To clarify! When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro. Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation. What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself. Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation. But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both "You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon "They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? About as against him as the deadly six "There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly. "Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge. Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered. As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad. "Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses? If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping. Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders. They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
Let's make this interesting... I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished. "why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario" Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in. "They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs" Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs" "Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built" Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match. As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match. "They don't use the hard-boiled heavies" I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1. As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King) "Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed" True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis. Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit). "The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real" ...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better. "Infinite downplay" Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea). *However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget). "Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?" Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.) Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items. "Solaris downplay" ...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally. "Where's Starline?" One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in. "The best for Bowser is inaccessible." Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so. "5D scaling" Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit "Spatial displacement trap" Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good. Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought. "The metal virus" Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few* 1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects) 2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol) 3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game). "The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby" No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek) "The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)" The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win. "The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.) Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has. "Loyalty doesn't matter" Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one. "Eggman's ambitions aren't as high" Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section. Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
I mean, Mario fans can actually say it with high ground of being right. Even most Sonic fans would agree even if reluctantly that the 2010’s were no easy time for Sonic while the "lows" of Mario games are not that bad. It’s like an American saying the US has better gastronomy than France. It’s straight up wrong.
Because it shows he biased. He is only scaling Eggman but NOT BOWSER. If you're going to scale in a vs battle, scale both characters instead of just one
Bro was basically and bro crying way to much like damn the sonic Fandom can't fucking accept logic that the mario verse simply is just to powerful for the sonic universe to take on
@hiddenflare6169 I'm apart of the sonic and mario fan- actually nevermind I'm never joining the sonic Fandom not after the art that is in both for the characters.
@hiddenflare6169 also it's not one person it's multiple people because everytime I go into any comment section for any mario character beating a sonic character then the sonic fans cry and complain and start saying everything in the book about how they should have won without looking into the facts for the mario characters.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort. Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well. At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain Fuck Forces though
@@Unremarkable6969 Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces. Thwomp'd
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
I dont think death battle has ever used immeasurable speed or like 5d AP. They just get the numbers REALLY REALLY high. Also i had no idea eggmans MAIN goal is to make a theme park. Whyd he nuke the moon then😭😭😭
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
Ok just pointing something out here. The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we: Bowser team: -Himself -Bowser Jr -Kamek -King Boo -Filler troops Eggman team: -Death Egg Robot -Death Egg -Egg Dragoon -Sage -Metal Sonic -Infinite -Filler troops So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair. Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
15:10 You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began "this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2" he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand). Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies. he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
I think my biggest gripe is how they try to hand wave Time Eater by saying bowser could just wish everything back to normal or out of existence. 1) TE scales WAY above the Dream Stone, there's nothing to suggest Bowser could just wish people away or he would have done it a long time ago and 2) Time Eater does far more than just eat time. It completely displaces it. It could easily just bring every major sonic villain back at full power and multiple eggmans and there's just nothing he could do at that point. It is literally the ultimate Trump card without Sonic or Shadow around. He's not killing it, he's not wishing it away, and it's by far the most broken thing to have on your team.
Except Bowser literally says on screen IN THE GAME, that the Dream Stone gives him the power to wish away anything. DB shows it on the screen so you know what they're referring to, lol. That's the whole reason Bowser wanted the Dream Stone.
@MindForgedManacle and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement? He's not eggman, he didn't sit there and study the thing to learn about it. If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost. But he did, so it's clearly not anywhere near as powerful as it's stated to be in game. It has no feats to back itself up. Time Eater on the other hand has the entirety of generations as his feat. You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist.
@KotalaGod he was literally going to wish mario and Luigi out of existence in the game itself, and probably did that because of how many times he's been betrayed or had things go wrong for him, he was only stopped because peach and starlow pulled a power out of nowhere in order to stop him, Once he absorbed the dream stone however, the rules changed, with the dream stone now a part of bowser, he didn't have to worry about his new power being taken from him any more, meaning he felt he could take the time to defeat the bros properly and have the satisfaction of beating them himself, And by the same logic you're using to debunk dreamy bowser, the time Eater could have just come back and finished sonic off at any time in sonic generations and should of just trapped him in white space like it did to his friends, but it didn't,
@@KotalaGod "and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement?" Because everywhere throughout the game that is directly confirmed. Antasma says it (and he's working with Bowser), Dreambert says it, Eldream says it. It's not just Bowser, don't be absurd. they all say the same thing: It can grant any wish. "If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost" You know you can just look at the game and see how they actually avoided that: Peach and Starlow attack Bowser before he could use the Dream Stone. It's not that it didn't work, he says "Dream Stone! Disappear 'em" and then he's attacked. He only every inhales the fragments, and never uses the wish granting power in the Dreamy Form. "You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist." You realize that the Dream Stone can make something not exist, right? That's what Bowser was trying to do when peach and Starlow destroyed it from behind him.
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
Yeah that's just a given. Game Sonic characters especially have it the worst, Archie Sonic characters have it a bit better but it's still not great, like at all
@@Unremarkable6969 Boooooooo!! Your mom! Boooooooo!! You're mid! Boooooooo!! You're comeback is terrible! Booooooooo!! Go cry over your mom's ashes! Boooooooooo!! You Sonic man child! Boooooooooo!!
Bro here I am thinking, why didn’t they just make this fight a tie? Both are proven to have feats that are almost equal to one another. Couldn’t they have just set this up for a sequel between their troops with the aftermath being both Eggman and Bowsers death?
Because making it a tie is boring and defeats the point of having a DB. It can be funny like one. They've already done it before. This was a perfectly fine setup and had a conclusion that made sense.
@@MindForgedManacle Fair enough. I just miss those sort of battles that end up in the destruction of both sides. It could've set up into a battle where after the two mains are down, The minions and sidekicks pick up where they left off. My personal opinion which could be wrong.
I thought that both would probably die and then in the future could arise something like "sage and the titans vs bowser jr and his brothers" something like that that could have some normal ending
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser. It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side: Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper. The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common. Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with. I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
I sided with Bowser at the beginning, but even after he won I still felt that Eggman and his team were limited on what they can do. Not to mention the song lyrics and cover immediately made people realize that Bowser was going to win at the end
How were they limited? They had the Phantom Ruby and all the Emeralds from the jump. If they got any more than that, then they'd be limiting Bowser since he wasn't given any reality warping items he's had.
@@MindForgedManacle The Phantom Ruby prototypes, the Sonic Shuffle items if we're going by DB logic, the Power of the Stars, and the list likely includes more.
@@riomo4076 You have to be specific. They explained why they didn't give Eggman the prototypes (they're hard countered by the Wonder Flower, which is a universal reality warper). What Sonic Shuffle item? Chance Time is literally just Kamek using his teleportation power, it's not a board game mechanic thing. Again, they had the ruby and all the Emeralds from the start. Bowser had, what, 1 Grand Star? Come on dude, limited my foot.
@@MindForgedManacleThey also argued that the Phantom Ruby only warps perception, When its got more than that (teleportation and warping). The fake ruby at the end of Forces alone created a literal sun, as well as warping character to a different realm. Also they wouldve given Bowser more of the stars since they mentioned multiple existing while unfortunately only the emeralds are limited to just seven. I also feel like they kinda downplayed Eggman but I still agree with Bowser winning
@@Linear_Line_423 They downplayed Eggman but still Time Eater just counters many things since: -Its a primordial entity which exists in nothingness which makes it immune to any means of Magic -Put the Chaos Emeralds in a limbo in Gens meaning it could do the same for The Stars -Took Super Forms to harm it but still was able to harm said Super Forms -Is able to bring back past Villains and potentially pit Bowser against em -Brought back Mephiles or if we bring back The Time Stones which Eggman could also have...meaning he is far superior with Time Hax. He could also have The Egg Wizard which would also mean an instant win. If you don't know the Egg Wizard search it up. Its basically what Dreamy Bowser is supposed to be. Also, Nightmare Eggman kinda has no counter
17 minutes to tell us "I'm salty, I didn't read the black boxes, and it is possible to wank Eggman while using anti-feats for Bowser." That certainly was the debunk video of all time.
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
They did in fact mention the egg salamander and the fact that the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds are universal threat Yes I understand they didn’t say it directly but we can’t expect LITERALLY EVERYTHING they’ve ever done to be said in words or be featured in the animation Sometimes we just have to let the black boxes and arsenal screens speak for themselves Also a personal nit pick. Your comment of “proceeds to not use this in the fight” goes both ways because you know who else wasn’t in the fight? The Koopalings That was an epic edit of Infinite though so props on that
To quote a famous person “The person who would win in a fight is the person the script writers want to win, these are fictional characters so stop asking these boneheaded questions.”
Indeed, though calling it impenetrable and expecting that t to apply no matter what could be a no limits fallacy, it's probably not nullifying attacks from the likes of beruss and thanos, That said, I don't think DB bothered to try and calc it's durability either
*grand stars. Yes the wonder flower and grand star can counter the phantom ruby and chaos emeralds. A grand star collapsed and nearly destroy marios universe and required rosalina to re set it back to before the festival. The wonder flower can effect time by slowing it down or speeding it up, also it was able to turn a entire kingdom into bowser territory quickly.
Also wanna say something. You can very easily scale bowser to 5D. This isn't even wank. If i wanted to wank bowser. The dream stone makes him infinite Dimensional and High outer. In Mario galaxy, their is a location called the Matter Splatter Galaxy. Wich is very very explicity a 4th dimensional space. Both via the kanji. As well as how the space operates. So given how our universe opperates with 4 dimensions, 3 physical contained by the 4th dimension of time. The mario universe must be similar. With 5 dimensions in the universe, 4 Observable. And the 5th being more abstract caging in the other 4. And bowsers galaxy generator. Not just the black hole at the end of the game. Is stated to be able to destroy this universe easily.
@@XenoSonicFan I'm not the inventor of the scaling chain. From what I looked into. Its due to both string theory being present in Mario cosmology. And the dream stone being infinite Dimensional. Both Mario and bowser survived things that would have destroyed the entire Mario cosmology. So yeahm pretty simple.
Alphatale has string theory, in order for it to work properly it must feature a Higgs Particle. And the concept of Alternate Universes. Realistically Mario doesn't have anything with String Theory Dreamy Bowser actual has more anti feats then feats. There's proof for this when Dreamy Bowser got stomped by the base form of the brothers. Even then that makes no sense, unless base Mario is Outerversal, than that means Kirby is Boundless which he obviously isn't. As a fan of Kirby that's just wank.
Nah... I'm an huge Sonic fan (Mario's player too). I really found the animation, the battle, the music etc... pretty nice, I loved it. But the analisis it's a bit unfair and out of place, probably in a video that only proposes the fight this wouldn't be a problem, but since they tries to explain on dettails WHY one character beats another one it's obvious that people will argument about it.
@@ImperatoChri I know, I don't say he can't access it with Jr's help. What I'm talking about is that I thought Bowser couldn't control himself as Fury Bowser, not that he couldn't become Fury Bowser
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine. But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
No matter how powerful Bowser is with feats,magic,scaling,durability....I'll still always love Eggman no matter what. Since childhood he was my favorite villain & I'm not only like Eggman than other character in Sonic universe. He always makes me smile whenever he appears & he never goes away. Bowser couldn't win without Jr. Or changing time either. Bowser literally died twice,once by Neo Metal Sonic & again by the Death Egg Laser Blast. If Sage in the future obtains magical abilities,somehow bringing Eggman back to life & call it the Egg-shell skeleton or counter Jr.s wand with (Egg-Wand or something) he could turn Bowser,Jr & his army into scrap metal. I love Eggman no matter what & death battle isn't the end & be all or cannon. As Canonicaly Eggman & Bowser are friends & took the London signts together. GG the Eggman Empire-
Yes, but you could also say that without metal Sonic Eggman would have lost much earlier. And he didn't die twice. The first time was only a "knockout" and the second time... is it really a death when you become Dry Bowser? I'm not sure about that😅
@Nunchchucks Not true. Neo Metal Sonic went right through his body & Bowser was down. Jr had to revive him. & that blast from the laser ripped right through the fury form into the bones. The whole "knockout" may not even be reliable anyway since all we know is Eggman has multiple decoys and just left entirely. It's pointless to discuss this as what's done is done & I could care less. As for the skeleton thing, hence why I mentioned there should now be a "Egg skeleton" version of Eggman & Egg wand to counter Kamek & Jr Sega has already made Eggman turn super,used a nightmare version of him,may as well make a third form where he's a cartoony skeleton body of him but still has his mustache. It could very well happen. Metal Sonic definitely did carry the fight & made the fight last longer, but the point still stands. If Metal wasn't added, then they would have just had Sage bring out all the titans. That's all I'm saying & I'm not going to get into it.
@@PokyDaBesto what random cenarios tho? I see valid ones, some more wow then others but still valid, cant people question the results just because the animation was peak?
@@Kurouso2099 look at the third pharagraph of the comment (cant really tell if its serious or if its a joke) and yea the animation in this db is absolute peak, my favourite one so far
Death Battle just loves to downplay Sonic Characters Fr, first in DK vs knuckles, they didn't even allow knuckles to use his super form (even though that was clearly his trump card) In sonic vs mario, they claim sonic is only hypersonic What's next Wario can beat Shadow the hedgehog?? 💀 They either heavily nerf a character or just straight up gaslight you when it comes to their feats
Tbf, DK and Knuckles didn’t get super forms because like in the first MvS vid, they said their power up’s and transformations counter each other And just like Luigi Vs Tails. Both fights only gave them items that was unique to them As for Sonic Not being faster than light.. yeah that was bad research back then. But at least they believe it now
Mario games are boring, to me anyway. Galaxy is a lot of fun, 64 holds up today and paved the way for 3D gaming, but the series as a whole just doesn't do it for me.
@@Iaintgivingumahemail This 'opinion' displays a clear bias for the losing side, and makes almost all of his claims dismissable as bias. In other words, not a great look for an analytical debunking.
Honestly for powers saying that eggman needed to swap in between suits, I believe that he could pull an iron man with sage and have her pilot it (I mean he says she can in frontiers and there’s no reason to think she can’t do it herself) so even then it’s a draw as they can use the powers to their full capacity
If mine memoey is corect in sonic 3 he put some egg robot's to control sone od his old boss robot's so I gess he could just put one of them to control the robot's
@@colvamoon6962ik but with her aiding Sonic and even piloting a titan to help Sonic it’s not out of possibility for her to pilot any of the more higher end robots, like the one in rush
Even as a big Sonic fan, I can say with full confidence that bowser wins this fight. Some Sonic fans just can’t accept the fact that their favorite character lost.
Favorite? Bro.. i think you aren't a fan. You just agree with death battle even without going for your own research. Scalers are smart, death battle are half smart.
Doubt lad I seen Eggman do things that seem more impressive At least give some evidence Because people whined Mario couldn't win And even better when Elden Ring wins rewards there are Nintendo fans crying that Nintendo lost So let's be honest It can be the same here
@@SansINess53Power scalers need to pick up a dictionary and look at the word “subjectivity”. All power scaling is subjective, and just because Death Battle has a different interpretation doesn’t mean it’s incorrect
@thestormthatisapproaching6705 yeah but at the same time, they've certainly shown bias. So I don't think death battle is really reliable. You should go scale on your own with math or take the most sensible ones.
I think I saw some people commenting on the Death Battle video itself saying that this was a make-up for Mario vs. Sonic 2. Was the fight itself really that bad, or was it to do with the research, or the animation?
@@Doomblade3890 The fight was genuinely bad. Animation was good, but research was pretty meh and they rigged the fight to work in Mario's favor. The beginning was pretty okay but it gets worse once they start downplaying Sonic.
@@Uesr2004D yes Time Eater affected by multiple timelines, The chaos emerald that has shown multiple times to protect the user From getting erase to being affected by magic, it will continue to make you stronger solaris was erasing timelines and universes but could not effect supersonic Shadow and silver
So far the Sonic Series has gotten only 6 Victories and the victors were (Amy Rose vs Ramona Flowers) Amy Rose (Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver) Archie Silver (Shadow vs Ryuko) Shadow (Mario vs Sonic 2011) Sonic (Luigi vs Tails) Tails (Eggman vs Wily) Metal Sonic
Even though Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver used the traditional Sprite animations, that song they had ("Hedge of Tomorrow") is hands down my all-time favorite Death Battle song. That goes SOOOOOOO freakin' hard, with or without the battle!
@@CalebWhite-l6n I really hope one day they remake that DB since it was back in the season one days where they didn't do as much in-depth analysis. Remaking it along with the modern day research and animation would be absolute peak.
Man, I am a Sonic fan and even I can see that you're so salty lmao. I do agree with them that Bowser likely wins in this scenario, I do in fact think they did a pretty good job, because this fight never was about physical stats, it was about who had the most haxiest abilities and armies (Yes this was confirmed to be an army fight before the episode even released so... Gotta Go Inform Yourself), since both could scale to basically the same amount of power and immesuarable speeds (no, I won't take your take of "Mario scaling only to 4D" as granted since they are ways to get him way above that). I disagree with your opinion, but I won't be an asshole bout it, after all, we all have different opinions on these kind of subjective debates don't we?
Not only are there ways to get Mario characters at 5D or more with generous scaling but using the same bad faith often used by Sonic fans would stop the Sonic verse at 4D too.
I'm just gonna say this, Death Battle gave Bowser his Fury form, I've played Bowser's Fury and I'm just gonna say. Fury Bowser is a liability to the Koopa Troops, Bowser cannot control it and has no sense of who he is when he is in that form
Potentially, though I suppose he did have somewhere to direct his anger here, that being towards Eggman, just like in how in Bowser's fury, he chases mario and aimed the giant fire blasts directly at mario, And was able to concentrate solely on mario during the boss fights, so while Fury bowser is mostly out of control, he seems to have at least some control when there's a clear target for his rage
good video! i've always been a supporter of the idea that characters like infinite, sage (when piloting supreme), and super neo metal should be stronger than solaris with accurate scaling, so it's nice to see that acknowledged for once. having multiple super sonic-tier creations on eggman's side made bowser's win hard to justify for me.
Of course...because thoroughly explaining how this fight could've gone another way after team Eggman clearly got wanked in many ways *totally* defines crying. Just another ignorant rage baiter you are.
@@Jason-k1n Just because for the most part I agree with this debunk doesn't mean that I'm "coping". I also don't think that the most obvious Gintama simp is in any position to talk about my pfp.
Bro what it's a video how is he crying dogs just explaining on how he thinks eggman would have won this fight can a man not have opinion on something without it being classified as crying 😕
1. i think one line that says something is stronger than everything else eggman has made shouldn't be taken as a serious statement, given how much it happens and how often it contradicts the actual power of his shit 2. bowser is paper bowser, so bowser has relativity to dimentio and super dimentio.
Bro i was having a comment war with a bowser meat rider and bro was talking about “the grand stars can counter the master emerald” and I was just dying laughing
Alright here are my points as a Mario fan and also a recent Sonic fan 1) the metal virus can be removed through the warp topaz and super forms, so I am certain magic would easily not only counter it but also give Bowser huge advantages against Eggman who’s research is always based on research and limits of things rather than with Bowser’s and Kamek’s magic which outright did not need any prep nor experimentation to reach it’s limits without back firing even while considering how easily Eggman’s most ambitious ideas can back fire if he is not careful 2) King Boo is a ghost who can not only create whole dimensions like infinte but also has a lot of the same powers without the worry of a physical body, meaning infinite couldn’t restrain and since he was using magic instead of an unstable energy filled jewel it meant that he didn’t need to worry about any limits it could have, like needing to constantly focus while using or any physical limits it might have when it comes to using it (it’s not exactly defined thanks to Forces terrible writing that almost made me think I didn’t like Sonic so it’s best just to go off of what is shown rather than what the media at the time said) 3) Kamek can disable abilities and summon almost anything (including more minions just like the other magikoopas) and even buff other minions, so considering all of that it is not that much of a stretch to say he could teleport something small into bowser’s grasp like he does in Mario party, and the chance time bit was just there as a cute nod like Metal saying I’ll crush you or Eggman saying he has come to make an announcement, rather than saying chance time is an ability he always has since all feel canon even if they aren’t 100% to how it would happen for real. 4) He doesn’t have Starline because Starline was barely considered a part of the Eggman empire and was quickly dumped due to not listening to orders, versus Infinite who was the opposite and a major part even if he wasn’t seen in future games just like the hard boiled heavies, who were most likely not included due to how they wanted to focus the battle, speaking of which 5) Heavy king being fought by super sonic doesn’t mean he is on the same scale as perfect chaos, Solaris etc. it was most likely why that battle happened the way it did, was because the emeralds might trigger certain responses in the phantom ruby, that would explain why Metal only gets the ruby if you get all the emeralds first before fighting him 6) Sonic getting stronger every second is a bit of stretch, because just because something is said doesn’t mean it confirms scaling or is a feat in itself unless it is shown through scalable means, that would also make heavy king severely weaker looking back considering classic super sonic easily beat him and Eggman at the same time, and also proves why every newer mech being stronger than the last is a weak argument considering he also considers the slot machine that hurts himself is greatest creation in shadow the hedgehog 7) it is really dumb your last point considering you said it was just them being sappy, when most of bowser’s army is based around working as a team to become stronger, Kamek buffs allies, the elite trio and other minion teams will revive each other to keep the fight going through 1-ups and more minion back up, they can cover their own weaknesses more than Eggman’s army, and they can even formulate a lot more strategies on the fly a majority of badniks and even some of Eggman’s generals couldn’t do as much when the battle got hectic, which ensure that their would be more surviving troops on Bowser’s side near the end which is where both armies would need the leg up the most since both have debating attacks that could easily wipe out a lot members of both sides when they hit. 8) the chaos emeralds may have unlimited energy, but it doesn’t mean that you can instantly do anything with, unless you have a super form or the right machine (something even Eggman struggles to figure out) plus you can argue unlimited energy just refers to the as a power source/enabler rather than what they can do especially since even with them Super Sonic still has to put a lot of effort in order to win his fights so why doesn’t he just use the unlimited power to rewrite the universe to not have that foe which is something both the wonder flower, the dream stone, and debatably the power stars can do, something’s bowser can utilize more easily thanks to his magic while Eggman often has to build around using stuff like the emeralds which limit them.
Also they made the chaos emeralds have less power then it has (the chaos emeralds can let the user wish for one thing as well as the master emerald which they didn't use for some reason)
I personally believed that Metal Sonic could’ve helped Eggman win by copying Bowser’s bio data, and finding a way to get Kamek out of the picture early.
What made me furious is their explaination for Sage's weakness. They said Sonic proved Sage's caucalation wrong, But it's actually the amount that Bowser brought that overwhelmed Sage's caucalations. Not only is it meaningless but also controversial for Sonic fans hear such a thing from the makers that didn't properly explain and let others to fill the hole.
Y'know, I feel like they glossed over a lotta bowser stuff too. Why? Runtime and budget! Seriously, though. You can't expect everything to appear in the fight or even the analysis. To bring up a couple bowser things though, lets start with king boo. He has the paintings of course, which have an insane size (could fit a giant building in LM3), gravitational pull, and seemingly provide a sort of stasis, possibly preventing some escape methods. Then theres the spirit orbs, which can either possess things, or make them disappear. He can spawn these (and boos that are taught this technique can spawn them too!) quite quickly, and has no implied limit. Then theres the pixelator feat, which would give bowsers side another way to deal with the displacement trap (he reconstructed luigi from being "pixelated", which apparently works on a molecular level). Then theres the arguments for bowsers immeasurable speed. He fight culex, for one. who says he operates on a diet of time and "YOU!". admittedly, im not sure if this is consistent with final fantasy bosses of the time, so dont take my word for it. Then theres the chaos heart (blah blah blah mario cosmology blah blah blah) he could blah blah blah dodge dimentios attacks. You can tell im not a fan of dimension scaling. Anyways, I dont wanna be mean, but I dont really buy any base sonic immeasurable stuff, or infinite scaling to solaris. Most of the base immeasurable stuff comes from statements that lack context, like the "speeding through time and space" line. From what ive seen in generations, hes going through levels (arriving at them in a non-immeasurable way), and him using his speed in those levels is restoring them for some reason. Video game plots, folks. Still no immeasurable implications though. Then the infinite statement... if sonic gets stronger every second, classic sonic should be below modern. Yeah, classic fought time eater, but everything considered, he should be putting in much, much less work than Mr. modern. Any statement by eggman (including the phantom ruby being stronger than the master emerald or whatever) gets immediately invalidated by the egg dealer. you cannot convince me the egg dealer was his greatest machine at that time. Infinite also had a different ruby than the heavy king! context matters! anyways, those are mostly the only problems I have.
Any chance you had of appearing unbiased went out the window the moment you wrote off all the Mario games as 'mid'. I love both the classic Mario AND Sonic games and that was just petty of you.
Even if Death Battle wanted to go the route of the modified Phantom Ruby taking time to charge to actually be utilised… they literally brought up the Time Stones, just have Eggman accelerate the time it takes to gather that energy, boom! Issue solved! Plus claiming that Bowser’s minions would resists memory manipulation from the Egg Field or Lightman due to resisting Fawful’s brainwashing is just really, really dumb. Not only do they bypass the innate resistances some of the cast have to the likes of Ifrit and Dark Gaia, but they ALSO were going to overcome the resistance a single Chaos Emerald gave against memory manipulation! Bowser, nor his army have anything to resist memory manipulation like that.
And they REALLY underrated Sage here. They said her simulations wouldn’t be reliable as she was unable to predict many of the things Sonic did during the events of Frontiers, but SEVERAL TIMES throughout the Japanese dialogue of the game, we are told Sonic is defying fate and causality in doing all of these things! No fucking shit Sage couldn’t predict that! This would NOT apply for Bowser or his army. And they also didn’t bring up Cyberspace all that much despite how big of an advantage it is. Not only does being trapped in there take a snapshot of all your memories and add it to realm, free for Sage’s simulations as she has full control over Cyberspace post Frontiers thanks to The End no longer interfering, but being trapped, and assuming you somehow get out, would leave you digitised, you’d start losing memories, your emotions would start being messed with, but most importantly, it straight up locks you out of using certain moves and abilities, prime example being Amy not being able to use her Pico Pico Hammer.
@ not the point I was making, both have type 1 acausality through all their wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey rubbish, both can time travel freely, Bowser naturally, while Eggman has several options for it, with Time Eater rendering it void. The point I was making, was that Eggman can literally accelerate the rate at which the Ruby charges, the Time Stones aren’t generic time travelling gems, they have control over time period.
@@mugenkage4965 based doctor who reference Pretty sure one of the alternative scenarios shows that they think castle Bowser would still be able to handle so even if he had it it wouldn't be of much use Which you know is debatable but it's not like they don't bring it up
@ much appreciated! Wonder Bowser is a VERY big win con for him, I will admit, but that’s only if he’s had time to charge the form. The main win con he gets is layered transmutation, which Eggman, nor any of his army have a resistance to, but fortunately for the Doc, it’s AOE to start out with is… kinda pitiful, it would only have reached universal levels of range had Bowser fully charged it without being interrupted, and with Eggman not needing to even be on the field at all to activate his win con of memory manipulation, it’s kind of a big deal (also to add on to this, this is under the assumption that it would even be Wonder Bowser going up against Lightman in the first place, which is giving a TON of leeway to Bowser, almost to a point where it seems he has pre fight knowledge of Eggman).
About king boo: The reason why it wouldn't work because the phantom ruby very specifically targets the perception of someone. Causing it to fuck with one's mind and think it's real when it really isn't. This is even the case for his gravity manipulation. But even if we give him the gravity manipulation, the issue here is that it wouldn't effect king boo. He's a ghost that doesn't fall under the laws of gravity. It’s stated multiple times in Sonic forces how the Ruby targets your brain Plus the second the phantom ruby activates, King boo is gonna EXACTLY know how it works as it works very similar if not exactly like his magic.
To clarify!
When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro.
Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation.
What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
The reason alternate scenarios weren't used in fights was due to budget
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself.
Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation.
But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
@@theguywhoasked2597 he just said that tho😭 he knows why it wasn’t included
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
Only reason metal sonic died is because he got scoliosis from carrying the team on his back😭🙏🏾
ON GAIA
Meh Metal sonic was irrelevant
FR 😭
242nd like
My boy rage used to be believable
Metal died cause he decided to NEARLY KILL Bowser’s LITERAL CHILD which pissed him off immensely.
Wait a fucking minute, Egg Man's goal is to build a theme park 💀💀
Um yeah? Been a thing since the classic games
I mean that and world domination (colors and forces)
In Sonic Chaos, he wanted to use the Chaos Emeralds to build Nuclear weapons
so he could build a theme park
@@TheEternalFlame57 I mean sonic colors exist
He built it in Unleashed
Regardless of the outcome, the fight animation was peak fiction
Indeed, Love that episode
Metal was the MVP, sad that he went out the way he did
But the egg salamander and wizard was piloted by Eggman and Eggman nega
Facts
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
Before anything is said
Bowser's "Showtime" went hard af
That was an epic clutch moment
@@no9ah103 bowsers showtime went wayyy harder than anything the entire eggman empire did the whole fight, ima be fr
“Mario fans, ur games are mid”
I ain’t a Mario fan but you’re clearly salty as a pretzel 😭
Yeah calling Mario games mid as a Sonic fan is... a bold move. Remember who you were in the 2010s
I once threw my chair on a guy that nade fun of me for liking Sonic back in school...I was like 9 years old don't judge me
@@KiiBon Bro was so salty, that's how sonic fan nerds are!
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
@@KiiBon and the 2000s
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both
"You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon
"They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? About as against him as the deadly six
"There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it
The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly.
"Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk
For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge.
Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered.
As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad.
"Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst
That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past
There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence
Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
@Skynetbear I always saw the fight as "toned down plot armor (sonic universe) vs toned down toon force (Mario universe)"
Super Sonic has infinite energy. It just doesn't USE infinite energy. Input vs output
virginite: IM STRONG, IM STRONG, IM STRONG!!!!!
Chad Twomp: UUUUHHH!!!!
@@thefakeparadox-2376
Virginite: IM NOT WEAK… IM NOT WEA-
*_URGHHH_* 💯💯🔥🔥🗣️🗣️
"I AM NOT WEAK! I AM NOT WEAAAKKK!!!"
the thwomp in the background:
King Boo: 😂🗿
Moral of the story...
Metal Sonic carried the entire match.
He's the coldest fictional character of course he did
He died from the back pain
@@Flame-i5gno budget cuts.
Benefit of being the single strongest autonomous mech the good doctor has put together.
His one downfall was messing with the King of the Koopa’s child..and of course also his
***D A R R R K M A G I C.***
The fact that death battle made not only sonic fans, but dragon ball fans salty almost back to back is really funny.
can’t wait for Goku vs Sonic
@@liljuddzseems like theyl be pretty close unsure who would win, dont know if they will count forms like hyper or not
@@liljuddzMore like ‘remake of Shadow vs. Vegeta’ when!?
@@DeathBattleFan-wi4cc pretty sure they pissed off the jojo fans as well
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
Sonic fans when they watch the coolest thing in the world, but their character dies:😭
EXACTLY
LMAO TRUE
Nerd ahh dude
For real tho
🫵🤡🌽⚽️
“For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway”
I knew you were coping from the very start, but you didn’t have to make it obvious..
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969honestly it's hard to give people your opinion because they're always going to this shitty
Eh, oh well
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
The fact that Eggman can’t build a dаmn theme park even after threatening the destruction of infinite timelines proofs that bureaucracy is outversal+
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
@@RichieGonzo ☝️🤓
This you?
Wich means he didnt even cared abt the explanation because they said it and he was prob destroying his TV out of rage
@@Unremarkable6969 Prove me wrong bro
@@RichieGonzo he literally addressed the alternate outcomes in the video and you have the audacity to say "watched one minute before clicking off"
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses?
If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping.
Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
I find it funny that since a twomp took out infinite, that means it would be able to beat any sonic boss prior to him💀
funny enough that twomp was boosted by infinite's power, its a self takedown i think.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
Still funny that the strongest sonic villain took himself out due to sheer stupidity, like there was other stuff the phantom ruby could do💀
@@Kirb_The_MenaceFeels pretty accurate to how much of a fraud Infinite showed himself to be in Sonic Forces to me.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders.
They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
Let's make this interesting...
I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished.
"why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario"
Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in.
"They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs"
Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs"
"Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built"
Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match.
As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match.
"They don't use the hard-boiled heavies"
I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1.
As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King)
"Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed"
True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis.
Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit).
"The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real"
...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better.
"Infinite downplay"
Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea).
*However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget).
"Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?"
Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.)
Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items.
"Solaris downplay"
...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally.
"Where's Starline?"
One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in.
"The best for Bowser is inaccessible."
Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so.
"5D scaling"
Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit
"Spatial displacement trap"
Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good.
Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought.
"The metal virus"
Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few*
1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects)
2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol)
3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game).
"The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby"
No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek)
"The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)"
The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win.
"The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.)
Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has.
"Loyalty doesn't matter"
Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one.
"Eggman's ambitions aren't as high"
Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Interesting. I'll bite.
@@Unremarkable6969Alrighty, I'm pretty sure I've responded to everything.
Damn that’s a concise list.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
That death battle was peak Cimena tbh i don't care who won i need Moro to be in death battle a bit more
Moro VS Galactus?
@@Unremarkable6969 i mean the animater moro_production not the uh dragon ball character
@@Unremarkable6969 I think he means the animator, who did this Death Battle.
@@HarbingerYT I am slow 😓
Moro vs Darth Nihlus (Dragon Ball VS Star Wars) Goes hard.
Nihlus destroys btw.
@@Unremarkable6969
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section.
Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Fair enough, a lot of Power Scaling is up to personal interpretation, because Nintendo isn't making things any easier 😒
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research
Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
@@jaybonewilks2747 it 100% is it depends on interpretation of statements, what you deem consistent and other factors
@@jaybonewilks2747You have to have a massive ego to claim that your views on a matchup is objective
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
I still can't forgive them for Ben 10 vs Green Lantern to this day, but the animation was top tier
ngl.
Fair and I agree. Green Lantern could win but the way he did win was pure 🐃💩
@@DJBurns-jq8mn I want aliens that could do something with hals light construct several ones they named but didn't even put in the video.
@@DromusTH we all did
why are people so pressed over his opinion about Mario games being mid? but Mario fans can say that sonic games are mid and get praised? just asking
I know bro, Mario fans can't take what they dish
I mean, Mario fans can actually say it with high ground of being right. Even most Sonic fans would agree even if reluctantly that the 2010’s were no easy time for Sonic while the "lows" of Mario games are not that bad. It’s like an American saying the US has better gastronomy than France. It’s straight up wrong.
Because it shows he biased. He is only scaling Eggman but NOT BOWSER. If you're going to scale in a vs battle, scale both characters instead of just one
remember when coney said he didn’t like sonic games
You can’t call Mario games mid when you’re a Sonic fan. Pot calling kettle black etc etc 😂
Bro was basically and bro crying way to much like damn the sonic Fandom can't fucking accept logic that the mario verse simply is just to powerful for the sonic universe to take on
@@nintendogamerkid350Why you letting one guy determine how an entire fandom feels?
@@nintendogamerkid350dawg u can’t be serious with a name like that
@hiddenflare6169 I'm apart of the sonic and mario fan- actually nevermind I'm never joining the sonic Fandom not after the art that is in both for the characters.
@hiddenflare6169 also it's not one person it's multiple people because everytime I go into any comment section for any mario character beating a sonic character then the sonic fans cry and complain and start saying everything in the book about how they should have won without looking into the facts for the mario characters.
“Enjoy your win, Mario fans. Your games are mid anyway”
Aaaand there it is 😭
Sonic fans are NEVER beating the salt allegations
Mario games are boring man, they put me to sleep, make me wanna 😴
Can't we just enjoy both? I'm a Sonic fan, yet I don't mind a little Mario Game once in a while
@@Unremarkable6969 And Sonic games only get one good game every 5 releases. And even those are usually jank fest or remakes.
@@maxentirunos fr bruh
@@maxentirunosmad that shadow generations was good
That fight went so stupidly hard that I don’t even care about the victor 😭
The hype of the fight got me invested and then Eggman lost and I had a moment
Moro carried the episode on his shoulders
@@Unremarkable6969If It helps:
Morø Said in his twitter that he was rooting for Eggman.
@alexbaribeault
Fr tho.
His back must be in worse shape than Metal's with the godlike carry that was the animation.
They way hes talking the Mario games down just shows he is not someone to debate and is just salty over a video outcome.
Mario games are BORING man
@@Unremarkable6969 sonic boom, sonic 06, sonic forces. Are you stupid or dumb
@Unremarkable6969 Alright ur opinion but ey sonic aint better. And saying smthg like that in a "debunk" just shows off really bad.
@@Unremarkable6969just like your channel
@@jovia6462 ok then dont watch it (also can people not dislike a franchise????)
To quote the true victor of this battle: "Shut up, nerd!"
Damn...
Can't really argue with that
@@Unremarkable6969 I agree with your arguments but theirs no comeback to that.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort.
Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well.
At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain
Fuck Forces though
FUCK Sonic Forces, all my homies HATE Sonic Forces
@@Unremarkable6969
Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme
He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces.
Thwomp'd
@@Unremarkable6969 I actually love the game, it just could have been better
@@Unremarkable6969Sonic Forces is worse than a bad game like Sonic 06 or Sonic Boom to me because it doesn’t even try anything. It has no soul.
why is everyone hating on forces, I loved that game, it was short but sweet. Also, all the infinite lore was pretty hype.
Ngl, I think this would happen if Eggman underestimated Bowser and just went in thinking this was gonna be easy.
The fight is summarized in "eggman doesn't hit any punches"
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
"Ur games are mid" Death Battle did yall so dirty, the crying is insane 😭😭😭
Mario games put me to sleep man
@Unremarkable6969 I wish I could say the same about Sonic games, but I fell asleep whilst waiting for the levels to load 😴
That's what happens when you play Shit Station
@Unremarkable6969 I'm on Xbox
My man 🤝
I dont think death battle has ever used immeasurable speed or like 5d AP. They just get the numbers REALLY REALLY high.
Also i had no idea eggmans MAIN goal is to make a theme park. Whyd he nuke the moon then😭😭😭
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
@@abyss-aster8748 Moro did his best with what he had, but whoever did the storyboarding had a clear bias either for Mario or against Eggman
@@epiccarrot88 true
Ok just pointing something out here.
The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
no they have infinite power
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
@@kanewilson8624That’s not how time dilation works 😂
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we:
Bowser team:
-Himself
-Bowser Jr
-Kamek
-King Boo
-Filler troops
Eggman team:
-Death Egg Robot
-Death Egg
-Egg Dragoon
-Sage
-Metal Sonic
-Infinite
-Filler troops
So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair.
Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
Then give Bowser more 🗿
15:10
You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
W
And you can debunk that argument by saying sage didn’t have any data against the koopa clan to form a efficient battle plan to begin with
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
In an alternate timeline eggman wins and you make a video debunking it saying bowser should have won.
That's trippy to think about.
Anti-Unremarkable
@@Unremarkable6969Remarkable9696*
@@Unremarkable6969”liquid unremarkable”
Average Undertale AU be like.
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began
"this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2"
he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines
SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
Fr like didn’t he make small planets in sonic colors
Anyway
Bowser protecting his army and his son was the coolest thing about this battle
Metal transforming into Neo was cool too. And the death egg appearance. And the part where Neo went super (he should have ended that fight).
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
@ so true
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Animation is expensive
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand).
Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
They included an alternative scenario that showed bowser countering it with his worn transmutation magic
Exactly. Animation is just a visual treat. It isn’t meant to represent the whole debate objectively.
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies.
he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
I think my biggest gripe is how they try to hand wave Time Eater by saying bowser could just wish everything back to normal or out of existence.
1) TE scales WAY above the Dream Stone, there's nothing to suggest Bowser could just wish people away or he would have done it a long time ago
and 2) Time Eater does far more than just eat time. It completely displaces it. It could easily just bring every major sonic villain back at full power and multiple eggmans and there's just nothing he could do at that point. It is literally the ultimate Trump card without Sonic or Shadow around. He's not killing it, he's not wishing it away, and it's by far the most broken thing to have on your team.
Except Bowser literally says on screen IN THE GAME, that the Dream Stone gives him the power to wish away anything. DB shows it on the screen so you know what they're referring to, lol. That's the whole reason Bowser wanted the Dream Stone.
@MindForgedManacle and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement? He's not eggman, he didn't sit there and study the thing to learn about it.
If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost. But he did, so it's clearly not anywhere near as powerful as it's stated to be in game. It has no feats to back itself up.
Time Eater on the other hand has the entirety of generations as his feat. You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist.
@KotalaGod he was literally going to wish mario and Luigi out of existence in the game itself, and probably did that because of how many times he's been betrayed or had things go wrong for him, he was only stopped because peach and starlow pulled a power out of nowhere in order to stop him,
Once he absorbed the dream stone however, the rules changed, with the dream stone now a part of bowser, he didn't have to worry about his new power being taken from him any more, meaning he felt he could take the time to defeat the bros properly and have the satisfaction of beating them himself,
And by the same logic you're using to debunk dreamy bowser, the time Eater could have just come back and finished sonic off at any time in sonic generations and should of just trapped him in white space like it did to his friends, but it didn't,
@@KotalaGod "and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just
some exaggerated statement?"
Because everywhere throughout the game that is directly confirmed. Antasma says it (and he's working with Bowser), Dreambert says it, Eldream says it. It's not just Bowser, don't be absurd. they all say the same thing: It can grant any wish.
"If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost"
You know you can just look at the game and see how they actually avoided that: Peach and Starlow attack Bowser before he could use the Dream Stone. It's not that it didn't work, he says "Dream Stone! Disappear 'em" and then he's attacked. He only every inhales the fragments, and never uses the wish granting power in the Dreamy Form.
"You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist."
You realize that the Dream Stone can make something not exist, right? That's what Bowser was trying to do when peach and Starlow destroyed it from behind him.
@@MindForgedManacle Ah yes existence erasure... because that's worked on sonic characters before
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight
Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Fodder compared to what Bowser did at base
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
They didnt used archie, they used idw
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
@@LegoWhisbecauseyesUhhhh, actual feats to prove your statement?
Thank you for salt. I needed them for my fries
I know a RWBY pfp ain't talking
@@Unremarkable6969I know the one with the shadow pfp ain't talking
Damn 😒
@@Harold-gl1ngdamn, beat me to the comeback.
@@Harold-gl1ng Shadow the hedgehog is cool asf tho. what's ur point?
man, they turned metal sonic into the egg carrier in this fight fr
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
A respectable opinion
Granted the Tails' are saying in both Generations and the remaster that Sonic' SPEED is what's restoring Space-Time, so there's that.
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
I think he is immeasurable due to......
Me being a sonic glazer
Honestly death battle seems to often want to downplay sonic
Yeah that's just a given. Game Sonic characters especially have it the worst, Archie Sonic characters have it a bit better but it's still not great, like at all
It's because their bias about Sonic or any character from the franchise winning
@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday You are aware they are massive Sonic fans, yes?
No, Sonic dweebs just tend to wank their characters and always get mad when they get a reality check.
@@someguy9970cry some more death battle dick rides mario
aint no way a sonic fan is telling mario fans that their games are mid 💀
Mario games are boring.
@@Unremarkable6969 paper mario clears all sonic games
@@cheemsburger3184 bro even sticker star clears half the sonicc franchise
@@Unremarkable6969 Boooooooo!! Your mom! Boooooooo!! You're mid! Boooooooo!! You're comeback is terrible! Booooooooo!! Go cry over your mom's ashes! Boooooooooo!! You Sonic man child! Boooooooooo!!
@@shrek-itgamer6214okay that was childish
Thwomp> I’m not weak I’m not weak I’m not weak!!!
This is more "How come Eggman didn't get THIS weapon" than debunking
infinite: this is power without peer. it is the ultimate strength.
thwomp: shut up nerd!
Bro here I am thinking, why didn’t they just make this fight a tie? Both are proven to have feats that are almost equal to one another. Couldn’t they have just set this up for a sequel between their troops with the aftermath being both Eggman and Bowsers death?
Because making it a tie is boring and defeats the point of having a DB. It can be funny like one. They've already done it before. This was a perfectly fine setup and had a conclusion that made sense.
@@MindForgedManacle Fair enough. I just miss those sort of battles that end up in the destruction of both sides. It could've set up into a battle where after the two mains are down, The minions and sidekicks pick up where they left off.
My personal opinion which could be wrong.
I thought that both would probably die and then in the future could arise something like "sage and the titans vs bowser jr and his brothers" something like that that could have some normal ending
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
Metal Sonic was actually locked in that entire fight. Eggman kinda just watched for the most part.
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser.
It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side:
Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper.
The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common.
Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with.
I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Reality warping > illusions,
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
@@hyperfairy7779They are not only illusions???? Like, you take death battle to face value?
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
Regardless, fight animation was top tier
I sided with Bowser at the beginning, but even after he won I still felt that Eggman and his team were limited on what they can do. Not to mention the song lyrics and cover immediately made people realize that Bowser was going to win at the end
How were they limited? They had the Phantom Ruby and all the Emeralds from the jump.
If they got any more than that, then they'd be limiting Bowser since he wasn't given any reality warping items he's had.
@@MindForgedManacle The Phantom Ruby prototypes, the Sonic Shuffle items if we're going by DB logic, the Power of the Stars, and the list likely includes more.
@@riomo4076 You have to be specific. They explained why they didn't give Eggman the prototypes (they're hard countered by the Wonder Flower, which is a universal reality warper).
What Sonic Shuffle item? Chance Time is literally just Kamek using his teleportation power, it's not a board game mechanic thing.
Again, they had the ruby and all the Emeralds from the start. Bowser had, what, 1 Grand Star? Come on dude, limited my foot.
@@MindForgedManacleThey also argued that the Phantom Ruby only warps perception, When its got more than that (teleportation and warping). The fake ruby at the end of Forces alone created a literal sun, as well as warping character to a different realm. Also they wouldve given Bowser more of the stars since they mentioned multiple existing while unfortunately only the emeralds are limited to just seven. I also feel like they kinda downplayed Eggman but I still agree with Bowser winning
@@Linear_Line_423 They downplayed Eggman but still Time Eater just counters many things since:
-Its a primordial entity which exists in nothingness which makes it immune to any means of Magic
-Put the Chaos Emeralds in a limbo in Gens meaning it could do the same for The Stars
-Took Super Forms to harm it but still was able to harm said Super Forms
-Is able to bring back past Villains and potentially pit Bowser against em
-Brought back Mephiles
or if we bring back The Time Stones which Eggman could also have...meaning he is far superior with Time Hax. He could also have The Egg Wizard which would also mean an instant win. If you don't know the Egg Wizard search it up. Its basically what Dreamy Bowser is supposed to be. Also, Nightmare Eggman kinda has no counter
Sonic fans are an infinite source of salt lol
Ah, I see what you did there
True
And some how are below warthunder players that leak military data when they are mad when a tank or plane is not 1 to 1 of the real thing
If you don't want anyone saying bad things about your debunk, do actual research on both sides?That's all my advice i have to say
I strive for and love comments critiquing my video. It holds me to a standard.
17 minutes to tell us "I'm salty, I didn't read the black boxes, and it is possible to wank Eggman while using anti-feats for Bowser."
That certainly was the debunk video of all time.
I did read the black boxes tho 🧐
Hello. Mario fan here. I agree with you on this video. I don't think that Bowser should have won.
And they didn't give him Cyber Bots from Frontiers and Supreme Titan. Don't argue about Supreme because Sage was riding it.
Not eggman creation
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
@@wyllgalaxy1009yea but sage still can use it, its apart of sages arsenal
@@hiddenflare6169eggman doesnt own the chaos emeralds but they still used it, if they can use it and it can be done then they can use it
@@hiddenflare6169thats like saying sonic cant turn super in a battle bc he doesnt own the emeralds
They did in fact mention the egg salamander and the fact that the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds are universal threat
Yes I understand they didn’t say it directly but we can’t expect LITERALLY EVERYTHING they’ve ever done to be said in words or be featured in the animation
Sometimes we just have to let the black boxes and arsenal screens speak for themselves
Also a personal nit pick. Your comment of “proceeds to not use this in the fight” goes both ways because you know who else wasn’t in the fight? The Koopalings
That was an epic edit of Infinite though so props on that
Sonic fan really said mario games are mid 😂
people really have diff opinions
how deluded
To quote a famous person
“The person who would win in a fight is the person the script writers want to win, these are fictional characters so stop asking these boneheaded questions.”
Don't forget that the black shield in Cannon is supposed to be "an impenetrable shield" that metal Sonic can use
Indeed, though calling it impenetrable and expecting that t to apply no matter what could be a no limits fallacy, it's probably not nullifying attacks from the likes of beruss and thanos,
That said, I don't think DB bothered to try and calc it's durability either
*grand stars.
Yes the wonder flower and grand star can counter the phantom ruby and chaos emeralds. A grand star collapsed and nearly destroy marios universe and required rosalina to re set it back to before the festival. The wonder flower can effect time by slowing it down or speeding it up, also it was able to turn a entire kingdom into bowser territory quickly.
Also wanna say something. You can very easily scale bowser to 5D. This isn't even wank. If i wanted to wank bowser. The dream stone makes him infinite Dimensional and High outer.
In Mario galaxy, their is a location called the Matter Splatter Galaxy. Wich is very very explicity a 4th dimensional space. Both via the kanji. As well as how the space operates. So given how our universe opperates with 4 dimensions, 3 physical contained by the 4th dimension of time. The mario universe must be similar. With 5 dimensions in the universe, 4 Observable. And the 5th being more abstract caging in the other 4. And bowsers galaxy generator. Not just the black hole at the end of the game. Is stated to be able to destroy this universe easily.
He isn't outer he isn't touching Scarlet King not in a million years. Let alone Error 404 as much as I hate 404 he's not doing anything to them.
@@XenoSonicFan I'm not the inventor of the scaling chain. From what I looked into. Its due to both string theory being present in Mario cosmology. And the dream stone being infinite Dimensional. Both Mario and bowser survived things that would have destroyed the entire Mario cosmology. So yeahm pretty simple.
Alphatale has string theory, in order for it to work properly it must feature a Higgs Particle. And the concept of Alternate Universes. Realistically Mario doesn't have anything with String Theory Dreamy Bowser actual has more anti feats then feats. There's proof for this when Dreamy Bowser got stomped by the base form of the brothers. Even then that makes no sense, unless base Mario is Outerversal, than that means Kirby is Boundless which he obviously isn't. As a fan of Kirby that's just wank.
With some relatively believable wank you can get the Mario verse at 11D via the reference to Spring Theory.
@XenoSonicFan I honestly don't care about whether he beats alphatale. All I wanted to do was showcase that bowser is definitely not only 4D
Sonic fans when they watch the most PEAK fight ever, but a sonic character dies/loses (it’s the worst thing they ever saw now) 😔
The fight animation was peak, I will give them that
Nah... I'm an huge Sonic fan (Mario's player too). I really found the animation, the battle, the music etc... pretty nice, I loved it. But the analisis it's a bit unfair and out of place, probably in a video that only proposes the fight this wouldn't be a problem, but since they tries to explain on dettails WHY one character beats another one it's obvious that people will argument about it.
And the problem is they don't accept these outcomes!
Wait... Since when is Bowser able to control Fury Bowser? I thought the ink was controlling hi
No clue but he's just anger
He doesn't exactly control it exactly
bowser jr dropped the paint...
@@ImperatoChri
I know, I don't say he can't access it with Jr's help.
What I'm talking about is that I thought Bowser couldn't control himself as Fury Bowser, not that he couldn't become Fury Bowser
Its already in de name fury bowser he was just mad af
He had someone to direct his anger to?
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine.
But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
She could've used a robot to his side but they did not do that
@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsdaywhat’s stopping bowser from just turning said robot army into stone
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
No matter how powerful Bowser is with feats,magic,scaling,durability....I'll still always love Eggman no matter what. Since childhood he was my favorite villain & I'm not only like Eggman than other character in Sonic universe.
He always makes me smile whenever he appears & he never goes away.
Bowser couldn't win without Jr. Or changing time either. Bowser literally died twice,once by Neo Metal Sonic & again by the Death Egg Laser Blast.
If Sage in the future obtains magical abilities,somehow bringing Eggman back to life & call it the Egg-shell skeleton or counter Jr.s wand with (Egg-Wand or something) he could turn Bowser,Jr & his army into scrap metal.
I love Eggman no matter what & death battle isn't the end & be all or cannon. As Canonicaly Eggman & Bowser are friends & took the London signts together.
GG the Eggman Empire-
Yes, but you could also say that without metal Sonic Eggman would have lost much earlier.
And he didn't die twice. The first time was only a "knockout" and the second time... is it really a death
when you become Dry Bowser? I'm not sure about that😅
@Nunchchucks Not true.
Neo Metal Sonic went right through his body & Bowser was down. Jr had to revive him. & that blast from the laser ripped right through the fury form into the bones.
The whole "knockout" may not even be reliable anyway since all we know is Eggman has multiple decoys and just left entirely.
It's pointless to discuss this as what's done is done & I could care less.
As for the skeleton thing, hence why I mentioned there should now be a "Egg skeleton" version of Eggman & Egg wand to counter Kamek & Jr
Sega has already made Eggman turn super,used a nightmare version of him,may as well make a third form where he's a cartoony skeleton body of him but still has his mustache. It could very well happen.
Metal Sonic definitely did carry the fight & made the fight last longer, but the point still stands. If Metal wasn't added, then they would have just had Sage bring out all the titans.
That's all I'm saying & I'm not going to get into it.
Its funny how sonic fans are coming up with the most random scenarios to make their characters win
@@PokyDaBesto what random cenarios tho? I see valid ones, some more wow then others but still valid, cant people question the results just because the animation was peak?
@@Kurouso2099 look at the third pharagraph of the comment (cant really tell if its serious or if its a joke) and yea the animation in this db is absolute peak, my favourite one so far
Death Battle just loves to downplay Sonic Characters
Fr, first in DK vs knuckles, they didn't even allow knuckles to use his super form (even though that was clearly his trump card)
In sonic vs mario, they claim sonic is only hypersonic
What's next Wario can beat Shadow the hedgehog?? 💀
They either heavily nerf a character or just straight up gaslight you when it comes to their feats
Tbf, DK and Knuckles didn’t get super forms because like in the first MvS vid, they said their power up’s and transformations counter each other
And just like Luigi Vs Tails. Both fights only gave them items that was unique to them
As for Sonic Not being faster than light.. yeah that was bad research back then. But at least they believe it now
Bro has lost the plot if he’s saying Mario games are mid
no way
he has an diff opinion damn
bro is so lost
Mario games are boring, to me anyway. Galaxy is a lot of fun, 64 holds up today and paved the way for 3D gaming, but the series as a whole just doesn't do it for me.
@@Iaintgivingumahemail This 'opinion' displays a clear bias for the losing side, and makes almost all of his claims dismissable as bias.
In other words, not a great look for an analytical debunking.
@@channelofnincha6139 jus say
"i want to cope and use someones own opinion to discredit a fucking debunk on something" two diff things btw
Infinite dying was honestly literally insanely absurd 😭
Honestly for powers saying that eggman needed to swap in between suits, I believe that he could pull an iron man with sage and have her pilot it (I mean he says she can in frontiers and there’s no reason to think she can’t do it herself) so even then it’s a draw as they can use the powers to their full capacity
Hmmmmmm 🤔
Didn't think of that
Besides Sage kinda intangible so she might not get hit or something
If mine memoey is corect in sonic 3 he put some egg robot's to control sone od his old boss robot's so I gess he could just put one of them to control the robot's
See, he says that, but we never SEE it happen. So it's a lot like this death battle.
In THEORY, it could happen, but we haven't had it confirmed.
@@colvamoon6962ik but with her aiding Sonic and even piloting a titan to help Sonic it’s not out of possibility for her to pilot any of the more higher end robots, like the one in rush
Even as a big Sonic fan, I can say with full confidence that bowser wins this fight.
Some Sonic fans just can’t accept the fact that their favorite character lost.
Favorite? Bro.. i think you aren't a fan. You just agree with death battle even without going for your own research. Scalers are smart, death battle are half smart.
Doubt lad
I seen Eggman do things that seem more impressive
At least give some evidence
Because people whined Mario couldn't win
And even better when Elden Ring wins rewards there are Nintendo fans crying that Nintendo lost
So let's be honest
It can be the same here
Okay. Thats not a refute IoI eggman wins as the ppI who actually made arguments have proven. Next.
@@SansINess53Power scalers need to pick up a dictionary and look at the word “subjectivity”. All power scaling is subjective, and just because Death Battle has a different interpretation doesn’t mean it’s incorrect
@thestormthatisapproaching6705 yeah but at the same time, they've certainly shown bias. So I don't think death battle is really reliable. You should go scale on your own with math or take the most sensible ones.
Also you know robotnick has a good counter for the boos considering in sandopolis its shown that the animal capsules can trap ghost
16:34 Wow, that's the Hottest Take I've ever heard
Galaxy and Odyssey are Peak IMO
He would never understand
@@wongdang2💀💀💀💀
@@wongdang2 He legit said that galaxy is fun tho?
I knew eggman would lose but honestly i dont care, The fight was awesome.
If only Mario vs Sonic 2 was this good....🤦♂️
I think I saw some people commenting on the Death Battle video itself saying that this was a make-up for Mario vs. Sonic 2. Was the fight itself really that bad, or was it to do with the research, or the animation?
@@Doomblade3890 The fight was genuinely bad. Animation was good, but research was pretty meh and they rigged the fight to work in Mario's favor. The beginning was pretty okay but it gets worse once they start downplaying Sonic.
There's one thing that annoys me is that Bowser was given his Fury form; a form that Bowser cannot control. How does he control it in this scenario???
Holy shit dude the bias is crazy, stop the cope there is no counter for being wished away besides Peach’s magic 😭
"Bias"
Okay 😒
U have a shadow pfp ur biased gang its ok@@Unremarkable6969
The chaos Emerald protects the user From getting erase
@@axillaryclinicalNo, I don’t think there’s an answer of that, because we never see the chaos emeralds done that in games?
@@Uesr2004D yes Time Eater affected by multiple timelines, The chaos emerald that has shown multiple times to protect the user From getting erase to being affected by magic, it will continue to make you stronger
solaris was erasing timelines and universes but could not effect supersonic Shadow and silver
So far the Sonic Series has gotten only 6 Victories and the victors were
(Amy Rose vs Ramona Flowers) Amy Rose
(Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver) Archie Silver
(Shadow vs Ryuko) Shadow
(Mario vs Sonic 2011) Sonic
(Luigi vs Tails) Tails
(Eggman vs Wily) Metal Sonic
Even though Xeno Trunks vs Archie Silver used the traditional Sprite animations, that song they had ("Hedge of Tomorrow") is hands down my all-time favorite Death Battle song. That goes SOOOOOOO freakin' hard, with or without the battle!
What about knuckles?
@@jeanette9760 He lost to Donkey Kong.
"So the winner is..."
"Metal Sonic?"
"Metal Sonic."
Still one of my favorite Death Battle moments
@@CalebWhite-l6n I really hope one day they remake that DB since it was back in the season one days where they didn't do as much in-depth analysis. Remaking it along with the modern day research and animation would be absolute peak.
Man, I am a Sonic fan and even I can see that you're so salty lmao. I do agree with them that Bowser likely wins in this scenario, I do in fact think they did a pretty good job, because this fight never was about physical stats, it was about who had the most haxiest abilities and armies (Yes this was confirmed to be an army fight before the episode even released so... Gotta Go Inform Yourself), since both could scale to basically the same amount of power and immesuarable speeds (no, I won't take your take of "Mario scaling only to 4D" as granted since they are ways to get him way above that). I disagree with your opinion, but I won't be an asshole bout it, after all, we all have different opinions on these kind of subjective debates don't we?
@@omegaaklx303 Dude ain't no way you type this Thinking that you're right
What kinda argument is this.
@@Yuh_zhimmy A simple argument: Bowser has better abilities, so he won.
dang this is some stupid shit coming from a 100% classified sonic fan
Not only are there ways to get Mario characters at 5D or more with generous scaling but using the same bad faith often used by Sonic fans would stop the Sonic verse at 4D too.
I'm just gonna say this, Death Battle gave Bowser his Fury form, I've played Bowser's Fury and I'm just gonna say. Fury Bowser is a liability to the Koopa Troops, Bowser cannot control it and has no sense of who he is when he is in that form
Potentially, though I suppose he did have somewhere to direct his anger here, that being towards Eggman, just like in how in Bowser's fury, he chases mario and aimed the giant fire blasts directly at mario,
And was able to concentrate solely on mario during the boss fights, so while Fury bowser is mostly out of control, he seems to have at least some control when there's a clear target for his rage
@@hyperfairy7779 especially when his son is involved
good video! i've always been a supporter of the idea that characters like infinite, sage (when piloting supreme), and super neo metal should be stronger than solaris with accurate scaling, so it's nice to see that acknowledged for once. having multiple super sonic-tier creations on eggman's side made bowser's win hard to justify for me.
1:43 Yeah, the reason why they didn't include all of them is because, as they stated, Eggman can't control every machine at once.
I knew it Sonic fans would debunk this video
Awww shoot I might sound like a Mario fanboy
Maybe Death Battle high balled Bowser into composite
@@noahalcantar2431 Well to find out that's why we double check work
@External_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday I can't tell if Bowser is high outerversal or Multiversal+
@@noahalcantar2431 They're both a soft composite actually, just ignoring Archie and Mario-Kun
It's kinda sad how the only way you can get views is by crying for 20 minutes
Of course...because thoroughly explaining how this fight could've gone another way after team Eggman clearly got wanked in many ways *totally* defines crying. Just another ignorant rage baiter you are.
@grimsharky3381 and you are just another blind sonic fan copping as hard as they can (you also have a roblox pfp so your opinion means nothing to me)
@@Jason-k1n Just because for the most part I agree with this debunk doesn't mean that I'm "coping". I also don't think that the most obvious Gintama simp is in any position to talk about my pfp.
Bro what it's a video how is he crying dogs just explaining on how he thinks eggman would have won this fight can a man not have opinion on something without it being classified as crying 😕
1. i think one line that says something is stronger than everything else eggman has made shouldn't be taken as a serious statement, given how much it happens and how often it contradicts the actual power of his shit
2. bowser is paper bowser, so bowser has relativity to dimentio and super dimentio.
Bro i was having a comment war with a bowser meat rider and bro was talking about “the grand stars can counter the master emerald” and I was just dying laughing
Man, can I just watch a hypothetical video on two fictional characters beating the shit out of eachother?
Alright here are my points as a Mario fan and also a recent Sonic fan
1) the metal virus can be removed through the warp topaz and super forms, so I am certain magic would easily not only counter it but also give Bowser huge advantages against Eggman who’s research is always based on research and limits of things rather than with Bowser’s and Kamek’s magic which outright did not need any prep nor experimentation to reach it’s limits without back firing even while considering how easily Eggman’s most ambitious ideas can back fire if he is not careful
2) King Boo is a ghost who can not only create whole dimensions like infinte but also has a lot of the same powers without the worry of a physical body, meaning infinite couldn’t restrain and since he was using magic instead of an unstable energy filled jewel it meant that he didn’t need to worry about any limits it could have, like needing to constantly focus while using or any physical limits it might have when it comes to using it (it’s not exactly defined thanks to Forces terrible writing that almost made me think I didn’t like Sonic so it’s best just to go off of what is shown rather than what the media at the time said)
3) Kamek can disable abilities and summon almost anything (including more minions just like the other magikoopas) and even buff other minions, so considering all of that it is not that much of a stretch to say he could teleport something small into bowser’s grasp like he does in Mario party, and the chance time bit was just there as a cute nod like Metal saying I’ll crush you or Eggman saying he has come to make an announcement, rather than saying chance time is an ability he always has since all feel canon even if they aren’t 100% to how it would happen for real.
4) He doesn’t have Starline because Starline was barely considered a part of the Eggman empire and was quickly dumped due to not listening to orders, versus Infinite who was the opposite and a major part even if he wasn’t seen in future games just like the hard boiled heavies, who were most likely not included due to how they wanted to focus the battle, speaking of which
5) Heavy king being fought by super sonic doesn’t mean he is on the same scale as perfect chaos, Solaris etc. it was most likely why that battle happened the way it did, was because the emeralds might trigger certain responses in the phantom ruby, that would explain why Metal only gets the ruby if you get all the emeralds first before fighting him
6) Sonic getting stronger every second is a bit of stretch, because just because something is said doesn’t mean it confirms scaling or is a feat in itself unless it is shown through scalable means, that would also make heavy king severely weaker looking back considering classic super sonic easily beat him and Eggman at the same time, and also proves why every newer mech being stronger than the last is a weak argument considering he also considers the slot machine that hurts himself is greatest creation in shadow the hedgehog
7) it is really dumb your last point considering you said it was just them being sappy, when most of bowser’s army is based around working as a team to become stronger, Kamek buffs allies, the elite trio and other minion teams will revive each other to keep the fight going through 1-ups and more minion back up, they can cover their own weaknesses more than Eggman’s army, and they can even formulate a lot more strategies on the fly a majority of badniks and even some of Eggman’s generals couldn’t do as much when the battle got hectic, which ensure that their would be more surviving troops on Bowser’s side near the end which is where both armies would need the leg up the most since both have debating attacks that could easily wipe out a lot members of both sides when they hit.
8) the chaos emeralds may have unlimited energy, but it doesn’t mean that you can instantly do anything with, unless you have a super form or the right machine (something even Eggman struggles to figure out) plus you can argue unlimited energy just refers to the as a power source/enabler rather than what they can do especially since even with them Super Sonic still has to put a lot of effort in order to win his fights so why doesn’t he just use the unlimited power to rewrite the universe to not have that foe which is something both the wonder flower, the dream stone, and debatably the power stars can do, something’s bowser can utilize more easily thanks to his magic while Eggman often has to build around using stuff like the emeralds which limit them.
Also they made the chaos emeralds have less power then it has (the chaos emeralds can let the user wish for one thing as well as the master emerald which they didn't use for some reason)
Also canonically they negate magic and negative affects as proven in the comics
Ngl if Mario games are mid then sonic games are garbage 💀
Like bro, you didn’t have to say that just cause your favorite video game series lost
Mario games are boring man, in one ear and out the other
I personally believed that Metal Sonic could’ve helped Eggman win by copying Bowser’s bio data, and finding a way to get Kamek out of the picture early.
What made me furious is their explaination for Sage's weakness.
They said Sonic proved Sage's caucalation wrong,
But it's actually the amount that Bowser brought that overwhelmed Sage's caucalations.
Not only is it meaningless but also controversial for Sonic fans hear such a thing from the makers that didn't properly explain and let others to fill the hole.
Y'know, I feel like they glossed over a lotta bowser stuff too. Why? Runtime and budget! Seriously, though. You can't expect everything to appear in the fight or even the analysis.
To bring up a couple bowser things though, lets start with king boo.
He has the paintings of course, which have an insane size (could fit a giant building in LM3), gravitational pull, and seemingly provide a sort of stasis, possibly preventing some escape methods.
Then theres the spirit orbs, which can either possess things, or make them disappear. He can spawn these (and boos that are taught this technique can spawn them too!) quite quickly, and has no implied limit.
Then theres the pixelator feat, which would give bowsers side another way to deal with the displacement trap (he reconstructed luigi from being "pixelated", which apparently works on a molecular level).
Then theres the arguments for bowsers immeasurable speed. He fight culex, for one. who says he operates on a diet of time and "YOU!". admittedly, im not sure if this is consistent with final fantasy bosses of the time, so dont take my word for it.
Then theres the chaos heart (blah blah blah mario cosmology blah blah blah) he could blah blah blah dodge dimentios attacks.
You can tell im not a fan of dimension scaling.
Anyways, I dont wanna be mean, but I dont really buy any base sonic immeasurable stuff, or infinite scaling to solaris. Most of the base immeasurable stuff comes from statements that lack context, like the "speeding through time and space" line. From what ive seen in generations, hes going through levels (arriving at them in a non-immeasurable way), and him using his speed in those levels is restoring them for some reason. Video game plots, folks. Still no immeasurable implications though.
Then the infinite statement... if sonic gets stronger every second, classic sonic should be below modern. Yeah, classic fought time eater, but everything considered, he should be putting in much, much less work than Mr. modern. Any statement by eggman (including the phantom ruby being stronger than the master emerald or whatever) gets immediately invalidated by the egg dealer. you cannot convince me the egg dealer was his greatest machine at that time.
Infinite also had a different ruby than the heavy king! context matters!
anyways, those are mostly the only problems I have.
Any chance you had of appearing unbiased went out the window the moment you wrote off all the Mario games as 'mid'. I love both the classic Mario AND Sonic games and that was just petty of you.
Mario is boring to me. Galaxy is fun, and 64 was undoubtedly revolutionary. But I get nothing out of them. In one ear, out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969 My point is you dishonor both franchises.
Even if Death Battle wanted to go the route of the modified Phantom Ruby taking time to charge to actually be utilised… they literally brought up the Time Stones, just have Eggman accelerate the time it takes to gather that energy, boom! Issue solved!
Plus claiming that Bowser’s minions would resists memory manipulation from the Egg Field or Lightman due to resisting Fawful’s brainwashing is just really, really dumb. Not only do they bypass the innate resistances some of the cast have to the likes of Ifrit and Dark Gaia, but they ALSO were going to overcome the resistance a single Chaos Emerald gave against memory manipulation! Bowser, nor his army have anything to resist memory manipulation like that.
And they REALLY underrated Sage here. They said her simulations wouldn’t be reliable as she was unable to predict many of the things Sonic did during the events of Frontiers, but SEVERAL TIMES throughout the Japanese dialogue of the game, we are told Sonic is defying fate and causality in doing all of these things! No fucking shit Sage couldn’t predict that! This would NOT apply for Bowser or his army.
And they also didn’t bring up Cyberspace all that much despite how big of an advantage it is. Not only does being trapped in there take a snapshot of all your memories and add it to realm, free for Sage’s simulations as she has full control over Cyberspace post Frontiers thanks to The End no longer interfering, but being trapped, and assuming you somehow get out, would leave you digitised, you’d start losing memories, your emotions would start being messed with, but most importantly, it straight up locks you out of using certain moves and abilities, prime example being Amy not being able to use her Pico Pico Hammer.
You know it'd be really funny if bowser could time travel as well, without needing stones to do so.
@ not the point I was making, both have type 1 acausality through all their wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey rubbish, both can time travel freely, Bowser naturally, while Eggman has several options for it, with Time Eater rendering it void. The point I was making, was that Eggman can literally accelerate the rate at which the Ruby charges, the Time Stones aren’t generic time travelling gems, they have control over time period.
@@mugenkage4965 based doctor who reference
Pretty sure one of the alternative scenarios shows that they think castle Bowser would still be able to handle so even if he had it it wouldn't be of much use
Which you know is debatable but it's not like they don't bring it up
@ much appreciated!
Wonder Bowser is a VERY big win con for him, I will admit, but that’s only if he’s had time to charge the form. The main win con he gets is layered transmutation, which Eggman, nor any of his army have a resistance to, but fortunately for the Doc, it’s AOE to start out with is… kinda pitiful, it would only have reached universal levels of range had Bowser fully charged it without being interrupted, and with Eggman not needing to even be on the field at all to activate his win con of memory manipulation, it’s kind of a big deal (also to add on to this, this is under the assumption that it would even be Wonder Bowser going up against Lightman in the first place, which is giving a TON of leeway to Bowser, almost to a point where it seems he has pre fight knowledge of Eggman).
NO WAY a sonic fan is calling Mario games “mid”
Exactly
Mario games are boring man, they make me wanna just go 😴
@Unremarkable6969 me when I play any sonic game
About king boo: The reason why it wouldn't work because the phantom ruby very specifically targets the perception of someone. Causing it to fuck with one's mind and think it's real when it really isn't. This is even the case for his gravity manipulation. But even if we give him the gravity manipulation, the issue here is that it wouldn't effect king boo. He's a ghost that doesn't fall under the laws of gravity.
It’s stated multiple times in Sonic forces how the Ruby targets your brain
Plus the second the phantom ruby activates, King boo is gonna EXACTLY know how it works as it works very similar if not exactly like his magic.