The State Of Retro AR15's In 2024 | SA-16 Is A Scam?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Last year I made a guide on how to find retro ar's when they were in short supply. Now that the market has healed and the price of many of these parts have fallen, I decided to revisit this market to see what has changed. I am not selling any firearms or their parts and that is NOT my intention for this video. My intention is to just show people how to save money (especially when certain companies are overcharging)
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1. Your local gun store can be your best friend for finding old retro AR's
2. Police trade in carbines can be found for cheap from various sources
3. Reddit is definitely a cesspool but there is a secondhand market there that is undefeated (parts only no gun sales there)
4. Ebay is a good place to find old weapon lights and retro optics. It can be pricey though as that market is actually getting worse.
5. The hunt is part of the fun. If you're a real autistic cloner, this probably won't help you much. Lots of the legit colt stuff is harder to find.
Something I failed to mention that you should consider is matching M4 Feed Ramp uppers to a M4/Rifle extensions. Google "feed ramps AR15" or something similar to learn more about it. Matching is always best but long story short, "rifle" receivers with M4 barrel extensions work much better than M4 feed ramp uppers with a rifle extensions.
What the sigma!
Here I am with my A2 build that only cost around 800 bucks to get together.
*Gigachad meme*
Same
This is the way
@@mf3087 Based.
@@agent_espo Do you have a D-cord, Esp?
I also built a m4a1 block 1 sopmod for around $900
I built an A2 in 2022 for around 600.
Stripped a2 upper - 115
20" gov profile barrel + everything else for the front end of the upper - 180
rear sight - 60
UPK + charging handle - 20
Stripped lower - 40
LPK - 40
A2 stock - 50
BCG - 90
Yep, 595. You guys can do it, even in this economy. I'm planning a New Vegas service rifle build in the future, so I will be paying about an extra 250 for furniture.
For those of you who are building a service rifle from nv. It's best to use the C7 A1 stripped reciever, the survivalist rifle also is best using that, although you'd have to enlarge the ejection port for that.
I myself am building the survivalist rifle, hanguard bands, arret, and all. Only thing It won't have is a fsb because my 50 beo barrel is in the bull .939 category
@@riclate2013Keep an eye out for the bull barrel FSB's. Rare as hens teeth, but they're out there
“Lots of people don’t shoot their guns, they just argue online about it.” 😂 12:30
r/ar15
Early 723s were built on leftover A1 uppers, so H&R is correct; but I can understand how for 1990s builds it could throw a wrench in your plans.
Yeah you’re right. They way i think of it is H&R’s Gun is a possible variant where as the C7 is unquestionably that 723
@@agent_espo I totally getcha my dude. Ever consider looking in LEO AR15 trade ins? Great way to get some cheap retro rifles.
@@walrusking148 yeah i didnt think of it at the time but I put that in the description. LEO guns can be a steal
The Gordon Carbine from "Black Hawk Down",had an A-1 upper. Well a C-7 upper with the shell deflector.
@@walrusking148where would you find these?
Best up and coming guntuber. Keep the content flowing dude.
Thanks bro
Black Hawk down game awoke a core memory
IRENE IRENE IRENE, being 10 yo playing that game and at the shooting range it comes over the speaker you like oh my things just got real
I still play it occasionally. We used to play it when I was in GWOT in good old team deathmatches
There’s a new one coming out. Delta Force Hawk Ops.
Fixed carry handle ARs are so HOT right now
BKF has a whole new line of retro ARs, and also has a huge selection of retro parts and accessories for retro builders, and all at very reasonable prices! BKF is a veteran owned company in Ohio and nearly everything sold by BKF is proudly made in the USA. Retro builders may want to check them out.
Good to know!
PSA, AIM Surplus, JSE Surplus & Brownells for retro stuff, BCG's and barrels. Ive built several "kinda-look a-like" rifles and none of them was more than $600 completed. AND, it'll take some time, get a build box, make a list of the parts and buy the parts during sales. For me the fun is finding/sourcing the parts on my list (like a scavenger Hunt), completing the parts list and finally the assembly.
I'm putting my A2 together myself. I'm using a Rock River Arms upper and lower receivers. But I also went to my FFL and had him order the Springfield M16A2 and he got it for me at just over $950. I should have it by the end of the month.
Just get an H&R
It's the same price
@@christianwilson5956 and better
Or a Fulton Armory, or a Rock River Armory, or Windham Weaponry, or something else, there's like 10 others I'm forgetting.
Just make one?
@@10mmenjoyer make one?
Just get Palmetto m16 clone with FN barrel.
The only best thing in the retro arms list is that we finally got a Gray C7 (BushMaster and H&R) upper and a H&R having a clone correct M16A2 COTS Lower also in gray and with the correct markings.
Also, H&Rs 723 is based on the early Colt 723. The early 723 had the A1 brass deflector and a pencil barrel.
I do the exact same thing sourcing and pricing parts. Two or three sites up at one time, adding to cart, comparing totals. And getting a completed lower and a completed upper, it's always cheaper than buying the completed rifle. Has something to do with taxes on completed guns.
Hello My fellow AR15 enthusiasts!
The complete ARs are not necessarily a scam. I believe there is an additional 11% tax on a completed gun. Some companies like PSA and Aero offer "build kits" or separate complete uppers and lowers as a workaround to save the consumer some money.
Enjoyed the video…thought provoking. I built my A1-ish near the height of the craze/depth of supply. My ‘itch’ was the rifle I trained on in AF BMT. Ended up finding a Bushmaster C7 lower, and got the ‘then new’ H&R chrome-lined 20” barrel, which has worked out well. My S&W carbine with removable carry handle, CAR-15 stock, and round handguard scratches my carbine itch, although I don’t think it’s a clone of anything in particular.
I bought a PSA 20” A2 style flattop upper for 199 on sale. Stripped PSA lower on sale for 40. An A2 stock kit for I believe 60? PSA lower parts kit for 50? Had a spare bolt carrier, charging handle, and Colt carry handle from my M4gery. All in I’m at less than 500, and at the time of this posting, 06/02/2024, PSA currently has a complete A2 clone rifle for 600, with free shipping.
A2 has a fixed carry handle, it's the A3/A4 that has a flattop
Functionally yours is an A2, but with the detachable carry handle on it, that makes it more of an A4.
Just got done a 10.5 a1 build and kept it strictly budget. Got it done for $700 with a vortex strikefire red dot on it. Building will always be the way to go
Hey man just wanted to say thanks for putting out another banger. I love it man.
Bro, I’m not even in the market for retro rifles and yet I just watched your whole video. Send help.
I like the H&R M16A2 with the Hammer Forged FN Barrel. I handled one in a gun shop and it seems well made.
I was able to put mine together for just over $400. I had parts I had picked up over the years with the intent of putting together a clone of what I was issued in the Army in 1987, when I got a brand new Colt M16A2 and had to turn in my old Hydramatic M16A1.
Been wanting to put together an A1 clone, but those parts are pretty pricey now. I can't believe I was complaining when they were charging $300 for Colt A1 parts kits. Should've, could've, didn't buy one back then.
I just bought Delta Force Black Hawk Down again on Good Old Games and was playing. Good times. I remember playing that a lot when I was younger. Appreciate the information.
great video Agent Espo! When I built my retro's I remember watching the ar15 forums for posts by mike from PSA. When they were on sale they would literally sell out in minutes. I missed the first drop but got in on the next few. Legit I could have waited and saved myself so much stress and effort hunting these parts down. I remember seeing posts about ppl paying up to 500 bucks for A2 uppers. I just scored a NDS A1 on Gafs for 50 bucks lol. Times are changed and I dont mind.
A ton of 723s had A1 uppers. Just look at the gothic serpent photos closely. 50% don’t have brass deflectors
Nice video! I think its also worth noting that complete guns have an excise tax on them which makes them a bit more expensive. Psa often passes that savings onto you when you buy the parts separately from them
The rule of building retro clones: Quality, Speed, Price. Choose any two.
If you want to build a quality clone, and wish to do it for as little cost as possible...be prepared to spend the TIME necessary to find good quality parts at low (relatively) prices.
My A2 clone began with a Colt stripped upper I found at an estate sale for $75. I added a PSA M16A2 stripped lower (with "government" and safe/semi/burst marks) which I bought when they were on sale for $49. I took me more than a year to collect all the parts. Total cost was under $700.
While looking for the A2 parts, I came across good deals on various quality parts for an M4A1 build...so I started working on that. Still a work in progress. I have a PSA M4A1 marked stripped lower I bought on sale for $39!
BTW, H&R and PSA are made by the same forge and finished by PSA. They are identical except for the markings. PSA lowers and uppers cost considerably less than H&R for the same quality. H&R offers some different finishes if that matters to you, then you won't mind paying the extra cost
Oops, my error on my last post…the entire receiver was Bushmaster C7, not just the lower!
I put a Ar15A4 together for a little under 400$
Yoo how?
You can often buy a complete H&R upper from PSA and lower, either from PSA or another vendor, for a complete retro build for 8-900
Yes
Built an a2 upper 18.5 in ar for around 600 dollars by looking at local pawn shops. And shopping on psa. Psa is solid.
Time is the critical part in keeping the cost low on any build but especially for an XM-177E2 like I recently assembled. There’s some good 11.5” lightweight barrels on Brownell’s and I picked one up during a recent sale for around $199. I picked up a new C7 upper for $45 at a local gun shop which got me rolling. Finding a good chrome BCG at a good price was a challenge and I got one for $100. There’s plenty of boron BCG’s out there but it’s not the same in my book. One could use a chrome bolt and phosphate bolt since they mixed them until chromed parts supply was exhausted.
I got lucky and was given a 69' colt m16a1 20", only retro rifle I own and I love it. Would love to make a car 15 type clone but.... I just cant justify the price for a clone.
If you’re paying 1k or more for an AR you’re paying too much for the most common rifle in the country made by nearly every manufacturer.
From my understanding, what I've been told is when they sale you a complete rifle a complete rifle tax is added to the price but buying a separate lower and upper gets around that tax. I never really research it , I'm not 100% sure if thats accurate. It's not a scam as much as it's a hidden tax.
Early 723 had a1 receivers but if you want the c7 its in gray anno but will still have the 14.7 pencil barrel
I bought a Fulton Armory A2 in 2021 I love it.
FA is the truth. Grabbed one of their NM HBAR barrels, it's a hammer.
Fulton Armory do be one of the gems of Retro-ish AR's.
Have you ever heard of the line mount? That sells retro A.R. parts way cheaper than ps
Fence-free lowers are still hard to come by.
Bought an early 2000's bushmaster a2 for $600. Was a police trade in, wish I bought 2. Built it into a blackhawk down clone/copy with a 12.5 DD barrel and an OCM5. Felt sacrilegious swapping the barrels out but it was a crappy heavy barrel with a weird balance in the first place.
You’ve given it new life
I dig your channel. Thanks for putting out great videos. If you're ever in California, i'd be down to collaborate
A1 uppers are clone correct for early 723s same as pencil barrel
I just watched MAC video on the Springfield A2 and the delta ring springs and hand guard’s are trash,they rattle pop off and delta ring would not stay in tension right.
Awesome vid man, also building myself a poors A2. Ended up using a Rock River Arms A2 assembled upper I got on sale from AR15discount, and an entire barrel assembly from Del-Ton for 193 tacos, and they gave me a specific A2 FSB when I emailed them asking for one. Went with the PSA M16A2 lower, and a basic A2 parts kit. All in all, I'm in about six fifty? But thats not including the Young Mfg BCG with their HMB bolt, which gets it closer to 830-ish. Not clone correct, but close enough for my income, lol.
There are certainly ways you can save money instead of paying full price for a complete rifle if your own a budget and want to go the retro route. Took me a bit to put an A1 and A2 setup together. Same with an A4 build.
I have a BCM C8 Upper. While not completely the same, it's as close to the look as I'll get. I got the retro carbine PSA hand guards and the rounder front sight post. They are better improvements than the cheaper CAR hand guards I have on there. The Front Sight Post is more fine and easier to shoot with.
I was able to get both the M16A1 complete lower and 604 airforce complete upper for $1087 after taxes and fees.
The standard PSA bolt carriers are milspec (most of the time) the best is fully chromed with a parkerised extractor (if the chrome is good) apart from that just get the standard parked may need to upgrade the spring. The chrome inside is good. Nitride is a waste of time so are all the other fancy finishes.
It would be nice if PSAs premium line came with different FNCHF CL barrels with different profiles and twist rate like 1/8 or 1/9.
The 20" PSA premium is a great kind of do it all as in it looks retro but it has solid performance and you can kit it out as a duty rifle.
I managed to score a nice FN CHF CL 18" 1/8 with a hybrid barel profile for 150.
Never had a problem with PSA uppers and parts as long as you gonwith fn barrels and standard carriers. The only thing you may have to do is upgrade the extractor spring and maybe change out the ejector if it's not beveled.
I sniped a bushmaster a2 16" 1/9 heavy barrel complete gun shiny handguards commercial tube though with a surefire 6p and a Daniel Defense buffer tube qd sling mount with one point sling out the door 600 off gunbroker scratched alot of itches along with the block one and a4 I made with the ras handgaurds. all the itches scratched.
“Jesus I see what you do for others…”
That’s sweet man. Sometimes patience and a little hunting goes a long way
@@agent_espo The block one and a4 are aero and the handguards are P&S but as wise man once said you'll never be clone correct unless you have the fun safety setting.
I got a bushmaster xm15-e2s from my grandpa with the heavy barrel fixed upper, car stock, old roll mark, C7 upper, all that stuff. When he first gave it to me I appreciated it, but now it's very in fashion with all the retro revival😁
I soon want to build a retro build, but I’m not exactly sure which one I want to build there are a lot of variations and I don’t know them all. Is there a good resource where I can go through and see what models were used when and for what to get an idea of what I wanna build?
The gray xm16e1 lower I just ordered is definitely one of my most impulsive and frivolous purchases. I try to stay a bit more regimented in working through my master list of what I want.
I bought a tourqe wrench, armourers tool, upper receiver vice block some punches and O ring pliers that's what you need to get started. I want to learn how to install fsb myself because non F marked barrels are more expensive these days
I built an A2 clone back in 2020 and it only cost maybe $700-800. I miss those days
You threw IvanDrago under the bus. That Dixie Kaiser C7 has been on there forever. I've sold several C7s that are DKs on here and mine are complete, just like his, Preban and half the price. You really want retro stuff, just ask. I'm clearing out a collector's estate and have not retro but actual stuff from Vietnam forward
For me, my retro AR was built from cannibalizing another AR's barrel to fit the fixed carry handle upper so for me, the overall cost of parts includes a rifle that was fully functional so probably 800 ish not including the big ole red dot on top of carry handle
Got all ordered for my battlefield 3 A3 bkf for the win
@@ninjascout468 i like those guys
Buying/building a retro AR is cool and all, just don't be stupid about it. It's just not worth paying a premium for yesterday's technology.
I saw a Springfield armory A2 rifle for $1,150. I haven’t sourced all my parts yet but I’m certain you can build one for half that or maybe just slightly more.
You have absolutely no bad videos.
Thanks king 👑
All that work to end up with a non H&R stamped lower and save $100. If you're worried about saving $100 at the sacrifice of non clone correct/stamped parts, dont waste your money on retro guns.
So the Springfield A2 is stupid expensive, but would it be worth it if it was on-sale for like… $800-$850? Even piecing together new H&R parts is close to 1k
Just completed a Vietnam style CAR-15. Some parts took a year to get. A lot of Brownells and original parts.
How difficult would it be to recreate the Colt LMG? (Minus the funky handguard though)
@@LordKarnage12345 very expensive. Ive seen stripped upper receivers for that going for $800 alone. Wait until H&R produces theirs, they had one at shot this year (it was a prototype)
Red Right Hand LLC has 7 Colt LMG uppers right now in stock
Getting any sort Springfield AR is odd in of itself. There's nothing that sets them apart enough to justify an AR from them.
Uncle Larry is gonna give you a whoopin' for mocking him..........
Yup this is the video I’m looking for
Just snagged a 16in mid length A2 Carryhandle upper, gonna build a "what if" beater carbine
The PSA dissy? I just got mine.
Remember people. A2 needs a good 20 round straight magazine. I miss my real A2 from the Corps. I scratch my itch with the Bushmaster National Match. Close enough for me. B
We didn't have 20 round mags when I was in the Army in the 80's and we first got the A2. The 30 round aluminum mag was all anyone had.
BKF firearms has also released a retro A2 line, so you get it done cheaper
there's a good 8 minute video in there somewhere.
Big if true! Thanks for the comment
I bought an m16a1 parts kit from apex in 2018 for $400 and it came with everything besides the lower and barrel. I bought a m16a1 profile barrel from faxon and at the time got an $50 aero lower as a place holder. A few years later I bought a blem h&r m16a1 lower and I have a total of $700. That build is probably closer to $1500 now. But I don't consider it a clone. Its a legit m16a1 without the fun switch.
i bought a h&r 723 upper off psa a while ago and assembled and after a while i realized it was an a1 upper receiver was and not the c7. I was kinda disappointed but i may buy the c7 upper receiver put it on my 723 clone and take the a1 upper receiver and put it on my a4 clone.
I’ll be damned. You put down the stupid Mike and it still works. Amazing.
Who is Mike
Awesome!! Just subscribed
I’m still trying to find the forgrip you used on your bf3 M16A4. Feel free to do an update with that one!
The one I used to prop the rifle up was a Grip Pod, i do also have a P&S broomhandle
@@agent_espoI’m an idiot… I meant the hand guard. Whatever the quad rail you used for it
Yeah, don't bother with Springfield, just do an H&R and part it out. $1200 is fucking ridiculous, hell $1000 is ridiculous
Larry Vickers said i could keep whatever i wanted a few years back....like he knew something was gonna happen 🤔
Did you know him personally or is this a meme
@@agent_espo meme. Sorry for misleading you
I've seen m16a1 Parts kits for like 700 bucks
To be fair, a PSA of the same type of rifle (COMPLETE) is roughly the same price. Is it a fair price? That really depends on you. Not trying to defend companies but you have to think how the tooling to make fixed carry handles pretty much went away when the world switched to flat tops and so far only PSA is really coming out with fixed front sight post guns for the cheap.
It is kinda odd that separately the upper and lower costs much less than a completed version.
Probably has to do with taxes on completed guns or something as opposed to just offering parts.
And they are the same price, but at least the H&R guns offer better value by having the absolutely correct markings, whereas Bushmaster has markings just like their OG A2's. Springfield Armory isn't worth the price imo.
Anyone remember Troy's replicas they made? Good times
Lads, Anderson manufacturing has a M16A4 for less than 1k. Just get that and change out parts
It's not a scam
M16a4 with carry handle sight used for $600 out the door....
I made my a2/a4 replica for less than $400 and it shoots fantastic. I utilized a lot of coupons.
Nice
KAK makes a retro barrel to complete the H&R build
Good video, bad Larry Vickers impression lol
I plan on getting a A2 clone in 20" with bayonet. Id be suspicious too on PSA for thier small caliber Aks and ar's hence m26 lemon grenades channel, pissing psa off lol
Solid video👍🏿
Heads up. Bowman arms has m16a1 kits for sale
All of H&R barrels are crome lined
Buy high, sell for a loss. ❤
The way of the autist. 🙌
All day
Who even makes retro parts? I’ve been wanting to make a Car15 clone for years but nobody makes uppers
With how the economy is 1200 isn't bad. If the economy gets better and the price stays up that's when it's a rip off.
Imagine paying $1200 for the most vanilla basic bitch A2 rifle instead of just building an upper
Ok but hear me out….I don’t have a desire at all to own any psa products.
Thank god H&R came through with their retro line. Even here in commiefornia im enjoying my A2 and A1s clones
Wyndham actually is back up and running.
Really?
Based and real