I bought a $300-ish custom, notched up work of art from a small modder and a month later the left stick started to mess up. Now it collects dust in a drawer and I use a crusty silver OEM controller that I bought for $15 a decade ago. It's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to find a good controller.
I gave up on constantly replacing controllers and learned a box-style controller a few years ago. Initial cost: ~$250, but I've never had to replace or fix it over the years.
@@altan5910 plus, because they’re used in so much more than just smash controllers, it’s super easy to just swap out the buttons, sanwas are super easy to find and designed to be swapped in and out by even a beginner. Way more accessible than modding a GC controller
@Jabug_ The silver one has issues too, but it doesn't cause me to SD like the custom one. I appreciate your suggestion, though! I have never used a controller that didn't have some issues with the left stick.
It's interesting that melee, one of the few games that has 360 degree inputs, is usually played with an octagonal gate. While games with 8 directions are played with square/circular gates.
It's something I really appreciate about the Gamecube controller in general. The octagonal gate allows devs to design around the idea that players can easily get 8 very consistent angles on the stick, without sacrificing its precise analog nature.
Top level Melee players are a different breed, man. I can't fathom going so incredibly hard and being on such a different plane of existence that I'd need surgery to repair my hands because they were moving too hard and fast.
It's not that uncommon in competitive gaming, not just Melee. In particular, there's been quite a few Street Fighter players and more than a few Starcraft players forced into retirement due to hand problems.
@@VinceOfAllTrades it's no wonder I always avoided playing so intensely competitively. you lose sight of reality and end up without your hobby or your hands.
its people like Hax$ who do they same exact inputs for 10 hours in training mode that cause the most issues. Same piano players people practicing the same piece hours at a time usually get injury prone repetition and longevity are issues playing games even competitively for even like 5 hours a day your probably going to be fine. Its just the 3 hours in training mode practicing ledge dashes the same inputs CONSTANTLY NO DOWN TIME.
I just want a modern gamecube controller (with the extra missing buttons) that is decent for melee and other fighting games. Something I can use for gamecube, switch and PC. The panda controller was so close, but never made it out the gate. It's really cumbersome needing multiple controllers for different games. Melee is the most obtuse controller in my opinion but I love it so much.
I've been asking Brook for years now to make a Wingman adapter for modern controllers on GameCube (Not just for Melee too, Super GNT4, Mario Kart Wii and Tatsunoko VS Capcom could all use that) Maybe if there's enough demand some of us will end up with Dualsense Edge controllers or others in the future XD
Maybe not GameCube local but I'm enjoying the Gulikit kingKong pro 2 and it feels serviceable for Melee. Works on switch, pc but no GCC plug so only dolphin for GC
Also Analog triggers. I think it's what you want tbh. Only complain online I've seen is lack of back buttons but otherwise I've been loving it since I got it.
12:05 I was casually watching this and did not expect to see one of my videos to be clipped here. I think you did a great job going in depth and describing all of the controllers in an objective way. Great video. 🤝
it's amazing seeing bits and pieces of what I've come to learn about phobs, the Boxx, and the context of that bobby clip, all in one video. Insanely well done! banger video!
www.etsy.com/shop/CadraWorks this guy sells phob mother board's for around 60$ or higher depending on what you want take in consideration if you want to build one you're self you have to buy a soldering station, solder flux, wick or pump remover to get rid of solder and extra enterals from an existing GameCube controller if it's cheaper to buy a fully built phob go for it but if you already have tools ready to go it's better you build one you're self
quick correction (10:50): unless you play on a boxx controller with programmable modification buttons, you can't get a max length wavedash on a boxx style controller. you can get rather long wavedashes but this is a specific nerf that players like hax$ have kept in the b0xx.
@@mattisandersson9661 the boxx has had a set of nerfs throughout its entire lifespan, but I do believe things like sdi nerfs and pivots have been tweaked a bit
Just for the people who want the best option on a budget, the part showcasing that the phob is $500 can vary from modder to modder, if you want to still get a phob without the huge price jump you can just buy a fully assembled phob board itself (of course modder dependent) if you don't know anything about soldering stuff together, buy your cosmetics separately and you can save quite a bit of money that way, it'll take some time on your end if you want to go this route, but if you have the extra cash you can just buy a fully decked out controller. controllers are expensive these days so just a different approach to think about when shopping for these things. Edit: likes are all appreciated, I'm not usually the kind of guy to edit my comments for this thing but couldn't help but say thank you for any likes, happy to help out in some way for newer folks ☺
me and a friend of mine convinced almost half of our local scene to place an order on just the PCBs from china, we are going to do the rest of the work ourselves. The total will probably be around 40 dollars per phob
@@nelsonrodriguez2085 yup with the newer phob motherboards it's gotten a lot cheaper. If you already have a T3 stickbox donor and don't go for custom shells and buttons etc you can easily even do a one off phob for like $50 or less, assuming you have the tools and skills to do so. I've considered building some for others for cheap as well
for those who don’t know phobs and goomwaves are used by basically all top melee players but a lot will still say they’re basically cheating but also it’s hard to implement limits because the community has gone so far in terms of controller tech and community, there’s people who live off modding controllers for melee you can’t just end that.
I think certain mods are definitely cheating(notches, mouseclick buttons, cutting trigger springs, etc.), but fixing the biggest issue with OEM controllers(potentiometer degradation) is a plus. I think most things beyond a hall effects sensor is cheating. It's honestly ASTOUNDING that the community allows notches. I see there being no argument for them, as it is pretty obvious that it is taking away a certain skill and most definitely constitutes cheating.
@@davedanger4414 like the video mentions, shield dropping is such an essential tech in melee’s meta today that notching your controller for consistency is probably the fairest way to go about it, cheating or no. Also it’s not getting rid of a skill floor because of the inconsistency of doing it between controllers, and over time on the same controller.
@@davedanger4414 part of the issue with banning stuff like notches is that because gamecube controllers are so different, even out of the box you can’t regulate a lot of this stuff. If you can find a controller in the wild that has its stick messed up in certain way that makes it perfect for shield dropping, what makes that different from one made to be perfect for it.
@@poiri I'm saying the easy fix is a phob. I don't think putting notches to make things 100% perfect every time is a good thing. You don't even have to have muscle memory. You just throw it in the notch corner and you hit it with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. OEM lottery is not the way and I never insinuated it was the best way. I don't know the general variance between phobs, but it is definitely easier than the majority of OEM controllers.
@@davedanger4414 if you want to ban notches you should think the same way about box style controllers, or at least that they have to be nerfed heavily, but box style controllers are first and foremost an ergonomic alternative for people with hand issues, and i personally view improving the base controller to the level of boxes to be much more preferable to nerfing the boxes to be as inconsistent as controllers. Doesn't everybody want a good controller? Imo phob and goomwave are rly crucial to a level playing field in melee or smash in general. Everybody should have access to 1.0 cardinal dash speeds, consistent shield drops, and good wavedash angles. It shouldn't be a pay-to-win for people who can use box controllers that have macros. Rather, imo everybody should have the priveliges of being able to execute controller-specific or heavily controller dependent tech. At that point, winners of matches, people who succeed in competiton succeed purely because of their skill, and not because of some mixture of their skill and their luck or willingness to spend boatloads of money on a decent and somewhat usable controller.
I have had the same oem controller for about a year now and while it is modded I has been fairly consistent only needing the occasional fix every few months even though I play everyday. I love the thing.
I've wanted s custom for so long and I recently finally got one. It's got a black and neon style arcade colour pallete (with the black parts being glittery) and pink buttons with multicolored outlines. It's covered in Mario Party references like stars and dice blocks and various items, and has arr of Peach front and center (the art itself was a separate commission made to fit the shape of the controller) it was about 400 bucks CAD.
I got mad respect for people goin all out with their controllers to find the perfect fit for themselves! Im in the process in modding my old Razer Atrox fightstick to a leverless, and with new more responsive buttons and new artwork Ive made myself! Im so hyped to get this project goin'! Just waiting for my parts to arrive
Amazing video! If I had one thing to add, it is that I wish you would have included a segment on Hax $'s 1.03 patch which is basically an extension to UCF. It fixes a lot of the problems of unmodded controllers & levels the playing field a little with regards to the boxx controllers. I think it's a great & scalable solution since it's openly available and a software mod, not a hardware mod. I can really recommend Hax $'s videos, where he elaborates on this and which few mods he would recommend on 1.03, most of which can be done by the average Joe, I'd argue. Keep up the great videos~
After 10 years of controller after controller breaking i switched to box So when people give me shit over it i just assume they dont know really know much about melee and havent been playing very long
Also as a semi-outsider/smash melee noob, I REALLY don’t understand the B0XX hate. For one thing, learning it is the most unintuitive and difficult way to play smash in the beginning. It would take months just to get to the level you were at with GC controller. I think getting over that learning curve should be commended, so why are peeps salty when they’re using modded GC controllers with notches, easier button presses, completely different motherboards and whathaveyou? Just look at the FGC, you don’t see them whining about how fight sticks are better than gamepad (excluding the hitbox conversation but shhh) Overall, as someone who’s seen a lot of discussion over B0XX controllers but isn’t nearly good enough to have a first hand opinion, *embrace evolution. Stop bitching and play the game.*
Smash noob over here- I appreciate the level of depth you went into with your explanations! This video convinced me to look into the B0XX cuz ergonomics :)
A GameCube style controller is hands down the best 3D platform, action/adventure, sports, and rpg controller ever made. The only two genres I can think of that I prefer a different controller is FPS and fighting games
It's crazy that players sacrificing flexibility for consistency are looked down upon for making that trade. Like it literally just gives them less options and they're still called cheaters despite that.
IMO the perfect controller would be a better version of sony's DS4, with individual d-pad buttons rather than a single pad and a sloped back half so the trigger area doesn't cut into your hands. Maybe the right side face buttons could be diagonally staggered and there could be six of them. Aligning the analog sticks diagonally like Xbox or Sony's dumb new mobile controller is unergonomic and prevents claw-grip for the d-pad so keep the Sony mirror-image alignment. No leds or Motion sensor for a 24 hour battery too. I'd buy in a heartbeat ngl.
love the recent melee doc content recently & really cool topic to have covered on your channel. 2 small gripes, goomwaves feel like they got a lil unneccessarily dunked on. afaik they've never been banned @ any majors, & there's still top players who use them. and i don't think i've ever met a single modder who would claim that they've made "a lot of money" off their work. otherwise really liked the editing & all the bits, and i thought it was a great piece on controllers & the discourse around it
Boxx players get too much hate fr you know how hard it is just to figure out how to use the thing at all it's like relearning the whole game and it was meant to help people with hand conditions and to minimize pain not to make the game easier, anyone complaining about it go get one and see if you're still nearly as good with it as a gamecube controller that shit takes practice and skill
I get your points and i don't complain about boxx users, but we can't use the idea that it's for people with hand conditions when so many people are just switching because they're sick of the endless perfect controller quest.
I don’t see why there is so much hatred of the Boxx. The gamecube controller wasn’t designed for consistency or competitive melee while the boxx was. in competitive rowing we aren’t still using wooden symmetrical oars because the design has evolved to be more consistent and functional
Ik people think boxes are cheating, but as a box player that played on controller (and also someone that plays a nunber of different fighting games), it isn't? The amount of time and effort it takes to learn a box controller is way way more than it takes to learn a gc controller, and just because the inputs are perfect, doesn't mean the human is. Ny reaction time is insanely slow, and I can only play for an hour or two of hardcore gaming on a pad before my hands can't keep going, and having an ergonomic layout and something that makes things a little bit snappier is greatly appreciated. Plus, they sound nice, and you can build your own from just the parts and I think it helps build an important bond with your controller (ik it sounds weird but if you don't love your controller, you won't play at your peak imo). They're the onpy controllers, really, that you actually have to think about what buttons to press, and their size means more travel time for your wrists sometimes, you can't really have all the buttons available to your fingers comfortably at any moment. I do think it's flatout better than gcc -- if you can learn it WELL. But it's like the difference between optimal and nonoptimal combos; if you're more comfortable with the nonoptimal one, than the optimal one isn't gonna help you or just make you better. The game is still insanely difficult, and the controllers are becoming more and more accessible anyway (mine was 100 bucks). Boxx isn't cheating, it's simply trying to take human skill and push it a bit further, imo.
I switched to a Smash Box. I underestimated how much I relied on notches for my inputs and how bad my inputs were. No modern controllers had them and I wasn't about to shell out a bunch of money for a custom GC controller when I suck with analog inputs anyway.
Recently I've been playing a lot of Smash Remix on the 64, and my go-to controller started drifting and it really bothered me. I changed controllers and it was such a breath of fresh air
i thought the gc controller was dead- glad to see its actually quite reviered. its very comfy for games made for it. i got 3 second hand and canibalizsed 2 knock-offs with huge analogue dead zones to replace the button rubbers except the d-pad that didn't like the firmer upgrade!
The same story with the Leverless Controllers in fighting games... everything was being modded before and those improvements were right but when they went a step beyond that and got better results community got mad and wanted it to be illegal...
There is something you missed about phobs: the magnets aren't fragile or whatever, but the 1.X version had issues about how you had to install the USB board on the custom motherboard, which gave issues even months after you got the controller from the modder. The new version, the 2.X, fixed this issue around january of this year, so basically 5 months ago. If your 2.0 phob gives issues, it's because the modder can't do even basic jobs. It still uses magnets and whatever, but the problem wasnt about magnets in first place. Obviously the magnet mounts shouldn't be printed in resin because it's fragile, but PLA, a more solid material, is way more common in 3D printing. I use for my controller and the ones I mod nylon mounts which have glued magnets and it's glued to the stickbox. Doing so I've never had any complaints
Where can i go to have a PlayStation 2 controller custom modded? There's a game i play from time to time and i feel that the controller is holding me back from kicking butt perfectly.
I have one single argument for controllers in a esport setting. I think that the controllers needs to be standardized. If we compare esport to actual sport like hockey, tennis, football, pool, etc the difference is clear. All equipment used in regular sports are standardized. Sure you have different brands or wtv. But the diffrence is trivial compared to controllers in esport. You need rules and standardized equipments or people will never take it too seriously imo. Look a the top 3 esport for example. CSGO, LoL, Dota. They all use mouse and keyboard, end of story. No controversial modded controller or wtv. I think it's important that every player have the same advantages on the playing field.
But there are a ton of people with handicaps, performing in fighting games who need specific periferals. It should be standardized, which option of inputs are possible.
Really says a lot that my terribly abused black controller from when I was 8 years old still works better than the joycon I dropped once. Also, don't get me started on the wavebird. That lil thing works perfectly from across the room, even reads inputs without delay when I'm in a different room, and my Dualshock 4 can't sit four feet away from my PS4 wothout suffering severe seperation anxiety. Also got a steal from Gamestop, the one time the online store dodn't let me down. Bought a preowned controller for $30. They sent me a genuine, pristine condition Melee controller that looked like it was brand new. While the wireless Switch controller is okay, my biggest gripes are that it's super lightweight, very cheap feeling, and really, REALLY noisy. I'd just prefer it if I could mod one of my old controllers with the needed buttons and forgoe the wireless entirely.
For anyone watching who is curious, you can build your own Phob for $150 - $200. PhobGCC motherboards are literally $17. If you already have a soldering kit it can be done for even less.
Should probably add that Phobs have gotten cheaper and easier to make with 2.0. And the cost of getting 5 PCBs (the minimum from the PCB manufacturer) is about 200-250USD, after that you just need tools, cables, magnets, magnet holders and donar controllers. you can then additionally add tactical buttons and Phobvision (a way to get controller information onto a CRT and easy calibration). Took me about 20h to make my first one, but I spent around 11h fixing with the face button cuse they need to be very annoyingly precisely filed down to fit the tactical switches. Also spent a lot of time trying to fix Phobvision which the issue for me might just be that my CRT might not be able take an NTSC signal (I European). It was my first time doing any solder work at all.
After going through PODE within 4 different controllers now. I've decided to make my own Phob. I know I don't have $500 sitting around to get a Phob and soldering isn't hard.
I am not a smash player but hot damn the dedication to controller modding that community has gets me bricked up. Now if only I could find a good bluetooth GC controller with hall effect sensors for my PC. I know about nyxi but I dont want to have to keep 2 USB cables attached to the thing to charge it. PS: I play fighters with a keyboard so I instantly made a hitbox as soon as I knew they were a thing. I am also nowhere near good enough for even unranked online play.
The upcoming Nyxi Warrior might be what you're after! One controller, with one USB-C cable, not a joycon pair. I don't think there are any reviews yet (it's still only in preorder) but I think it looks promising.
The only problem I have with the GC Controller is the grips. They are flat on the sides, and long hours of continous play does a number on the hands. If only people made custom GCs in special configs like round grips or different stick orientations like a Playstation stick layout. The thing that makes people switch to something like a Hitbox is the extreme hand pain the normal GC controller gives, especially when you have to play relatively fast in Melee.
crazy to me they decided the goom controller wasnt the way the game was meant to be played but a box controller that’s proven to have advantages is totally acceptable. Nothing but OG hardware and OG software should be allowed imo
I've been wanting to upgrade from a GC controller for a while now but the prices man... woah... I had hopes with the Panda controller but that project is gone... No that I use a super technical character (ICs) but still...
It's kinda like the people who want to be a bowler, you could go and just rent a bowling ball and be casual, or you can buy your own custom ultra top of the line bowling ball and Shoes and be top tier. Being a pro can be expensive, but pays off if you're successful
It's my headcanon that the GameCube controller doesn't have a decent D-Pad and a second shoulder button because it would be unfair to other controllers to even compete. I miss the octagonal-shaped hole around the stick. On every other controller, when I hold forward it's always at an angle. Except for the GameCube and the Wii Nunchuk and Classic controller.
I hope to be good enough one day to notice a difference between my $30 USB pro-controller-disguised-as-gamecube-controller monstrosity and a $500 precision tooled tournament winning art piece.
From what I can see...the gamecube controller is the best controller for Smash Bros Melee. But is it better for any other games? Because I honestly don't see how it isn't any better than a generic Xbox controller outside of melee
Another reason other than being cracked at the game to mod a controller is just because it's super fun! I love making my own stuff, have built my own pc keyboard and headphones in the past, and play smash like a tryhard casual. I am currently decking out my smash 4 gcc both because I enjoy smash, and because I find it fun. Just thought I'd mention my own perspective because you guys made it sound like getting a decked out controller is pointless unless you're taking smash seriously. I get that it kinda is, and it's overkill as can be, but for some, its not about the controller, but the experience of making it.
I don't play Melee, but I play Ultimate competitively. I wonder what PHOB equivalent would be for a Ultimate controller. Would love to make one myself.
I ordered 2 super cool and nasty Custom Gamecube Controllers that featured art fromy my favorite games. Only 1 of them ever arrived😔. And as much as i love my Joker one, im sad i couldnt get the other one which was based on Claude from Fire Emblem.
damn, the Goomwave sounded like the perfect controller for me. Melee's tap to jump couldn't be disabled like it could in future games so uptilts were always too hard with my disability. :/ kinda sucks that whenever an accessible controller comes out, it's basically a coin flip on whether it'll get banned for "cheating".
I bought a $300-ish custom, notched up work of art from a small modder and a month later the left stick started to mess up. Now it collects dust in a drawer and I use a crusty silver OEM controller that I bought for $15 a decade ago. It's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to find a good controller.
I gave up on constantly replacing controllers and learned a box-style controller a few years ago. Initial cost: ~$250, but I've never had to replace or fix it over the years.
@@altan5910 plus, because they’re used in so much more than just smash controllers, it’s super easy to just swap out the buttons, sanwas are super easy to find and designed to be swapped in and out by even a beginner. Way more accessible than modding a GC controller
Yea I’d consider moving the good stick box from the old one to the new one but desoldering can be a pain the ass
@Jabug_ The silver one has issues too, but it doesn't cause me to SD like the custom one. I appreciate your suggestion, though! I have never used a controller that didn't have some issues with the left stick.
@@jabug_1144 notches wouldn't work anymore then, he would need to get a new faceplate notched to the new stickbox
It's interesting that melee, one of the few games that has 360 degree inputs, is usually played with an octagonal gate. While games with 8 directions are played with square/circular gates.
It's something I really appreciate about the Gamecube controller in general. The octagonal gate allows devs to design around the idea that players can easily get 8 very consistent angles on the stick, without sacrificing its precise analog nature.
Great video that explains the differences in controllers to people outside the Smash bubble! Glad you enjoyed playing on my B0XX hehe.
Just wanna give a quick shoutout to Christina Applegate!
Top level Melee players are a different breed, man.
I can't fathom going so incredibly hard and being on such a different plane of existence that I'd need surgery to repair my hands because they were moving too hard and fast.
It's not that uncommon in competitive gaming, not just Melee. In particular, there's been quite a few Street Fighter players and more than a few Starcraft players forced into retirement due to hand problems.
@@VinceOfAllTrades it's no wonder I always avoided playing so intensely competitively. you lose sight of reality and end up without your hobby or your hands.
I suck and I severely and permanently injured my hand, bad genetics and being dumb enough to push through pain will mess you up
@@bullydungeon9631 yeah sadly not the craziest thing, fortnite gave me carpal tunnel at 16 lmfaoo
its people like Hax$ who do they same exact inputs for 10 hours in training mode that cause the most issues. Same piano players people practicing the same piece hours at a time usually get injury prone repetition and longevity are issues playing games even competitively for even like 5 hours a day your probably going to be fine. Its just the 3 hours in training mode practicing ledge dashes the same inputs CONSTANTLY NO DOWN TIME.
Surprised they haven't made a customized motherboard shape with custom frame for a different layout of buttons and stick
Don’t let them see this
Surely someone’s working on it.
I'd pay money for a modern controller latyout and shell with GCC parts
They even did this with the pro controller ahaha Look for ProGCC, it's basically a PhobGCC inside a pro controller
PhobNES is in the makings
I just want a modern gamecube controller (with the extra missing buttons) that is decent for melee and other fighting games. Something I can use for gamecube, switch and PC. The panda controller was so close, but never made it out the gate.
It's really cumbersome needing multiple controllers for different games. Melee is the most obtuse controller in my opinion but I love it so much.
I've been asking Brook for years now to make a Wingman adapter for modern controllers on GameCube (Not just for Melee too, Super GNT4, Mario Kart Wii and Tatsunoko VS Capcom could all use that)
Maybe if there's enough demand some of us will end up with Dualsense Edge controllers or others in the future XD
Maybe not GameCube local but I'm enjoying the Gulikit kingKong pro 2 and it feels serviceable for Melee. Works on switch, pc but no GCC plug so only dolphin for GC
Magnetic sticks btw, and gyro for switch
Also Analog triggers. I think it's what you want tbh. Only complain online I've seen is lack of back buttons but otherwise I've been loving it since I got it.
Just get a standard one
12:05 I was casually watching this and did not expect to see one of my videos to be clipped here.
I think you did a great job going in depth and describing all of the controllers in an objective way. Great video. 🤝
Their citation should have been much clearer.
it's amazing seeing bits and pieces of what I've come to learn about phobs, the Boxx, and the context of that bobby clip, all in one video.
Insanely well done! banger video!
500$ for a phob is crazy. I regularly build phobs (including the price of a new smash ult controller) for around 70€
Could you direct me to where I can buy one?
Pls tell us where to buy
Yes, I 3rd that, tell us where to buy, friend. :3
you cant just say you buld phobs for 70euro and not drop a link
www.etsy.com/shop/CadraWorks this guy sells phob mother board's for around 60$ or higher depending on what you want take in consideration if you want to build one you're self you have to buy a soldering station, solder flux, wick or pump remover to get rid of solder and extra enterals from an existing GameCube controller if it's cheaper to buy a fully built phob go for it but if you already have tools ready to go it's better you build one you're self
quick correction (10:50): unless you play on a boxx controller with programmable modification buttons, you can't get a max length wavedash on a boxx style controller. you can get rather long wavedashes but this is a specific nerf that players like hax$ have kept in the b0xx.
Can confirm any pleb on a GCC can hit longer wavedashes than me
Especially with notches
I think you used to, but since boxx controllers have gotten a lot of complains hax$ did nerf alot of fix in software patches
@@mattisandersson9661 the boxx has had a set of nerfs throughout its entire lifespan, but I do believe things like sdi nerfs and pivots have been tweaked a bit
When you were showing your controller at the beginning, all i could think was "are you familiar with the ship of Theseus?"
the better question is why his left stick is also a cstick, although i made the same mod to mine though
Just for the people who want the best option on a budget, the part showcasing that the phob is $500 can vary from modder to modder, if you want to still get a phob without the huge price jump you can just buy a fully assembled phob board itself (of course modder dependent) if you don't know anything about soldering stuff together, buy your cosmetics separately and you can save quite a bit of money that way, it'll take some time on your end if you want to go this route, but if you have the extra cash you can just buy a fully decked out controller.
controllers are expensive these days so just a different approach to think about when shopping for these things.
Edit: likes are all appreciated, I'm not usually the kind of guy to edit my comments for this thing but couldn't help but say thank you for any likes, happy to help out in some way for newer folks ☺
me and a friend of mine convinced almost half of our local scene to place an order on just the PCBs from china, we are going to do the rest of the work ourselves.
The total will probably be around 40 dollars per phob
@@nelsonrodriguez2085 yup with the newer phob motherboards it's gotten a lot cheaper. If you already have a T3 stickbox donor and don't go for custom shells and buttons etc you can easily even do a one off phob for like $50 or less, assuming you have the tools and skills to do so. I've considered building some for others for cheap as well
Well said 😆
@@trevorhannan6428 why hello there lol
for those who don’t know phobs and goomwaves are used by basically all top melee players but a lot will still say they’re basically cheating but also it’s hard to implement limits because the community has gone so far in terms of controller tech and community, there’s people who live off modding controllers for melee you can’t just end that.
I think certain mods are definitely cheating(notches, mouseclick buttons, cutting trigger springs, etc.), but fixing the biggest issue with OEM controllers(potentiometer degradation) is a plus. I think most things beyond a hall effects sensor is cheating. It's honestly ASTOUNDING that the community allows notches. I see there being no argument for them, as it is pretty obvious that it is taking away a certain skill and most definitely constitutes cheating.
@@davedanger4414 like the video mentions, shield dropping is such an essential tech in melee’s meta today that notching your controller for consistency is probably the fairest way to go about it, cheating or no. Also it’s not getting rid of a skill floor because of the inconsistency of doing it between controllers, and over time on the same controller.
@@davedanger4414 part of the issue with banning stuff like notches is that because gamecube controllers are so different, even out of the box you can’t regulate a lot of this stuff. If you can find a controller in the wild that has its stick messed up in certain way that makes it perfect for shield dropping, what makes that different from one made to be perfect for it.
@@poiri I'm saying the easy fix is a phob. I don't think putting notches to make things 100% perfect every time is a good thing. You don't even have to have muscle memory. You just throw it in the notch corner and you hit it with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. OEM lottery is not the way and I never insinuated it was the best way. I don't know the general variance between phobs, but it is definitely easier than the majority of OEM controllers.
@@davedanger4414 if you want to ban notches you should think the same way about box style controllers, or at least that they have to be nerfed heavily, but box style controllers are first and foremost an ergonomic alternative for people with hand issues, and i personally view improving the base controller to the level of boxes to be much more preferable to nerfing the boxes to be as inconsistent as controllers. Doesn't everybody want a good controller? Imo phob and goomwave are rly crucial to a level playing field in melee or smash in general. Everybody should have access to 1.0 cardinal dash speeds, consistent shield drops, and good wavedash angles. It shouldn't be a pay-to-win for people who can use box controllers that have macros. Rather, imo everybody should have the priveliges of being able to execute controller-specific or heavily controller dependent tech. At that point, winners of matches, people who succeed in competiton succeed purely because of their skill, and not because of some mixture of their skill and their luck or willingness to spend boatloads of money on a decent and somewhat usable controller.
I have had the same oem controller for about a year now and while it is modded I has been fairly consistent only needing the occasional fix every few months even though I play everyday. I love the thing.
impressive, let's see Paul Allen's controller
My hair is slightly better though
I've wanted s custom for so long and I recently finally got one. It's got a black and neon style arcade colour pallete (with the black parts being glittery) and pink buttons with multicolored outlines. It's covered in Mario Party references like stars and dice blocks and various items, and has arr of Peach front and center (the art itself was a separate commission made to fit the shape of the controller) it was about 400 bucks CAD.
I got mad respect for people goin all out with their controllers to find the perfect fit for themselves! Im in the process in modding my old Razer Atrox fightstick to a leverless, and with new more responsive buttons and new artwork Ive made myself! Im so hyped to get this project goin'! Just waiting for my parts to arrive
A decent phob doesn't even have to cost that much money either, the guy at your local will always be the best deal (if they know what they're doing)
Amazing video!
If I had one thing to add, it is that I wish you would have included a segment on Hax $'s 1.03 patch which is basically an extension to UCF. It fixes a lot of the problems of unmodded controllers & levels the playing field a little with regards to the boxx controllers. I think it's a great & scalable solution since it's openly available and a software mod, not a hardware mod. I can really recommend Hax $'s videos, where he elaborates on this and which few mods he would recommend on 1.03, most of which can be done by the average Joe, I'd argue.
Keep up the great videos~
After 10 years of controller after controller breaking i switched to box
So when people give me shit over it i just assume they dont know really know much about melee and havent been playing very long
Also as a semi-outsider/smash melee noob, I REALLY don’t understand the B0XX hate. For one thing, learning it is the most unintuitive and difficult way to play smash in the beginning. It would take months just to get to the level you were at with GC controller. I think getting over that learning curve should be commended, so why are peeps salty when they’re using modded GC controllers with notches, easier button presses, completely different motherboards and whathaveyou? Just look at the FGC, you don’t see them whining about how fight sticks are better than gamepad (excluding the hitbox conversation but shhh)
Overall, as someone who’s seen a lot of discussion over B0XX controllers but isn’t nearly good enough to have a first hand opinion, *embrace evolution. Stop bitching and play the game.*
Years of watching and this channel has yet to disappoint
Smash noob over here- I appreciate the level of depth you went into with your explanations! This video convinced me to look into the B0XX cuz ergonomics :)
I don't really ever play melee, but I think I might start just so I can use a boxx controller and make melee players angry
A GameCube style controller is hands down the best 3D platform, action/adventure, sports, and rpg controller ever made. The only two genres I can think of that I prefer a different controller is FPS and fighting games
It's crazy that players sacrificing flexibility for consistency are looked down upon for making that trade. Like it literally just gives them less options and they're still called cheaters despite that.
IMO the perfect controller would be a better version of sony's DS4, with individual d-pad buttons rather than a single pad and a sloped back half so the trigger area doesn't cut into your hands. Maybe the right side face buttons could be diagonally staggered and there could be six of them. Aligning the analog sticks diagonally like Xbox or Sony's dumb new mobile controller is unergonomic and prevents claw-grip for the d-pad so keep the Sony mirror-image alignment. No leds or Motion sensor for a 24 hour battery too. I'd buy in a heartbeat ngl.
Surely there are usb to GameCube controller adapters right?
love the recent melee doc content recently & really cool topic to have covered on your channel. 2 small gripes, goomwaves feel like they got a lil unneccessarily dunked on. afaik they've never been banned @ any majors, & there's still top players who use them. and i don't think i've ever met a single modder who would claim that they've made "a lot of money" off their work. otherwise really liked the editing & all the bits, and i thought it was a great piece on controllers & the discourse around it
Mango and fiction I know still use goomwaves
i read goomwaves as “groomwaves” at a glance and thought ‘well duh, this is the smash community we’re talking about’
Boxx players get too much hate fr you know how hard it is just to figure out how to use the thing at all it's like relearning the whole game and it was meant to help people with hand conditions and to minimize pain not to make the game easier, anyone complaining about it go get one and see if you're still nearly as good with it as a gamecube controller that shit takes practice and skill
I get your points and i don't complain about boxx users, but we can't use the idea that it's for people with hand conditions when so many people are just switching because they're sick of the endless perfect controller quest.
I don’t see why there is so much hatred of the Boxx. The gamecube controller wasn’t designed for consistency or competitive melee while the boxx was. in competitive rowing we aren’t still using wooden symmetrical oars because the design has evolved to be more consistent and functional
Macros. Its macros
Who woulda thought this game would’ve gone this far since it came out. I remember staying up to play the All-Star mode like it was yesterday.
Ik people think boxes are cheating, but as a box player that played on controller (and also someone that plays a nunber of different fighting games), it isn't? The amount of time and effort it takes to learn a box controller is way way more than it takes to learn a gc controller, and just because the inputs are perfect, doesn't mean the human is. Ny reaction time is insanely slow, and I can only play for an hour or two of hardcore gaming on a pad before my hands can't keep going, and having an ergonomic layout and something that makes things a little bit snappier is greatly appreciated.
Plus, they sound nice, and you can build your own from just the parts and I think it helps build an important bond with your controller (ik it sounds weird but if you don't love your controller, you won't play at your peak imo). They're the onpy controllers, really, that you actually have to think about what buttons to press, and their size means more travel time for your wrists sometimes, you can't really have all the buttons available to your fingers comfortably at any moment. I do think it's flatout better than gcc -- if you can learn it WELL. But it's like the difference between optimal and nonoptimal combos; if you're more comfortable with the nonoptimal one, than the optimal one isn't gonna help you or just make you better. The game is still insanely difficult, and the controllers are becoming more and more accessible anyway (mine was 100 bucks). Boxx isn't cheating, it's simply trying to take human skill and push it a bit further, imo.
15:12 Big A jumpscare 😨
I switched to a Smash Box. I underestimated how much I relied on notches for my inputs and how bad my inputs were. No modern controllers had them and I wasn't about to shell out a bunch of money for a custom GC controller when I suck with analog inputs anyway.
Recently I've been playing a lot of Smash Remix on the 64, and my go-to controller started drifting and it really bothered me. I changed controllers and it was such a breath of fresh air
i thought the gc controller was dead- glad to see its actually quite reviered. its very comfy for games made for it. i got 3 second hand and canibalizsed 2 knock-offs with huge analogue dead zones to replace the button rubbers except the d-pad that didn't like the firmer upgrade!
the boxx is literally the keyboard for a gamecube controller
The same story with the Leverless Controllers in fighting games... everything was being modded before and those improvements were right but when they went a step beyond that and got better results community got mad and wanted it to be illegal...
i’m convinced there’s no better feeling on earth than to press down the triggers on a base model gamecube controller.
Phobs DO NOT need to cost $500, and can be easily obtained for much cheaper, finding phobs in the $100-$200(CAD) isn't terribly difficult
been on a rectangle for about a year now shit is so fuckin cracked
This is an amazing video, very indepth and interesting for an outsider to the melee game
There is something you missed about phobs: the magnets aren't fragile or whatever, but the 1.X version had issues about how you had to install the USB board on the custom motherboard, which gave issues even months after you got the controller from the modder. The new version, the 2.X, fixed this issue around january of this year, so basically 5 months ago. If your 2.0 phob gives issues, it's because the modder can't do even basic jobs. It still uses magnets and whatever, but the problem wasnt about magnets in first place. Obviously the magnet mounts shouldn't be printed in resin because it's fragile, but PLA, a more solid material, is way more common in 3D printing. I use for my controller and the ones I mod nylon mounts which have glued magnets and it's glued to the stickbox. Doing so I've never had any complaints
Where can i go to have a PlayStation 2 controller custom modded? There's a game i play from time to time and i feel that the controller is holding me back from kicking butt perfectly.
I have one single argument for controllers in a esport setting. I think that the controllers needs to be standardized. If we compare esport to actual sport like hockey, tennis, football, pool, etc the difference is clear. All equipment used in regular sports are standardized. Sure you have different brands or wtv. But the diffrence is trivial compared to controllers in esport. You need rules and standardized equipments or people will never take it too seriously imo. Look a the top 3 esport for example. CSGO, LoL, Dota. They all use mouse and keyboard, end of story. No controversial modded controller or wtv. I think it's important that every player have the same advantages on the playing field.
But there are a ton of people with handicaps, performing in fighting games who need specific periferals.
It should be standardized, which option of inputs are possible.
Honestly, all of it should be allowed.
Really says a lot that my terribly abused black controller from when I was 8 years old still works better than the joycon I dropped once.
Also, don't get me started on the wavebird. That lil thing works perfectly from across the room, even reads inputs without delay when I'm in a different room, and my Dualshock 4 can't sit four feet away from my PS4 wothout suffering severe seperation anxiety.
Also got a steal from Gamestop, the one time the online store dodn't let me down. Bought a preowned controller for $30. They sent me a genuine, pristine condition Melee controller that looked like it was brand new.
While the wireless Switch controller is okay, my biggest gripes are that it's super lightweight, very cheap feeling, and really, REALLY noisy. I'd just prefer it if I could mod one of my old controllers with the needed buttons and forgoe the wireless entirely.
I have to say big respect for the quality and research of the content
Your buddies got rocked with that pricing.
I came to ask wtf is going on with the thumbnail drawings lol
“You can tell it’s a box because of the way it is” lmfao
For anyone watching who is curious, you can build your own Phob for $150 - $200. PhobGCC motherboards are literally $17. If you already have a soldering kit it can be done for even less.
Should probably add that Phobs have gotten cheaper and easier to make with 2.0. And the cost of getting 5 PCBs (the minimum from the PCB manufacturer) is about 200-250USD, after that you just need tools, cables, magnets, magnet holders and donar controllers. you can then additionally add tactical buttons and Phobvision (a way to get controller information onto a CRT and easy calibration). Took me about 20h to make my first one, but I spent around 11h fixing with the face button cuse they need to be very annoyingly precisely filed down to fit the tactical switches. Also spent a lot of time trying to fix Phobvision which the issue for me might just be that my CRT might not be able take an NTSC signal (I European). It was my first time doing any solder work at all.
I heard a rumor that god made the gamecube controller first and then designed the human hand to fit around it
Bro that phob is NOT worth $500, not even $200. Your boy got ROBBED 😂😂😂
It was done by Nez. Shit will last yrs
After going through PODE within 4 different controllers now. I've decided to make my own Phob. I know I don't have $500 sitting around to get a Phob and soldering isn't hard.
my only gripe with the gamecube controller is the lack of a second shoulder button lmao
I am not a smash player but hot damn the dedication to controller modding that community has gets me bricked up.
Now if only I could find a good bluetooth GC controller with hall effect sensors for my PC. I know about nyxi but I dont want to have to keep 2 USB cables attached to the thing to charge it.
PS: I play fighters with a keyboard so I instantly made a hitbox as soon as I knew they were a thing. I am also nowhere near good enough for even unranked online play.
The upcoming Nyxi Warrior might be what you're after! One controller, with one USB-C cable, not a joycon pair. I don't think there are any reviews yet (it's still only in preorder) but I think it looks promising.
Building a custom phob is just the best, getting a controller that you can use for everything is super consistent and will last you decades
The only problem I have with the GC Controller is the grips. They are flat on the sides, and long hours of continous play does a number on the hands. If only people made custom GCs in special configs like round grips or different stick orientations like a Playstation stick layout. The thing that makes people switch to something like a Hitbox is the extreme hand pain the normal GC controller gives, especially when you have to play relatively fast in Melee.
Amazing vidéo, loved it !
14:03 I really need to find that Fox sound effect
Its hilarious
Isn't the box controller basically a keyboard with less keys?
crazy to me they decided the goom controller wasnt the way the game was meant to be played but a box controller that’s proven to have advantages is totally acceptable. Nothing but OG hardware and OG software should be allowed imo
Me laughing with my office keyboard
Phobs aren't always that expensive btw! Tommy just kinda got scammed :P
Me who plays with Joycons from the thrift store [the left one has stick drift allowing for perfect Shield Drops] for $20.00 👁️👄👁️
Let’s see Paul Allen’s game cube controller
I've been wanting to upgrade from a GC controller for a while now but the prices man... woah... I had hopes with the Panda controller but that project is gone... No that I use a super technical character (ICs) but still...
It's kinda like the people who want to be a bowler, you could go and just rent a bowling ball and be casual, or you can buy your own custom ultra top of the line bowling ball and Shoes and be top tier. Being a pro can be expensive, but pays off if you're successful
taht's great... let's see Paul allen's controller...
Competitive Melee is so freaking cool!
Are u guys gonna cover the current state of Overwatch 2?
Yes please!!
no use in talking bad about a game that u have a relationship with the league with
It's my headcanon that the GameCube controller doesn't have a decent D-Pad and a second shoulder button because it would be unfair to other controllers to even compete.
I miss the octagonal-shaped hole around the stick. On every other controller, when I hold forward it's always at an angle. Except for the GameCube and the Wii Nunchuk and Classic controller.
got jumpscared by the Neature Walk reference at 9:00 but I very much appreciate it
Nice, but my xbox one controller can play dmc, so is that really the perfect controller? Checkmate smasheists
This is some real sweaty stuff right here dang what a rabbit hole of a topic
I didn't realize that the akshon esports used to be 7. I thought that you were better than that.
Xbox controllers are the best for shooters. Feel good, form to the hands well. And can play other games well.
tbf you can find modders that will throw a phob in a shell you have for 100 bucks.
Its almost like this children's party game was never meant to be competitive
why did you show hax's face of all people when mentioning people who endorse it? have you done any research at all into ucf and 1.03?
I hope to be good enough one day to notice a difference between my $30 USB pro-controller-disguised-as-gamecube-controller monstrosity and a $500 precision tooled tournament winning art piece.
Man, one day I might get a box, mostly because if I have to MOD my GameCube controller, then yeah I’m getting one of those one day.
God I wish the panda global controller saw the light of day 😢
15:25 gamer Michael Cera got rly excited.
From what I can see...the gamecube controller is the best controller for Smash Bros Melee.
But is it better for any other games?
Because I honestly don't see how it isn't any better than a generic Xbox controller outside of melee
For newer Nintendo games I would rather use that then ever touch the joy-cons again
1:47 20 dollars is equivalent to 109 bucks in Brazil
Shield dropping was mastered and popularized by aMSa not Plup.
i would argue Axe / the Axe method is what popularized it.
oh hey thats my controller at 10:35 lol
in case anyone was wondering I now have 3 jmook signatures on it
Another reason other than being cracked at the game to mod a controller is just because it's super fun! I love making my own stuff, have built my own pc keyboard and headphones in the past, and play smash like a tryhard casual. I am currently decking out my smash 4 gcc both because I enjoy smash, and because I find it fun. Just thought I'd mention my own perspective because you guys made it sound like getting a decked out controller is pointless unless you're taking smash seriously. I get that it kinda is, and it's overkill as can be, but for some, its not about the controller, but the experience of making it.
I've been trying to find the song playing at the beginning for a while.
Google thinks it's a shitpost called "the soft boy shuffle"
I love the boxx I have , a friend made it out of a cardboard box and keyboard keys
Me who mains a duelsense controller for luls.
13:55
How do you know that this exact source code is installed on the chip?
I don't play Melee, but I play Ultimate competitively. I wonder what PHOB equivalent would be for a Ultimate controller. Would love to make one myself.
God damned it. Should have watched this video first before going in that submarine
The moment I heard him compare a gamecube controller to a ferrari i knew i was dealing with a verified non showering melee virgin.
Jmook will be examining this shortly
I ordered 2 super cool and nasty Custom Gamecube Controllers that featured art fromy my favorite games.
Only 1 of them ever arrived😔.
And as much as i love my Joker one, im sad i couldnt get the other one which was based on Claude from Fire Emblem.
damn, the Goomwave sounded like the perfect controller for me. Melee's tap to jump couldn't be disabled like it could in future games so uptilts were always too hard with my disability. :/ kinda sucks that whenever an accessible controller comes out, it's basically a coin flip on whether it'll get banned for "cheating".
I will always love the dreamcast controller.
“And boxes are tournament legal”
For now