob, for some reason I found this particular video more coherent and easier to follow than some of our previous ones - even other Marvel videos. Not throwing shade, just something I noticed with this one. Nice work!
The meteor is the dead/dying celestial, with the Panther God (Bast?) As the spirit of the celestial who communicated with early wakandans to eventually develop a technology to revive them millennia later.
And speaking of Bast, remember we got Thor: Love and Thunder, where the main villain is Gorr the God Butcher and the Greek pantheon shows up. More than likely the Egyptian pantheon also exists.
I feel like I could use this video as a way to teach a class on writing good D&D campaigns. Good characters at the core, full lore and continuity doesn't need to exist first.
Lol me too. I'd honestly have completely forgotten about that clip if this show didn't constantly bring it up when continuity is mentioned - not that I'm complaining, haha.
There was a time when Marvel favored story over characters: the Dark Age of Comics. This is what got us all those interchangeable cookie-cutter Rob Liefeld characters.
Me: *Watches media about weird comic continuity, high concept ideas, multiverse/time travel bullshit, and complicated stories for as long as I can remember* Me: I am sure I can handle the stuff Bob is going to talk about in these videos. Me: Oh no I've gone cross eyed
Of all the topics to be covered on this show for future MCU installments, this is one that really feels like a project. As in, having to read up a whole lot (i.e. watch the previous two videos) before you can even begin to think about how it all fits into wherever it's all going. This isn't just "character with special abilities adjacent to this established part of the MCU" or "character meant to be the jumping off point for X concept". It comes pre-packaged with SOOOOOO much baggage and heavy, universe spanning implications that it really is that big of a pain in the ass to wrap your mind around all of it.
Hahahaha I had to screen F you when you said find out on the next episode!!! amazing work super entertaining!!!! Love to see your insights on this .. SOOOO GOOOD
Let's see about 5 or 6 videos all talking about insanely complicated filn story stuff, business stuff, multiple film studio continuity, and comic to film adaptation theories.....and still easier to understand than both Spider-man and Emperor Palpatine clone sagas.
While Feige is pretty open with the fact that, as Bob says, most of the continuity is retro- and they always focus on individual movies ahead of the grander scheme, I feel like the true unsung talent of the studio (as opposed to the sung talents like casting and character writing) is their exceptional ability to make any given plot point _seem_ like it was planned all along. To a degree that people who should know better believe there's some grand intricate plan, as if that wouldn't be a terrible way to design a film franchise.
When I think of unsung talent at Marvel Studios, I inevitably circle back to Sarah Finn's impeccable casting and writing talents like Markus & Mcfeely and Jac Schaefer.
@@johnathonhaney8291 on one hand, I would like for them to get more recognition, and the other hand, i hope they get plenty among their colleagues and industry, and I do not want them subjected to the fandom wolves.
@@katherinealvarez9216 That last part especially do I agree with. The Fandom Menace is a nasty Borg cube of awfulness no human being deserves. But the point before that on getting recognized by their peers, I'd like to think they are. Funny thing about how M&M's progress through MCU seems to be paralleling Schaefer's own current rise. People forget M&M started their stint on MCU with Captain America The First Avenger, which was really the first MCU film to tie everything back together. They'd go onto be screenwriters for Infinity War and Endgame as a result. Schaefer starts as screenwriter on Captain Marvel (The Second Avenger as I call it) and now has now hit a home run with Wandavision and is heavily involved in many Phase 4 projects.
consider disney's other big revenue stream; toys. sure, you can market toys by recreating a specific scene in a movie, but if you get people invested in specific characters, they'll buy up every version of it they can.
One of Disney's franchises exists mainly because of the toy line. The Cars movies aren't critical darlings, but the real money is the Lightning McQueen toys that kids love to race around.
How is it surprising that the Black Knight would show up in the MCU? The character has regularly been a member of the Avengers since like... 1969. The only missing usual Avengers characters besides him are like... Hercules, Wonderman and She-Hulk.
4:46 and I don’t understand how or why this is a bad thing. There are tv shows that last for years because of this or some other reason. And I never watch the Fast and Furious movies, but they run on spectacle, absurdity and the fact that people like the cast?
The logic is sound enough. Get people to care about the characters and they'll keep coming back. It's why Smallville is still remembered as the only successful adaptation of Superman this century.
On Bob's Twitter there was a dude that said something to the effect of "Marvels biggest mistake was focusing on character" and this bit is Bob explaining why characters are the most important part of a story
Black knight was also a very important part of the recent big crossover event in the comics. That push has to come from some big execs at marvel studios
Leaving us on a cliffhanger of Venom and Morbius? You magnificent bastard! But, I do have to give you credit for making two really bad Spiderman-adjacent movies interesting.
The best proof of "they work backwards, and retcon what they need to for the sake of Continuity" has got the be the Reality Stone, which was a LIQUID in Thor 2. Asgardians hand over a liquid to Tanalier Tavan, and when Thanos shows up he puts a rock on his glove. How? Its so easy it doesn't matter. Rocket Raccoon uses a hyper hypodermic needle to draw it from Jane Foster in Endgame. Rockify that, unassumingly! Give Steve a rock in a suitcase and send him into the past and everyone knows he can liquefy and inject it with ease...
Bob, I have been a huge fan of yours for many years. I saw your tweet the other day, where were discussing your schedule. It talked about that you were getting paid to produce content, which needed to be taken care of before you finish your content for your own channel. I was wondering where fans could find your new paid content? Is it on Film Theory, or another channel? Also, what are the best ways to support your work? I have bought your merchandise and constantly watch your main channel? Thank you for entertaining and informing us
I believe Kevin Feige has already come out to say that any property that was not fully made with Marvel Studios is non canon to the main timeline, but obviously with the multiverse exists somewhere.
i wonder...shortly after Black Panther, I said that the Vibranium mountain meteor, was the Celestial's head and body crashing to Earth....we may find out in November how accurate that is.
3:17 Yeah, that's the oddest thing about the MCU that no one talks about; From the beginning, they took the B, C and D list heroes and made billions which makes all the studios with their A characters look bad.... or were they looking bad on their own? "What, you want yellow spandex?"... as I wrote that, I realize we never got Wolverine, only ever Logan. Some people are OK with that but some people ain't me.
We would pay to watch Thor and Rocket Cooking Power Hour and I kinda find it silly they haven't giving us something like it because can you imagine how cheap that would be to make, and yet could also still be so fun to watch, or maybe better Peter (spiderman) tries to teach Thor and Nebula how to cook, while Bruce (still as Doctor Hulk) watches from the sidelines because the kitchen is too small for him to help, so he just is offering support and advice (badly) from the table in the attached room. And trust me it would make all of its money and then some back
The 'I am so tired' clip has never been so relavent. I suspect it will be showing up in the next video, but slowed down, reverbd, and *B A S S B O O S T E D*
I would have thought Avengers: Endgame would have settled any debate on the existence of other timelines. After all, the second Thanos came from some parallel timeline. The Ancient One actually discussed other timelines with their own Infinity Stones, some of which are possessed by the TVA. Perhaps these are "variant" stones taken when their timeline was reset?
@@rayelgatubelo 'Into the Spiderverse' actually HAS Spider-Man in it (in fact, multiple ones) I'm talking specifically about all of these weird villain focused movies that don't have Spider-Man at all in them (except for maybe some vague references) Who the hell cares about a Morbius movie?! Or even a Black Cat one? Venom was BAD! (A few fun scenes with Tom Hardy are not going to change my mind about how bland and boring that movie was)
Thank you! I’m always telling people Disney is a real estate company, not an entertainment company so much, kinda like McDonalds or a religious organization.
I'm confused about that distinction. A real estate company would mean they make their bank by buying and selling land. But they buy it, build resorts on it, and run them. Wouldn't that make them primarily a hospitality company? Or am I missing something?
...frankly, I don't think that this is even all that complicated. Marvel and Disney have both realised that while big names are a draw for people, an even bigger draw is a well-told story with compelling characters. Plus, it is smarter to sprinkle in some of the "smaller" characters like the Eternals (just like they did with the Guardians of the Galaxy) now when they still have bigger names to come to cover for some failure than use up the famous ones first.
Which is why, as a writer myself, I always want to SCREAM at all the excuses the haters put for Marvel's success. If you start with the characters and then build your story around them properly, your job is more than half-done.
Something else to consider is that the Eternals traditionally are meant to keep the Deviants in check. Considering we haven't seen any Deviants in the trailer, a twist Marvel could pull would be to replace Deviants with Mutants. It might also explain the something of a retcon redemption arc Apocalypse has received in marvel comics recently.
This also fits the character first approach Bob talks about as well. What better way to hit on the dangers of tribalism-centric pathos of being an X-Men then to have them literally be held down by an elite group that has existed since the dawn of the millennia. Seems like a good allegory for racist, ableist, etc, institutions.
As I recall Disney bought Marvel so they could have stuff aimed at young boys (i.e. superheroes and suchlike) in house. That and the "Disney wants superhero stuff for its theme parks" idea are compatible.
There is no question in my mind that No Way Home is going to include a scene where Tom Holland Spiderman calls out to the multiverse and assembles the Spidermen. And the top three "Spidermen" that show up are for sure going to be Gwen Stacy, Miles Morales, and Tom Hardy Venom.
MAYBE this would be a good time for a video about: Comic book continuity! We have 3 Spider-men and Miles Morales, two X-men verisions, two FFs, etc. NOW, the movie audience understands the odd is-or-is-not that comic readers have always known. :)
It's already been established that the Marvel TV shows are no longer canon since they had no measuable effect on the movies. So Inhumans and AoS are out along with The netflix shows, Hellstrom, Cloak and Dagger, and any X-men property that ever existed before today)... at least until they come up with a way to link them to some sort of multiversal addendum same as Morbius and Venom I would assume, that would allow them to be something relevant even if they dont directly connect with the MCU's "sacred timeline." I'm guessing this is where the Loki and Multiverse of Madness (written by the same person) comes in.
In regards to why they're using the Black Knight, the truth is that with other characters like Iron Man, Cap, Thor and Hulk either leaving or their actors getting a little too old to keep doing this, we're probably going to see Marvel leveraging more characters who have "something there" but never quite made it across the finish line. With Black Knight you have a whole Marvel Super-Heroes meets Arthurian Legend thing that can be exploited. I mean, Captain Britain has the whole Arthurian thing and the multiverse thing, but Marvel's still workshopping that property on the comics side and a solid concept wouldn't be ready by when they need it. It's honestly just a bit of a head-scratcher as to why he's being introduced in Eternals aside from the Sersi connection. Will they somehow tie the Eternals to Arthurian legend? I don't know. But yeah, expect to get some movies that make you go "They're making a movie about them? Okay, I guess." I could see them doing maybe a Ka-Zar movie. I could see them doing a Tigra movie just based on how strong her design is (Great design even when tweaked to be more modest. She always lacked a good direction, though). There's probably a ton more they could use.
We're getting Kang but I wouldn't put it past Marvel to throw in Rama Tut as well somehow. He's being used as punching bag these days but doing a scenario where a guy has to actually fight a different version of himself? Isn't that a "take that" to complaints of people saying "Well, the villain is just the hero but evil! They do it every time!" Marvel: "This time, you're right... and you're also wrong because he's an ALTERNATE version of himself!" Or not, it's Kang and it's confusing on purpose. And here's hoping Kang leads to a GOOD version of Dr Doom.
I have a tinfoil hat theory that Disney is gonna do secret wars as their next big event and basically make it their days of future past, aka "let's clean up the timeline a bit, so we can fit as many superheroes franchises under the Disney banner. We're gonna keep this movie/character/thing as cannon cause everyone loved that and we're gonna prune everything else." and I don't think that it will be called secret wars, I think it will be called Spider-man: No Way Home, it's called no way home cause spidey is literally gonna be on another planet and so will be a mix of the x-men, ( I don't think fantastic four will be, cause I think marvel is just gonna reboot that causes the other two aren't really looked on favorably), other heroes, and villains
Counterpoint... Literally ALL of the animated Justice League movies are fantastic. I have no idea why they can't just remake one of those in live actions.
@@johnathonhaney8291 as they get closer to filming they will inevitably form a plan though and using the comics as at least a jumping off point only makes logical sense. That said, they have shown on many occasions the knowledge, skill, ability, and willingness to deviate from the source material as the narrative may call for it. Make no mistake, they are aware of that plot point and are certainly holding onto the idea of adapting to the movies if they think that it could enhance the story they are telling.
I'll tell you what Marvel's biggest problem is that's rendering everything so damn dark that you have to bust up the brightness setting on your television or tablet to see anything. When did this become a thing where rendering everything darker makes it better for some reason as if if there are colors on the screen we might get bored or think it's for children. It's as if the guy from the original underworld movie started directing every movie in Hollywood and it makes me sick to my stomach. I miss the time where movies were actually seeable and bright
Interestingly, James Gunn's the only director I heard said there's room for the MCU AND a DC Movieverse. DC and WB just have to get their acts together and focus on why their characters are worth watching, like who the yare as people and what they can do. I thought Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and SHAZAM! got that right.
8:22 - until we get a critical mass of these that don't make sense? Because Odin had to have that there BEFORE Eitri was forced to make it by Thanos. Maybe Hela meant the stones, but that'd be obvious and the gauntlet was the object of derision. Or how did Fury get a Helicarrier for AoU after WS? I mean, sure, you're probably right about Disney, but perhaps there's enough viewers for who good character alone aren't enough after a time, and story and world building matter in greater part. In contrast to Gunn: LoTR.
In re the Multiverse part - did I miss something? I thought Spider-Man: No Way Home and Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness were both coming out after The Eternals.
Great, now we'll have to whait another week yo know how No Way Home could involve the Multiverse, given how relatively grounded the Spider-Man movies had been in the MCU
@@johnathonhaney8291 the multiverse was the best chance Warner had to make a product that offered something Marvel didn't have, but they took too long and now Marvel is going to beat them on that race too
I may have, to rewatch these to keep the continuity together, that is a lot to take it, hell I'm only excited because Neil Gaiman did a good take on the eternals and that was my only exposure to them up til this point.
I really hate TH-cam for making an algorithm that encourages creators to split up their work into four 20 min-ish segments to get them out once a week instead of just taking the time to make a complete work. Essays shouldn't have fucking cliffhangers.
You'd have many more subscribers if you did Overthinker again, but early format before you put weird character stuff in, the first Overthinker episodes were brilliant.
'Official statements' last as long as they are considered useful to the officials in question. Once something pops up that makes that statement actually *costs* them something, even if that thing is just the *opportunity* to make money... they'll drop it like a hot potatoe.
I continue to enjoy how Bob clearly understands just how bonkers all this is, while still making it sound at least semi-rational.
Yup!
Quite honestly, I find the MCU to be a much better newbie-friendly thing for the heroes than rebooting the comics every other year.
It’s kinda like them saying “Hey, you like this movie? Read the comics!”
To add to that, in recent years Marvel has been adding “previously…” pages to the front of their comics. Helps new readers get caught up on what’s needed for the comic you’re currently holding. Like “hey we know 80+ years of continuity feels daunting, but really all you need to know is this guy was bitten by a spider and right now he’s fighting a bug mummy who threatened his girlfriend”.
Agreed. Although not as complex as the comic book universe, it feels like it was expanded slowly and carefully to make it very easy for new viewers to latch on in a random movie like guardians or black panther without knowing everything that happened in the movies before it.
Imo, it has the potential to rival if not beat the main marvel universe because it seems very streamlined and is actually progressing, whereas the comics just seem to go in circles decade after decade.
@@WyattoonsComics
Good point, there.
@@arthand7672
Well said.
@Wyattoons Comics
And new readers they need. They've been more and more out of touch with the public and are even outsold by manga now.
"Maybe I had a jet-ski" was the most emotionally powerful line delivery of Owen Wilson's career so far. For their entertainments with no real stakes, Marvel does a good job finding emotion in character moments.
You've not see his UK sofa adverts then... /jk
Yeah that line hit me in the feels real good
I think Royal Tenenbaums tops it, but it's still really good for a frickin' TV miniseries
I really wish more people understood the whole thing about Disney being, effectively, a real estate / vacation destination company that happens to also run a few film studios. There would be SO many fewer bullshit clickbait rumors about the MCU and Star Wars, if that was common knowledge.
It's not that it's UNCOMMON knowledge so much as deliberate ignorance...sorta like comics "purists" whose knowledge of their source material doesn't go past this century.
It is both. One does Disney a disservice to think that the parks are all what matters. Sure, the movies are important to keep the parks running. But this also works because there are people who genuinely care about those movies. Walt Disney used to be one of those guys, which is why he could give us the golden and silver age of Disney, and Mary Poppins. Ashman and Menken gave us the Disney renaissance. And Feige is genuinely passionate about Marvel.
No people straight don't get it. They know, but they don't get it.
The reason Disney hasn't taken over the world is that iirc they still don't have full theme park rights of Marvel characters
@@swanpride As was said in The Wire, all the pieces matter. Because they all matter in an operation like Disney, their 2010 film output got a lot less sloppy as a result...in addition to having passionate talents like Kevin Feige.
In fairness is not just that this is truth but the degree is genuinely stagering to think about it. The movie stuff in year did within the margin of error of Disney yearly earning.(Meaning you could steal there movie money profit and they wouldn't even feel the financial lost until someone bother to really check. All exept Black Panther year that did slightly higher than 2 percent. Which is just wild. Also explain why they refuse to let there park become national park. They would secede from the union and create there version of the vatican city state but just for the Disney park. Because the park make 70% percent of there yearly profit. I don't think the USA will survive the next 50 years.(If any nation state does) but if there is no nuclear war I think will out live with ease. Lol
Bob rightly sings the praises of the MCU being able to streamline and make friendly some massive and confusing stories by way of adaptation rather than regurgitation but, let me sing the praises of Chipman and his ability to do the same. Bob's winnowing down of the most essential, likely and exciting moves made by Marvel Studios is always engaging and intelligently thought out.
Is he still into Ayn Rand?
"There are like four versions of Justice League and they're all still terrible." Hahahaha. He's not wrong
I just feel like they just weren't even... THERE enough to rise to terrible.
One of the great film miscarriages of all time...the characters they were based on deserved far better.
Hell the fuck no. #BurntheSnyderverse
I was going to comment something like "hey, they can't be that bad"
And then I remembered watching the two I did see...
I mean, there's the DCAU.
Great entry - and that is why Kevin Feige's team is popular with Disney management. He's the first movie leader that has been a reliable and consistent source in feeding interest, fans and IP into the parks.
"There's like four versions of Justice League and they're all terrible"
THANK YOU! #BurntheSnyderverse
To the ground and then salt the earth.
Nerd.
Personally I think the Flashpoint movie should let it keep existing. Kinda the way the Crisis tv special quickly shows footage from the Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern movie. Like hey it’s not good but it has its fans. So here’s a nod for those folks, and going forward we’re just gonna do something different. Not burn it just let it float off into the void. (But that’s just me)
@@mabusestestament Troll.
@Gabe Hcuod
I love you too, Gabe 😘
I think this is a good point, Bob. Thanos is a household name now, not because of the delicate interwoven continuity tracking the path of each Infinity Stone through the universe, but because Infinity War was a damn good movie.
Now, if they just had continuity errors all over the place, that'd be a bad thing, but having a loose, malleable continuity that doesn't sweat the details is the best of both worlds.
Which is also how the comics work when you dealing with dozens of writers across decades of continuity.
I've always thought that the best of the MCU reminded me of hanging out in a TTRPG (i.e. maguffin hunts and interchangeable plot beats assembled primarily as an excuse to hang out with characters and each other) and now I'm wondering if the rise of MCU and the rise of TTRPG podcasts are more culturally connected than just how it feels to me.
When it comes to cultural zeitgeist, everything ultimately connects to everything else. So you're likely right.
If character didn't matter for superhero stories, we'd be talking about the Image Comics Cinematic Universe right now.
Also... "Imagine how we could monetise this in different parts of the world where it has the most appeal! We just have to make everything hang together. Ka-ching!"
Really digging the video 'pull quotes' on this.
Don't you mean "Kang-ching"? 😎
Yeah it's working out really well with Eternals and that other movie in China
I love how your series on THE ETERNALS is dragging on forever.
It’s dragging on ETERNALY
I’m seein double - four big pictures about the eternals!
"just because they reference it doesnt mean they are going to use that" and this is why i dont watch speculation videos
Again, high quality content. I can't help but notice that your editing has gotten much better since you don't have to churn out two or three videos a week for The Escapist.
My 3 favorite MCU properties right now are Thor: Ragnarok, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 1, and Loki.
I want more of THAT formula. Somehow the 'cosmic' side of Marvel is what really won my heart.
Let's be realistic here, Disney makes a significant amount of their money on the merchandising. The parks are *nice*, but ultimately the parks are just one more piece of merch they can sell you alongside the t-shirts and dolls and action figures and dresses and mugs and ice skating shows and hats.
Like, we all know the reason the Disney Princesses line exists, right? It's bcause an executive was at one of the ice shows and saw little girls in perfect princess dress replicas. He asked their moms where they got them, and was told said moms had made the dresses, with considerable time and expense, because it was that important to their daughters, and he realized that holy shit, there was a whole market here and Disney was just not selling them anything to fill it. That's the actual story.
Still undersells the parks a little. Merch helps but as Bob puts it, the parks are why Disney survived a LOT of lean years between studio boom periods. Just looking at the raw financials probably would back that up.
In years that aren't covid, the parks made something like 20-25 billion (with a b) per year.
Their media stuff, now that they have Pixar and Marvel and Starwars and Disney+ and major television networks, makes about as much *now*, but that wasn't really the case until this decade.
Historically the parks have been where they make the vast majority of their money that got them through the rough periods when the movie studios were faltering.
Not quite true. The parks are a sure bank. Merch is certainly important, too, but the parks continue to chuck along and sell merch even when Disney has some lean years. Merch can be pretty unpredictable, but the parks are (when there isn't a pandemie going on) a sure source of income.
Yeah, they even tried to turn Star Wars into Disney princesses.
Bob, for some reason I found this particular video more coherent and easier to follow than some of our previous ones - even other Marvel videos. Not throwing shade, just something I noticed with this one. Nice work!
I love your writing. Ending was a great cliffhanger. Can't wait for more!
The meteor is the dead/dying celestial, with the Panther God (Bast?) As the spirit of the celestial who communicated with early wakandans to eventually develop a technology to revive them millennia later.
And speaking of Bast, remember we got Thor: Love and Thunder, where the main villain is Gorr the God Butcher and the Greek pantheon shows up. More than likely the Egyptian pantheon also exists.
Upvoted. Very plausible.
Genuinely lmfao at Zangief going "You got paid...?" 🤣 Thanks for reminding me that existed.
I feel like I could use this video as a way to teach a class on writing good D&D campaigns. Good characters at the core, full lore and continuity doesn't need to exist first.
That was a fantastic breakdown about how Disney functions as an entity and where their real money lies. And capped off with a great analogy :)
"I was counting down "three, two, one" in my head to the "faaaake" clip and I was not disappointed.
Lol me too. I'd honestly have completely forgotten about that clip if this show didn't constantly bring it up when continuity is mentioned - not that I'm complaining, haha.
@@Phourc And Cate Blanchett just makes that moment work, doesn't she?
Thanks for these Bob. Fascinating, utterly bonkers and good fun to watch.
Everything you laid out is why I love the MCU so much. Character First is my favorite approach to fiction
There was a time when Marvel favored story over characters: the Dark Age of Comics. This is what got us all those interchangeable cookie-cutter Rob Liefeld characters.
2:43 well I can’t say I don’t appreciate them looking into it because yeah, I watched all of that and loved it.
Who would have thought that the freaking Eternals would ever get one episode, let alone four?
The “temples and gods” metaphor made the point perfectly.
man this eternals thing has gotten out of hand well more content from Bob is always good
Me: *Watches media about weird comic continuity, high concept ideas, multiverse/time travel bullshit, and complicated stories for as long as I can remember*
Me: I am sure I can handle the stuff Bob is going to talk about in these videos.
Me: Oh no I've gone cross eyed
When not even COMICS.....ARE....WEIRD can do this stuff justice
I'm just glad to see Gemma Chan get a lead roll. was great to see her in Cap't Marvel as a sniper, but she deserves the promo.
Of all the topics to be covered on this show for future MCU installments, this is one that really feels like a project. As in, having to read up a whole lot (i.e. watch the previous two videos) before you can even begin to think about how it all fits into wherever it's all going. This isn't just "character with special abilities adjacent to this established part of the MCU" or "character meant to be the jumping off point for X concept". It comes pre-packaged with SOOOOOO much baggage and heavy, universe spanning implications that it really is that big of a pain in the ass to wrap your mind around all of it.
Oh no, I've gone cross-eyed!
Hahahaha I had to screen F you when you said find out on the next episode!!! amazing work super entertaining!!!! Love to see your insights on this .. SOOOO GOOOD
Let's see about 5 or 6 videos all talking about insanely complicated filn story stuff, business stuff, multiple film studio continuity, and comic to film adaptation theories.....and still easier to understand than both Spider-man and Emperor Palpatine clone sagas.
Pfft I just noticed when you were talking about the Black Knight, you had the Martin Lawrence movie "The Black Knight" as b-roll 🤣
While Feige is pretty open with the fact that, as Bob says, most of the continuity is retro- and they always focus on individual movies ahead of the grander scheme, I feel like the true unsung talent of the studio (as opposed to the sung talents like casting and character writing) is their exceptional ability to make any given plot point _seem_ like it was planned all along. To a degree that people who should know better believe there's some grand intricate plan, as if that wouldn't be a terrible way to design a film franchise.
In other words, they're good at winging it. Or it's all jazz
When I think of unsung talent at Marvel Studios, I inevitably circle back to Sarah Finn's impeccable casting and writing talents like Markus & Mcfeely and Jac Schaefer.
@@johnathonhaney8291 on one hand, I would like for them to get more recognition, and the other hand, i hope they get plenty among their colleagues and industry, and I do not want them subjected to the fandom wolves.
@@katherinealvarez9216 That last part especially do I agree with. The Fandom Menace is a nasty Borg cube of awfulness no human being deserves. But the point before that on getting recognized by their peers, I'd like to think they are.
Funny thing about how M&M's progress through MCU seems to be paralleling Schaefer's own current rise. People forget M&M started their stint on MCU with Captain America The First Avenger, which was really the first MCU film to tie everything back together. They'd go onto be screenwriters for Infinity War and Endgame as a result. Schaefer starts as screenwriter on Captain Marvel (The Second Avenger as I call it) and now has now hit a home run with Wandavision and is heavily involved in many Phase 4 projects.
oh EFF Me what an amazeballs episode. Great job as usual Bob. BTW Isn't the dude who ran the parks before now the new Head of Disney?!
Yes, handpicked to be the new CEO by Iger himself, I believe.
consider disney's other big revenue stream; toys. sure, you can market toys by recreating a specific scene in a movie, but if you get people invested in specific characters, they'll buy up every version of it they can.
One of Disney's franchises exists mainly because of the toy line. The Cars movies aren't critical darlings, but the real money is the Lightning McQueen toys that kids love to race around.
How is it surprising that the Black Knight would show up in the MCU? The character has regularly been a member of the Avengers since like... 1969. The only missing usual Avengers characters besides him are like... Hercules, Wonderman and She-Hulk.
4:46 and I don’t understand how or why this is a bad thing. There are tv shows that last for years because of this or some other reason. And I never watch the Fast and Furious movies, but they run on spectacle, absurdity and the fact that people like the cast?
The logic is sound enough. Get people to care about the characters and they'll keep coming back. It's why Smallville is still remembered as the only successful adaptation of Superman this century.
On Bob's Twitter there was a dude that said something to the effect of "Marvels biggest mistake was focusing on character" and this bit is Bob explaining why characters are the most important part of a story
@@pnyxx1 someone actually said that? And they were being serious?
@@pnyxx1 Marvel's whole thing since the launch of the Fantastic Four has been telling stories about characters...
@@katherinealvarez9216 Yep...I saw that myself sadly. Spoken like a true hack who never got past the slush pile, that guy was.
Wooww love the examination 💪🏼 I feel this is too spot on
Black knight was also a very important part of the recent big crossover event in the comics. That push has to come from some big execs at marvel studios
Which event was this?
Underappreciated Street Fighter The Movie line that's actually better than "For me...it was just Tuesday."
Had trouble not waking my wife up laughing.
Leaving us on a cliffhanger of Venom and Morbius? You magnificent bastard! But, I do have to give you credit for making two really bad Spiderman-adjacent movies interesting.
I seriously missed these from you, man.
Good to see them back.
Perfect that you choose to show the "formula" that lets Mario & Co. collect coins.
The best proof of "they work backwards, and retcon what they need to for the sake of Continuity" has got the be the Reality Stone, which was a LIQUID in Thor 2. Asgardians hand over a liquid to Tanalier Tavan, and when Thanos shows up he puts a rock on his glove. How? Its so easy it doesn't matter. Rocket Raccoon uses a hyper hypodermic needle to draw it from Jane Foster in Endgame. Rockify that, unassumingly! Give Steve a rock in a suitcase and send him into the past and everyone knows he can liquefy and inject it with ease...
"Fake" - Hela BEST LINE OF THE WHOLE MCU!!! Can we get her back PLZ!!!!!!
Bob,
I have been a huge fan of yours for many years. I saw your tweet the other day, where were discussing your schedule. It talked about that you were getting paid to produce content, which needed to be taken care of before you finish your content for your own channel.
I was wondering where fans could find your new paid content? Is it on Film Theory, or another channel? Also, what are the best ways to support your work? I have bought your merchandise and constantly watch your main channel?
Thank you for entertaining and informing us
I believe Kevin Feige has already come out to say that any property that was not fully made with Marvel Studios is non canon to the main timeline, but obviously with the multiverse exists somewhere.
i wonder...shortly after Black Panther, I said that the Vibranium mountain meteor, was the Celestial's head and body crashing to Earth....we may find out in November how accurate that is.
3:17 Yeah, that's the oddest thing about the MCU that no one talks about; From the beginning, they took the B, C and D list heroes and made billions which makes all the studios with their A characters look bad.... or were they looking bad on their own? "What, you want yellow spandex?"... as I wrote that, I realize we never got Wolverine, only ever Logan.
Some people are OK with that but some people ain't me.
We would pay to watch Thor and Rocket Cooking Power Hour and I kinda find it silly they haven't giving us something like it because can you imagine how cheap that would be to make, and yet could also still be so fun to watch, or maybe better Peter (spiderman) tries to teach Thor and Nebula how to cook, while Bruce (still as Doctor Hulk) watches from the sidelines because the kitchen is too small for him to help, so he just is offering support and advice (badly) from the table in the attached room. And trust me it would make all of its money and then some back
The best part of Age of Ultron was the startwhere they were just lounging around talking. All the robot army stuff was boring.part.
The 'I am so tired' clip has never been so relavent. I suspect it will be showing up in the next video, but slowed down, reverbd, and *B A S S B O O S T E D*
I would have thought Avengers: Endgame would have settled any debate on the existence of other timelines. After all, the second Thanos came from some parallel timeline. The Ancient One actually discussed other timelines with their own Infinity Stones, some of which are possessed by the TVA. Perhaps these are "variant" stones taken when their timeline was reset?
They do basically say that in the show. Much like the Tesseract came from a place that no longer existed after Loki escaped
“That’s…very nearly the Big Picture, I promise.”
… three episodes later…
I really really don't care about Sony's bootleg Spider-Man universe with movies focusing on B-grade Spidey villains.
Well, uh... I guess those connections apply to Spiderverse too, right? We all like that one.
Into The Spiderverse is the real deal, the MCU etc. is the B-grade spidey bootleg universe 😘
@@rayelgatubelo 'Into the Spiderverse' actually HAS Spider-Man in it (in fact, multiple ones)
I'm talking specifically about all of these weird villain focused movies that don't have Spider-Man at all in them (except for maybe some vague references)
Who the hell cares about a Morbius movie?! Or even a Black Cat one?
Venom was BAD! (A few fun scenes with Tom Hardy are not going to change my mind about how bland and boring that movie was)
How the fuck is venom “B-grade”?
Thank you! I’m always telling people Disney is a real estate company, not an entertainment company so much, kinda like McDonalds or a religious organization.
I'm confused about that distinction. A real estate company would mean they make their bank by buying and selling land. But they buy it, build resorts on it, and run them. Wouldn't that make them primarily a hospitality company? Or am I missing something?
Actually, now I that think about it, if you're right and Gemma Chan is gonna fall for Kit Harrington, the song from the teaser makes sense.
"The End Of The World" as sung by Skeeter Davis...goddamn, that is a haunting piece of torch singing in its entirety.
@@johnathonhaney8291 I looked for it. Davis did have a beautiful singing voice.
...frankly, I don't think that this is even all that complicated. Marvel and Disney have both realised that while big names are a draw for people, an even bigger draw is a well-told story with compelling characters. Plus, it is smarter to sprinkle in some of the "smaller" characters like the Eternals (just like they did with the Guardians of the Galaxy) now when they still have bigger names to come to cover for some failure than use up the famous ones first.
Which is why, as a writer myself, I always want to SCREAM at all the excuses the haters put for Marvel's success. If you start with the characters and then build your story around them properly, your job is more than half-done.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Pretty much. And that isn't as easy as it sounds.
@@swanpride Well do I know!
So, bascially pts 1 and 2 were the jumping off point to "How is this going to fit the MCU?".
I didn't care about the history of the Eternals within Marvel, but the discussion about how Disney conducts their business was interesting.
Something else to consider is that the Eternals traditionally are meant to keep the Deviants in check. Considering we haven't seen any Deviants in the trailer, a twist Marvel could pull would be to replace Deviants with Mutants. It might also explain the something of a retcon redemption arc Apocalypse has received in marvel comics recently.
This would be a hell of a take and help to weld together the Mutant parts of Marvel to Eternals quite nicely!
This also fits the character first approach Bob talks about as well. What better way to hit on the dangers of tribalism-centric pathos of being an X-Men then to have them literally be held down by an elite group that has existed since the dawn of the millennia. Seems like a good allegory for racist, ableist, etc, institutions.
As I recall Disney bought Marvel so they could have stuff aimed at young boys (i.e. superheroes and suchlike) in house. That and the "Disney wants superhero stuff for its theme parks" idea are compatible.
I hope he does a video explaining Shang-chi
There is no question in my mind that No Way Home is going to include a scene where Tom Holland Spiderman calls out to the multiverse and assembles the Spidermen. And the top three "Spidermen" that show up are for sure going to be Gwen Stacy, Miles Morales, and Tom Hardy Venom.
And in the event it doesn't happen, will you judge it a failure for not being your head canon?
MAYBE this would be a good time for a video about: Comic book continuity! We have 3 Spider-men and Miles Morales, two X-men verisions, two FFs, etc. NOW, the movie audience understands the odd is-or-is-not that comic readers have always known. :)
Man, covering this stuff just takes an _eternity…_
Boo! Boo this man!
So when Disney finally decides to buy Hasbro how will they incorporate GI Joe and Transformers into this mess?
It's already been established that the Marvel TV shows are no longer canon since they had no measuable effect on the movies. So Inhumans and AoS are out along with The netflix shows, Hellstrom, Cloak and Dagger, and any X-men property that ever existed before today)... at least until they come up with a way to link them to some sort of multiversal addendum same as Morbius and Venom I would assume, that would allow them to be something relevant even if they dont directly connect with the MCU's "sacred timeline." I'm guessing this is where the Loki and Multiverse of Madness (written by the same person) comes in.
In regards to why they're using the Black Knight, the truth is that with other characters like Iron Man, Cap, Thor and Hulk either leaving or their actors getting a little too old to keep doing this, we're probably going to see Marvel leveraging more characters who have "something there" but never quite made it across the finish line. With Black Knight you have a whole Marvel Super-Heroes meets Arthurian Legend thing that can be exploited. I mean, Captain Britain has the whole Arthurian thing and the multiverse thing, but Marvel's still workshopping that property on the comics side and a solid concept wouldn't be ready by when they need it. It's honestly just a bit of a head-scratcher as to why he's being introduced in Eternals aside from the Sersi connection. Will they somehow tie the Eternals to Arthurian legend? I don't know. But yeah, expect to get some movies that make you go "They're making a movie about them? Okay, I guess." I could see them doing maybe a Ka-Zar movie. I could see them doing a Tigra movie just based on how strong her design is (Great design even when tweaked to be more modest. She always lacked a good direction, though). There's probably a ton more they could use.
We're getting Kang but I wouldn't put it past Marvel to throw in Rama Tut as well somehow. He's being used as punching bag these days but doing a scenario where a guy has to actually fight a different version of himself? Isn't that a "take that" to complaints of people saying "Well, the villain is just the hero but evil! They do it every time!"
Marvel: "This time, you're right... and you're also wrong because he's an ALTERNATE version of himself!" Or not, it's Kang and it's confusing on purpose.
And here's hoping Kang leads to a GOOD version of Dr Doom.
I have a tinfoil hat theory that Disney is gonna do secret wars as their next big event and basically make it their days of future past, aka "let's clean up the timeline a bit, so we can fit as many superheroes franchises under the Disney banner. We're gonna keep this movie/character/thing as cannon cause everyone loved that and we're gonna prune everything else." and I don't think that it will be called secret wars, I think it will be called Spider-man: No Way Home, it's called no way home cause spidey is literally gonna be on another planet and so will be a mix of the x-men, ( I don't think fantastic four will be, cause I think marvel is just gonna reboot that causes the other two aren't really looked on favorably), other heroes, and villains
Also Bob you may have something here with Morbius as... Mobius M Mobius of Loki actually admitted to catching VAMPIRES
Counterpoint... Literally ALL of the animated Justice League movies are fantastic. I have no idea why they can't just remake one of those in live actions.
Do you trust WB's current management not to once again screw up the job? Because I do...and that is why it is they leave those ALONE.
Shout outs for the JCVD SF movie reference
In the comics, Shuri wields the Ebony Blade for a while. I'm sure they'll use that to help push her character in Wakanda Forever.
So long as we can agree, as Bob said, there is no grand plan for that specific plot beat, yeah?
@@johnathonhaney8291 as they get closer to filming they will inevitably form a plan though and using the comics as at least a jumping off point only makes logical sense. That said, they have shown on many occasions the knowledge, skill, ability, and willingness to deviate from the source material as the narrative may call for it. Make no mistake, they are aware of that plot point and are certainly holding onto the idea of adapting to the movies if they think that it could enhance the story they are telling.
@@majinvegeta6364 Fair enough...unless they get a better idea that could work even better. We do have 60 years of comics to draw from, after all.
@@johnathonhaney8291 💯
I'll tell you what Marvel's biggest problem is that's rendering everything so damn dark that you have to bust up the brightness setting on your television or tablet to see anything. When did this become a thing where rendering everything darker makes it better for some reason as if if there are colors on the screen we might get bored or think it's for children. It's as if the guy from the original underworld movie started directing every movie in Hollywood and it makes me sick to my stomach. I miss the time where movies were actually seeable and bright
I’m still waiting on that internals/Star Wars crossover😁
Interestingly, James Gunn's the only director I heard said there's room for the MCU AND a DC Movieverse. DC and WB just have to get their acts together and focus on why their characters are worth watching, like who the yare as people and what they can do. I thought Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and SHAZAM! got that right.
The Marvel Movies bombed at the box office because Iron Man didn't help Sgt Ross hunt down The Hulk, and everybody hated that.
8:22 - until we get a critical mass of these that don't make sense? Because Odin had to have that there BEFORE Eitri was forced to make it by Thanos. Maybe Hela meant the stones, but that'd be obvious and the gauntlet was the object of derision.
Or how did Fury get a Helicarrier for AoU after WS?
I mean, sure, you're probably right about Disney, but perhaps there's enough viewers for who good character alone aren't enough after a time, and story and world building matter in greater part. In contrast to Gunn: LoTR.
First line of part 4: so remember that whole “very nearly the big picture” thing from last episode. About that...
In re the Multiverse part - did I miss something? I thought Spider-Man: No Way Home and Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness were both coming out after The Eternals.
Holy crap. First. Last time i came this early i got a daughter out of it.
I just hope that the stinger for the Eternals movie is the Celestials declaring Machine Man to be a total ☠️☠️☠️☠️.
Great, now we'll have to whait another week yo know how No Way Home could involve the Multiverse, given how relatively grounded the Spider-Man movies had been in the MCU
Yeah, I'm with you. This fixation on multiverse, I blame on WB selling that concept before once again shitting the bed.
@@johnathonhaney8291 the multiverse was the best chance Warner had to make a product that offered something Marvel didn't have, but they took too long and now Marvel is going to beat them on that race too
@@Mario_Angel_Medina AGAIN...same with a second generation of superheroes, which WB/DC never got a handle on.
I may have, to rewatch these to keep the continuity together, that is a lot to take it, hell I'm only excited because Neil Gaiman did a good take on the eternals and that was my only exposure to them up til this point.
For the algorithm!
I really hate TH-cam for making an algorithm that encourages creators to split up their work into four 20 min-ish segments to get them out once a week instead of just taking the time to make a complete work.
Essays shouldn't have fucking cliffhangers.
Gotta say I don't hate the whole "The SonyVerse might actually be MCU-canon" idea.
I do...with a vengeance. Only reason I'm not screaming about is because I'm confident Marvel Studios will keep them on the straight and narrow.
You'd have many more subscribers if you did Overthinker again, but early format before you put weird character stuff in, the first Overthinker episodes were brilliant.
That's very nearly the big picture. For now. Theoretically.
So.... Where would The Beyonder/Beyonders fit into this!?
Wasn't it officially stated that Venom is not part of the MCU?
'Official statements' last as long as they are considered useful to the officials in question. Once something pops up that makes that statement actually *costs* them something, even if that thing is just the *opportunity* to make money... they'll drop it like a hot potatoe.
Somewhere Marvel is doing a super villain yell. SOOOOONNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Sony wishes...it's more like Funky Flashman and Houseroy when it comes to Marvel Studios and Sony Pictures these days.
Couldn't think of a way to shoehorn the Scarlet Centurion in? :)
Maybe next time...and side note, he also happens to pop in my favorite Bronze Age Marvel Comics maxiseries Squadron Supreme.