I know this one is going to super controversial, so please don't go too harsh on me! But let me know below what you think! Come follow me on twitter for KOTOR Sithposting! twitter.com/100PerStarWars
SWTOR did ruin the Exile completely, it just made Revan extremely bland, a dumbed down version of the character concept. And I'm definitely massively biased because TSL's far more important to me than SWKOTOR. I really hope after we get a remake of K1, we get then K2, then a real K3.
@@BlueMarsalis As a Kotor 2 fan myself, as good as it was I never really felt it mattered, and you wanna know why? Besides Satele’s Jedi Order and much much later Luke’s Jedi Order, the Jedi NEVER stopped being so fucking stupid. Had The Exile stuck around it would have changed events significantly, especially the Jedi’s view on the Force and on Good/Evil. So Meetra going off and dying doesn’t matter in the long run because the Jedi Order never got any better.
Malak in KotOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing. Revan in SWTOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing. Now I know how you felt, my friend. Echoes of Oblivion: Vitiate: No... No! Valkorion: The Force is mine! I command it! Tenebrae: I... am... endless! Revan: No. And in the end, as the Darkness takes you, you are nothing!
I feel like SWTOR should’ve waited to introduce Revan when the time was right. There should’ve been buildup and subtlety to his return and but ultimately reintroduced him too soon.
@@100StarWars I was thinking something more along the lines of he was plotting in the shadows his revenge after a battle between the Republic and the Sith empire caused his prison to be damaged, leading to his escape.
Don’t forget in Onslaught, (Echoes of Oblivion) Revan finally completes his quest of killing Tenebrae with the help of everyone else that was killed through Tenebrae’s manipulation...
Everyone he has wronged and killed as Tenebrae, Vitiate, or Valkorion, all returned from the afterlife momentarlally to do one thing, to destroy him forever
I think one of the biggest things about revan in Swtor is that he realizes that throughout all of these things, he’s tried to shoulder the burden alone. Revan was very much in a way, the embodiment of the Jedi’s self sacrificing ideology after his return to the light. That, and the constant betrayal he suffered from made him take things onto his own shoulders and believing that only he could do it. So in his last moments before he dies, he entrusts the player to be the one to finish what he and so many other had started years ago. The man who didn’t want to trust others entrusted his final mission to another. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things that’s been done with revan. He realizes that he didn’t have to shoulder everything by himself, and puts faith in others to continue the fight.
I disagree, Revan has always been a Pendulum imo. He swayed both directions often but that's because this is a blank slate for you to fill in, imo the whole darkness and lightside was always part of Revan, I wouldn't say self sacrificing but he was definitely the vanguard to protecting those he cared about, which isn't Jedi minded because he forms attachment as we've seen with Bastila. I think the spirits being what they were was completely stupid and not done well, and hell in the end we just have Revan as Jedi which imo shouldn't happen when you merge light and dark like that.
You make some really great points, and I totally see where you are coming from, and I also think that you show that thematically what TOR did with Revan does work with his previously established character; but I still hold that TOR (and the Revan novel) does seriously injure the character in a major aspect. Namely, as Kriea said "Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example, it was him. And there is something that the Council will never understand...that perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference more than anyone knew." Now this is just Kriea's point of view, so she could be wrong, but Revan never actually falling to the Dark Side is the subtle motif that traces throughout KOTOR 2, and connects to aspects of the original KOTOR where Carth and other characters admit that Revan was not a butcher, he had a reason for doing everything. But the Revan novel and TOR removed some of the most important aspects of Revan's character, his mind, his will, and the mystery surrounding the character. The developers had to handwave all these things away so they could shoehorn Revan into TOR, because, yeah, why wouldn't you have your most popular character in your MMO. No, Revan's character was not ruined by TOR, but they stripped the character of much of what made him intriguing to instead focus the only aspects of him that could work for TOR. He had to be dominated by Emperor Vitiate, forcibly turned to the Dark Side (twice) because it was the best way for TOR to work narratively, the previous narrative established by KOTOR 1&2 be damned. But that's just my feeling. You do great work, really appreciate it. May the Force be with you!
It's even worse than that, really. They just wanted to use him to sell subscriptions by making him into a dungeon boss. You take all that narrative, all that nuance, and have him show up in a collective scene that has maybe ten minutes of dialogue between both sides, and kill him off in a single boss fight. Yeah, sure, there was the tie in novel, but it always just screamed at me that it was just product placement. Yeah, launch TOR was bad. Really bad.
honestly it would been cooler if vitiaite didnt make himfall magically but his mere existance and pressence scared revan so much to be willign to go as far as he went but the stoyrwehave is the story we have and I quite liek swtor
I came here to say the same thing. Revan was a fun player avatar in KOTOR 1, but not really a character. KOTOR 2 made Revan interesting. Kreia's musings on Revan added a depth to the traditional Star Wars Light-Dark Force dichotomy. I wanted to learn about that Revan's motivations. The Revan novel and SWTOR took away Revan's free will, and thus made Vitiate the star of the show rather than Revan. The story is no longer about difficult choices and moral ambiguity, but rather magical masks and mind control. I appreciate the video for arguing that Revan in SWTOR is canonically consistent with Revan in KOTOR, even if I disagree.
I honestly think the main problem is that Revan’s choices are no longer the players, and it create a dissonance between what the fans would have him do and what he is doing. He quite literally stops being the person you think, your revan, in order for him to move the story.
That is rong. You see dark Revan so he is more evil. So his choices are logical. But in the end you see the Revan you know. And in KOTOR you also don't have a real choice because KOTOR 2 shows you the dark side Revan/ending is not canon.
While I don't think he was "Ruined", I still would've preferred what Obsidian was planning for him in a potential KOTOR 3 to what we actually got. Its not like his current story is bad (Well The Jedi Exile was badly handled) it just could've been executed better.
I agree. The execution was the problem, not the concept. (And the idea of the Jedi Exile being completed yeeted out of the picture was completely unnecessary..)
Hard agree, although I think it does ruin it a bit because it made him more Jedi minded than he ever was. I think him in this era doesn't work because it feels like contrived fan service and they felt a need to kill him in that era because...well he's fucking Revan to the player lol. Swtor was just an inferior byproduct that should've had no recurring cast members at that rate, just lore on fate. Revan should've died in his own timeline with more at stake he would've placed more on, there's nothing left for him in this future besides I guess decedents.
Canonizing Revan's choices and personality in any way was always going to be polarizing. Making Revan one specific way is going to leave everyone who made different choices in KOTOR feel left out. I think the split between light side/dark side Revan was actually a really good way to handle that and represent people who made different choices.
I mean.. as a Revan fan I didn't like to see him fail, or see what became of him in the Old Republic... but I think people overdramatize these things. The better story is the one we didn't get, and I've come to terms with it. The OR is still fun to play. Does it ruin Revan? Just as much as you convince yourself it did.
Eh, the people that really harped on about it so strongly were the people who were most immersed with the game, I think. Revan was a player insert, and because of that, people more prone to immersion are naturally going to react more strongly when the author takes the insert character and makes them do things that don't line up to the immersed person's point of view. It's the main piece of evidence that I go to when I try to explain to people that I think Bioware had no idea what they were doing when they launched TOR. You know, besides chasing that sweet, sweet World of Warcraft money.
I'm fully convinced in that case, I believe Revan had more potential than anyone from modern day Star Wars, I've said it many times and I'll say it again, the introduction of all that Vitiate bs is what ruined everything, the story we never got would have been far better than what we currently have, by a large margin. Oh well tho lol, good things either die great, or live long enough to be slandered and degraded.
You’re wrong for taking SwTor’s version of Revan…. The truth is, Revan disappeared in the outer Rim, and the Jedi Exile has just embarked on a journey after defeating Darth Traya, to find him. SWTOR never happened… The BioWare sponsored books never happened… KOTOR 3’s spirit lingers in perpetual limbo.
Everything laid out at the end of KOTOR 2 is what would logically transpire. The Exile and their companions go out to find Revan, who is most likely dealing with the real Sith Empire (who also don't look exactly like the Galactic Empire because that's retarded). Canderous would lead the reunited Mandalorians while Carth leads a Republic fleet, with Bastilla leading any remaining Jedi and maybe even the original game's companions against the Sith in an ultimate finale. Maybe the main character of this hypothetical KOTOR 3 would be similar to the Sith character in the Revan novel that teams up with him, giving us a Sith/ex-Sith POV. That would be a better continuation of KOTOR than whatever the fuck SWTOR and the Revan novel were.
I loved SWTOR growing up. I remember I was confused on what happened to Revan in SWTOR. But I did find it interesting that he was split during the Shadow of Revan. While I didn't agree with when he went to the Foundry, making the Extermination droids to wipe out anyone with Sith blood ancestry. I know he wanted to end to war and destroy the Sith, but he was gonna wipe out not just the guilty Sith, but also innocent people. It would have been the end of the Great Hyperspace War all over again. I did love the Revan novel, but I still hated that he didn't get the happy ending he deserved. I still liked Revan in SWTOR. I found it kind of cool that the dark Revan made us believe the 'fallen hero' trope. I also liked afterwords he finally accepted death and became one with the Force. To be honest, if I went through what he did, I would have gone crazy too.
@@100StarWars SWTOR: Revan: You have never fought anyone like me before. I am the Chosen One! I am destined to destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness! I have fought Mandalorians and armies of the Dark Side. I have succeeded in both instances. I am more than Jedi or Sith. I am Revan reborn! And before me, you are nothing! Revenge of the Sith: Obi-Wan: You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness! Anakin: I HATE YOU! Obi-Wan: You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you!
also don't forget the 300 years of imprisonment and probably torture as well that was done to him when he was being held hostage by Vitiate. that would've also drove anyone insane
"The Revan that does NOT give a shiet" A great quote for the ages! This was a great video, Sir! I will say that I don't think they "ruined" him with the MMO, but they could've definitely benefited with a larger time frame or a more stretched out story, since I got the feeling of it being very rushed and over with quickly.
They threw both under the bus, they shouldn't even be in this game and get proper conclusions, honestly I just say the Exile and Revan anyway. It's why I say it ruins Kotor in general, especially Revan. Just because he has more fanservice doesn't mean I like how it's done or how they portray it
Late but I think there are two parts that feel like they hurt Revan's character. First, as I saw other people say, in the 2 Kotor games Revan's choices are always portrayed as his choice. Having the Emperor control him at all hurts it. If it was like he fooled the Emperor than I'd be more ok with it. Second, Revan's whole personality is his intelligence and charisma. I get he's over confident but running off on his own to fight an unknown threat is just so stupid. He won a war through pure cleverness, not charging the enemy. Oh also I think split personality is a cheap plot point to just add to a character like this. It feels like an excuse, not something he has to grapple with.
Agreed but I also say it's contrived because of how little the new world or things around have an impact considering Bastila is dead by then, wouldn't you be broken mentally that way? Problem is, they also don't show that at all or good moments between his line and him which is just bad writing. He just ends up being a Raid boss and takes more form as a jedi than Revan. Imo Revan was never a a jedi. Sith by indoctrination but he embodied both practices of the trade for my case but he's always been a blank slate of the players choosing which is why it'll look fine to some people and not others.
The only thing I didn't like is how easily he was defeated, twice. Through all of the games and lore he's the most powerful Jedi of his time, possibly the greatest general ever, and able to completely use both sides of The Force. And he gets trounced without inflicting any casualties twice.
In yavin we fought the half of revan and it was still challenging imagine it was the full revan. Also you dont fight revan 1v1 you literally have Jedi Grandmaster and Sith Dark Councils leader with you
@@starwarsfan1161in the foundry we fought one whole revan (full power) at a point in the story where you are probably a sith apprentice, 1v1. What’s your point?
@@undonechrist1384 i remember that malgus said we must act quick because revan hasnt gained his full power yet but i might not be remembering correctly
Pretty good to finally hear someone mentioning the importance of Bastila and his child in Revan's "psychic troubles" after KOTOR 1 & the novel. I always feel so sad when people systematically put them aside just like they never existed in Revan's life (especially Bastila). Thank you for that!
I felt the same way after I played it for myself. I hadn't played Swtor until years later because I never had a computer to play it back in the day, and just remembered how much everyone hated what they did. I didn't think it was amazing but it definitely wasn't terrible by any means.
There's a lot of reasons for that. For starters, from the sound of it you got to play the game after Bioware introduced a bunch of different band aids to try and cover up their screw ups from launch TOR. That *cannot* be understated. Second, Star Wars hadn't been dragged through the mud by Disney yet when this happened, so people weren't NEARLY as cynical toward the IP when TOR launched, which is to say, people weren't used to being so strongly disappointed by a Star Wars product, let alone something with as good a track record as KOTOR. That aside, a great number of people really went deep into the player avatar immersion aspect that Revan represented during KOTOR, and that made peoples reactions a LOT more extreme when the character did something they didn't like, because it didn't fit to them with their idea of the character, because on some level or another, Revan is an extension of *them*, or at least their experience.
"Hate 'll keep a man alive, Spartacus" I think their need to shoehorn him into SWTOR with contrivance and convenience is where we object... It didn't ruin Revan's character, but rather his story (that he should have had in KOTOR 3)
SWTOR 100% ruined revan. how anybody can think it didn't is beyond me. revan made huge sacrifices and took huge risks just for it to be all for nothing thanks to SWTOR. he was added to the story just to sell subscriptions. people hear "omg revan is in the game?" it brings in players. you say he's an anti villian but the things he was doing WERE right. he wanted to destroy valkorian essentially, and you stop him from doing that, only for valkorian to wreak havoc in the next expansion. its because they couldn't write in a better bad guy so they used revan.
It's funny I just did the Shadow of Revan storyline (again) in TOR like two days ago. But this was a nice clear and concise report on everything he went through.
@@100StarWars oh yeah, you do excellent work. I think you, and the official LucasArts channels are the ones I go to for my SW info. Let me ask you, with the Remake coming out do you think LucasArts might take this opportunity to place KOTOR in the new canon? I only ask because I do feel like the core story plots would be the same. I haven’t read all of the new canon stuff but I don’t see how it could drastically change events so long ago. Plus back when the original KOTOR came out, that and the prequels jump started me into reading more into the EU/Legends books. I figured the Remake could do the same thing for their current efforts. Granted this also has the drawback of altering the game which could alienate old players of the game that wanted a carbon copy remake only with today’s level of graphics. Also delving into the canon waters also has the potential for LucasArts to take a more active role into the game’s development. Which also means corporate meddling. I feel like doing either or has pros and cons.
to borrow a line from the LOTR "Bilbo once told me,his part in this tale would end. That each of us must come and go in the telling" Some people's parts drop off quickly, others linger, but ultimately everyone departs the tale, having contributed some small piece to the wider narrative.
This is a brilliant video and should be an example on how to do a discussion about matters such as these. But as I am a contrarian little rat boy who feels obligated to give his opinion on everything I have quite a bit to say starting with the whole "twisting minds" thing that happens to revan. This is one of my least favourite retcons ever. The Revan who was "born" during the mandalorian wars and continued into the jedi civil war was a monster and the idea that revan chose this path is what makes him so interesting to me. To take any accountability for the monster that revan becomes out of his hands, even so little as the vague "twists revans mind" or the idea that there was ever an order to destroy the Republic given to revan, ultimately cheapens that sacrifice revan is meant to have made. To even hint at the idea revan was not fully behind the idea to go sith turns revan from the most unique sith lord to just another jedi fallen to the dark side. Another problem, though this one is admittedly petty, I have is the idea of hubris in revans actions. I just feel it is out of character for both the original sith lord who sacrificed his humanity for the galaxy and for the good jedi he becomes after the mind wipe. Neither feel like the type of characters who would make such an incredible mistake for the sake of their pride. Other than these two most of my other problems just stem from the fact swtor fails to live up to kotor 2s greatness and my own expectations so yeah. Great video mate keep up the good work.
Actually one more point that I don't like is how they split revan in two. It just feels like a cheap contrivance to show an internal struggle that the games story didn't care enough to explore in detail beyond the spectacle of "omg revans back you like revan don't you look at that he's doing cool things with the force and you're the only one big and strong enough to beat him good job you". That internal struggle could have been interesting but they didn't do a good job with it. All in all loved the video but disagree almost entirely and I'm gonna ignore that revan was ever in swtor at all.
I definitely feel the same way about Malak, especially considering his final exchange with Revan in the game (I am sorry I led you down this path, but you chose to continue down it.)
Ruined Revan? Not so much. Some of his companions were disrespected. We will never forget your sacrifice T3-M4. Ruined Metra Surik and her companions? YES!
@@100StarWars even though I enjoyed how Swtor redeemed their Revan mistake in a later expansion, it’s no excuse for our favorite exile to be treated in such discontent. Maybe on the “controversial” take, will the Kotor 2 remake be an Xbox timed exclusive?
It does ruin raven as a character, because raven is established as a character in the second game in the series, and swtor undermined everything about Kotor 2 it undermined kreia and the exile, especially those two characters, because everything that was built up about the exile in Kreia, is just completely and utterly destroyed. The exile is killed, and everything Kreia tried to do was meaningless, completely, and utterly under minded, and the idea that Reven became the dark Lord out of necessity to fight a greater evil. Nope he was just brainwashed.
F**ing THANK YOU. Finally someone else had the balls to say this! Yes it screwed over Kotor 2, but if anything, it elevated and pushed Revan to even greater heights. Think about it; in a Weakened state, it took 4 of the strongest the empire had to beat him(in that Flashpoint), then it took all the strongest barring Vitiate to take down a Prime Version of himself. Ontop of that, what he experienced against the Emporer, makes perfect sense to what he did in SWOTOR and in Kotor 1-2 respectively.
While I understand this, I still remain angry. I started playing Kotor when I was 10. I believed Revan to be the greatest ever, and continued this thought for many years. Personally, I believed it was Revan’s destiny to destroy the emperor, and when I found that wasn’t the case, I never saw SWTOR the same, and lost the very little amount of desire to play it (I hate mmo’s but would’ve stuck it out to see Revan). Call me unable to “let go” but he was everything to me growing up, and I don’t think I’ll ever forgive the creators of SWTOR for what they did to him. Good video tho
Just because it makes sense, it doesn't mean its good. It only makes "sense" because that's how they wrote it. The execution without a doubt was the main issue, but they literally wrote themselves into that corner. They could've done this better and that's a fact. Don't even bother trying to justify it.
It isn't even that they wrote themselves into a corner, that's the most depressing part about it. It's because they went and did the World of Warcraft model for boss design during launch TOR - they cannibalized existing parts of the IP (KOTOR) for content hoping that interacting with it would get more people to buy game boxes, and screw the story it's just there for advertising anyway.
Bold take indeed. My problem with SWTOR is how it just rewrites the stuff from KOTOR 2 and takes away from the nuance and mystery of the character. Also having him canonically use both light and dark abilities is silly AF and makes him feel like a wish fulfillment character. Alot of what Obsidian was setting up for the character is either simplified or thrown away. For example the "Revan met no Sith Empire" line just makes zero sense now, and also his whole plan surrounding the conversion of Jedi at the end of the Mandalorian Wars makes little sense too, because Revan only learns of the Sith during the battle of Malachor V, and not before. Its parts like these that are heavily changed and overwritten that annoys me. SWTOR didnt need to have Revan, it could have been entirely separate to KOTOR as it should be. The story of KOTOR should've been concluded with the 3rd installment of the franchise, not a cash grab mmo EDIT : As for the part with Revan instantly becoming the person he used to be before the memory wipe when he touched the mask, I think that is just kinda boring too. I much prefer the idea of him regaining his memories over time but him actually keeping the development he gets in the 1st game (redeeing himself and correcting his wrongs, then going to the Unknown Regions to fight the Sith the correct way instead of sacrificing thousands). Its obvious the book was trying to write Revan in a way that would enable you fighting him as a dungeon boss in the MMO, and that is silly
Revan was sometimes criticized as a Gary Stu, and I always thought that was wrong. He wasn't a wish-fulfillment, super powerful character. Sure, in KOTOR, he was a charismatic leader, but he wasn't all-powerful. Until SWTOR. Then he became so powerful that he survived for 300 years and there were Light and Dark incarnations of him. It kind of felt like a spoof of the character and a meta-commentary on the fact that players could choose to play Light or Dark side in KOTOR.
@@Dom-ns7pq he survived 300 years due to being sealed on stasis, much like Celeste Monre from the Kotor comic who was sealed for 4000 years, he doesn't live that long through his own power.
This channel suddenly started popping up in my feed a few days ago, and gosh bloody darnit of these videos aren't making me sorely miss playing SWTOR years ago.
I mean... Yeah, his character as a whole wasn't ruined, he is still my favourite character from the old republic era, but the way TOR handled him and especially the exile was obnoxious. After Kotor 2, her amazing story, the exile became an irrelevant force ghost after getting stabbed in the back, while she was supposed to be a wound in the force that passively dominates the will of others around her... No comment. Revan was rescued by the republic forces and immediately after died in a dungeon... They put him in the game just for the sake of him being there because he is a well known character. But they could've done so much more with him. Like, he could've joined the jedi on Tython and help both Jedi classes, especially the Knight when we destroyed Vitiate's body. He could've spoke with Bastila (well, kinda...) with the help of that machine we repaired during the Jedi Sage questline. In TOR, he became a madman who tried to commit mass genocide twice and only made things worse.
I watched this video to the end, alas I still think they ruined Revan in the MMO. It would have been better for Revan to die an old man with Bastilla and his legacy to live on in Sateele. The whole split soul, Revan struggling against the emperor etc is weak and disappointing at best.
Or died trying in that same time, there would've been more stake to it that way, he has nothing left to sacrifice this far into the future, everyone he loved is dead, I guess his decedents. I do think it is contrived fanservice that wasn't needed, keep Revanites as a fun idea sure, but Revan reaaaaallly shouldn't have been here just to kill him off, they could've done that before hand with this game and nobody would complain as long as they explain oh he died doing this or passed away over the years.
I really like how you explain the differences between the "light side" Revan and the "dark side" Revan. Also, excellent job weaving a simple thread of explaining why Revan in KOTOR is different from the Revan in the comics and SWTOR. I find it a very succinct, and easy to follow explanation, plus it gives an excellent reason of how you can enjoy doing a playthrough that includes both KOTOR and SWTOR. Hope to see the channel grow as KOTOR gets more popular again.
I point out this is that Master Chief is different from his books and comics from his video game counterpart, you know what we get with that logic? Halo 4 and 5
Yeah, but he does next to nothing with it, that's what I mean by he's just fanservice and they hardly do anything with that at all...I would've believed this whole thing if they made him tortured but with the whole I gotta destroy the Sith extreme, he just lacks anything, and apathy is DEATH. I wouldn't have minded if the apathy took hold but like Shan's pushed something in him to show more emotion that he's broken but nothing besides the one action to make him your next raid boss. Imo it's just really bad fanservice and separate him from what he held dear in the original or .what he conquered.
I think what made Revan grating in TOR was his voice acting. He wouldn't stop yelling and only had one mode where he was constantly making declarations.
Well, I understood the concept, but I fundamentally disagreed with it. Call me a powerscaler (which concept in Star Wars, you could say, isn't really present), but I didn't think there was anyone with a stronger will than Revan in his time. And contrary to what the overall theme of Star Wars, as well as KotOR II and Kreia, tell us, for me Neutrality isn't synonymous with apathy. Being Neutral in the Force meant Revan could do anything that is possible to do with the Force, be it in the Light, Dark or Neutral. Heal himself and others, Drain the lifefroce from surrounding life, use Force Wave, Crush and twist his opponents with the Force, chuck Lightnings at them and even create storms! And all things considered Revan WAS a Neutral spot in the Force, tasted both the Light and Dark Sides, returned from darkness which was pretty much an unprecedented feat. He was capable of doing about anything. That's why I didn't feel like that Vitate dude could budge him, even with all the Sith alchemy and stuffs... but that's in my personal opinion.
Plausibility (of Revan's fate post KoToR I/II as written by new authors) has nothing to do with it. Is it plausible that Cpl. Hicks died in cryo? Sure it is, doesn't stop Alien 3 being hated by fans of that franchise. Is it plausible that Joel gets beaten to death with a golf club? Sure, but that LoU 2 story line is still one of the most despised ones in a game over the last 10 years. There are dozens of plausible fates for Revan. For example, could the "greatest strategist of the age" have come up with a plan that succeeded and killed the emperor but both he and the exile had to give their lives in the process? Of course it is. TOR then opens under a backdrop of a Sith Empire only recently coming out of a 300 year civil war with lords and factions (including Revan cultists) still jockeying for power. TOR then is a whole different story but very much still very plausible. You or I or any 12 grader could come up with half-a dozen alternate plausible routes in a couple of days I'd wager. It's the fact that of all the possible scenarios, the one that we get is where each plan by the "master strategist" is more ill-conceived and amateurish than the next resulting in failure after failure and a 300 year cycle of capture and torture is what is ruinous to the legacy/reputation of a person of whom Canderous Ordo once said, "You're the greatest Warrior of the Age, I'd follow you anywhere."
Well done mate, you have entirely changed my mind and everything here makes total sense. I now have more faith in you and your channel: Influence Gained!
I hate SWtOR’s “Revan.” Not only do I hate the idea of taking a customizeable character and erasing them in favor of one static default but the character himself is incredibly stupid, nonsensical, and feels shoehorned in for fanboys to squeal over rather than because it makes sense.
See I hate that stupid book. It oversimplifies everything and I really do disagree with your assessment that he wasn't mind controlled to fall to the dark side, granted I haven't re read the book in some time so I could be misremembering but that was 100% what I took away from it. Also I don't like your take that there's a Revan that was created by the council and by touching the mask he became 'his true self'. Kriea even says that the Revan that went on to defeat Malak was just Revan's true self once again risen to the surface because he couldn't remember the sacrifice he made to try and save the republic. So while I respect this analysis I still firmly believe SWTOR did ruin Revan.
To be fair though, that's just Kreia's belief. The actuality of events are just that. They stripped his mind and implanted a new persona. The Revan everyone knows before KOTOR is dead and buried and only resurfaces after the Novel during SWTOR.
@@100StarWars you're right, it is kriea's belief and she could be wrong. I guess I just personally find that interpretation to be more interesting than the alternative that was given to us, but ultimately that just comes down to personal taste. I'll admit I'm very much biased against SWTOR and that book but I respect your ability to be more objective about it than I can. So when I say they ruined Revan I guess what I really mean is they took it in a direction that I didn't like. But hey I'm also wrong about lots of things, I'm just a cranky curmudgeon who played the sith Lords way more than was necessary! Also I really like your channel I just found it and started binging because at this point I would say I'm more of KOTOR than actual Star wars.
This is fairly typical defensive analysis and it suffers from the same issues most defensive analysis does. Stories are more than their plot summary dude. If a character feels as though they've been stripped of their agency by the writing then they may as well have been. And I don't see what purpose these elements serve really, but one thing that's for certain is they give that feeling
I did feel like Revan was a bit shoehorned into SWTOR, but I didn't care. I love Revan, and I love him in TOR, no matter how awkwardly he's integrated into the story
Your explanation is plausible and certainly a good way of making sense. I think however it's beside the point. Revan had the potential to be a character that had both the redemption aspect of Anikin and the hero aspect of Luke Skywalker. While what you said about Kotor II can make sense, the interpretation of what Kreia says can be fairly wide which I think is what that game tried to achieve. Giving Revan the chance to be instrumental in defeating the evil emperor rather than make him a toy that goes back and forth is what I would have loved to see and why I was and still am disappointed in swtor.
I just think of how revan in the original was ambiguous so people could play him/her in so many different ways with different outcomes. I never felt like anyone who played a different path than mine had less or more value. So that’s what I think about swtors take…it doesn’t ruin it for me. It’s not the story I had in my mind for my revan..and that’s fine. I’m just about having fun. I don’t care what is canon or isn’t. My Luke skywalker isn’t the Disney version. Doesn’t mean the Disney version doesn’t have value to someone and that’s good for them …I just choose legacy Luke as my preference.
Never really thought SWTOR ruined Revan. But hey the Star Wars community is something else sometimes. I LOVE Revan's story. He's my favorite Star Wars character.
I remember a time when I had theorized a long while that he was still fighting his last fight. One last battle. And Scourge was helping him. I was so happy to see them together once more. Even more so with imo his successor, he was able to beat the monster once and for all. Even though he was evil when he made his own faction, he wasn’t wrong to do so. The HoT/Commander did the same thing but better. I’d like to think even after death when he became whole, even though he was focused on beating the emperor, he also wanted to create something that could mediate both sides. An Alliance
so like, i don't disagree with what you are saying regarding swtor's revan, my main problem is that this isn't revan of kotor 3 which is what all of us are looking for, you know, the revan that isn't about failures... but about prophecy and about the sith empire invasion not the revan that is raughly 30 years too late and can't do shit to fix nothing. after listening to kreia in the jedi enclave rebuilt scene i think the trilogy was sapouse to be about what is the prophecy of the one, which was revan = anakin, and the exile = luke, one cannot succeed without the other, and when their goals align OP shit gonna happen. (same as in malachor 5, once the exile and revan were aligned a cataclysm never to be forgotten occured). the reason i think this is what kotor trilogy was trying to do is based on multiple stuff but ill give the short version of my opinion. the prequels were coming out along side this trilogy, a trilogy of movies about anakin and his decent to the dark side, while we all had the knowledge of how his story ends. in kotor we get to see the galaxy 4000 years before the movies and get a story kinda similar to anakin of a man who became dark sided OP leader who changes the face of the galaxy but unlike vader gets an other chance at living a new life, something vader would dream of. we get to see revan new chance at living and saving the galaxy while we all know that no matter what will happen, the empire will get reduced into 2 sith, a master and apprentice, a rule we only learn about in the prequel trilogy, as George Lucas likes to say "it rhymes" kotor was about rhyming with the prequels. so the rhyme is that in 1 trilogy we see how the jedi are getting slaughtered and in the other trilogy we see the same happens to the sith. in 1 trilogy we see a man descent to the dark side, while in the other we see him salvaged from the dark side and saving the galaxy. 1 trilogy is about how the fact that even if vader will return to the light, it wont save his broken body and his life, while the other got his identity stolen and thanks to that he got a second chance at living, that's why revan's mask is so monumental, him getting his identity back after he got his new chance at life should be the moment he is at his strongest form, a complete balanced force user, one who ruined the galaxy, destroyed planets and civilizations, held the galaxy by it's throat and had the star forge as a nuclear weapon, and 1 who saved the galaxy from the same threat, (himself and his legacy as darth revan with darth malak and the star forge). conclusion: kotor is about the prophecy of the one who brings balance to the force and what it required. it required a man to be engulfed by the pain and hate of the galaxy out of sheer care to others, then losing his mind and being reborn a new to find out an other way of trying to protect others (again, by his sheer care to others). then mixing both personalities to discover both succeed and failed at specific aspects. so finding the correct method to save the galaxy mixing bad and good to be able to defeat the emperor.
@@100StarWars hey man, thank you as well, after typing that comment i found myself writing an other comment for 2 hours, it turned out to be about 2 chapters of writing about how metra and obsidians revan met after kotor 2 and what revan would say once he got his memories. it turned out amazing but too long to post as a comment, i havn't finished it but for the most parts, i found answers to the questions about revan once i been in "my" revan's mind. if you want, i can send you the entire thing on email, i think it's pretty great even if my english isn't that good (second language)
i really feel like i found actual answers, answers that would be correct, it feels like it has to be the truth of what was the plan thanks to timeline and normal cause and effect of events
I loved Revan, but then I encountered his..."fanbase"... Ever since then my feelings are mixed on him. Many people treat Raven as the cheat character which can max out every skill, and all attributes, in many people mind HE HAS NO FLAW! I say it out loud, a lot of people love "Revan" their interpreted idealised version of him who is borderline Gary Sue. Which ironic considering how much those same people hate Rey (With good reason, but it makes them hypocrites) However what I love how almost every one of these people misunderstand what Kreia meant when she talked about Revan. She said, that there was the *possibility* that Revan never truly fell. This was one of the many lessons, where she once again, taught you to investigate happenings, from a different angle. She did not explicitly stated it as a fact. And also, I love how people actually take everything Kreia says as face-value and trust her 100%. Like she is not manipulative or something.
Completely agree, alot of the people who treat Star wars like Dragon Ball Z seem to love Revan, along with some grey Jedi fanfic types who think you can use both aspects of the force without severe consequences. When you ask someone who their favorite Star Wars character is and they answer basically "Myself", it should set off some red flags lol.
That was a great explanation and I couldn't have said it any better, my friend. This was a well thought out video and should open up some minds as well as eyes to the whole story of Revan and not just what they remember or think they remember from the KOTOR games. Well done, my friend.
I sometimes think Revan was the 'Chosen One' as he definitely used both light and dark sides of the force. The Jedi of the time couldn't see it due to their fear of the dark side. Vitiate couldn't destroy him although he did perhaps split his light and dark side. I thought SWTOR did a good job with him by letting him be part of the destruction of Tenebrae, his ultimate goal.
I always was saddened that Revan wasn't the one to beat Vitiate, but I understand. (Especially from a game development standpoint.) It was just not right to see someone as naturally gifted with power as Revan lose to someone who had to use a ritual to steal the power. Natural Valkorion vs Natural Revan and Revan wins. Easy. It's just a other tragedy of Star Wars. I wish the Sith and Jedi would have left him alone, but they couldn't. Both feared his power. I firmly believe that Revan never fell to the Darkseid. He only embraced the force in its entirety. Good video, mate. Keep it up.
I disagree with you *heavily* here .(Gigantic wall of text ahead) 1. The very first mistake you make is to use TOR and The Revan novel as references to prove your point but the problem is that fans who hate TOR do not accept these references , nullifying most of your points . In fact you explored these pieces of content so much that you have forgotten who Revan was painted and intended as in both KOTOR1 and 2. 2. Revan did not commit genecide to destroy genecide , he did so to break the will of the Jedi who followed him to the dark side and then used Malachor's academy to train the assassin's we see in KOTOR2 . The point of KOTOR1 was whether or not memories define character , by the end of the game you can become the Revan that was before or the one he should've been . Malak's dialogue also hint that despite the councils work , by the end of the game Revan's mind and personality is finally his own , only changed from his experience in the game . 3. To ruin Kotor2's "True Sith" is to ruin Revan , Kreia and The Exile . Since these characters had their arcs tied to these antagonists and these beings were told to us as cosmic beings who are much more powerful than Kotor2's and their empire was built on belief and the force rather than droids or "legions" , which is the exact opposite of KotorII's . With the threat deminished , these characters were diminished as well . 4. TOR undermines the arcs of Revan and The Exile . Through Revan's actions in KOTOR he learnt his mistakes and understood what he should've been . By making him do the exact same mistakes as before is bring him back to step one and making him "insane" is not exactly appropriate to the vision that was built of him in KOTOR2 or as the face of the franchise . The Exile was also treated horribly , she should've reflected the teachings of Kreia in a better light and be a conduit for "The Battle of Belief" to the player . Instead she just sacrifices herself so TOR can have a few more expansions that as I established before , do not bring a satisfying ending . 6. The idea of a split soul is not unique at all , it is heavily used in fantasy stories in order to justify undermining growth or deaths . They did it twice with Tenebrae and once with Revan and it isn't done to make the character more interesting , it is done to justify their usage in yet another DLC. 7. Onslaught doesn't bring a good end either , it just brings back our beloved protagonists for novelty and nostalgia . So no , TOR did ruin Revan for the reasons I listed above .
Honestly when I found out that swtor was MMO I just never wanted to get involved with it . I get it and it's bioware but nah fam . Sigh smh I was so disappointed by that . I heard the stories is better than most MMO games but idk if their on par with rpg games and that's where I wanted revan and the Kotor universe to have stayed personally. I know it wasn't Kotor 3 but if it's anything surrounding revan and the exile or the ramifications of their actions or inactions I don't wanna play no MMO . It would be nice if bioware made the game for console though like some MMO's over the past years have done . I would be inclined to try it out . But generally I don't rock with MMO games
It completes Revan story and gives a little bit more perspective to that era. You can play story content totally solo. Some class stories are really really good. And then after class stories goes the build up for Revan resolution. Also, dialogues are epic: playing for the sith and making all the light choices is super fun and feels totally different to playing the same story but doing typical sith stuff. And as usual from older Bioware games: amazing voice acting and music. I played it on release and came back almost 10 years later to finish the stories and all of the add-ons - and it feels good. Though leveling and the solo gameplay feel like easy mode now.
@@graved1gger I'm gonna be that guy that gives the opposite opinion here. The thing about TOR is that the overarching story of the early parts of the game were pretty bad. Some of the class specific storylines were good, but the parts that everyone got to play were pretty lousy until you finished Shadow of Revan and got to Ziost. The plot before Ziost is mediocre at the best of times, complete trash at the worst of times, and it gets carried hard by the audio and visual aspects, such as the music and voice acting. TOR makes a pretty hard turn out of having a shit story to having a relatively good story when you hit Knights of the Fallen Empire, though. Valkorian carries the plot (more specifically, Valkorian's voice actor Darin de Paul) kind of hard at times, but it's definitely a step up from anything TOR had shown up to that point. That being said, you're right about it basically being easy mode now. The story basically plays itself.
The funny thing is I’m currently playing through shadow of Revan on swtor as I comment this and tbh I feel as tho swtor adds more to the character who I have loved in Star Wars for so long , I also see how it connects what happened in the kotor games and swtor (the two flashpoints and the shadow of Revan expansion) together into an over arching story
In my opinion, the 300 years leap to SWTOR was wrong and keeping Revan for those 300 years in order to be included in SWTOR was pure marketing move to attract more players. It harms the character and the storyline because it puts too much story on one character. The whole SWTOR seems to me like a mistake. The original story of a jedi, who lead the Republic in the Mandalorian wars, then the sith in Jedi Civil war until his redemption and final defeat of Malak and saving the Republic was a lot to begin with. If compared to other star wars stories and accomplishments of other heros, this alone would be enough. The subsequent search for the real SIth Empire still made sense and there, with Revan novel, should have ended the story of Revan. I can imagine different and more interesting endings of the Revan novel, where Revan and Meetra are defeated by the Emperor, but they manage to seriously wound him. Revan would be captured but first he would order Meetra to escape and warn the Republic. The Emperor would imprison Revan and try to extract information from his mind and just as in the novel Revan could also influence mind of the Emperor and increase his sense of vulnerability and paranoia. The paranoid Emperor driven mad by Revan would then enact another ritual like that on Nathema but on much larger scale, which would kill him, damaged the Sith Empire and prevent immediate attack on the Republic. Thus would Revan in his defeat also as his final act defeated the Emperor and saved the Republic once more but at a cost of millions of relatively innocent lives. Meetra would escape, warn the Republic as ordered, and then returned for Revan but would not be able to free him before Emperor enacted the ritual, so she would at least report on those events back to Republic. The plot for KoTOR 3 could then focus on rebuilding the Republic (Light Side) or the true Sith Empire (Dark Side) and then on the war between the two with both sides ready for one another. Revan's and Meetra's followers could play important role as generals in that war and finish what Revan started. If necessary, Revan could appear as force ghost with minor role, but nothing more.
I always thought that SWTOR handled the Revan story and bringing it to a conclusion amazingly well. And, It's not quite the last we see of him. We do see him one more time when the Emperor Tenebrae, Vitiate/Valkorian is finally destroyed. Such a wonderfully complex morality tale.. and the telling there of. Pretty Sure George Lucas approved and approved of it. Almost makes me wish the Bioware writing team would have been given the job of writing the script for the prequal movies!
I still believe SWtOR ruined Revan in that they changed Revan's story, reasons, and motivations to inferior states. His story was made less cool and interesting with the information we were provided in the MMO.
This is really well put together. To be honest when I put Revans story in full perspective I always feel that his destiny was never to stop Vitiate. It was to prepare the galaxy to fight the True Sith Empire. Think of it this way. Revan set into motion the events of Kotor 2, the events for the rebirth of the Jedi Order, uncorrupted and improved. He also held off Vitiate for 300 years so that the Republic and Jedi could rebuild their forces. Though that's just my interpritation.
Initial reaction: He is NOT my Revan, so I think of him as Drew Karpyshyn's/BioWare's Revan for their Infinities storyline currently known as The Old Republic. Heck, other fans will agree, considering their Revan might not have romanced Bastila, is a woman, is Dark Sided all the way, etc. Later reaction: ... Really, really good take on the character. Seriously, gotta love the archetype (is that the right definition?) of a desperate enough man who goes to great lengths to serve, protect, and save the very things he loved no matter the cost and no matter the amount of hubris received... might want to try writing about that character archetype myself one day too. Still not my... OUR Revan though, but then again, TOR is an alternate reality in an unknown Multiverse of destiny, uniqueness, strength, and so on.
I played kotor 1 and 2 at launch. I experienced the plot twist and followed the exile. The games were among some of the best experiences I have had in vidoe games. I was heartbroken when 3 never happened. Now fas forward to the swtor. I played it at launch. I stopped after finishing the initial story mode. Got the family name and whole 9 yards. Multiplalayer meant nothing to me. I heard about the expansion and turned it down. My thoughts was no kotor 3 but they give you this expansion. I felt it was a slap to the face of both games. The exile was marginalized, a glorified footnote. I completely understand your point that the Revan we got was the character before the change. It just felt like the legacy of the kotor games meant nothing.
“Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone.”
Was there an exerpt or any evidence that said that the Emperor's influence faded during the Jedi Civil War? I don't remember that in the Revan novel or in TOR, but I could be wrong. Please, I'd like to be shown the quote or excerpt.
No, SWtOR MMO did not ruin Revan, the last book in the Revan series tailored toward the upcoming (at the time) SWtOR series did however. Drew unfortunately wasted an amazing character and story with the last book and at the time of its release there was a large player/fan base that voted to redact that book as it did little to no justice to the characters.
I agree with your opinion. SWTOR didn’t ruin Revan, it added more to his character to the point where he became a tortured soul that was split in two thanks to The Sith Emperor/Darth Vitiate. His light side became one with the force, while his inner demons, his dark side, clung to life, refusing to die. The poor man was insane, and it was all The Emperor’s fault. Hell, this made me love Revan even more because his story is not only similar to Anakin/Vader’s (insert “it’s like poetry, it rhymes” quote here), it’s also, in a story sense, a great way to finally give Revan the peace he deserved.
The root problem is structural gameplay. In KotoR he is the main character; the hero of his own story, and in fact TSL while not playable is entirely about Revan. Its revelations, in fact the entire point of the game was to assemble Revan’s team to come join him. TSL effectively elevates Revan to a “god” - not power, but TSL so more fully fleshed out Revan’s mystique as strategist than KotoR ever did. TOR unfortunately falls short in continuing. It (base game) suffers from using Revan as a mid-level NPC in non-required side content. And in doing so, essentially made him a genocidal psychopath. Additionally, the eponymous TOR: Revan novel -what should have been KotoR 3 - ends up with his plans in tatters, Exile killed, and him locked away for 300 years. Further, the novel suffered from constraint of being impractical to write in _all_ of the companions, so it served as a sheety send-off to him in his own novel. Sorry, TOR did Revan dirty.
@@100StarWars ohhhh. Yeah this "Sith Emperor" you meet in the Jedi Knight story mode is really flat and... honestly he's just kinda there. I meant the Valkorian stuff. I just conflate like all of it, and I think of him as Vitiate instead of Valkorian or Tenebrae
I know this one is going to super controversial, so please don't go too harsh on me! But let me know below what you think! Come follow me on twitter for KOTOR Sithposting! twitter.com/100PerStarWars
SWTOR did ruin the Exile completely, it just made Revan extremely bland, a dumbed down version of the character concept.
And I'm definitely massively biased because TSL's far more important to me than SWKOTOR.
I really hope after we get a remake of K1, we get then K2, then a real K3.
I completely agree, it utterly ruins KOTOR 2 - but not Revan. If you give the video a chance, you'll see why :)
@@BlueMarsalis As a Kotor 2 fan myself, as good as it was I never really felt it mattered, and you wanna know why? Besides Satele’s Jedi Order and much much later Luke’s Jedi Order, the Jedi NEVER stopped being so fucking stupid. Had The Exile stuck around it would have changed events significantly, especially the Jedi’s view on the Force and on Good/Evil. So Meetra going off and dying doesn’t matter in the long run because the Jedi Order never got any better.
@@BlueMarsalis Not really. Kotor 2 stated why Revan left people behind when he went after Vitiate so that stays true.
@@BlueMarsalis Also I find people really overhype The Exile.
Malak in KotOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing.
Revan in SWTOR: And in the end, as the Darkness takes me, I am nothing. Now I know how you felt, my friend.
Echoes of Oblivion:
Vitiate: No... No!
Valkorion: The Force is mine! I command it!
Tenebrae: I... am... endless!
Revan: No. And in the end, as the Darkness takes you, you are nothing!
And so one of Star Wars' main themes works its magic again...
@@michaelandreipalon359 "That's like poetry, so that they rhyme." -George Lucas.
@@mikeor- Exactly.
That was actually the Outlander's line.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 In my book, it's Revan who says that, even though the Commander says it in the game.
I feel like SWTOR should’ve waited to introduce Revan when the time was right. There should’ve been buildup and subtlety to his return and but ultimately reintroduced him too soon.
Possibly, yeah. The biggest plot twist would've been he was the Emperor all along haha
@@100StarWars I was thinking something more along the lines of he was plotting in the shadows his revenge after a battle between the Republic and the Sith empire caused his prison to be damaged, leading to his escape.
@@100StarWars oh no.... YOU’RE A CRAZY REVANITE!!!!!!!!
Yeah... Revan should have been the real Emperor all along, now that you say it.
@Scriptilicous Simple. The battle severed his connection to the emperor in the process.
Don’t forget in Onslaught, (Echoes of Oblivion) Revan finally completes his quest of killing Tenebrae with the help of everyone else that was killed through Tenebrae’s manipulation...
Indeed
That was dope af
Everyone he has wronged and killed as Tenebrae, Vitiate, or Valkorion, all returned from the afterlife momentarlally to do one thing, to destroy him forever
That was the make-up moment for me. Getting to fight side by side with the legend is something I hope gets to happen again... But likely won't.
Which probably only happened because they realized that they had to pay that off.
I think one of the biggest things about revan in Swtor is that he realizes that throughout all of these things, he’s tried to shoulder the burden alone. Revan was very much in a way, the embodiment of the Jedi’s self sacrificing ideology after his return to the light. That, and the constant betrayal he suffered from made him take things onto his own shoulders and believing that only he could do it. So in his last moments before he dies, he entrusts the player to be the one to finish what he and so many other had started years ago. The man who didn’t want to trust others entrusted his final mission to another. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things that’s been done with revan. He realizes that he didn’t have to shoulder everything by himself, and puts faith in others to continue the fight.
well said
A great point to make!
I glad that Revan can rest now in the force with Bastila because I know one small truth that there was not a mistake.
@Stride Yeah and they all died. Therefore making him believe he had to be the one to do it himself.
I disagree, Revan has always been a Pendulum imo. He swayed both directions often but that's because this is a blank slate for you to fill in, imo the whole darkness and lightside was always part of Revan, I wouldn't say self sacrificing but he was definitely the vanguard to protecting those he cared about, which isn't Jedi minded because he forms attachment as we've seen with Bastila. I think the spirits being what they were was completely stupid and not done well, and hell in the end we just have Revan as Jedi which imo shouldn't happen when you merge light and dark like that.
I didn't think they ruined Revan my interpretation is somewhat similar to yours but they did ruin the exile aka Meetra Surik
You can't ruin Meetra if you just have her be barely a backround character ;)
You'd be surprised lmao
You make some really great points, and I totally see where you are coming from, and I also think that you show that thematically what TOR did with Revan does work with his previously established character; but I still hold that TOR (and the Revan novel) does seriously injure the character in a major aspect.
Namely, as Kriea said "Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example, it was him. And there is something that the Council will never understand...that perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference more than anyone knew."
Now this is just Kriea's point of view, so she could be wrong, but Revan never actually falling to the Dark Side is the subtle motif that traces throughout KOTOR 2, and connects to aspects of the original KOTOR where Carth and other characters admit that Revan was not a butcher, he had a reason for doing everything. But the Revan novel and TOR removed some of the most important aspects of Revan's character, his mind, his will, and the mystery surrounding the character. The developers had to handwave all these things away so they could shoehorn Revan into TOR, because, yeah, why wouldn't you have your most popular character in your MMO.
No, Revan's character was not ruined by TOR, but they stripped the character of much of what made him intriguing to instead focus the only aspects of him that could work for TOR. He had to be dominated by Emperor Vitiate, forcibly turned to the Dark Side (twice) because it was the best way for TOR to work narratively, the previous narrative established by KOTOR 1&2 be damned.
But that's just my feeling. You do great work, really appreciate it. May the Force be with you!
Thanks for sharing your view on the matter :)
It's even worse than that, really. They just wanted to use him to sell subscriptions by making him into a dungeon boss. You take all that narrative, all that nuance, and have him show up in a collective scene that has maybe ten minutes of dialogue between both sides, and kill him off in a single boss fight. Yeah, sure, there was the tie in novel, but it always just screamed at me that it was just product placement.
Yeah, launch TOR was bad. Really bad.
honestly it would been cooler if vitiaite didnt make himfall magically but his mere existance and pressence scared revan so much to be willign to go as far as he went but the stoyrwehave is the story we have and I quite liek swtor
I came here to say the same thing. Revan was a fun player avatar in KOTOR 1, but not really a character. KOTOR 2 made Revan interesting. Kreia's musings on Revan added a depth to the traditional Star Wars Light-Dark Force dichotomy. I wanted to learn about that Revan's motivations.
The Revan novel and SWTOR took away Revan's free will, and thus made Vitiate the star of the show rather than Revan. The story is no longer about difficult choices and moral ambiguity, but rather magical masks and mind control.
I appreciate the video for arguing that Revan in SWTOR is canonically consistent with Revan in KOTOR, even if I disagree.
I completely agree Aaron. KOTOR 2 had a good characterization for Revan. The book and SWTOR threw all of that away.
I honestly think the main problem is that Revan’s choices are no longer the players, and it create a dissonance between what the fans would have him do and what he is doing. He quite literally stops being the person you think, your revan, in order for him to move the story.
Plausible theory yeah
That is rong. You see dark Revan so he is more evil. So his choices are logical. But in the end you see the Revan you know. And in KOTOR you also don't have a real choice because KOTOR 2 shows you the dark side Revan/ending is not canon.
Its almost as if they made Revan a plot device!
100% Star Wars: Swtor didn't ruin Revan.
Fans: You have forgotten your position, 100% Star Wars, by believing this claim. You have betrayed us
To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it.
@@100StarWars Wise words but I was creating a skit since I have a feeling that this is not going to end well. ;D I'm not brave enough for society. ;D
@@RyanTheDark You and me both.
@@100StarWars A very bold claim with this video. I commend you on looking at this topic with an open mind.
;)
While I don't think he was "Ruined", I still would've preferred what Obsidian was planning for him in a potential KOTOR 3 to what we actually got. Its not like his current story is bad (Well The Jedi Exile was badly handled) it just could've been executed better.
I agree. The execution was the problem, not the concept. (And the idea of the Jedi Exile being completed yeeted out of the picture was completely unnecessary..)
Hard agree, although I think it does ruin it a bit because it made him more Jedi minded than he ever was. I think him in this era doesn't work because it feels like contrived fan service and they felt a need to kill him in that era because...well he's fucking Revan to the player lol. Swtor was just an inferior byproduct that should've had no recurring cast members at that rate, just lore on fate. Revan should've died in his own timeline with more at stake he would've placed more on, there's nothing left for him in this future besides I guess decedents.
Canonizing Revan's choices and personality in any way was always going to be polarizing. Making Revan one specific way is going to leave everyone who made different choices in KOTOR feel left out. I think the split between light side/dark side Revan was actually a really good way to handle that and represent people who made different choices.
I mean.. as a Revan fan I didn't like to see him fail, or see what became of him in the Old Republic... but I think people overdramatize these things. The better story is the one we didn't get, and I've come to terms with it. The OR is still fun to play. Does it ruin Revan? Just as much as you convince yourself it did.
*'Does it ruin Revan? Just as much as you convince yourself it did.'* This is great
Eh, the people that really harped on about it so strongly were the people who were most immersed with the game, I think. Revan was a player insert, and because of that, people more prone to immersion are naturally going to react more strongly when the author takes the insert character and makes them do things that don't line up to the immersed person's point of view. It's the main piece of evidence that I go to when I try to explain to people that I think Bioware had no idea what they were doing when they launched TOR. You know, besides chasing that sweet, sweet World of Warcraft money.
@@100StarWars agreed
I'm fully convinced in that case, I believe Revan had more potential than anyone from modern day Star Wars, I've said it many times and I'll say it again, the introduction of all that Vitiate bs is what ruined everything, the story we never got would have been far better than what we currently have, by a large margin. Oh well tho lol, good things either die great, or live long enough to be slandered and degraded.
@@100StarWars And can be applied to almost everything that "ruins" something . This statement is nothing but dealing with absolutes .
You’re wrong for taking SwTor’s version of Revan….
The truth is, Revan disappeared in the outer Rim, and the Jedi Exile has just embarked on a journey after defeating Darth Traya, to find him.
SWTOR never happened…
The BioWare sponsored books never happened…
KOTOR 3’s spirit lingers in perpetual limbo.
Everything laid out at the end of KOTOR 2 is what would logically transpire. The Exile and their companions go out to find Revan, who is most likely dealing with the real Sith Empire (who also don't look exactly like the Galactic Empire because that's retarded). Canderous would lead the reunited Mandalorians while Carth leads a Republic fleet, with Bastilla leading any remaining Jedi and maybe even the original game's companions against the Sith in an ultimate finale. Maybe the main character of this hypothetical KOTOR 3 would be similar to the Sith character in the Revan novel that teams up with him, giving us a Sith/ex-Sith POV. That would be a better continuation of KOTOR than whatever the fuck SWTOR and the Revan novel were.
I loved SWTOR growing up. I remember I was confused on what happened to Revan in SWTOR. But I did find it interesting that he was split during the Shadow of Revan. While I didn't agree with when he went to the Foundry, making the Extermination droids to wipe out anyone with Sith blood ancestry. I know he wanted to end to war and destroy the Sith, but he was gonna wipe out not just the guilty Sith, but also innocent people. It would have been the end of the Great Hyperspace War all over again. I did love the Revan novel, but I still hated that he didn't get the happy ending he deserved. I still liked Revan in SWTOR. I found it kind of cool that the dark Revan made us believe the 'fallen hero' trope. I also liked afterwords he finally accepted death and became one with the Force. To be honest, if I went through what he did, I would have gone crazy too.
I think we all would've lost it at that point hahah
@@100StarWars SWTOR:
Revan: You have never fought anyone like me before. I am the Chosen One! I am destined to destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness! I have fought Mandalorians and armies of the Dark Side. I have succeeded in both instances. I am more than Jedi or Sith. I am Revan reborn! And before me, you are nothing!
Revenge of the Sith:
Obi-Wan: You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness!
Anakin: I HATE YOU!
Obi-Wan: You were my brother, Anakin! I loved you!
"I loved SWTOR growing up."
- I'll take internet Comments That Make You Feel Ancient for 300, Alex. :D
also don't forget the 300 years of imprisonment and probably torture as well that was done to him when he was being held hostage by Vitiate. that would've also drove anyone insane
@@rowankitchener278 He was tortured by the Dread Masters as well, and they are masters of Insanity and Plague as far as we know.
"The Revan that does NOT give a shiet"
A great quote for the ages!
This was a great video, Sir!
I will say that I don't think they "ruined" him with the MMO, but they could've definitely benefited with a larger time frame or a more stretched out story, since I got the feeling of it being very rushed and over with quickly.
I'm just sore on how they treated Meetra Surik (and Kreia to some extent). Throwing them under the bus...
I am too, don't worry.
@@100StarWars hey!!! But at least they didn’t ruin Revan, right?
*sticks blaster to “x item” you care about*
RIGHT?
Lol
@@100StarWars same here
They threw both under the bus, they shouldn't even be in this game and get proper conclusions, honestly I just say the Exile and Revan anyway. It's why I say it ruins Kotor in general, especially Revan. Just because he has more fanservice doesn't mean I like how it's done or how they portray it
I think that overall, it only helped to enhance his character even more and add more to what was already the best force user in all of Star Wars.
To some degree!
If you let it be canon or Lucas Arts canon. I refuse TOR to exist.
I liked that in the end Revan helped defeat the sith emperor. But the ruined kotor 2 And the jedi exile
Late but I think there are two parts that feel like they hurt Revan's character.
First, as I saw other people say, in the 2 Kotor games Revan's choices are always portrayed as his choice. Having the Emperor control him at all hurts it. If it was like he fooled the Emperor than I'd be more ok with it.
Second, Revan's whole personality is his intelligence and charisma. I get he's over confident but running off on his own to fight an unknown threat is just so stupid. He won a war through pure cleverness, not charging the enemy.
Oh also I think split personality is a cheap plot point to just add to a character like this. It feels like an excuse, not something he has to grapple with.
Agreed but I also say it's contrived because of how little the new world or things around have an impact considering Bastila is dead by then, wouldn't you be broken mentally that way? Problem is, they also don't show that at all or good moments between his line and him which is just bad writing. He just ends up being a Raid boss and takes more form as a jedi than Revan. Imo Revan was never a a jedi. Sith by indoctrination but he embodied both practices of the trade for my case but he's always been a blank slate of the players choosing which is why it'll look fine to some people and not others.
The only thing I didn't like is how easily he was defeated, twice. Through all of the games and lore he's the most powerful Jedi of his time, possibly the greatest general ever, and able to completely use both sides of The Force. And he gets trounced without inflicting any casualties twice.
In yavin we fought the half of revan and it was still challenging imagine it was the full revan. Also you dont fight revan 1v1 you literally have Jedi Grandmaster and Sith Dark Councils leader with you
@@starwarsfan1161in the foundry we fought one whole revan (full power) at a point in the story where you are probably a sith apprentice, 1v1. What’s your point?
@@undonechrist1384 i remember that malgus said we must act quick because revan hasnt gained his full power yet but i might not be remembering correctly
@@undonechrist1384it was never revealed it was just his dark half until the expansion finale he was never at his full power during The Foundry.
Pretty good to finally hear someone mentioning the importance of Bastila and his child in Revan's "psychic troubles" after KOTOR 1 & the novel. I always feel so sad when people systematically put them aside just like they never existed in Revan's life (especially Bastila). Thank you for that!
This is a very daring topic to broach with the community.....and I agree.
I literally said to myself as I hit the upload button... *'If you lose 500 suscribers because of this video, remember, to do is to dare'*
If anyone was ruined it was the Exile... the Exile did not deserve how much got jobbed...
May I divert you to this - th-cam.com/video/6FEmcm7hrnQ/w-d-xo.html
I felt the same way after I played it for myself. I hadn't played Swtor until years later because I never had a computer to play it back in the day, and just remembered how much everyone hated what they did. I didn't think it was amazing but it definitely wasn't terrible by any means.
There's a lot of reasons for that. For starters, from the sound of it you got to play the game after Bioware introduced a bunch of different band aids to try and cover up their screw ups from launch TOR. That *cannot* be understated. Second, Star Wars hadn't been dragged through the mud by Disney yet when this happened, so people weren't NEARLY as cynical toward the IP when TOR launched, which is to say, people weren't used to being so strongly disappointed by a Star Wars product, let alone something with as good a track record as KOTOR. That aside, a great number of people really went deep into the player avatar immersion aspect that Revan represented during KOTOR, and that made peoples reactions a LOT more extreme when the character did something they didn't like, because it didn't fit to them with their idea of the character, because on some level or another, Revan is an extension of *them*, or at least their experience.
@@ASNS117Zero not saying your wrong but by this time the prequels already dropped and everyone hated those when they first dropped
"Hate 'll keep a man alive, Spartacus" I think their need to shoehorn him into SWTOR with contrivance and convenience is where we object... It didn't ruin Revan's character, but rather his story (that he should have had in KOTOR 3)
That WE ALL should have experienced in Kotor 3.
Very true, best comment on this video because it's so true.
SWTOR 100% ruined revan. how anybody can think it didn't is beyond me. revan made huge sacrifices and took huge risks just for it to be all for nothing thanks to SWTOR. he was added to the story just to sell subscriptions. people hear "omg revan is in the game?" it brings in players. you say he's an anti villian but the things he was doing WERE right. he wanted to destroy valkorian essentially, and you stop him from doing that, only for valkorian to wreak havoc in the next expansion. its because they couldn't write in a better bad guy so they used revan.
It's funny I just did the Shadow of Revan storyline (again) in TOR like two days ago. But this was a nice clear and concise report on everything he went through.
I'm glad I could summerize it for you!
@@100StarWars oh yeah, you do excellent work. I think you, and the official LucasArts channels are the ones I go to for my SW info. Let me ask you, with the Remake coming out do you think LucasArts might take this opportunity to place KOTOR in the new canon? I only ask because I do feel like the core story plots would be the same. I haven’t read all of the new canon stuff but I don’t see how it could drastically change events so long ago. Plus back when the original KOTOR came out, that and the prequels jump started me into reading more into the EU/Legends books. I figured the Remake could do the same thing for their current efforts.
Granted this also has the drawback of altering the game which could alienate old players of the game that wanted a carbon copy remake only with today’s level of graphics. Also delving into the canon waters also has the potential for LucasArts to take a more active role into the game’s development. Which also means corporate meddling. I feel like doing either or has pros and cons.
SWTOR didn't ruin Revan, but it ended his story.
to borrow a line from the LOTR "Bilbo once told me,his part in this tale would end. That each of us must come and go in the telling"
Some people's parts drop off quickly, others linger, but ultimately everyone departs the tale, having contributed some small piece to the wider narrative.
This is a brilliant video and should be an example on how to do a discussion about matters such as these. But as I am a contrarian little rat boy who feels obligated to give his opinion on everything I have quite a bit to say starting with the whole "twisting minds" thing that happens to revan. This is one of my least favourite retcons ever. The Revan who was "born" during the mandalorian wars and continued into the jedi civil war was a monster and the idea that revan chose this path is what makes him so interesting to me. To take any accountability for the monster that revan becomes out of his hands, even so little as the vague "twists revans mind" or the idea that there was ever an order to destroy the Republic given to revan, ultimately cheapens that sacrifice revan is meant to have made. To even hint at the idea revan was not fully behind the idea to go sith turns revan from the most unique sith lord to just another jedi fallen to the dark side.
Another problem, though this one is admittedly petty, I have is the idea of hubris in revans actions. I just feel it is out of character for both the original sith lord who sacrificed his humanity for the galaxy and for the good jedi he becomes after the mind wipe. Neither feel like the type of characters who would make such an incredible mistake for the sake of their pride.
Other than these two most of my other problems just stem from the fact swtor fails to live up to kotor 2s greatness and my own expectations so yeah. Great video mate keep up the good work.
Actually one more point that I don't like is how they split revan in two. It just feels like a cheap contrivance to show an internal struggle that the games story didn't care enough to explore in detail beyond the spectacle of "omg revans back you like revan don't you look at that he's doing cool things with the force and you're the only one big and strong enough to beat him good job you". That internal struggle could have been interesting but they didn't do a good job with it. All in all loved the video but disagree almost entirely and I'm gonna ignore that revan was ever in swtor at all.
Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it! And thanks for adding to the discussion :)
I definitely feel the same way about Malak, especially considering his final exchange with Revan in the game (I am sorry I led you down this path, but you chose to continue down it.)
I wouldn't say SWTOR ruined Revan, but they did ruin Kotor as a setting for storytelling.
Ruined Revan? Not so much. Some of his companions were disrespected. We will never forget your sacrifice T3-M4.
Ruined Metra Surik and her companions? YES!
100%
@@100StarWars even though I enjoyed how Swtor redeemed their Revan mistake in a later expansion, it’s no excuse for our favorite exile to be treated in such discontent.
Maybe on the “controversial” take, will the Kotor 2 remake be an Xbox timed exclusive?
Ancestor Empire There is no Kotor II remake yet
@@ZeroSensed OT Yoda voice:
“There will be”
Ancestor Empire Oh I hope so
This video is titled why swtor didn't ruin Revan.... Proceeds to go into detail explaining exactly how swtor ruined Revan
It does ruin raven as a character, because raven is established as a character in the second game in the series, and swtor undermined everything about Kotor 2 it undermined kreia and the exile, especially those two characters, because everything that was built up about the exile in Kreia, is just completely and utterly destroyed. The exile is killed, and everything Kreia tried to do was meaningless, completely, and utterly under minded, and the idea that Reven became the dark Lord out of necessity to fight a greater evil. Nope he was just brainwashed.
F**ing THANK YOU. Finally someone else had the balls to say this! Yes it screwed over Kotor 2, but if anything, it elevated and pushed Revan to even greater heights. Think about it; in a Weakened state, it took 4 of the strongest the empire had to beat him(in that Flashpoint), then it took all the strongest barring Vitiate to take down a Prime Version of himself.
Ontop of that, what he experienced against the Emporer, makes perfect sense to what he did in SWOTOR and in Kotor 1-2 respectively.
From a certain point of view indeed.
We'll just skim past the holo the Exile discovered of Revan wearing his mask when he left Mandalore the Preserver.
While I understand this, I still remain angry. I started playing Kotor when I was 10. I believed Revan to be the greatest ever, and continued this thought for many years. Personally, I believed it was Revan’s destiny to destroy the emperor, and when I found that wasn’t the case, I never saw SWTOR the same, and lost the very little amount of desire to play it (I hate mmo’s but would’ve stuck it out to see Revan). Call me unable to “let go” but he was everything to me growing up, and I don’t think I’ll ever forgive the creators of SWTOR for what they did to him. Good video tho
'I'm extremely critical' understatement of the century Luke... I've been here for a while, and... yeah haha
Hey, I'm not *unfairly* critical :O
Just because it makes sense, it doesn't mean its good. It only makes "sense" because that's how they wrote it. The execution without a doubt was the main issue, but they literally wrote themselves into that corner. They could've done this better and that's a fact. Don't even bother trying to justify it.
It isn't even that they wrote themselves into a corner, that's the most depressing part about it. It's because they went and did the World of Warcraft model for boss design during launch TOR - they cannibalized existing parts of the IP (KOTOR) for content hoping that interacting with it would get more people to buy game boxes, and screw the story it's just there for advertising anyway.
Bold take indeed. My problem with SWTOR is how it just rewrites the stuff from KOTOR 2 and takes away from the nuance and mystery of the character. Also having him canonically use both light and dark abilities is silly AF and makes him feel like a wish fulfillment character.
Alot of what Obsidian was setting up for the character is either simplified or thrown away. For example the "Revan met no Sith Empire" line just makes zero sense now, and also his whole plan surrounding the conversion of Jedi at the end of the Mandalorian Wars makes little sense too, because Revan only learns of the Sith during the battle of Malachor V, and not before.
Its parts like these that are heavily changed and overwritten that annoys me. SWTOR didnt need to have Revan, it could have been entirely separate to KOTOR as it should be. The story of KOTOR should've been concluded with the 3rd installment of the franchise, not a cash grab mmo
EDIT : As for the part with Revan instantly becoming the person he used to be before the memory wipe when he touched the mask, I think that is just kinda boring too. I much prefer the idea of him regaining his memories over time but him actually keeping the development he gets in the 1st game (redeeing himself and correcting his wrongs, then going to the Unknown Regions to fight the Sith the correct way instead of sacrificing thousands). Its obvious the book was trying to write Revan in a way that would enable you fighting him as a dungeon boss in the MMO, and that is silly
Revan was sometimes criticized as a Gary Stu, and I always thought that was wrong. He wasn't a wish-fulfillment, super powerful character. Sure, in KOTOR, he was a charismatic leader, but he wasn't all-powerful.
Until SWTOR. Then he became so powerful that he survived for 300 years and there were Light and Dark incarnations of him. It kind of felt like a spoof of the character and a meta-commentary on the fact that players could choose to play Light or Dark side in KOTOR.
@@Dom-ns7pq he survived 300 years due to being sealed on stasis, much like Celeste Monre from the Kotor comic who was sealed for 4000 years, he doesn't live that long through his own power.
This channel suddenly started popping up in my feed a few days ago, and gosh bloody darnit of these videos aren't making me sorely miss playing SWTOR years ago.
I mean... Yeah, his character as a whole wasn't ruined, he is still my favourite character from the old republic era, but the way TOR handled him and especially the exile was obnoxious. After Kotor 2, her amazing story, the exile became an irrelevant force ghost after getting stabbed in the back, while she was supposed to be a wound in the force that passively dominates the will of others around her... No comment. Revan was rescued by the republic forces and immediately after died in a dungeon... They put him in the game just for the sake of him being there because he is a well known character. But they could've done so much more with him. Like, he could've joined the jedi on Tython and help both Jedi classes, especially the Knight when we destroyed Vitiate's body. He could've spoke with Bastila (well, kinda...) with the help of that machine we repaired during the Jedi Sage questline. In TOR, he became a madman who tried to commit mass genocide twice and only made things worse.
I watched this video to the end, alas I still think they ruined Revan in the MMO. It would have been better for Revan to die an old man with Bastilla and his legacy to live on in Sateele. The whole split soul, Revan struggling against the emperor etc is weak and disappointing at best.
Yeah exactly you got my opinion exactly
Or died trying in that same time, there would've been more stake to it that way, he has nothing left to sacrifice this far into the future, everyone he loved is dead, I guess his decedents. I do think it is contrived fanservice that wasn't needed, keep Revanites as a fun idea sure, but Revan reaaaaallly shouldn't have been here just to kill him off, they could've done that before hand with this game and nobody would complain as long as they explain oh he died doing this or passed away over the years.
I mean they didn't ruin his character. But they didn't do him any favors.
I really like how you explain the differences between the "light side" Revan and the "dark side" Revan. Also, excellent job weaving a simple thread of explaining why Revan in KOTOR is different from the Revan in the comics and SWTOR. I find it a very succinct, and easy to follow explanation, plus it gives an excellent reason of how you can enjoy doing a playthrough that includes both KOTOR and SWTOR. Hope to see the channel grow as KOTOR gets more popular again.
I point out this is that Master Chief is different from his books and comics from his video game counterpart, you know what we get with that logic? Halo 4 and 5
He actually still had some of his bloodline in SWTOR he still had Satele Shan and Theron Shan so his family wasn't entirely gone
Indeed.
Yeah, but he does next to nothing with it, that's what I mean by he's just fanservice and they hardly do anything with that at all...I would've believed this whole thing if they made him tortured but with the whole I gotta destroy the Sith extreme, he just lacks anything, and apathy is DEATH. I wouldn't have minded if the apathy took hold but like Shan's pushed something in him to show more emotion that he's broken but nothing besides the one action to make him your next raid boss. Imo it's just really bad fanservice and separate him from what he held dear in the original or .what he conquered.
I think what made Revan grating in TOR was his voice acting. He wouldn't stop yelling and only had one mode where he was constantly making declarations.
Well, I understood the concept, but I fundamentally disagreed with it. Call me a powerscaler (which concept in Star Wars, you could say, isn't really present), but I didn't think there was anyone with a stronger will than Revan in his time. And contrary to what the overall theme of Star Wars, as well as KotOR II and Kreia, tell us, for me Neutrality isn't synonymous with apathy. Being Neutral in the Force meant Revan could do anything that is possible to do with the Force, be it in the Light, Dark or Neutral.
Heal himself and others, Drain the lifefroce from surrounding life, use Force Wave, Crush and twist his opponents with the Force, chuck Lightnings at them and even create storms! And all things considered Revan WAS a Neutral spot in the Force, tasted both the Light and Dark Sides, returned from darkness which was pretty much an unprecedented feat.
He was capable of doing about anything. That's why I didn't feel like that Vitate dude could budge him, even with all the Sith alchemy and stuffs... but that's in my personal opinion.
Revan in SWTOR has some of the toughest battles. Temple of sacrifice Hard Mode is easily the most difficult veteran mode operation in the game.
I could only imagine being a big enough loser to make it that far in a bad Star Wars MMO.
Plausibility (of Revan's fate post KoToR I/II as written by new authors) has nothing to do with it. Is it plausible that Cpl. Hicks died in cryo? Sure it is, doesn't stop Alien 3 being hated by fans of that franchise. Is it plausible that Joel gets beaten to death with a golf club? Sure, but that LoU 2 story line is still one of the most despised ones in a game over the last 10 years.
There are dozens of plausible fates for Revan. For example, could the "greatest strategist of the age" have come up with a plan that succeeded and killed the emperor but both he and the exile had to give their lives in the process? Of course it is. TOR then opens under a backdrop of a Sith Empire only recently coming out of a 300 year civil war with lords and factions (including Revan cultists) still jockeying for power. TOR then is a whole different story but very much still very plausible. You or I or any 12 grader could come up with half-a dozen alternate plausible routes in a couple of days I'd wager.
It's the fact that of all the possible scenarios, the one that we get is where each plan by the "master strategist" is more ill-conceived and amateurish than the next resulting in failure after failure and a 300 year cycle of capture and torture is what is ruinous to the legacy/reputation of a person of whom Canderous Ordo once said, "You're the greatest Warrior of the Age, I'd follow you anywhere."
Well done mate, you have entirely changed my mind and everything here makes total sense. I now have more faith in you and your channel: Influence Gained!
Glad to hear it :)
I hate SWtOR’s “Revan.” Not only do I hate the idea of taking a customizeable character and erasing them in favor of one static default but the character himself is incredibly stupid, nonsensical, and feels shoehorned in for fanboys to squeal over rather than because it makes sense.
SWTOR is a gem that I found way too late, because I didnt know how much great singleplay it held. I love kotor and swtor - great games.
See I hate that stupid book. It oversimplifies everything and I really do disagree with your assessment that he wasn't mind controlled to fall to the dark side, granted I haven't re read the book in some time so I could be misremembering but that was 100% what I took away from it. Also I don't like your take that there's a Revan that was created by the council and by touching the mask he became 'his true self'. Kriea even says that the Revan that went on to defeat Malak was just Revan's true self once again risen to the surface because he couldn't remember the sacrifice he made to try and save the republic. So while I respect this analysis I still firmly believe SWTOR did ruin Revan.
To be fair though, that's just Kreia's belief. The actuality of events are just that. They stripped his mind and implanted a new persona.
The Revan everyone knows before KOTOR is dead and buried and only resurfaces after the Novel during SWTOR.
@@100StarWars you're right, it is kriea's belief and she could be wrong. I guess I just personally find that interpretation to be more interesting than the alternative that was given to us, but ultimately that just comes down to personal taste. I'll admit I'm very much biased against SWTOR and that book but I respect your ability to be more objective about it than I can. So when I say they ruined Revan I guess what I really mean is they took it in a direction that I didn't like. But hey I'm also wrong about lots of things, I'm just a cranky curmudgeon who played the sith Lords way more than was necessary!
Also I really like your channel I just found it and started binging because at this point I would say I'm more of KOTOR than actual Star wars.
This is fairly typical defensive analysis and it suffers from the same issues most defensive analysis does. Stories are more than their plot summary dude. If a character feels as though they've been stripped of their agency by the writing then they may as well have been. And I don't see what purpose these elements serve really, but one thing that's for certain is they give that feeling
Swtor can't ruin anything if you pretend it doesn't exsist
Hahah
Nearly 3 years later, I remembered this video and used it for a post-secondary critical analysis paper. Just a great video essay.
I also hate vitamin emperor in swtor. How is he that much more powerful than revan I hate that he supposed to be a Sith Lord before is taken out.
To be honestly I love that they added Revan and honestly the mmo swtor is supposed to be kotor3 but witha new character to finish Revan's story
The Old Republic ruined everything; Revan, The Exile, Star Wars, video games, everything. Even milk doesnt taste the same
I did feel like Revan was a bit shoehorned into SWTOR, but I didn't care. I love Revan, and I love him in TOR, no matter how awkwardly he's integrated into the story
Your explanation is plausible and certainly a good way of making sense.
I think however it's beside the point.
Revan had the potential to be a character that had both the redemption aspect of Anikin and the hero aspect of Luke Skywalker.
While what you said about Kotor II can make sense, the interpretation of what Kreia says can be fairly wide which I think is what that game tried to achieve.
Giving Revan the chance to be instrumental in defeating the evil emperor rather than make him a toy that goes back and forth is what I would have loved to see and why I was and still am disappointed in swtor.
I just think of how revan in the original was ambiguous so people could play him/her in so many different ways with different outcomes. I never felt like anyone who played a different path than mine had less or more value. So that’s what I think about swtors take…it doesn’t ruin it for me. It’s not the story I had in my mind for my revan..and that’s fine. I’m just about having fun. I don’t care what is canon or isn’t. My Luke skywalker isn’t the Disney version. Doesn’t mean the Disney version doesn’t have value to someone and that’s good for them …I just choose legacy Luke as my preference.
Never really thought SWTOR ruined Revan. But hey the Star Wars community is something else sometimes. I LOVE Revan's story. He's my favorite Star Wars character.
I remember a time when I had theorized a long while that he was still fighting his last fight. One last battle. And Scourge was helping him. I was so happy to see them together once more. Even more so with imo his successor, he was able to beat the monster once and for all. Even though he was evil when he made his own faction, he wasn’t wrong to do so. The HoT/Commander did the same thing but better. I’d like to think even after death when he became whole, even though he was focused on beating the emperor, he also wanted to create something that could mediate both sides. An Alliance
Swtor changed from being an 8 story path to a Jedi Knight path played by 8 different classes
You're right, SWTOR didn't ruin Revan, the book did.
so like, i don't disagree with what you are saying regarding swtor's revan, my main problem is that this isn't revan of kotor 3 which is what all of us are looking for, you know, the revan that isn't about failures... but about prophecy and about the sith empire invasion not the revan that is raughly 30 years too late and can't do shit to fix nothing.
after listening to kreia in the jedi enclave rebuilt scene i think the trilogy was sapouse to be about what is the prophecy of the one, which was revan = anakin, and the exile = luke, one cannot succeed without the other, and when their goals align OP shit gonna happen. (same as in malachor 5, once the exile and revan were aligned a cataclysm never to be forgotten occured).
the reason i think this is what kotor trilogy was trying to do is based on multiple stuff but ill give the short version of my opinion.
the prequels were coming out along side this trilogy, a trilogy of movies about anakin and his decent to the dark side, while we all had the knowledge of how his story ends.
in kotor we get to see the galaxy 4000 years before the movies and get a story kinda similar to anakin of a man who became dark sided OP leader who changes the face of the galaxy but unlike vader gets an other chance at living a new life, something vader would dream of.
we get to see revan new chance at living and saving the galaxy while we all know that no matter what will happen, the empire will get reduced into 2 sith, a master and apprentice, a rule we only learn about in the prequel trilogy, as George Lucas likes to say "it rhymes" kotor was about rhyming with the prequels.
so the rhyme is that in 1 trilogy we see how the jedi are getting slaughtered and in the other trilogy we see the same happens to the sith.
in 1 trilogy we see a man descent to the dark side, while in the other we see him salvaged from the dark side and saving the galaxy.
1 trilogy is about how the fact that even if vader will return to the light, it wont save his broken body and his life, while the other got his identity stolen and thanks to that he got a second chance at living, that's why revan's mask is so monumental, him getting his identity back after he got his new chance at life should be the moment he is at his strongest form, a complete balanced force user, one who ruined the galaxy, destroyed planets and civilizations, held the galaxy by it's throat and had the star forge as a nuclear weapon, and 1 who saved the galaxy from the same threat, (himself and his legacy as darth revan with darth malak and the star forge).
conclusion: kotor is about the prophecy of the one who brings balance to the force and what it required.
it required a man to be engulfed by the pain and hate of the galaxy out of sheer care to others, then losing his mind and being reborn a new to find out an other way of trying to protect others (again, by his sheer care to others). then mixing both personalities to discover both succeed and failed at specific aspects. so finding the correct method to save the galaxy mixing bad and good to be able to defeat the emperor.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
@@100StarWars hey man, thank you as well, after typing that comment i found myself writing an other comment for 2 hours, it turned out to be about 2 chapters of writing about how metra and obsidians revan met after kotor 2 and what revan would say once he got his memories. it turned out amazing but too long to post as a comment, i havn't finished it but for the most parts, i found answers to the questions about revan once i been in "my" revan's mind. if you want, i can send you the entire thing on email, i think it's pretty great even if my english isn't that good (second language)
i really feel like i found actual answers, answers that would be correct, it feels like it has to be the truth of what was the plan thanks to timeline and normal cause and effect of events
I loved Revan, but then I encountered his..."fanbase"... Ever since then my feelings are mixed on him.
Many people treat Raven as the cheat character which can max out every skill, and all attributes, in many people mind HE HAS NO FLAW! I say it out loud, a lot of people love "Revan" their interpreted idealised version of him who is borderline Gary Sue. Which ironic considering how much those same people hate Rey (With good reason, but it makes them hypocrites)
However what I love how almost every one of these people misunderstand what Kreia meant when she talked about Revan. She said, that there was the *possibility* that Revan never truly fell.
This was one of the many lessons, where she once again, taught you to investigate happenings, from a different angle. She did not explicitly stated it as a fact.
And also, I love how people actually take everything Kreia says as face-value and trust her 100%. Like she is not manipulative or something.
Completely agree, alot of the people who treat Star wars like Dragon Ball Z seem to love Revan, along with some grey Jedi fanfic types who think you can use both aspects of the force without severe consequences. When you ask someone who their favorite Star Wars character is and they answer basically "Myself", it should set off some red flags lol.
That was a great explanation and I couldn't have said it any better, my friend. This was a well thought out video and should open up some minds as well as eyes to the whole story of Revan and not just what they remember or think they remember from the KOTOR games. Well done, my friend.
Thank you, Lord Darth Revan ;)
@@100StarWars You're welcome, homie.
*Revan returns to the galaxy*
*Revanites being like: 😎😎*
When revan died, he had come to terms, he was ready to become one With the Force, but he soon realised what part of him wanted
Which swtor storyline/campaign covers the revan story please?
I sometimes think Revan was the 'Chosen One' as he definitely used both light and dark sides of the force. The Jedi of the time couldn't see it due to their fear of the dark side. Vitiate couldn't destroy him although he did perhaps split his light and dark side. I thought SWTOR did a good job with him by letting him be part of the destruction of Tenebrae, his ultimate goal.
I always was saddened that Revan wasn't the one to beat Vitiate, but I understand. (Especially from a game development standpoint.)
It was just not right to see someone as naturally gifted with power as Revan lose to someone who had to use a ritual to steal the power. Natural Valkorion vs Natural Revan and Revan wins. Easy.
It's just a other tragedy of Star Wars.
I wish the Sith and Jedi would have left him alone, but they couldn't. Both feared his power.
I firmly believe that Revan never fell to the Darkseid. He only embraced the force in its entirety.
Good video, mate. Keep it up.
Swtor didn't ruin Revan but the Exile in the other hand and that is the only thing that argers me about the whole Revan's story in the novel and Swtor
Agreed
I disagree with you *heavily* here .(Gigantic wall of text ahead)
1. The very first mistake you make is to use TOR and The Revan novel as references to prove your point but the problem is that fans who hate TOR do not accept these references , nullifying most of your points .
In fact you explored these pieces of content so much that you have forgotten who Revan was painted and intended as in both KOTOR1 and 2.
2. Revan did not commit genecide to destroy genecide , he did so to break the will of the Jedi who followed him to the dark side and then used Malachor's academy to train the assassin's we see in KOTOR2 .
The point of KOTOR1 was whether or not memories define character , by the end of the game you can become the Revan that was before or the one he should've been . Malak's dialogue also hint that despite the councils work , by the end of the game Revan's mind and personality is finally his own , only changed from his experience in the game .
3. To ruin Kotor2's "True Sith" is to ruin Revan , Kreia and The Exile . Since these characters had their arcs tied to these antagonists and these beings were told to us as cosmic beings who are much more powerful than Kotor2's and their empire was built on belief and the force rather than droids or "legions" , which is the exact opposite of KotorII's .
With the threat deminished , these characters were diminished as well .
4. TOR undermines the arcs of Revan and The Exile . Through Revan's actions in KOTOR he learnt his mistakes and understood what he should've been . By making him do the exact same mistakes as before is bring him back to step one and making him "insane" is not exactly appropriate to the vision that was built of him in KOTOR2 or as the face of the franchise .
The Exile was also treated horribly , she should've reflected the teachings of Kreia in a better light and be a conduit for "The Battle of Belief" to the player . Instead she just sacrifices herself so TOR can have a few more expansions that as I established before , do not bring a satisfying ending .
6. The idea of a split soul is not unique at all , it is heavily used in fantasy stories in order to justify undermining growth or deaths . They did it twice with Tenebrae and once with Revan and it isn't done to make the character more interesting , it is done to justify their usage in yet another DLC.
7. Onslaught doesn't bring a good end either , it just brings back our beloved protagonists for novelty and nostalgia .
So no , TOR did ruin Revan for the reasons I listed above .
I didn't know the Dread Masters were involved with torturing Revan. Interesting.
They were indeed!
Honestly when I found out that swtor was MMO I just never wanted to get involved with it . I get it and it's bioware but nah fam . Sigh smh I was so disappointed by that . I heard the stories is better than most MMO games but idk if their on par with rpg games and that's where I wanted revan and the Kotor universe to have stayed personally. I know it wasn't Kotor 3 but if it's anything surrounding revan and the exile or the ramifications of their actions or inactions I don't wanna play no MMO . It would be nice if bioware made the game for console though like some MMO's over the past years have done . I would be inclined to try it out . But generally I don't rock with MMO games
It completes Revan story and gives a little bit more perspective to that era. You can play story content totally solo. Some class stories are really really good. And then after class stories goes the build up for Revan resolution. Also, dialogues are epic: playing for the sith and making all the light choices is super fun and feels totally different to playing the same story but doing typical sith stuff. And as usual from older Bioware games: amazing voice acting and music. I played it on release and came back almost 10 years later to finish the stories and all of the add-ons - and it feels good. Though leveling and the solo gameplay feel like easy mode now.
@@graved1gger thanks for your input .
I’m with you man, never been an MMO person whatsoever. Really sucked when they said SWTOR would be KOTOR 3,4,5, etc.
@@graved1gger is it even canon?
@@graved1gger I'm gonna be that guy that gives the opposite opinion here. The thing about TOR is that the overarching story of the early parts of the game were pretty bad. Some of the class specific storylines were good, but the parts that everyone got to play were pretty lousy until you finished Shadow of Revan and got to Ziost. The plot before Ziost is mediocre at the best of times, complete trash at the worst of times, and it gets carried hard by the audio and visual aspects, such as the music and voice acting.
TOR makes a pretty hard turn out of having a shit story to having a relatively good story when you hit Knights of the Fallen Empire, though. Valkorian carries the plot (more specifically, Valkorian's voice actor Darin de Paul) kind of hard at times, but it's definitely a step up from anything TOR had shown up to that point.
That being said, you're right about it basically being easy mode now. The story basically plays itself.
Nobody cares about the Exile? All the teachings of Kreia are in vain! She does not deserve this.
The funny thing is I’m currently playing through shadow of Revan on swtor as I comment this and tbh I feel as tho swtor adds more to the character who I have loved in Star Wars for so long , I also see how it connects what happened in the kotor games and swtor (the two flashpoints and the shadow of Revan expansion) together into an over arching story
Woulda been a lot cooler if he was the emperor in swtor
In my opinion, the 300 years leap to SWTOR was wrong and keeping Revan for those 300 years in order to be included in SWTOR was pure marketing move to attract more players. It harms the character and the storyline because it puts too much story on one character. The whole SWTOR seems to me like a mistake.
The original story of a jedi, who lead the Republic in the Mandalorian wars, then the sith in Jedi Civil war until his redemption and final defeat of Malak and saving the Republic was a lot to begin with. If compared to other star wars stories and accomplishments of other heros, this alone would be enough. The subsequent search for the real SIth Empire still made sense and there, with Revan novel, should have ended the story of Revan.
I can imagine different and more interesting endings of the Revan novel, where Revan and Meetra are defeated by the Emperor, but they manage to seriously wound him. Revan would be captured but first he would order Meetra to escape and warn the Republic. The Emperor would imprison Revan and try to extract information from his mind and just as in the novel Revan could also influence mind of the Emperor and increase his sense of vulnerability and paranoia. The paranoid Emperor driven mad by Revan would then enact another ritual like that on Nathema but on much larger scale, which would kill him, damaged the Sith Empire and prevent immediate attack on the Republic. Thus would Revan in his defeat also as his final act defeated the Emperor and saved the Republic once more but at a cost of millions of relatively innocent lives. Meetra would escape, warn the Republic as ordered, and then returned for Revan but would not be able to free him before Emperor enacted the ritual, so she would at least report on those events back to Republic.
The plot for KoTOR 3 could then focus on rebuilding the Republic (Light Side) or the true Sith Empire (Dark Side) and then on the war between the two with both sides ready for one another. Revan's and Meetra's followers could play important role as generals in that war and finish what Revan started. If necessary, Revan could appear as force ghost with minor role, but nothing more.
I respect your position, but I still disagree. The SWTOR storyline is so convoluted and ridiculous that I just can't accept it.
It may not have ruined Revan, but it really screwed the Jedi Exile into the ground.
Amen to that.
I always thought that SWTOR handled the Revan story and bringing it to a conclusion amazingly well. And, It's not quite the last we see of him. We do see him one more time when the Emperor Tenebrae, Vitiate/Valkorian is finally destroyed. Such a wonderfully complex morality tale.. and the telling there of. Pretty Sure George Lucas approved and approved of it. Almost makes me wish the Bioware writing team would have been given the job of writing the script for the prequal movies!
I still believe SWtOR ruined Revan in that they changed Revan's story, reasons, and motivations to inferior states. His story was made less cool and interesting with the information we were provided in the MMO.
This is really well put together. To be honest when I put Revans story in full perspective I always feel that his destiny was never to stop Vitiate. It was to prepare the galaxy to fight the True Sith Empire.
Think of it this way. Revan set into motion the events of Kotor 2, the events for the rebirth of the Jedi Order, uncorrupted and improved. He also held off Vitiate for 300 years so that the Republic and Jedi could rebuild their forces.
Though that's just my interpritation.
Initial reaction: He is NOT my Revan, so I think of him as Drew Karpyshyn's/BioWare's Revan for their Infinities storyline currently known as The Old Republic. Heck, other fans will agree, considering their Revan might not have romanced Bastila, is a woman, is Dark Sided all the way, etc.
Later reaction: ... Really, really good take on the character. Seriously, gotta love the archetype (is that the right definition?) of a desperate enough man who goes to great lengths to serve, protect, and save the very things he loved no matter the cost and no matter the amount of hubris received... might want to try writing about that character archetype myself one day too.
Still not my... OUR Revan though, but then again, TOR is an alternate reality in an unknown Multiverse of destiny, uniqueness, strength, and so on.
I played kotor 1 and 2 at launch. I experienced the plot twist and followed the exile. The games were among some of the best experiences I have had in vidoe games. I was heartbroken when 3 never happened. Now fas forward to the swtor. I played it at launch. I stopped after finishing the initial story mode. Got the family name and whole 9 yards. Multiplalayer meant nothing to me. I heard about the expansion and turned it down. My thoughts was no kotor 3 but they give you this expansion. I felt it was a slap to the face of both games. The exile was marginalized, a glorified footnote. I completely understand your point that the Revan we got was the character before the change. It just felt like the legacy of the kotor games meant nothing.
Revan will always be awesome
“Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan... and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone.”
I think Revan deserved a 3rd game and in it, ultimate victory
Was there an exerpt or any evidence that said that the Emperor's influence faded during the Jedi Civil War? I don't remember that in the Revan novel or in TOR, but I could be wrong. Please, I'd like to be shown the quote or excerpt.
Yes, Revan states he and Malak broke free from his control in the cave whilst talking to Scourge and Meetra
@@100StarWars Thank you!
No, SWtOR MMO did not ruin Revan, the last book in the Revan series tailored toward the upcoming (at the time) SWtOR series did however. Drew unfortunately wasted an amazing character and story with the last book and at the time of its release there was a large player/fan base that voted to redact that book as it did little to no justice to the characters.
I like that Revan wakes up after 300 years and his first thought is “I’m going to build an army and mess up the emperor”. What a chad.
Thank you for the words of confidence my friends. May The Force be with you & serve you well.
I agree with your opinion. SWTOR didn’t ruin Revan, it added more to his character to the point where he became a tortured soul that was split in two thanks to The Sith Emperor/Darth Vitiate. His light side became one with the force, while his inner demons, his dark side, clung to life, refusing to die. The poor man was insane, and it was all The Emperor’s fault. Hell, this made me love Revan even more because his story is not only similar to Anakin/Vader’s (insert “it’s like poetry, it rhymes” quote here), it’s also, in a story sense, a great way to finally give Revan the peace he deserved.
The root problem is structural gameplay. In KotoR he is the main character; the hero of his own story, and in fact TSL while not playable is entirely about Revan. Its revelations, in fact the entire point of the game was to assemble Revan’s team to come join him. TSL effectively elevates Revan to a “god” - not power, but TSL so more fully fleshed out Revan’s mystique as strategist than KotoR ever did.
TOR unfortunately falls short in continuing. It (base game) suffers from using Revan as a mid-level NPC in non-required side content. And in doing so, essentially made him a genocidal psychopath.
Additionally, the eponymous TOR: Revan novel -what should have been KotoR 3 - ends up with his plans in tatters, Exile killed, and him locked away for 300 years. Further, the novel suffered from constraint of being impractical to write in _all_ of the companions, so it served as a sheety send-off to him in his own novel.
Sorry, TOR did Revan dirty.
I'm sad about how Revan's story ended, but I do love how they used everything to set up Vitiate. Vitiate was legitimately awesome.
I'm glad you liked him.
@@100StarWars You didn't? I just discovered your channel
I enjoyed the Valkorian stuff, much less the stuff before. Welcome to the community!
@@100StarWars ohhhh. Yeah this "Sith Emperor" you meet in the Jedi Knight story mode is really flat and... honestly he's just kinda there. I meant the Valkorian stuff. I just conflate like all of it, and I think of him as Vitiate instead of Valkorian or Tenebrae