Does the Dash Button Make Games Too Easy?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- #guiltygear #guiltygearstrive #fightinggames
People are asking for a dash shortcut for more fighting games, but there is push back against it. Who's right?
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In most modern games nowadays, you press a button to dash / roll / dodge / sprint. It's just far more intuitive than double pressing. That's why every fps game has shift to sprint instead of making you double tap w. Or why Dark Souls has a roll button. Etc. I can understand if you can't put a dash button for legacy mechanical or balance reasons, but if at all possible, a dash button should probably be in every new fighting game.
why would controls in other genres have anything to do with the mechanics of a fighting game
@@tyler-xo3rb Why wouldn't any game learn from the lessons of its contemporaries? Plenty of games from other genres are encouraged to borrow elements from beyond its genre. Why is being inspired by other genres a bad thing?
If fighting games were just compared within the genre, we wouldn't need rollback netcode. Or cross play. Or better UX.
There are clear reasons why modern games have adapted a separate button for special movement options rather than having players double-tap a direction. Fighting games should learn from these innovations.
Something else to consider, is that a dash macro needs a button mapped to it, so in a game with 6 buttons like SFV, there are only 2 macros remaining, and they are generally used for 3 punches/kicks. And you generally don't dash too much in Street Fighter, so I don't think SFVI needs it.
Yeah I don't think it's as important/useful to have as it is in games where you need to be able to IAD
Good point. Though depending on the character, losing one of the triple inputs for dash convenience might be worth having as an extra mapping option.
All super motions are, afaik, unique so they could map the supers to trigger using heavy punch + heavy kick button for supers instead of triple punch/kick.
@@AnnCatsanndra yeah, I actually face a similar dilemma, I play Vega in SFV, and he actually can use both PPP/KKK macros for his V reversals, I once mapped V trigger to R2, but I went back to KKK because I wasn't comfortable pressing three kicks
@@kristianjensen5877 are you talking about the modern input system? I don't know how are the input for the supers in that game
My argument is a hardware-based one.
Having a button dedicated to dashing means less strain on the means of controlling movement (stick or D-pad) which I think is a good thing. It extends the life of the control being used.
I remember once trying to play naoto kurogane, and leaving the cf training mode with my hands aching like hell, thinking "man, I wonder if I can mod a dash macro into this game so I don't worsen my hand injuries" and after thinking about it for 5 seconds i realized that naoto with a dash macro would literally be the most fucked up character in existence.
I think you mean kurogane, and yes that would be hella fucked 😅
@@lucasdelliosiv7493 yeah lmao why tf their names gotta be so similar
Yeah but it better than making people cripple or hurt their hands from playing.
@@heavyc4450 true, but in crude terms, there are other characters to be learned. Other games to be played. Not every character requires the input complexity that naoto does. Take Susano'o for example, his dash is so shit that you just don't use it in combos, and most things he has are simple to pick up and do. Naoto was made for people who have already trained their hands to perfection. If you can't do it or don't want to risk getting hand injuries, there's an entire cast to be explored.
The thing about the dash macro is that it's not just a factor of balance but also a factor of controller homogeneity. Double tap is vastly easier without a lever after all.
this is also a good point
So I just started using a Dash macro for the first time like, today, since I'm properly picking up Strive. And as a person who's gone from doing >66 for years to just hitting LB it feels ... not really any different, at least in regards to it being more or less difficult. There's a level where input complexity matters far less than what you do with it, and as long as input accessibility isn't intentionally gimped to negate its own purpose, (Looking at you, DNF simple inputs), you've gotta be a real bum to lose sleep over it. The whole "fighting games should be hard!" argument falls apart to me when the reason behind it being difficult is just for the sake of it being difficult over anything actually balance or game-design based. I'm an execution nerd who by all accounts should "hate" simple inputs, but not everybody wants to sit in the lab for 1000 hours anally perfecting their inputs, and they shouldn't have to.
the difficulty with dashes isn't really doing them on their own. its usually precisely timing an instant air dash or a ground microdash midcombo or doing certain techniques like a kire tatami for example (baiken 236956). i never used dash macros so i don't whether that makes it easier. but i needed to practice a lot to do some combos that require this stuff the conventional way. also you should also probably account for the people who do want to spend time perfecting their inputs and timing. some people like the challenge just like some others may not. so their should be games catered to both. (and not just old games i mean new releases). the argument really doesn't fall apart. fighting games aren't chess they're built around decision making only. the genre has execution as a big part of it and thats not bad. its part of the identity. it was one of my biggest motivations to play (overcoming the hurdles )
My personal argument as someone relatively new to FGs (started with Strive about half a year ago, branched out to a bunch of others since) is that the difficulty of executing something should be roughly proportional to how often a tool is used and how important it is. If dashing is a core mechanic of your game and a central part of both movement and combos, a macro should pretty much be a no-brainer.
Xrd is my key example for this - you dash far, far more often than you ever walk, so the lack of a dash macro, or at least a generous buffer to be able to input dashes early, makes trying to pick up the game feel like an exercise in futility. However, as you said, adding a macro would cause balance issues pretty much everywhere else.
Same sort of idea applies to charge characters in almost every game. Trying to learn even basic routes on charge characters in certain games as someone who isn't familiar with them is painful. You have to be familiar with the whole route before you start practicing because you need to start charging in advance, and you need to be comfortable with charge timings to actually execute, which isn't a skill that transfers from experience with motion inputs. Even if it's just in training mode, a visible charge bar to help new players learn timings would be helpful. Or, if the execution required to play a charge character is notably higher for similar reward compared to the rest of the roster, you could even make specials charge faster whilst the opponent's in hitstun.
It's unrealistic to expect games without macros or certain QoL improvements to add them and for there to be no major repercussions (as much as I wish Xrd had a dash macro even despite all the ridiculous broken shit that would come from it) but I really, really hope it becomes a standard in the genre from this point forward.
Thank you for posting this. Dash Macros can fall in with the crowd of "new features bad because easier" and frankly I'm sick of the lack of nuance about the topic. Easier features CAN be bad. It CAN lead to balance issues.
Or it could be done the way that a game like Persona did. Make the auto-combos reward extra meter and replenish a small but significant part of the burst gauge. This has a few layers to it.
1: New players can use auto combo as a way to make up for their lack of execution/understanding in combo theory. That theory changes from game to game, from character to character, and from starter to starter. For a new player to the genre or series, it can feel like a chore to learn it.
2: Experienced players are not punished for neglecting to use auto combo. In Persona, pretty much every character has a way to do a marginally large combo with good meter gain with most starters and for no cost. There are exceptions, yes; But the main point is that they function just fine without the auto-combo. It is not a necessity to play the character's game plan.
3: Invested players can use the best of both worlds. There are more than zero characters in the game that are able to use auto-combo as a situational tool in their normal BNB's. It could be the starter, the filler: doesn't matter. They are able to use the larger damage while also gaining a decent chunk of meter and burst from auto-combo. Some can even use it more than once (Think S.Mitsuru: 5AAAAA + Shadow Frenzy + 5AAAAA...), enabling them to practically abuse the mechanic, but not because it's oppressive from a counter-play perspective. It simply enables them to be stronger with meter and burst more often.
All in all, easier mechanics than previous iterations will always be a topic worth discussing. Just make sure to judge each one of these cases for themselves. Generalizations help very few.
Very nice, I agree
I just wanted to say as someone that's pretty new to the fgc as well that I agree with everything you said exept one thing.Charge characters don't require better execution they instead require a different kind.For example with motion inputs you care about the speed of your inputs not their timing where as with charges you have to know the timing of the charge and when you release it.I have a friend who plays charge characters and he finds them easy as pie where as I can only do the most basic of stuff.Also the bar that you proposed yeah that should have been a training mode feature eons ago imo
@@user-uv1yk6qw6p I didn't mean to imply charge characters require better execution across the board. Like you said, in a vacuum, the skills they require are different from motion input characters, not strictly harder or easier. However, because a charge input takes 30 frames to input on average (depending on the game) and a quarter circle is usually 3 frames at minimum, the input windows for charge combos tend to be much tighter.
For example, Xrd Potemkin uses HFB constantly both in blockstrings and in combos, which is a 30f charge and a plink. You need to do that every few seconds just to play him decently. To be fair, Pot's definitely an outlier but I think he illustrates the point well and it's still an issue faced by other charge characters across the genre. Lowering the charge requirement on hit/block would make him and characters like him a lot more bearable, and that would stay true even if he was top 1 instead of bottom 1
@@MugginsHere i mean this would be less of a QoL thing and more of a balance thing, even more so with charge. though i guess you could just nerf charge moves to compensate it’s really a non issue because charge isn’t as important as dashes you can just pick up a character without them.
Venom out there back dashing like he owes child support.
If I had a nickel for every time people complaining about something in a fighting game being too easy, and doing that added anything meaningful to the discussion, I would have no nickels.
My surface level take is that if it's a macro- not a separate function- then it should affect the input buffer similarly to inputting it manually. Which should mean the charge gets spent if it's in the opposite direction.
If it doesn't do that, then it's either a poor implementation of a macro, or change in functionality altogether rather than a macro.
I think mega man x is a good example of why a having both a dash button marco and double tap is useful. There are legit techniques that are easy to use with one or the other. In early X games your dash button couldn't be configured to a shoulder button so if you wanted to do as dash shot(which did a bit of extra damage) or hold a charge shot it was more practical to use a use double tap. But if you wanted to do stuff like do a dash jump from the wall using the Marco was easier since trying to use the double can cause you to fall off the wall instead.
I always found double tap forward to dash to be very clunky, the dash button is a big reason why I picked up Strive to learn it as my first proper fighting game, so I'm heavily in favor of it. Adding it as an option doesn't ruin the "muh skill" and "make it too easy", its just good convenience for people that want it and makes it more accessible (Which for FGC purists/elitists is a cardinal sin)
I like the dash button but It is not like if there is an option to turn It off you should do it. Having a dash button let you do things like spamming backdash so i understsnd why some people dont like it
@@josecanovasmartinez1133 it also makes air dash mixup stronger by default too, you don't run the risk of screwing up the input so if a character has strong options from it it can get nasty really fast, also makes dash blocking even easier so you either need to balance the game around that or you're gonna have some rough situations because of it
I play strive without the dash button because I think it feels good and you use the macro because it feels good. Why is this a problem in someone’s mind?
@@billyerasmo8194 because you are neefing yourself. It is ok if you dont want to be a good player but there is no choice if you want to improve. It is the Same with locked screen in LoL
@@josecanovasmartinez1133 lol
Pretty much what I'm thinking. It's near the level of having a burst vs not having a burst in a game; it needs to be designed around it being there (or not being there) or the results could be catastrophic.
If I was coming up with a term for dashing a very short distance, mirco dash would probably be it
Makes sense. Or I guess Micro Run since it's Run characters that make use of this, not "Dash"/Step characters.
I'm disabled and a lot of the time the dash manually is extremely hard for me to do, especially if its in a combo so, I like having a dash button but, a close compromise would be to make the manual dash easier to do like slow down how fast you have to double tap.
I'm disabled too. Double tapping to extend combos is annoying for me too.
Going all the way back home to record and upload videos while simultaneously playing in Evo, LK really on that YT grindset
After using the dash button in strive I never want to go back to double tap. It just feels better.
dash macro just makes movement less tedious, especially if you dash a lot in the game, so if it can be in a game without affecting the balance it prob should
There is a thing that nobody talks for some reason, but modern fighting games are made not just for arcades and sticks, they are also made for controlers and consoles, and judging from my expirience doing dash a lot puts a lot of strain on your thumb, so it could be the reason why fighting games are going easy on stuff like that
its also good for stick because 66 motion on stick is way slower than on hitbox and controller
I have hand pain all the time, and it sets in quicker depending on the type of game. It wasn't until DNF Duel came out that I played a fighting other than strive and I really noticed the difference when the dash macro wasn't in that game. Having to mash the dash again just required me to use my bad hand more, when normally I'd have dash macro'd to the other side of the controller for my better but still not great hand. So really it's just nice in general to be able to map important stuff around.
If they say a fighting game is too to easy or is easy for any reason, ask if they are top 100, and proceed to laugh
That's stupid
@@MingusDynastyy among us
A lot of people forgot that the biggest FGC game for a long time, MvC2, had a dash macro. You pushed both punch buttons to dash. This was also an important part of combos for one of the god tier characters (Magneto's infinite is hilariously hard if you try to dash with just the stick). In MvC3 this standard macro for dashing also lead to a slight disfunction in the game where you could do a dash, cancel the start up with an attack and then kara cancel the start up with a dash again. Plink dashing, as it was called at the time, was faster than the standard wave dashing; it also lead to some super funky movement if your character had flight (for those that want to know what it looks like, if you see a character air dash multiple times after pausing in the air for a bit, that was flight mode activated and then a lot of plink dashing).
Dash Macro isn't new. Even some games with it can also have it lead to funky unintended consequences. Doesn't mean that the game is easier for it. Nobody is calling either MvC2 or MvC3 execution easy based on the inclusion of dash macros. There were issues with one button dashes during MvC2. Fanatiq, a pad dreamcast player, would forgo one of the assist buttons to have a one button dash. This was highly frowned upon at the time (discussion centered around the legality of it but the game let you do it in button mapping so it more or less started and ended there).
I don't think all games need a dash macro. There's definitely places where it would feel out of place (SF styled games mostly). The importance of the macro will vary based on how much the game wants you to dash, run and airdash around as movement. If these are things you'll need to do a lot, the macro will make that part of the movement a lot more enjoyable to do. If it there is less emphasis on dashing as the main form of movement, not having the macro isn't a deal breaker.
It would greatly help if Japan started looking at walkspeeds and making those better. As maligned as the game is, BBTag doesn't have dashes or runs. Instead they make your walk speed (by walkspeed I mean your movement when you hold forward) just utterly fast. You get to zip along the stage without needing to do a lot of extra inputs. While there are other things going on in the game you can take or leave, moving around feels great because of it. You mostly get the one thing on the ground and the one thing feels good. I'm not saying all games should have your walkspeeds be as fast as runs are in other games, but it would help if you walked quicker.
One small caveat to the button macro situation is that hitbox has become a more common controller now. This means that there is a section of controllers that get a way faster double tap to do their dashes. Right now we can mechanically circumvent stuff with controllers. So it'll be interesting to see what using hitbox for inputs, and all the funky things you can do with them, make devs do in response to them.
bbtag doesn't have walks, you just dash instead.
look at hazama.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz
I'm not sure if you accidentally skipped the explanation. But I made a distinction between what a walk I'd based on input and what a dash/run is. From what I remember most characters have a walk with a few exceptions (Nine has her teleport dash as a mechanic).
@@slackercake fast walk and run are different things. run gives you forward inertia and makes you not turn around if you cross under.
KOF goenitz has fast walk speed, bbtag just has no walk if the character has a dash.
like the rwby characters don't even have sprites for forward walk.
idk if a dash macro is really needed in street fighter, personally I feel like the main benefit of the macro is for easy IADs, I might just be a weirdo but even in strive I find it more consistent to do microdashes with 66 than dash button. And SF is already a 6 button game so I'm not sure where on the stick you could put the dash button that isn't awkward to press
Arthritis makes all games pretty tough
I definitely like dash/roll macros in fighting games. The primary reason is that the system cannot confuse a dash macro for another input. This was a big issue in SF4, where any difficulty in executing a dash cut players out from most of the game's combo system which relied heavily on FDAC.
In GGST I think this really opened up the design space for characters who might be too oppressive with a macro by letting the developers take away their dashes entirely and giving them alternative maneuvers instead.
I think it's very much like the situation with a block button.
It's not that the block button or dash macro themselves are bad, it's that they create potentially new options and gamestates.
The block button often allows for "standing neutral blocking" which has cross up protection. Carelessly adding it in would destroy cross ups.
Similarly, a dash macro adds in non forward facing dashing, as well as easy micro dashing.
Strive somewhat solves this problem by having dashes have a ramp up so you can't get too much momentum going from a single press, but some characters are leo and gio, and have a more fixed dash. They also have dash cancels be a fixed length.
Gatlings also make this more viable to do, imo, since they reduce the focus on links-which when combined with your new ability to dash instantly, are able to not only keep up the advantage, but also can continue to move forward.
Overall, I think dash macros are more easy to balance around than a block button. Now, excuse me while I make stand neutral block dashing a term that you can have nightmares about.
Small point of order: you can also do running vertical dolphin in Xrd with 65[3]8S/H.
I think the main problem that comes to my mind is that certain controller types, Hitbox or leverless specifically is the example that pops in my head, have much easier and faster access to double directional inputs.
Dude you have no idea how much you were speaking on my level by starting out with mega man x footage. The only reason I actually gave strive (and in turn FGs) a shot was because it felt so similar to the various platformers I play, a similarity largely incurred by the inclusion of a dash button. Nowadays I play on stick and use both the double tap and the macro, but the play experience on stick isn’t what got me to play this game, it was the play experience on a controller using an analog stick.
"Does the dash button make Fighting games too easy?"
Me playing Melee: "What in the tarnations are you talking about?"
I actually solved this argument a while ago, Yes we should get a dash macro button, Why? Cause hitbox players are already getting a very easy to do dash input / instant air dash input. Arcade users need the same advantage too.
5:45 May could actually do running vertical dolphins in xrd too, and the input was almost the exact same. you'd do 66, slide down to 3 and you would keep running.
There was dash fireball for charge characters in older games too but input and timing of frames you can do it was super cursed in Xrd Leo players used to do dash heavy fireball on midscreen oki since it had a longer window to do it was easier
Def agree with centering gameplay around the dash button. I mapped it to X on my stick so my index finger is the closest to it at all times
So far as the charge properties go, it'd be relatively simple for the game to simply require a 4 or 6 input in conjunction with a dash macro in order to dash (which would stop the leo dash fireball/DP example) and a 3 input would force a crouch in the dash (which would stop the dashing vertical dolphin shenanigans).
As for the backdash spamming in the xrd example, the game simply didn't account for anybody being able to do that so there's no safeguard -- a simple cooldown on the macro (or the backdash, in the case where you can actually adjust game code) when successfully inputting a backdash would stop this
That basically leaves the accessibility of backdash as the only real concern (and frankly, it's the largest concern with adding a dash macro at all anyway in terms of design ramifications), and as shown in strive, that can be handled without really negatively impacting the game (backdashes are still strong, just notably less so than previous entries. the lost power of the raw backdash is made up for by increased flexibility and OS options thanks to the macro)
I think the very simplest implementation of a dash macro will always cause problems (as shown in the xrd clip, where most of the problems can be remedied just by changing the implementation of the macro), but so long as there are safeguards in place to keep a dash macro from literally breaking the game, the design ramifications are pretty esoteric and only really matter at the highest level of play.
It's mostly just something for the developer to consciously think about when making the game, like how hitbox-style controllers broke SF back-charge inputs by allowing them to start accumulating charge sooner, since the developers were designing for a control scheme that couldn't do that.
it's probably just me but using a dash macro in strive makes me feel like i have less control of my character, it just does not feel natural to run with one button, but there is some things i use the macro for because it makes some setups easier. weirdly enough I do like dash macro when it's on 2 buttons like uni, it's very strange but i guess it really just depends from game to game.
i think if a game is designed around having one it's more than fine but not every game needs one and old games probably shouldn't get one implemented cause it has major implications on the balance, not all games are meant for everyone and if you don't want to play something because it doesn't have a macro that is completely fine and calling people "lazy" or whatever for it is incredibly dumb, likewise if players of an old game are fine without one in their game then you shouldn't really crucify them for it and call it gatekeeping.
isn't charging more like move attribute itself rather than execution? in mobile sfiv you can't use 1 button sonicboom for 50f after you move or jump forward for example.
beside can't they just make it so you have to hold 6 to use dash macro?
I just booted up +R for testing and may can charge Vertical Dolphin while running no problem, horizontal on the other hand 🤪
Also it's not even just an accessibility thing about people with serious hand pains, I don't have much stamina in my hands for double taps since that was never a motion I did as a kid (got my first console at 16 and it was a 3ds lol), so it tires me much faster and I can't practice as long
I am of the firm believe that movement should be one of the most uncomplicated things in fighting games (as is in pretty much every game that is not build around a movement constraint). It is one of the reasons why I gave up on Tekken. KBD ruined my fun with the game. It is not the case that I can´t do it I just think it is annoying and makes movement, the most basic action of the game, unnecessarily convoluted. So yes the dash button is definitely something I am all for. It isn´t just the dash either. I like a macro for all kinds of things. One of the reasons I could never play with an arcade stick is the need of pressing multiple buttons at once for all kinds of stuff. Just imagining I need to press multiple buttons to do an RC or Burst is horrifying to me. Make controlling your character easy! FGs are not about how you get from point A to B but about interacting with the opponent. That is why I think so. And that games need to be balanced around those controls should be obvious just like any other game gets developed around its mechanics.
Scrub quotes 101
@@MrSonicx12 Wow! Your highly intelligent and insightful argumentation truly is the stuff of legends. You clearly made me think about everything I said and completely changed my mind. Please continue on with your mission and we can achieve world piece by converting everyone to the smooth brain club.
Not every game has to cater to the same audience. It's ok for you to just not like Tekken while allowing the people who do like KBDing to continue enjoying their game. A game not aligning with your tastes is not a problem that has to be fixed.
@@slithermayne2218 Did I in any way say that every game needs to cater to me and my tastes? I stated my opinion and listed arguments why I think the way I do. I was neither disrespectful nor did I say something on the lines of "They better changes this in the future or else it stays a bad game" or similar crap. In fact I think Tekken is a great game but I can't have fun with it which is a shame. I can understand that in the toxic environment called the internet you developed the habit of being very defensive but please read the next comment you reply to more carefully before committing to a reply
The dash button feels good man
I used to not be a fan of the existance of a dash macro cause it made me feel like I'd have to force myself to override a lot of my preexisting muscle memory to not be at a disadvantage, like it never turned me off from games or anything and I was already a huge UNI fan, but I preferred it not being there. Then Strive came out, and I became an I-No main and now I def see the value lmao, it's really nice. Whenever I'm trying to do my safe hoverdash oki setups it helps me *a lot*, and it also makes the Chaos matchup less miserable (it's still bad, but if I had to 66 every time it'd be straight up painful). It's still not a big deal to me, and it does change some aspects in game balancing, but now I'm a fan of it.
it's amazing how fast people are to say "you don't need a macro for that, it's so easy! plus, if you add a macro, it'll become easy!".......
Yeah if anyone wants to feel what the dash macro in SF feels like go play SFV Laura Vskill 1. SF has already done it and it feels awesome. To me it’s always been what made Laura feel great to play.
But I still don’t know if the design of it works in SF6 though. I wouldn’t mind it being an option but don’t necessarily need it.
I'm okay with dash macro for Strive specifically because of drift RC - Especially fast drifts. Doing 22, 44, 66, or 88 and following up is pretty hard, moreso if you're a special afterwards. Piano'ing dash macro to PKS is much more comfortable
ty for the handpain comment, I went from ranked SC2 > ranked LoL high ladder and started on fighting games recently and the dash button is a godsend for my carpal tunnel
you can move in backstance and charge with leo
I was definitely not expecting megaman
At this point I'm indifferent. Having one will not make you start magically winning and not having one will not be the reason you are losing. If you think the lack of a dash macro is the sole reason you are losing your problems are bigger than not having a dash macro.
People having a dash macro wont make you lose but not having one yourself will. I only play games with dash macros bc 1 miss me with that carpel tunnel and 2 its not fun to me so its safe to say ill play alot worse if the button i use tondash was to be removed
While I was learning BBCF(My first fg) I was thinking how better it would be with a dash macro(especially as a hazama player)and then I saw what naoto does and just said nope.For the ones who don't know Naoto' s specials are enchanced when you do the while dashing soo...yeah
Playing virtua fighter and mastering buffered crouch dashes is time I spent that ill never get back. I'm happy with the dash macro existing
Strive was my first guilty gear game. And I thought a dash macro was just a normal basic feature in guilty gear. having to double tap repeatedly for every match is just typing on my thumb. I'm glad I started with strive
I've never been a big fan of games that had dash be assigned to double tapping a direction. Something about it just never quite felt right to me. Maybe I was a little worried I'd tap forward, then want to stop for a moment, and then continue and I'm worried my input would be misinterpreted, or maybe I'd be self-conscious that I'm not double pressing fast enough, and maybe it just didn't feel quite ergonomically right for me. I think the only game I've been alright with double tap to dash has been God Hand. And I think with that game movement isn't so important that I'm worried that dashing is going to prevent me from doing what I want. Double tapping on a control stick is a little bit of a skill, so it's something I had a little trouble with at the start. The only thing I don't like about a Dash Macro, is that it is a macro. Maybe that's just the word the community uses, but it makes me think that pressing the dash button doesn't actually send an input to the game that I'm trying to dash, but rather it sends two forward inputs. Which isn't *really* a problem, but it does make me fearful that at some point the game is going to misinterpret that input as something else at some point.
i bought a hitbox just to make dashing easier. my back dashes are just coin flips when i'm being frame trapped on a stick. 2 and 3 buttons macros are allowed, just sayin
Why were you opposed to the term microdash?? I'm super curious now
I literally said, as he brought it up: "First game he played with a Dash button? Everyone thinks that's probably a fighting game...but I bet you it's Mega Man X."
AND BAM IT WAS MEGA MAN X! My boy LK being *cultured.*
Double Tapping to dash in a Megaman game is some very cursed stuff
@lordknight you see them polls I was right The entire gg community wants Slayer and Johnny above everyone else.
I don't think every game needs a dash macro. And there are enough fighting games out there, where there's probably one that has input methods that you vibe with. The real problem about fighting games, is that the past 10 years they've been come extremely fashionable and trendy. And people want to be associated with fighting games but don't want to play fighting games lol.
At the end of the day, if a game is developed without a dash macro, you cannot put it in later as it changes jurassically what can realistically happen in a match. Same thing if a game is developed a dash macro, you can't take it out later on. Imagine fighting HC in strive without a dash macro.
Dash macros similarly affect a game as one button DPs. DNF was developed around having a one button DP, I think this is why the pressure in that game is the way it is. Taking out one button DPs, would jurassically affect that game. Vice versa for a game like Street fighter 5. Adding one button DPs in that game, would completely break the game as it was developed with expecting players to do an input that adds additional frames to the DP before it comes out.
My D-pad survived GG strive, so i would love the dash macro to become a standard option in SF6.
I'm not very technical at inputting combos. Having the dash macro makes it a lot easier and fun. Especially the air dashes.
Can’t imagine playing I-no without a dash macro anymore. Went back to Xrd recently and I felt so slow
Grinding dash cancels with naoto blazblue makes my hands hurt memes aside.
My problem is that the double tap doesn't work, like for real. Not even a fight, I'm talking training mode just standing. I input the damn double tap and it comes out 3 times out of 5
What's funny about this is that sf4 for the 3ds actually had macros you could put on the touchpad. But any macro. So imagine guile with the new "special move" button spamming booms and flash kick while walking forward. Personally I love the dash button in strive, makes playing any character more fluid and fun.
Dash macros are great. People want to PLAY the game. That means they want to DO the things their characters are capable of. Of course you should balance moves with how their inputs restrict their use, but you should be able to do that without making the inputs for something as basic as running unnecessarily cumbersome. (plus if you really need to prevent charge character shenanigans, just take away their charge while they're running? It's not hard to program that)
It's no fun to play a videogame where the controls for doing basic actions (such as running) are cumbersome. There's a lot of fun and skill expression to be had in doing a move too late, or not running far enough over, or (in other genres) pressing a trigger too hard, or not moving the stick far enough, but nobody is having fun in any game when they try to input an action and get a completely different action instead. FGs are the only genre where people argue in favor of making the controls worse on purpose.
Plus my thumbs would get tired from all that doubletapping, and I doubt it's good for the sticks either.
I guess arcsys realized the dash button wasnt well thought out and then they made the airdash change in fighterz
before watching the video, I suspect that the consequences of efficiency in business and production are also gonna apply to fighting games; instead of doing less work in the same amount of time for the same output, it results in doing the same work in the same amount of time for increased output. Oh, cool, you can dash with a bufferable button now? here's a combo that requires dashing for exactly 1 frame three different times, and its the optimized version of your bread and butter c: c:
edit: I thought IAD was always "meant" to be 956, not 96? Am I the weird one here?
Yeah, rigorously speaking, it's 956. We just tend to omit the 5 most of the time when referring to dash inputs. If you ask a bunch of fighting game players what the numpad notation is for a dash input, most of them will probably tell you it's 66, not 656. The 5 is implied.
I'm fine with it as long as double tapping is still an option. I don't want to have to rely on my 7th stick button to dash in SF6 or whatever.
My dash macro button broke today and I felt so sluggish
the dash macro made MMX for me. it just feels so good!!!
i don't think the dash button is a bad thing. I tried to do some very particular combos with Jam in xrd rev2 (ok, the dash button isn't made for this game, it's said in the video, BUT), and that is an absolute pain for the hands. I had to jump>air dash> CANCEL air dash in the first frames by inputting 236k. For some people this may sound easy and be easy, but i just can't input that consistently.
I think putting a dash macro in xrd rev2 but only air dash could be cool (it's an exemple). I actually never really played the game (juste some hours), so don't just spit on my face for saying that.
I remember in mvc2 when people would clown on fanatiq for having one button dash on his pad
I really like dash macro, but I don't think it will work with characters like Naoto and (maybe) Hazama for obvious reasons. Maybe dash macro should be limited in certain cases, while being always there for movement
I'm confused. In the first minute, you're saying older games, not just older FGs, had double tap forward for dash, and that's why people who've been playing games for a long time liked double tap forward more.
... But the game you showed while saying all this is Mega Man X on the SNES, and every Mega Man X and MM Zero game has a dash button. Why are you disproving your own point?
We did this live, I forgot it wasn't double tap in MMX 😅
I have a really hard time dashing on stick. Any tips to improve?
Just keep doing it
Dont "just keep doing it" or you could get repetitive strain injury (carpel tunnel) from dping that same action over and over
Just keep playing the game normally and youll get uses to it or dont play ganes without a dash button
And even in regular play take breaks alot for ur hands games with double tap dash are alot more likely to give you carpel tunnel
@@Keeby. Keep doing it as in getting more accurate with the input, numbnuts. They had no indication of pain
@@Keeby. im someone whos a firm believer in having games be more accessible but saying “dont keep practicing” to someone having trouble is asinine. Its not something crazy its just a double tap
@@ike804 sitting in training room double tapping over and over is gonna get you carpel tunnel
you learn it by just playing the game and figuring it out if you think youre physical health is less important then being able to dash earlier then do whatever
I prefer having a button. It feels like it gives me more control of how I engage in a scenario/how quickly certain other inputs come out. Millia's airdashes would probably feel really annoying if I had to constantly put in the motion for it, instead of just pressing a button.
My personal reason as to not being a fan of a dash macro is that I feel like it forces the cast and the game itself to weaken itself to compensate with it. With easy IAD macro, the devs might determine to not have as much jump cancellable stuff to prevent easy IAD overheads, etc. etc.
Or yeah backdashes having significantly less invul because its abusable. I like my high power budget games ( in both casts and mechanics ) and I don't think dash macro is friendly for those games.
disaster ending is tekkens korean back dash to a macro
i mean hitbox already made control better anyway so why not dash button too.
though there are games like bb where they keep the frame 0 dash momentum buffer glitch. so dash button would make balance even worse but thats just bb being kusoge
Dash macro closes the gap between hitbox and others controllers ever so slightly.
My problem is not that it makes games easier, but that it leaves arcade sticks behind. There's clearly an advantage with what is possible to do having an extra dash button that doesn't hinder the hand using it.
I personally use a keyboard, but I often think of buying a stick because I feel like a cheat. I couldn't beat a pro that uses a stick but I know my controller had an advantage. If every game starts having controls like this, people will get better than stick users, I'm pretty sure of it (if it's not already the case, I saw Daigo using hitboxes).
I would redirect the question of the video ; Does the Dash Button Make Games Too Easy? to "should arcade sticks go?".
vsav with a dash macro would be so insane
you have guts’ hair
genuine question for double tap dash player, do your hand or finger felt tired or sore after too many input?
I manual dash for both Sol Kara DP cancels and get this, Naoto Kurogane in BBCF. If you know anything about that character you know that his dash cancels are very very intense. However I find it doesn't hurt me or gets sore after a while, it's actually quite satisfying
It depends on the game!
If the game's 'dash' is actually a Sprint/Run for the majority of the cast, it should have a macro.
If they're air dashing, a macro makes even more sense.
Street Fighter does NOT need a macro, our fightsticks dont have any space left at this point.
Plus some characters HARDLY EVER dash in SF, why make a macro some people would never use?
Just accept that some games have it and others dont, ty
Personally I don't mind a dash button too much, I know some people need it to keep some hands problems in check, but as long as it doesn't break a game for adding one.
Dash macro rubs me the wrong way depending on the game in question, more for anime games. I don't have a problem with it in general, but it does irk me a bit knowing too many of the Millia players in Strive for example wouldn't have anywhere near as crisp air movement without the dash button. Who needs IAD timings and consistency when you can literally jump and mash dash macro immediately and get a perfect IAD every time, IMO it lowers the skill ceilings of fast games.
Dash macro in blazblue will give naoto mains the ability to rival gods
Am I crazy for thinking dash macro makes FGs harder, not easier? Played both Xrd and Strive for a long time, and the fact that Strive is balanced around dash macro makes most setup windows really tight compared to Xrd, also Strive added FD macro and in Xrd we already had RC macro. So that's 3 non-attack additional buttons that you HAVE to use not to waste frames and to increase consistency. Also you get more OS options, which add more depth that you both have to learn and learn to deal with.
I like Dash macro because for some reason I can't reliably pull the input off to save my life. Macro just alleviates any worries I have aboutplaying while not being able to do it. Akso you brung up playing other games with sprints but I've never played a non fighting game with doubletap for dash
Wait I've just been double tapping in Guilty Gear Strive, should I actually use the dash macro?
Yes for sure
@@LordKnightfgc I'll map it to my R1 then and put dust attack on R2, thank you! 🙏
I'm not saying Street Fighter 6 doesn't need a Dash Macro, but SF isn't the game that needs this discussion. High mobility games like BB, GG, and other anime fighters should be the battlegrounds for Dash Macro talk. I'd even say KoF is a better game to talk about since everyone in that game runs rather than steps.
2:22
acshually 956
For me, if dashing isn't instant then the movement feels Bad, and if movement feels bad then I'm not interested in investing time into the game. Strive is the first fg that I learned for real, I didn't grew up on the genre, and dashing being easy is probably most of the reason why I'm Even here. If movement felt Bad i wouldve just refunded the game an hours in.
Skill issue perhaps, but I and many other people don't really care, we're not starved for fgs, either take all frustration out of basic movement or lose a potential player, which is fine, devs make decisions, and consumers make decisions around those, that's how it is, i respect it, I just wish I could find more fighting games fun.
Hazama with dash macro would be easier for me to play
I have tendonities I want a dash macro in every game
Ayoo it’s sendo
Guys, if you play on pad there's a whole joystick with a smooth range of movement that you could use to comfortably walk by lightly holding and run by fully holding.
Just sayin :)
Gamedevs, get on that
i agree with this fully, dash macro is a godsend. idk why i think the opposite in making korean backdash easier tho lol