Kreias voice actor also deserves a lot of credit. Even though its "just a game" she gives the character enough gravitas to convey her ideas in earnest.
Oh yeah, I mean she carried the game to the end. And she was all we got for the ending and ... it was good enough for me. Made me play the hell out of SWTOR. lol
Kotor 2 was always my favorite not because of the gameplay but because it’s story always encouraged me to think deeper and more critically than any other game and that was something I enjoyed especially when the conclusions I came to applied to me personally in some way that made me a better person as a whole. It’s not often that video games make someone a better person but Kotor 2 made me better at a time when I needed to improve and for that it will be my favorite game for all time
When it comes to Kreia's philosophy, I feel freedom was ultimately her final goal. She was a broken woman who felt her dependency on the power of the Force had robbed her of her life and freedom. She is right for advocating the strength that comes from within, to denounce the dogmatism of the Jedi and the pointless thirst for power of the Sith. Her extreme individualism is where she becomes flawed... She was a very lonely person, and in a sense it gave her strength but also made her quite bitter. She needed, much like the companions of the exile, to heal herself. But she couldn't let people in because she was maybe afraid... I feel this is part of why Kreia is so well liked by people. She is relatable on a visceral level. The desire for freedom and independence, the hidden hurt and the fear of letting people in for it could result in further pain. The bitterness and feeling your life wasn't your own, the will to try and get it back yet you cannot escape the past. Many of us carry this kind of pain and we all face it in different ways. Kreia's path is one followed by many, consciously or not. Fewer follow the path of the Exile. Healing is hard and painful, letting people in is terrifying... In the end, I think what matters is the will to try and heal, to confront the demons and darkness within, whichever path we chose to follow.
Well said, I felt very similarly about her when I played through. And I always related heavily with her. I've always rejected the black and white musings of society. I feel that balance usually lies in between the two extremes. And in that avoidance of conforming, we tend to find our genuine self somewhere in the middle. However, similar to kreia's loneliness, I look around and I see people in their black and white extremes finding such solace in each other. Meanwhile I'm just drifting out in the nether between them, with no one to truly relate to. . I understand why people conform to black and white extremes, we are social creatures after all. And those beliefs create a sense of brotherhood/sisterhood between folks. But it's just never been for me. I prefer freedom, even if it is at the cost of human connection.
This game is *the* reason I like Star Wars in the first place. It gives the universe an incredible richness of depth and life which I haven’t seen equaled in any other Star Wars property. Also making Kreia angry is funny.
You should read the darth bane trilogy it’s amazing! Even listening to the audiobook, that trilogy really adds some depth to the sith. But yeah I need to play kotor 2
@@CenturianEagle Darth Bane trilogy and KOTOR are why I am still invested in star wars. SWTOR was great in the beginning. I’m just waiting for the day I finally get a KOTOR live action that isn’t dogsh!t. Clone wars is great too.
@@FormerGovernmentHuman clone wars and rebels were both good. I couldn’t do resistance though, but yeah I really liked rebels just as much as I liked the clone wars. But yeah the bane trilogy is great, imagine that was a show! Live action or even cgi at this point, but that story is great I think it would give a lot to build on to do a kotor one after, but I know I’m probably alone in wishing for a bane show over a kotor show. I just think it would be so cool to see the training stuff and like how they undermine each other and things like that, the books were written damn well
Kreia is the best possible antagonist for a Star Wars story. A philosophical anti-Jedi that wants the death of the Force because it has a will that it imposes on the galaxy. It's thematically perfect, the apex of Sith desire for freedom tempered with actual wisdom.
I am glad you can see her as the villain. I hear so many people try to defend Kreia as being correct and some sort of “grey Jedi” even though grey Jedi don’t exist and are oxymorons. You either serve the force “light” or serve your own selfish desires for personal power and gain “dark side”. But I digress, Kreia is a Sith Lord and evil from the very beginning but just like Palpatine in the prequels she is a master manipulator from start to finish and she never helps anyone, least of all the player, she only manipulates and twists people to become evil very slowly over time. You bring up a great point too, she wants the exile to kill the force because the will of the force is for everyone to do good and help others which completely goes against everything she wants. It’s essentially the same mindset of a suicide bomber, such radial devotion and hate for something preventing what she wants she is willing to kill what prevents her from achieving her desires even if it means killing herself too
@@roninjedi2494 THANK YOU. So many people seem to forget that each of the Sith triumvirate were avatars of a specific trait, Keria’s being betray. Aka everything out her mouth is pure bullshit. Nor do they acknowledge she is blaming the force as excuse to avoid accountability for creating Nihilus and causing the issue to begin with.
@@roninjedi2494 What she wanted would've caused a genocide unrivaled by any Star Wars villain ever, and I mean a body count potentially in the thousands or trillions if not more. While her intentions were understandable and the force would surely rack up more deaths over time, there's no excuse for an atrocity on such an unimaginable scale. Sure the force may "Want" sentients to do good, yet its willing to repeat a destructive cycle ad nauseum until it gets its way, resulting the the deaths of so many who don't deserve it. I see the force as a body, and a single dark side user like a disease, so it'll do anything to purge it. To me, Kreia is a villain, but so is, to some extent, The Force, albeit unwittingly. Kreia seeks genocide to impose her own beliefs on the galqaxy, and the force uses genocide in an attempt to, if only for a moment, regain its so called "balance". The Force MUST die if free the galaxy is ever to be truly free from this endless cycle, but not at Kreia's price. (Plus even without The Force, sentients will take any excuse to kill the shit out of eachother anyway, The Force is just another contributor to it in that galaxy)
@@KainZeuxis I suppose if you want to get technical, Revan created Nihilus since it was the destruction of Malachor and surviving it that turned Nihilus into what he is and saw him discover how to feed on others to such an extreme dagree, but Kreia did play a part in teaching him how to control and focus his hunger. Though Nihilus was gonna be a peril to the galaxy with or without Kreia's meddling. There is a theory that Revan actually passed through the Trayus academy to meet with Kreia again before going into the unknown, and that it was Revan who manipulated Sion and Nihilus to betray and kill Kreia because he thought her goal of killing the force was utter madness (Only she somehow survived the attempt)
Interestingly, Chris Avallone (the game's director) didn't like Star Wars at the time as there were elements within it he was not fond of. However, he approached it in a great way. He didn't do as others do, taken it as an opportunity to trash what they don't like or turn it into something else, cutting it off from what it was and alienating the fans. He put everything that should be in a Star Wars game into Kotor 2, and through all these things that made Star Wars so great, used it to show us what he finds flawed about it. He gave us exactly what we want, but showed us something we hadn't seen or thought of before. People that can do that are few.
Very true. When developing KOTOR 2, Chris Avellone took it upon himself to read every Star Wars book, watch all the movies and TV shows (up to that point including the Holiday Special) and really immerse himself in the Galaxy Far Far Away. What we got in KOTOR 2 was the byproduct of all that hard work and investment.
SWJKA and KOTOR 2 made me realize I had no choice but to keep star wars #1 in my heart. Honestly miss their aesthetics, atmosphere, settings -- hell I miss all of it.
It’s important to note that the lead developer of Knights of the Old Republic II was Chris Avellone, the man who wrote for Jedi: Fallen Order and was responsible for developing games like Fallout 2, the undeveloped Black Isle Fallout 3 (Van Buren), and New Vegas. His writing has always been top-tier.
@@aamirrazak3467 it’s alright. It’s a continuation of KOTOR 1 which was still a good game, but it came nowhere near the levels of amazing that KOTOR 2 achieved
There is a rare scene in which Kreia praises a light side action, because you encourage another to help others in turn. Because she acknowledges that you strengthened both of them.
@@Nobody32990 I just looked it up, she doesn't praise you for that, she think that someone like that doesn't deserve redemption. But, she respect your opinion, and you don't lost any influence on her (unlike many other things she disagree with).
I played the retail copy of this game when I was young. It came straight out of the box so didn't have any of the restored content, and I was still too youthfully ignorant to fully understand some of the themes; Kreia's nietzschian outlook on the force, the nuance lacking in the classic good vs. evil tales we see in traditional SW stories. But even so, I still found it to be a masterpiece that left a huge impression on me. It continues to be refreshing for me to see so many others singing its praises to this day, because this game definitely deserves it.
@@arsenal-slr9552 thats because rian was way too busy focusing on the artisitic side of star wars in a way that made people angry. He is such a nasty person ngl
I love how the game nails its atmosphere down perfectly. You can never escape the feeling that there's some sort of danger stalking you in the shadows of the Galaxy. You actually feel hunted throughout most of the game, until you and your companions decide to face the Sith on Telos.
Absolutely one of the greatest scripts for a story, in general, ever. Bao Dur and Kreia just steal every scene they are in. I love this video. Great work.
Bao Dur is a critically underrated character. The voice actor is incredible. His and your character’s story are so tied together with the trauma of Malachor. Light or Dark side whichever way you take him fits so well given that connection.
Bao Dur gets complaints from some players that he's boring. But he's not. The voice actor was great in showing just how broken Bao Dur was in what he did -- Creating the Mass Shadow Generator that was responsible for killing millions and destroying an entire planet. He was shattered by the whole thing, beaten and broken down, still carrying the weight from what happened a decade later. You may sound like that yourself if you went through all of that. I also enjoyed the conversations with him, and felt bad when he had to give his little droid buddy the suicide mission. Kreia.... I'd have to say she's _the_ best overall character in any Star Wars media. One of the best-written, and best portrayed. Sarah Kestelman was the perfect fit for voicing Kreia. Many of the things she spoke about The Force was something I thought of through the years of my love for Star Wars. It was a master class in how to write a character. We need more like Kreia in games.... not the actual character, just that well-written.
Bao Dur is the ASMR King and an excellent stand in for anyone who created something with less than noble intentions but then had to watch as that thing became more terrible than he could possibly imagine. I’m reminded of the Winchester rifle or fertilizer: powerful things that seemed necessary and became deadly very quickly.
I was basically raised on this game. When I was 7, my uncle bought my brother and I a game each: He bought me Sonic Heroes and my brother KOTOR 2. I soon became bored of Sonic (cos the last Emerald is damn impossible to get) and jumped into KOTOR. I initially found Kreia to be an irritating old crone, constantly yelling at me for helping people. But soon I started listening to her words and I soon understood what she was trying to teach me. Always look at the consequences of your actions, whether you mean good or ill. Work hard to better yourself, don't accept shortcuts offered by others. But most importantly, always be open to new ideas and opinions but always test to ensure they are valid and true. Kreia was one of my mentors (the other being Iroh). It is from them I am the person I am today.
@@Rinzler555 People find comfort and guidance in fiction, when good real life role models are missing or lacking. If he has found success in his life and has learned and practiced valuable life lessons, it doesn't matter from who they got them from, whether a family member or a video game/book/movie character. My inspiration and mentor figure is Rocky Balboa and I have no shame in that, for that character motivates and pushes me daily to become a stronger and better person. Through Kreia, I became familiar with Nietzsche's work and allowed me to learn much. So please, do not mock one for finding peace in somebody else's work, it doesn't matter if it's a painting, a book or a game character.
@@Rinzler555 you can retell real life stories and ideas in manner not loaded by real life baggage through fiction. Philosophically speaking guy was exposed in his childhood to Nietzsche (Kreia) and stoicism (Iroh).
I only now realized just how this game has effected me as a person. I constantly try to live like I played the light side PC. Always trying to make some one else’s life a bit better. Being human sometimes makes that hard. Well regardless, I would like to see a video on the philosophies you guys touched on.
Well said, the theological themes of Star Wars have always drawn me towards it, and probably why I desire to be altruistic without being a fanatic about it.
@@JohnSmith-fo5cx your right, humans have a sinful nature, but through Jesus Christ we can become so much more. Even if we don't do evil things, the sinful nature is always present, and naturally we would not desire to be altruistic. JC gives us a way out of that nature, and the ability to be altruistic naturally.
Personally I feel Star Wars became so much more outside of George Lucas trilogy, it had to. The art outgrew the artist as they say. These are the Star Wars stories that I adore, so rich with lore and fantastic ideas that could never be shown in a 2 hour movie.
Yeah, I agree. and I actually am quite happy with the Disney purchase personally. Im loving seeing all these new series and movies come out. Im not gonna praise the sequels or anything, but they didnt ruin Star Wars for me at all either. I just sort of live with it and am happy to have new content coming out so consistently. I know a lot of people hated Boba and Kenobi, I personally liked them just fine though (Kenobi really should have been better though that was an easy homerun they coulda had 🤷) but as they work our the kinks, im sure they'll figure it out. Im hoping at least. Super excited for Bad Batch season 2 premiering on the 4th though! Just 2 more days!!
Yes, exactly. All this discourse about whether George would've approved of each direction taken is futile, IMHO, because Star Wars is a universe where we can take multiple different directions.
@@whorror_punx There was a lot of content coming out during the golden age of Star Wars (the 2000s). Just because that content wasn't in the form of big budget shows or movies, doesn't mean Star Wars was dead back then. It simply used to be quality over quantity, but not anymore.
After playing KOTOR 2 for the first time, it became my favorite game of all time. The writing and dialogue were top notch and really made you think about the greater galaxy and question what you knew about the jedi, sith and the force itself. Kreia was a superb teacher and later antagonist, and is imo the best written character in all of star wars. Nihilus and Sion were also both really interesting villains, and the jedi exile's story was cool in how it connected to Revan's, and how the Exile was sort of picking up the pieces of the galaxy following the jedi civil war. The supporting characters were great, and the story is imo the greatest in all of star wars, not your conventional light vs dark as you said, but something more nuanced and greater. I think obsidian absolutely nailed this game and it was a shame they were rushed in development, i wish more star wars fans and gamer in general knew about how phenomenal kotor 2 is. I only wish obsidian had been able to finish and release their kotor 3, it was shaping up to be a sensational conclusion to a brilliant trilogy.
What the hidden Sith empire could have been gives me chills, especially with Darth Nihilus running around: Nihilus could feel any gathering of Force users and drain them and the planet they were on…and he makes no move on the other Sith. Either they had the power to hide themselves from that force of nature, or he was saving them for when he was able to confront them.
idk, i mean Vitate is ultimately pretty boss, i mean over 1000 years old and veteran of the great hyperspace war, the original galactic conflict. so powerful that he could keep tons of sith who usually just start killing each other in line that whole time, all the while having a hidden back up shadow empire.... mf had not one but 2 secret empires. most successful sith lord ever outside of old palpy himself.
well vitiates empire, while impressive and the cultural and aesthetic model that palpatines empire would adopt, never completely defeated the republic or the jedi. the republic still controlled about 1/3 of the galaxy at vitiates height, and there were still a few thousand jedi. ol palpatine was the only, and i mean only, sith to actually achieve total galactic domination. (thats why it wasnt the second sith empire, but the FIRST GALACTIC empire) and had the jedi reduced from thousands to a few dozen that would be hunted down by his aprentice vader after the clone wars. he got closer to eradicating the jedi than any other. and you cant count nilhus there either, most the jedi were already gone before he even showed up, took an army of madolorians, sith and two wars to reduce the jedi to what they would be in kotor2. old palpatine did all that just by himself, no force powers required. kreia would actually be pretty proud of that particular achievement. (would probably hate what palpatine would do with the empire though...)
4000 BBY to 3950 BBY, give or take maybe a decade, is probably the best set of Star Wars stories ever told. 100% my singularly favorite period in all of Galactic history.
I think it’s no exaggeration that you could practically write a book on how deep KOTOR 2 was as a game and story. It is a travesty that we will probably never get another Star Wars story like it, at least while Disney’s still around.
IMO, Star Wars video games really started going downhill with the Force Unleashed, which was long before the sale to Disney. Was upset there was never a KOTOR 3 and Jedi Knight 3.
Kreia is the prime example why this game is great. She is the perfect antagonist as she constantly challenges the player's beliefs. And still, I wouldn't say she is pure evil. If you act too cruel during the game, she dislikes it the same way she dislikes charity. At one point she even claims that she never wanted the Jedi to die. Being defeated, but not dead. I wouldn't even say that she is a Sith. As she said to Atris, they both aren't what their titles suggest. I always saw Kreia more as an entity of her own. Of course, she is a villain and does horrible things during the game. She manipulates and kills people, she is even willing to commit genocide when it helps her to achieve the goal (but she also has no problems with harming herself, like when she stabbed herself on Dantooine to teach the Exile a lesson and in the end she even sacrifices herself. That's something a Sith would never do). Her idea of killing the force itself is really unique. But whenever she speaks and challenges you, she has a point. I learned a lot from her and her philosophy.
This was an amazing video. My favorite part is the “Healing together” chapter starting 34:24. I like how you delved into the individual deep traumas that each companion carries. One of the biggest themes in this game is trauma and overcoming it to become stronger & wiser. The exile exerts powerful influence over her companions to help them “come to terms with their past” as you said. Opening them to the force is the most beautiful outcome to this…
This video was very well done and the maker’s commentary was on point all the way through. I remember when I first started playing the game, I was skeptical at first. Running around with a droid and a Han Solo wannabe looked bleak at first. But wow - little by little, you peel back the layers and its one of the most profound and entertaining stories ever written, much less in a video game. My favorite aspect of the game are the companions. Their backstories and development as the game goes along really adds a ton of depth to the story as a whole. They’re not just a bunch of side-kicks. They end up being a key part of the quest. Its a story where the main character, the Exile, doesnt really “progress” or “develop”, except as his/her companions develop. That’s unique and fresh dynamic. And everything ties together - the Exile, the past, the antagonists, the companions - it all ties together for a complete story. Anyway, well done on the video. How I wish the “content” we are given nowadays had 1/10th the depth, thoughtfulness, and connectivity KOTOR2 had.
Loved your analysis of this game. KOTOR2 is imo, the best RPG game ever made. Sure it's very dated, but the story and characters were so well done, that I even play it today and still get immersed in this brilliant game.
Meetra was in a sense able to turn her wound from a black hole that consumes into a white hole that gives. The most basic explanation of her wound is finally complete
Redistributes. Exile still feeds on death like Nihlus (story explanation for xp mechanic in game) but can redistribute this power to others while Nihlus is like constantly starving animal that has no control over its instincts. Nihlus makes the wound deeper uncontrollably while Exile has potential to be full blown parasitic/symbiotic infection of the Force.
One correction: Visas Marr is not the last Miraluka. Katarr wasn't their homeworld. It was a miraluka colony. It did make them more rare and almost gone in that part of the galaxy though, as their population isn't large to begin with.
As soon as I heard you recommend stop watching and play the game if you haven't yet, i subscribed. Your love for the game and people experiencing it outweighs your desire for views on youtube, and passionate creators like you deserve support. Kotor 2 will likely always remain my favorite game of all time. Thank you for encouraging others to experience it.
This channel's ability to effortlessly switch between short, fun videos and longform deep-dives is incredible. So excited for more content from you guys, long and short!
2:00 - The Restored Content Mod is practically official game content now anyway; when the game was released on Steam they made a point to add Stream Workshop compatibility so the game could be modded easily, and the Switch port was *supposed* to get the Restored Content Mod as official DLC, though whether that plan is still happening is up in the air at this point.
Kreia didn't really kill the jedi masters-the Force did-she implanted the same thing that was sewering the exile from the force on to them-they had a Choice: to sewer their ties to the force and live or to keep the force and die-they choose the later.
KoTOR and KoTOR 2, is still one of the best storyline/decision based games I've ever played. I'm glad that many others have enjoyed these games as well. It brings a lot of missing points of view tat isnt normally seen in other Star Wars games or movies. Good work on your content, keep it up.
I agree. KOTOR2 is the most well written piece of Star Wars media...when it works. It might be the most unstable game I've ever played and since I'm playing it on the Xbox, there's no chance at downloading patch mods.
You’re the main Star Wars channel I watch, and I love your deep dives! I’d really love it if you went more in depth into how the true sith were foreshadowed by kotor, I’d also love to hear more about your take on the revanchists
I really enjoyed your video, as Kotor 2 is my favorite game of all time. One thing I'd say is that Kreia did not kill the former Jedi masters, rather she completely drained them of the force. They were alive, but the shock of losing the force was basically like losing all 5 senses, which turned them into empty husks unable to perceive anything.
This game was the first one I completed multiple times. I went through it so often, when I started a new game almost 14 years later, I remembered almost every outcome of decisions you can make
It truly is a testament to how amazing this game really is being that it was released in 2004 and it still being discussed to this very day. Phenomenal writing, phenomenal, storytelling, phenomenal characters, phenomenal plot, phenomenal music, and an overall phenomenal game. I played this game when it was first released when I was a kid and I had fun playing it. It’s much more interesting being an adult now (26 years old) looking back at the game, and seeing the deep subtexts and nuances of each individual character, and why they did what they did. Watching videos like this is somewhat therapeutic for me.
From what I am getting from what Kotor 1 & 2 has set up from dialogue and narrative set up the Kotor 3 Sith antagonists were supposed to be a truly terrifying dark faction. With Sith Lords more powerful then Darth Nihilus and to them Dark Side Wound in the Force nexuses like Malachor V were a common environment to them. So powerful to scare Revan and Malak into seeking the Star Forge. And with the vibe I am getting from what Kreia and Ajunta Pall say there could have been a far greater force or power behind this faction of megapowerful dark Sith. Kreia with her comments about something outside the galaxy that Revan saw. And Ajunta Pall he explains something out there which gave him and his fellow dark lords their power to rule the Ancient Sith. This gives me the idea that whoever or... whatever... the true antagonist Kotor 3 was intending was going to be greater then anything we saw before. Perhaps a primordial or even eldritch being. Something to threaten the entire galaxy and drive Revan into such fear of preparation against it to set out to find the Star Forge and convert the entire galaxy to becoming a dark side nation under his leadership. A force of nature worse then Nihilus yet not mindless or bound to a hunger. But has a drive for a era of chaos and war before going dormant until it's time comes again. Like the whole cosmic balance the Force demands which Kreia rebukes and hates. And the hidden true Sith revere it. Now that to me sounds like a great antagonist. Less like a person and more like a ancient evil which is above the Sith but unites even the most chaotic and deadly of Sith Lords under it's banner and doctrines like a synagogue. A power greater then Vitiate and would make even him submit to it's rule if he did exist in the similar conditions that he did in Swtor. Like Abeloth but different. "The Force betrays" “I am a timeless chorus, join your voice with mine and sing victory everlasting” - Gravemind
@@akale2620 "Do I take life or give it? Who is victim, and who is foe?" "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time... to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." "Listen, hypocrite who holds the key! Think on your past, and know." "With me dies the potential of a thousand million souls. Can you appreciate the tragedy, simpleton that you are? Your life is but an instant, a lonely flash. A ruse. And your... 'victory'... (laughs) Another stone upon the monument to the sins of shortsighted fools."
After so many years, through thick and thin, this is still my favorite piece of Star Wars content and favorite game overall. The world will never know what it is missing with this level of writing
Personally, I think the most amazing thing about this game is how the developers and head writer went about this story. In interviews, Chris Avellone admitted that he was never a fan of Star Wars before this game. Obsidian didn't even really want to make the game. They could've just slapped together something haphazard that didn't go against the status quo. A simple hero's journey. But they didn't. Instead, he and the team consumed every piece of Star Wars media they could get their hands on, doing their best to truly understand the world they were expected to create. And it shows in their handling of the game. With how rocky the development of the KOTOR remake has been, I say give it back to Obsidian. They've been dying for a chance to handle this tale again and finish it properly, as they wanted without all the pressure from the head honchos. This story is by far the best. It's my favorite game. And that's as is, as unfinished as it is (And no one can deny that it's unfinished, even with the Restored Content Mod, though that mod does definitely help smooth things out). Imagine how amazing it would've been had Obsidian been allowed more time with it? And I'd definitely love a longer video really digging into the meat of this game! It deserves the recognition and discussion!
Avellone was a fan of SW, but only up to ESB, after that his love for it waned. It was during his deep dive into the (then) EU that he rediscovered his love for the franchise.
How would they tell the full story when the guy who wrote it, Chris Avellone, was cancelled on the basis of false accusations and left Obsidian because he despises Obsidian ownership and how poorly they handle projects? The whole "evil publisher higher ups" thing isn't the problem, from Avellone's perspective. Its how Obsidian used to be run while he was there. There's an argument to be made that most of the incredibly talented people at Obsidian from that era are gone. Theyve got some new people like Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky, but its my understanding that everyone that worked on KotOR 2 is either gone or basically working in a sinecure, living off the business they built.
As if I couldn’t love this game even more. I’ve often praised this game for how it tackles Kreia’s unique philosophy but never really looked at home it also provides an opposite. Furthermore I had not considered the more practical aspects such as war, and trauma. Amazing Video
another great thing to come from these games was Jedi Battle Meditation - a 'seer' class Jedi using the force to harmonize the space fleet - the opposite of Emperor Palpatine who used the dark side to control his battle fleet (i think that was in the Timothy Zahn books) which fell apart when his mortal body was destroyed by Vader.
This is how I got into Star Wars lore. I played this game for hours, and prior to that I used to not like Star Wars very much. This is the game that showed me how deep the lore went.
The story of KOTOR 2 really went over my head on my first playthrough of the game so this video was very useful in helping me finding further enjoyment in this Obsidian classic. I Still don't understand the beginning of the game whatsoever, but ultimately it doesn't matter too much. Very nice video
For the love of anything left sacred in the SW universe, we need a good series or movies that can cover this time period. Sorry for the barrage of posts. I have been writing a KOTOR based Star Wars D20 table top game that starts 5 years after KOTOR 2 ends. I have been devouring Old Republic lore like crazy and this channel has been instrumental in getting me back into it. Fantastic videos and commentary. Keep on slaying it.
The best way to bring these stories is to canon is with modern remakes of the games. An eight episode Disney+ series or even a trilogy would cut a lot of the story and would not be the same.
@@MJJFilms I disagree on remakes, just re-release them in 1920x1080 with upscaled textures, Obsidian basically fixed KOTOR 2 for the steam release and even switched it to 64-bit.
this is the best video Ive heard explainging KOTOR II. its not a 3 hour long video that over complicates basic star wars concepts but it also doesnt skip anything too important.
I can't believe people are still making videos on this game. I remember first playing it at an age where I barely understood how to play the game, I hardly understood what was going on but the image of the ebon hawk flying into the distance at the end stuck with me forever.
I always thought the characters is what made the story of KOTOR2 so good, but as time went out it's story really has been appreciated, examined and explained very well. The approach they took with this game was very underrated
(And we're back in this.) TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance, the Dark Forces Saga, and Republic Commando are still king/queen in my eyes though. Also, Episode I: Racer.
Kreia has such understandable motivations, she reached the height of both jedi and sith, and realized the force itself dictates lives and free will is false. So she wants to kill the force.
The free will aside, galaxy and non force sensitives are constant collateral damage to Sith and Jedi offing each other because their power sugar daddy is incapable of balancing act other then mutal self destruction of its zealot followers. This good as any reason to hate the Force.
I am an original fan of KOTOR and KOTOR 2 from back when they came out. I was obsessed back in the early/mid ‘00s. And I always felt more drawn to KOTOR 2 (even without the content restoration mod since I had it on Xbox - though I’ve grown very familiar with the missing pieces). For years, people would say KOTOR was the masterpiece and KOTOR 2 was the incomplete but still pretty good sequel. I’m so glad that there’s been a bit of a realization, particularly lately, of just how truly amazing KOTOR 2 is in all the things it actually does and tries and the story it chooses to tell and how. How KOTOR is a good, complete game, but KOTOR 2 is a truly innovative and daring game. Plus, I could wield a silver lightsaber, which is pretty friggin dope.
I played this game for the first time recently, absolutely amazing combination of atmospheric storytelling with personal interactions. I'd love to see a Knights of the Old Republic movie series made one day.
KOTOR 2 gave us a better depiction of the Jedi's self-righteousness and blinding arrogance than the entire prequel trilogy. That was one of the key plot points from the movies that Lucas handled too clumsily and ineffectively. Jedi pride, dogma, hypocrisy, efforts to avoid conflict in the face of an antagonizing force, and their unwillingness to do any introspection or make reforms all caused their own demise and trillions of deaths. That, along with the depiction of the aftermath of 3 catastrophic wars and how complex the morality and characters are, really sealed the deal for how much I loved KOTOR 2 above any other Star Wars story outside of the original trilogy. It gave us a new, more nuanced perspective on the cost of war and the light vs dark relationship.
Another great video, my friend. I watch these to occupy my time and broaden my knowledge of the Star Wars Universe, and to fall asleep at night. They are great for both.
its great that Kreia thinks the Force itself has a 'plan' for things - and as such she wants to wage war on God. George Lucas wanted to explore this with his Whills of the Force in the sequel trilogy. Interestingly, Stargate SG1 last few seasons dealt with the idea of 'force ghosts' and how much effect they are allowed on the mortal realm - far better than anything Star Wars has ever done.
I agree completely! Everyone trashed this game when it came out. But the story was so intricate and intriguing. I so wish that the new movies had covered this era.
Thank you for the interesting video. I have, however, many reservations about the section on Chodo Habat. Essentially, the way you present that particular conflict misses both Kreia's actual point and the reason why there is a conflict between Habat's position and Kreia's. This missing the point is enshrined in your own admission that Habat's point is 'simple'. If Habat's point were so simple and unambiguous, this would not only make Kreia's resistance against it futile (as you try to pass it off). It would also dismantle the very narrative of the game. Habat's point would be well received if all Kreia's reflection amounted to were to strike a balance between the dogmatist dickishness of the Jedi Council, and the cartoonish evil/lust for power of the Sith creed, by giving into the ways of both on an alternate basis. If that were the case, Habat's position would be arguably the more sensible one (and the game would be over, thematically at least). But Kreia's viewpoint goes beyond the mere rejection of Jedi/Sith distortions and shows that Habat's position is itself limited, finite, approaching the issue only from a particular standpoint while surreptitiously raising it to the correct position. Kreia's stance is directed against the force itself. There is a longstanding conception of viewing Kreia's philosophy as essentially Nietzschean. Leaving aside matters of interpretation on Nietzsche's philosophy itself (and especially on his posthumous work Die Wille zur Macht), some traits of Kreia's position appear undoubtedly Nietzschean. In particular, the rejection of dependence on others and the idea that the only valuable strength is the one the agent produces by itself. However, there is a much wider point in Kreia's philosophy that is often neglected and frequently only tangentially expressed. Kreia's stance endorses an almost Kantian defense of the idea and value of rational autonomy. This is the original sin of the force. The force, its existence with its seemingly unstoppable will, is the ultimate affront to the rational autonomy of the subject. Every living creature becomes a mere tool, a simple expendable pawn to be used by the force and its inscrutable biddings. When Kant writes his second critique, the general position in western philosophy on the topic of free will (and on theodicy, the question of reconciling the benevolence of God and the existence of evil) was the Leibniz-Wolff perspective of pre-established harmony. What happens in the world and what human beings do in the world is so according to God's plan. However, this completely undercuts the idea that the human being is a rational, autonomous creature. There is nothing rational nor autonomous in behaving in accordance with what is essentially an external constraint, an authority that cannot even be recognized as such by the subject because its rationale is completely transcendent to the actual world. This is what the force is for Kreia. To be open to the force means the complete rejection and abandonment not only of freedom but of reason, of moral worth. Now what one does is nothing but a minimal expendable cog in the greater architecture of what the force wills. There is no space to be a man, a woman, or an agent here because what one does and what is affected by one's actions are always already beyond the possibility of rational evaluation. This is also where the Nietzschean interpretation of Kreia's philosophy shows its weakness. A Nietzschean perspective, notwithstanding its talk about authenticity or freedom, wouldn't see the force understood this way as something to be resisted or fought. The admittedly sometimes overblown irrationalism of Nietzschean philosophy would view the force as the destiny (the Shicksal, a concept extremely important in the Lebensphilosophie of 1920s Germany that Nietzsche influenced) that awaits those who are worthy of it. To a Nietzschean, it doesn't ultimately matter if there is something transcendent that cannot be rationally comprehended and that undermines rational autonomy (the sometimes forgotten coda to 'God is dead' is 'and you have killed him') as long as this entity establishes a distinction in the worthiness of the subjects under its control which provides the significativity of values in the world. This is where your analysis also reveals itself as simplistic. Kreia's stance is not trivially individualistic as you claim it to be. She would remain a Sith if that were the case, and she'd need much less rationalization than what she provides in the game. The mistake you and many others make in reading the philosophy of Kreia is to conflate individualism and autonomy. this ends up painting her as a kind of Ayn Rand figur more than anything, something she's clearly not (Rand loathed Kant's concept of autonomy, because it carries with it an entitlement to responsibility. And this is the key of Kreia's position: owning up to one's own choices as rational autonomous commitments, not instead as something that can be explained away by external forces acting on the subject). If Kreia were simply a Nietzschean or a Randian, she would stop at the rejection of jedi and sith sects. But no, she rejects the force altogether. And this is why Habat's position is something she rejects as well. What does it mean to heal the planet through the force if this healing also means opening Telos again to that same endless Spiel that brought it to ruins in the first place? If Telos is brought back in contact with the force, the kind of healing it and its inhabitants achieve will be swept away, and with it its significance, at the next turn of events that the endless carousel of the force requires. The only real, factual healing that can be achieved is not by the mere semblance of a temporary improvement brought about by that thing that doomed Telos in the first place. The only real healing that can be achieved is via the rejection of the terms and conditions of the force's game. But Habat cannot understand this, because he approaches the situation as if it were a mere conflict of opposites in a neutral setting. Kreia's position sees through Habat's simple alternative because its simplicity reveals nothing more than a mystification of what's at stake. Of course, in the game, and at that point of the game, this cannot be understood by the player, nor spelled out by Kreia adequately, simply because it is too early for both the Exile and the player. Both the Exile and the player think at this point that the issue at hand is again a new iteration of the light/dark conflict (and it is also presented in this way, with the antagonist played by Czerka at this point). The Exile still thinks her being severed by the force was a punishment by the (light) Jedi Council for other dark side choices. The game instead shows that the whole setting where these conflicts arise is the root of all the suffering endured by the galaxy. There can be no case for the light in KOTOR II, because the light cannot win its case on the terms of the force. On a side note, Kreia's perspective becomes clearer when one keeps in mind that Kreia is essentially Chris Avellone's mouthpiece in the game. Avellone, before becoming lead designer of KOTOR II, didn't really like star wars, and especially rejected the received conception of the force as somehow neutral, disinterested, or worse of all, supposedly trying to strive for a balance that at the same time mysteriously aimed at eliminating completely one of its counterweights. Kreia is Avellone's way of achieving a capacity for self-reflection of star wars on itself. And in essence, Kreia is never proved wrong in the game. The only problem is that the final act of the game makes it look like she's defeated because, after the encounter with the masters on Dantooine, the game loses its plot and fails to make its point. Essentially this is because the game needed a conclusion, and it must be a conclusion that remains within the boundaries of Star Wars. How could have the game progressed once Kreia's lesson had been accepted? The only possible way would have been for the Exile to go into exile again and renounce the game of the force on her own terms. But this does make for an anticlimactic ending. However, the fact that this would have been a more sensible way of ending Kotor II's story can also be seen in the fact that until almost before the game was ready, Atris was planned to be Darth Traya, and not Kreia. Atris would have revealed how her dogmatic adherence to the jedi order was nothing else than the corruption and treachery bred by the sith teachings. However, once Atris is vanquished, there would be no way to move the story further: how can the jedi order be rebuilt? It cannot; it has to be abandoned. Why should the Exile go find and help Revan against the True Sith? the attempt is nothing else than an additional futile move in a game that needs to be abandoned. In fact, it would undercut one of the main narrative plots of the game, the fact that Revan had not simply fallen to the dark side but had recognized a greater peril that could only be met by going beyond jedi teachings. Remember, it is this revelation that gifted us the character Revan as we know and appreciate now, the fallen hero, a complex character that allowed us to revisit the story-line of the first game in a different light. Before this, Revan's story, while entertaining, was not much different than many other Fall/Redemption story-line that we see in star wars (somebody said that Kotor I's storyline had been prequelified, and the old republic era had already a redemption story in Ulic Qel-Droma). By destroying the grip of the force on the Star Wars universe, even Revan's crusade becomes a mere accident, something eliminable that will run its course according to the will of the force.
Phenomenal analysis! I really appreciated how you showed how the game's events counter Kreia's perspective on the Force. Your discussion about Force bonds and connection being true power reminds me of the abilities that Luke and Mara discover together in Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future novel. KOTOR 2 is brilliant, and I think you did a great job of showing how the story's dialogue tells you one thing through Kreia, but its actions and events tell you another.
Omg I died when you said 12 characters and then showed the disciple. I've literally beaten this game like 7 times. I've never gotten him... I had no idea that was a thing
@@akale2620 honestly, I just prefer the Handmaiden as a companion. I find her more compelling. Not knocking the Disciple, he’s great, I’ve played a couple of playthroughs with him, but whenever I do I find myself missing the Handmaiden more than I find myself missing the Disciple in the reverse situation.
If they had gotten the time they really needed to develop this game I think it without question would’ve gone down as one of the greatest games of all time. There was just so many things they wanted to do that would’ve set the game so far ahead of it’s predecessor, but they just didn’t have time to finish it all. Thankfully the restored content mod does help with that like you mentioned, but it’s still not all of what they wanted to do on the game. I really hope one day the kotor remakes end up coming through because. Imagine playing the story of those games, but with the gameplay of like Fallen Order
Big take, calling this the best story ever. But considering it's a story set during the darkest time in Jedi history until The Great Jedi Purge, you play as a Jedi Exile who lost their connection to the force, and are combating the three strongest Sith in history, it's easy to see why this story is the best. And that's before taking into consideration everything else about the story aswell.
@El Father Nihilus was tied to both Malacor V and the Force. Meetra Surik was only able to defeat him because she was a wound in the force, an anti-force if you will. But that was temporary. The destruction of Malacor V was his ultimate end. Those three aren't threats to him, just buffets.
@@inductivegrunt94 No you are wrong, just because Meetra could defeat him just for been a wound in the force dosen’t mean that someone who isn’t could not too, especially someone like Dark empire Sidious who can destroy planets or entire fleets with force storms while been sit in his throne on the other side of the galaxy .
@El Father What part of Nihilus' backstory do you not understand? Nihilus feeds off of the living force, thus someone like Sidious would be drained by just proximity. Look him up before you say Darth Sidious can overcome the literal force eater. And calling me wrong invalidates your argument since you say you're right based on your opinion. Look up the story of Nihilus before you make a fool out of yourself like you just did now.
Thank you for correctly understanding the plot and what Kreia is all about. There are some multi hour videos out there (you know the one) and many people that uncritically accept everything Kreia says at face value, even though she's an obvious liar, hypocrite, and master manipulator. Her might makes right ideas are reprehensible in both Star Wars and real life, and it's bizarre to see so many people buy in to nazi-like ubermensch ideology as long as it's framed in terms of "both sides are wrong" nonsense and fantasy terms.
Your example of the Ithorians is debatable at best. Kreia IS correct about them in numerous regards - First that they DO want to use the Exile to advance their plans for Telos, second that they ARE quite incompetent and naive, with them begging the Exile to come back and save them from the mercs after their deal is concluded, and third that they're making very uncertain promises of rewards which in essence the Exile can already achieve on their own. You say that it's indisputable that reconnecting Telos to the Force is restoring it to life and that it's growth isn't coming at the expenses of others - I'd counter that the billions of credits the Republic have sunk into the project and the countless species the Ithorians are harvesting from other planets is indeed quite the cost. The Ithorians accuse Czerka of denigrating their restoration efforts, but we see in the restoration zone that when the Ithorians' constant upkeep is removed, the ecology that they've designed collapses in on itself. The truth is that the Ithorians may simply be idealists badly running a complicated project, and it only stays afloat due to the Republic channeling so many resources into it. And as to your main point, that the game is about healing wounds and bringing people together, I disagree to a point. The Exile's trauma made them more full and complete as a person. Their wound is the only thing that allows them to defeat Nihilus. All of your Jedi companions "healed" through reconnecting to the Force, joined together, still can't defeat Kreia, only the Exile alone can. In her final dialogs, Kreia outlines through her visions of the future how, even though there are temporary victories and some people will regain hope for a while, all the wounds and problems afflicting the galaxy never really go away, they just continue to fester for millennia as people forget their problems that you've solved for them. This is most pointed with the Republic, as she defines the entire conflict as one in which it needs to define itself to truly overcome and evolve into something greater - Instead the Exile fixes their issues, and they go on to die a millennia-long rotting death. Frankly, the best evidence against a Lightside interpretation of the themes is what actually follows the canon Lightside story; everything just devolves back into banality, back into the endless cycle that Kreia hated so much. The Exile reconnects with the light, becomes an incredibly boring character, and is subsumed into the Force as a plot-ghost. The Jedi and Sith continue to war against each other for literally thousands of years. Everything continues on in adherence to the will of the Force, and nobody is free. Kotor 2 is essentially Obsidian dissecting Star Wars and admitting that the setting is rote and formulaic. It's the best Star Wats story because it actually voices that criticism in a thoughtful way, and it will remain the best because the nature of the franchise means that it's impossible for anybody to actually address those ideas and follow through to do something completely new. The closest anybody else has ever come was probably what the writers were trying to do with Jacen at the end of the New Jedi Order series, but then the word literally came down from the authorities at Lucasarts to cut it out and just make him another Sith Lord.
Drew Karpyshyn, the writer who wrote the first two Mass Effect games before abandoning the series, also wrote KOTOR 1, which he also abandoned. His abdication opened the way for the KOTOR 2 team to create the masterpiece storyline of Kreia and The Exile. You are correct--it is the best SW narrative ever written. Because Kreia says plainly that Revan was superseded by The Exile in power and importance, Karpyshyn, in a fit of jealousy, jockeyed into position as the lead writer of SWTOR, and used that position to completely undermine and unravel the story created by KOTOR 2. In my opinion, Drew Karpyshyn is the equivalent of D&D (GoT) and Kathleen Kennedy and her Sith minions in terms of abusing the writing position to destroy a spectacular and higher quality franchise concept.
They did The Exile dirty in the book and in the MMO. However, KoToR II did Darth Malak dirty as well. Not as bad as The Exile got, but nevertheless done dirty.
@@vehnashur2771 How was Darth Malak done dirty? I only remember a few mentions. They show a dream version in the Korriban caves where he recruits Jedi. Revan was even cooler in 2 than 1. Maybe that makes Malak less important by comparison? I agree the exile got shafted after 2.
I've played an conquered vast majority of these at one point an time too. Much agree games like KOTOR are inspirations for other now legendarily great games like the Mass Effect franchise.. which is probably where they got the ideas from since they basically followed the formulas that gave rise to this kinda genera. It was great in ways we rarely seen since this. Especially with their being SO much you could do in either of the KOTOR games
All other Star Wars games were spoiled for me by KOTOR2, the first truly adult Star Wars script and story. Which is what made the clunky broken last 1/4 of the game such a gut wrenching disappointment and why I followed the KOTOR2 Restoration Mod project for 6 years before giving up then a few years later joyfully but not quite as much as I hoped I played the restored version that at least made sense of the droid factory and sith academy. This game was astounding and I salute you for giving it its pride of place; and I absolutely loved KOTOR (but main story was derivative and predictable) and Dark Forces III/Jedi Knight II: Jedi Exile (best lightsaber combat ever).
I've vaguely thought about making a video about this game, but you guys already said everything I would have wanted to say. Brilliant video! Something I observed that a lot of people are forgetting about Kreia's philosophy is that she's the *main antagonist* . As every *great* philosophical antagonist in media like Thanos, Killmonger, or multiple iterations of the Joker have done, of course Kreia has great points regarding Sith and Jedi, but just like those other villains, she was designed to ideologically fight you at the climax of both Light and Dark Side runs. And what makes the Light Side story so powerful is that with every "Influence Lost: Kreia" that you're *supposed* to be getting, you're proving her wrong, as you so eloquently put it with Chodo Habat's philosophy and the Khoonda Militia, Onderon Soldiers, *and* the Republic Fleet appearing in the penultimate battle. I'd argue stopping Atris from following Kreia's path also proves that mercy is a strength. What makes the final battle at Trayus Core a little anti-climactic, then, is the lack of a complete rebuttal either through words or actions, that tests or cements the main argument of the game that our bonds, attachments, unity, and loyalty all make us *stronger*, not weaker. However, the game still echoes with that philosophy even at the end symbolically.
There was a conversation between Krea and Atris where Atris had as much hatred for the force as Krea did, only masked as attempting to save the force and restore it. The Atris story might be one worth diving into deeper as she is wounded as well.
this was a great little run down, still my favourite story and game. this game made me love star wars and think of it so much deeper and even got my perspectives towards life twisted up haha
This is also why kreia is my favorite Star Wars character by a long shot. If there ever was a “grey” Jedi it would be her. She understood that light and dark are just 2 sides of the same coin. 2 halves of the whole picture. Such an interesting character and some incredible writing!
No, Kreia is a Sith and spews bullshit to manipulate people. She is blaming the force as an excuse to avoid accountability for creating Nihilus and causing the issue to begin with. Grey Jedi is an oxymoron.
@@SkintSNIPER262 she didn't create nihilus tho, the echos from the mass hsadow generator did and she found him later.... and if she was a sith then why would she attempt to destroy the very thing that gives her power. Seems to me u didn't understand the game
@@SkintSNIPER262 Kreia did not creat Nihlus (worst she did was train him because she hoped he could become what Exile was in the end) nor does she spews bs. She is Machiavellian but completely understandable in her motives. She blames Force for making galaxy playground for two factions of its extremists and "balancing" this never ending war through regular culling of both sides while non force sensitives are collateral. In essence Force as presented in TSL "it's like hand of God hovering above" robbing life of its free will. In EU (which Kotor 1 and 2 are part of) there is just Force and light/dark side are extremes. When Luke was asked what techniques lead to dark side he said "All of them". To quota Kreia herself: "You learned nothing!". Go play the game again, don't skip dialogues this time tho.
@@Nobody32990 Training is helping to create someone lol. The Force did not make the 2 factions, force sensitive people made it themselves because some fell to the darkside. It's not 2 sides and then there's the force. The Light IS the force. And the darkside is a perversion of the force. And this perversion is abuse and selfish use of the force, that threw it out of balance. It seems the KOTOR devs didn't have a full understanding of Lucas' universe. Another example is how Revan and Malak got corrupted by the Star Forge but for some reason wasn't corrupted by the darkside.... And the force set things straight when it created Anakin to purge the deskside users, thus bringing balance back.
Kreia is such a great character, and her VA is even more amazing. She has so many great lines, read perfectly, I couldn't choose just one line, but any way "apathy is death".
I do like how at the beginning of kotor 2 you can choose what happened in the first game through a conversation with atton and I especially like how this conversation does not break the fourth wall like the endar spire did in kotor 1.
When I was a kid, I bought KOTOR and KOTOR 2 for my Xbox. KOTOR disc didn't work, so I started with 2. I was 9 or 10, and was having a blast, but didn't understand a lot of it. So when I got a replacement KOTOR, I ended up liking it a lot more because it was an epic and more familiar Star Wars story. Years later, my friend who is far more intelligent than me was over and helped me understand it all better. Long story short, as a kid, the KOTOR games made my infatuation with Star Wars a passion. Between realizing the back stories of my companions, the new worlds, figuring out influence, helping or harming those around me. The game looks rough now, but hearing a character explain something or themselves always got my complete unbroken attention. Geetsly, this is a love letter to KOTOR, and I hope those who look to make more media for Star Wars see this and know what makes KOTOR 2 special.
There’s something about KOTOR 1 & 2 that for me carry a lot of deep memories from a young age of gaming. I can’t put my finger on it, but it goes farther than just nostalgia, and anytime I fire either game back up it gives me a feeling unlike any other game or movie I’ve ever seen
Why do people say that things were ahead of their time? It is simply wrong. The game was at the very right time. It is only that afterwards there weren't better things. It is like saying that LOTR was ahead of its time just because Rings of Power sucked and weren't better. LOTR was not ahead, it was right at its time.
KOTOR 2 is one of my favorite games ever. I love the first KOTOR just as much, but KOTOR 2 turned everything up a notch. I still remember my first playthrough. I couldn't stop playing the game for days because I just had to see more and more of the story. What I really loved was how it was centered around the Sith Triumvirate which are still 3 of the coolest Sith lords ever designed in Star Wars. The whole idea of these Sith Lords all being wounds in the Force was awesome. Also, you're character literally feels like a Sith Lord, or a Jedi Master towards the end of the game, and seeing how it affects your crew makes it all the more impactful. I also love the graphics in the game, and the improvement in the battle animations as you become more skilled in your journey. KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 are the greatest Star Wars games ever conceived hands down. Nothing comes close, and that means a lot because there are a lot of awesome Star Wars games.
![Bed, Bath, & Beyond! (....good & evil) | Beyond Good & Evil | [December 11, 2024]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zRem2FM4opM/mqdefault.jpg)
Kreias voice actor also deserves a lot of credit. Even though its "just a game" she gives the character enough gravitas to convey her ideas in earnest.
Sara Kestelman. She was absolutely phenomenal.
I could listen to her read a phone book
She's the Raul Julia of Bioware.
So true! Her reading of that script was so compelling. I think that was truly the heart of the story.
Oh yeah, I mean she carried the game to the end. And she was all we got for the ending and ... it was good enough for me. Made me play the hell out of SWTOR. lol
Kotor 2 was always my favorite not because of the gameplay but because it’s story always encouraged me to think deeper and more critically than any other game and that was something I enjoyed especially when the conclusions I came to applied to me personally in some way that made me a better person as a whole. It’s not often that video games make someone a better person but Kotor 2 made me better at a time when I needed to improve and for that it will be my favorite game for all time
tbh I'm hoping the massive amounts of "DaS got me over depression" vids might pave the way for "KotOR got me into Phi/Theo" vids
@@KnjazNazrath What's DaS?
@@ltb1345 Dark Souls
Totally
In a video game, the gameplay is top priority
When it comes to Kreia's philosophy, I feel freedom was ultimately her final goal. She was a broken woman who felt her dependency on the power of the Force had robbed her of her life and freedom. She is right for advocating the strength that comes from within, to denounce the dogmatism of the Jedi and the pointless thirst for power of the Sith. Her extreme individualism is where she becomes flawed... She was a very lonely person, and in a sense it gave her strength but also made her quite bitter. She needed, much like the companions of the exile, to heal herself. But she couldn't let people in because she was maybe afraid... I feel this is part of why Kreia is so well liked by people. She is relatable on a visceral level. The desire for freedom and independence, the hidden hurt and the fear of letting people in for it could result in further pain. The bitterness and feeling your life wasn't your own, the will to try and get it back yet you cannot escape the past.
Many of us carry this kind of pain and we all face it in different ways. Kreia's path is one followed by many, consciously or not. Fewer follow the path of the Exile. Healing is hard and painful, letting people in is terrifying... In the end, I think what matters is the will to try and heal, to confront the demons and darkness within, whichever path we chose to follow.
Underrated comment.
Incredible analysis
This is the best comment I have ever seen on a star wars topic. Incredible insight.
She is the Lord of Betrayal. She betrays everyone, as the story goes on; including herself.
Well said, I felt very similarly about her when I played through. And I always related heavily with her. I've always rejected the black and white musings of society. I feel that balance usually lies in between the two extremes. And in that avoidance of conforming, we tend to find our genuine self somewhere in the middle. However, similar to kreia's loneliness, I look around and I see people in their black and white extremes finding such solace in each other. Meanwhile I'm just drifting out in the nether between them, with no one to truly relate to.
.
I understand why people conform to black and white extremes, we are social creatures after all. And those beliefs create a sense of brotherhood/sisterhood between folks. But it's just never been for me. I prefer freedom, even if it is at the cost of human connection.
This game is *the* reason I like Star Wars in the first place. It gives the universe an incredible richness of depth and life which I haven’t seen equaled in any other Star Wars property. Also making Kreia angry is funny.
You should read the darth bane trilogy it’s amazing! Even listening to the audiobook, that trilogy really adds some depth to the sith. But yeah I need to play kotor 2
@@CenturianEagle Darth Bane trilogy and KOTOR are why I am still invested in star wars. SWTOR was great in the beginning.
I’m just waiting for the day I finally get a KOTOR live action that isn’t dogsh!t.
Clone wars is great too.
@@FormerGovernmentHuman clone wars and rebels were both good. I couldn’t do resistance though, but yeah I really liked rebels just as much as I liked the clone wars. But yeah the bane trilogy is great, imagine that was a show! Live action or even cgi at this point, but that story is great I think it would give a lot to build on to do a kotor one after, but I know I’m probably alone in wishing for a bane show over a kotor show. I just think it would be so cool to see the training stuff and like how they undermine each other and things like that, the books were written damn well
Well said this is Star Wars to me, the movies can only hop to touch a fraction of this well spring
agreed it really adds nuance and depth to the galaxy. Also yeah trolling kreia is hilarious!
Kreia is the best possible antagonist for a Star Wars story. A philosophical anti-Jedi that wants the death of the Force because it has a will that it imposes on the galaxy. It's thematically perfect, the apex of Sith desire for freedom tempered with actual wisdom.
Yes, this is the kind of villain a good Star Wars story deserves
I am glad you can see her as the villain. I hear so many people try to defend Kreia as being correct and some sort of “grey Jedi” even though grey Jedi don’t exist and are oxymorons. You either serve the force “light” or serve your own selfish desires for personal power and gain “dark side”. But I digress, Kreia is a Sith Lord and evil from the very beginning but just like Palpatine in the prequels she is a master manipulator from start to finish and she never helps anyone, least of all the player, she only manipulates and twists people to become evil very slowly over time. You bring up a great point too, she wants the exile to kill the force because the will of the force is for everyone to do good and help others which completely goes against everything she wants. It’s essentially the same mindset of a suicide bomber, such radial devotion and hate for something preventing what she wants she is willing to kill what prevents her from achieving her desires even if it means killing herself too
@@roninjedi2494 THANK YOU. So many people seem to forget that each of the Sith triumvirate were avatars of a specific trait, Keria’s being betray. Aka everything out her mouth is pure bullshit.
Nor do they acknowledge she is blaming the force as excuse to avoid accountability for creating Nihilus and causing the issue to begin with.
@@roninjedi2494 What she wanted would've caused a genocide unrivaled by any Star Wars villain ever, and I mean a body count potentially in the thousands or trillions if not more. While her intentions were understandable and the force would surely rack up more deaths over time, there's no excuse for an atrocity on such an unimaginable scale. Sure the force may "Want" sentients to do good, yet its willing to repeat a destructive cycle ad nauseum until it gets its way, resulting the the deaths of so many who don't deserve it. I see the force as a body, and a single dark side user like a disease, so it'll do anything to purge it. To me, Kreia is a villain, but so is, to some extent, The Force, albeit unwittingly. Kreia seeks genocide to impose her own beliefs on the galqaxy, and the force uses genocide in an attempt to, if only for a moment, regain its so called "balance". The Force MUST die if free the galaxy is ever to be truly free from this endless cycle, but not at Kreia's price.
(Plus even without The Force, sentients will take any excuse to kill the shit out of eachother anyway, The Force is just another contributor to it in that galaxy)
@@KainZeuxis I suppose if you want to get technical, Revan created Nihilus since it was the destruction of Malachor and surviving it that turned Nihilus into what he is and saw him discover how to feed on others to such an extreme dagree, but Kreia did play a part in teaching him how to control and focus his hunger. Though Nihilus was gonna be a peril to the galaxy with or without Kreia's meddling. There is a theory that Revan actually passed through the Trayus academy to meet with Kreia again before going into the unknown, and that it was Revan who manipulated Sion and Nihilus to betray and kill Kreia because he thought her goal of killing the force was utter madness (Only she somehow survived the attempt)
Interestingly, Chris Avallone (the game's director) didn't like Star Wars at the time as there were elements within it he was not fond of. However, he approached it in a great way. He didn't do as others do, taken it as an opportunity to trash what they don't like or turn it into something else, cutting it off from what it was and alienating the fans. He put everything that should be in a Star Wars game into Kotor 2, and through all these things that made Star Wars so great, used it to show us what he finds flawed about it. He gave us exactly what we want, but showed us something we hadn't seen or thought of before. People that can do that are few.
Very true. When developing KOTOR 2, Chris Avellone took it upon himself to read every Star Wars book, watch all the movies and TV shows (up to that point including the Holiday Special) and really immerse himself in the Galaxy Far Far Away. What we got in KOTOR 2 was the byproduct of all that hard work and investment.
Wish Disney would take notes.
@@Torain7 and POS Rian Johnson
SWJKA and KOTOR 2 made me realize I had no choice but to keep star wars #1 in my heart. Honestly miss their aesthetics, atmosphere, settings -- hell I miss all of it.
SWJKA!!!! I Still play it on PS4 from time to time with the bois
It’s important to note that the lead developer of Knights of the Old Republic II was Chris Avellone, the man who wrote for Jedi: Fallen Order and was responsible for developing games like Fallout 2, the undeveloped Black Isle Fallout 3 (Van Buren), and New Vegas.
His writing has always been top-tier.
Yeah and I think he worked on Titanfall 2. However I will say I didn't enjoy fallen order which disappointed me seeing who was working on it
From what I understand he had very little creative influence on Fallen Order, he was on the team, but he wasn't the lead guy.
Fallen Order wasn't nearly as well written. I mostly liked it for the gameplay.
So you're saying his blade ain't as sharp anymore
@@panamajack5972, no, more like “no one appreciates creativity anymore.”
Imagine how much better this already great game could have been had they had time to finish it
they tried to finish it with the restored content mod. I wish they'd been able to finish it and we got obsidian kotor 3 as well
@@aamirrazak3467 Yes. Unfortunately TOR is written for a different era of gaming audience.
@@Th0ughtf0rce yeah and I felt it was a poor continuation of Revan and the exiles stories
@@aamirrazak3467 it’s alright. It’s a continuation of KOTOR 1 which was still a good game, but it came nowhere near the levels of amazing that KOTOR 2 achieved
right? kotor 1 had 5 years of development time, kotor 2 had 10 months. imagine if it had even just gotten 2 full years...
There is a rare scene in which Kreia praises a light side action, because you encourage another to help others in turn. Because she acknowledges that you strengthened both of them.
She also praises you during dialogue on Korriban, when you affirm potential for redemption of Sith.
@@Nobody32990 I just looked it up, she doesn't praise you for that, she think that someone like that doesn't deserve redemption.
But, she respect your opinion, and you don't lost any influence on her (unlike many other things she disagree with).
I played the retail copy of this game when I was young. It came straight out of the box so didn't have any of the restored content, and I was still too youthfully ignorant to fully understand some of the themes; Kreia's nietzschian outlook on the force, the nuance lacking in the classic good vs. evil tales we see in traditional SW stories. But even so, I still found it to be a masterpiece that left a huge impression on me. It continues to be refreshing for me to see so many others singing its praises to this day, because this game definitely deserves it.
I always say that this game is a master class in storytelling and is the proper way to tell a Last Jedi style story.
But instead we got Snoke and Rose.
@@arsenal-slr9552 thats because rian was way too busy focusing on the artisitic side of star wars in a way that made people angry. He is such a nasty person ngl
😢Nl III
@@arsenal-slr9552
I love how the game nails its atmosphere down perfectly. You can never escape the feeling that there's some sort of danger stalking you in the shadows of the Galaxy. You actually feel hunted throughout most of the game, until you and your companions decide to face the Sith on Telos.
Absolutely one of the greatest scripts for a story, in general, ever.
Bao Dur and Kreia just steal every scene they are in.
I love this video. Great work.
Bao Dur is a critically underrated character. The voice actor is incredible. His and your character’s story are so tied together with the trauma of Malachor. Light or Dark side whichever way you take him fits so well given that connection.
Bao Dur gets complaints from some players that he's boring. But he's not. The voice actor was great in showing just how broken Bao Dur was in what he did -- Creating the Mass Shadow Generator that was responsible for killing millions and destroying an entire planet. He was shattered by the whole thing, beaten and broken down, still carrying the weight from what happened a decade later. You may sound like that yourself if you went through all of that. I also enjoyed the conversations with him, and felt bad when he had to give his little droid buddy the suicide mission.
Kreia.... I'd have to say she's _the_ best overall character in any Star Wars media. One of the best-written, and best portrayed. Sarah Kestelman was the perfect fit for voicing Kreia. Many of the things she spoke about The Force was something I thought of through the years of my love for Star Wars. It was a master class in how to write a character. We need more like Kreia in games.... not the actual character, just that well-written.
Bao Dur is the ASMR King and an excellent stand in for anyone who created something with less than noble intentions but then had to watch as that thing became more terrible than he could possibly imagine. I’m reminded of the Winchester rifle or fertilizer: powerful things that seemed necessary and became deadly very quickly.
And visas mare
I was basically raised on this game. When I was 7, my uncle bought my brother and I a game each: He bought me Sonic Heroes and my brother KOTOR 2.
I soon became bored of Sonic (cos the last Emerald is damn impossible to get) and jumped into KOTOR. I initially found Kreia to be an irritating old crone, constantly yelling at me for helping people. But soon I started listening to her words and I soon understood what she was trying to teach me. Always look at the consequences of your actions, whether you mean good or ill. Work hard to better yourself, don't accept shortcuts offered by others. But most importantly, always be open to new ideas and opinions but always test to ensure they are valid and true.
Kreia was one of my mentors (the other being Iroh). It is from them I am the person I am today.
Sonic Heroes was a classic! Glad to see there are others out there who remember it
Goated childhood. Some of my favorite games.
A video game character was your mentor? Lmaoo thats kinda sad and weird
@@Rinzler555 People find comfort and guidance in fiction, when good real life role models are missing or lacking. If he has found success in his life and has learned and practiced valuable life lessons, it doesn't matter from who they got them from, whether a family member or a video game/book/movie character. My inspiration and mentor figure is Rocky Balboa and I have no shame in that, for that character motivates and pushes me daily to become a stronger and better person. Through Kreia, I became familiar with Nietzsche's work and allowed me to learn much. So please, do not mock one for finding peace in somebody else's work, it doesn't matter if it's a painting, a book or a game character.
@@Rinzler555 you can retell real life stories and ideas in manner not loaded by real life baggage through fiction. Philosophically speaking guy was exposed in his childhood to Nietzsche (Kreia) and stoicism (Iroh).
I only now realized just how this game has effected me as a person. I constantly try to live like I played the light side PC. Always trying to make some one else’s life a bit better. Being human sometimes makes that hard.
Well regardless, I would like to see a video on the philosophies you guys touched on.
Well said, the theological themes of Star Wars have always drawn me towards it, and probably why I desire to be altruistic without being a fanatic about it.
@@AndreNitroX being altruistic isn't altruistic if we must crow about it. It would become self-serving.
You're doing it right.
@@matthiasnagorski8411 thank you, by nature we should want to help others, not for favor or for validation.
@@AndreNitroX by nature? I would argue that humans are intuitively not altruistic by nature.
@@JohnSmith-fo5cx your right, humans have a sinful nature, but through Jesus Christ we can become so much more. Even if we don't do evil things, the sinful nature is always present, and naturally we would not desire to be altruistic. JC gives us a way out of that nature, and the ability to be altruistic naturally.
Personally I feel Star Wars became so much more outside of George Lucas trilogy, it had to. The art outgrew the artist as they say. These are the Star Wars stories that I adore, so rich with lore and fantastic ideas that could never be shown in a 2 hour movie.
Yeah, I agree. and I actually am quite happy with the Disney purchase personally. Im loving seeing all these new series and movies come out. Im not gonna praise the sequels or anything, but they didnt ruin Star Wars for me at all either. I just sort of live with it and am happy to have new content coming out so consistently. I know a lot of people hated Boba and Kenobi, I personally liked them just fine though (Kenobi really should have been better though that was an easy homerun they coulda had 🤷) but as they work our the kinks, im sure they'll figure it out. Im hoping at least.
Super excited for Bad Batch season 2 premiering on the 4th though! Just 2 more days!!
Yes, exactly. All this discourse about whether George would've approved of each direction taken is futile, IMHO, because Star Wars is a universe where we can take multiple different directions.
@@sambridgers9543 yes, while i respect the man and what he created, his word is not sacred, so I create my own canon based on the content I enjoy.
@@whorror_punx well said, i personally enjoy the mandalorian.
@@whorror_punx There was a lot of content coming out during the golden age of Star Wars (the 2000s). Just because that content wasn't in the form of big budget shows or movies, doesn't mean Star Wars was dead back then. It simply used to be quality over quantity, but not anymore.
"I do not have the years required - nor the desire to indulge you"
- hot damn, Kreia coming out SWINGING !
After playing KOTOR 2 for the first time, it became my favorite game of all time. The writing and dialogue were top notch and really made you think about the greater galaxy and question what you knew about the jedi, sith and the force itself. Kreia was a superb teacher and later antagonist, and is imo the best written character in all of star wars. Nihilus and Sion were also both really interesting villains, and the jedi exile's story was cool in how it connected to Revan's, and how the Exile was sort of picking up the pieces of the galaxy following the jedi civil war. The supporting characters were great, and the story is imo the greatest in all of star wars, not your conventional light vs dark as you said, but something more nuanced and greater. I think obsidian absolutely nailed this game and it was a shame they were rushed in development, i wish more star wars fans and gamer in general knew about how phenomenal kotor 2 is. I only wish obsidian had been able to finish and release their kotor 3, it was shaping up to be a sensational conclusion to a brilliant trilogy.
What the hidden Sith empire could have been gives me chills, especially with Darth Nihilus running around: Nihilus could feel any gathering of Force users and drain them and the planet they were on…and he makes no move on the other Sith. Either they had the power to hide themselves from that force of nature, or he was saving them for when he was able to confront them.
neither? He just didnt care and didnt see them as competition.
idk, i mean Vitate is ultimately pretty boss, i mean over 1000 years old and veteran of the great hyperspace war, the original galactic conflict. so powerful that he could keep tons of sith who usually just start killing each other in line that whole time, all the while having a hidden back up shadow empire.... mf had not one but 2 secret empires. most successful sith lord ever outside of old palpy himself.
@@e.corellius4495 how successful really is Palpatine with that context? Palpatine had a 20-30 year reign? Vitiate had a literal thousand year empire
well vitiates empire, while impressive and the cultural and aesthetic model that palpatines empire would adopt, never completely defeated the republic or the jedi. the republic still controlled about 1/3 of the galaxy at vitiates height, and there were still a few thousand jedi. ol palpatine was the only, and i mean only, sith to actually achieve total galactic domination. (thats why it wasnt the second sith empire, but the FIRST GALACTIC empire) and had the jedi reduced from thousands to a few dozen that would be hunted down by his aprentice vader after the clone wars. he got closer to eradicating the jedi than any other.
and you cant count nilhus there either, most the jedi were already gone before he even showed up, took an army of madolorians, sith and two wars to reduce the jedi to what they would be in kotor2. old palpatine did all that just by himself, no force powers required. kreia would actually be pretty proud of that particular achievement. (would probably hate what palpatine would do with the empire though...)
Thank you very much for showing love to one of my all-time favourite games.
No problem!
No problem!
@@geetslys Hope you'll get to explore the X-Wing series of games too.
(Also, your comment duplicated.)
4000 BBY to 3950 BBY, give or take maybe a decade, is probably the best set of Star Wars stories ever told.
100% my singularly favorite period in all of Galactic history.
Agreed.
Nope, original trilogy is better
@@jogsi1558you are entitled to your opinion.
I think it’s no exaggeration that you could practically write a book on how deep KOTOR 2 was as a game and story. It is a travesty that we will probably never get another Star Wars story like it, at least while Disney’s still around.
Agreed which is why I treasure this story even more
totally agreed on both counts, it is imo the greatest story in all of star wars
Andor gives me hope that Disney is willing to try less fluffy options.
IMO, Star Wars video games really started going downhill with the Force Unleashed, which was long before the sale to Disney. Was upset there was never a KOTOR 3 and Jedi Knight 3.
@@bchristian85Force Unleashed II 🤢
Kreia is the prime example why this game is great. She is the perfect antagonist as she constantly challenges the player's beliefs. And still, I wouldn't say she is pure evil. If you act too cruel during the game, she dislikes it the same way she dislikes charity. At one point she even claims that she never wanted the Jedi to die. Being defeated, but not dead. I wouldn't even say that she is a Sith. As she said to Atris, they both aren't what their titles suggest. I always saw Kreia more as an entity of her own. Of course, she is a villain and does horrible things during the game. She manipulates and kills people, she is even willing to commit genocide when it helps her to achieve the goal (but she also has no problems with harming herself, like when she stabbed herself on Dantooine to teach the Exile a lesson and in the end she even sacrifices herself. That's something a Sith would never do). Her idea of killing the force itself is really unique.
But whenever she speaks and challenges you, she has a point. I learned a lot from her and her philosophy.
This was an amazing video. My favorite part is the “Healing together” chapter starting 34:24. I like how you delved into the individual deep traumas that each companion carries. One of the biggest themes in this game is trauma and overcoming it to become stronger & wiser. The exile exerts powerful influence over her companions to help them “come to terms with their past” as you said. Opening them to the force is the most beautiful outcome to this…
kotor2 is literally my favorite piece of starwars media.
This video was very well done and the maker’s commentary was on point all the way through.
I remember when I first started playing the game, I was skeptical at first. Running around with a droid and a Han Solo wannabe looked bleak at first. But wow - little by little, you peel back the layers and its one of the most profound and entertaining stories ever written, much less in a video game.
My favorite aspect of the game are the companions. Their backstories and development as the game goes along really adds a ton of depth to the story as a whole. They’re not just a bunch of side-kicks. They end up being a key part of the quest. Its a story where the main character, the Exile, doesnt really “progress” or “develop”, except as his/her companions develop. That’s unique and fresh dynamic. And everything ties together - the Exile, the past, the antagonists, the companions - it all ties together for a complete story.
Anyway, well done on the video. How I wish the “content” we are given nowadays had 1/10th the depth, thoughtfulness, and connectivity KOTOR2 had.
Loved your analysis of this game. KOTOR2 is imo, the best RPG game ever made. Sure it's very dated, but the story and characters were so well done, that I even play it today and still get immersed in this brilliant game.
This game is in my top 10. Such a well written game. Darth Traya is one of my favorite all time villains.
The Senate had a time machine with how ahead of his time he was.
Glad you uploaded this again, I only got to hear half of it last time 😄
This game works incredibly well in tandem with its predecessor. Talk about standing on the shoulder of giants! My original favorite game
Meetra was in a sense able to turn her wound from a black hole that consumes into a white hole that gives. The most basic explanation of her wound is finally complete
Redistributes. Exile still feeds on death like Nihlus (story explanation for xp mechanic in game) but can redistribute this power to others while Nihlus is like constantly starving animal that has no control over its instincts. Nihlus makes the wound deeper uncontrollably while Exile has potential to be full blown parasitic/symbiotic infection of the Force.
@@Nobody32990Damn.....that changes the way I look at XP 😳
One correction: Visas Marr is not the last Miraluka. Katarr wasn't their homeworld. It was a miraluka colony. It did make them more rare and almost gone in that part of the galaxy though, as their population isn't large to begin with.
As soon as I heard you recommend stop watching and play the game if you haven't yet, i subscribed. Your love for the game and people experiencing it outweighs your desire for views on youtube, and passionate creators like you deserve support. Kotor 2 will likely always remain my favorite game of all time. Thank you for encouraging others to experience it.
This channel's ability to effortlessly switch between short, fun videos and longform deep-dives is incredible.
So excited for more content from you guys, long and short!
2:00 - The Restored Content Mod is practically official game content now anyway; when the game was released on Steam they made a point to add Stream Workshop compatibility so the game could be modded easily, and the Switch port was *supposed* to get the Restored Content Mod as official DLC, though whether that plan is still happening is up in the air at this point.
Kreia didn't really kill the jedi masters-the Force did-she implanted the same thing that was sewering the exile from the force on to them-they had a Choice: to sewer their ties to the force and live or to keep the force and die-they choose the later.
I love how your intro explanations of the planets could each be the start of a novel. Really shows how much worldbuilding went into the plot.
FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE HAS RECOGNISED THIS FOR THE MASTERPIECE IT IS!
Um... everybody does.
Yeah this game is legendary definitely the best star wars game story wise
@@rob776 sadly, it isn't everybody. Certain ppl view this one in a bad light and think the first is the real masterpiece
@@TY-km8hj The first game is great but come on, the second one is far superior.
@@A7XKoRnRocks1 agreed, I've said this for yrs
KoTOR and KoTOR 2, is still one of the best storyline/decision based games I've ever played. I'm glad that many others have enjoyed these games as well. It brings a lot of missing points of view tat isnt normally seen in other Star Wars games or movies. Good work on your content, keep it up.
I agree. KOTOR2 is the most well written piece of Star Wars media...when it works. It might be the most unstable game I've ever played and since I'm playing it on the Xbox, there's no chance at downloading patch mods.
You’re the main Star Wars channel I watch, and I love your deep dives! I’d really love it if you went more in depth into how the true sith were foreshadowed by kotor, I’d also love to hear more about your take on the revanchists
I really enjoyed your video, as Kotor 2 is my favorite game of all time. One thing I'd say is that Kreia did not kill the former Jedi masters, rather she completely drained them of the force. They were alive, but the shock of losing the force was basically like losing all 5 senses, which turned them into empty husks unable to perceive anything.
This game was the first one I completed multiple times. I went through it so often, when I started a new game almost 14 years later, I remembered almost every outcome of decisions you can make
i was so immersed in this story. such a beautiful game.
It truly is a testament to how amazing this game really is being that it was released in 2004 and it still being discussed to this very day. Phenomenal writing, phenomenal, storytelling, phenomenal characters, phenomenal plot, phenomenal music, and an overall phenomenal game.
I played this game when it was first released when I was a kid and I had fun playing it. It’s much more interesting being an adult now (26 years old) looking back at the game, and seeing the deep subtexts and nuances of each individual character, and why they did what they did.
Watching videos like this is somewhat therapeutic for me.
From what I am getting from what Kotor 1 & 2 has set up from dialogue and narrative set up the Kotor 3 Sith antagonists were supposed to be a truly terrifying dark faction. With Sith Lords more powerful then Darth Nihilus and to them Dark Side Wound in the Force nexuses like Malachor V were a common environment to them. So powerful to scare Revan and Malak into seeking the Star Forge.
And with the vibe I am getting from what Kreia and Ajunta Pall say there could have been a far greater force or power behind this faction of megapowerful dark Sith. Kreia with her comments about something outside the galaxy that Revan saw. And Ajunta Pall he explains something out there which gave him and his fellow dark lords their power to rule the Ancient Sith. This gives me the idea that whoever or... whatever... the true antagonist Kotor 3 was intending was going to be greater then anything we saw before. Perhaps a primordial or even eldritch being. Something to threaten the entire galaxy and drive Revan into such fear of preparation against it to set out to find the Star Forge and convert the entire galaxy to becoming a dark side nation under his leadership. A force of nature worse then Nihilus yet not mindless or bound to a hunger. But has a drive for a era of chaos and war before going dormant until it's time comes again. Like the whole cosmic balance the Force demands which Kreia rebukes and hates. And the hidden true Sith revere it.
Now that to me sounds like a great antagonist. Less like a person and more like a ancient evil which is above the Sith but unites even the most chaotic and deadly of Sith Lords under it's banner and doctrines like a synagogue. A power greater then Vitiate and would make even him submit to it's rule if he did exist in the similar conditions that he did in Swtor. Like Abeloth but different.
"The Force betrays"
“I am a timeless chorus, join your voice with mine and sing victory everlasting” - Gravemind
Yes like abeloth
@@akale2620
Perhaps in a sense but maybe not completely like her.
@@akale2620
"Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness. May the father's sins pass to his son."
@@akale2620
"Do I take life or give it? Who is victim, and who is foe?"
"Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time... to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed."
"Listen, hypocrite who holds the key! Think on your past, and know."
"With me dies the potential of a thousand million souls. Can you appreciate the tragedy, simpleton that you are? Your life is but an instant, a lonely flash. A ruse. And your... 'victory'... (laughs) Another stone upon the monument to the sins of shortsighted fools."
@@thorshammer7883 so quoted mother?
Hands down the best video on KOTOR 2 I've seen, and I've seen a lot of them! Clear, concise and somewhat unexpected in its conclusion.
Good work.
I like the long winded monologues. It's soothing but always a hidden darkness and everyone is broken in some way.
After so many years, through thick and thin, this is still my favorite piece of Star Wars content and favorite game overall. The world will never know what it is missing with this level of writing
Personally, I think the most amazing thing about this game is how the developers and head writer went about this story. In interviews, Chris Avellone admitted that he was never a fan of Star Wars before this game. Obsidian didn't even really want to make the game. They could've just slapped together something haphazard that didn't go against the status quo. A simple hero's journey. But they didn't. Instead, he and the team consumed every piece of Star Wars media they could get their hands on, doing their best to truly understand the world they were expected to create. And it shows in their handling of the game.
With how rocky the development of the KOTOR remake has been, I say give it back to Obsidian. They've been dying for a chance to handle this tale again and finish it properly, as they wanted without all the pressure from the head honchos. This story is by far the best. It's my favorite game. And that's as is, as unfinished as it is (And no one can deny that it's unfinished, even with the Restored Content Mod, though that mod does definitely help smooth things out). Imagine how amazing it would've been had Obsidian been allowed more time with it?
And I'd definitely love a longer video really digging into the meat of this game! It deserves the recognition and discussion!
Avellone was a fan of SW, but only up to ESB, after that his love for it waned.
It was during his deep dive into the (then) EU that he rediscovered his love for the franchise.
How would they tell the full story when the guy who wrote it, Chris Avellone, was cancelled on the basis of false accusations and left Obsidian because he despises Obsidian ownership and how poorly they handle projects?
The whole "evil publisher higher ups" thing isn't the problem, from Avellone's perspective. Its how Obsidian used to be run while he was there.
There's an argument to be made that most of the incredibly talented people at Obsidian from that era are gone. Theyve got some new people like Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky, but its my understanding that everyone that worked on KotOR 2 is either gone or basically working in a sinecure, living off the business they built.
As if I couldn’t love this game even more. I’ve often praised this game for how it tackles Kreia’s unique philosophy but never really looked at home it also provides an opposite. Furthermore I had not considered the more practical aspects such as war, and trauma. Amazing Video
another great thing to come from these games was Jedi Battle Meditation - a 'seer' class Jedi using the force to harmonize the space fleet - the opposite of Emperor Palpatine who used the dark side to control his battle fleet (i think that was in the Timothy Zahn books) which fell apart when his mortal body was destroyed by Vader.
This is how I got into Star Wars lore. I played this game for hours, and prior to that I used to not like Star Wars very much. This is the game that showed me how deep the lore went.
The story of KOTOR 2 really went over my head on my first playthrough of the game so this video was very useful in helping me finding further enjoyment in this Obsidian classic. I Still don't understand the beginning of the game whatsoever, but ultimately it doesn't matter too much. Very nice video
What dont you get about it?
44:59 the difference between KotOR 2 and TLJ is that KotOR is a loving deconstruction that understands what Star Wars is, whereas TLJ is… yeah…
For the love of anything left sacred in the SW universe, we need a good series or movies that can cover this time period.
Sorry for the barrage of posts. I have been writing a KOTOR based Star Wars D20 table top game that starts 5 years after KOTOR 2 ends. I have been devouring Old Republic lore like crazy and this channel has been instrumental in getting me back into it.
Fantastic videos and commentary. Keep on slaying it.
We'll never get good movies on anything from EU, it'll always be inferior and watered down
Best we'll get is Filoni and Favro stealing something from this timeline and bastardizing it. Like they've been doing with everything else.
Why does it need to be a movie? Just leave it alone. Or is the problem that you think video games aren't as good/prestigious whatever as a movie
The best way to bring these stories is to canon is with modern remakes of the games. An eight episode Disney+ series or even a trilogy would cut a lot of the story and would not be the same.
@@MJJFilms I disagree on remakes, just re-release them in 1920x1080 with upscaled textures, Obsidian basically fixed KOTOR 2 for the steam release and even switched it to 64-bit.
this is the best video Ive heard explainging KOTOR II. its not a 3 hour long video that over complicates basic star wars concepts but it also doesnt skip anything too important.
Great deep dive. Love exploring the concepts of these games.
Definitely interested in anymore deep dives in the topic
I can't believe people are still making videos on this game. I remember first playing it at an age where I barely understood how to play the game, I hardly understood what was going on but the image of the ebon hawk flying into the distance at the end stuck with me forever.
KOTOR 2 is the best!!! Bar none!! Cheers Geetly🍺🍺🍺🍺😎🎸
frankly i enjoyed KOTOR more than KOTOR 2
I always thought the characters is what made the story of KOTOR2 so good, but as time went out it's story really has been appreciated, examined and explained very well. The approach they took with this game was very underrated
(And we're back in this.)
TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance, the Dark Forces Saga, and Republic Commando are still king/queen in my eyes though. Also, Episode I: Racer.
Kreia is the best written character in history 👏 hands down 🙌 👏 every word that comes out of her mouth is litery gold!
Kreia has such understandable motivations, she reached the height of both jedi and sith, and realized the force itself dictates lives and free will is false. So she wants to kill the force.
The free will aside, galaxy and non force sensitives are constant collateral damage to Sith and Jedi offing each other because their power sugar daddy is incapable of balancing act other then mutal self destruction of its zealot followers. This good as any reason to hate the Force.
I am an original fan of KOTOR and KOTOR 2 from back when they came out. I was obsessed back in the early/mid ‘00s. And I always felt more drawn to KOTOR 2 (even without the content restoration mod since I had it on Xbox - though I’ve grown very familiar with the missing pieces). For years, people would say KOTOR was the masterpiece and KOTOR 2 was the incomplete but still pretty good sequel. I’m so glad that there’s been a bit of a realization, particularly lately, of just how truly amazing KOTOR 2 is in all the things it actually does and tries and the story it chooses to tell and how. How KOTOR is a good, complete game, but KOTOR 2 is a truly innovative and daring game.
Plus, I could wield a silver lightsaber, which is pretty friggin dope.
Yea it's more like Kotor 1 is pretty good and Kotor 2 is the best rpg ever made
Exploring the best written (Star Wars) game of all time.
Did he stutter ?
I played this game for the first time recently, absolutely amazing combination of atmospheric storytelling with personal interactions. I'd love to see a Knights of the Old Republic movie series made one day.
KOTOR 2 gave us a better depiction of the Jedi's self-righteousness and blinding arrogance than the entire prequel trilogy. That was one of the key plot points from the movies that Lucas handled too clumsily and ineffectively. Jedi pride, dogma, hypocrisy, efforts to avoid conflict in the face of an antagonizing force, and their unwillingness to do any introspection or make reforms all caused their own demise and trillions of deaths. That, along with the depiction of the aftermath of 3 catastrophic wars and how complex the morality and characters are, really sealed the deal for how much I loved KOTOR 2 above any other Star Wars story outside of the original trilogy. It gave us a new, more nuanced perspective on the cost of war and the light vs dark relationship.
Another great video, my friend. I watch these to occupy my time and broaden my knowledge of the Star Wars Universe, and to fall asleep at night. They are great for both.
its great that Kreia thinks the Force itself has a 'plan' for things - and as such she wants to wage war on God. George Lucas wanted to explore this with his Whills of the Force in the sequel trilogy. Interestingly, Stargate SG1 last few seasons dealt with the idea of 'force ghosts' and how much effect they are allowed on the mortal realm - far better than anything Star Wars has ever done.
I agree completely! Everyone trashed this game when it came out. But the story was so intricate and intriguing. I so wish that the new movies had covered this era.
Thank you for the interesting video.
I have, however, many reservations about the section on Chodo Habat. Essentially, the way you present that particular conflict misses both Kreia's actual point and the reason why there is a conflict between Habat's position and Kreia's. This missing the point is enshrined in your own admission that Habat's point is 'simple'. If Habat's point were so simple and unambiguous, this would not only make Kreia's resistance against it futile (as you try to pass it off). It would also dismantle the very narrative of the game.
Habat's point would be well received if all Kreia's reflection amounted to were to strike a balance between the dogmatist dickishness of the Jedi Council, and the cartoonish evil/lust for power of the Sith creed, by giving into the ways of both on an alternate basis. If that were the case, Habat's position would be arguably the more sensible one (and the game would be over, thematically at least). But Kreia's viewpoint goes beyond the mere rejection of Jedi/Sith distortions and shows that Habat's position is itself limited, finite, approaching the issue only from a particular standpoint while surreptitiously raising it to the correct position.
Kreia's stance is directed against the force itself. There is a longstanding conception of viewing Kreia's philosophy as essentially Nietzschean. Leaving aside matters of interpretation on Nietzsche's philosophy itself (and especially on his posthumous work Die Wille zur Macht), some traits of Kreia's position appear undoubtedly Nietzschean. In particular, the rejection of dependence on others and the idea that the only valuable strength is the one the agent produces by itself. However, there is a much wider point in Kreia's philosophy that is often neglected and frequently only tangentially expressed. Kreia's stance endorses an almost Kantian defense of the idea and value of rational autonomy. This is the original sin of the force. The force, its existence with its seemingly unstoppable will, is the ultimate affront to the rational autonomy of the subject. Every living creature becomes a mere tool, a simple expendable pawn to be used by the force and its inscrutable biddings.
When Kant writes his second critique, the general position in western philosophy on the topic of free will (and on theodicy, the question of reconciling the benevolence of God and the existence of evil) was the Leibniz-Wolff perspective of pre-established harmony. What happens in the world and what human beings do in the world is so according to God's plan. However, this completely undercuts the idea that the human being is a rational, autonomous creature. There is nothing rational nor autonomous in behaving in accordance with what is essentially an external constraint, an authority that cannot even be recognized as such by the subject because its rationale is completely transcendent to the actual world.
This is what the force is for Kreia. To be open to the force means the complete rejection and abandonment not only of freedom but of reason, of moral worth. Now what one does is nothing but a minimal expendable cog in the greater architecture of what the force wills. There is no space to be a man, a woman, or an agent here because what one does and what is affected by one's actions are always already beyond the possibility of rational evaluation. This is also where the Nietzschean interpretation of Kreia's philosophy shows its weakness. A Nietzschean perspective, notwithstanding its talk about authenticity or freedom, wouldn't see the force understood this way as something to be resisted or fought. The admittedly sometimes overblown irrationalism of Nietzschean philosophy would view the force as the destiny (the Shicksal, a concept extremely important in the Lebensphilosophie of 1920s Germany that Nietzsche influenced) that awaits those who are worthy of it. To a Nietzschean, it doesn't ultimately matter if there is something transcendent that cannot be rationally comprehended and that undermines rational autonomy (the sometimes forgotten coda to 'God is dead' is 'and you have killed him') as long as this entity establishes a distinction in the worthiness of the subjects under its control which provides the significativity of values in the world. This is where your analysis also reveals itself as simplistic. Kreia's stance is not trivially individualistic as you claim it to be. She would remain a Sith if that were the case, and she'd need much less rationalization than what she provides in the game. The mistake you and many others make in reading the philosophy of Kreia is to conflate individualism and autonomy. this ends up painting her as a kind of Ayn Rand figur more than anything, something she's clearly not (Rand loathed Kant's concept of autonomy, because it carries with it an entitlement to responsibility. And this is the key of Kreia's position: owning up to one's own choices as rational autonomous commitments, not instead as something that can be explained away by external forces acting on the subject).
If Kreia were simply a Nietzschean or a Randian, she would stop at the rejection of jedi and sith sects. But no, she rejects the force altogether. And this is why Habat's position is something she rejects as well. What does it mean to heal the planet through the force if this healing also means opening Telos again to that same endless Spiel that brought it to ruins in the first place? If Telos is brought back in contact with the force, the kind of healing it and its inhabitants achieve will be swept away, and with it its significance, at the next turn of events that the endless carousel of the force requires. The only real, factual healing that can be achieved is not by the mere semblance of a temporary improvement brought about by that thing that doomed Telos in the first place. The only real healing that can be achieved is via the rejection of the terms and conditions of the force's game. But Habat cannot understand this, because he approaches the situation as if it were a mere conflict of opposites in a neutral setting. Kreia's position sees through Habat's simple alternative because its simplicity reveals nothing more than a mystification of what's at stake.
Of course, in the game, and at that point of the game, this cannot be understood by the player, nor spelled out by Kreia adequately, simply because it is too early for both the Exile and the player. Both the Exile and the player think at this point that the issue at hand is again a new iteration of the light/dark conflict (and it is also presented in this way, with the antagonist played by Czerka at this point). The Exile still thinks her being severed by the force was a punishment by the (light) Jedi Council for other dark side choices. The game instead shows that the whole setting where these conflicts arise is the root of all the suffering endured by the galaxy. There can be no case for the light in KOTOR II, because the light cannot win its case on the terms of the force.
On a side note, Kreia's perspective becomes clearer when one keeps in mind that Kreia is essentially Chris Avellone's mouthpiece in the game. Avellone, before becoming lead designer of KOTOR II, didn't really like star wars, and especially rejected the received conception of the force as somehow neutral, disinterested, or worse of all, supposedly trying to strive for a balance that at the same time mysteriously aimed at eliminating completely one of its counterweights.
Kreia is Avellone's way of achieving a capacity for self-reflection of star wars on itself. And in essence, Kreia is never proved wrong in the game. The only problem is that the final act of the game makes it look like she's defeated because, after the encounter with the masters on Dantooine, the game loses its plot and fails to make its point. Essentially this is because the game needed a conclusion, and it must be a conclusion that remains within the boundaries of Star Wars. How could have the game progressed once Kreia's lesson had been accepted? The only possible way would have been for the Exile to go into exile again and renounce the game of the force on her own terms. But this does make for an anticlimactic ending. However, the fact that this would have been a more sensible way of ending Kotor II's story can also be seen in the fact that until almost before the game was ready, Atris was planned to be Darth Traya, and not Kreia. Atris would have revealed how her dogmatic adherence to the jedi order was nothing else than the corruption and treachery bred by the sith teachings. However, once Atris is vanquished, there would be no way to move the story further: how can the jedi order be rebuilt? It cannot; it has to be abandoned. Why should the Exile go find and help Revan against the True Sith? the attempt is nothing else than an additional futile move in a game that needs to be abandoned.
In fact, it would undercut one of the main narrative plots of the game, the fact that Revan had not simply fallen to the dark side but had recognized a greater peril that could only be met by going beyond jedi teachings. Remember, it is this revelation that gifted us the character Revan as we know and appreciate now, the fallen hero, a complex character that allowed us to revisit the story-line of the first game in a different light. Before this, Revan's story, while entertaining, was not much different than many other Fall/Redemption story-line that we see in star wars (somebody said that Kotor I's storyline had been prequelified, and the old republic era had already a redemption story in Ulic Qel-Droma). By destroying the grip of the force on the Star Wars universe, even Revan's crusade becomes a mere accident, something eliminable that will run its course according to the will of the force.
KotOR accomplishes spectacularly what Episode 8 tries and absolutely fails at.
No npc or star wars character challenges you and your decisions like krea.
20:25.
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Between you and Noxxarian, there's hours of content on KOTOR 2 lore.
There's also 100% Star Wars and Papito Qinn.
@@michaelandreipalon359 love papito
Noxx has Revan video about to drop!!!
The art of these titles carry so much nostalgia and realizing of the amount of work those games required to be as memorable as they are
Phenomenal analysis! I really appreciated how you showed how the game's events counter Kreia's perspective on the Force. Your discussion about Force bonds and connection being true power reminds me of the abilities that Luke and Mara discover together in Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future novel. KOTOR 2 is brilliant, and I think you did a great job of showing how the story's dialogue tells you one thing through Kreia, but its actions and events tell you another.
Omg I died when you said 12 characters and then showed the disciple. I've literally beaten this game like 7 times. I've never gotten him... I had no idea that was a thing
Umm lol. Bcz you didn't play as female
Same here haha
@@akale2620 honestly, I just prefer the Handmaiden as a companion. I find her more compelling. Not knocking the Disciple, he’s great, I’ve played a couple of playthroughs with him, but whenever I do I find myself missing the Handmaiden more than I find myself missing the Disciple in the reverse situation.
@@olorinmagus4479 yes I prefer Brianna too.
I dont get the red haired girl as a companion either
If they had gotten the time they really needed to develop this game I think it without question would’ve gone down as one of the greatest games of all time. There was just so many things they wanted to do that would’ve set the game so far ahead of it’s predecessor, but they just didn’t have time to finish it all. Thankfully the restored content mod does help with that like you mentioned, but it’s still not all of what they wanted to do on the game.
I really hope one day the kotor remakes end up coming through because. Imagine playing the story of those games, but with the gameplay of like Fallen Order
Big take, calling this the best story ever. But considering it's a story set during the darkest time in Jedi history until The Great Jedi Purge, you play as a Jedi Exile who lost their connection to the force, and are combating the three strongest Sith in history, it's easy to see why this story is the best. And that's before taking into consideration everything else about the story aswell.
"The three strongest sith in history" now that is a bold statement, considering the likes of Sidious, Vitiate or Krayt who could crush those three.
@El Father Nihilus was tied to both Malacor V and the Force. Meetra Surik was only able to defeat him because she was a wound in the force, an anti-force if you will. But that was temporary. The destruction of Malacor V was his ultimate end. Those three aren't threats to him, just buffets.
This took place after a jedi purge
@@inductivegrunt94 No you are wrong, just because Meetra could defeat him just for been a wound in the force dosen’t mean that someone who isn’t could not too, especially someone like Dark empire Sidious who can destroy planets or entire fleets with force storms while been sit in his throne on the other side of the galaxy .
@El Father What part of Nihilus' backstory do you not understand? Nihilus feeds off of the living force, thus someone like Sidious would be drained by just proximity. Look him up before you say Darth Sidious can overcome the literal force eater.
And calling me wrong invalidates your argument since you say you're right based on your opinion. Look up the story of Nihilus before you make a fool out of yourself like you just did now.
Thank you for correctly understanding the plot and what Kreia is all about. There are some multi hour videos out there (you know the one) and many people that uncritically accept everything Kreia says at face value, even though she's an obvious liar, hypocrite, and master manipulator. Her might makes right ideas are reprehensible in both Star Wars and real life, and it's bizarre to see so many people buy in to nazi-like ubermensch ideology as long as it's framed in terms of "both sides are wrong" nonsense and fantasy terms.
Your example of the Ithorians is debatable at best. Kreia IS correct about them in numerous regards - First that they DO want to use the Exile to advance their plans for Telos, second that they ARE quite incompetent and naive, with them begging the Exile to come back and save them from the mercs after their deal is concluded, and third that they're making very uncertain promises of rewards which in essence the Exile can already achieve on their own.
You say that it's indisputable that reconnecting Telos to the Force is restoring it to life and that it's growth isn't coming at the expenses of others - I'd counter that the billions of credits the Republic have sunk into the project and the countless species the Ithorians are harvesting from other planets is indeed quite the cost. The Ithorians accuse Czerka of denigrating their restoration efforts, but we see in the restoration zone that when the Ithorians' constant upkeep is removed, the ecology that they've designed collapses in on itself. The truth is that the Ithorians may simply be idealists badly running a complicated project, and it only stays afloat due to the Republic channeling so many resources into it.
And as to your main point, that the game is about healing wounds and bringing people together, I disagree to a point. The Exile's trauma made them more full and complete as a person. Their wound is the only thing that allows them to defeat Nihilus. All of your Jedi companions "healed" through reconnecting to the Force, joined together, still can't defeat Kreia, only the Exile alone can. In her final dialogs, Kreia outlines through her visions of the future how, even though there are temporary victories and some people will regain hope for a while, all the wounds and problems afflicting the galaxy never really go away, they just continue to fester for millennia as people forget their problems that you've solved for them. This is most pointed with the Republic, as she defines the entire conflict as one in which it needs to define itself to truly overcome and evolve into something greater - Instead the Exile fixes their issues, and they go on to die a millennia-long rotting death.
Frankly, the best evidence against a Lightside interpretation of the themes is what actually follows the canon Lightside story; everything just devolves back into banality, back into the endless cycle that Kreia hated so much. The Exile reconnects with the light, becomes an incredibly boring character, and is subsumed into the Force as a plot-ghost. The Jedi and Sith continue to war against each other for literally thousands of years. Everything continues on in adherence to the will of the Force, and nobody is free.
Kotor 2 is essentially Obsidian dissecting Star Wars and admitting that the setting is rote and formulaic. It's the best Star Wats story because it actually voices that criticism in a thoughtful way, and it will remain the best because the nature of the franchise means that it's impossible for anybody to actually address those ideas and follow through to do something completely new. The closest anybody else has ever come was probably what the writers were trying to do with Jacen at the end of the New Jedi Order series, but then the word literally came down from the authorities at Lucasarts to cut it out and just make him another Sith Lord.
I loved this video. I played KOTOR 2 so much when it came out. Thank you for posting this
Drew Karpyshyn, the writer who wrote the first two Mass Effect games before abandoning the series, also wrote KOTOR 1, which he also abandoned. His abdication opened the way for the KOTOR 2 team to create the masterpiece storyline of Kreia and The Exile. You are correct--it is the best SW narrative ever written. Because Kreia says plainly that Revan was superseded by The Exile in power and importance, Karpyshyn, in a fit of jealousy, jockeyed into position as the lead writer of SWTOR, and used that position to completely undermine and unravel the story created by KOTOR 2. In my opinion, Drew Karpyshyn is the equivalent of D&D (GoT) and Kathleen Kennedy and her Sith minions in terms of abusing the writing position to destroy a spectacular and higher quality franchise concept.
They did The Exile dirty in the book and in the MMO. However, KoToR II did Darth Malak dirty as well. Not as bad as The Exile got, but nevertheless done dirty.
@@vehnashur2771 How was Darth Malak done dirty? I only remember a few mentions. They show a dream version in the Korriban caves where he recruits Jedi. Revan was even cooler in 2 than 1. Maybe that makes Malak less important by comparison? I agree the exile got shafted after 2.
Swotor is an overblown shit
I've played an conquered vast majority of these at one point an time too. Much agree games like KOTOR are inspirations for other now legendarily great games like the Mass Effect franchise.. which is probably where they got the ideas from since they basically followed the formulas that gave rise to this kinda genera. It was great in ways we rarely seen since this. Especially with their being SO much you could do in either of the KOTOR games
All other Star Wars games were spoiled for me by KOTOR2, the first truly adult Star Wars script and story. Which is what made the clunky broken last 1/4 of the game such a gut wrenching disappointment and why I followed the KOTOR2 Restoration Mod project for 6 years before giving up then a few years later joyfully but not quite as much as I hoped I played the restored version that at least made sense of the droid factory and sith academy. This game was astounding and I salute you for giving it its pride of place; and I absolutely loved KOTOR (but main story was derivative and predictable) and Dark Forces III/Jedi Knight II: Jedi Exile (best lightsaber combat ever).
I've vaguely thought about making a video about this game, but you guys already said everything I would have wanted to say. Brilliant video!
Something I observed that a lot of people are forgetting about Kreia's philosophy is that she's the *main antagonist* . As every *great* philosophical antagonist in media like Thanos, Killmonger, or multiple iterations of the Joker have done, of course Kreia has great points regarding Sith and Jedi, but just like those other villains, she was designed to ideologically fight you at the climax of both Light and Dark Side runs. And what makes the Light Side story so powerful is that with every "Influence Lost: Kreia" that you're *supposed* to be getting, you're proving her wrong, as you so eloquently put it with Chodo Habat's philosophy and the Khoonda Militia, Onderon Soldiers, *and* the Republic Fleet appearing in the penultimate battle. I'd argue stopping Atris from following Kreia's path also proves that mercy is a strength.
What makes the final battle at Trayus Core a little anti-climactic, then, is the lack of a complete rebuttal either through words or actions, that tests or cements the main argument of the game that our bonds, attachments, unity, and loyalty all make us *stronger*, not weaker. However, the game still echoes with that philosophy even at the end symbolically.
There was a conversation between Krea and Atris where Atris had as much hatred for the force as Krea did, only masked as attempting to save the force and restore it. The Atris story might be one worth diving into deeper as she is wounded as well.
Yeah. Atris could have had a bit more coverage in this presentation; although given its depth and quality we can’t complain.
It seems that Atris was to become the successor to Kreia/Darth Traya when she died, though that did not turn out the way she wanted.
this was a great little run down, still my favourite story and game. this game made me love star wars and think of it so much deeper and even got my perspectives towards life twisted up haha
This is also why kreia is my favorite Star Wars character by a long shot. If there ever was a “grey” Jedi it would be her. She understood that light and dark are just 2 sides of the same coin. 2 halves of the whole picture. Such an interesting character and some incredible writing!
No, Kreia is a Sith and spews bullshit to manipulate people. She is blaming the force as an excuse to avoid accountability for creating Nihilus and causing the issue to begin with. Grey Jedi is an oxymoron.
@@SkintSNIPER262 Thank you
@@SkintSNIPER262 she didn't create nihilus tho, the echos from the mass hsadow generator did and she found him later.... and if she was a sith then why would she attempt to destroy the very thing that gives her power. Seems to me u didn't understand the game
@@SkintSNIPER262 Kreia did not creat Nihlus (worst she did was train him because she hoped he could become what Exile was in the end) nor does she spews bs. She is Machiavellian but completely understandable in her motives. She blames Force for making galaxy playground for two factions of its extremists and "balancing" this never ending war through regular culling of both sides while non force sensitives are collateral. In essence Force as presented in TSL "it's like hand of God hovering above" robbing life of its free will. In EU (which Kotor 1 and 2 are part of) there is just Force and light/dark side are extremes. When Luke was asked what techniques lead to dark side he said "All of them".
To quota Kreia herself: "You learned nothing!".
Go play the game again, don't skip dialogues this time tho.
@@Nobody32990 Training is helping to create someone lol. The Force did not make the 2 factions, force sensitive people made it themselves because some fell to the darkside. It's not 2 sides and then there's the force. The Light IS the force. And the darkside is a perversion of the force. And this perversion is abuse and selfish use of the force, that threw it out of balance. It seems the KOTOR devs didn't have a full understanding of Lucas' universe.
Another example is how Revan and Malak got corrupted by the Star Forge but for some reason wasn't corrupted by the darkside....
And the force set things straight when it created Anakin to purge the deskside users, thus bringing balance back.
Kreia is such a great character, and her VA is even more amazing. She has so many great lines, read perfectly, I couldn't choose just one line, but any way "apathy is death".
I do like how at the beginning of kotor 2 you can choose what happened in the first game through a conversation with atton and I especially like how this conversation does not break the fourth wall like the endar spire did in kotor 1.
Great video. Totally agree. My favorite game in the Star Wars universe. 😊
When I was a kid, I bought KOTOR and KOTOR 2 for my Xbox. KOTOR disc didn't work, so I started with 2. I was 9 or 10, and was having a blast, but didn't understand a lot of it. So when I got a replacement KOTOR, I ended up liking it a lot more because it was an epic and more familiar Star Wars story. Years later, my friend who is far more intelligent than me was over and helped me understand it all better.
Long story short, as a kid, the KOTOR games made my infatuation with Star Wars a passion. Between realizing the back stories of my companions, the new worlds, figuring out influence, helping or harming those around me. The game looks rough now, but hearing a character explain something or themselves always got my complete unbroken attention.
Geetsly, this is a love letter to KOTOR, and I hope those who look to make more media for Star Wars see this and know what makes KOTOR 2 special.
The title alone already makes this a banger
There’s something about KOTOR 1 & 2 that for me carry a lot of deep memories from a young age of gaming. I can’t put my finger on it, but it goes farther than just nostalgia, and anytime I fire either game back up it gives me a feeling unlike any other game or movie I’ve ever seen
It’s good writing. Something that is leaving mass entertainment fast.
Why do people say that things were ahead of their time? It is simply wrong. The game was at the very right time. It is only that afterwards there weren't better things. It is like saying that LOTR was ahead of its time just because Rings of Power sucked and weren't better. LOTR was not ahead, it was right at its time.
KOTOR 2 is one of my favorite games ever. I love the first KOTOR just as much, but KOTOR 2 turned everything up a notch. I still remember my first playthrough. I couldn't stop playing the game for days because I just had to see more and more of the story. What I really loved was how it was centered around the Sith Triumvirate which are still 3 of the coolest Sith lords ever designed in Star Wars. The whole idea of these Sith Lords all being wounds in the Force was awesome. Also, you're character literally feels like a Sith Lord, or a Jedi Master towards the end of the game, and seeing how it affects your crew makes it all the more impactful. I also love the graphics in the game, and the improvement in the battle animations as you become more skilled in your journey. KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 are the greatest Star Wars games ever conceived hands down. Nothing comes close, and that means a lot because there are a lot of awesome Star Wars games.