I told you all some juicy content was coming this year! This is one of the biggest KOTOR videos I've ever made, so I hope you all enjoy it and I'd really appreciate it if you let me know what you thought of the video down below! Also you will get an *'Influence Gained'* from me if you come follow me on Twitter! - twitter.com/100PerStarWars
This was a great video. I will ponder your reflections of Kreia. And I do believe you inspired me to share my own. Including in response to yours. I just wonder how different the current moment in SWTOR would be. This is supposing if the game had both been consistent with both Kotors and also had more development in its expacs. For Legacy of the Sith does go back to Nihilus, and even has its own betrayer in Malgus.
Gotta say, there's a lot of things in this video I disagree with. Kreia is a horrible person, and her perspective on the Force is wrong. Her plan is to use the "Force Echo" thing to force everyone in the galaxy go through the same suffering the Exile did at Malachor in an attempt to try to force them make the choice that she wants them to: To either separate themselves from the Force and live in a manner that she approves of, or die. All because she's under some delusion that the Force is some sort of brain-controlling monster that tricks people into doing things, rather than them just doing what they choose of their own free will whether it's aligned with the will of the Force or not. Even if you convince her not to go through with it she acts like she's achieved something by losing because you're supposedly going to teach the next generation her teachings and this somehow proves that she was right about everything all along, she's self-absorbed and arrogant to boot. Her name as a Sith Lord: "Traya" is short for what she really is, a betrayer. She represents the third part of the Sith Triumvirate; pain, hunger and betrayal; just a few of the horrible things that using the dark side results in. She guides you throughout the game trying to get you to see things through her twisted view and uses you as a tool for her own devices; she claims that she "loves" you, or more accurately what you represent, and yet she still tries to kill you; I guess that's not surprising coming from someone who thinks it's normal to betray what you believe in. Her tangent about believing in an ideal means you have to be willing to betray it is psychopathic, subversive nonsense; belief in an ideal does not require betrayal. She's definitely a fascinating character who's mostly well-written and her voice actress did an incredible job, and I can see why so many people are captivated by her; but holy crap guys, she's freaking evil. Her plan (assuming it would work) would involve killing most, if not everyone in the galaxy. She'd rather put everyone through immense suffering and/or an excruciating death rather than admit that she's wrong about anything. She straight up says she'd kill the entire galaxy for you because she supposedly "loves" you, and she "loves" you mostly because you supposedly represent her being right. Saying her goals are noble is messed up, I think some people drink too much haterade about the Jedi and the Force and this makes them ignore when people like Kreia are actually horrible people who want to do horrible things.
@@alaskamark4562 Kreia was not a good person indeed. She had many good perspectives and offered much wisdom. But a good person? Not at all. As for the betraying ideals statement. It's not psychotic at all. It simply means not be so unbelievably devoted to something you're not willing to see its flaws - and if those flaws become a hinderance, be willing to turn away and if necessary go against them.
I still remember hearing Kreia say “Because I hate the Force” at the end of the game and being taken aback. I’ve never heard a character say something like that in Star Wars before and actually intend to destroy it. I’ve not seen a more well written character since then.
Yeah it was a truly novel and interesting view on the force for sure, since in basically all other Star Wars content the force wielders use the force and believe it has a will of it’s own, but are ok with it. She was the first being to challenge that and loathe the forces influence on the galaxy
@@monkeysk8er33 definitely agree that she’s the best written Star Wars character and one of the best written in all of fiction. The writing is a big part of why I love KOTOR 2 so much
The thing I love most about Kotor II’s story is how it always feels like you’re fighting against something much greater than yourself. Of course you have your key villains, but the actual conflict is something cosmic, something you can’t comprehend and must simply interpret whether or not your choices are doing something about it. That’s something I feel every RPG in this vein hasn’t accomplished since.
The RPG audience only like murderhobo wish fulfillment pretty much. Even obsidiant went this way in pillars 2 with myriads of waifubait and people out of nowhere barging in your room asking for sex
@@JoaoVictor-rg5ix by itself, the Force is a sort of "sea" of energy, that, through its will, created life. All life created by the Force energy is bound to it, and can tap into its power with the right training. It is believed that the Force can influence the choices of living beings, choosing how events play out. Being a force of nature, the Force seeks to maintain a balance, but many different groups have formed different views on what this Balance entails, with the Jedi strongly believing it refers to the total absence of the Sith and the Dark Side. Of course, not all life is connected to it, as seen with the Yuuzhan Vong, for example, and under situations of extreme pressure and suffering, a being and/or place can sever their connection to the Force, as it happened to the Exile and Nihilus, resulting in what is known as a Wound in the Force, a hole in its fabric where its will is greatly weakened, and where life turns into something that can become chaotic and unstable. A few examples of Wounds in the Force are: -Meetra Surik: Also referred to as the Exile, she was a Jedi Knight, and one of Revan's generals during the Mandalorian Wars. She gave the order to activate a superweapon known as the Mass Shadow Generator in the Battle of Malachor V(the last of the conflict), and, watching all the death it caused and hearing the screams of the dying that echoed through the Force, she unconciously severed her connection to the Force, out of fear of what the echo caused could mean to her. Upon returning to the Jedi Council, she was exiled for her disobedience to the wishes of the Order's ruling body, and stripped of any remaining connections to the Jedi. She played an instrumental role in the later Dark Wars, where she was tasked with saving a republic that was on the brink of collapse, rebuilding the Jedi Order, and stopping the phantom organization of dark side users known as the SIth Triumvirate before it was too late. -Darth Nihilus: Although his origins are not completely clear, it is known that he was a jedi present in Malachor V when the MSG destroyed the world. Having gone through a similar process to that of the Exile, he lost his connection to the Force, but, unlike Surik, he refused to let go of it. Using an ancient technique that was lost to time, he consumed other life forms in order to restore his connection to the Force for some time, a power that eventually corrupted him completely. He was responsible for the massacre of Katarr during the First Jedi Purge, and was one of the 3 leaders of the Sith Triumirate. -Malachor V: Being the epicenter of the activation of the MSG, Malachor V was ravaged by the last battle of the Mandalorian Wars, becoming little more than a formation of rock and swirling energy, constantly his by storms. On its surface, it was possible to hear the screams of those who died to the superweapon, an effect that greatly affects Force Users, and can be used to turn them to the dark side. At its core, the Triumvirate built an academy to train the Dark Jedi that joined them, although it is also said the place was used by Revan during the Jedi Civil War to turn Jedi to his cause. Other possible Wounds: -Alderaan: I think most people know why it could be a Wound in the Force at this point. -Bao Dur: He was an Iridonian mechanic who worked closely with Meetra Surik during the Mandalorian Wars, and later reunited with her in Telos IV. Although he never shows any signs of carrying a Wound, he says the Battle at Malachor V greatly affected him, and Kreia has trouble reading his thoughts. This is my take on it. Sorry for the long text, and mostly focusing on what a Wound in the Force is. I hope this helped you understand
This is why I really believed Sara Kesleman was the perfect actrsss for this role in the first 2 minutes of your video. The way she speaks with wisdom and conviction brings such life and depth to Chris’s writing. It was truly the best thing we could have asked for.
Kreia, I feel, is a character that could never happen again. At least not in Star Wars. She is such a unique character for the story and her writer did an amazing job actualizing her, though of course her VA was perfect for bringing the character to life.
@@anthonyfowler2623 You would need atleast a series to show a fraction of the depth of the games, esp kotor 2. These games, while cinematics, arent made to be movie like a Naughty Dog production
I feel that she was either written with a deliberate flaw in her reasoning or it was the result of the writers themselves not realising that destroying or draining the Living Force would have no effect upon the galaxy being manipulated by the Will of the Force which itself originates from the Cosmic Force. KoTOR2 was released in 2004 and the Living Force was first mentioned in 2000 in a Darth Maul novel so that part would have been known to the writers, The Cosmic Force didn't get its name until novels used the term in 2008 but the distinction between two aspects of the Force predated the term being used so maybe it was some obscure fact the writers overlooked when working with the Lucasfilm story team.
My favorite quote from her was something like, “true victory is not silencing your enemies but rather opening their eyes to see the truth in what you speak.” Something like that, not a word for word quote
What Kreia said is very similar to one of Sun Tzu's most important tenants from his book, The Art of War. That being it is far more effective to subdue your enemy without fighting. Similarly, she said to Mical, "I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true." No doubt Kreia would be a chess grandmaster in today's world.
This reminds me of why I enjoy the story of Darth Caedus so much. Jacen Solo went to study the Force in all aspects, all disciplines. During his travels, it can be interpreted that by viewing the Throne of Balance when Mind Walking, and seeing the vision of a dark future rules by a monstrous Sith Lord, his future daughter at this monster's side, he was seeing the will of the Force and it's intended goal. He went home and discovered a brewing Civil War, saw where the future could go (one again interpreted as seeing of the Will of the Force) and saw a future of ruin, where he killed Luke Skywalker and everything went to hell in a hand basket, and thus became a Sith, finding a way he believed he could maintain his humanity via sacrifice and keeping his pain alive, ultimately uniting the entire Galaxy against him. And he won. He lost the war and died yes, Jaina killed him, but he brought peace, he united all these warring factions against him and truly united the known galaxy. Not only that but he changed the Flow of the Force with a long reaching echo of his actions, to where Alana Solo, his daughter sat on the Throne Balance in an era of light and peace, surrounded by friends from all races in the Galaxy. He was a odd case, but I feel Kreia would call him a proof she was right. Through sheer grit of will, Jacen ignored the will of the Force and made an echo with his actions so massive it's entire flow altered. Proving his free will over the Force. At least that is how I see it.
I've read only Dark Nest trilogy, yet to read Lotf... Change in Jacen's character is stupid, because it doesn't work at all. That way Denning retconned events from NJO and lied about them. I mean, if only preparing to this Caedus stuff destroyed his character, what Lotf will do.
I always wished they would have adapted the Legacy of the Force novels as the sequel trilogy instead of what we got. It would have been far more interesting while still giving everyone the nostalgia they wished for in seeing Luke, Han, and Leia again.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в you really should keep going. It does get into Jacen's Psychology more and earlier on. It's a natural through line, especially when you look at what Luke and Ben learned retracing his Journey in Fate of the Jedi. Trust me, it's worth it.
@@tristanalain9239 No worries, I will. However it seems like I hate it already. It's simply 180 percent twist of character. It didn't make sense so they needed retcons of his previous story. Doesn't looks good.
The fact we are discussing this game, both 1 & 2, these many years later, is a credit and testament to the quality of the story and it's characters. I sat through this whole video and now see kreia in a different light after my like 20 some play throughs. Awesome video mate.
I’ve absolutely loved Kreia for years-such a brilliant character, brilliantly portrayed. The way KOTOR2 was shipped was absolutely criminal-I was so grateful for the restored content mod.
She was trying to wound the force so much that it would let go of it's grip of the Universe, ultimately giving us free will. She pretty much tells you how much she hates the force and uses it as one would a poison in order to understand it and kill it. That's why the Exile was so significant, because she could have destroyed the hold the force has over everyone.
It's not because the Exile could destroy the Force's Will, it's because the Exile was evidence that one COULD live without the Force's Will. Kreia further explores this idea in the Jedi Enclave when she severs the Jedi Master's from the Force, she is hoping that one of them might make the same choice the Exile did on Malachor V and choose to give up their connection rather than grasping onto the Force as it was ripped away from them. But they do not give it up, they struggle to hold onto it and it causes them to die. Because of this Kreia comes to decide that it is not realistic for other's to turn away from the Force so easily and that the event is something unique, that in order to force someone to let go would require wounding someone’s force connection so badly that they would subconsciously let go in order to survive the trauma. But she finds solace in the idea that she may teach the Exile and that the Exile may lead a new Order that is free from the Force's Will by extension of the Exile.
Her ideas are actually wrong, confirmed by Avellone himself. And, given SW lore, and "Force bindes everything" her destruction of the Force would kill everybody. Force is not evil, Kreia is just a big failure that blames Force for her failures in Jedi and Sith ideology.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в The Exile is literal proof that it is possible to live without the Force, that’s the whole point of the Exile. That’s like primarily why she got exiled. “And where they look at you and see the death of the Force, I look at you and see hope for all life.” Mical to the Jedi Exile. And how does Avellone prove her points wrong? You can’t just say that without explaining or at least giving a general source?
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в How do you know the force is not evil? We know that the Jedi worship her, on the contrary, the Sith try to control her. We only know about the force itself that it can give the user abilities such as telekinesis, mind control... We also know that it has a dark and a light side. Not only did Kreia see both the dark side and the light side, but she also saw siths and jedi. She perfectly understands both parties and their ideologies. The strange thing is that jedis and siths don't try to learn anything new about the force. Jedi just blindly follow the will of the force without asking questions. The only thing siths want to learn about the force is how best to destroy their enemies with it. Another strange thing is how long the conflict lasts. Siths and Jedi have been fighting each other for thousands of years, even if they don't know why. What if there is something else behind it. What if the force itself is behind it? That which is a tool of the Shits and an ally of the Jedi is their enemy. But why would the force do that? What would it achieve? Well, as I said, force has two sides. Light and dark. Others always prevail. But why? Why are there times when dark is stronger than light. It looks as if the force is trying to maintain some kind of balance. Like she's using the siths and jedis to kill the each other.. Only to achieve some kind of balance. You might be thinking: Even if this were true, the annihilation forces would kill everything living in the galaxy. The answer to that - not necessarily. Because Kreia found a person who could live a very long time without surviving without force. Known as Jedi Exile. This means that there is a chance that some creatures could survive. Whatever you think of Krea, one thing is clear. Of all the characters in star wars, she knows the most about the force. She felt both the light and the dark side and actively studied it.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в You’re taking that statement out of context. Avellone is not saying he wrote Kreia to be wrong, he’s reaffirming that your opinion as the player does not have to agree with Kreia. That is why he says “PC”, because only you get to decide the story of your PC, meanwhile “the Exile” has a canon disposition. His next comment was “If you don’t let the player decide for themselves, then the game becomes a pulpit, not a RPG.” So as the player you decide whether or not Kreia is right but Avellone certainly did not write her to be wrong. He has gone on interview (3 years ago) saying that his inspiration for the story line came from his own examination of the Force and it’s apparent will, that he dislikes predestination by virtue of being an RPG designer, ending it by saying “All of those things kind of bothered me.” He basically shares the opinion of Kreia, it’s the driving point, but the PC still gets to decide whether or not it’s correct.
What’s most interesting about Kreia is how her philosophy is so different to other Jedi and Sith throughout the franchise. Qui-Gon saw the value in the Force as a whole. Both the Jedi Council of the Old Republic and during the Clone Wars were dogmatic organizations that feared emotions and rejected basic humanity in fear of falling to the dark side. The Sith in the Old Republic was all about flaunting their power to get whatever they wanted, while the Sith in the Clone Wars hid in plain sight to destroy the Republic and create the Galactic Empire. Yet both Jedi and Sith had a certain commonality… both connected strongly to the Force, attempting to understand it’s secrets and will. Kreia, in the other hand, hated the fact that the Force even had a will. She hated being connected with something that lived and worked like the Force did because she felt enslaved to the Force. Yet, in a certain way, she CAN be right. Some can become enslaved by the Force, or rather the side of the Force they choose to follow, such as Darth Vader, but others can see it as an ally, such as Luke Skywalker (in Legends mostly) and Qui-Gon Jinn
@100StarWars You know, it's fascinating, Kreia became everything she despised. She did an excellent job of exposing the failings of the Jedi and the Sith as both wrong and inadequate paths. And yet, she failed to reveal or exemplify where a truly better path lay. In the way that she lived, she was like a Sith, but simply with more subtelty. Her goals were her own, but every life around her was no more to her than a means to her end. She hated the force because she believed it was manipulating the people of the galaxy and sacrificing so many of their lives for it's own ends. But she manipulated people on a massive scale, intending and willing to kill as many people as it took, even if it was most of the galaxy, to destroy the force she hated. And in it all, she never seemed to consider the possibility that perhaps it was not the force after all that caused such destruction. Perhaps it was people like her who truly manipulated the galaxy and caused mass destruction and ruin. Perhaps the force was merely a means by which it was accomplished. Perhaps, it was simply the natural course of human nature when it is corrupt. Such is the hypocrisy of subjective morality. She wanted what she wanted because of her own feelings and experiences and perspective, and she would sacrifice anything and anyone to accomplish it, not for others, but for herself; and she treated people as no more than tools, the very thing that she hated the force for seeming to have done. Her example was one of manipulation, of teaching some if it suited her purpose, and throwing away the lives of others if it achieved her goal. It was the kind of concept of freewill that scorns the idea of objective right and wrong, and so is willing to do anything to anyone to get what it wants. Desiring revenge for all pain caused to her, but willing to cause such pain to anyone else if it suited her aims. She is a lesson. A lesson of the kind of destructive hypocrisy one falls into if enforcing what you want becomes more important than truth or right. A lesson of how corrupted wisdom can be used to destroy, instead of to heal. And a lesson that perceiving the failings of others does not mean you have found truth yourself. One of the great masterpieces in her tale is perhaps that her story is even more tragic than that of either the Jedi or the Sith. For she saw the failings of both, and yet herself failed to find the way that was better, but instead fell into a path no less empty. Manipulation. Betrayal. And corruption. And in the end, she was still lost.
We'll never know if she actually found a better way because the writers that followed diverged from Kreia and the Kotor 2 lore after it ended. The canon could have been that the exile stayed at Malachor to teach a new group of force users or that the exile had killed themself at Malachor to deafen most of the known galaxy to the force, those would be awesome ideas to explore but they weren't and it kinda sucks. One thing not to get boggled down onto is the idea of subjective morality since morality itself IS a human belief and differs among individuals, objective morality does not exist in the real world (by extension, subjective morality makes up ALL morality so there's really no point using objective/subjective to divide it). Even in Star wars I do not believe there is objective morality either, the force represents a powerful entity but not a divine or absolute one and it's incredibly fallable by human moral standards (and the standards of many beings in the star wars universe) considering it willingly allows it's users to use force powers for malicious or evil means. It allows light or dark side influence and powers based on the mental state of the individuals and how their thoughts affect their choices/actions, but not to the action itself that is being committed (this is likely why killing innocents, or even evil or cruel npcs who aren't presently attacking you in the game will likely net you dark side alignment, but killing hundreds of hostile npc's who are actively attacking you in the game doesn't affect alignment at all). The force is completely tied to ones state of mind and the influence goes both ways between the force and it's user. I also don't think it's fair to argue she was just a more subtle sith, she didn't actively pursue the suffering of others, or more power, she also scolds you for doing things that are aligned with sith or dark-side behaviour, like murdering thugs, like threatening poor beggars, like murdering the jedi masters, ultimately she avoided actions that would allow the force to alter her state of mind and shift her out of balance, and only made actions where it would help lead to an outcome she desired (which wasn't just destructive or evil btw, stopping Atris and leading to the defeat and death of Darth Nihilus was incredibly important to prevent further suffering and death/destruction. For as much as she wasn't benevolent, I also don't think she was malevolent either, at the very least her actions were not intended to increase suffering or death just for personal pleasure.
@@Shinobi_Fox It's true she didn't do it for the purpose of enjoying causing others to suffer, but that does not mean it was not evil. Evil is possibly most often done by those who are willing to do anything necessary to accomplish their goals, no matter how it affects others. In the end of the game she explains that her true motivation is that she hates the force, and while she says that's because it "uses them all to achieve some measure of balance, while countless lives are lost," that makes her an incredible hypocrite, because she was willing to cause what could potentially be even greater destruction to achieve her goal. That's still evil. But the assuming that all morality is subjective and mere opinion simply because people have differing opinions seems a large leap indeed. It would be a similar claim to say that radio waves are only real if you have your radio turned on. Or a better example, it's like saying the facts of a crime are dependent on the opinion each witness had from their angle, instead of the cross-examined facts used to make a case. (Any judge or jury will be able to tell you that is incorrect) The fact that people and cultures have different opinions on morality is similarly not evidence that morality is subjective. It's actually distinct evidence that there is objective morality, which we're all more or less close to, applied in many ways, and yet which we all look to in some way, which is why every culture has some similar elements of morality despite the differences. If you think about it, trying to remove the question of objective morality inherently makes every philosophical discussion entirely meaningless. The reason we philosophize, my friend, is because we are in some way discovering or searching for truth. At least, hopefully. Because when we try to invent our own version, it's the same as when someone invents their own story about what happened in a crime case (i.e., it's a lie). I think we can say with certainty that Kreia did not find a better way based on this logic: If objective morality exists (which I believe the evidence shows it does), then her way was evil. If objective morality did not exist, then there would be no objective way to classify anything as 'better', and thus she still could not have found a better way. The reason that we can morally and philosophically see that the path of the Jedi and the Sith are both badly flawed (and Kreia's as well), creating either a destructive self centerdness or a complete lack of identity (or in Kreia's case, an arrogance that manifests in willingness to do anything to anyone to achieve what she wanted), is because we know both intuitively and by observing the evidence, that we were designed to live in a different way, and that it is objectively better. It is one of the clear evidences that speak of a Designer.
I've just got to say, your commentary on this character and morality is invaluable. So many people have missed the point of characters like Kreia: she is NOT righteous in any way. I've seen countless people just fall for whatever whim tickles their fancy because adhering to a firm moral framework is hard and they don't want to bother trying. That's why these modern, nihilistic "do as thou wilt" ideologies are so appealing: because they're perfect for the self-serving narcissist. Plus, I'm sick of seeing the Jedi vilified for no reason (this is something the new Mouse overlords are pushing hard too, if their latest failure, The Acolyte, is anything to go by). The Jedi are flawed, but also ultimately a force for good-this is why the demise of their order is still portrayed as a tragedy in RotS. George Lucas has made it abundantly clear that balance in the Force simply means not giving in to one's baser nature, and falling to the dark side is acting out of self-interest.
Krea deserves the love and recognition ! in today Star Wars community. we need more videos about her like her origins and who was her master If they ever remake Kotor 2 it won’t be the same cause the voice actor who did Krea is half of the game
Definitely since she is far more powerfull then even her student Darth Nihilus. Ps. They will never be able to make a proper Star Wars KOTOR 2 Remake since they will focus on some stupid stuff that disney is dictating, or they won't even understand the main philosophical themes of this game.
@@alistairgrey5089 I know very little about sound design and production but I think it would be possible to improve the quality of the recorded tracks and rescue the unused content of the game for a remake without need of her.
Such an intelligent and well written character. Almost fourth wall breaking without actually doing so, because Kreia is exactly the kind of person that would figure these things out. A dedicated scholar, powerful force weilder, a renowned teacher (of Revan no less), a Jedi master, a sith lord.. She was right about the force and her theory plays out perfectly through the prequels and original trilogy.
Very interesting take! Yes almost 4th wall breaking. This got me thinking how the whole game ties beautifully, story plays with mechanics, mechanics plays with story. The will of the force amounts to a single line, a classic grand narrative game script, where you are the good guy or a baddie. But Kreia both rebels and attempts to twist fate, thus the game script is broken. The game mechanics present an alternative, the player/exile is placed in the universe, you are never truly a sith or a jedi but the light and darkness within you grows/changes depending on your actions. You cross lines and never forced to commit to a single side as a player/character because of your wound with this grand will and because as a player you "build" your path rather than blindly follow and thus you have to invest yourself.
Fan-fucking-tastic video. You teach me something new every video, even though I arrogantly thought I had depth in my KOTOR knowledge. Can't wait for more like this. I've never completely understood the force echoes nor wounds in the force, so dedicated videos about them would be amazing. Great work!
In many ways, Kreia's philosophy is very similar to Friedrich Nietzsche, particularly his idea of the Übermensch ("over-man" or "superior-man"). This was highlighted in his 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra. In other words, what the game describes as "echoes" is basically like the "butterfly effect." Literally any small action or event may lead to bigger consequences.
While there are several long-form analysis videos on TH-cam regarding Kreia and her philosophy, here is a (roughly) 8-hour video analysis on KOTOR II: th-cam.com/video/5texil4EYP4/w-d-xo.html
KOTOR 1&2 are basically the best Star Wars games ever made when it comes to expanding on the lore, especially 2. Kreia’s character is more complex than even Palpatine and Anakin. This is Star Wars at its best and deepest, building on what George created and honoring the source material. That’s how you achieve great Star Wars
Atton: Explain something to me. Kreia: I do not have the years required, nor the desire to indulge you. Fantastic video, I too find Kreia to be incredibly interesting, no matter how many times I play the game. The way she gets you thinking about your actions, your decisions throughout the journey.
Great take! Honestly, I think both stories were good in themselves, but the issue was that they needed to be 2 separate stories with different characters. Meetra's character arc was done beautifully in the "Revan story" (content related to KOTOR 1) There are some issues with the rewriting, but the fabric of the story is of such quality it survives the damage. The Exile needed to be a separate character in a different story and there was no need to try and relate KOTOR 2 to KOTOR 1 purely through association to Revan. He almost has no bearing on the story, so there was no need to force the connection between the Exile and Revan. As for Kreia's doctrine, it is very difficult to see her in light of anything other than a rebellious villain when her "motivations" are fully delved to their origin. The force is essentially the spiritual life and creator of the SW universe. To divorce any weight or connection to it and utilize it purely as a tool would have dramatic and deadly results. There would be no order and no responsibility to life at all. Anakin Solo speaks to the responsibility force users have to the force in EU novel EoV: Conquest. He learns a great deal about the force through a character who lives completely outside of the force (ironic). "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and "Suffering begets Life" are axioms too well established, we know what becomes of unchecked power in the hands of mortals. Kreia's doctrine and motivation, though intricate and well written, are essentially the same as "shaking one's fist at the Universe."
As a huge KOTOR 2 fan seeing more videos like this is awesome, great work 100%! Agreed imo Kreia is one of, if not the best written character in all of Star Wars even though I don’t agree with her on everything
You know, you kept saying that kreia won no matter how the events play out yet the fact the galaxy essentially forgot her entirely kinda means that in the end she really didn't win, the changes she sought to bring were not long lasting and her name isn't even a footnote in the history texts. So while I agree that kreia is a awesome character I can not agree with the claim that she won...if anything it was the force itself that had the last laugh.
Is something that has bothered me about Star Wars. No one, not even Jedi historians, seem worried that historical records are lost in every epoch despite the advanced technology, data is easily lost and only the Whills of The Force has a full record of Skyriver history. As if The Force was enforce ignorance.
To be expected sadly. As great as the character was written, she's a little too nuanced and her philosophy almost sort of out of place with the overall meta tone of the star wars universe of epic conflicts between good and evil. She's almost like the fun police in a way, forcing you to think deeper beyond the surface level approach of "cool heroes fighting cool villains with cool weapons and powers". We like it because we spectate. If it was happening to us, it wouldn't seem nearly as fun and cool. She sort of exists almost as a critique of the original simplicity of the story. She's fascinating because she stands out so dramatically and differently from everyone else in universe who embraces the force and wants the perks it Grant's. She hates it, and hates that it's partly to blame for her own suffering. She's the star wars equivalent of an anti theist hypocrite, who knows and hates her own hypocrisy as much as she hates her reliance on the force itself. That's way too deep for most people, and far too heavy a concept to continue riffing off of for future writers without them getting it and her wrong, or flanderizing. Besides that, in universe, the jedi weren't going to embrace her "heretical" teachings, and the sith would have ignored her as a weak failure who didn't understand the nature of power. Only the exile and Revan would have understood her, and tried to pass on some of her teachings. But again considering she basically called out both sides of the force user coin as stupid, they weren't going to listen.
You and I share the same appreciation for Kreia and her teachings. I could listen to her all day. Another TH-camr broke down her philosophy and created a large video essay on it. I listen to it all the time, but I would love if you did something similar to hear your take and thoughts on her ideals and not just her goals. I would love to hear what you agree with her about and if you disagree with her on anything. I admire her but there are several points that she makes that I believe she is wrong in. So I am curious about the conclusions that you draw as well. Looking forward to your next video on the Exile surviving Kreia's death! Keep them coming!
@@LaurenEflake It is worth, since it explains quite well Kreia's beliefs and a nice introduction to the Jedi and the Sith. I plan to show it to my mother.
The dependence on the force leaves one oblivious to consequence which is why Kreia emphasises the strength to deny urges and seek contrast for if you understand light, dark and absence of the force while retaining your individuality then you become truly strong.
a character like Kreia is what the sequels should have had. A non-sith, a non-jedi, one who wants to destroy the force and remove the equation rather than balance it
Dude I'm playing Kotor 2 for the first time at this very moment and I'm asking myself this exact question ^^ your channel ist like godsent, so much valuable information on like everything I want to know about Kotor. Thanks a Lot for your work!
This is an amazing video, it so succinctly captivates what makes Kotor 2 so fascinating. I love the mysticism, the profundity, the uniqueness of the story so much and you've explained the nuance of it all so well here.
Isn’t there one other potential outcome you’re missing? That Meetra *does* cut herself off from the force before Kreia dies, thereby avoiding dying from their force bond as mentioned, but instead of going on to lead some new order of free-willed Jedi, Meetra *chooses* with her free will to go back to the Order’s dogmatic ways. It isn’t that the ending was ret-conned, it may just be that Meetra did cut herself off but chose to go back to the Order’s teachings. This would mean Kreia’s plan isn’t full-proof as suggested… It would have been highly likely to succeed because Kreia covered as many potential outcomes as she could, but that’s the thing with Meetra’s free will: even Kreia couldn’t manipulate it in the very end when it really mattered.
Yeah, this video hinges on the idea that Kreia is right; that the Force is some malevolent entity that inhibits free will. But this is demonstrably false, and so much of both KotOR games drive this home. It makes perfect sense that Meetra, after rejecting Kreia’s hollow ideals-preaching the power of free will while refusing to believe in it when it’s been right in front of her all along-would go on to do nothing in the way of spreading these ideals. For Meetra to go back to being a bog standard Jedi instead of some Kreia II makes perfect sense.
@@pwnorbepwned Kreia is right about The Force, is an entity that perpetuates a cycle of death over life under the excuse of "Balance". And we should ignore the Revan novel, since it was written by someone that clearly did not play KOTOR II. I hate that book as Kreia hates The Force.
Awsome vid and so well explained! I think it’s so hard to realize what Kreia means because as a fan I’ve always fantasized about using the force and being a Jedi- to think about giving that up if it were a real power maby just isn’t part of many peoples day dreams lol
Beyond amazing and astounding video my friend!!!!! At times when playing KOTOR 2 I wish I could leave Kreia behind and I tried it when playing dark side. Kreia is indeed a unique and fascinating character and I believe to be more powerful than Emperor Palpatine
This is the kind of storytelling that makes this game a genuine masterpiece. You not only replay it to see how your choices affect the story, but you also inevitably delve deeper into the story's themes and get something new out of it each time you play it. You don't just beat the bad guys and call it a day. As you learn more about everyone's motivations and backgrounds, you question whether you're doing the right thing and who is actually good or evil. It's exactly this kind of multi-layered and nuanced exposition that made KOTOR and the Final Fantasy series so memorable and still playable to this day despite literally being decades old now. It's also why these games are being re-made: FFVII and KOTOR that is. Fans have also clamored to have FFVI remade, but Square said that endeavor would likely take 20 years!
I might have remembered to like the video either way as I actually adored how well made this video was but the apathy is death line was delivered so cheesily that I laughed out loud and liked it immediately after. I would have subbed on that too if I wasn't already subbed. I'm so glad you've been able to keep going despite the less than stellar Kotor remake news and I hope you're able to keep making such brilliant star wars and Kotor content despite that.
Hello 100%SW - this was my first video of yours i had watched only 2 days ago, now my count of watched ones is over 12 or so, LOVE THEM! Keep on trucken' oh....er...haulen'... there better! Your coverage of all things Star Wars is just spectacular presentation and your voice / accent is just wonderful. slight bone in my craw though, no fault of yours, but discovered that YT CC "translation to 'English' sucks hind bantha poo doo! Not sure if you have a fan or two to re'CC your videos, but damn do they need it! If not, I might have some time to start it, but not sure how to submit it for inclusion.
@@100StarWars ahh, I need to clarify, I am a English language native, however I can't listen/hear as well as in the past, so I like to read what I am hearing so I miss fewer details. The CC in English is so bad most of the time, especially names in SW and some specialized terms.
Kreia is easily my all time favorite character ever. Everything about her, how she interacts with the player and the rest of the characters in the game. Her philosophy, how she thinks. Hell as stupid as this might sound she shaped my current worldview because of how much she made me think as a kid. Sara Kestelman did such a incredible job as her voice actress.
Your video just hit me like a ton of bricks. After watching all the scenes with her in the game and it just enthralls me. I tend now to side with her thinking 100%. I can't thank you enough for your videos. They are all primo.
@17:00 By the end of TSL yes, she admits that she would have seen the galaxy die just to preserve a single free individual, however mass genocide of life was not her goal and she outright tells this to Mical on the Ebon Hawk as you point out later in the video. You're correct that creating a new greater wound in the Force would force all Force-Sensitives that could feel it to choose to die, sever or fall, but Atris is incorrect, the rest of the galaxy would not be facing that sort of trilemma. Malachor V's wound was only perceivable to a select few, the rest of the galaxy still "felt" the wound on a subliminal level, but in an entirely different way to the Jedi that were there. I also think you're going a bit far toward the end when you touch on Kreia's goal of establishing a NJO as a win-condition, namely because the Exile herself still required Malachor V's wound as an impetus toward the choice of severance. Her individual experience is not something that can be replicated in students by merely providing them proof of possibility. That's not a compelling enough reason to throw away the Force when needs must, and Kreia wouldn't be so naïve to believe it was. You can't teach willpower, some learn it on their own via circumstance, but most never do. Either way, you always need to get in the water before you swim or drown. Wounds in the Force would always be necessary. Kreia's teachings failed for several reasons. Firstly because she didn't actually understand the nature of the Force. It wasn't malicious, and it wasn't a perpetual cycle. There was a beginning of the wars between Jedi and Sith and there was to be an end to them when the Force created Anakin to destroy the Sith as laid down by George Lucas. She lacked perspective and was not yet privy to revelation this early in the timeline, so she can't be blamed for this. Also, the Force itself is created by life to aid in propagating itself as a sort of defense mechanism. Life creates it and makes it grow. Kreia is fighting against the collective will of life itself which unsurprisingly trends toward renewal, not death. She is essentially saying: "I know what life needs better than life itself." Sorry Kreia, but no, you probably don't. Life is a collective, and individual will is always subject to it in Star Wars. Her entire motivation rests on the idea that things would inevitably be better, not worse when the Force was removed from the equation. She based this belief on nothing more than hopium. The reality is that there would always be wars fought because mankind is fallible and corrupt. For all she knew, the Force may well have been ensuring there were fewer wars, not more with the Jedi acting as a deterrent. This she can be blamed for. "Life sucks for me currently so I'll attempt to reorder the galaxy without knowing the ramifications because things can only get better right? Right..." Lastly, her teachings have a barrier of entry that is so high even for the exceptionally gifted as to be impractical to pass on reliably. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone then that even within the EU's canon, the Exile didn't pass on her teachings, either out of choice or simple inability. Absolutely agree, with the end sentiment. TOR is shit, Kreia is a magnificent character, a flawed but deeply compelling villain.
I figured the force bond between you and Kreia was just one of her illusions to tie her to you, meaning that killing her wouldn’t kill you since it wasn’t a true force bond. It explains the ending in a simpler way to me anyhow.
I felt that the Force Bond was either Kreia's manipulations, and theater, or that by the conclusion of the game, the bond, if legit, was changed by Surik's experiences to that point, that it was severed, or too weak to have any lethal reciprocating effects.
It is strongly hinted that that is the case, that she simply lied to Meetra when she implied the bond could be fatal. And then if you take game mechanics into account it's proven that it isn't, because when one dies in combat it doesn't kill the other.
My last play through, unmodded, I was able to avoid fighting Atria and Kreia. Gosh, Atria was a pain and kept talking in circles, making me want to lash out at her, but I finally found the way to avoid fighting. If I remember correctly, without fighting Atria, you don't get one of the girls as a companion. Yet, Kreia still won through her teachings, because even tho I followed a mostly light sided playthrough, it was nice to have that last chat with her instead of the final fight at the end. When you know it's possible to just chat, she starts off asking, "You aren't really a Jedi, are you?". That is your clue to being successful in being able to avoid the final conflict.
Really great video! As a long term and current player of swtor, I completely agree of these missed opportunities… granted, swtor is great for what it is but there is hands down no better story and complexity than kotor2. Thanks for this !
The consequences of carrying the 'Force euthanasia' plan through are fascinating. It is perhaps this choice that Kreia had imagined. She wanted to sever the galaxy from the Force to choke away the Sith Empire's power, this only gave her more conviction, and as all the True Sith would likely choose to retain their Force connection, their glorious empire would collapse overnight. This only begs the question, what would an apt and refined Emperor do to counteract the plan?
As of watching/listening to this video, I'm almost finished reading the Yuuzhan Vong book series and I'm forced to wonder. If the Yuuzhan Vong came during the old republic instead of the New Republic, would Kreia have become their biggest supporter or herald, since they are technically blind beings in the force?
Except this video is too Kreia-centric, in that it takes for granted that Kreia is right. It insists she’s the anti-villain, simply because Kreia describes herself as the anti-villain. It agrees with her portrayal of the Force as a malevolent god as gospel, rather than the rationalizations of someone desperate to find a great other to blame for the suffering she’s seen. It gets to the point of saying the Meetra Surik becoming a normal Jedi instead of some arbiter of Kreia’s will is a betrayal of all that was set up, when in fact, what was set up was Meetra summarily rejecting Kreia’s ideals. Kreia was wrong.
she wanted to create a wound in the force. id say she succeeded. The only question is, what did the dark side reward her with. You know cause it does that with great offerings
Finally! This is why KotOR II is the best SW story ever written. I played the game over and over again, my gf at that time could not understand my obsession to a game that I've already played a couple of times before. I was enchanted whenever Kreia spoke, always finding some new meanings. She was fighting with the god of SW universe, the belief system which she believed corrupt. Her greatest students were ready to take responsibility of their own actions, she taught them that while Jedi hiding behind an untouchable religion. "Apathy is death." Sith were just a dark mirror to the same mistake and their mistakes were creating so many echoes, touching so many souls, spreading that insidious and egotistic god's influence over all those living in the galaxy and affecting their lives, it was just not right. Kreia was the best character ever written for a game. I got excited again while watching this video. Thank you.
There is a character I can think of that is like Kreia in one or more aspects: Solas from Dragon Age. The thing is I am a fan of both of these worlds. He is evasive, yet helpful, but in the end he is the big bad for the upcoming game. Just like Kreia he helps, but never tells you the complete truth of what he is doing, or why, and when you find that all out he are just slack jawed about it all.
First play through of DAI I was taken aback by him being the big bad. When I replayed it was obvious through his dialogue. The only time I ever really thought anything suspicious of Solas in first playthrough was that one dungeon with the ancient elves, where you can choose who to give the power of the well to. But even then I was like "Oh, bet he's like an elf that kept his immortality." I mean I was kinda right. I like those kinda characters. Atlas in BioShock was another good one.
Love the new update! Made my day! I've watched your old video so many times. I personally feel that Kreia is more wise and powerful in the force than even Sidious. I would love to know what your thoughts are on that
@@100StarWars I agree definitely wiser, but isn't knowledge not power? Kreia could even could cut off multiple Jedi from the force at the same time? It's possible Palpatine did not know of this ability by his time. Looking forward to more videos from you. ❤️
This game was so interesting this and bioshock I remember playing and my first playthrough I'm like " I have no idea what's going on" it took a second run and really began to understand the plots. Kotor 2 was so amazing because it presents a question that realistically whould and chould change the entire dynamic the force in the star wars lore.
Loved this video - years later playing kotor 2 again while listening to this. As a kid back then I thought she was just a sith. Oh look grey face, she’s the final boss? This is way deeper than I remembered
I'm still impressed that plenty of people where ucapable of understanding kreia's motives, for me it was obvious and I did actually finished the game with this ending in which you leave visas to impart kreia's teaching and the exile goes off in search for revan's whereabouts
Kreia wanted revenge. She's the old crone who's been so hurt by what she believes the force has done. She sees that same pain in the exile, and the others. That this trauma has hurt us all, so let's put a stop to it. She uses the idea of your pain to motivate you to help her end all of the pain and trauma the the force creates in her mind. It's revenge.
Fairly sure I watched your old vid on the subject as I instantly recognised your voice but I could be mistaken. Anyway the graphics look better than I remember is there a graphics overhaul mod or has it just been too long since I played the game?
Bruh when I grew up kriea was still in my ear warning me about giving things to people who have not earned it this was and still is my favorite game of all time even more than the first and I loved the first and I think this paved way for mass effect my second fav
5:00 Did people not know that the echoes thing basically meant “your actions have consequences?” I thought it was obvious. You throw a stone at a lake and it causes ripples, shouting into a canyon causes echoes. Other people may feel those ripples and hear those echoes and will be affected by it, whether by a little or by a lot, they will be affected by it.
There is a lot of speculation here. Specially when stating that Kreia wants to "kill" or deafen the universe of the force. I mean, the exile existing as someone that can live without the force is something marvelous to her. But there is a huuuge leap between those things.
There is one small problem i have with that Ocean metaphor ... You say that small pebbles create small ripples that isnt felt by anybody ... i think that is a missconception, there is no "small action felt by nobody", as Kreia is trying to teach us on Nar Shaddaa ... even smaller actions create ripples, and as that ripple may seems small, and insignificant, it travels trough the ocean ... and if it meets with another ripple, it may weakens it or it can make them both even stronger (depending on if they go same, or oposite directions) ... wich can be used to create strong echo. That is why Kreia is teaching us to be carefull with our action ... everything we do (or dont as the matter of fact) creates an echo (feel free to read as: Have consequences) and as it may wrongly seem small and insignificant ... there are bazzillions of them on the scale of the whole galaxy, and they all interact with each other ... therefore if we are not careful enough, we can start a cascade of events that will evolve in greater darkness. That is why Kreia urges us to carefully observe the situation first, think about consequences of our actions, and only then if we believe we know what we did decide how (or if) we should act. I wonder what was her opinion about Mandalorian wars. O_o
I love Kreia neither Jedi or Sith. Please do Force Bonds. I loved KOTR2!!! You have answered all my questions but 1, Kreia’s unique ability to use Shatterpoint.
The writing for the KOTOR games set a bar so high to achieve. To even compare to. And since Disney came into it there's been nothing even close to being as well written and complex as Kreia.
My first playthrough of this game i understood her goal after this specific line " I hate the force". She wanted to kill the force which would mean the death of everything, but she is not like nihilus who in similar fashion wants to feed on it and in the process destroy everything, she wants more exiles, people able to live apart from the force become a void and spread that teaching, which is why she asks you to stay and teach after activating the machine on malachor. She would view the causalities as a necessary evil, anything to relinquish control from the force itself. This is why she loves the exile, because her nature changed untouched by the force as she says "A Black Spot" yet able to use the force through others bonds. Her first goal was to prove the council wrong, teach the exile and succeed where she failed with sion and nihilus to mentally understand how their dogmas weakened them from doing what is necessary and recognizing the manipulations in everything, both dark side and light, and by betraying them both to serve your own will is true freedom and power. Hanhaar was an example of strength yet chained down by his life debt, and how strength should be earned not handed to, which the force does weakening the individual from learning to rely on themselves, which the Sith code provides an answer to, but she also suggests a good behavior if it suits the exiles goals. She is teaching the exile the lessons of betrayal of self, of teachings, and even of the one you call master, use them and their challenges to make yourself competent and strong, stop relying on the force for everything, use it like a poison. (ironically Kreia failed to see how she was a slave to her own will) She traded the enslavement of the force and teachings for her own, she couldn't help but be who she is as flawed, remember she named her apprentices listen to their names their failings are her character flaws i will show you "Nihilism, Hunger" and "Sion, Pain" The word Sion like "scion" means "To heir" to embody, or inherit, so he inherited the part of kreia and mastered it her pain, and the other her nihilistic hunger.
17:45 Except she made it quite clear she was doing it because she was upset at what the Force did to HER, not others. She was being entirely selfish, which is why a light side exile can convince her she was mistaken.
Kiera tells you plainly what her plans is. She has grown to hate the force and she hates that the force has a of it's own. You are a wound in the force, the will of the force has no hold on you. She wanted to use you to kill the. She also wanted to know how could you turn away from the force while the rest of the Jedi fell to the dark side during the war. Mandalorian war
@100%starwars You should do a video on Atris. Who was she? Why was she important? Who was she before KOTOR2 and what happened to her after? Atris survived but...she survived with the sith Holocrons...what happened to all of the Holocrons? What was her legacy?
I told you all some juicy content was coming this year! This is one of the biggest KOTOR videos I've ever made, so I hope you all enjoy it and I'd really appreciate it if you let me know what you thought of the video down below! Also you will get an *'Influence Gained'* from me if you come follow me on Twitter! - twitter.com/100PerStarWars
I still want to see a video about the flaws of the Jedi and the Code you mentioned
This was a great video. I will ponder your reflections of Kreia. And I do believe you inspired me to share my own. Including in response to yours. I just wonder how different the current moment in SWTOR would be. This is supposing if the game had both been consistent with both Kotors and also had more development in its expacs. For Legacy of the Sith does go back to Nihilus, and even has its own betrayer in Malgus.
I'll be waiting for you to make a 3 hours long video one day ;) Just like that one that covers Kreya's philosophy, heh
Gotta say, there's a lot of things in this video I disagree with. Kreia is a horrible person, and her perspective on the Force is wrong. Her plan is to use the "Force Echo" thing to force everyone in the galaxy go through the same suffering the Exile did at Malachor in an attempt to try to force them make the choice that she wants them to: To either separate themselves from the Force and live in a manner that she approves of, or die. All because she's under some delusion that the Force is some sort of brain-controlling monster that tricks people into doing things, rather than them just doing what they choose of their own free will whether it's aligned with the will of the Force or not.
Even if you convince her not to go through with it she acts like she's achieved something by losing because you're supposedly going to teach the next generation her teachings and this somehow proves that she was right about everything all along, she's self-absorbed and arrogant to boot.
Her name as a Sith Lord: "Traya" is short for what she really is, a betrayer. She represents the third part of the Sith Triumvirate; pain, hunger and betrayal; just a few of the horrible things that using the dark side results in. She guides you throughout the game trying to get you to see things through her twisted view and uses you as a tool for her own devices; she claims that she "loves" you, or more accurately what you represent, and yet she still tries to kill you; I guess that's not surprising coming from someone who thinks it's normal to betray what you believe in. Her tangent about believing in an ideal means you have to be willing to betray it is psychopathic, subversive nonsense; belief in an ideal does not require betrayal.
She's definitely a fascinating character who's mostly well-written and her voice actress did an incredible job, and I can see why so many people are captivated by her; but holy crap guys, she's freaking evil. Her plan (assuming it would work) would involve killing most, if not everyone in the galaxy. She'd rather put everyone through immense suffering and/or an excruciating death rather than admit that she's wrong about anything. She straight up says she'd kill the entire galaxy for you because she supposedly "loves" you, and she "loves" you mostly because you supposedly represent her being right. Saying her goals are noble is messed up, I think some people drink too much haterade about the Jedi and the Force and this makes them ignore when people like Kreia are actually horrible people who want to do horrible things.
@@alaskamark4562 Kreia was not a good person indeed. She had many good perspectives and offered much wisdom. But a good person? Not at all.
As for the betraying ideals statement. It's not psychotic at all. It simply means not be so unbelievably devoted to something you're not willing to see its flaws - and if those flaws become a hinderance, be willing to turn away and if necessary go against them.
I still remember hearing Kreia say “Because I hate the Force” at the end of the game and being taken aback. I’ve never heard a character say something like that in Star Wars before and actually intend to destroy it. I’ve not seen a more well written character since then.
Yeah it was a truly novel and interesting view on the force for sure, since in basically all other Star Wars content the force wielders use the force and believe it has a will of it’s own, but are ok with it. She was the first being to challenge that and loathe the forces influence on the galaxy
I would argue she is one of the better written characters in all of sci-fi. Let alone stars wars. Chris really outdone himself here
She absolutely is the best written character in all of Star Wars, arguably in all of fiction, period.
@@monkeysk8er33 definitely agree that she’s the best written Star Wars character and one of the best written in all of fiction. The writing is a big part of why I love KOTOR 2 so much
@@aamirrazak3467 Well to be fair the Force's Will would technically be the combined will of EVERYONE in the galaxy including your own.
The thing I love most about Kotor II’s story is how it always feels like you’re fighting against something much greater than yourself. Of course you have your key villains, but the actual conflict is something cosmic, something you can’t comprehend and must simply interpret whether or not your choices are doing something about it. That’s something I feel every RPG in this vein hasn’t accomplished since.
The RPG audience only like murderhobo wish fulfillment pretty much. Even obsidiant went this way in pillars 2 with myriads of waifubait and people out of nowhere barging in your room asking for sex
What is the Force actually?
A differente question.
What really IS the force?
@@JoaoVictor-rg5ix by itself, the Force is a sort of "sea" of energy, that, through its will, created life. All life created by the Force energy is bound to it, and can tap into its power with the right training. It is believed that the Force can influence the choices of living beings, choosing how events play out.
Being a force of nature, the Force seeks to maintain a balance, but many different groups have formed different views on what this Balance entails, with the Jedi strongly believing it refers to the total absence of the Sith and the Dark Side.
Of course, not all life is connected to it, as seen with the Yuuzhan Vong, for example, and under situations of extreme pressure and suffering, a being and/or place can sever their connection to the Force, as it happened to the Exile and Nihilus, resulting in what is known as a Wound in the Force, a hole in its fabric where its will is greatly weakened, and where life turns into something that can become chaotic and unstable.
A few examples of Wounds in the Force are:
-Meetra Surik: Also referred to as the Exile, she was a Jedi Knight, and one of Revan's generals during the Mandalorian Wars. She gave the order to activate a superweapon known as the Mass Shadow Generator in the Battle of Malachor V(the last of the conflict), and, watching all the death it caused and hearing the screams of the dying that echoed through the Force, she unconciously severed her connection to the Force, out of fear of what the echo caused could mean to her. Upon returning to the Jedi Council, she was exiled for her disobedience to the wishes of the Order's ruling body, and stripped of any remaining connections to the Jedi. She played an instrumental role in the later Dark Wars, where she was tasked with saving a republic that was on the brink of collapse, rebuilding the Jedi Order, and stopping the phantom organization of dark side users known as the SIth Triumvirate before it was too late.
-Darth Nihilus: Although his origins are not completely clear, it is known that he was a jedi present in Malachor V when the MSG destroyed the world. Having gone through a similar process to that of the Exile, he lost his connection to the Force, but, unlike Surik, he refused to let go of it. Using an ancient technique that was lost to time, he consumed other life forms in order to restore his connection to the Force for some time, a power that eventually corrupted him completely. He was responsible for the massacre of Katarr during the First Jedi Purge, and was one of the 3 leaders of the Sith Triumirate.
-Malachor V: Being the epicenter of the activation of the MSG, Malachor V was ravaged by the last battle of the Mandalorian Wars, becoming little more than a formation of rock and swirling energy, constantly his by storms. On its surface, it was possible to hear the screams of those who died to the superweapon, an effect that greatly affects Force Users, and can be used to turn them to the dark side. At its core, the Triumvirate built an academy to train the Dark Jedi that joined them, although it is also said the place was used by Revan during the Jedi Civil War to turn Jedi to his cause.
Other possible Wounds:
-Alderaan: I think most people know why it could be a Wound in the Force at this point.
-Bao Dur: He was an Iridonian mechanic who worked closely with Meetra Surik during the Mandalorian Wars, and later reunited with her in Telos IV. Although he never shows any signs of carrying a Wound, he says the Battle at Malachor V greatly affected him, and Kreia has trouble reading his thoughts.
This is my take on it. Sorry for the long text, and mostly focusing on what a Wound in the Force is. I hope this helped you understand
@@matiasvonbischhoffshausen1307 i will eventually re-read it. But thanks anyway.
This is why I really believed Sara Kesleman was the perfect actrsss for this role in the first 2 minutes of your video. The way she speaks with wisdom and conviction brings such life and depth to Chris’s writing. It was truly the best thing we could have asked for.
Yee
Agreed she really did a superb job as Kreia I can’t imagine anyone else voicing the character
I’m still amazed she hasn’t done much more work since KOTOR. She’s exceptionally talented.
Absolutely
Probably the best voice acting I”ve ever heard. She did an amazing job with Kreia.
Kreia, I feel, is a character that could never happen again. At least not in Star Wars. She is such a unique character for the story and her writer did an amazing job actualizing her, though of course her VA was perfect for bringing the character to life.
Why isn’t kotor a movie
@@anthonyfowler2623 You would need atleast a series to show a fraction of the depth of the games, esp kotor 2. These games, while cinematics, arent made to be movie like a Naughty Dog production
Coming soon to disney + "runining the character of kreia"
@@anthonyfowler2623People have tried but it always turns into development hell. Weather its story, scale, special effects/CGI, actors/VA and etc.
I feel that she was either written with a deliberate flaw in her reasoning or it was the result of the writers themselves not realising that destroying or draining the Living Force would have no effect upon the galaxy being manipulated by the Will of the Force which itself originates from the Cosmic Force.
KoTOR2 was released in 2004 and the Living Force was first mentioned in 2000 in a Darth Maul novel so that part would have been known to the writers, The Cosmic Force didn't get its name until novels used the term in 2008 but the distinction between two aspects of the Force predated the term being used so maybe it was some obscure fact the writers overlooked when working with the Lucasfilm story team.
My favorite quote from her was something like, “true victory is not silencing your enemies but rather opening their eyes to see the truth in what you speak.” Something like that, not a word for word quote
What Kreia said is very similar to one of Sun Tzu's most important tenants from his book, The Art of War. That being it is far more effective to subdue your enemy without fighting. Similarly, she said to Mical, "I? Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things. I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true."
No doubt Kreia would be a chess grandmaster in today's world.
This reminds me of why I enjoy the story of Darth Caedus so much.
Jacen Solo went to study the Force in all aspects, all disciplines. During his travels, it can be interpreted that by viewing the Throne of Balance when Mind Walking, and seeing the vision of a dark future rules by a monstrous Sith Lord, his future daughter at this monster's side, he was seeing the will of the Force and it's intended goal.
He went home and discovered a brewing Civil War, saw where the future could go (one again interpreted as seeing of the Will of the Force) and saw a future of ruin, where he killed Luke Skywalker and everything went to hell in a hand basket, and thus became a Sith, finding a way he believed he could maintain his humanity via sacrifice and keeping his pain alive, ultimately uniting the entire Galaxy against him.
And he won.
He lost the war and died yes, Jaina killed him, but he brought peace, he united all these warring factions against him and truly united the known galaxy. Not only that but he changed the Flow of the Force with a long reaching echo of his actions, to where Alana Solo, his daughter sat on the Throne Balance in an era of light and peace, surrounded by friends from all races in the Galaxy.
He was a odd case, but I feel Kreia would call him a proof she was right.
Through sheer grit of will, Jacen ignored the will of the Force and made an echo with his actions so massive it's entire flow altered. Proving his free will over the Force.
At least that is how I see it.
I've read only Dark Nest trilogy, yet to read Lotf...
Change in Jacen's character is stupid, because it doesn't work at all. That way Denning retconned events from NJO and lied about them.
I mean, if only preparing to this Caedus stuff destroyed his character, what Lotf will do.
I always wished they would have adapted the Legacy of the Force novels as the sequel trilogy instead of what we got. It would have been far more interesting while still giving everyone the nostalgia they wished for in seeing Luke, Han, and Leia again.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в you really should keep going. It does get into Jacen's Psychology more and earlier on.
It's a natural through line, especially when you look at what Luke and Ben learned retracing his Journey in Fate of the Jedi.
Trust me, it's worth it.
@@tristanalain9239 No worries, I will. However it seems like I hate it already. It's simply 180 percent twist of character. It didn't make sense so they needed retcons of his previous story. Doesn't looks good.
Think it was a waste of off him. Jaina stinks.
The fact we are discussing this game, both 1 & 2, these many years later, is a credit and testament to the quality of the story and it's characters. I sat through this whole video and now see kreia in a different light after my like 20 some play throughs. Awesome video mate.
I’ve absolutely loved Kreia for years-such a brilliant character, brilliantly portrayed. The way KOTOR2 was shipped was absolutely criminal-I was so grateful for the restored content mod.
She was trying to wound the force so much that it would let go of it's grip of the Universe, ultimately giving us free will. She pretty much tells you how much she hates the force and uses it as one would a poison in order to understand it and kill it. That's why the Exile was so significant, because she could have destroyed the hold the force has over everyone.
It's not because the Exile could destroy the Force's Will, it's because the Exile was evidence that one COULD live without the Force's Will. Kreia further explores this idea in the Jedi Enclave when she severs the Jedi Master's from the Force, she is hoping that one of them might make the same choice the Exile did on Malachor V and choose to give up their connection rather than grasping onto the Force as it was ripped away from them. But they do not give it up, they struggle to hold onto it and it causes them to die.
Because of this Kreia comes to decide that it is not realistic for other's to turn away from the Force so easily and that the event is something unique, that in order to force someone to let go would require wounding someone’s force connection so badly that they would subconsciously let go in order to survive the trauma. But she finds solace in the idea that she may teach the Exile and that the Exile may lead a new Order that is free from the Force's Will by extension of the Exile.
Her ideas are actually wrong, confirmed by Avellone himself.
And, given SW lore, and "Force bindes everything" her destruction of the Force would kill everybody.
Force is not evil, Kreia is just a big failure that blames Force for her failures in Jedi and Sith ideology.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в The Exile is literal proof that it is possible to live without the Force, that’s the whole point of the Exile. That’s like primarily why she got exiled. “And where they look at you and see the death of the Force, I look at you and see hope for all life.” Mical to the Jedi Exile.
And how does Avellone prove her points wrong? You can’t just say that without explaining or at least giving a general source?
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в How do you know the force is not evil? We know that the Jedi worship her, on the contrary, the Sith try to control her. We only know about the force itself that it can give the user abilities such as telekinesis, mind control...
We also know that it has a dark and a light side. Not only did Kreia see both the dark side and the light side, but she also saw siths and jedi. She perfectly understands both parties and their ideologies. The strange thing is that jedis and siths don't try to learn anything new about the force. Jedi just blindly follow the will of the force without asking questions. The only thing siths want to learn about the force is how best to destroy their enemies with it. Another strange thing is how long the conflict lasts. Siths and Jedi have been fighting each other for thousands of years, even if they don't know why. What if there is something else behind it. What if the force itself is behind it? That which is a tool of the Shits and an ally of the Jedi is their enemy. But why would the force do that? What would it achieve? Well, as I said, force has two sides. Light and dark. Others always prevail. But why? Why are there times when dark is stronger than light. It looks as if the force is trying to maintain some kind of balance. Like she's using the siths and jedis to kill the each other.. Only to achieve some kind of balance. You might be thinking:
Even if this were true, the annihilation forces would kill everything living in the galaxy. The answer to that - not necessarily.
Because Kreia found a person who could live a very long time without surviving without force. Known as Jedi Exile. This means that there is a chance that some creatures could survive. Whatever you think of Krea, one thing is clear. Of all the characters in star wars, she knows the most about the force. She felt both the light and the dark side and actively studied it.
@@ПавелВойтко-п7в You’re taking that statement out of context.
Avellone is not saying he wrote Kreia to be wrong, he’s reaffirming that your opinion as the player does not have to agree with Kreia. That is why he says “PC”, because only you get to decide the story of your PC, meanwhile “the Exile” has a canon disposition. His next comment was “If you don’t let the player decide for themselves, then the game becomes a pulpit, not a RPG.”
So as the player you decide whether or not Kreia is right but Avellone certainly did not write her to be wrong. He has gone on interview (3 years ago) saying that his inspiration for the story line came from his own examination of the Force and it’s apparent will, that he dislikes predestination by virtue of being an RPG designer, ending it by saying “All of those things kind of bothered me.” He basically shares the opinion of Kreia, it’s the driving point, but the PC still gets to decide whether or not it’s correct.
What’s most interesting about Kreia is how her philosophy is so different to other Jedi and Sith throughout the franchise. Qui-Gon saw the value in the Force as a whole. Both the Jedi Council of the Old Republic and during the Clone Wars were dogmatic organizations that feared emotions and rejected basic humanity in fear of falling to the dark side. The Sith in the Old Republic was all about flaunting their power to get whatever they wanted, while the Sith in the Clone Wars hid in plain sight to destroy the Republic and create the Galactic Empire. Yet both Jedi and Sith had a certain commonality… both connected strongly to the Force, attempting to understand it’s secrets and will. Kreia, in the other hand, hated the fact that the Force even had a will. She hated being connected with something that lived and worked like the Force did because she felt enslaved to the Force. Yet, in a certain way, she CAN be right. Some can become enslaved by the Force, or rather the side of the Force they choose to follow, such as Darth Vader, but others can see it as an ally, such as Luke Skywalker (in Legends mostly) and Qui-Gon Jinn
George Lucas is a terrible writer, great imagination and visual artist but a really terrible writer.
@100StarWars You know, it's fascinating, Kreia became everything she despised. She did an excellent job of exposing the failings of the Jedi and the Sith as both wrong and inadequate paths. And yet, she failed to reveal or exemplify where a truly better path lay. In the way that she lived, she was like a Sith, but simply with more subtelty. Her goals were her own, but every life around her was no more to her than a means to her end.
She hated the force because she believed it was manipulating the people of the galaxy and sacrificing so many of their lives for it's own ends. But she manipulated people on a massive scale, intending and willing to kill as many people as it took, even if it was most of the galaxy, to destroy the force she hated.
And in it all, she never seemed to consider the possibility that perhaps it was not the force after all that caused such destruction. Perhaps it was people like her who truly manipulated the galaxy and caused mass destruction and ruin. Perhaps the force was merely a means by which it was accomplished. Perhaps, it was simply the natural course of human nature when it is corrupt.
Such is the hypocrisy of subjective morality. She wanted what she wanted because of her own feelings and experiences and perspective, and she would sacrifice anything and anyone to accomplish it, not for others, but for herself; and she treated people as no more than tools, the very thing that she hated the force for seeming to have done.
Her example was one of manipulation, of teaching some if it suited her purpose, and throwing away the lives of others if it achieved her goal. It was the kind of concept of freewill that scorns the idea of objective right and wrong, and so is willing to do anything to anyone to get what it wants. Desiring revenge for all pain caused to her, but willing to cause such pain to anyone else if it suited her aims.
She is a lesson. A lesson of the kind of destructive hypocrisy one falls into if enforcing what you want becomes more important than truth or right. A lesson of how corrupted wisdom can be used to destroy, instead of to heal. And a lesson that perceiving the failings of others does not mean you have found truth yourself.
One of the great masterpieces in her tale is perhaps that her story is even more tragic than that of either the Jedi or the Sith. For she saw the failings of both, and yet herself failed to find the way that was better, but instead fell into a path no less empty. Manipulation. Betrayal. And corruption. And in the end, she was still lost.
We'll never know if she actually found a better way because the writers that followed diverged from Kreia and the Kotor 2 lore after it ended. The canon could have been that the exile stayed at Malachor to teach a new group of force users or that the exile had killed themself at Malachor to deafen most of the known galaxy to the force, those would be awesome ideas to explore but they weren't and it kinda sucks.
One thing not to get boggled down onto is the idea of subjective morality since morality itself IS a human belief and differs among individuals, objective morality does not exist in the real world (by extension, subjective morality makes up ALL morality so there's really no point using objective/subjective to divide it). Even in Star wars I do not believe there is objective morality either, the force represents a powerful entity but not a divine or absolute one and it's incredibly fallable by human moral standards (and the standards of many beings in the star wars universe) considering it willingly allows it's users to use force powers for malicious or evil means. It allows light or dark side influence and powers based on the mental state of the individuals and how their thoughts affect their choices/actions, but not to the action itself that is being committed (this is likely why killing innocents, or even evil or cruel npcs who aren't presently attacking you in the game will likely net you dark side alignment, but killing hundreds of hostile npc's who are actively attacking you in the game doesn't affect alignment at all). The force is completely tied to ones state of mind and the influence goes both ways between the force and it's user.
I also don't think it's fair to argue she was just a more subtle sith, she didn't actively pursue the suffering of others, or more power, she also scolds you for doing things that are aligned with sith or dark-side behaviour, like murdering thugs, like threatening poor beggars, like murdering the jedi masters, ultimately she avoided actions that would allow the force to alter her state of mind and shift her out of balance, and only made actions where it would help lead to an outcome she desired (which wasn't just destructive or evil btw, stopping Atris and leading to the defeat and death of Darth Nihilus was incredibly important to prevent further suffering and death/destruction.
For as much as she wasn't benevolent, I also don't think she was malevolent either, at the very least her actions were not intended to increase suffering or death just for personal pleasure.
@@Shinobi_Fox It's true she didn't do it for the purpose of enjoying causing others to suffer, but that does not mean it was not evil. Evil is possibly most often done by those who are willing to do anything necessary to accomplish their goals, no matter how it affects others. In the end of the game she explains that her true motivation is that she hates the force, and while she says that's because it "uses them all to achieve some measure of balance, while countless lives are lost," that makes her an incredible hypocrite, because she was willing to cause what could potentially be even greater destruction to achieve her goal. That's still evil.
But the assuming that all morality is subjective and mere opinion simply because people have differing opinions seems a large leap indeed. It would be a similar claim to say that radio waves are only real if you have your radio turned on. Or a better example, it's like saying the facts of a crime are dependent on the opinion each witness had from their angle, instead of the cross-examined facts used to make a case. (Any judge or jury will be able to tell you that is incorrect) The fact that people and cultures have different opinions on morality is similarly not evidence that morality is subjective. It's actually distinct evidence that there is objective morality, which we're all more or less close to, applied in many ways, and yet which we all look to in some way, which is why every culture has some similar elements of morality despite the differences. If you think about it, trying to remove the question of objective morality inherently makes every philosophical discussion entirely meaningless. The reason we philosophize, my friend, is because we are in some way discovering or searching for truth. At least, hopefully. Because when we try to invent our own version, it's the same as when someone invents their own story about what happened in a crime case (i.e., it's a lie).
I think we can say with certainty that Kreia did not find a better way based on this logic: If objective morality exists (which I believe the evidence shows it does), then her way was evil. If objective morality did not exist, then there would be no objective way to classify anything as 'better', and thus she still could not have found a better way.
The reason that we can morally and philosophically see that the path of the Jedi and the Sith are both badly flawed (and Kreia's as well), creating either a destructive self centerdness or a complete lack of identity (or in Kreia's case, an arrogance that manifests in willingness to do anything to anyone to achieve what she wanted), is because we know both intuitively and by observing the evidence, that we were designed to live in a different way, and that it is objectively better. It is one of the clear evidences that speak of a Designer.
I've just got to say, your commentary on this character and morality is invaluable. So many people have missed the point of characters like Kreia: she is NOT righteous in any way. I've seen countless people just fall for whatever whim tickles their fancy because adhering to a firm moral framework is hard and they don't want to bother trying. That's why these modern, nihilistic "do as thou wilt" ideologies are so appealing: because they're perfect for the self-serving narcissist.
Plus, I'm sick of seeing the Jedi vilified for no reason (this is something the new Mouse overlords are pushing hard too, if their latest failure, The Acolyte, is anything to go by). The Jedi are flawed, but also ultimately a force for good-this is why the demise of their order is still portrayed as a tragedy in RotS. George Lucas has made it abundantly clear that balance in the Force simply means not giving in to one's baser nature, and falling to the dark side is acting out of self-interest.
I read this in Kreia's voice lmao, you have the same way with words that makes her so compelling.
Krea deserves the love and recognition ! in today Star Wars community. we need more videos about her like her origins and who was her master
If they ever remake Kotor 2 it won’t be the same cause the voice actor who did Krea is half of the game
Definitely since she is far more powerfull then even her student Darth Nihilus.
Ps. They will never be able to make a proper Star Wars KOTOR 2 Remake since they will focus on some stupid stuff that disney is dictating, or they won't even understand the main philosophical themes of this game.
You do realize that the voice actress is still alive, right?
@@alistairgrey5089 She is still active even. Made a series back in 2022. But ye, she's almost 80 so maybe she won't be avaible.
@@Gusanoman it would be great to get her to reprise her role for a remake but I doubt that's ever going to happen.
@@alistairgrey5089 I know very little about sound design and production but I think it would be possible to improve the quality of the recorded tracks and rescue the unused content of the game for a remake without need of her.
Such an intelligent and well written character. Almost fourth wall breaking without actually doing so, because Kreia is exactly the kind of person that would figure these things out. A dedicated scholar, powerful force weilder, a renowned teacher (of Revan no less), a Jedi master, a sith lord.. She was right about the force and her theory plays out perfectly through the prequels and original trilogy.
Very interesting take! Yes almost 4th wall breaking.
This got me thinking how the whole game ties beautifully, story plays with mechanics, mechanics plays with story. The will of the force amounts to a single line, a classic grand narrative game script, where you are the good guy or a baddie. But Kreia both rebels and attempts to twist fate, thus the game script is broken. The game mechanics present an alternative, the player/exile is placed in the universe, you are never truly a sith or a jedi but the light and darkness within you grows/changes depending on your actions. You cross lines and never forced to commit to a single side as a player/character because of your wound with this grand will and because as a player you "build" your path rather than blindly follow and thus you have to invest yourself.
Fan-fucking-tastic video. You teach me something new every video, even though I arrogantly thought I had depth in my KOTOR knowledge. Can't wait for more like this. I've never completely understood the force echoes nor wounds in the force, so dedicated videos about them would be amazing. Great work!
In many ways, Kreia's philosophy is very similar to Friedrich Nietzsche, particularly his idea of the Übermensch ("over-man" or "superior-man"). This was highlighted in his 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
In other words, what the game describes as "echoes" is basically like the "butterfly effect." Literally any small action or event may lead to bigger consequences.
Kreia is more of an egoist though
THIS IS WHERE THE FUN BEGINS!
Han Molo: I have a good feeling about this.
@@75JUNAKI Molo?
Another piece of star wars content of only 30 minutes.
Where is the 8 hour Kreia analysis that I crave??????
While there are several long-form analysis videos on TH-cam regarding Kreia and her philosophy, here is a (roughly) 8-hour video analysis on KOTOR II: th-cam.com/video/5texil4EYP4/w-d-xo.html
KOTOR 1&2 are basically the best Star Wars games ever made when it comes to expanding on the lore, especially 2. Kreia’s character is more complex than even Palpatine and Anakin. This is Star Wars at its best and deepest, building on what George created and honoring the source material. That’s how you achieve great Star Wars
Loved staying up till 2 AM playing this back in college days. She is my favorite Dark Lady.
Only 2am? Played until 7:00am following day, went to sleep for two hours then headed to first class at 10:00morning back in the day
@@Discovery2024-rn8kn meh
Kreia wanted to avoid taxes
Well, who doesn't?
Atton: Explain something to me.
Kreia: I do not have the years required, nor the desire to indulge you.
Fantastic video, I too find Kreia to be incredibly interesting, no matter how many times I play the game.
The way she gets you thinking about your actions, your decisions throughout the journey.
Kreia is one of the beat written characters in star wars history
Great take! Honestly, I think both stories were good in themselves, but the issue was that they needed to be 2 separate stories with different characters. Meetra's character arc was done beautifully in the "Revan story" (content related to KOTOR 1) There are some issues with the rewriting, but the fabric of the story is of such quality it survives the damage. The Exile needed to be a separate character in a different story and there was no need to try and relate KOTOR 2 to KOTOR 1 purely through association to Revan. He almost has no bearing on the story, so there was no need to force the connection between the Exile and Revan. As for Kreia's doctrine, it is very difficult to see her in light of anything other than a rebellious villain when her "motivations" are fully delved to their origin. The force is essentially the spiritual life and creator of the SW universe. To divorce any weight or connection to it and utilize it purely as a tool would have dramatic and deadly results. There would be no order and no responsibility to life at all. Anakin Solo speaks to the responsibility force users have to the force in EU novel EoV: Conquest. He learns a great deal about the force through a character who lives completely outside of the force (ironic). "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" and "Suffering begets Life" are axioms too well established, we know what becomes of unchecked power in the hands of mortals. Kreia's doctrine and motivation, though intricate and well written, are essentially the same as "shaking one's fist at the Universe."
As a huge KOTOR 2 fan seeing more videos like this is awesome, great work 100%! Agreed imo Kreia is one of, if not the best written character in all of Star Wars even though I don’t agree with her on everything
You know, you kept saying that kreia won no matter how the events play out yet the fact the galaxy essentially forgot her entirely kinda means that in the end she really didn't win, the changes she sought to bring were not long lasting and her name isn't even a footnote in the history texts. So while I agree that kreia is a awesome character I can not agree with the claim that she won...if anything it was the force itself that had the last laugh.
Is something that has bothered me about Star Wars. No one, not even Jedi historians, seem worried that historical records are lost in every epoch despite the advanced technology, data is easily lost and only the Whills of The Force has a full record of Skyriver history. As if The Force was enforce ignorance.
To be expected sadly. As great as the character was written, she's a little too nuanced and her philosophy almost sort of out of place with the overall meta tone of the star wars universe of epic conflicts between good and evil. She's almost like the fun police in a way, forcing you to think deeper beyond the surface level approach of "cool heroes fighting cool villains with cool weapons and powers".
We like it because we spectate. If it was happening to us, it wouldn't seem nearly as fun and cool. She sort of exists almost as a critique of the original simplicity of the story.
She's fascinating because she stands out so dramatically and differently from everyone else in universe who embraces the force and wants the perks it Grant's. She hates it, and hates that it's partly to blame for her own suffering.
She's the star wars equivalent of an anti theist hypocrite, who knows and hates her own hypocrisy as much as she hates her reliance on the force itself.
That's way too deep for most people, and far too heavy a concept to continue riffing off of for future writers without them getting it and her wrong, or flanderizing.
Besides that, in universe, the jedi weren't going to embrace her "heretical" teachings, and the sith would have ignored her as a weak failure who didn't understand the nature of power.
Only the exile and Revan would have understood her, and tried to pass on some of her teachings. But again considering she basically called out both sides of the force user coin as stupid, they weren't going to listen.
Nothing gets me more excited than long form old republic content 🤩
And the GILF of the Galaxy award goes to...
Sweet validation! Right? I thought I was going crazy, glad I’m not the only one lol
Thought I was cray cray at first
You and I share the same appreciation for Kreia and her teachings. I could listen to her all day. Another TH-camr broke down her philosophy and created a large video essay on it. I listen to it all the time, but I would love if you did something similar to hear your take and thoughts on her ideals and not just her goals. I would love to hear what you agree with her about and if you disagree with her on anything. I admire her but there are several points that she makes that I believe she is wrong in. So I am curious about the conclusions that you draw as well. Looking forward to your next video on the Exile surviving Kreia's death! Keep them coming!
I think I know which one you're talking about.
Too bad the guy who made it is a massive degenerate.
Was it "Kreia's Philosophy: A critical examination of Star Wars"?
@luisisaacdelarosabeltran8476 Yeah that's the one. It's like just shy of 2 hours in length.
@@LaurenEflake It is worth, since it explains quite well Kreia's beliefs and a nice introduction to the Jedi and the Sith. I plan to show it to my mother.
The dependence on the force leaves one oblivious to consequence which is why Kreia emphasises the strength to deny urges and seek contrast for if you understand light, dark and absence of the force while retaining your individuality then you become truly strong.
Indeed. And, since The Force is sophont, then it enforces a fate that no one can deviate. Kreia was truly doing a favour to Skyriver.
a character like Kreia is what the sequels should have had. A non-sith, a non-jedi, one who wants to destroy the force and remove the equation rather than balance it
Dude I'm playing Kotor 2 for the first time at this very moment and I'm asking myself this exact question ^^ your channel ist like godsent, so much valuable information on like everything I want to know about Kotor. Thanks a Lot for your work!
I would love to see a Jedi Order built on Kreia's teachings. In fact, given Kreia's view, her Order would probably include a lot of non-Force users.
This is an amazing video, it so succinctly captivates what makes Kotor 2 so fascinating. I love the mysticism, the profundity, the uniqueness of the story so much and you've explained the nuance of it all so well here.
Isn’t there one other potential outcome you’re missing? That Meetra *does* cut herself off from the force before Kreia dies, thereby avoiding dying from their force bond as mentioned, but instead of going on to lead some new order of free-willed Jedi, Meetra *chooses* with her free will to go back to the Order’s dogmatic ways. It isn’t that the ending was ret-conned, it may just be that Meetra did cut herself off but chose to go back to the Order’s teachings. This would mean Kreia’s plan isn’t full-proof as suggested… It would have been highly likely to succeed because Kreia covered as many potential outcomes as she could, but that’s the thing with Meetra’s free will: even Kreia couldn’t manipulate it in the very end when it really mattered.
She knew Meetra would never do that
How does that outcome happen? Can it be gained in the Light Side path?
Yeah, this video hinges on the idea that Kreia is right; that the Force is some malevolent entity that inhibits free will. But this is demonstrably false, and so much of both KotOR games drive this home. It makes perfect sense that Meetra, after rejecting Kreia’s hollow ideals-preaching the power of free will while refusing to believe in it when it’s been right in front of her all along-would go on to do nothing in the way of spreading these ideals. For Meetra to go back to being a bog standard Jedi instead of some Kreia II makes perfect sense.
@@pwnorbepwned Kreia is right about The Force, is an entity that perpetuates a cycle of death over life under the excuse of "Balance". And we should ignore the Revan novel, since it was written by someone that clearly did not play KOTOR II. I hate that book as Kreia hates The Force.
Awsome vid and so well explained! I think it’s so hard to realize what Kreia means because as a fan I’ve always fantasized about using the force and being a Jedi- to think about giving that up if it were a real power maby just isn’t part of many peoples day dreams lol
Beyond amazing and astounding video my friend!!!!! At times when playing KOTOR 2 I wish I could leave Kreia behind and I tried it when playing dark side. Kreia is indeed a unique and fascinating character and I believe to be more powerful than Emperor Palpatine
This is the kind of storytelling that makes this game a genuine masterpiece. You not only replay it to see how your choices affect the story, but you also inevitably delve deeper into the story's themes and get something new out of it each time you play it. You don't just beat the bad guys and call it a day. As you learn more about everyone's motivations and backgrounds, you question whether you're doing the right thing and who is actually good or evil. It's exactly this kind of multi-layered and nuanced exposition that made KOTOR and the Final Fantasy series so memorable and still playable to this day despite literally being decades old now. It's also why these games are being re-made: FFVII and KOTOR that is. Fans have also clamored to have FFVI remade, but Square said that endeavor would likely take 20 years!
I might have remembered to like the video either way as I actually adored how well made this video was but the apathy is death line was delivered so cheesily that I laughed out loud and liked it immediately after. I would have subbed on that too if I wasn't already subbed. I'm so glad you've been able to keep going despite the less than stellar Kotor remake news and I hope you're able to keep making such brilliant star wars and Kotor content despite that.
My favorite video game villain. And Sara Kestelman made such a stellar voice for her. Got shivers everytime.
I like your idea on this force bond between Metra and Keira I always thought it was simply another one of Kreia’s manipulations to keep her close
Hello 100%SW - this was my first video of yours i had watched only 2 days ago, now my count of watched ones is over 12 or so, LOVE THEM! Keep on trucken' oh....er...haulen'... there better!
Your coverage of all things Star Wars is just spectacular presentation and your voice / accent is just wonderful. slight bone in my craw though, no fault of yours, but discovered that YT CC "translation to 'English' sucks hind bantha poo doo! Not sure if you have a fan or two to re'CC your videos, but damn do they need it! If not, I might have some time to start it, but not sure how to submit it for inclusion.
Glad you're enjoying the content and thanks for the kind words! What Language are you having trouble with in translation?
@@100StarWars ahh, I need to clarify, I am a English language native, however I can't listen/hear as well as in the past, so I like to read what I am hearing so I miss fewer details. The CC in English is so bad most of the time, especially names in SW and some specialized terms.
like I've said several times to my friends while attempting to describe this game: KOTOR 2 is a full philosophy college graduation.
Kreia is easily my all time favorite character ever.
Everything about her, how she interacts with the player and the rest of the characters in the game. Her philosophy, how she thinks. Hell as stupid as this might sound she shaped my current worldview because of how much she made me think as a kid. Sara Kestelman did such a incredible job as her voice actress.
Your video just hit me like a ton of bricks. After watching all the scenes with her in the game and it just enthralls me. I tend now to side with her thinking 100%. I can't thank you enough for your videos. They are all primo.
I'm glad you enjoy them! Thank you for watching :)
Excellent video, i've leaned much, even tho I thought that I understood Kreia well enough after watching hours of content about her
@17:00 By the end of TSL yes, she admits that she would have seen the galaxy die just to preserve a single free individual, however mass genocide of life was not her goal and she outright tells this to Mical on the Ebon Hawk as you point out later in the video. You're correct that creating a new greater wound in the Force would force all Force-Sensitives that could feel it to choose to die, sever or fall, but Atris is incorrect, the rest of the galaxy would not be facing that sort of trilemma. Malachor V's wound was only perceivable to a select few, the rest of the galaxy still "felt" the wound on a subliminal level, but in an entirely different way to the Jedi that were there.
I also think you're going a bit far toward the end when you touch on Kreia's goal of establishing a NJO as a win-condition, namely because the Exile herself still required Malachor V's wound as an impetus toward the choice of severance. Her individual experience is not something that can be replicated in students by merely providing them proof of possibility. That's not a compelling enough reason to throw away the Force when needs must, and Kreia wouldn't be so naïve to believe it was. You can't teach willpower, some learn it on their own via circumstance, but most never do. Either way, you always need to get in the water before you swim or drown. Wounds in the Force would always be necessary.
Kreia's teachings failed for several reasons. Firstly because she didn't actually understand the nature of the Force. It wasn't malicious, and it wasn't a perpetual cycle. There was a beginning of the wars between Jedi and Sith and there was to be an end to them when the Force created Anakin to destroy the Sith as laid down by George Lucas. She lacked perspective and was not yet privy to revelation this early in the timeline, so she can't be blamed for this. Also, the Force itself is created by life to aid in propagating itself as a sort of defense mechanism. Life creates it and makes it grow. Kreia is fighting against the collective will of life itself which unsurprisingly trends toward renewal, not death. She is essentially saying: "I know what life needs better than life itself." Sorry Kreia, but no, you probably don't. Life is a collective, and individual will is always subject to it in Star Wars.
Her entire motivation rests on the idea that things would inevitably be better, not worse when the Force was removed from the equation. She based this belief on nothing more than hopium. The reality is that there would always be wars fought because mankind is fallible and corrupt. For all she knew, the Force may well have been ensuring there were fewer wars, not more with the Jedi acting as a deterrent. This she can be blamed for. "Life sucks for me currently so I'll attempt to reorder the galaxy without knowing the ramifications because things can only get better right? Right..."
Lastly, her teachings have a barrier of entry that is so high even for the exceptionally gifted as to be impractical to pass on reliably. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone then that even within the EU's canon, the Exile didn't pass on her teachings, either out of choice or simple inability. Absolutely agree, with the end sentiment. TOR is shit, Kreia is a magnificent character, a flawed but deeply compelling villain.
It's been too long ever since I've last played KOTOR 2. I can't believe I've slept on the depth of Kreia's character for all these years.
I figured the force bond between you and Kreia was just one of her illusions to tie her to you, meaning that killing her wouldn’t kill you since it wasn’t a true force bond. It explains the ending in a simpler way to me anyhow.
I felt that the Force Bond was either Kreia's manipulations, and theater, or that by the conclusion of the game, the bond, if legit, was changed by Surik's experiences to that point, that it was severed, or too weak to have any lethal reciprocating effects.
It is strongly hinted that that is the case, that she simply lied to Meetra when she implied the bond could be fatal.
And then if you take game mechanics into account it's proven that it isn't, because when one dies in combat it doesn't kill the other.
I now understand the story way more because of this video thank you so much. Subscribed
Best KOTOR title I’ve ever see
My last play through, unmodded, I was able to avoid fighting Atria and Kreia. Gosh, Atria was a pain and kept talking in circles, making me want to lash out at her, but I finally found the way to avoid fighting. If I remember correctly, without fighting Atria, you don't get one of the girls as a companion. Yet, Kreia still won through her teachings, because even tho I followed a mostly light sided playthrough, it was nice to have that last chat with her instead of the final fight at the end. When you know it's possible to just chat, she starts off asking, "You aren't really a Jedi, are you?". That is your clue to being successful in being able to avoid the final conflict.
Really great video! As a long term and current player of swtor, I completely agree of these missed opportunities… granted, swtor is great for what it is but there is hands down no better story and complexity than kotor2. Thanks for this !
The consequences of carrying the 'Force euthanasia' plan through are fascinating. It is perhaps this choice that Kreia had imagined. She wanted to sever the galaxy from the Force to choke away the Sith Empire's power, this only gave her more conviction, and as all the True Sith would likely choose to retain their Force connection, their glorious empire would collapse overnight. This only begs the question, what would an apt and refined Emperor do to counteract the plan?
As of watching/listening to this video, I'm almost finished reading the Yuuzhan Vong book series and I'm forced to wonder. If the Yuuzhan Vong came during the old republic instead of the New Republic, would Kreia have become their biggest supporter or herald, since they are technically blind beings in the force?
Very good video, thoroughly enjoyable and thought provoking in its analysis of Kreia as an “anti-villain”.
Kreia needs to come back for the remake.
Except this video is too Kreia-centric, in that it takes for granted that Kreia is right. It insists she’s the anti-villain, simply because Kreia describes herself as the anti-villain. It agrees with her portrayal of the Force as a malevolent god as gospel, rather than the rationalizations of someone desperate to find a great other to blame for the suffering she’s seen. It gets to the point of saying the Meetra Surik becoming a normal Jedi instead of some arbiter of Kreia’s will is a betrayal of all that was set up, when in fact, what was set up was Meetra summarily rejecting Kreia’s ideals.
Kreia was wrong.
Such an awesome character. Thanks for the video.
she wanted to create a wound in the force. id say she succeeded. The only question is, what did the dark side reward her with. You know cause it does that with great offerings
Finally! This is why KotOR II is the best SW story ever written. I played the game over and over again, my gf at that time could not understand my obsession to a game that I've already played a couple of times before. I was enchanted whenever Kreia spoke, always finding some new meanings. She was fighting with the god of SW universe, the belief system which she believed corrupt. Her greatest students were ready to take responsibility of their own actions, she taught them that while Jedi hiding behind an untouchable religion.
"Apathy is death."
Sith were just a dark mirror to the same mistake and their mistakes were creating so many echoes, touching so many souls, spreading that insidious and egotistic god's influence over all those living in the galaxy and affecting their lives, it was just not right.
Kreia was the best character ever written for a game. I got excited again while watching this video. Thank you.
Did u ever do the force bonds video ? Love the videos u make man and may the face be with u always
Yay new upload~! 🎉🎉🎉
There is a character I can think of that is like Kreia in one or more aspects: Solas from Dragon Age. The thing is I am a fan of both of these worlds. He is evasive, yet helpful, but in the end he is the big bad for the upcoming game. Just like Kreia he helps, but never tells you the complete truth of what he is doing, or why, and when you find that all out he are just slack jawed about it all.
First play through of DAI I was taken aback by him being the big bad. When I replayed it was obvious through his dialogue. The only time I ever really thought anything suspicious of Solas in first playthrough was that one dungeon with the ancient elves, where you can choose who to give the power of the well to. But even then I was like "Oh, bet he's like an elf that kept his immortality." I mean I was kinda right.
I like those kinda characters. Atlas in BioShock was another good one.
According to Chris Avellone, the lead designer of KOTOR II, Kreia was heavily inspired by Ravel Puzzlewell from Planescape: Torment.
@@marklee1194 Cool, I didn't know that.
Phenomenal work as always
Her goal was to drive the player insane with her cryptic riddle-talk.
Incredible, thank you so much!
Love the new update! Made my day! I've watched your old video so many times. I personally feel that Kreia is more wise and powerful in the force than even Sidious.
I would love to know what your thoughts are on that
I believe she was wiser than Sidious for sure! More powerful? Maybe not haha
@@100StarWars
I agree definitely wiser, but isn't knowledge not power? Kreia could even could cut off multiple Jedi from the force at the same time? It's possible Palpatine did not know of this ability by his time.
Looking forward to more videos from you. ❤️
Perfect weekend viewing 😍
This game was so interesting this and bioshock I remember playing and my first playthrough I'm like " I have no idea what's going on" it took a second run and really began to understand the plots. Kotor 2 was so amazing because it presents a question that realistically whould and chould change the entire dynamic the force in the star wars lore.
You honor the Kotor games. Thank you 🙏.
KotOR 2 is one of the best writing pieces of the history of videogames and Star Wars. And Kreia is the living foundation of that writing
Loved this video - years later playing kotor 2 again while listening to this. As a kid back then I thought she was just a sith. Oh look grey face, she’s the final boss? This is way deeper than I remembered
When you said "Paint a Picture" I said to myself omg are we going to have Bob Ross ft. this episode lmao
Great video, loved it
In your opinion, where does Sion fit into your analysis of Kreia’s motivations? I don’t think he was mentioned at all in the video.
I believe Sion was just a lacky, a tool she could control. He was a relic of the old Sith Empires.
most amazing Star Wars character of all time. Kreia is how you do a deconstruction that is engaging Mr Ryan Johnson...
Long have I waited for this day
Opening the video with her exact words *chefs kiss*
Love your videos! How are the graphics so good! is this pc cutscenes?
I'm still impressed that plenty of people where ucapable of understanding kreia's motives, for me it was obvious and I did actually finished the game with this ending in which you leave visas to impart kreia's teaching and the exile goes off in search for revan's whereabouts
She always reminded me of a Nun who just wanted to go home, but knew she had to teach.
Beautifully done. A masterpiece ✨✨someone needs to make a Gigakriea meme
Kreia wanted revenge. She's the old crone who's been so hurt by what she believes the force has done. She sees that same pain in the exile, and the others. That this trauma has hurt us all, so let's put a stop to it. She uses the idea of your pain to motivate you to help her end all of the pain and trauma the the force creates in her mind. It's revenge.
Fairly sure I watched your old vid on the subject as I instantly recognised your voice but I could be mistaken.
Anyway the graphics look better than I remember is there a graphics overhaul mod or has it just been too long since I played the game?
Bruh when I grew up kriea was still in my ear warning me about giving things to people who have not earned it this was and still is my favorite game of all time even more than the first and I loved the first and I think this paved way for mass effect my second fav
5:00 Did people not know that the echoes thing basically meant “your actions have consequences?” I thought it was obvious. You throw a stone at a lake and it causes ripples, shouting into a canyon causes echoes. Other people may feel those ripples and hear those echoes and will be affected by it, whether by a little or by a lot, they will be affected by it.
There is a lot of speculation here. Specially when stating that Kreia wants to "kill" or deafen the universe of the force. I mean, the exile existing as someone that can live without the force is something marvelous to her. But there is a huuuge leap between those things.
There is one small problem i have with that Ocean metaphor ...
You say that small pebbles create small ripples that isnt felt by anybody ... i think that is a missconception, there is no "small action felt by nobody", as Kreia is trying to teach us on Nar Shaddaa ... even smaller actions create ripples, and as that ripple may seems small, and insignificant, it travels trough the ocean ... and if it meets with another ripple, it may weakens it or it can make them both even stronger (depending on if they go same, or oposite directions) ... wich can be used to create strong echo.
That is why Kreia is teaching us to be carefull with our action ... everything we do (or dont as the matter of fact) creates an echo (feel free to read as: Have consequences) and as it may wrongly seem small and insignificant ... there are bazzillions of them on the scale of the whole galaxy, and they all interact with each other ... therefore if we are not careful enough, we can start a cascade of events that will evolve in greater darkness.
That is why Kreia urges us to carefully observe the situation first, think about consequences of our actions, and only then if we believe we know what we did decide how (or if) we should act.
I wonder what was her opinion about Mandalorian wars. O_o
I have a question about the equip screen.. which is off hand as your looking at screen? Ty.
I love Kreia neither Jedi or Sith.
Please do Force Bonds.
I loved KOTR2!!!
You have answered all my questions but 1,
Kreia’s unique ability to use Shatterpoint.
The writing for the KOTOR games set a bar so high to achieve. To even compare to. And since Disney came into it there's been nothing even close to being as well written and complex as Kreia.
Awesome video. Thanks.
She is sort of the “Thanos” of this universe.
My first playthrough of this game i understood her goal after this specific line " I hate the force". She wanted to kill the force which would mean the death of everything, but she is not like nihilus who in similar fashion wants to feed on it and in the process destroy everything, she wants more exiles, people able to live apart from the force become a void and spread that teaching, which is why she asks you to stay and teach after activating the machine on malachor. She would view the causalities as a necessary evil, anything to relinquish control from the force itself. This is why she loves the exile, because her nature changed untouched by the force as she says "A Black Spot" yet able to use the force through others bonds. Her first goal was to prove the council wrong, teach the exile and succeed where she failed with sion and nihilus to mentally understand how their dogmas weakened them from doing what is necessary and recognizing the manipulations in everything, both dark side and light, and by betraying them both to serve your own will is true freedom and power. Hanhaar was an example of strength yet chained down by his life debt, and how strength should be earned not handed to, which the force does weakening the individual from learning to rely on themselves, which the Sith code provides an answer to, but she also suggests a good behavior if it suits the exiles goals. She is teaching the exile the lessons of betrayal of self, of teachings, and even of the one you call master, use them and their challenges to make yourself competent and strong, stop relying on the force for everything, use it like a poison.
(ironically Kreia failed to see how she was a slave to her own will) She traded the enslavement of the force and teachings for her own, she couldn't help but be who she is as flawed, remember she named her apprentices listen to their names their failings are her character flaws i will show you "Nihilism, Hunger" and "Sion, Pain" The word Sion like "scion" means "To heir" to embody, or inherit, so he inherited the part of kreia and mastered it her pain, and the other her nihilistic hunger.
Kreia is not only one of the best character of swkotor games or sw universe. Kreia is one of the best character created.
Amazing video 🙂
17:45 Except she made it quite clear she was doing it because she was upset at what the Force did to HER, not others. She was being entirely selfish, which is why a light side exile can convince her she was mistaken.
18:39 I don't remember G0-T0 being so big 🤔
I’m still playing KOTOR 1 and 2 multiple times every year , now on switch with the cheats gives the games a new way of playing
Kiera tells you plainly what her plans is. She has grown to hate the force and she hates that the force has a of it's own. You are a wound in the force, the will of the force has no hold on you. She wanted to use you to kill the. She also wanted to know how could you turn away from the force while the rest of the Jedi fell to the dark side during the war. Mandalorian war
@100%starwars You should do a video on Atris. Who was she? Why was she important? Who was she before KOTOR2 and what happened to her after? Atris survived but...she survived with the sith Holocrons...what happened to all of the Holocrons? What was her legacy?