I think you are not wrong and in the end, the consumer will profit from it. What I like about Lelit is they innovative pushing the Boundaries and can only benefit the consumers. One reason I will get it next month Elisabeth that has many features that not many machines have
I like the people there - they seem pretty genuine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and I hope they can do something innovative. I feel there's scope for a bit more innovation. Enjoy the new Elisabeth when it arrives. My two sons are living with me at the moment - we're abusing the heck out of Bianca I have, and it's doing a fine job.
@@bartalks1810 Thanks for your reply enjoy your Espresso. Bianca is a great Machine but only 2 espressos in the morning and 2 in the afternoon is a bit overkill for me
agreed - so far it looks like Breville are letting them do their thing, maybe with more R&D & Marketing dollars, I'm interested to see what happens for the next generation of machines though,
Breville Group: total revenue 2019-2021 Australian home appliance manufacturer Breville Group brought in around 894.4 million U.S. dollars in revenue in the 2021 financial year. The company reported growing revenues compared to the previous year, when Breville's revenue amounted to around 717.1 million U.S. dollars.
Breville make good products, I used their dual boiler for 5 years, never missed a beat with around 6k cups. Its a big jump in price, certainly in Au where you can get the dual boiler for sub AUD1k on sale to say a Bianca (which Im looking at buying now) for AUD$4,300. Breville's global sales are close to 900M pa with around 26% growth. Lelit has also had strong growth, sold 48k units in 2020, tripling its workforce from 80 to 240 to manage the growth. I think Breville can bring a lot to the party with distribution and manufacturing (all Lelit are hand made), cash and software. Lelit can provide Breville with a prosumer range beyond current offerings. I think it could be good, I am hoping so anyway.
Hi Ian, thanks for those insights. I'm planning a follow up interview with Mauro from LELIT to get more information, so watch this space... well watch bartalks.net because it will be a written interview :)
I think you are absolutely right as to their vision and I think it's absolutely horrific. This is the continuing stupification of our society. Yes, learning on my Gaggia Classic was a pain. Even learning how important the grinder was in the process was an expensive shock but I learnt and with it all was a sense of accomplishment. Learning how steam milk and don't even get me started on latte art, all of these things are skills that require a journey. Discovering decent roasters as opposed to the 'Regular C" roasters provides things to talk about with your friends and a warm fuzzy feeling of arcane knowledge. Pulling a less than perfect espresso and analyzing what went wrong gains insight and experience. All of this to be swept away in yet another push for the convenient cosseting mediocrity of consumerism. Push a button for the perfect beverage. I'm sure Breville will make millions and the life expectancy of their appliances will still be 36 months.
I think you have it right. Clive Coffee (equipment reseller in Portland OR) did something similar - purchased a beans reseller and had a grinder built (the Lucca by Eureka) that had profiles for all the beans they sold via their beans subsidiary. Not sure how it’s working out for them, but this is the direction things are going. All about selling those beans - kind of like inject printers, all about the ink sales and the machine tells you when to buy more.
I'm considering purchasing a Breville Oracle machine. Should I wait for the next edition in hopes of it featuring enhanced smart capabilities and an improved grinder, or is such an upgrade likely to be several years away?
I'm personally not convinced by the Breville smart machines. My Dad had the Touch, and it was clunky. On paper it should work, but in practice it never did. If you get a chance to try one out, I recommend you do that before committing. An alternative is to buy one used, and then if you resell it, you won't lose much. I do like some of the other breville models, like the dual boiler, or the Barista express, which is a lot cheaper. My friend has a Barista express, and with the money they saved, bought a separate grinder. Hopefully those give you some ideas to think about :)
When Geely China acquired Volvo of Sweden. Everyone was skeptical, thinking that Volvo will literally be stripped down and vanish. Fast forward many years later, Volvo's Swedish identity has been reinforced. The products are as Volvo as ever before. Geely and Volvo continued to focus on their target segments. However the synergy is amazing - shared platform, cross fertilisation of competencies and today, no one is complaining. That, should allay fears that Breville might destroy Lelit and Baratza.
True, It comes down to the management team doing the buyout Wong. You're right about Volvo though, I read recently how they sent a team of sound engineers into local forests to record sounds they could use in the console. One of the researchers stepped on a twig which snapped. That is now the sound a Volvo makes when you use the indicator. So Swedish, and I love that this culture endures :)
@@nickbaskett3537 Lelit and Breville address different needs. I am now considering between a BDB and an Elizabeth, can't help but to notice that the value proposition of both models are so different.
Agree that Breville are positioning themselves to become an integrated coffee giant. Good background insight on the board and speculation on where they are headed. As a Bianca owner I am pleased with what it can do and it is reasonably well built for the price. I hope and expect we will see a new machine taking advantage of Breville’s industrial design and integrated electronic controllers to compete with machines like the SanRemo You but at a more accessible price.
I think that's their plan Festerfeet. Espresso machine companies are getting better with software design, but we're still just at the beginning. Breville is positioning all the pieces on the chessboard and if they get it right, they'll do a big leap forward in a few years
Funny you mention that, I was wondering the same thing yesterday, then this morning I got this email: As some of you may already know, Covid has been affecting many suppliers and businesses in China this year, especially as the government is going for zero-Covid. That unfortunately impacted our suppliers too. As an example, our anodiser had been ordered to shut down for the past few weeks for that reason. As a result of that, we foresee there is a slight disruption to our original production schedule we're expecting a slight delay unfortunately. As anodization is key to our part production (the final step), we will need our anodiser to be back online before we can get the parts required. We expect there may be 2-3 weeks of delay from our original estimate, to approximately mid/late-April. Does that give you a clue?
This has overtones similar to what has been happening with cameras. You used to have very large distinctions between low end and high end cameras…. Lots of complicated and expensive equipment that required significant expertise. Over time, the low end cameras have dramatically improved. They have improbably automated much of the expertise that used to be the exclusive domain of professionals and high end hobbyists. Iy looks like Breville will be trying to do a similar thing with the coffee market. They will be making higher end equipment more accessible in price and expertise. They will be making lower end equipment more “respectable”. They appear to be set on integrating the many disparate elements of the industry. Of course it will not be easy. Pro Sumer hobbyists love the exclusive finesse of their expertise. But there will be an increasing number of newbies who are intimidated by the demands (and price) of the prosumer market. I anticipate that Breville will rapidly incorporate incremental improvements that will make higher end coffee increasingly accessible
I hope you are right. I think that Sage needs to change their line and we design machines and move more in to a pro line of machines, keep the price reasonable affordable area
Very interesting, thanks. If Breville are planning to do what you think they are planning to do, then it seems to me they should do it with the Lelit brand name. That's because if they do it with the Breville brand name, then they will have to be better than VW did when they up-graded the Skoda brand, which they did very successfully. That's because VW had the good brand name and they pulled Skoda up to their level … whereas with Berville and Lelit it's the other way around. For the last year I've been wondering if I should buy the Lelit Elizabeth V3 or the Sage/Breville Dual Boiler. Now I know which one to buy…..thanks
Thanks Tony, a company like Breville is going to grow through acquisition and consolidation. That is a skill in itself, but I think their approach will likely be to manage a portfolio of brands, each which has a particular target market. Lelit should be their innovative, agile, prosumer brand.
I don’t think I would buy a Lelit machine after owning a Breville. I’m sure they will now have more proprietary parts that you will only be able to purchase through them. I’m sure they want to increase profits and increase market share by flooding the stores with their machines.
@@heikization You just talk and listen to much on youtube that never really explained much seems they just don't like that Lelit is cheaper but much more innovative. Yes agree the s/s is thinner than the competition but what is important is the technical aspect and makes very good espresso and that was count/
I honestly don't get how someone can taste an espresso (properly grinded and...) made by a sage machine and think they need anything more I'm sure 99% of people won't be able to (blind taste) tell if my espresso made with the barista pro is better or worse than one made by more professional equipment I would love if all espresso machines will eventually have one standard for everything. I hate buying all my extra things specifically for 54mm
Most people will be happy with that, but some weirdo's like me will always want to keep picking at it until we reach some kind of state of coffee enlightenment.
@@bartalks1810 I find that enlightenment by switching my beans every kilo. That way I can always be sensitive to small new notes in my espresso. I think that the notion that a pricier coffee machine makes better coffee is just an inherent bias of assuming things are worth the price. all a coffee machine does in the end is put water in the right temperature in the right pressure. I'm really curious to do something scientific here, like testing the concentration of various chemicals in espresso made with different coffee machine (from the same grinder), but I don't have the money for that lol. could easily do that with a spectrophotometer if I had access to coffee machines
with respect, i disagree. my coffee journey was from filter coffee to gaggia to sage oracle (b4 it went digital) and i thought the oracle was the dog's boll***** (loved the milk frother) until .i realised the built-in grinder just wasn't good enuff when i changed beans (yes, we all know the message is to get a good grinder but it's only when u have a substandard grinder that u realise the truth of that message) and made the plunge/investment into/with a prosumer double boiler (profitec) and decent grinder (eureka mignon) . loved the idea of semiautomatic - hence me buying the breville oracle. i was never into all the faff (dialling in every time i change beans, learning how to froth milk, etc.) required but now it is just part of my routine and even quite enjoyable - it is the price i pay in terms of time 2 pay 4 decent coffee, so diff strokes for diff folks. grt analysis from bartalks and putting all the parts 2gether, he's seems on point. what is coming from sage in the next 3-4 years? is 2 late 4 me, but i would have been a potential market for a sub-prosumer machine, better han oracle but not so expensive a s a full-on prosumer machine.
@@coffeebreakhero3743 well, you can get a TDS meter, but that will tell only you the extraction amount. Often more related to the grinder than the machine. At bartalks we have covered a few news stories of systems - the latest from Succafina, that does sensory analysis on green beans, assigning scores to the coffee that matches a trained Q Grader.. Just a matter of time before that technology pervades and we can do sensory analysis inside the coffee machine itself. But at that point, I'll be sipping my espresso at the retirement home. Or in heaven. Or in the other place :/
That will be item 74 on the board agenda... 🙂 I guess they'll take anything useful from it they can reuse. I doesn't make sense to have two brands of grinder inside the group in my personal opinion. I would rationalise the product lines into those two consumer and prosumer ranges which will include the grinder technology. My guess is that the LELIT and Baratza brands will eventually disappear.
nope. Buy what you need now, I don't think you'll see any difference for quite a while. These things take years typically before the change comes to market.
Breville is an appliance maker. Not just espresso but everything they make. They could destroy lellit. Becoming more important for companies like ECM to remain independent. I would call it Breville Lellit. So many companies plan to keep the talent with the existing CEO. Only after a year or two later they leave because of differences. May not happen here but the odds are not good. I would be less concerned with pairing the bean to the grinder, etc. More concerned with sustainability and figuring out how to prepare for climate changes that already are having a negative influence on the coffee bean.
What I am thinking? I think that whatever Breville is gonna touch that the item is turning into the shit. I'm already so sorry for future of lelit. And shame as I just bought Elizabeth.
Yuck! I hope not. That would be heading in the wrong direction for Breville with the Lelit brand. A better direction would be to replace the current "LCC" with more refined and feature packed control unit/PID from Breville while not adding cheap plastics with metal finishes.
Never really liked the Lelit as a brand most of their model feel like OEM equipment - not sure what will happen to Lelit but there are better espresso machines with better history and technology…
estitic wise i think breville is just awfull. Yje maschine should have classic look and any higher tec things just hide away,,, an app. Any woman will tell you that all meters are just proof yore out of toch I child
I hate the app idea John, we might fall out over that one 😂 but I get what you're saying about simplicity and clean lines - there's definitely some truth to that.
I think you are not wrong and in the end, the consumer will profit from it. What I like about Lelit is they innovative pushing the Boundaries and can only benefit the consumers. One reason I will get it next month Elisabeth that has many features that not many machines have
I like the people there - they seem pretty genuine. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and I hope they can do something innovative. I feel there's scope for a bit more innovation. Enjoy the new Elisabeth when it arrives. My two sons are living with me at the moment - we're abusing the heck out of Bianca I have, and it's doing a fine job.
@@bartalks1810 Thanks for your reply enjoy your Espresso. Bianca is a great Machine but only 2 espressos in the morning and 2 in the afternoon is a bit overkill for me
Well, I don’t think Lelit’s going anywhere. It’s been over a year and they’re still selling Italian manufactured espresso machines
agreed - so far it looks like Breville are letting them do their thing, maybe with more R&D & Marketing dollars, I'm interested to see what happens for the next generation of machines though,
Breville Group: total revenue 2019-2021
Australian home appliance manufacturer Breville Group brought in around 894.4 million U.S. dollars in revenue in the 2021 financial year. The company reported growing revenues compared to the previous year, when Breville's revenue amounted to around 717.1 million U.S. dollars.
Breville make good products, I used their dual boiler for 5 years, never missed a beat with around 6k cups. Its a big jump in price, certainly in Au where you can get the dual boiler for sub AUD1k on sale to say a Bianca (which Im looking at buying now) for AUD$4,300. Breville's global sales are close to 900M pa with around 26% growth. Lelit has also had strong growth, sold 48k units in 2020, tripling its workforce from 80 to 240 to manage the growth. I think Breville can bring a lot to the party with distribution and manufacturing (all Lelit are hand made), cash and software. Lelit can provide Breville with a prosumer range beyond current offerings. I think it could be good, I am hoping so anyway.
Hi Ian, thanks for those insights. I'm planning a follow up interview with Mauro from LELIT to get more information, so watch this space... well watch bartalks.net because it will be a written interview :)
When I read the news thats what I expected! Breville is looking for the technology like they are probably doing with the Baratza acquisition!
I think you are absolutely right as to their vision and I think it's absolutely horrific. This is the continuing stupification of our society. Yes, learning on my Gaggia Classic was a pain. Even learning how important the grinder was in the process was an expensive shock but I learnt and with it all was a sense of accomplishment. Learning how steam milk and don't even get me started on latte art, all of these things are skills that require a journey. Discovering decent roasters as opposed to the 'Regular C" roasters provides things to talk about with your friends and a warm fuzzy feeling of arcane knowledge. Pulling a less than perfect espresso and analyzing what went wrong gains insight and experience. All of this to be swept away in yet another push for the convenient cosseting mediocrity of consumerism. Push a button for the perfect beverage. I'm sure Breville will make millions and the life expectancy of their appliances will still be 36 months.
I think you have it right. Clive Coffee (equipment reseller in Portland OR) did something similar - purchased a beans reseller and had a grinder built (the Lucca by Eureka) that had profiles for all the beans they sold via their beans subsidiary. Not sure how it’s working out for them, but this is the direction things are going. All about selling those beans - kind of like inject printers, all about the ink sales and the machine tells you when to buy more.
Exactly right. I didn't know Clive Coffee did that! I'll have to look into it.
I'm considering purchasing a Breville Oracle machine. Should I wait for the next edition in hopes of it featuring enhanced smart capabilities and an improved grinder, or is such an upgrade likely to be several years away?
I'm personally not convinced by the Breville smart machines. My Dad had the Touch, and it was clunky. On paper it should work, but in practice it never did. If you get a chance to try one out, I recommend you do that before committing. An alternative is to buy one used, and then if you resell it, you won't lose much.
I do like some of the other breville models, like the dual boiler, or the Barista express, which is a lot cheaper. My friend has a Barista express, and with the money they saved, bought a separate grinder.
Hopefully those give you some ideas to think about :)
When Geely China acquired Volvo of Sweden. Everyone was skeptical, thinking that Volvo will literally be stripped down and vanish.
Fast forward many years later, Volvo's Swedish identity has been reinforced. The products are as Volvo as ever before.
Geely and Volvo continued to focus on their target segments. However the synergy is amazing - shared platform, cross fertilisation of competencies and today, no one is complaining.
That, should allay fears that Breville might destroy Lelit and Baratza.
True, It comes down to the management team doing the buyout Wong. You're right about Volvo though, I read recently how they sent a team of sound engineers into local forests to record sounds they could use in the console. One of the researchers stepped on a twig which snapped. That is now the sound a Volvo makes when you use the indicator. So Swedish, and I love that this culture endures :)
@@nickbaskett3537 Lelit and Breville address different needs. I am now considering between a BDB and an Elizabeth, can't help but to notice that the value proposition of both models are so different.
Agree that Breville are positioning themselves to become an integrated coffee giant. Good background insight on the board and speculation on where they are headed. As a Bianca owner I am pleased with what it can do and it is reasonably well built for the price. I hope and expect we will see a new machine taking advantage of Breville’s industrial design and integrated electronic controllers to compete with machines like the SanRemo You but at a more accessible price.
I think that's their plan Festerfeet. Espresso machine companies are getting better with software design, but we're still just at the beginning. Breville is positioning all the pieces on the chessboard and if they get it right, they'll do a big leap forward in a few years
@@bartalks1810 Let’s hope so, all for innovation and choice. On a separate note Nick, did you get your new grinder, when can we expect the big reveal?
Funny you mention that, I was wondering the same thing yesterday, then this morning I got this email:
As some of you may already know, Covid has been affecting many suppliers and businesses in China this year, especially as the government is going for zero-Covid. That unfortunately impacted our suppliers too. As an example, our anodiser had been ordered to shut down for the past few weeks for that reason. As a result of that, we foresee there is a slight disruption to our original production schedule we're expecting a slight delay unfortunately. As anodization is key to our part production (the final step), we will need our anodiser to be back online before we can get the parts required. We expect there may be 2-3 weeks of delay from our original estimate, to approximately mid/late-April.
Does that give you a clue?
@@bartalks1810 As I live in China, that gives me three clues ;) Good choice. Hopefully you won’t have to wait for too long..
Thanks for info, we are looking at Lelit Kate or a Victoria. It will be interesting to see how the acquisition rolls out in the years to come.
This has overtones similar to what has been happening with cameras. You used to have very large distinctions between low end and high end cameras…. Lots of complicated and expensive equipment that required significant expertise. Over time, the low end cameras have dramatically improved. They have improbably automated much of the expertise that used to be the exclusive domain of professionals and high end hobbyists.
Iy looks like Breville will be trying to do a similar thing with the coffee market. They will be making higher end equipment more accessible in price and expertise. They will be making lower end equipment more “respectable”. They appear to be set on integrating the many disparate elements of the industry.
Of course it will not be easy. Pro Sumer hobbyists love the exclusive finesse of their expertise. But there will be an increasing number of newbies who are intimidated by the demands (and price) of the prosumer market. I anticipate that Breville will rapidly incorporate incremental improvements that will make higher end coffee increasingly accessible
Excellent summary. Let me know if you want a job as a writer for our news site :)
I hope you are right. I think that Sage needs to change their line and we design machines and move more in to a pro line of machines, keep the price reasonable affordable area
That's my hope too!
Very interesting, thanks. If Breville are planning to do what you think they are planning to do, then it seems to me they should do it with the Lelit brand name. That's because if they do it with the Breville brand name, then they will have to be better than VW did when they up-graded the Skoda brand, which they did very successfully. That's because VW had the good brand name and they pulled Skoda up to their level … whereas with Berville and Lelit it's the other way around. For the last year I've been wondering if I should buy the Lelit Elizabeth V3 or the Sage/Breville Dual Boiler. Now I know which one to buy…..thanks
Thanks Tony, a company like Breville is going to grow through acquisition and consolidation. That is a skill in itself, but I think their approach will likely be to manage a portfolio of brands, each which has a particular target market. Lelit should be their innovative, agile, prosumer brand.
I don’t think I would buy a Lelit machine after owning a Breville. I’m sure they will now have more proprietary parts that you will only be able to purchase through them. I’m sure they want to increase profits and increase market share by flooding the stores with their machines.
I hope that they would not do off shore manufacturing for the Lelit machines
I doubt it, knowing Italian culture that would be unlikely
Definitely it will be made in China soon after the acquisition!
Omg 😱 crap meets good stuff… hope the guys at Lelit stay with the new line up
I don't think Lelit is known for their build quality...
@@heikization Why? Can you explain?
@@heikization You just talk and listen to much on youtube that never really explained much seems they just don't like that Lelit is cheaper but much more innovative. Yes agree the s/s is thinner than the competition but what is important is the technical aspect and makes very good espresso and that was count/
Could this be a long-term play to skim from the Nestle Nespresso customer base?
I honestly don't get how someone can taste an espresso (properly grinded and...) made by a sage machine and think they need anything more
I'm sure 99% of people won't be able to (blind taste) tell if my espresso made with the barista pro is better or worse than one made by more professional equipment
I would love if all espresso machines will eventually have one standard for everything.
I hate buying all my extra things specifically for 54mm
Most people will be happy with that, but some weirdo's like me will always want to keep picking at it until we reach some kind of state of coffee enlightenment.
@@bartalks1810 I find that enlightenment by switching my beans every kilo. That way I can always be sensitive to small new notes in my espresso.
I think that the notion that a pricier coffee machine makes better coffee is just an inherent bias of assuming things are worth the price. all a coffee machine does in the end is put water in the right temperature in the right pressure.
I'm really curious to do something scientific here, like testing the concentration of various chemicals in espresso made with different coffee machine (from the same grinder), but I don't have the money for that lol.
could easily do that with a spectrophotometer if I had access to coffee machines
with respect, i disagree. my coffee journey was from filter coffee to gaggia to sage oracle (b4 it went digital) and i thought the oracle was the dog's boll***** (loved the milk frother) until .i realised the built-in grinder just wasn't good enuff when i changed beans (yes, we all know the message is to get a good grinder but it's only when u have a substandard grinder that u realise the truth of that message) and made the plunge/investment into/with a prosumer double boiler (profitec) and decent grinder (eureka mignon) . loved the idea of semiautomatic - hence me buying the breville oracle. i was never into all the faff (dialling in every time i change beans, learning how to froth milk, etc.) required but now it is just part of my routine and even quite enjoyable - it is the price i pay in terms of time 2 pay 4 decent coffee, so diff strokes for diff folks. grt analysis from bartalks and putting all the parts 2gether, he's seems on point. what is coming from sage in the next 3-4 years? is 2 late 4 me, but i would have been a potential market for a sub-prosumer machine, better han oracle but not so expensive a s a full-on prosumer machine.
@@arthurvandeman I think you identify with a big market. Breville is no fool.
@@coffeebreakhero3743 well, you can get a TDS meter, but that will tell only you the extraction amount. Often more related to the grinder than the machine. At bartalks we have covered a few news stories of systems - the latest from Succafina, that does sensory analysis on green beans, assigning scores to the coffee that matches a trained Q Grader.. Just a matter of time before that technology pervades and we can do sensory analysis inside the coffee machine itself. But at that point, I'll be sipping my espresso at the retirement home. Or in heaven. Or in the other place :/
Where does that leave Lelit grinders?
That will be item 74 on the board agenda... 🙂 I guess they'll take anything useful from it they can reuse. I doesn't make sense to have two brands of grinder inside the group in my personal opinion. I would rationalise the product lines into those two consumer and prosumer ranges which will include the grinder technology. My guess is that the LELIT and Baratza brands will eventually disappear.
Great analysis!
Thank you
So what do you think when you’re about to buy a Lelit Mara X? Should you wait? Thanks!
nope. Buy what you need now, I don't think you'll see any difference for quite a while. These things take years typically before the change comes to market.
Is Breville trying to be the Google of coffee products? Why is it still legal to buy all the competition.
Well, there's no danger of them forming a monopoly in the market, as there's many other players - let's see what they do with the talent at LELIT.
They haven’t bought ALL the competition. They bought ONE company, and there’s many others. How small do you think DeLonghi really are?
Breville is an appliance maker. Not just espresso but everything they make. They could destroy lellit. Becoming more important for companies like ECM to remain independent.
I would call it Breville Lellit. So many companies plan to keep the talent with the existing CEO. Only after a year or two later they leave because of differences. May not happen here but the odds are not good.
I would be less concerned with pairing the bean to the grinder, etc. More concerned with sustainability and figuring out how to prepare for climate changes that already are having a negative influence on the coffee bean.
What I am thinking? I think that whatever Breville is gonna touch that the item is turning into the shit. I'm already so sorry for future of lelit. And shame as I just bought Elizabeth.
😞
Lelit will be coming out with there all plastic line.
Yuck! I hope not. That would be heading in the wrong direction for Breville with the Lelit brand. A better direction would be to replace the current "LCC" with more refined and feature packed control unit/PID from Breville while not adding cheap plastics with metal finishes.
Never really liked the Lelit as a brand most of their model feel like OEM equipment - not sure what will happen to Lelit but there are better espresso machines with better history and technology…
estitic wise i think breville is just awfull. Yje maschine should have classic look and any higher tec things just hide away,,, an app. Any woman will tell you that all meters are just proof yore out of toch I child
I hate the app idea John, we might fall out over that one 😂 but I get what you're saying about simplicity and clean lines - there's definitely some truth to that.