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Always feel like obsidian really understand great narrative but never get good timelines to complete the games hence the mechanics suffer but then they try to sweep their games quietly out of jealousy only to find the obsidian ones become cult classics to really popular later on. New vegas was same thing with bethesda for fallout
It breaks my heart to see them take characters that we, the players, established and defined for ourselves in the KotOR games and render it all completely pointless by creating these “canonized” versions of them.
"I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you. I would have let the galaxy die. You are more rare than you know, and what you have taught yourself must not be allowed to die." -Kreia to the Exile What a waste of a compelling character.
As much as I despise SWTOR for many reasons, it's handling of KOTOR plot points is not one of them. I regard it as entirely separate from KOTOR2 as it is Bioware and not Obsidian. Of course they were going to shitcan any plot that was not created for their own KOTOR game. Especially after being acquired by EA who are not known for their sportsmanlike behaviour. It's sad though because Obsidian at least had the good manners to preserve KOTOR 1 story in KOTOR 2 without arbitrarily killing off characters from it.
Meetra defeats 3 sith lords. I haven't played TOR, but it annoyed me in Revan how she was treated as insignificant. She was, legit, one of the most powerful people in the galaxy at that point.
she was certainly powerful, but she was uniquely suited to fighting nihilus and managed to defeat sion by making him loose faith in what he believed in, which was keeping him alive, although if he would die like a normal sith, she would have defeated him the normal way too. She did then go on to defeat Kreia fair and square, so that's definitely a win
@@kylescoolclips As I recall, Kreia’s ultimate plan wasn’t to kill the Exile. She wanted to use the Exile as a conduit to destroy the Force itself. But when that failed, Kreia just sent the Exile on her way to find Revan and defeat the Sith Empire
@@kylescoolclips Kreia says it herself. The exile is very dear to her and she would give her life for her. She would never kill her. The only reason she went to Malachor and let her take on the sith apprentices and Darth Sion was because she knew she could handle them. Kreia sees in Meetra what she could not do, the death of the force, and she firmly believed thay she was the key to that end. Then TOR came and threw all that out the window, but that's a different discussion.
I agree! Also, it added more meaning to Darth Malak's line when he said "Savior, conqueror, hero, villian. You are all of these things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone".
I played 2 first cuz of how I came into getting an Xbox, so the twist blew my fucking mind extra hard when I played and learned it. I prolly should’ve seen it coming long in advance, but I was invested in the experience too much lol.
agreed without KOTOR 2 revan isn't really the iconic mysterious and significant character he is. Without the exile's story and exposition from KOTOR 2 revan is just a projection of the PC
There was already a significant amount of that in KOTOR 1 for those that looked for it. Juhani was saved by Revan, this was how she ended up on Dantooine in the first place.
THIS is why we needed KOTOR III, so we could have properly finished the story laid out by KOTOR 1 and 2 and got to see the absolute awesomeness Obsidian had in store for us with their version of the Unknown Regions Sith Order.
@@testilande9116 I'd love for them to do so. If haven't look up what they were planning to do. Basically your character would go into the unknown regions and learn about the ancient sith. There's some other stuff they said, but I mean that kinda sums up how freakin awesome that would have been.
@@PallahDaOracle I also hope we would get to play as Revan during the mandalorian war and also when he was a sith before his fight with bastila. But hmmm, if Obsidian ever makes the game then the downside would be that it woudnt come to playstation...
Glad someone finally said it. KOTOR 2 was one of the best and most unique Star wars stories ever. And the fact that TOR ignored this really took away from the game.
KOTOR 2 was dark, mysterious, deep, thoughtful. It added SO much to the first game and really completed it. Revan steals the show in KOTOR 2 while not even making an appearance, that's great story-telling.
KOTOR 2 is a not story that can exist alongside the more simple, cheery, and upbeat Star Wars the franchise has become. I doubt we will ever see another Star Wars work that explores those themes again
@@HierophanticRose I am pretty sure Mandalorian does in fact touch on some of the subjects though? Not nearly as deeply, but it is definitely far from cheery cheery.
Bastilla was and is always going to be a great Star Wars character I do still like KOTOR 2 a lot although story wise it doesn’t compare to the original KOTOR but Bastilla is amazing and miss Her as a character in KOTOR. Revan is the strongest but Bastilla is if not next close to the strongest of any Jedi and Sith Revan is always the most powerful but even more than that is the coolest most COMPLEX character mainly because he was never fully Sith OR Jedi some of the things he had done were to prevent a greater evil some things he did for himself too and there was NOT and never will be a character as strong or as cool as Darth Revan or Jedi Revan when he was a Jedi or a Sith none not even Sidious would have survived the battle. Malak and Sidious were both week Sidious killing Plaugus in his sleep Malak attacking his master from afar and yeah Bastilla saved his life but was still so strong and only by cowardice could someone ever defeat him and no one really stood a chance besides the will of the force (what Kreia hates) is what kept Revan alive so he was still strong enough to survive regardless that Bastilla saved him it was the will of the force.
What was ambitious about it other than Rian Johnson-ing the classic Star Wars story? The entire game was basically reused assets from from the first game with some slight improvements to the menus, combat, and UI. BioWare did the heavy lifting of actually creating the game from scratch. I love Obsidian as an RPG developer, but their most successful games are reskins of previous games by other developers.
@@headbangerdnb KOTOR 2 wasn't about subverting expectations. It was simply a different look at the Star Wars universe. Also, it wasn't something new to the EU. Bioware did do the heavy lifting, yes. But they also took years to make KOTOR 1. Also, they didn't build the engine itself from scratch. Honestly, they didn't do a whole lot of anything. I've seen larger, and better Star Wars universes put together by fans, using the engine's predecessor. Odyssey, the engine that KOTOR 1 and 2 use, is the Aurora engine with very small modifications. It is why it is so easy to take things from KOTOR 1 and 2, and put them into Neverwinter Nights. A game Bioware made before KOTOR 1, that was made with the D20 system (AKA D&D, dice and stuff like that,) and put them straight into Neverwinter Nights. The largest updates are mostly the graphics engine, and it is only minor tweaks. The character models and what not, actually still run in Neverwinter Nights, for example. At least the heads. The skeleton NWN uses prevents the bodies from being used. Really, all things considered, Bioware didn't actually have to do a whole lot more than Obsidian did. The major difference is Obsidian had far less time to do so. Whether one thinks the story was better or not, is purely opinion. But mechanically, and in regards to the UI and what not, it is objectively better for sure. Also, as far as the look of gear goes, there is more than twice the number of assets than KOTOR 1 had as well. The fact that KOTOR 2 re-uses many assets is to be expected, considering the stories are tied together. But there were A LOT of new assets as well.
They cannot keep them out! SWTOR is completely and absolutely a sequel to KOTOR I and II and basically introduces the overarching villain of the entire Old Republic franchise: Darth Vitiate. The existence of the Sith Emperor is itself simply a revelation that explains what happened to Revan in the Unknown Regions and how the Mandalorian Wars were simply a test orchestrated by the Emperor. Basically, everyone and everything terrible that happened 3960BBY - 3950BBY, Mandalorians, Revan and Malak, and the Purge, was orchestrated by The Immortal Emperor. Everything and everyone was the puppet of the Emperor. It was planned from the start. They could have made the Exile's death better, but KOTOR I and II were tragedies from the start.
I liked Star Wars as a medium before i played KOTOR 2 when it came out, but that game made me fall in love with the universe to the point where it's seeped into my very personality. KOTOR 2 is a masterpiece and it's a damn shame that it released in an unfinished state.
Absolutely the same. I remember picking up the game as a kid, thinking it was some sort of battle arena game. Turned out to be my favourite piece of entertainment ever.
I actually played KOTOR 2 first. My computer at the time had a newer version of windows and wouldn't run KOTOR 1. I bought the 2nd one because of how much everyone had raved about KOTOR 1, and absolutely loved it. Lol, after that I bought an xbox and KOTOR 1 just to play that game 🤣 Of course I really liked it as well, but always felt more attached to KOTOR 2.
Even without the establishment of Revan's character, Exile herself was mistreated as hell. She was capable of forming Force bonds more easily and powerfully, while affected by it more significantly. She had been taught by the person who questions The Force so much that decides to kill it to free the galaxy. She fought against the Sith Lords that no Jedi had faced- pure evil, driven by pure and basic desire, so powerful and dangerous that manipulates others easily, never dies or consumes a hall planet. She brought the Jedi Order from the brink of destruction(and subtley the galaxy) and rebulit it while trying to fix the flaw of the old. She deserved better.
Absolutely. Revan and Meetra are so important to the history of the galaxy and the Jedi order Both of them saved the galaxy. I’ll admit I first liked the novel of Revan because I was just so happy to be reading about it. And for the most part it was good. And then those last few fucking pages broke my heart
Even the Revan novel did her no justice by keeping secret what made her a powerful Jedi in her own right compared to Revan. On top of that, the novel said that Darth Traya's goal was to destroy the Republic and you and I both know that it is the Force itself she wanted to kill.
@@Ghost-ql3hl I respect the Revan novel for tying up the loose ends between KOTOR, KOTOR 2 and SWTOR, and I enjoy playing SWTOR, but one thing I don't understand about the Revan novel is how inconsistent the power of Revan's Force abilities are when he gets his memories back as Darth Revan and his light side and dark side personas synchronize. He is able to destroy Darth Nyriss with absolute ease, but is no match for Vitiate, and in SWTOR, he was defeated by Sith Empire players in The Foundry flashpoint mission which caused his light side persona to become a Force ghost and the dark side persona stayed in his body refusing to die up until the Shadow of Revan expansion, and the Jedi Knight protagonist ended up being the one to defeat Vitiate. I mean, come on! How can a strong but basic Jedi only known for saving Tython from being obliterated succeed where Revan failed???
@@LightStreak567 I guess you played only the Jedi Sentinel, and that is why you think you killed Vitiate, the sentinel only killed a disposable body for the emperor, same as in the sith warrior storyline, you kill another one... Vitiate are litteraly in all of the royal guards on in his citadel, and organisation, all domminated/posessed by him into a hive-mind. The one the sentinel killes in the story is just one of the mor used bodys Vitiate uses throu-out the swtor lore. If we want to go into semantics, it was part of Vitiate's plan to have the sentinel dispose of that body, so he could go full focus on the eternal empire. Then again, swtor power scaling CANNOT make sence since the player character is involved in a multiplayer setting
Honestly, I couldn't agree more. Meetra is probably my favorite character in star wars and Idk if anyone here ever watched spacedock but he said something I've always felt. Kotor 2 is kinda better than the franchise its apart of. Not that deconstructions are going off the beaten path stories are always better than the heroes journey foundational types, its just that kotor 2 really shaped for me what the force actually was and the characters' connections to it in a way nothing else ever did, and Meetra is obviously at the center of that. Super agree that they tossed her aside for TOR. When i felt kotor 2 was pushing her on a trajectory for a more satisfying story than just she dies.
It's as if you reached into my brain. Yes, absolutely. Meetra becomes a sidekick, every other KOTOR 2 character becomes forgotten and the entire KOTOR 2 story is quietly brushed aside. When you read the Revan book, it's very obvious that Drew Karpyshyn never played KOTOR 2 and was only working on cliffnotes. He simply didn't care, perhaps because KOTOR 2 was made by a different studio and by different writers. That same attitude permeated SWTOR and the story (Revan's story) suffered as a result. The rub is that you are entirely right about the dual protagonist thing. Revan and Meetra are both wonderful characters in their own right, but if thrown at each other properly (romantically or otherwise), they become something extraordinary. Or rather, they would have become something extraordinary. It's an incredible waste.
It frustrates me so much.. Revan & The Exile could have had an dual protagonist relationship & legacy on the same level as Anakin & Obi-Wan in the Clone Wars.
I ignore SWTOR's story in my head canon, because it destroys what made KOTOR I and II special to me. I don't like Revan being some god-tier overpowered gary stu, I always thought of him as a decently-powerful Sith/Jedi whose strength was his strategic and tactical mind. He always strikes me as the Julius Caesar of the Star Wars universe, he managed to convince his troops to march with him against their own people. To replace the Republic with something he believed would be stronger, to ensure its survival. They ruined it by going hurr durr sith emperor influenced him. Meetra Surik, I see, as someone having suffered for Revan's glory. Her actions during the Mandalorian wars haunt her. She sought out the council to punish herself for what she felt she did wrong, and took their judgement even though it would not bring her peace. She is, in my opinion, a far more capable combatant than Revan (Hell even the game mechanics confirm this with the level cap difference between K1 and K2), a powerful Jedi made even more so by the nature of being a wound in the force. She was one of Revan's top generals, and fought alongside him through hell with an entrenched and unwavering enemy. They are both very interesting characters to me, and I despise how SWTOR simply brushed them aside like they were nothing. KREIA is the real victim though. She isn't even so much as fucking mentioned in SWTOR, even though she trained Revan, and the Exile. Kreia is my favorite character in all of Star Wars, I adore her philosophy on the force, and it is such a unique perspective in the Star Wars universe that they simply ignore. Though maybe I should be grateful that they ignored it, instead of ruining it like they did Meetra.
@@100StarWars Was he? No, he was only chasing single goal of making money on Darth Revan that kids loved that much. Those kids just didn't understand Kotor 2, for them the game happened to be too much deep. And let me share one dirty little secret... nobody pushed the devs to release till Christmas. The real reason is that they were arguing about the story. Some of them as did Drew felt that Revan might bring money and the others were trying to tell true Kotor story with its true protagonist which is no Revan and no Exile. They were fighting about that and since the publisher supported the moneymakers group, the other group just refused to work. That was the reason why they cut the game and actually threw it away as a junk. They knew that Star Wars fans were kids and they did not need such stories, they needed only Revan. But still you may find it, if you would look for it, true Kotor story they were telling you. Thanks for the vid.
@@SherlockHolmes000 Well, actually Kotor 2 devs didn't plan on making the sequel. From the beginning it was Kreia that stood behind the mandalorians attacks to the Outer Rim. Revan was a true Jedi that went to war to protect others ("Jedi don't really serve The Republc", The Exile. That was not about The Republic but the people alone). Then during the wars Revan realized the she was being tricked and that The Council was right about that threat hidden (let us trust the game's canon above all; Atton considers Revan to be a woman by default). Finding Trayus Academy on Malachor Revan believed that threat to be of Sith origin. So she diceded to pretend a Dark Lord. That was the sacrifice Kreia was telling about. Revan kidnapped and converted as many Jedi (and even soldiers that were force sensitive) as she could to place them under her rule only (to save them in a way). Waging war agaisnt The Republic and Jedi Order Revan thought that those "Siths" must reveal themselves, unmask their presense and true identity to aid destroying the Jedi. But that was a mistake for they were no "Sith" and "Sith is a belief... and there is no Sith Empires", Kreia. Then the Jedi Order interrupted Revan's tactic by taking her in custody. The Order committed a crime with her mind, having it broken. That was desperate act that showed their true nature, their corruption. They made Revan to be their pawn. Revan finds the Star Forge, defeats Malak and then remembers of that threat, remembers of Darth Nihilus spawned by the deaths at Malachor. Since Revan is a woman, Bastila dies, so the Council cannot locate Revan through her. Revan makes some preparations (instructions for Carth and Canderous and maybe manufacturing GOTO before that) and returns to Malachor to her first Master and there she REFUSES to pursue Kreia's goals. Kreia would never tell you what she did to Revan since Revan became a symbol of redemption and hope, people needed Revan considered alive and still fighting. Meanwhile Jedi Order collapses and going mad. They desperately obsessed with what stood behind the Mandolorians, they go to Katar to do rituals that could let them see through the Force and locate that "threat". The images of the Exile and Malachor V were visioned to them. So the remnants of Jedi Order as well as Kreia decide to use The Exile as a beacon to hunt each other. I don't even start to talk about the Exile. Just a few facts. Male (he went to war choosing Revan as his Master instead of Atris which was going to take him as her first Padawan), a warrior and not really strong Force User (Vrook says: ..."mediocre Jedi...", Wandar says: "... average student of the Force..."), not relying on The Force ("There is greatness in you, yet it stems not from The Force, it stems from who you are", Visas) and "a natural leader" as Wandar claims him to be. I could debate on the subject of his connection to The Force. Vrook, the only Jedi Master we can trust in the ways of The Force, says "I feel nothing"... so maybe The Exile do not really reestablish his connection but using the Force through Kreia. The most interesting lies ahead... play the game with care and you will find it.
while partialy yes, most of what the revan novel does, is the same as kotor2 did with revan in 1, just a way worse job. In the book, we are not folowing the exile we play in kotor 2. we are folowing what will become the exile, and then it goes off rails with her character. we hear alot of her from before kotor 1, while in the war, the problem is after that, they have the story sett in the direction of revan being on drummond kas, and here is where everything becomes meh. Her character upp till that point is mostly just average storytelling, but the beginning was still strong with the retelling of the war.
I enjoyed my time in TOR, but the way that Bioware treated the Exile in that game was absolutely disgraceful. I strongly got the impression that Bioware were jealous that Obsidian created such a great character, companions and story, and this is why they did what they did.
found that obsidian fan. Bethesda was jealous, Bioware was jealous, what's next? Microsoft is jealous? stop making up drama that doesn't exist in the first place.
The ONLY thing I disagree with in this video is the decision to make Vitiate the reason for Revan's fall being less important than it actually is. It's a significant alteration and it really undermines Revan's agency and the impact of his sacrifice. It's the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. Revan chose his path to make the Republic stronger, to prepare. Forcing him into that role takes away from that. Otherwise really enjoyed the video, would love a more detailed one. KotOR 2 really doesnt get the recognition it deserves, especially being the basis for Revan as we know him and as how he is interpreted by fans, especially avid fans, of his character. Subbed
It was chris avellones design for exiles part in all the conflicts that they had taken part in for to have been overshadowed and forgotten by history thus cannon would have been that they could have either been male or female, in essence just a forgotten sacrifice in endless wars that galaxy continues to endure due to forces existance and of course kreias hope that galaxy could rid itself of force to also have died whit exiles memory. The meetra surik cannon actually came from outside kotor 2 design team and considering how they dragged the charachter trough the mud in revan novel and swtor, personally i prefer original intent. Also as avellone was laying ground work for kotor 3 that would have had the plot that galaxy is actually much larger than republic lets the public know, as if galaxy would know that the galaxy they know is mearly around one tenth of the whole would lead to expansion and whit jedi being their primary way of policing galaxy and jedi of course being unsuited to solve the political, economic, Imegration and population control disasters that they are usually called to solve, thus senate at some point decidead to encourage the dogma that the known galaxy is the whole galaxy, as adding more planets to the republic would only fracture republic further. Of course what would have dominated the rest of the galaxy was supposed to be the expansionist sith empire ruled by council of sith that in their lifetimes had achived sith ideal of godhood, each in their own way. Revan would have met this empire of gods when hunting for the reson that sparked mandalorian neo crusades, forgotten it due to jedi council brainwashing, but regained enogh of his memory after kotor 1 and left to confront this threath. Apperantly revan would have been willing to destroy this threath at any cost and when exile would reach him they would have become crucial to revans plans. Story was supposed to explore the sith as deeply as kotor 2 explored the failings of the jedi, also it was supposed to bring to conclusion what avellone started whit kreia character and the idea that the force is a antaganistic force in the galaxy. Ending fight would have been at the end of the galaxy optional against revan, if player had chosen that the exile had sacrificed enogh and allowed exile to return to galaxy to start a life of peace in assumable galaxy where force had been killed of in revans schemes. Its honestly a shame that we got mmo i insteed.
Kotor 2 was the first one I played, so when I played the first one the twist actually blew me away. Having the context of the mandalorian wars, revenge, etc. it made this series one of my all time favorites
It’s also interesting how the Jedi council is so forgiving, even welcoming you might say- of Revan, even if only using him towards their own ends; While the exile is outright condemned and endlessly judged for simply doing what she thought was right and following Revan to take the fight to the Mandalorians.
I agree that the problem with SWTOR is that Meetra Surrik becomes barely an afterthought...which does as you've said, bastardized The Jedi exile when she did so much for th ed galaxy in her own right in her Heroine 's Journey.
@@nuancedhistory yes, though the Revan Novel itself (a tie in to the game) was developed by the developers of Star Wars The Old Republic. Still the same issue
@@darththeo absolutely. So they treated her as a character that wasn't there creation, so an afterthought with the main emphasis on their previous work of KOTOR .
KOTOR 2 cemented Revan's legacy and brilliance in the era of the Old Republic. While the first game may have made him, KOTOR 2 defined who he truly was. A long with creating one of the best character's ever written in SW history, Kreia. The relationship between Kreia and The Exile is on another level. So many little nuances and lessons to learn, not just in the game but perhaps in real life too. The fact that somebody so broken in The Exile could come and help so many around her find purpose & better their lives absolutely touched me. That their is redemption for our actions, that the right man in the wrong places can make all the difference, that seeing absolute power and shunning it was TRUE power... My respect for the character of The Exile was elevated beyond anything else in the SW universe. I can honestly say that my life & the person I am today was greatly shaped by this ''Masterpiece'' & it's one I shall never, ever forget.
The sith empire in kotor 2 seemed like such an enigmatic and mysterious entity powerful beyond our belief and anything that's come before The hype was unreal I miss kotor and I wish they made a third
no it didn't lol, its completly opposite the sith in KOTOR seem like pure evil fools that are barely existing and then you finish them off as the exile, SWTOR has THE Sith Empire a massive benemoth spanning across thousand worlds and usually defeating the republic and everything else.
@@ericpaunovic3579 dude, that's what they were saying, the Sith Empire (the one that Revan left in search of) was enigmatic and mysterious in TSL. The Sith Empire in TOR was a joke. It's really surprising it managed to take over most of the known galaxy.
Tbf that mystery is what makes it so great. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect (which they definitely stole from kotor 2) where they were so intriguing in the 1st and even the 2nd installment, but once they arrived in ME3 they quickly became generic and you were destroying them planet after planet. Sometimes you should keep the mystery all powerful bad guys, the all powerful mysterious bad guys
@@aamirrazak3467 Yeah I think so too. As much as I love Revan, Meetra was the reason for his character to become so interesting, not just in context of how he was written but in lore too. Without her there would be no Malachor V and without Malachor V there would be no great and horrible tragedy that defined Revan as a Villain, no creation of Darth Nihilus and no heart wretching character action that forever haunted the jedi exile Without Meetra Surik there would be no story like Kotor 2 and I don't know about you, but there was never a more personal story in star wars ever told like this one. Darth Revan may have been a great character, but he would not be what he is without Kreia or Meetra. To toss her aside as a plot device to defeat the emperor is extremely poor choice and honestly doesn't thematically line up with what Kotor 2 could have brought us if we had got Kotor 3 instead of Swtor
@@Funinightmare I agree 100% I’d have much rather gotten KOTOR 3 than SWTOR I wanted to see Revan and the exile team up to defeat the true Sith as Avellone described them (not vitiate). It was a waste of her character, her awesome story and lore from KOTOR 2 and a terrible way to end things. Without KOTOR 2 and it’s events and story, specifically that of the Exile, Revan is not nearly as legendary or mythic a figure
Kotor 2 is literally my favorite Star Wars story and has some of my favorite characters. Also, I 100% agree that Kotor 2 actually fleshes out the story of Revan and him as a character.
In Kotor 1, you see Revan as the one who changes everything around him/her. In Kotor 2, he is like a legendary... legend. The Exile becomes the hero/villain who changes everything around him/her (I do not care about their sexuality/genders for this discussion). It would have been lovely to have a Kotor 3 where you see the Exile having the same impact/image, like how Revan had in Kotor 1. Yes, they are different, but the Exile has his/her own struggles and achievements. I hate the Revan novel. It butchered the awesomeness established in Kotor 2. As for SWTOR, I wish it was singleplayer. The stories and quests there are brilliant, but I want to play them without a jackass messing my gameplay. Maybe the Emperor and Revan plots in SWTOR are something I could have lived without in my life. I also did not like how they treated the Exile in SWTOR. Revan created bonds that lasted many years, and so did the Exile by the end of Kotor 2.
@@FuryanJedi13 If The Exile were female we would need male Atris then. We just can't loose Atris as a character! She's too important for the story. It's Revan who is female. That the Game's canon. Atton believes Revan to be a woman by default. So screw that novel.
@@FuryanJedi13 Forget about Bastila. She was weak as was Anakin. Strong in the Force but weak as person. She fell to the dark side so Revan had to kill her. Revan's relationships with Carth is far more ... beautiful.
Hit the nail on the head. Rvan is a great character. But that's only because of Kotor 2. But even so, the Exile, and what she represented, is infinitely more consequential to the entire Star Wars universe. Also I think you've done videos like this before and I told you this already. This felt scripted. You're really good at this.
Dope video and I totally agree. Revan's mystique and the greatness of the KOTOR saga is established by KOTOR 2, and how it builds up and adds to the lore and story of the first game, fleshing it out more and considering the consequences of it. The Revan novel first started the undermining of KOTOR 2's story and build up, which was fully realized in SWTOR, because the novel was just a swtor tie in. I hated how it ignored KOTOR 2's story, and made the Exile a boring, generic Jedi character who is eliminated in a lame way. It's such a damn shame. KOTOR 2 is my favorite game of all time, and KOTOR is second, and all the great lore established in those two games was wasted by SWTOR. I still hold out hope we can get the KOTOR 3 obsidian was working on, the KOTOR games, and the exile and Revan, deserve a conclusion to their stories.
While it is everyone's dream... concerning what had happened with Obsidian's staffs during these days I'm in doubt anyone would be possible to do so...
What conclusion? Revan refuses to pursue Kreia's goals and Kreia breaks her. The Exile killing Kreia cuts himself from The Force once again and that no one can survive twice so he dies with her. What conclusion do you want? This story is about KREIA and it is finished. Who kids and fools go read some Revan Novels. There Revan would live forever fighting some Sith terminator.
This is a common myth, the Revan novel by Drew Karpyshyn (the writer of KOTOR 1) was what destroyed Revan's and Meetra's characters, not SWTOR. SWTOR tried to *salvage* it. And Meetra Surik's naming and gender were coined in Star Wars Insider, not SWTOR.
@@Nephalem2002 can you explain to me why you think how Book/SWTOR version Revan did justice to KOTOR Revan? In my opinion, nearly all of KOTOR Revan's depth and personality is lost and replaced by something COMPLETELY different and shallow. The only torable part of that book to me is the Canderous subplot at the beginning.
SWTOR was my first introduction to the EU. I love the game. It was a long time after that that i learned about KOTOR games. And i loved these games as well. As someone who loves SWTOR...i have to say that it is indeed a poor continuation of KOTOR 2. It has great World Building, well written stories and characters and i loved the nods it made to KOTOR. However...bringing Revan and Meetra themselves in the game....was the biggest story telling mistake the game has ever made. To this day i do not like how SWTOR used these 2. It was a greedy marketing move and a very bad one. I love SWTOR, will support it but as a loyal fan i will point out its biggest flaw.
While I doubt Bioware will ever acknowledge it, I have this suspicion that one reason why the Exile was basically thrown under the bus in the Revan novel and the SWTOR story (at least she came back for Echoes of Oblivion), is because she is not a character of Bioware origin. KOTOR 2 wasn't developed by Bioware, but was given to Obsidian because Bioware was too busy with developing their own IPs, Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I do not know if there is an issue of royalties or if it is something as simple as arrogance on Bioware's part that made them not want to devote any time to the Exile, or references to KOTOR 2 in general. KOTOR 1 was a brilliant game, but I stand by saying that KOTOR 2, because of its writing, surpassed it by a long shot. To think this game was developed in less than a year, and still be so good (although you have to bring back a lot of content via mods), I shudder to think what KOTOR 2 could have been had it been given the proper development time.
Obsidian didn't develop KOTOR 2 because Bioware was too busy with their own IPs. That's kind of a part of it, but the real reason as confirmed by Bioware themselves is that Lucas Arts wanted a sequel made and released in 1 year. Bioware felt that wasn't enough time to make a quality game so they didn't want their name attached to it and passed it on to Obsidian, then they went on to make their own IPs. In the end they were right because all though Obsidian did amazing, maybe even better than Bioware would have, but the game released in a buggy and unfinished state with a ton of content removed. Some of that content isn't even in the files and it's lost forever.
I don't think royalties would have been a problem, since both games were factually owned by LucasArts. I'm saying BioWare was just petty that Obsidian's broken sequel was still a better game.
You just summarized all that me and my friend have been saying about the Exile post Kotor 2! I think the author of the Revan book was also very involved in the scenario of Kotor 1 and SWTOR, and either they didn't play Kotor 2 either they got so offended by Chris Avellone and his team's work that they decided to erase it. And it's sad to see that the conclusion of Kotor 2 and the new Jedi Order are doomed to failure in the 300 years before SWTOR, to the point where no one remembers who the Exile was. It's great to see people are still doing KOTOR related content, thank you so much !
Crazy how the kotor games are basically the same as the sequels, but these are of far superior quality. The first installment a typical star wars heroes journey story, with Force Awakens being generic and soulless, kotor 1 was creative and gave things their own twist Last jedi/kotor 2 were some guy coming along and wanting to do things differently and give their own critique on the in world universe, with Last Jedi being badly written and lacking much depth, kotor 2 was unique, deep and brought even more creativity than the next. The third installments being scrapped, kotor 3 and the original episode 9 both were cancelled, and instead replaced by a product made by the same ppl who made the first one, with them going back and retroactively changing stuff the 2nd installment did - although SWTOR benefitted from kotor 2 greatly, ep 9 suffered from ep 8
I've always loved KOTOR2 better, but largely due to mechanics and the more organic story flow. But Revan never "fell" to the Dark Side. It was originally canon that he CHOSE the Dark Side.
The Exile being a loyal sidekick to Revan is a total misunderstanding of Kotor 2. There are a lot of implications in the game that the Exile never really got along well with Revan or at the very least didn't know him well. There's the fact that the Exile was the only Jedi under Revan who came back instead of following him, then whenever Kreia talks about Revan, there's never really an option that allows you to say, "hey, I know all of that." The impression we get is that the Exile is learning more about Revan just as we are learning about Revan. When the Exile expresses the reasons for why he fought the Mandalorians, there are no options for you to say that you joined the Mandalorian wars out of loyalty to Revan, matter of fact, the person who made that pitch to the Exile was Malak not Revan. Then the final piece of evidence comes from HK 47 where he explains how Malachor V wasn't really about defeating the Mandalorians, but instead was Revan's way to use the Mass Shadow Generator to break or kill the Jedi who weren't fully loyal to him. The Jedi who were sent there were those that Revan deemed to be disloyal and untrustworthy, and it just so happens that the person leading them is the Exile.
Damn man are you freaking ME??? Cause this is 100% EXACTLY how I feel and understand the game! I was looking so forward to the relationship between The Exile & Revan... Not as an loyal fangirl/fanboy of Revan but somebody who questioned his choices and was cautious and weary of his true intentions and potential but being forced to come together to battle The True Sith.
@@coinkidink9997 yeah I’m glad I’m not the only who noticed this. It just feels like Drew Karpyshyn thought that because Revan and the Exile were both protagonists that must mean they got along and were totally friends.
Actually, it's a gender swapped title. The Hero's Journey is JUST as much about character development. It doesn't matter what you have between your legs. A hero is a hero, is a sandwich. Same thing. Character growth can be shown in different senses, but it's important to a good story no matter the gender. Treating either as different because of gender does both a disservice. The Hero may be more action focused in order to attain character growth; but that doesn't mean there's a lack in development. Nor does it mean as you've unintentionally implied, that a female hero has to be more passive/introverted.
KoTOR 1 does not need KoTOR 2 to stand on it’s own as a phenomenal game. Revan has plenty of buildup in the game and you learn much of Revan’s impact through supporting characters and NPCs. KoTOR 2 is a great game in its own right, and SWTOR does screw with the exile’s character, but you need to give the first game the credit it deserves.
Yeah, but then you'd have to admit that both games can stand on their own and that there are other developers out there that have some good writing teams even with AAA corporate publishers, and that's apparently just not allowed if you like any Obsidian/Black Isle games 😏
Yeah I was really unhappy when he just dismissed the first game outright, hell it even STARTED the KoTOR trend of criticizing the Jedi as a religious order via Jolee Bindo, who was basically like a less cynical and less Machiavellian Kreia. KoTOR 2 does add on to the story as any good sequel should, but they both stand on their own as great games.
Thanks for opening my eyes about this. This is a really needed video about KOTOR 2, usually everyone bashes it but don't realize how much of an impact it had. I do love SWTOR and I also did recognize the lack of representation of the exile in it but I didnt think to much on it. Glad you made this video!
Kotor II was like the empire strikes back of the Kotor series. I can't imagine what a proper third game would have been like, I'd have definitely coughed $60 on that..
@@xoulmannn No, just some loose hints from the one that wrote the Warrior story, but nothing confirmed in the story itself or any guide, as far as the EU goes, she died in KOTOR II and that's it. There's barely any information on The Entity itself, what it is, where it came from, etc.
100% agree with this, especially the commentary about the Exile's story truly establishing Revan's legacy beyond player projection. Part of why I loved kotor 2 so much was that no matter how you played Revan in the first game, light or dark, the far-reaching consequences of Revan's actions are undeniable, which Kreia emphasizes several times. The Jedi Exile returned to the Council to be judged for her actions where Revan never truly faces any such consequences despite having been a major catalyst in the events of both games and beyond, and to have the Exile die like she did makes Revan's lasting legacy almost feel undeserved. Especially when, as you said, the Exile is credited with rebuilding the Jedi Order and actually cleaning up Revan's messes and is never given any credit for it, not even a measly reference other than acting as a prop for Revan. Making her canonically female was great when I heard the news, but to see her character go on to only fangirl over Revan and then unceremoniously die without having been treated as the true co-protagonist she is, it also cheapens her character overall. Like oh, *of course* a female Exile would have been in love with Revan and dropped literally everything she had going on (which was just her cleaning up after the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars, which if anything should be Revan's responsibility) to sacrifice everything she had regained during the course of kotor 2 to again blindly follow Revan to the ends of the galaxy and for what? I remember the nature of Revan being the heart of the Force and the Exile the wound in the Force being a point of great discussion on the old kotor forums when we all still hoped a kotor 3 was in the works, and looking back a lot of the ideas tossed around there were worlds ahead of what we got with the Revan novel and the SWTOR dlcs. Not to mention, that kotor 2 concepts overall were pretty cool and I'll always be disappointed that they were rarely ever mentioned or referenced again (namely Kreia, who is by far one of my favorite SW characters of all time, or even the mere concepts of Eldritch horror level Sith, Nihilus and Sion - honestly the entire Sith Triumvirate paired with Kreia's philosophy re: the Force itself would be so fascinating to explore but it doesn't seem like SW wants to go in this sort of direction again...). Aside from that, I also think it's a weird move to canonize characters that were previously customizable, because you're never going to be able to create a version that satisfies each player's very personal experience of either games, ultimately leading to some dissatisfaction no matter what. The fact that they made canon Revan kind of boring IMO but to have also effectively erased the themes established in the second game and bastardized the Jedi Exile as a character completely, no matter how you played that character, will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. I actually started writing a fix-it fic out of spite for what they did with the "canon" versions of these characters but only so far as to give my version of the Exile some justice, at least before Disney tries their hand at it which media outlets constantly infer with increasingly click-baity articles😅
i appreciate the idea of swtor story being set like 300 or something years after the kotor games so there is as much free original story as there can be, but i still think what everyone wanted was a kotor 3
Honestly what a well thought out and well written video. No conjecture, no hyperbole, no shade throwing and bashing of TOR just an open analysis of how TOR impacted the Kotor Story and its perception. I've always thought that the character of Revan is basically just a reflection of the player in Kotor 1, not until Kotor 2 is their actions and choices given meaning and their character context. Kotor 1 lay the seeds of the character, their look, mysteriousness, legendary status and that they may not truly belong to neither the light nor dark. Kotor 2 expands on every single one of those aspects, either by experiencing the aftermath the events Revan was vital to or from 1st, 2nd or even 3rd hand accounts of their antics or even a look at Revan's thought process through Kreia. Hell Kotor 2 is responsible for Revan even having his now trademark purple lightsaber (and duel wielding sabers) since his apparition on Korriban is the first time he ever wielded one.
The lack of Reven in Kotor 1 was what struck me when I first played it. After hearing and reading all the Revan hype I thought he was going to be a central character and it did confuse when I played. None the less the established character of Revan is great but the Excile has an amazing character arc which is very underrated, perhaps because of swtor.
All we can do is pray that the new Kotor Remake does well enough to warrant a Kotor II remake, and then, finally we shall have our rev- cough - wrong game. A chance at Kotor III as it should of been to retcon the Revan novel and swtor's grandiose mistakes in the handling of these characters
I love KOTOR2 and it's my favorite of the two games, but I think you're overlooking a key point of the two. Meetra Surik's story was personal and so her impacts were also smaller and more personal. There would be pockets of folks who might remember her, but in the overall scheme of the galactic narrative she didn't have a huge impact. She was Revan's general and loyal right hand but not much more. Even at the end of KOTOR2 she leaves to follow him which is a point you left out of this video. She chose to follow him before the book or swtor was made, so they only reflect what happened in KOTOR2. And if you ever played the KOTOR2 TSLRP then you would know this even more. As someone who also had the toolset for the game, I got to see all of the cut content that didn't make it into the game, and as Kreia tells Meetra, she would be forgotten to time. This was the prophecy, so swtor in essence is fulfilling Kreia's prophecy regarding Meetra.
The exile did have a massive impact on the galaxy though. The exile saved all life in the galaxy from Nihilus, stopped Kreia from causing the end of the force, stopped the sith, saved the Republic from dying, revived the Jedi Order into a new direction, and completely changed the criminal syndicate economy. Regardless if she was eventually forgotten to time, and Bioware butchering the story, her impact was massive.
KOTOR 1 and 2 are games that serve a story, SWTOR is a game served by its story. Unfortunately characters being snubbed is something that predates the Disney era. Not to the same degree, but it's there nonetheless. RIP Meetra Surik.
I get the feeling KOTOR 2 was largely ignored because it introduced characters that asked or raised some rather inconvenient questions about the formulaic narrative of Star Wars. So it was safer to just retcon the likes of the Exile, and straight up erase huge troublemakers like Kreia. I recall several years ago there were some people claiming KOTOR 2 had no right to deconstruct Star Wars like it did and that there are some core aspects of the franchise that should never be questioned of examined; which is kind of funny since KOTOR 2 was all about not believing in things blindly and questioning things. Not to mention Revan wouldn't be half as great as he is without the build up and mystery KOTOR 2 gave him.
I've said it before... after all the sith lords Meetra defeated and future Jedi she trained... she's finally done in by bad/lazy writing. I've more or less pretended everything after the second game did not happen.
Meetra is my favourite Star Wars character and seeing genuine appreciation for her is good to see. I'm a little surprised though, that you didn't also touch on how the MMO destroyed Darth Nihilus.
Thank You! Meetra is my favorite Star Wars character of all time and I can’t tell you how much it hurt when she was nothing more but a side kick to Revan and instead of being his equal they make her Revans “student” A empathic great warrior with her own life and legacy was completely ruined by Swotor and instead of letting her be happy with Michael they just killed her off like she was nothing
The simple difference: Obsidian took the task of understanding what BioWare was doing. But BioWare never tried to see what Obsidian did, only taking small pieces that liked the fans.
When I first entered SWTOR 9 years ago (I joined when the game went F2P), the burning question in my mind was regarding what happened to Meetra, Atton, Mira, Bao-Dur, T3, Canderous (Mandalore the Preserver), Mical (Disciple), Brianna Kae (Handmaiden), Visas, and HK-47. I was disappointed to find out they were not even mentioned. I am curious to find out if Darth Mar is a descendant of Visas, but even that is a footnote. I have discovered two gathering missions that reference Master Mical, and Bao-Dur; which is still a footnote to their impact. When I read "Revan," I learned how T3 was destroyed, and how Meetra died and expected more out of that. Yet she remained as a ghost for 300 years to encourage and give Revan strength from the force to sustain him during his captivity. On Corellia the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk during KOTOR 1, are honored with statues. The crew of the Ebon Hawk in KOTOR 2 are not honored in that way. Thank you for this video.
Really great video, yes, TOR and the book really did the Exile dirty, but I really do feel what TOR and the book did to Revan was a betrayal of the character established in KOTOR 2. They handled two great characters with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer and as you pointed out, totally overlooked the companions from KOTOR 2, these are the "Lost Jedi" that rebuilt the Jedi Order, they are important! Yet not a peep about them...such a shame.
Thank you for making this video. I’m old enough to remember when Revan/The Exile’s story was just KOTOR 1+2. We had to wait 7 whole years to find out what happened next and I can’t tell you how disappointed a lot of people were when Bioware announced SWTOR as an MMO. It just didn’t feel like the same universe or the same characters. And don’t get me started on those dumbass books.
While I agree that the Exile's portrayal as just another follower of Revan is far from true to her character, I disagree that the focus towards Revan rather than both the Exile and Revan was a bad thing. Revan is the prodigal knight, the face of the Mandalorian wars and the Jedi Civil War. KOTOR 1 portrays a galaxy in total war, and Revan is at the heart of the conflict and by the end of the war, a hero. KOTOR 2 shows a galaxy that is licking it's wounds and recovering from the skirmishes of the first. However, the war taking place in KOTOR 2 is a war in the shadows, with the Exile and the Jedi constantly trying to out-manoeuvre the Sith and vice versa, all while the galaxy is just trying to get by. Nihilus striking at Katarr and the events that lead to it, Goto's conversation with the exile, the Jedi masters in hiding, all demonstrate just how covert this war is. There was no grand celebration at the end of KOTOR 2, there was no hero's triumph. But rather a bittersweet end to a conflict that most people in the galaxy had no idea was taking place. The Exile being forgotten to history and sidelined by Revan reflects this. While the ramifications of her actions are many and are large, like in real life, there are many people who influence the World in great ways, yet we know not their name. The story and history of the Exile are carried by few. Nevertheless, great video, you earned a sub :)
I agree with you. To me, having the Exile be the hero in the shadows, someone who had a major impact in the galaxy but never got true recognition for it and ultimately dies a tragic death actually adds to the character. It makes the character even more of a foil to Revan. Ever since the days of the mandalorian wars Revan was this great hero, this larger than life figure who etched his name into galactic history multiple times. However, without the Exile, his actions would've been for nothing because Nihlus and Scion would've destroyed both the Jedi and the Republic. It even ties into KOTOR 2 being a darker game than 1. The Exile doesn't become a galactic legend, instead, to the end, the Exile would be a hero in the shadows, a soldier working to safeguard the galaxy from behind the scenes. At the same time being different and the same from Revan.
I agree with you, except for one thing: since the Exile _is_ featured in the novel as a secondary protagonist, she definitely deserved much better treatment than being a substitute protagonist for two chapters and then becoming a side-kick. It was just bad writing.
I will never forgive how much of a jobber they made the Exile... The Exile who literally soloed an entire Sith Academy, singlehandedly defeated the remnant Sith forces of Revan/Malak's empire, defeated and killed an unkillable Sith who has slaughtered Jedi since before the Exar Kun War, killed a Sith (arguably more of a dark side entity) that ate entire worlds, and the master of the 3 aforementioned Sith who managed to wave her hand and cut the force off from 3 Jedi Council Members. They turned that Exile into a total jobber and Revan c-sucker...
Let's also not forget how the Exile as stated by the council literally feeds off the experience and energy of those that they kill... even as shown if go Darkside route where literally showcased how steal energies, experience and fighting styles of the Masters.
1:49 Respectfully, I think you are being VERY uncharitable to the original game, while yes it does follow the heroes journey, the heroes journey is not the story itself, just the mechanism someone uses to tell a story. It's kind of disingenuous to make it seem as though the original KoTOR doesn't stand out in it's story or characters just because it doesn't go about being dark and deconstructionist like the second game is, especially when the second game relies on the first's story and characters.
Revan is loved more then the Exile simply because we got to play the Lord of the Sith and had the chance to retake our throne. Exile is cool, does cool things. Isn't Lord of Sith cool, plus Raven is arguably 100x more important than the Exile, not only did he stop the Mandalorian when no one else was willing, he rooted out the Sith in the unknown regions, then led a blood line so powerful and successful it left a giant mark on the galaxy.
The Exile is literally only a reflection character of those in her crew. Unlike Revan who exists as his own Character, Light or Dark. The Exile is literally no one at all if the people in her crew don't exist. She is not a character, shes a reflection
I'd say that the Exile is more like a binding tape or magnet. She found the Lost Jedi and it is because of her that the Jedi Order were able to be rebuilt. Although, to be fair, not every Jedi was lost. I mean Bastilla survived the Purge. But I guess the Exile is the reason the Jedi Order in the movies exist. The Lost Jedi rebuilt the Order and the surviving Jedi rallied behind them. I really wish we could have gotten a KOTOR 3. A real KOTOR 3...and Hell, it could still happen. SWTOR takes place a good 300 something years after KOTOR 2. So KOTOR 3 could feature the events between SWTOR and KOTOR 2.
It's the other way around. The Exile is the standard to which the crew tests themselves against. If the Exile is an ideal Jedi, then their crewmates follow that path and become the new Jedi Order. Hell, even Canderous grows less dark. While if the Exile is a Sith at heart, they can corrupt their teammates to the darkside.
If you believe that the Jedi Exile has no character you must replay KOTOR 2, 2 has so many dialogue options with detail and backstory driven behind the words that simply don't exist in 1. The Exile is a fleshed out character in KOTOR 2 alone, you can read their regrets or their certainty about the Mandalorian wars in all the Dialogue options, how can you say Revan, who has no defined personality in KOTOR 1, who is essentially a faceless Sith Lord, has a sturdier existence as a character without what we learn of them in KOTOR 2 and through the Exile's journey?
@@theentity1839 I've logged 441 hours on KotOR1 and 387 hours on KotoR 2, i've played them enough to have a valid opinion. Revan has an established, well-defined backstory and character before you even wake up on the Endar Spire, You're choices are about Which version of Revan you'll regress back into. His Companions; other than Bastila; have no bearing whatsoever on who Revan is. Canderous Knows of Revan; thats it. Jolee knows you are Revan, but is inconsequential. HK has no impact on you being Revan and only offers more backstory; well after you unlock the memories. The Exile; Every companion; besides the droids and Kreia; change their identity based upon the decisions of the player. When its only because of: Visas Marr, Kreia; Bao-dur and Atris that you even know much about who the Exile is to begin with. IF these characters lied to you; your identity changes; if these characters words about you were misinformed; your identity changes. And the same characters who are responsible for telling you who you are; are the same characters who change who they are based upon your decision of who you want to be. Its a bad-way of designing a moralty-system that ties in with this sort of RPG; It just opens up so many flaws, inconsistences and potential loop-holes in the story telling for the sake of Player freedom with a blank character, and player option decisions. You don't like my opinion; fine; whatever. But don't assume i need to play more to agree with your view.
The way the book sidelined other fun characters like Juhani, Jolee, Misson and Zalbaar and then killed T3-M4 was just horrible. And HK appears several times in KOTOR and continues going in Legends, but the Exile being killed by Scourge is just plain insulting.
Kotor 2 is also ya know... Unfinished. As much as many people consider the moded version the "actual game" consoles and anything other than PC is a complicated mess of a story/plot.
Being fair, it might be attempting to be like Final Fantasy Tactics. Revan as Delita, while the Exile becomes a forgotten hero like Ramza. That said even if this were the case, Final Fantasy Tactics still handles it so much better than SWTOR/Revan Novel. Highly recommend that game, especially the PSP port, War of the Lions.
I disagree that KOTOR 1 did not flesh out Revan as a character. You start the game as an amnesiac character, BUT throughout the game you get small snippets about Revan, how great he was when against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he went to war and saved the galaxy from the mandalorians - and how fearsome and terrible he was when he returned as a Dark Lord of the Sith as Darth Revan and brought the Republic to its knees. We learn about the brilliance of his tactics and his charisma. Even former enemies like Canderous the Mandalorian had nothing but awe for Revan. All these fragments of information made the twist such an earth-shattering moment, even more so than the "I am your father" from ESB. Starwars gave us two incredible twists (one with Vader and the other one with Revan) that stay with people and I for one will always remember fondly.
I really like how crushingly bleak and depressing KOTOR 2 is. Pretty much every place you go to or person you speak to is horribly broken in some way and it all ties in with the Exile and the post civil war galaxy. It'd be very easy to make something that dark just boring edgy bullshit but I think it pulled off the atmosphere really well.
I think there’s a beautiful tragedy type thing to Meetra not getting recognition for restoring the jedi order. It’s quite Jedi-like for someone who’s turned so many to the light to not want to take the credit for it.
I’m a huge revan fan and I loved the book and mmo even but watching this video gave me a new perspective. It made some points I hadn’t even thought about. I love KOTOR 2 but I’ve never thought about it in this way. Great job, you have changed my perspective on all this.
Agreed on all points. My only appreciation of the Revan novel is the fact that it provided a canonical name for the Exile, and confirmed that she became recogized as a Jedi Master.
Hit the nail on the head. Bioware knew that Revan was the selling point and killing off the Exile eliminates competition. Killing off the Exile is okay if its earned, but in the novel it is not. And I completely agree, KOTOR2 turned Revan from an amazing character into a legendary one. It informs the player that Revan knew the consequences of his actions, and that makes the universe feel lived in. Great analysis!
I absolutely agree. How does meetra go from defeating the sith triumphant do being utterly mid as a character. She was so much more interesting when you play as her and obviously much more powerful in the game.
LOVED kotor, played from start to finish at least a dozen times over the years. Kotor 2 however, is imo the better game. I loved the story far more than the story of kotor, and the companion characters were, again imo, far superior. So glad it is getting some love from people.
I personally liked KOTOR 2 better. I can freely admit the KOTOR 1 was probably a better game, but I really enjoyed all the depth that went into Kreia. Her philosophy and what she is actually trying to teach the exile all the way through the game, no matter how you play your force alignment, was extremely well thought out and developed. She is definitely one of my favorite SW characters of any media origin.
I didn't know they did her so dirty like that... Kotor 2 has always been my favorite the characters were just so cool, hopefully they can do her justice some day.
This video is three years old, but still long overdue. My first KotOR game was TSL, and I absolutely loved the atmosphere of looming darkness. Everywhere you went, there was tension, unease, pain. It was like if you're in The Empire Strikes Back, right after it ended, where the bad guys won and you're just trying to salvage what you can. You have complex dialogue choices, can negotiate with bad guys, you're shown the SW world from the inside, with all the technobabble and things. It's great. Yes, the game was unfinished, but I don't blame Obsidian for it, it did a hell of a job anyhow. A lot of people give Avellone flack for his writing, but in this game, he hit it out of the park. The Jedi and the Sith, after all, are, first and foremost, religious orders, so all the religious references and messianic narratives made perfect sense (less so in Fallout New Vegas, sorry fanboys). And all the greys were just chef's kiss! Now, when I played KotOR1, I enjoyed it, but it felt kinda cheezy. It was mostly a typical story about a guy saving the world from some evil. You keep hearing stories about that one badass that changed the Galaxy years ago, and then - whoops! - you are that guy, just have amnesia. I don't know, maybe I watch too many movies, but this felt tired to me. I was so excited about the Revan novel when it came out, but when I got to actually read it, my reaction was "Da fuck did I just read?!?". Sure, Revan was the center figure, but the Exile (I hate the novel so much, I won't even accept 'Meetra Surik'; also, the Exile was established as canonically female even before the novel) was done really dirty in it. She was nerfed into the ground, and save for being a bit more savvy in going undercover, she was a joke. Her death was especially unceremoniously bad, when you take into account that she had a very strong sense of precognition that would have warned her about whats-his-face's backstabbing. I have to somewhat disagree with your point about TOR being littered with references to Revan, but not the Exile. Narratively it makes sense: Revan was this larger-than-life character, both during the Mandalorian Wars, and later during and after the Jedi Civil War. For the Exile, though, it's different: yes, she was one of Revan's top lieutenants during the Mandalorian Wars, but she left Republic space after the Wars had ended; she cut herself off from the Force, and when she returned, her impact on the Galaxy would be much more subtle. Peragus? Yes, it got blown up, but who knows if it was really her? Just the TSF and Atris, and even they couldn't say for certain if it was her or someone else (because they didn't know about the Sith). Yes, she helped keep Telos's Citadel Station afloat, yes, she fought Nihilus's invasion of Telos, and the civil war on Onderon, but otherwise, her actions were much smaller in scale. Nar Shadaa? Korriban? Nothing's really changed there. Dantooine? Sure, she prevented a coup, but, again, nothing's really changed. It's a backwater planet on the Outer Rim, and the conflict affected a small settlement. So, who cares? Other than G0-T0, I mean. She saved a lot of people, the Republic, and the Jedi, but she did so on a localized scale, without flash and fanfares. Her path was much more personal than Revan's, so while she is a Hero in her own right, she'd definitely not get cults and artifacts. To most people, the situation just fixed itself. On the other hand, she _should have_ gotten a space-ship or station named after her, maybe a memorial plaque or statue on Telos, Dantooine, Onderon... (don't remember if these are even featured in the game) But then, to the Republic she's just another Jedi. All in all, I agree with your points. BioWare was just petty that Obsidian wrote a much more compelling story, with a much more interesting protagonist, so it deliberately downplayed the Exile's significance, and pretty much nuked TSL out of the lore. TOR is, after all, a BioWare title, as was KotOR1.
We all can agree Surik wasn't properly valued in TOR. But there's one thing you're just so fundamentally wrong about. Kotor 2 did not establish revan as a character, it added to it. Kotor 1 establishes Revan. He is not an established character at the beginning... he is by the end. You could completely and utterly remove 2 from existence, and Revan would still remain a fully established character. Light side ending is his canon, kotor 2 existing or not, that is true. That is a fully established character by the end. That is literally what kotor 1 does... it tells the story and establishes revan as a character in the SW universe. And as far as Surik not being Revan's equal... that shouldn't even be an argument. Yes, she was a leader throughout her story. But at the end of the day, she was still a follower of Revan and if Revan returns, she would do so again. 100% agree that she wasn't given her due diligence and should have had a better representation. But she would not be Revan's equal. That is completely fair. She simply was not as powerful, or even as great of a leader, as Revan was. She was a hole in the force and formed incredible bonds and was a great character in the wake of Revan. Both Revan and Surik were terribly botched in TOR. I think we all agree on that. But saying Revan wasn't an established character until kotor 2 is pretty silly.
The Revan that is publicly beloved by many fans was *not* created in KOTOR 1. The renegade hero that sacrificed himself to darkness for a greater cause. The hero who balanced between the light and the darkness etc etc - This was all brought into existence by KOTOR 2 and Kreia. Sure, there's a Revan that is established in KOTOR 1, there's a character there that can be liked but the traits that make him the Revan that is loved within the fandom was not.
They should just decouple KotOR from TOR. The KotOR storyline was just wasted in TOR for commercial purposes, similarly to how the Disney trilogy brought classic characters back for theater attendance, only to have them sacrificed to prop up their new characters and storyline.
Thanks man for this video!!! I too love Swtor. Played it on and off for 7 years. Got like 90% the OPs NiM achvs, titles, and wings, etc.. But I would trade it all for a proper retelling sequel to Kotor 1 and 2. Your whole video perfectly sums up my feelings about how BW screwed over the Exile as I commented at length in your Jedi Exile Explained video a few years ago. Keep up the great work man!
I actually remember back when Kotor 2 came out. The trailers actually made it clear the exile was male. Not that is a massive issue. Just a personal preference, since I played as the Exile as male. Maybe it was a coincidence but when you ask for a random name. They actually gave the last name as Surik. However I made the Exile male and he was known as Dastin Surik for me. But I do agree with the novel. They mistreat a lot of characters that we fell in love with, brushed aside. That book feels more as just something to promote the old Republic. That is a side quest, I was so disappointed. After putting several hours into Kotor 1 & 2. While I do enjoy the Old Republic era. I sort of have to write my own versions of Revan and the Exile for it to make sense for me. But the Exile remains one of my most influential characters in Star Wars.
I think of the Exile as a male named Logan Surik. It just has a nice tough sound to it. Now, all I can do is hope that things will get redone or rebooted properly. But given the current state of the Star Wars franchise, I'm not particularly optimistic. So for now, I shall stick to franchises that HAVEN'T let me down.
First my friend I'm sorry I watch this video late and second this is a utterly fantastic and amazing video as always. My thoughts is since you know I don't play the games KOTOR or SWTOR I had to rely on fan made videos to know more about it. I so enjoyed watching your series on Revan you did back in 2017 because there was so much about him that I didn't know. Not to annoy you or anything but I had to rely on KOTOR Movie Saga to know Revan's story arc but his videos only showed Revan's redemption and destroying the Star Forge and not his time in the Mandalorian Wars, he hasn't finished it yet. SWTOR is fascinating but not as great as KOTOR, I've watched a few SWTOR movie videos but what I don't like is when they get to the fighting scenes it's like your playing a video game and not like watching an animated series which I prefer. I've also enjoyed watching SWTORISTA's videos to expand my knowledge on SWTOR but your videos gives me more knowledge of the expanded universe of Star Wars then her. This is why I'm hoping that Disney and Lucasfilms will make a Knights of the Old Republic movie and focus on that timeline in Star Wars that has never been brought to the big screen. Keep up the great work my friend and may the force be with you always
I agree and only hope that when these games are used for a movie the author realizes that both of these characters have to shine to make the movie right
This is way too much story for a movie... even for a trilogy. There's more than enough material in Kotor 1 to make a movie trilogy solely contained within that story. The story goes off the wall bonkers after that and quite honestly wouldn't make for a coherent translation to the big screen any way.
So I know I'm coming to this video way late but this really hit home to me for one really big reason. My first exposure to KOTOR was actually KOTOR 2. I went through it experiencing exactly what you where talking about with how Revan as a character and the legend of the jedi we all know was being told me yet I didn't know who he was, or what the Mandalorian wars where. When I finally went back and played KOTOR and got that experience I was left with a feeling of "is this really the guy KOTOR 2 talked about so much?" Because of that Revan never really clicked with me as he felt like two entirely different people between the man you play and the character KOTOR 2 tells you about. What I did latch on to heavily was the Jedi Exile and Kreia. The former going about using the dark/light side to influence a damaged galaxy all while the ladder seems to tread the middle warning you of making people dependent on your aid or a virus to spread cruelty. It was the first time I felt like Star Wars was actually challenging me to think beyond a simple good/bad dynamic and instead actually think about what actually is good or bad and what light/dark side of the force really is. Simply put I loved how it was presented and I felt the Jedi Exile really should of been the first grandmaster of a new order of jedi who actually adopts ideals of individuality in contrast to the more dogmatic follow the council nature we tend to see. I bought the Reven book because I wanted to know more about what happened to the Exile and sadly the more I read it the more I felt like she wasn't even a part of it and when Scourge killed her at the end I was pissed. I knew that was all I would really get of her and to me she was, or should of been, far more important to the future of the jedi than Revan ever would be.
For having played Kotor 2 again recently, it's absoutely amazing how the narration is up to the player's investment. If you wish to comprehend what's at stake clearly you MUST pay attention to the interactions between characters and informations you can get. Otherwise it will be a good story still but not that legendary. The only flaw is its animation and visuals that kotor 1 team handed so well, imo KOTOR 2 is the game that needs a real remake not his predecessor
IMO, that's been the core weakness of Obsidian, even after Chris Avellone left (probably got worse since they hired their own fans as writers). It's a double edged sword in that the narrative is so esoteric that you really have to get invested in the lore to appreciate the dialogue, and as this whole comment section shows it makes having an honest discussion about Obsidian games tough. The same people here who love KOTOR 2 at the exclusion of every other Old Republic IP probably also hated The Last Jedi for doing the exact same narrative challenges.
i heard the quick actions or something like that in kotor 2 is broken so when in combat you have to like individually pause and unpause combat and switch between every character to manually target and use abilities or something. idk i owned the disces back when it came out but my computer couldnt handle it and my first gaming pc didnt even have a disc drive so yeah
@@kongming66 IMO The Last Jedi didn't really try to be that different. The Rey and Kylo stuff, absolutely. Same with Luke, best parts of the movie. The rest of the movie doesn't make any sense at all, and since it clearly decided to take a dump on the previous film, it really make it seem like the trilogy wasn't that thought out.
Meetra Surik has got to be my favorite female hero of all time. She even beats Catwoman. This video made me realize something -- K1 was the story of a man/warrior saving the world from a big bad guy, while K2 was the story of a woman/healer, repairing the world from the damage that the world has done. This is one of the many reasons why both stories are so appealing and so intertwined. As much as the third wave feminists may hate it, throughout history the archetypes of a great man and a great woman have been respectively of a noble warrior and a healer. They are deeply ingrained in our subconscious. It doesn't matter to us how many bad guys Meetra cuts down, what matters is that she helps people recover and restore. She even helped Darth Sion recover, and he was terrifying. Add to it another layer -- her personal trauma caused by her war crime. She was in a never-ending search for salvation, and even if the Galaxy forgave her, she could never forgive herself. There is so much beauty in it. And I think Karpishin did understand it when he wrote her in that chapter where she spoke with Bastila. I don't know why he chose to disregard it further on. Maybe because Lucasfilm deemed this line of story too heavy for the kids and just wanted the game to be focused on the classical hopeful gun-slinging SW. I usually don't share these things, but I happened upon this very short fanfic, written from the perspective of Darth Sion. Give it a try, it's outstanding. www.fanfiction.net/s/7076973/1/Dark-Guardian
I personally think that both KOTOR games are the greatest content ever created in all of Star Wars. I agree that KOTOR follows the traditional Star Wars formula, but despite this it nails its storyline and the Revan revelation is its greatest moment. KOTOR 2 is a magnificent deconstructivist take on traditional Star Wars mythologies and despite it being unfinished originally it takes Star Wars to a whole new level and that's why its story is so well respected to this day. You are absolutely right that Meetra Surik is every bit a pivotal character in the KOTOR universe as Revan is. I never played the SWTOR MMO (mostly because it was a giant money maker for EA with the micro-transactions within the game), but I know enough about the plot of it. I do think that Emperor Vitiate was a terrific villain and I like his connection to Revan and Malak and how he was the Sith influence in the background who firstly tricked the Mandalorians into invading the Republic before the events of KOTOR so he could gauge how strong they were and weaken them before launching his own invasion, then how he corrupted Revan and Malak into using the Star Forge to launch another war on the Republic. I totally agree with how you say both the Revan book and the SWTOR game ruined Meetra Surik. They also ruined the relationship between Revan and Bastila as well. If I were running LucasArts I would have created a KOTOR 3 where a new character is sent into the unknown regions, say 10 years after the events of KOTOR 2 in search of Revan and Meetra Surik, with a mixture of the companions from the first two games and perhaps some new ones, with the goal of finding the two Jedi and taking on and defeating Emperor Vitiate together.
Does my voice sound weird in this? ANYWAY, please let me know what you think of this unscripted video! We're looking to obtain Discord Partnership for the channel, so if you haven't yet be sure to come and join my server now! - discord.gg/BdpmBtx -
Sore throat? It does sound a bit off but its ok.
it sounds better because its a little bit louder.
Wouldn't say weird, but it does sound like you have a slight stuffy nose, like a cold is lingering.
I think you sound good. You are like a historian telling tales of heroes and villains of the old republic.
Good vid, great analysis.
So glad someone is talking about how important the Exile is in the KOTOR era. It breaks my heart how she was treated in Swtor
Yeah, it still a powerful moment to see her np doubt,
But it could have been sooo much moreee
One of my ultimate Star Wars frustrations
I mean...she rebuilt the Jedi Order!
Always feel like obsidian really understand great narrative but never get good timelines to complete the games hence the mechanics suffer but then they try to sweep their games quietly out of jealousy only to find the obsidian ones become cult classics to really popular later on. New vegas was same thing with bethesda for fallout
It breaks my heart to see them take characters that we, the players, established and defined for ourselves in the KotOR games and render it all completely pointless by creating these “canonized” versions of them.
"I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you. I would have let the galaxy die. You are more rare than you know, and what you have taught yourself must not be allowed to die."
-Kreia to the Exile
What a waste of a compelling character.
As much as I despise SWTOR for many reasons, it's handling of KOTOR plot points is not one of them.
I regard it as entirely separate from KOTOR2 as it is Bioware and not Obsidian.
Of course they were going to shitcan any plot that was not created for their own KOTOR game.
Especially after being acquired by EA who are not known for their sportsmanlike behaviour.
It's sad though because Obsidian at least had the good manners to preserve KOTOR 1 story in KOTOR 2 without arbitrarily killing off characters from it.
Lol I read that in her voice and mannerisms.
That makes no sense...
Kotor ii was pseudo- philosophy nonsense. I don't think obsidian knew wth they were doing
@dudeguy it was stupid, vapid dialogue that went on forever at the expense of good storytelling
Meetra defeats 3 sith lords. I haven't played TOR, but it annoyed me in Revan how she was treated as insignificant. She was, legit, one of the most powerful people in the galaxy at that point.
she was certainly powerful, but she was uniquely suited to fighting nihilus and managed to defeat sion by making him loose faith in what he believed in, which was keeping him alive, although if he would die like a normal sith, she would have defeated him the normal way too. She did then go on to defeat Kreia fair and square, so that's definitely a win
@@kylescoolclips Kreia was obviously holding back. That was not a battle. It was her final lesson.
@@TheJotaroKujo can you explain that?
@@kylescoolclips As I recall, Kreia’s ultimate plan wasn’t to kill the Exile. She wanted to use the Exile as a conduit to destroy the Force itself. But when that failed, Kreia just sent the Exile on her way to find Revan and defeat the Sith Empire
@@kylescoolclips Kreia says it herself. The exile is very dear to her and she would give her life for her. She would never kill her. The only reason she went to Malachor and let her take on the sith apprentices and Darth Sion was because she knew she could handle them.
Kreia sees in Meetra what she could not do, the death of the force, and she firmly believed thay she was the key to that end.
Then TOR came and threw all that out the window, but that's a different discussion.
KOTOR 2 made me love Revan, hearing his story from different characters. It made KOTOR 1s plot twist even more impactful.
I agree! Also, it added more meaning to Darth Malak's line when he said "Savior, conqueror, hero, villian. You are all of these things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone".
I played 2 first cuz of how I came into getting an Xbox, so the twist blew my fucking mind extra hard when I played and learned it. I prolly should’ve seen it coming long in advance, but I was invested in the experience too much lol.
@@TheReclaimer1321 Dude, same. I found KOTOR 2 at a thrift store and decided to try it out, one of the best decisions I ever made
agreed without KOTOR 2 revan isn't really the iconic mysterious and significant character he is. Without the exile's story and exposition from KOTOR 2 revan is just a projection of the PC
There was already a significant amount of that in KOTOR 1 for those that looked for it.
Juhani was saved by Revan, this was how she ended up on Dantooine in the first place.
THIS is why we needed KOTOR III, so we could have properly finished the story laid out by KOTOR 1 and 2 and got to see the absolute awesomeness Obsidian had in store for us with their version of the Unknown Regions Sith Order.
Yep
It's so sad
They act like they couldnt have made Kotor 3 and TOR
@@PallahDaOracle Well maybe now that the ea deal is over, Disney and Microsoft could have a deal to make it by obsidian.
@@testilande9116 I'd love for them to do so. If haven't look up what they were planning to do.
Basically your character would go into the unknown regions and learn about the ancient sith. There's some other stuff they said, but I mean that kinda sums up how freakin awesome that would have been.
@@PallahDaOracle I also hope we would get to play as Revan during the mandalorian war and also when he was a sith before his fight with bastila. But hmmm, if Obsidian ever makes the game then the downside would be that it woudnt come to playstation...
@@testilande9116 I hope not, avellone isn’t at obsidian anymore, so it wouldn’t be the same writing team
Glad someone finally said it. KOTOR 2 was one of the best and most unique Star wars stories ever. And the fact that TOR ignored this really took away from the game.
KOTOR 2 was dark, mysterious, deep, thoughtful. It added SO much to the first game and really completed it. Revan steals the show in KOTOR 2 while not even making an appearance, that's great story-telling.
And with disney in charge of all star wars games story writing, it's going to be really hard to ever get something as good and deep..
Bioware was just jealous.
KOTOR 2 is a not story that can exist alongside the more simple, cheery, and upbeat Star Wars the franchise has become. I doubt we will ever see another Star Wars work that explores those themes again
@@HierophanticRose I am pretty sure Mandalorian does in fact touch on some of the subjects though? Not nearly as deeply, but it is definitely far from cheery cheery.
Even Bastila has a bigger influence on the story than the exile in the new game..
Yep :(
thats a given since the grandmaster in tor is her's and revan's descendant
Bastilla was and is always going to be a great Star Wars character I do still like KOTOR 2 a lot although story wise it doesn’t compare to the original KOTOR but Bastilla is amazing and miss Her as a character in KOTOR. Revan is the strongest but Bastilla is if not next close to the strongest of any Jedi and Sith Revan is always the most powerful but even more than that is the coolest most COMPLEX character mainly because he was never fully Sith OR Jedi some of the things he had done were to prevent a greater evil some things he did for himself too and there was NOT and never will be a character as strong or as cool as Darth Revan or Jedi Revan when he was a Jedi or a Sith none not even Sidious would have survived the battle. Malak and Sidious were both week Sidious killing Plaugus in his sleep Malak attacking his master from afar and yeah Bastilla saved his life but was still so strong and only by cowardice could someone ever defeat him and no one really stood a chance besides the will of the force (what Kreia hates) is what kept Revan alive so he was still strong enough to survive regardless that Bastilla saved him it was the will of the force.
Thats because people simp for her
KOTOR 2 was the most ambitious RPG of the 2000s. It's a shame they never finished it. Damn those stupid christmas deadlines.
What was ambitious about it other than Rian Johnson-ing the classic Star Wars story? The entire game was basically reused assets from from the first game with some slight improvements to the menus, combat, and UI. BioWare did the heavy lifting of actually creating the game from scratch. I love Obsidian as an RPG developer, but their most successful games are reskins of previous games by other developers.
@@headbangerdnb KOTOR 2 wasn't about subverting expectations. It was simply a different look at the Star Wars universe. Also, it wasn't something new to the EU.
Bioware did do the heavy lifting, yes. But they also took years to make KOTOR 1. Also, they didn't build the engine itself from scratch. Honestly, they didn't do a whole lot of anything. I've seen larger, and better Star Wars universes put together by fans, using the engine's predecessor. Odyssey, the engine that KOTOR 1 and 2 use, is the Aurora engine with very small modifications. It is why it is so easy to take things from KOTOR 1 and 2, and put them into Neverwinter Nights. A game Bioware made before KOTOR 1, that was made with the D20 system (AKA D&D, dice and stuff like that,) and put them straight into Neverwinter Nights.
The largest updates are mostly the graphics engine, and it is only minor tweaks. The character models and what not, actually still run in Neverwinter Nights, for example. At least the heads. The skeleton NWN uses prevents the bodies from being used.
Really, all things considered, Bioware didn't actually have to do a whole lot more than Obsidian did. The major difference is Obsidian had far less time to do so. Whether one thinks the story was better or not, is purely opinion. But mechanically, and in regards to the UI and what not, it is objectively better for sure. Also, as far as the look of gear goes, there is more than twice the number of assets than KOTOR 1 had as well. The fact that KOTOR 2 re-uses many assets is to be expected, considering the stories are tied together.
But there were A LOT of new assets as well.
It's insane how they were able to create such an amazing story, lore, characters... in a very short period of time.
Seriously mindblowing.
@@headbangerdnb go away
The did finish in a mod, because it a mod it does lack the great voice acting
I love Kotor 1/2 & The Old Republic but I do wish they kept Revan and Meetra out of Swtor.
Amen
They cannot keep them out! SWTOR is completely and absolutely a sequel to KOTOR I and II and basically introduces the overarching villain of the entire Old Republic franchise: Darth Vitiate.
The existence of the Sith Emperor is itself simply a revelation that explains what happened to Revan in the Unknown Regions and how the Mandalorian Wars were simply a test orchestrated by the Emperor. Basically, everyone and everything terrible that happened 3960BBY - 3950BBY, Mandalorians, Revan and Malak, and the Purge, was orchestrated by The Immortal Emperor. Everything and everyone was the puppet of the Emperor. It was planned from the start.
They could have made the Exile's death better, but KOTOR I and II were tragedies from the start.
@@pubgplayer1720 swtor’s story was, at the best of times, decent.
@@conebear9291 then they made eternal empire: aka hell of dlc
@@conebear9291 SWTOR's story was decent. But at least way better than most Star Wars games.
I liked Star Wars as a medium before i played KOTOR 2 when it came out, but that game made me fall in love with the universe to the point where it's seeped into my very personality.
KOTOR 2 is a masterpiece and it's a damn shame that it released in an unfinished state.
A masterpiece indeed!
I second this notion
Thank god for the restored content mod
Absolutely the same. I remember picking up the game as a kid, thinking it was some sort of battle arena game. Turned out to be my favourite piece of entertainment ever.
I actually played KOTOR 2 first. My computer at the time had a newer version of windows and wouldn't run KOTOR 1. I bought the 2nd one because of how much everyone had raved about KOTOR 1, and absolutely loved it. Lol, after that I bought an xbox and KOTOR 1 just to play that game 🤣 Of course I really liked it as well, but always felt more attached to KOTOR 2.
Even without the establishment of Revan's character, Exile herself was mistreated as hell. She was capable of forming Force bonds more easily and powerfully, while affected by it more significantly. She had been taught by the person who questions The Force so much that decides to kill it to free the galaxy. She fought against the Sith Lords that no Jedi had faced- pure evil, driven by pure and basic desire, so powerful and dangerous that manipulates others easily, never dies or consumes a hall planet. She brought the Jedi Order from the brink of destruction(and subtley the galaxy) and rebulit it while trying to fix the flaw of the old. She deserved better.
Absolutely.
Revan and Meetra are so important to the history of the galaxy and the Jedi order
Both of them saved the galaxy.
I’ll admit I first liked the novel of Revan because I was just so happy to be reading about it. And for the most part it was good.
And then those last few fucking pages broke my heart
Even the Revan novel did her no justice by keeping secret what made her a powerful Jedi in her own right compared to Revan. On top of that, the novel said that Darth Traya's goal was to destroy the Republic and you and I both know that it is the Force itself she wanted to kill.
Yess, exactly!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻
@@Ghost-ql3hl I respect the Revan novel for tying up the loose ends between KOTOR, KOTOR 2 and SWTOR, and I enjoy playing SWTOR, but one thing I don't understand about the Revan novel is how inconsistent the power of Revan's Force abilities are when he gets his memories back as Darth Revan and his light side and dark side personas synchronize. He is able to destroy Darth Nyriss with absolute ease, but is no match for Vitiate, and in SWTOR, he was defeated by Sith Empire players in The Foundry flashpoint mission which caused his light side persona to become a Force ghost and the dark side persona stayed in his body refusing to die up until the Shadow of Revan expansion, and the Jedi Knight protagonist ended up being the one to defeat Vitiate. I mean, come on! How can a strong but basic Jedi only known for saving Tython from being obliterated succeed where Revan failed???
@@LightStreak567 I guess you played only the Jedi Sentinel, and that is why you think you killed Vitiate, the sentinel only killed a disposable body for the emperor, same as in the sith warrior storyline, you kill another one... Vitiate are litteraly in all of the royal guards on in his citadel, and organisation, all domminated/posessed by him into a hive-mind. The one the sentinel killes in the story is just one of the mor used bodys Vitiate uses throu-out the swtor lore.
If we want to go into semantics, it was part of Vitiate's plan to have the sentinel dispose of that body, so he could go full focus on the eternal empire.
Then again, swtor power scaling CANNOT make sence since the player character is involved in a multiplayer setting
Honestly, I couldn't agree more. Meetra is probably my favorite character in star wars and Idk if anyone here ever watched spacedock but he said something I've always felt. Kotor 2 is kinda better than the franchise its apart of. Not that deconstructions are going off the beaten path stories are always better than the heroes journey foundational types, its just that kotor 2 really shaped for me what the force actually was and the characters' connections to it in a way nothing else ever did, and Meetra is obviously at the center of that. Super agree that they tossed her aside for TOR. When i felt kotor 2 was pushing her on a trajectory for a more satisfying story than just she dies.
Your comment is spot on!
It's as if you reached into my brain. Yes, absolutely. Meetra becomes a sidekick, every other KOTOR 2 character becomes forgotten and the entire KOTOR 2 story is quietly brushed aside. When you read the Revan book, it's very obvious that Drew Karpyshyn never played KOTOR 2 and was only working on cliffnotes. He simply didn't care, perhaps because KOTOR 2 was made by a different studio and by different writers. That same attitude permeated SWTOR and the story (Revan's story) suffered as a result.
The rub is that you are entirely right about the dual protagonist thing. Revan and Meetra are both wonderful characters in their own right, but if thrown at each other properly (romantically or otherwise), they become something extraordinary. Or rather, they would have become something extraordinary. It's an incredible waste.
I don't blame Drew fully. I think he was just pushed into a corner regarding what he could and couldn't do.
It frustrates me so much.. Revan & The Exile could have had an dual protagonist relationship & legacy on the same level as Anakin & Obi-Wan in the Clone Wars.
I ignore SWTOR's story in my head canon, because it destroys what made KOTOR I and II special to me. I don't like Revan being some god-tier overpowered gary stu, I always thought of him as a decently-powerful Sith/Jedi whose strength was his strategic and tactical mind. He always strikes me as the Julius Caesar of the Star Wars universe, he managed to convince his troops to march with him against their own people. To replace the Republic with something he believed would be stronger, to ensure its survival. They ruined it by going hurr durr sith emperor influenced him.
Meetra Surik, I see, as someone having suffered for Revan's glory. Her actions during the Mandalorian wars haunt her. She sought out the council to punish herself for what she felt she did wrong, and took their judgement even though it would not bring her peace. She is, in my opinion, a far more capable combatant than Revan (Hell even the game mechanics confirm this with the level cap difference between K1 and K2), a powerful Jedi made even more so by the nature of being a wound in the force. She was one of Revan's top generals, and fought alongside him through hell with an entrenched and unwavering enemy. They are both very interesting characters to me, and I despise how SWTOR simply brushed them aside like they were nothing.
KREIA is the real victim though. She isn't even so much as fucking mentioned in SWTOR, even though she trained Revan, and the Exile. Kreia is my favorite character in all of Star Wars, I adore her philosophy on the force, and it is such a unique perspective in the Star Wars universe that they simply ignore. Though maybe I should be grateful that they ignored it, instead of ruining it like they did Meetra.
@@100StarWars Was he? No, he was only chasing single goal of making money on Darth Revan that kids loved that much. Those kids just didn't understand Kotor 2, for them the game happened to be too much deep. And let me share one dirty little secret... nobody pushed the devs to release till Christmas. The real reason is that they were arguing about the story. Some of them as did Drew felt that Revan might bring money and the others were trying to tell true Kotor story with its true protagonist which is no Revan and no Exile. They were fighting about that and since the publisher supported the moneymakers group, the other group just refused to work. That was the reason why they cut the game and actually threw it away as a junk. They knew that Star Wars fans were kids and they did not need such stories, they needed only Revan. But still you may find it, if you would look for it, true Kotor story they were telling you. Thanks for the vid.
@@SherlockHolmes000 Well, actually Kotor 2 devs didn't plan on making the sequel. From the beginning it was Kreia that stood behind the mandalorians attacks to the Outer Rim. Revan was a true Jedi that went to war to protect others ("Jedi don't really serve The Republc", The Exile. That was not about The Republic but the people alone). Then during the wars Revan realized the she was being tricked and that The Council was right about that threat hidden (let us trust the game's canon above all; Atton considers Revan to be a woman by default). Finding Trayus Academy on Malachor Revan believed that threat to be of Sith origin. So she diceded to pretend a Dark Lord. That was the sacrifice Kreia was telling about. Revan kidnapped and converted as many Jedi (and even soldiers that were force sensitive) as she could to place them under her rule only (to save them in a way). Waging war agaisnt The Republic and Jedi Order Revan thought that those "Siths" must reveal themselves, unmask their presense and true identity to aid destroying the Jedi. But that was a mistake for they were no "Sith" and "Sith is a belief... and there is no Sith Empires", Kreia. Then the Jedi Order interrupted Revan's tactic by taking her in custody. The Order committed a crime with her mind, having it broken. That was desperate act that showed their true nature, their corruption. They made Revan to be their pawn. Revan finds the Star Forge, defeats Malak and then remembers of that threat, remembers of Darth Nihilus spawned by the deaths at Malachor. Since Revan is a woman, Bastila dies, so the Council cannot locate Revan through her. Revan makes some preparations (instructions for Carth and Canderous and maybe manufacturing GOTO before that) and returns to Malachor to her first Master and there she REFUSES to pursue Kreia's goals. Kreia would never tell you what she did to Revan since Revan became a symbol of redemption and hope, people needed Revan considered alive and still fighting. Meanwhile Jedi Order collapses and going mad. They desperately obsessed with what stood behind the Mandolorians, they go to Katar to do rituals that could let them see through the Force and locate that "threat". The images of the Exile and Malachor V were visioned to them. So the remnants of Jedi Order as well as Kreia decide to use The Exile as a beacon to hunt each other. I don't even start to talk about the Exile. Just a few facts. Male (he went to war choosing Revan as his Master instead of Atris which was going to take him as her first Padawan), a warrior and not really strong Force User (Vrook says: ..."mediocre Jedi...", Wandar says: "... average student of the Force..."), not relying on The Force ("There is greatness in you, yet it stems not from The Force, it stems from who you are", Visas) and "a natural leader" as Wandar claims him to be. I could debate on the subject of his connection to The Force. Vrook, the only Jedi Master we can trust in the ways of The Force, says "I feel nothing"... so maybe The Exile do not really reestablish his connection but using the Force through Kreia. The most interesting lies ahead... play the game with care and you will find it.
Literally turned Meetra is into Revan’s sidekick with a jealous crush😂😂😂
while partialy yes, most of what the revan novel does, is the same as kotor2 did with revan in 1, just a way worse job. In the book, we are not folowing the exile we play in kotor 2. we are folowing what will become the exile, and then it goes off rails with her character.
we hear alot of her from before kotor 1, while in the war, the problem is after that, they have the story sett in the direction of revan being on drummond kas, and here is where everything becomes meh. Her character upp till that point is mostly just average storytelling, but the beginning was still strong with the retelling of the war.
I enjoyed my time in TOR, but the way that Bioware treated the Exile in that game was absolutely disgraceful. I strongly got the impression that Bioware were jealous that Obsidian created such a great character, companions and story, and this is why they did what they did.
That’s what they get for selling out to them because they would rather do jade empire and dragon age.
@@Mike1064abTo be fair, Dragon Age Origins was a really good game, and so was Jade Empire.
Well actually it was Mass Effect. Not Dragon Age. A lot of Kotor’s DNA is in Mass Effect
Nah, it's just different eras and different people writing the same characters. Trying to attribute malice or add drama to it is very silly.
found that obsidian fan. Bethesda was jealous, Bioware was jealous, what's next? Microsoft is jealous? stop making up drama that doesn't exist in the first place.
The ONLY thing I disagree with in this video is the decision to make Vitiate the reason for Revan's fall being less important than it actually is. It's a significant alteration and it really undermines Revan's agency and the impact of his sacrifice. It's the difference between a sacrifice and a fall. Revan chose his path to make the Republic stronger, to prepare. Forcing him into that role takes away from that.
Otherwise really enjoyed the video, would love a more detailed one. KotOR 2 really doesnt get the recognition it deserves, especially being the basis for Revan as we know him and as how he is interpreted by fans, especially avid fans, of his character.
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Thank you. Meetra Surik needs more love.
I really hope the Surik gets a better end in canon, IF she is ever canonized or expanded upon, which I doubt the more I think about it.
Eh... judging by the precedents(cough Thrawn cough) I'm in doubt that would be possible...
@@blackhand1193 true true
@@blackhand1193 What do you mean? Thrawn is good in canon
@@orbaitv5991 I will take that as a joke.
@@blackhand1193 Someone has never watch Rebels on read the new Zahn books.
It was chris avellones design for exiles part in all the conflicts that they had taken part in for to have been overshadowed and forgotten by history thus cannon would have been that they could have either been male or female, in essence just a forgotten sacrifice in endless wars that galaxy continues to endure due to forces existance and of course kreias hope that galaxy could rid itself of force to also have died whit exiles memory. The meetra surik cannon actually came from outside kotor 2 design team and considering how they dragged the charachter trough the mud in revan novel and swtor, personally i prefer original intent.
Also as avellone was laying ground work for kotor 3 that would have had the plot that galaxy is actually much larger than republic lets the public know, as if galaxy would know that the galaxy they know is mearly around one tenth of the whole would lead to expansion and whit jedi being their primary way of policing galaxy and jedi of course being unsuited to solve the political, economic, Imegration and population control disasters that they are usually called to solve, thus senate at some point decidead to encourage the dogma that the known galaxy is the whole galaxy, as adding more planets to the republic would only fracture republic further.
Of course what would have dominated the rest of the galaxy was supposed to be the expansionist sith empire ruled by council of sith that in their lifetimes had achived sith ideal of godhood, each in their own way. Revan would have met this empire of gods when hunting for the reson that sparked mandalorian neo crusades, forgotten it due to jedi council brainwashing, but regained enogh of his memory after kotor 1 and left to confront this threath. Apperantly revan would have been willing to destroy this threath at any cost and when exile would reach him they would have become crucial to revans plans. Story was supposed to explore the sith as deeply as kotor 2 explored the failings of the jedi, also it was supposed to bring to conclusion what avellone started whit kreia character and the idea that the force is a antaganistic force in the galaxy. Ending fight would have been at the end of the galaxy optional against revan, if player had chosen that the exile had sacrificed enogh and allowed exile to return to galaxy to start a life of peace in assumable galaxy where force had been killed of in revans schemes. Its honestly a shame that we got mmo i insteed.
Kotor 2 was the first one I played, so when I played the first one the twist actually blew me away. Having the context of the mandalorian wars, revenge, etc. it made this series one of my all time favorites
It's definitely my favorite!
It’s also interesting how the Jedi council is so forgiving, even welcoming you might say- of Revan, even if only using him towards their own ends; While the exile is outright condemned and endlessly judged for simply doing what she thought was right and following Revan to take the fight to the Mandalorians.
I agree that the problem with SWTOR is that Meetra Surrik becomes barely an afterthought...which does as you've said, bastardized The Jedi exile when she did so much for th ed galaxy in her own right in her Heroine 's Journey.
This wasn't SWTOR's fault this is the Revan novel's fault.
@@nuancedhistory yes, though the Revan Novel itself (a tie in to the game) was developed by the developers of Star Wars The Old Republic. Still the same issue
@@GabrielMcKnight It likely has to do with that Bioware didn't develop the character of the Jedi Exile. Bioware didn't make KotOR2.
@@darththeo absolutely. So they treated her as a character that wasn't there creation, so an afterthought with the main emphasis on their previous work of KOTOR .
@@GabrielMcKnight It was done by Drew Karpyshyn, who initially worked on SWTOR but Revan's in-game story wasn't done by his hand.
KOTOR 2 cemented Revan's legacy and brilliance in the era of the Old Republic. While the first game may have made him, KOTOR 2 defined who he truly was. A long with creating one of the best character's ever written in SW history, Kreia.
The relationship between Kreia and The Exile is on another level. So many little nuances and lessons to learn, not just in the game but perhaps in real life too. The fact that somebody so broken in The Exile could come and help so many around her find purpose & better their lives absolutely touched me. That their is redemption for our actions, that the right man in the wrong places can make all the difference, that seeing absolute power and shunning it was TRUE power... My respect for the character of The Exile was elevated beyond anything else in the SW universe. I can honestly say that my life & the person I am today was greatly shaped by this ''Masterpiece'' & it's one I shall never, ever forget.
Everything you just said is exactly the reasons why Meetra Surik is one of my favorite Star Wars characters ever.
The sith empire in kotor 2 seemed like such an enigmatic and mysterious entity powerful beyond our belief and anything that's come before
The hype was unreal
I miss kotor and I wish they made a third
no it didn't lol, its completly opposite the sith in KOTOR seem like pure evil fools that are barely existing and then you finish them off as the exile, SWTOR has THE Sith Empire a massive benemoth spanning across thousand worlds and usually defeating the republic and everything else.
@@ericpaunovic3579 dude, that's what they were saying, the Sith Empire (the one that Revan left in search of) was enigmatic and mysterious in TSL. The Sith Empire in TOR was a joke. It's really surprising it managed to take over most of the known galaxy.
Tbf that mystery is what makes it so great.
It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect (which they definitely stole from kotor 2) where they were so intriguing in the 1st and even the 2nd installment, but once they arrived in ME3 they quickly became generic and you were destroying them planet after planet.
Sometimes you should keep the mystery all powerful bad guys, the all powerful mysterious bad guys
Kreia to Jedi exile- "I would have killed the galaxy to preserve you"
Revan to Jedi exile- "Nice knowing ya!" *stab*
That's not even remotely close to what happened but go off
@@enoch2066 Sorry I realised that you're right. That was Scourge who did that not Revan
@@Funinightmare either way it was a disgraceful way to treat the exile's character
@@aamirrazak3467 Yeah I think so too.
As much as I love Revan, Meetra was the reason for his character to become so interesting, not just in context of how he was written but in lore too. Without her there would be no Malachor V and without Malachor V there would be no great and horrible tragedy that defined Revan as a Villain, no creation of Darth Nihilus and no heart wretching character action that forever haunted the jedi exile
Without Meetra Surik there would be no story like Kotor 2 and I don't know about you, but there was never a more personal story in star wars ever told like this one.
Darth Revan may have been a great character, but he would not be what he is without Kreia or Meetra. To toss her aside as a plot device to defeat the emperor is extremely poor choice and honestly doesn't thematically line up with what Kotor 2 could have brought us if we had got Kotor 3 instead of Swtor
@@Funinightmare I agree 100% I’d have much rather gotten KOTOR 3 than SWTOR I wanted to see Revan and the exile team up to defeat the true Sith as Avellone described them (not vitiate). It was a waste of her character, her awesome story and lore from KOTOR 2 and a terrible way to end things. Without KOTOR 2 and it’s events and story, specifically that of the Exile, Revan is not nearly as legendary or mythic a figure
Kotor 2 is literally my favorite Star Wars story and has some of my favorite characters. Also, I 100% agree that Kotor 2 actually fleshes out the story of Revan and him as a character.
same its my favorite game ever. and i love how it builds up revan as a character and enhances his mystique
@@aamirrazak3467 Exactly!
In Kotor 1, you see Revan as the one who changes everything around him/her. In Kotor 2, he is like a legendary... legend. The Exile becomes the hero/villain who changes everything around him/her (I do not care about their sexuality/genders for this discussion). It would have been lovely to have a Kotor 3 where you see the Exile having the same impact/image, like how Revan had in Kotor 1. Yes, they are different, but the Exile has his/her own struggles and achievements.
I hate the Revan novel. It butchered the awesomeness established in Kotor 2.
As for SWTOR, I wish it was singleplayer. The stories and quests there are brilliant, but I want to play them without a jackass messing my gameplay. Maybe the Emperor and Revan plots in SWTOR are something I could have lived without in my life. I also did not like how they treated the Exile in SWTOR. Revan created bonds that lasted many years, and so did the Exile by the end of Kotor 2.
The revan novel is the true offender.
I still see the Exile as male. But regardless, both he/she and Revan deserved to be treated better, especially in that novel.
@@FuryanJedi13 If The Exile were female we would need male Atris then. We just can't loose Atris as a character! She's too important for the story. It's Revan who is female. That the Game's canon. Atton believes Revan to be a woman by default. So screw that novel.
@@highbird4986 Nope, Revan's definitely a guy. His relationship with Bastila is WAY too important. It's also one of my top ships.
@@FuryanJedi13 Forget about Bastila. She was weak as was Anakin. Strong in the Force but weak as person. She fell to the dark side so Revan had to kill her. Revan's relationships with Carth is far more ... beautiful.
Hit the nail on the head. Rvan is a great character. But that's only because of Kotor 2. But even so, the Exile, and what she represented, is infinitely more consequential to the entire Star Wars universe. Also I think you've done videos like this before and I told you this already. This felt scripted. You're really good at this.
Always feels weird doing unscripted stuff
Dope video and I totally agree. Revan's mystique and the greatness of the KOTOR saga is established by KOTOR 2, and how it builds up and adds to the lore and story of the first game, fleshing it out more and considering the consequences of it. The Revan novel first started the undermining of KOTOR 2's story and build up, which was fully realized in SWTOR, because the novel was just a swtor tie in. I hated how it ignored KOTOR 2's story, and made the Exile a boring, generic Jedi character who is eliminated in a lame way. It's such a damn shame. KOTOR 2 is my favorite game of all time, and KOTOR is second, and all the great lore established in those two games was wasted by SWTOR. I still hold out hope we can get the KOTOR 3 obsidian was working on, the KOTOR games, and the exile and Revan, deserve a conclusion to their stories.
While it is everyone's dream... concerning what had happened with Obsidian's staffs during these days I'm in doubt anyone would be possible to do so...
@@blackhand1193 yeah it’s a shame I heard they are not the same anymore. Plus Avellone is banned from making games as far as I can tell it’s so sad
We'll see what happens for the future.
@@100StarWars for sure. I still hold out hope for a KOTOR 3 made by obsidian one day
What conclusion? Revan refuses to pursue Kreia's goals and Kreia breaks her. The Exile killing Kreia cuts himself from The Force once again and that no one can survive twice so he dies with her. What conclusion do you want? This story is about KREIA and it is finished. Who kids and fools go read some Revan Novels. There Revan would live forever fighting some Sith terminator.
This is a common myth, the Revan novel by Drew Karpyshyn (the writer of KOTOR 1) was what destroyed Revan's and Meetra's characters, not SWTOR. SWTOR tried to *salvage* it.
And Meetra Surik's naming and gender were coined in Star Wars Insider, not SWTOR.
Both the book and the game ruined the characters
@@ThrawnaDelRey Ruined Meetra, Actually did Justice to Revan.
How does it try to save it? The book was literally built as a foundation to support their stories in SWTOR - that is not salvaging to me.
@@100StarWars The Game salvaged Revan, not the novel.
@@Nephalem2002 can you explain to me why you think how Book/SWTOR version Revan did justice to KOTOR Revan? In my opinion, nearly all of KOTOR Revan's depth and personality is lost and replaced by something COMPLETELY different and shallow. The only torable part of that book to me is the Canderous subplot at the beginning.
SWTOR was my first introduction to the EU. I love the game. It was a long time after that that i learned about KOTOR games. And i loved these games as well. As someone who loves SWTOR...i have to say that it is indeed a poor continuation of KOTOR 2. It has great World Building, well written stories and characters and i loved the nods it made to KOTOR. However...bringing Revan and Meetra themselves in the game....was the biggest story telling mistake the game has ever made. To this day i do not like how SWTOR used these 2. It was a greedy marketing move and a very bad one. I love SWTOR, will support it but as a loyal fan i will point out its biggest flaw.
Finally someone who sees the importance of meetra.
she's a really significant and underrated character tbh
Yes and if you do then stop calling the Exile a woman. It's Revan who was a woman. That is the game's canon and that is undeniable.
@@highbird4986 it literally isnt
@@highbird4986 Revan was never a woman and the Exile was never a man
@@lukescrew1981 Play the games carefully. Don't read stupid Drew's bullshit.
While I doubt Bioware will ever acknowledge it, I have this suspicion that one reason why the Exile was basically thrown under the bus in the Revan novel and the SWTOR story (at least she came back for Echoes of Oblivion), is because she is not a character of Bioware origin. KOTOR 2 wasn't developed by Bioware, but was given to Obsidian because Bioware was too busy with developing their own IPs, Dragon Age and Mass Effect.
I do not know if there is an issue of royalties or if it is something as simple as arrogance on Bioware's part that made them not want to devote any time to the Exile, or references to KOTOR 2 in general. KOTOR 1 was a brilliant game, but I stand by saying that KOTOR 2, because of its writing, surpassed it by a long shot. To think this game was developed in less than a year, and still be so good (although you have to bring back a lot of content via mods), I shudder to think what KOTOR 2 could have been had it been given the proper development time.
Obsidian didn't develop KOTOR 2 because Bioware was too busy with their own IPs. That's kind of a part of it, but the real reason as confirmed by Bioware themselves is that Lucas Arts wanted a sequel made and released in 1 year. Bioware felt that wasn't enough time to make a quality game so they didn't want their name attached to it and passed it on to Obsidian, then they went on to make their own IPs. In the end they were right because all though Obsidian did amazing, maybe even better than Bioware would have, but the game released in a buggy and unfinished state with a ton of content removed. Some of that content isn't even in the files and it's lost forever.
I don't think royalties would have been a problem, since both games were factually owned by LucasArts. I'm saying BioWare was just petty that Obsidian's broken sequel was still a better game.
You just summarized all that me and my friend have been saying about the Exile post Kotor 2! I think the author of the Revan book was also very involved in the scenario of Kotor 1 and SWTOR, and either they didn't play Kotor 2 either they got so offended by Chris Avellone and his team's work that they decided to erase it. And it's sad to see that the conclusion of Kotor 2 and the new Jedi Order are doomed to failure in the 300 years before SWTOR, to the point where no one remembers who the Exile was.
It's great to see people are still doing KOTOR related content, thank you so much !
Crazy how the kotor games are basically the same as the sequels, but these are of far superior quality.
The first installment a typical star wars heroes journey story, with Force Awakens being generic and soulless, kotor 1 was creative and gave things their own twist
Last jedi/kotor 2 were some guy coming along and wanting to do things differently and give their own critique on the in world universe, with Last Jedi being badly written and lacking much depth, kotor 2 was unique, deep and brought even more creativity than the next.
The third installments being scrapped, kotor 3 and the original episode 9 both were cancelled, and instead replaced by a product made by the same ppl who made the first one, with them going back and retroactively changing stuff the 2nd installment did - although SWTOR benefitted from kotor 2 greatly, ep 9 suffered from ep 8
I've always loved KOTOR2 better, but largely due to mechanics and the more organic story flow. But Revan never "fell" to the Dark Side. It was originally canon that he CHOSE the Dark Side.
'The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult'
The Exile being a loyal sidekick to Revan is a total misunderstanding of Kotor 2. There are a lot of implications in the game that the Exile never really got along well with Revan or at the very least didn't know him well. There's the fact that the Exile was the only Jedi under Revan who came back instead of following him, then whenever Kreia talks about Revan, there's never really an option that allows you to say, "hey, I know all of that." The impression we get is that the Exile is learning more about Revan just as we are learning about Revan. When the Exile expresses the reasons for why he fought the Mandalorians, there are no options for you to say that you joined the Mandalorian wars out of loyalty to Revan, matter of fact, the person who made that pitch to the Exile was Malak not Revan. Then the final piece of evidence comes from HK 47 where he explains how Malachor V wasn't really about defeating the Mandalorians, but instead was Revan's way to use the Mass Shadow Generator to break or kill the Jedi who weren't fully loyal to him. The Jedi who were sent there were those that Revan deemed to be disloyal and untrustworthy, and it just so happens that the person leading them is the Exile.
Damn man are you freaking ME??? Cause this is 100% EXACTLY how I feel and understand the game! I was looking so forward to the relationship between The Exile & Revan... Not as an loyal fangirl/fanboy of Revan but somebody who questioned his choices and was cautious and weary of his true intentions and potential but being forced to come together to battle The True Sith.
@@coinkidink9997 yeah I’m glad I’m not the only who noticed this. It just feels like Drew Karpyshyn thought that because Revan and the Exile were both protagonists that must mean they got along and were totally friends.
Damn, that's actually a very good take. 🤯🤯🤯
The Hero's Journey is a Plot Development Framework. The Heroine's Journey is a Character Development Framework.
Actually, it's a gender swapped title. The Hero's Journey is JUST as much about character development. It doesn't matter what you have between your legs. A hero is a hero, is a sandwich. Same thing. Character growth can be shown in different senses, but it's important to a good story no matter the gender. Treating either as different because of gender does both a disservice. The Hero may be more action focused in order to attain character growth; but that doesn't mean there's a lack in development. Nor does it mean as you've unintentionally implied, that a female hero has to be more passive/introverted.
@@TheRavenShadowsWolf Here here. Well said my friend.
KoTOR 1 does not need KoTOR 2 to stand on it’s own as a phenomenal game. Revan has plenty of buildup in the game and you learn much of Revan’s impact through supporting characters and NPCs. KoTOR 2 is a great game in its own right, and SWTOR does screw with the exile’s character, but you need to give the first game the credit it deserves.
Yeah, but then you'd have to admit that both games can stand on their own and that there are other developers out there that have some good writing teams even with AAA corporate publishers, and that's apparently just not allowed if you like any Obsidian/Black Isle games 😏
Yeah I was really unhappy when he just dismissed the first game outright, hell it even STARTED the KoTOR trend of criticizing the Jedi as a religious order via Jolee Bindo, who was basically like a less cynical and less Machiavellian Kreia. KoTOR 2 does add on to the story as any good sequel should, but they both stand on their own as great games.
Thanks for opening my eyes about this. This is a really needed video about KOTOR 2, usually everyone bashes it but don't realize how much of an impact it had. I do love SWTOR and I also did recognize the lack of representation of the exile in it but I didnt think to much on it. Glad you made this video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Both are incredible imo, but that’s just me
I'm not trying to say the game is bad by any means. I enjoy both too!
Kotor II was like the empire strikes back of the Kotor series. I can't imagine what a proper third game would have been like, I'd have definitely coughed $60 on that..
Except for the man-eating teddy-bears.
Now imagine if "The Entity" from the Sith Warrior story was confirmed as Kreia's ghost...
Thought it already was.
@@xoulmannn No, just some loose hints from the one that wrote the Warrior story, but nothing confirmed in the story itself or any guide, as far as the EU goes, she died in KOTOR II and that's it.
There's barely any information on The Entity itself, what it is, where it came from, etc.
Revan with fan immunity, Meetra "who's that?" Surik and Kreia"Dark Grandma" The Entity, now that's the real dark triumvirate .
or is it abeloth?
@@bitchface235 That is actually brilliant, Abeloth x Vitiate confirmed???
100% agree with this, especially the commentary about the Exile's story truly establishing Revan's legacy beyond player projection. Part of why I loved kotor 2 so much was that no matter how you played Revan in the first game, light or dark, the far-reaching consequences of Revan's actions are undeniable, which Kreia emphasizes several times. The Jedi Exile returned to the Council to be judged for her actions where Revan never truly faces any such consequences despite having been a major catalyst in the events of both games and beyond, and to have the Exile die like she did makes Revan's lasting legacy almost feel undeserved. Especially when, as you said, the Exile is credited with rebuilding the Jedi Order and actually cleaning up Revan's messes and is never given any credit for it, not even a measly reference other than acting as a prop for Revan. Making her canonically female was great when I heard the news, but to see her character go on to only fangirl over Revan and then unceremoniously die without having been treated as the true co-protagonist she is, it also cheapens her character overall. Like oh, *of course* a female Exile would have been in love with Revan and dropped literally everything she had going on (which was just her cleaning up after the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars, which if anything should be Revan's responsibility) to sacrifice everything she had regained during the course of kotor 2 to again blindly follow Revan to the ends of the galaxy and for what?
I remember the nature of Revan being the heart of the Force and the Exile the wound in the Force being a point of great discussion on the old kotor forums when we all still hoped a kotor 3 was in the works, and looking back a lot of the ideas tossed around there were worlds ahead of what we got with the Revan novel and the SWTOR dlcs. Not to mention, that kotor 2 concepts overall were pretty cool and I'll always be disappointed that they were rarely ever mentioned or referenced again (namely Kreia, who is by far one of my favorite SW characters of all time, or even the mere concepts of Eldritch horror level Sith, Nihilus and Sion - honestly the entire Sith Triumvirate paired with Kreia's philosophy re: the Force itself would be so fascinating to explore but it doesn't seem like SW wants to go in this sort of direction again...).
Aside from that, I also think it's a weird move to canonize characters that were previously customizable, because you're never going to be able to create a version that satisfies each player's very personal experience of either games, ultimately leading to some dissatisfaction no matter what. The fact that they made canon Revan kind of boring IMO but to have also effectively erased the themes established in the second game and bastardized the Jedi Exile as a character completely, no matter how you played that character, will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. I actually started writing a fix-it fic out of spite for what they did with the "canon" versions of these characters but only so far as to give my version of the Exile some justice, at least before Disney tries their hand at it which media outlets constantly infer with increasingly click-baity articles😅
i appreciate the idea of swtor story being set like 300 or something years after the kotor games so there is as much free original story as there can be, but i still think what everyone wanted was a kotor 3
Honestly what a well thought out and well written video. No conjecture, no hyperbole, no shade throwing and bashing of TOR just an open analysis of how TOR impacted the Kotor Story and its perception.
I've always thought that the character of Revan is basically just a reflection of the player in Kotor 1, not until Kotor 2 is their actions and choices given meaning and their character context.
Kotor 1 lay the seeds of the character, their look, mysteriousness, legendary status and that they may not truly belong to neither the light nor dark.
Kotor 2 expands on every single one of those aspects, either by experiencing the aftermath the events Revan was vital to or from 1st, 2nd or even 3rd hand accounts of their antics or even a look at Revan's thought process through Kreia.
Hell Kotor 2 is responsible for Revan even having his now trademark purple lightsaber (and duel wielding sabers) since his apparition on Korriban is the first time he ever wielded one.
The lack of Reven in Kotor 1 was what struck me when I first played it. After hearing and reading all the Revan hype I thought he was going to be a central character and it did confuse when I played. None the less the established character of Revan is great but the Excile has an amazing character arc which is very underrated, perhaps because of swtor.
All we can do is pray that the new Kotor Remake does well enough to warrant a Kotor II remake, and then, finally we shall have our rev- cough - wrong game. A chance at Kotor III as it should of been to retcon the Revan novel and swtor's grandiose mistakes in the handling of these characters
just accept the fact SWTOR is continuation and a great game.
But if swtor is retconed even other things that have reference would be lost? Plagueis novel has a vitiate reference for example...
I love KOTOR2 and it's my favorite of the two games, but I think you're overlooking a key point of the two. Meetra Surik's story was personal and so her impacts were also smaller and more personal. There would be pockets of folks who might remember her, but in the overall scheme of the galactic narrative she didn't have a huge impact. She was Revan's general and loyal right hand but not much more. Even at the end of KOTOR2 she leaves to follow him which is a point you left out of this video. She chose to follow him before the book or swtor was made, so they only reflect what happened in KOTOR2. And if you ever played the KOTOR2 TSLRP then you would know this even more. As someone who also had the toolset for the game, I got to see all of the cut content that didn't make it into the game, and as Kreia tells Meetra, she would be forgotten to time. This was the prophecy, so swtor in essence is fulfilling Kreia's prophecy regarding Meetra.
The exile did have a massive impact on the galaxy though. The exile saved all life in the galaxy from Nihilus, stopped Kreia from causing the end of the force, stopped the sith, saved the Republic from dying, revived the Jedi Order into a new direction, and completely changed the criminal syndicate economy. Regardless if she was eventually forgotten to time, and Bioware butchering the story, her impact was massive.
KOTOR 1 and 2 are games that serve a story, SWTOR is a game served by its story.
Unfortunately characters being snubbed is something that predates the Disney era.
Not to the same degree, but it's there nonetheless.
RIP Meetra Surik.
RIP Meetra indeed.
Isn’t that the entire point of Her story to do good without expecting glory or fame
KOTOR 2 is and will always be my favorite STAR WARS game.
11:28: Ah, the Manaan theme. So soothing.
I get the feeling KOTOR 2 was largely ignored because it introduced characters that asked or raised some rather inconvenient questions about the formulaic narrative of Star Wars. So it was safer to just retcon the likes of the Exile, and straight up erase huge troublemakers like Kreia. I recall several years ago there were some people claiming KOTOR 2 had no right to deconstruct Star Wars like it did and that there are some core aspects of the franchise that should never be questioned of examined; which is kind of funny since KOTOR 2 was all about not believing in things blindly and questioning things. Not to mention Revan wouldn't be half as great as he is without the build up and mystery KOTOR 2 gave him.
I've said it before... after all the sith lords Meetra defeated and future Jedi she trained... she's finally done in by bad/lazy writing. I've more or less pretended everything after the second game did not happen.
Meetra is my favourite Star Wars character and seeing genuine appreciation for her is good to see. I'm a little surprised though, that you didn't also touch on how the MMO destroyed Darth Nihilus.
Thank You! Meetra is my favorite Star Wars character of all time and I can’t tell you how much it hurt when she was nothing more but a side kick to Revan and instead of being his equal they make her Revans “student”
A empathic great warrior with her own life and legacy was completely ruined by Swotor and instead of letting her be happy with Michael they just killed her off like she was nothing
You’re ABSOLUTELY correct
;)
The simple difference: Obsidian took the task of understanding what BioWare was doing. But BioWare never tried to see what Obsidian did, only taking small pieces that liked the fans.
obsidian knows how to make a story.
(IF IT WAS CREATED IN JUST 18< MONTHS)
When I first entered SWTOR 9 years ago (I joined when the game went F2P), the burning question in my mind was regarding what happened to Meetra, Atton, Mira, Bao-Dur, T3, Canderous (Mandalore the Preserver), Mical (Disciple), Brianna Kae (Handmaiden), Visas, and HK-47. I was disappointed to find out they were not even mentioned. I am curious to find out if Darth Mar is a descendant of Visas, but even that is a footnote. I have discovered two gathering missions that reference Master Mical, and Bao-Dur; which is still a footnote to their impact. When I read "Revan," I learned how T3 was destroyed, and how Meetra died and expected more out of that. Yet she remained as a ghost for 300 years to encourage and give Revan strength from the force to sustain him during his captivity. On Corellia the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk during KOTOR 1, are honored with statues. The crew of the Ebon Hawk in KOTOR 2 are not honored in that way. Thank you for this video.
yes. Yes. YES. YEEEEEEEEEEEES. Thank god this video finally exists
Really great video, yes, TOR and the book really did the Exile dirty, but I really do feel what TOR and the book did to Revan was a betrayal of the character established in KOTOR 2. They handled two great characters with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer and as you pointed out, totally overlooked the companions from KOTOR 2, these are the "Lost Jedi" that rebuilt the Jedi Order, they are important! Yet not a peep about them...such a shame.
Thank you for making this video. I’m old enough to remember when Revan/The Exile’s story was just KOTOR 1+2. We had to wait 7 whole years to find out what happened next and I can’t tell you how disappointed a lot of people were when Bioware announced SWTOR as an MMO. It just didn’t feel like the same universe or the same characters. And don’t get me started on those dumbass books.
You're welcome! That disappoint was the same for many of us :(
While I agree that the Exile's portrayal as just another follower of Revan is far from true to her character, I disagree that the focus towards Revan rather than both the Exile and Revan was a bad thing.
Revan is the prodigal knight, the face of the Mandalorian wars and the Jedi Civil War. KOTOR 1 portrays a galaxy in total war, and Revan is at the heart of the conflict and by the end of the war, a hero. KOTOR 2 shows a galaxy that is licking it's wounds and recovering from the skirmishes of the first. However, the war taking place in KOTOR 2 is a war in the shadows, with the Exile and the Jedi constantly trying to out-manoeuvre the Sith and vice versa, all while the galaxy is just trying to get by. Nihilus striking at Katarr and the events that lead to it, Goto's conversation with the exile, the Jedi masters in hiding, all demonstrate just how covert this war is.
There was no grand celebration at the end of KOTOR 2, there was no hero's triumph. But rather a bittersweet end to a conflict that most people in the galaxy had no idea was taking place. The Exile being forgotten to history and sidelined by Revan reflects this. While the ramifications of her actions are many and are large, like in real life, there are many people who influence the World in great ways, yet we know not their name. The story and history of the Exile are carried by few.
Nevertheless, great video, you earned a sub :)
I agree with you. To me, having the Exile be the hero in the shadows, someone who had a major impact in the galaxy but never got true recognition for it and ultimately dies a tragic death actually adds to the character. It makes the character even more of a foil to Revan.
Ever since the days of the mandalorian wars Revan was this great hero, this larger than life figure who etched his name into galactic history multiple times. However, without the Exile, his actions would've been for nothing because Nihlus and Scion would've destroyed both the Jedi and the Republic.
It even ties into KOTOR 2 being a darker game than 1. The Exile doesn't become a galactic legend, instead, to the end, the Exile would be a hero in the shadows, a soldier working to safeguard the galaxy from behind the scenes. At the same time being different and the same from Revan.
I agree with you, except for one thing: since the Exile _is_ featured in the novel as a secondary protagonist, she definitely deserved much better treatment than being a substitute protagonist for two chapters and then becoming a side-kick. It was just bad writing.
Glory and homage, a jedi seeks not these things.
I will never forgive how much of a jobber they made the Exile...
The Exile who literally soloed an entire Sith Academy, singlehandedly defeated the remnant Sith forces of Revan/Malak's empire, defeated and killed an unkillable Sith who has slaughtered Jedi since before the Exar Kun War, killed a Sith (arguably more of a dark side entity) that ate entire worlds, and the master of the 3 aforementioned Sith who managed to wave her hand and cut the force off from 3 Jedi Council Members.
They turned that Exile into a total jobber and Revan c-sucker...
Let's also not forget how the Exile as stated by the council literally feeds off the experience and energy of those that they kill... even as shown if go Darkside route where literally showcased how steal energies, experience and fighting styles of the Masters.
1:49
Respectfully, I think you are being VERY uncharitable to the original game, while yes it does follow the heroes journey, the heroes journey is not the story itself, just the mechanism someone uses to tell a story. It's kind of disingenuous to make it seem as though the original KoTOR doesn't stand out in it's story or characters just because it doesn't go about being dark and deconstructionist like the second game is, especially when the second game relies on the first's story and characters.
Revan is loved more then the Exile simply because we got to play the Lord of the Sith and had the chance to retake our throne.
Exile is cool, does cool things. Isn't Lord of Sith cool, plus Raven is arguably 100x more important than the Exile, not only did he stop the Mandalorian when no one else was willing, he rooted out the Sith in the unknown regions, then led a blood line so powerful and successful it left a giant mark on the galaxy.
The Exile is literally only a reflection character of those in her crew. Unlike Revan who exists as his own Character, Light or Dark.
The Exile is literally no one at all if the people in her crew don't exist. She is not a character, shes a reflection
I'd say that the Exile is more like a binding tape or magnet. She found the Lost Jedi and it is because of her that the Jedi Order were able to be rebuilt. Although, to be fair, not every Jedi was lost. I mean Bastilla survived the Purge. But I guess the Exile is the reason the Jedi Order in the movies exist. The Lost Jedi rebuilt the Order and the surviving Jedi rallied behind them. I really wish we could have gotten a KOTOR 3. A real KOTOR 3...and Hell, it could still happen. SWTOR takes place a good 300 something years after KOTOR 2. So KOTOR 3 could feature the events between SWTOR and KOTOR 2.
It's the other way around. The Exile is the standard to which the crew tests themselves against.
If the Exile is an ideal Jedi, then their crewmates follow that path and become the new Jedi Order. Hell, even Canderous grows less dark. While if the Exile is a Sith at heart, they can corrupt their teammates to the darkside.
If you believe that the Jedi Exile has no character you must replay KOTOR 2, 2 has so many dialogue options with detail and backstory driven behind the words that simply don't exist in 1. The Exile is a fleshed out character in KOTOR 2 alone, you can read their regrets or their certainty about the Mandalorian wars in all the Dialogue options, how can you say Revan, who has no defined personality in KOTOR 1, who is essentially a faceless Sith Lord, has a sturdier existence as a character without what we learn of them in KOTOR 2 and through the Exile's journey?
@@theentity1839
I've logged 441 hours on KotOR1 and 387 hours on KotoR 2, i've played them enough to have a valid opinion.
Revan has an established, well-defined backstory and character before you even wake up on the Endar Spire, You're choices are about Which version of Revan you'll regress back into. His Companions; other than Bastila; have no bearing whatsoever on who Revan is. Canderous Knows of Revan; thats it. Jolee knows you are Revan, but is inconsequential. HK has no impact on you being Revan and only offers more backstory; well after you unlock the memories.
The Exile; Every companion; besides the droids and Kreia; change their identity based upon the decisions of the player. When its only because of: Visas Marr, Kreia; Bao-dur and Atris that you even know much about who the Exile is to begin with.
IF these characters lied to you; your identity changes; if these characters words about you were misinformed; your identity changes. And the same characters who are responsible for telling you who you are; are the same characters who change who they are based upon your decision of who you want to be.
Its a bad-way of designing a moralty-system that ties in with this sort of RPG;
It just opens up so many flaws, inconsistences and potential loop-holes in the story telling for the sake of Player freedom with a blank character, and player option decisions.
You don't like my opinion; fine; whatever. But don't assume i need to play more to agree with your view.
The way the book sidelined other fun characters like Juhani, Jolee, Misson and Zalbaar and then killed T3-M4 was just horrible. And HK appears several times in KOTOR and continues going in Legends, but the Exile being killed by Scourge is just plain insulting.
It’s like KOTOR was you in the driver’s seat, doing whatever. KOTOR2 is the perspective of the pedestrian, and the unknown hero in the background
Kotor 2 is also ya know... Unfinished. As much as many people consider the moded version the "actual game" consoles and anything other than PC is a complicated mess of a story/plot.
Being fair, it might be attempting to be like Final Fantasy Tactics.
Revan as Delita, while the Exile becomes a forgotten hero like Ramza.
That said even if this were the case, Final Fantasy Tactics still handles it so much better than SWTOR/Revan Novel.
Highly recommend that game, especially the PSP port, War of the Lions.
I disagree that KOTOR 1 did not flesh out Revan as a character. You start the game as an amnesiac character,
BUT throughout the game you get small snippets about Revan, how great he was when against the wishes of the Jedi Council, he went to war and saved the galaxy from the mandalorians - and how fearsome and terrible he was when he returned as a Dark Lord of the Sith as Darth Revan and brought the Republic to its knees. We learn about the brilliance of his tactics and his charisma. Even former enemies like Canderous the Mandalorian had nothing but awe for Revan.
All these fragments of information made the twist such an earth-shattering moment, even more so than the "I am your father" from ESB. Starwars gave us two incredible twists (one with Vader and the other one with Revan) that stay with people and I for one will always remember fondly.
I really like how crushingly bleak and depressing KOTOR 2 is. Pretty much every place you go to or person you speak to is horribly broken in some way and it all ties in with the Exile and the post civil war galaxy. It'd be very easy to make something that dark just boring edgy bullshit but I think it pulled off the atmosphere really well.
I think there’s a beautiful tragedy type thing to Meetra not getting recognition for restoring the jedi order. It’s quite Jedi-like for someone who’s turned so many to the light to not want to take the credit for it.
Both KOTOR are masterpieces
Playing the games backwards was so wild. I played KOTOR 2 before Kotor 1 and it made the reveal such a crazy moment since I hadn’t seen Revan
I’m a huge revan fan and I loved the book and mmo even but watching this video gave me a new perspective. It made some points I hadn’t even thought about. I love KOTOR 2 but I’ve never thought about it in this way. Great job, you have changed my perspective on all this.
I'm glad you enjoyed it :)
Agreed on all points. My only appreciation of the Revan novel is the fact that it provided a canonical name for the Exile, and confirmed that she became recogized as a Jedi Master.
Hit the nail on the head. Bioware knew that Revan was the selling point and killing off the Exile eliminates competition. Killing off the Exile is okay if its earned, but in the novel it is not. And I completely agree, KOTOR2 turned Revan from an amazing character into a legendary one. It informs the player that Revan knew the consequences of his actions, and that makes the universe feel lived in. Great analysis!
I absolutely agree. How does meetra go from defeating the sith triumphant do being utterly mid as a character. She was so much more interesting when you play as her and obviously much more powerful in the game.
LOVED kotor, played from start to finish at least a dozen times over the years. Kotor 2 however, is imo the better game. I loved the story far more than the story of kotor, and the companion characters were, again imo, far superior. So glad it is getting some love from people.
I personally liked KOTOR 2 better. I can freely admit the KOTOR 1 was probably a better game, but I really enjoyed all the depth that went into Kreia. Her philosophy and what she is actually trying to teach the exile all the way through the game, no matter how you play your force alignment, was extremely well thought out and developed. She is definitely one of my favorite SW characters of any media origin.
You did a really excellent job and I agree.KOTOR 2 IS MY VERY FAVORITE EVER
Thank you! Glad to see you back in the Discord :)
I didn't know they did her so dirty like that... Kotor 2 has always been my favorite the characters were just so cool, hopefully they can do her justice some day.
I've been saying this for years. I refuse to accept the online gane
This video is three years old, but still long overdue.
My first KotOR game was TSL, and I absolutely loved the atmosphere of looming darkness. Everywhere you went, there was tension, unease, pain. It was like if you're in The Empire Strikes Back, right after it ended, where the bad guys won and you're just trying to salvage what you can. You have complex dialogue choices, can negotiate with bad guys, you're shown the SW world from the inside, with all the technobabble and things. It's great. Yes, the game was unfinished, but I don't blame Obsidian for it, it did a hell of a job anyhow. A lot of people give Avellone flack for his writing, but in this game, he hit it out of the park. The Jedi and the Sith, after all, are, first and foremost, religious orders, so all the religious references and messianic narratives made perfect sense (less so in Fallout New Vegas, sorry fanboys). And all the greys were just chef's kiss! Now, when I played KotOR1, I enjoyed it, but it felt kinda cheezy. It was mostly a typical story about a guy saving the world from some evil. You keep hearing stories about that one badass that changed the Galaxy years ago, and then - whoops! - you are that guy, just have amnesia. I don't know, maybe I watch too many movies, but this felt tired to me.
I was so excited about the Revan novel when it came out, but when I got to actually read it, my reaction was "Da fuck did I just read?!?". Sure, Revan was the center figure, but the Exile (I hate the novel so much, I won't even accept 'Meetra Surik'; also, the Exile was established as canonically female even before the novel) was done really dirty in it. She was nerfed into the ground, and save for being a bit more savvy in going undercover, she was a joke. Her death was especially unceremoniously bad, when you take into account that she had a very strong sense of precognition that would have warned her about whats-his-face's backstabbing.
I have to somewhat disagree with your point about TOR being littered with references to Revan, but not the Exile. Narratively it makes sense: Revan was this larger-than-life character, both during the Mandalorian Wars, and later during and after the Jedi Civil War. For the Exile, though, it's different: yes, she was one of Revan's top lieutenants during the Mandalorian Wars, but she left Republic space after the Wars had ended; she cut herself off from the Force, and when she returned, her impact on the Galaxy would be much more subtle. Peragus? Yes, it got blown up, but who knows if it was really her? Just the TSF and Atris, and even they couldn't say for certain if it was her or someone else (because they didn't know about the Sith). Yes, she helped keep Telos's Citadel Station afloat, yes, she fought Nihilus's invasion of Telos, and the civil war on Onderon, but otherwise, her actions were much smaller in scale. Nar Shadaa? Korriban? Nothing's really changed there. Dantooine? Sure, she prevented a coup, but, again, nothing's really changed. It's a backwater planet on the Outer Rim, and the conflict affected a small settlement. So, who cares? Other than G0-T0, I mean. She saved a lot of people, the Republic, and the Jedi, but she did so on a localized scale, without flash and fanfares. Her path was much more personal than Revan's, so while she is a Hero in her own right, she'd definitely not get cults and artifacts. To most people, the situation just fixed itself. On the other hand, she _should have_ gotten a space-ship or station named after her, maybe a memorial plaque or statue on Telos, Dantooine, Onderon... (don't remember if these are even featured in the game) But then, to the Republic she's just another Jedi.
All in all, I agree with your points. BioWare was just petty that Obsidian wrote a much more compelling story, with a much more interesting protagonist, so it deliberately downplayed the Exile's significance, and pretty much nuked TSL out of the lore. TOR is, after all, a BioWare title, as was KotOR1.
We all can agree Surik wasn't properly valued in TOR. But there's one thing you're just so fundamentally wrong about. Kotor 2 did not establish revan as a character, it added to it. Kotor 1 establishes Revan. He is not an established character at the beginning... he is by the end. You could completely and utterly remove 2 from existence, and Revan would still remain a fully established character. Light side ending is his canon, kotor 2 existing or not, that is true. That is a fully established character by the end. That is literally what kotor 1 does... it tells the story and establishes revan as a character in the SW universe.
And as far as Surik not being Revan's equal... that shouldn't even be an argument. Yes, she was a leader throughout her story. But at the end of the day, she was still a follower of Revan and if Revan returns, she would do so again.
100% agree that she wasn't given her due diligence and should have had a better representation. But she would not be Revan's equal. That is completely fair. She simply was not as powerful, or even as great of a leader, as Revan was. She was a hole in the force and formed incredible bonds and was a great character in the wake of Revan.
Both Revan and Surik were terribly botched in TOR. I think we all agree on that. But saying Revan wasn't an established character until kotor 2 is pretty silly.
The Revan that is publicly beloved by many fans was *not* created in KOTOR 1. The renegade hero that sacrificed himself to darkness for a greater cause. The hero who balanced between the light and the darkness etc etc - This was all brought into existence by KOTOR 2 and Kreia. Sure, there's a Revan that is established in KOTOR 1, there's a character there that can be liked but the traits that make him the Revan that is loved within the fandom was not.
They should just decouple KotOR from TOR. The KotOR storyline was just wasted in TOR for commercial purposes, similarly to how the Disney trilogy brought classic characters back for theater attendance, only to have them sacrificed to prop up their new characters and storyline.
Thanks man for this video!!! I too love Swtor. Played it on and off for 7 years. Got like 90% the OPs NiM achvs, titles, and wings, etc.. But I would trade it all for a proper retelling sequel to Kotor 1 and 2. Your whole video perfectly sums up my feelings about how BW screwed over the Exile as I commented at length in your Jedi Exile Explained video a few years ago. Keep up the great work man!
I actually remember back when Kotor 2 came out. The trailers actually made it clear the exile was male. Not that is a massive issue. Just a personal preference, since I played as the Exile as male. Maybe it was a coincidence but when you ask for a random name. They actually gave the last name as Surik. However I made the Exile male and he was known as Dastin Surik for me. But I do agree with the novel. They mistreat a lot of characters that we fell in love with, brushed aside. That book feels more as just something to promote the old Republic. That is a side quest, I was so disappointed. After putting several hours into Kotor 1 & 2. While I do enjoy the Old Republic era. I sort of have to write my own versions of Revan and the Exile for it to make sense for me. But the Exile remains one of my most influential characters in Star Wars.
I think of the Exile as a male named Logan Surik. It just has a nice tough sound to it.
Now, all I can do is hope that things will get redone or rebooted properly. But given the current state of the Star Wars franchise, I'm not particularly optimistic.
So for now, I shall stick to franchises that HAVEN'T let me down.
My bias is overtaking everything else. I couldn't agree more to the points, it's something that I've thought myself on numerous occasions.
First my friend I'm sorry I watch this video late and second this is a utterly fantastic and amazing video as always. My thoughts is since you know I don't play the games KOTOR or SWTOR I had to rely on fan made videos to know more about it. I so enjoyed watching your series on Revan you did back in 2017 because there was so much about him that I didn't know. Not to annoy you or anything but I had to rely on KOTOR Movie Saga to know Revan's story arc but his videos only showed Revan's redemption and destroying the Star Forge and not his time in the Mandalorian Wars, he hasn't finished it yet. SWTOR is fascinating but not as great as KOTOR, I've watched a few SWTOR movie videos but what I don't like is when they get to the fighting scenes it's like your playing a video game and not like watching an animated series which I prefer. I've also enjoyed watching SWTORISTA's videos to expand my knowledge on SWTOR but your videos gives me more knowledge of the expanded universe of Star Wars then her. This is why I'm hoping that Disney and Lucasfilms will make a Knights of the Old Republic movie and focus on that timeline in Star Wars that has never been brought to the big screen. Keep up the great work my friend and may the force be with you always
I agree and only hope that when these games are used for a movie the author realizes that both of these characters have to shine to make the movie right
This is way too much story for a movie... even for a trilogy. There's more than enough material in Kotor 1 to make a movie trilogy solely contained within that story. The story goes off the wall bonkers after that and quite honestly wouldn't make for a coherent translation to the big screen any way.
So I know I'm coming to this video way late but this really hit home to me for one really big reason. My first exposure to KOTOR was actually KOTOR 2. I went through it experiencing exactly what you where talking about with how Revan as a character and the legend of the jedi we all know was being told me yet I didn't know who he was, or what the Mandalorian wars where. When I finally went back and played KOTOR and got that experience I was left with a feeling of "is this really the guy KOTOR 2 talked about so much?" Because of that Revan never really clicked with me as he felt like two entirely different people between the man you play and the character KOTOR 2 tells you about. What I did latch on to heavily was the Jedi Exile and Kreia. The former going about using the dark/light side to influence a damaged galaxy all while the ladder seems to tread the middle warning you of making people dependent on your aid or a virus to spread cruelty. It was the first time I felt like Star Wars was actually challenging me to think beyond a simple good/bad dynamic and instead actually think about what actually is good or bad and what light/dark side of the force really is.
Simply put I loved how it was presented and I felt the Jedi Exile really should of been the first grandmaster of a new order of jedi who actually adopts ideals of individuality in contrast to the more dogmatic follow the council nature we tend to see. I bought the Reven book because I wanted to know more about what happened to the Exile and sadly the more I read it the more I felt like she wasn't even a part of it and when Scourge killed her at the end I was pissed. I knew that was all I would really get of her and to me she was, or should of been, far more important to the future of the jedi than Revan ever would be.
For having played Kotor 2 again recently, it's absoutely amazing how the narration is up to the player's investment. If you wish to comprehend what's at stake clearly you MUST pay attention to the interactions between characters and informations you can get. Otherwise it will be a good story still but not that legendary.
The only flaw is its animation and visuals that kotor 1 team handed so well, imo KOTOR 2 is the game that needs a real remake not his predecessor
IMO, that's been the core weakness of Obsidian, even after Chris Avellone left (probably got worse since they hired their own fans as writers). It's a double edged sword in that the narrative is so esoteric that you really have to get invested in the lore to appreciate the dialogue, and as this whole comment section shows it makes having an honest discussion about Obsidian games tough. The same people here who love KOTOR 2 at the exclusion of every other Old Republic IP probably also hated The Last Jedi for doing the exact same narrative challenges.
i heard the quick actions or something like that in kotor 2 is broken so when in combat you have to like individually pause and unpause combat and switch between every character to manually target and use abilities or something. idk i owned the disces back when it came out but my computer couldnt handle it and my first gaming pc didnt even have a disc drive so yeah
@@kongming66 IMO The Last Jedi didn't really try to be that different. The Rey and Kylo stuff, absolutely. Same with Luke, best parts of the movie. The rest of the movie doesn't make any sense at all, and since it clearly decided to take a dump on the previous film, it really make it seem like the trilogy wasn't that thought out.
Meetra Surik has got to be my favorite female hero of all time. She even beats Catwoman.
This video made me realize something -- K1 was the story of a man/warrior saving the world from a big bad guy, while K2 was the story of a woman/healer, repairing the world from the damage that the world has done. This is one of the many reasons why both stories are so appealing and so intertwined. As much as the third wave feminists may hate it, throughout history the archetypes of a great man and a great woman have been respectively of a noble warrior and a healer. They are deeply ingrained in our subconscious. It doesn't matter to us how many bad guys Meetra cuts down, what matters is that she helps people recover and restore. She even helped Darth Sion recover, and he was terrifying. Add to it another layer -- her personal trauma caused by her war crime. She was in a never-ending search for salvation, and even if the Galaxy forgave her, she could never forgive herself. There is so much beauty in it. And I think Karpishin did understand it when he wrote her in that chapter where she spoke with Bastila. I don't know why he chose to disregard it further on. Maybe because Lucasfilm deemed this line of story too heavy for the kids and just wanted the game to be focused on the classical hopeful gun-slinging SW.
I usually don't share these things, but I happened upon this very short fanfic, written from the perspective of Darth Sion. Give it a try, it's outstanding.
www.fanfiction.net/s/7076973/1/Dark-Guardian
EA made SWTOR MMO to earn money from P2W players.
and lightsabers in the SWTOR are just glowing sticks
They also were in kotor though
I personally think that both KOTOR games are the greatest content ever created in all of Star Wars. I agree that KOTOR follows the traditional Star Wars formula, but despite this it nails its storyline and the Revan revelation is its greatest moment.
KOTOR 2 is a magnificent deconstructivist take on traditional Star Wars mythologies and despite it being unfinished originally it takes Star Wars to a whole new level and that's why its story is so well respected to this day. You are absolutely right that Meetra Surik is every bit a pivotal character in the KOTOR universe as Revan is.
I never played the SWTOR MMO (mostly because it was a giant money maker for EA with the micro-transactions within the game), but I know enough about the plot of it. I do think that Emperor Vitiate was a terrific villain and I like his connection to Revan and Malak and how he was the Sith influence in the background who firstly tricked the Mandalorians into invading the Republic before the events of KOTOR so he could gauge how strong they were and weaken them before launching his own invasion, then how he corrupted Revan and Malak into using the Star Forge to launch another war on the Republic.
I totally agree with how you say both the Revan book and the SWTOR game ruined Meetra Surik. They also ruined the relationship between Revan and Bastila as well.
If I were running LucasArts I would have created a KOTOR 3 where a new character is sent into the unknown regions, say 10 years after the events of KOTOR 2 in search of Revan and Meetra Surik, with a mixture of the companions from the first two games and perhaps some new ones, with the goal of finding the two Jedi and taking on and defeating Emperor Vitiate together.