Thank you for your honest review... actually made me buy one, and can say that plumbed in, living the valleys, first consistent espresso I've had since I moved back. Certainly can't get one in any local place around here at the moment. Maybe it's easier to keep clean with hardly any limescale? Even with naked portafilter, little to no mess. I thought the flush bit was visible so that you can see when you've back-flushed enough? Maybe after 2 years, I'll say the same as you, but right now, still learning to get my milk consistent, as espresso is hard to get wrong now. Sage machine this has replaced did great milk without effort, but was massive exercise to get espresso right (should've have got the one with the grinder built-in as have to adjust all day/minute by minute). R58 does everything else that's useful (e.g. warm cups, plumb in, consistent espresso, look gorgeous), but some skill still required, but with grinder combination, espresso has become less of a hobby, and now it's just get my milk skills better. Oh, pre-infusion, just a gentle lift, click might be nice, but not an issue, really. While it works OK with reservoir, just plumb it in with in-line filter for greatest pleasure.
Definitely the preinfusion "click" is a must-have for the next version. Agree with all being said. Cleaning and splashing is a pain in the ass but it is something it comes with this kind of machines. After having for 6months my only complain is that when you have the water reservoir it is not accurate when it runs low on water, meaning, it tells you when there is NO water, instead of warning you when you still have for one or two shots before running dry. Besides that Im 100% happy with my purchase. I recommend it
The next machine I really dream of getting is a big spring-lever machine from ACS. It’s called the Vesuvius Evo Leva. It has two boilers and 3 PID’s. One PID for each boiler and the third PID in the group. It also has cartridge heaters in the group so the whole machine heats up in about 15 minutes. When you pull a shot you yank down on the big lever to cock the dual springs and at the bottom it starts the rotary pump, giving you preinfusion (which you can customize in the menu). After you let go of the lever the pump shuts off and the springs do all the work, giving you this very smooth and even spring profile (which people on fancy machines like the Decent always try to copy). A beautiful thing about the whole operation is that once you’re finished making coffee you just move the cup out of the way and let the rest slowly drain into the drip tray. There’s no violent release of pressure to splash all over the machine!
yep, not the first one to suggest that. It looks like a big machine though. I'm not sure about lever machines, I'm going hot and cold on them. I'll meditate a bit and maybe things will be clearer.
As for the other stuff you talked about. I have a Lelit MaraX and I found the lever only squeaks a little bit after I do a round of backflushes using Cafiza detergent. Once I start making coffees again the coffee oil tends to lubricate the cam which stops the squeaking and makes it run smooth. My machine has a vibration pump so I don’t have any line-pressure preinfusion to work with and so I don’t have to worry about lifting the knob too far or what have you. I just lift it all the way up to engage the pump and pull it back down to stop. I do get some preinfusion because the group has a flow restriction valve at the top that causes pressure to ramp up slowly over the first 10 seconds but it’s not something I can control.
I imagine the backflush is raised so that it doesn't splash dirty water already in the drip tray all over the place. Even machines that have it a bit more hidden, like the Silvia, have the valve raised up but hidden behind an SS cover.
The craziest thing about the Evo Leva is that you can set one temperature in the boiler and a different temperature in the group and this lets you do temperature profiling. For some coffees you may want high temperature in the beginning to extract a lot of the good bits and then declining temperature over time to keep down the bitterness. For other coffees you might want the opposite. Who knows! It’s yet another thing to experiment with!
You can set the position at which the pump turns on by adjusting the depth of the switch behind the lever. This will allow you in increase or decrease the range of preinfusion.
Great stuff! I, personally, would feel very skittish about a plumbed-in machine that shows any sign of leaks whatsoever. I have heard of people going away for a weekend and coming back to a swimming pool in their kitchen. The same story applies to laundry machines and dishwashers, though those are often installed with floor drains nearby to avoid some of the worst issues. If I were to get my own plumbed-in machine at some point in the future I would definitely do some kind of drain underneath it so that the worst a leak can do is run up a large water bill without destroying my house.
Lastly, I’ll point out that the spring lever delivers a whopping 11 bars if you just let it go completely. You can back this off very easily to anything from 0-11 bars just by slowing the lever down with your hand. This gives all the control of a fully manual lever machine but it’s much easier to control since you’re subtracting a little bit of pressure off the top rather than having to give all the pressure yourself during the shot. There is of course a pressure gauge right on top of the group so you can see the feedback in real time.
@@timzlow It is on e61 machines. But there is a whole category of espresso machines that use levers, either fully manual or assisted by a spring, to generate the pressure to make coffee. Lever machines are much beloved by their owners for the lever profile which is said to produce amazing espresso. Complicated electronic profiling machines like the Decent offer profiles that attempt to replicate the lever profile and these tend to be very popular.
The water was tested by Adrian from a local coffee maintenance company. I don’t remember the results but it’s very hard water. We used that to configure a filter from bwt. Yes I could connect the drip tray to my waste pipe, but I didn’t do it.
See that's a hard question to answer for several reasons, mainly because if it was my *next* machine, I'd probably spend more than that, otherwise the upgrade wouldn't be worth it. There's definitely a diminishing return, but I'd have to say - don't hate me - that I'd look at either getting something that fitted my new planned kitchen design better ( a minimalist kind of white and oak look) or I'd go with something like the Victoria Arduino Eagle One. My previous favourite - the Sanremo YOU has had a massive price hike and is now over $6k which is insane, so that's not in the running any more. I might do a mini video on my favourite machines at the moment.
I have a BWT bestmax system. There are a lot to choose from, but luckily I have a friendly coffee maintenance professional who came by and tested the water and then chose this for me.
That's what I always thought. Why can't they make the discharge slightly longer, or or the drip tray cover a little higher so that the discharger is below the cover.
Thank you for your honest review... actually made me buy one, and can say that plumbed in, living the valleys, first consistent espresso I've had since I moved back. Certainly can't get one in any local place around here at the moment. Maybe it's easier to keep clean with hardly any limescale? Even with naked portafilter, little to no mess. I thought the flush bit was visible so that you can see when you've back-flushed enough? Maybe after 2 years, I'll say the same as you, but right now, still learning to get my milk consistent, as espresso is hard to get wrong now. Sage machine this has replaced did great milk without effort, but was massive exercise to get espresso right (should've have got the one with the grinder built-in as have to adjust all day/minute by minute). R58 does everything else that's useful (e.g. warm cups, plumb in, consistent espresso, look gorgeous), but some skill still required, but with grinder combination, espresso has become less of a hobby, and now it's just get my milk skills better. Oh, pre-infusion, just a gentle lift, click might be nice, but not an issue, really. While it works OK with reservoir, just plumb it in with in-line filter for greatest pleasure.
Definitely the preinfusion "click" is a must-have for the next version. Agree with all being said. Cleaning and splashing is a pain in the ass but it is something it comes with this kind of machines. After having for 6months my only complain is that when you have the water reservoir it is not accurate when it runs low on water, meaning, it tells you when there is NO water, instead of warning you when you still have for one or two shots before running dry. Besides that Im 100% happy with my purchase. I recommend it
Ahh, it sounds like the water tank is an issue. I've had no issues with it being plumbed in. Like you I'm very happy with it overall.
The next machine I really dream of getting is a big spring-lever machine from ACS. It’s called the Vesuvius Evo Leva. It has two boilers and 3 PID’s. One PID for each boiler and the third PID in the group. It also has cartridge heaters in the group so the whole machine heats up in about 15 minutes. When you pull a shot you yank down on the big lever to cock the dual springs and at the bottom it starts the rotary pump, giving you preinfusion (which you can customize in the menu). After you let go of the lever the pump shuts off and the springs do all the work, giving you this very smooth and even spring profile (which people on fancy machines like the Decent always try to copy). A beautiful thing about the whole operation is that once you’re finished making coffee you just move the cup out of the way and let the rest slowly drain into the drip tray. There’s no violent release of pressure to splash all over the machine!
yep, not the first one to suggest that. It looks like a big machine though. I'm not sure about lever machines, I'm going hot and cold on them. I'll meditate a bit and maybe things will be clearer.
As for the other stuff you talked about. I have a Lelit MaraX and I found the lever only squeaks a little bit after I do a round of backflushes using Cafiza detergent. Once I start making coffees again the coffee oil tends to lubricate the cam which stops the squeaking and makes it run smooth. My machine has a vibration pump so I don’t have any line-pressure preinfusion to work with and so I don’t have to worry about lifting the knob too far or what have you. I just lift it all the way up to engage the pump and pull it back down to stop. I do get some preinfusion because the group has a flow restriction valve at the top that causes pressure to ramp up slowly over the first 10 seconds but it’s not something I can control.
My lever isn't smooth. It doesn't bring me joy.
@@bartalks1810 Might have to get in there and smooth it out or grease it with Molykote or something.
I imagine the backflush is raised so that it doesn't splash dirty water already in the drip tray all over the place. Even machines that have it a bit more hidden, like the Silvia, have the valve raised up but hidden behind an SS cover.
that sounds sensible. a cover is all it would take - a bit of thought over the design.
The craziest thing about the Evo Leva is that you can set one temperature in the boiler and a different temperature in the group and this lets you do temperature profiling. For some coffees you may want high temperature in the beginning to extract a lot of the good bits and then declining temperature over time to keep down the bitterness. For other coffees you might want the opposite. Who knows! It’s yet another thing to experiment with!
I've been reading about this. I feel like it's a step toward insanity. So, it should be quite popular among us espresso nuts.
You can set the position at which the pump turns on by adjusting the depth of the switch behind the lever. This will allow you in increase or decrease the range of preinfusion.
awesome tip. I'll have a look for that tomorrow.
@@bartalks1810 th-cam.com/video/frkI6ywnCR4/w-d-xo.html
Great stuff! I, personally, would feel very skittish about a plumbed-in machine that shows any sign of leaks whatsoever. I have heard of people going away for a weekend and coming back to a swimming pool in their kitchen. The same story applies to laundry machines and dishwashers, though those are often installed with floor drains nearby to avoid some of the worst issues. If I were to get my own plumbed-in machine at some point in the future I would definitely do some kind of drain underneath it so that the worst a leak can do is run up a large water bill without destroying my house.
no, I should say it's not so much that I even noticed. It was Adrian that noted a bit of scummy water marks. It's only a tiny amount.
Hey mate have you thought about installing a flow control device?
Would love a video on pressure profiling!
yep, definitely crossed my mind a few times, but I keep thinking about sinking costs into it vs the likelihood of getting a new machine at some point.
Lastly, I’ll point out that the spring lever delivers a whopping 11 bars if you just let it go completely. You can back this off very easily to anything from 0-11 bars just by slowing the lever down with your hand. This gives all the control of a fully manual lever machine but it’s much easier to control since you’re subtracting a little bit of pressure off the top rather than having to give all the pressure yourself during the shot. There is of course a pressure gauge right on top of the group so you can see the feedback in real time.
I thought the lever is just to activate the pump..?
@@timzlow It is on e61 machines. But there is a whole category of espresso machines that use levers, either fully manual or assisted by a spring, to generate the pressure to make coffee. Lever machines are much beloved by their owners for the lever profile which is said to produce amazing espresso. Complicated electronic profiling machines like the Decent offer profiles that attempt to replicate the lever profile and these tend to be very popular.
When you talk about water, what are the parameters of your water? In particular pH and TDS.
Can you connect the drip tray to the drain?
The water was tested by Adrian from a local coffee maintenance company. I don’t remember the results but it’s very hard water. We used that to configure a filter from bwt. Yes I could connect the drip tray to my waste pipe, but I didn’t do it.
What would be your next machine besides the Decent under US $4K, Thanks!
See that's a hard question to answer for several reasons, mainly because if it was my *next* machine, I'd probably spend more than that, otherwise the upgrade wouldn't be worth it. There's definitely a diminishing return, but I'd have to say - don't hate me - that I'd look at either getting something that fitted my new planned kitchen design better ( a minimalist kind of white and oak look) or I'd go with something like the Victoria Arduino Eagle One. My previous favourite - the Sanremo YOU has had a massive price hike and is now over $6k which is insane, so that's not in the running any more. I might do a mini video on my favourite machines at the moment.
@@bartalks1810 That is the problem. In that price range there seems nothing that stands out. Thank You!!
What is the water system you installed?
I have a BWT bestmax system. There are a lot to choose from, but luckily I have a friendly coffee maintenance professional who came by and tested the water and then chose this for me.
That's what I always thought. Why can't they make the discharge slightly longer, or or the drip tray cover a little higher so that the discharger is below the cover.
Maybe they're waiting to sell us on the upgrade?
@@bartalks1810 All of them since 1961?
@@timzlow yeah, they're just waiting for the right time. (sorry my humour doesn't always come across in writing)
@@bartalks1810 Maybe they are trying to sell consumers a connecting hose.
@@timzlow so you're saying they want to hose the consumer? I see what you did there.
I have the same drip. Did you ever find the source?
Whos the 'service guy' you referred to with regards to installation and water etc?
His name is Adrian. www.giveitthebeans.co.uk/coffee-beans
I was going to buy this machine now I think I have seconds thoughts seeing the quality control is bad.