The Real Ways They Made Combos Easier
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- #guiltygear #dragonballfighterz #fightinggames
Fighting game enthusiasts talk about how fighting games are being simplified, and one common point are combos. So let's look at how they actually made combos easier, and how it affects games.
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For the longest time, I used to be one of the people who would refuse to play fighting games because "combos are too hard".
At the beginning of this year, I finally took a dive and started playing both KoF on Fightcade and Skullgirls.
What I quickly realized is that the struggle wasn't memorizing the sequences or timing the button presses.
The REAL issue fore me was *_Hit Confirming._* I can't Hit Confirm to save my life.
So I really appreciate whenever a game has increased hitstun and hitsop to help slow people like me.
Especially skullgirls solo hitconfirming is a pain, but i guess it is an assist game so eh
The new juggle system in Strive is probably more intuitive for people than having to chase down you opponent while comboing them. It also adds new ways to reset pressure intentionally to avoid breaking the wall or to sneak in extra damage with a throw or something.
Coming from Tekken, it was definitely a lot easier to understand. I remember trying out SF5 and the combo system there confused me.
@@FreshSakuya SF combo system is mostly weird due to it's juggle points system which you have to look up the actual data since visually you can't tell way some moves work in some juggles but whiffs in others.
@@boredomkiller99 Yep, I just learned about this recently. Been watching a lot of Brian_F and he's talked about it.
Fr bro, i started playing sf after this game and i just couldn't understand shit like air reset and juggle values. Bro if they are in hit stun lemme hit them💀
Completely disagree, air teching is essential to anime fighter DNA and not having it just is so extremely weird. It's also very weird that you aren't punished at all for dropping, unlike basically every other game
Good video, and I know you didn't compete in it, but it was a missed opportunity to discuss Fighting EX Layer's Progressive mode.
It's a 6-button, Street Fighter-style game (made by the original designer of SF2) with all the usual SF inputs, but as an option, you could enable Progressive mode which replaces 236 inputs with 56, 623 inputs with 53, and supers with 46 or 64 as I recall. What was interesting was that a number of optimal combos involved walking and using normals, which would overlap with special inputs in Progressive mode. You could still do the same combos, but the inputs were way tighter and harder compared to the less optimal ones that didn't overlap with special inputs. I always thought that was a neat wrinkle/tradeoff. Less a penalty, and more an opportunity cost, if you chose the mode that's easier on your fingers.
you actually can get super from auto combos in dbfz, they just require you to do medium auto combos instead of light auto combos. there are actually some unique combos you can do with certain characters by utilizing their medium auto combo.
Do more chars use it now? The only char who used M auto combo for real for a long time was Trunks. That's the only reason why I didn't really mention it haha
@@LordKnightfgc You can use it with Hit to get a TOD with 7 Bars, Limit Break, and Sparking. At least, you can do Medium, Medium, 214M, and his secondary lv1 super. It nukes people.
Pretty sure bro knew considering he played the game
@@LordKnightfgc I also remember Piccolo's being used with an assist for an easy side switch back in season 1 before things like rejumps became more common. Obviously hella suboptimal, but a nice thing to have early in a game's lifespan.
@@LordKnightfgcJust a couple more, hasn't really increased in usage tbh
Cool Vid LK but I am too drunk right now. Imma watch it tomorrow tho. cheers
I’m surprised there was no mention of Melty Blood Type Lumina
I don't play it enough, I tried to stay in my lane and only discuss games I have played competitively
Great exploration of the mechanics and history, as always!
Good video! Really makes you appreciate how delicate the design around a major fighting game is, no air tech in strive definitely has shaped a lot and Arc Sys were clearly careful about how they made the combo system around it (even if thats not to everyones taste).
A big thing that I want to see more of is about how a game, or tutorial, makes the player WANT to do the higher execution stuff. Auto combos are actually great for this, as LK mentioned they don't give good damage or Oki, a low level player that doesn't care feels good for just getting a hit and doing something, but if a player noticies the cooler bigger damage combos then they get to ask themsevels if they want to learn how to do that. When I played DBFZ I didn't know about the depth of fighting games and just played with light and medium auto combos. Seeing other people do things like the universal 2M - 5M - Jump cancel etc combo and learning how to do that felt like a natural expansion. A lot of the "old school" harder games have the attitude of "Even the easiest combo can be messed up, so get gud" and I think that leads to new players feeling bad rather than a desire to get better and do cooler things.
I would love for a future GG (or SF) game to have a better mix of cancel options and links. So a combo starter has the "easy" gatling into special, but also has link options to give a hard knock down or better damage off doing a different route. Obviously this is a nightmare to design, to make a normal plus enough on hit to link, but then not minus enough on block that a player going for the link gets mashed on because their opponent blocked and was plus. Turns out designing fighting games is hard guys! Great to think about and great video again!
God input buffering rules
I love input buffer. All my homies hate artificial difficulty in fighting games
Autocombos might make games more fun for people who don't want to worry about execution, but I still think it makes execution harder, personally. Getting autocombo instead of the thing you tried to do too fast under pressure feels bad, locking useful moves inside what's basically a (1 button) rekka feels bad. I'll take normal motion inputs and a boring ass buffer every time
Systems made to make inputs easier unintentionally making things harder is an interesting topic. Dash 236 becoming DPs, the input parser in DNF turning motion inputs into one button specials, Type Lumina's autocombo woes (I like the solution French Bread went with), etc.
@@ArkadijsZaptesburka big agree, if there's one design cue from MBTL that I hope makes it into more games is system level stuff like autocombos and input shortcuts changing into configurable options, instead of a hard commitment made for one type of player at the expense of others.
So auto combos do not make the game easier
@@HellecticMojo On the high level not necessarily, so kinda yes
Can you give an example of a game where auto combos make it harder to combo?
LK is the anime fighter historian of the fgc
Jiyuna: You wrong but I forgive you.
:D (and I know you about to write a whole essay about how LK is the true and only one, don't do it...)
KIller instinc, from it's core, has a great combo system that is both easy for new players and very versatile at higher level game play.
the "game will get stale because there are no long combos" argument is annoying when you don't realize that there's more to fighting games than that. you'd think people would know that but...guess 30 years ain't enough
After playing DNF the game got stale because the combos were too long
@@KingAfrica4 thats just prefrence. what im saying is depth and game logic other than just combos. if there's no depth in the in between it gets old fast imo
Combos become less and less impressive the easier it is to do
@@RameoMTL they're the least impressive part of every fighting game because there is no interaction
@@dariuswilson3307 I disagree there. There's always an inherent risk going for the more difficult combo. It's like saying going for a flashy dunk is not impressive when you can just not dunk. Except you don't get more points for dunking
It took me a while to figure out that you NEED to do first parts of an auto combo when air combing in DBFZ. Apparently doing an auto combo in the air pushes you towards to opponent rather than letting you fall down.
You don't need to, if you press Heavy it should do that same move from the end of an "air autocombo"
@@LucasMalaquias what hes referring to is the different properties pressing LLL in the air has (especially if you delay the 2nd L) compared to pressing LMH in the air
@@chairmanmoo1362 This is what I was referring to yes
@@chairmanmoo1362 oooh, I see, thank you. I didn't know that
I think the real way combos matter when it comes to skill is having more decisions to make off of every hit. Like the way jabs work in strive they either get nothing on normal hit for most characters or hkd by linking to kick on counter. That takes more skill than just going from jab to backturn in Xrd
Yes, that's the way a lot of fighters are nowadays. And that's fine with me. Ideally it allows the matchups to be more about the player vs player and less character vs character. Emphasizes the mental stack, defense, and neutral play. At least those are the areas where your skill can scale almost infinitely. It's more about finding the hit, and what you do with that opportunity offensively instead of insane execution chops.
I wish you talked a bit more about the air autk combo property in DBFZ which allows for base vegeta loops for example. Pretty much a property that if you mash light in the air that hits an airborn opponent, you will automatically go to light, medium, heavy, but it will also float you up a bit so you can do special combos that take advantage of the floating property.
Microdaahes and dash cancels in combos are a lot easier (on stick) with a dash macro like in under night, strive, TL is another thing worth mentioning
Dashes are easier period even on button controllers tho. Strive rotted my hands and now I have problems with IAD's in BBCF and Xrd lmao
man hates TL i guess he never talks about the game in any videos which is pretty sad because its an excellent fighting game especially right now after they made all those system changes a few months ago
No air tech in strive is interesting. I'm generally for it as of now. Since it makes combo structures way more intuitive and lowered the skill floor of burst bait play. On the other hand, dropping a combo has less risk for being punished is...split for me. For one, new players can still keep offense while dropping it, making it less punishing and less discouraging. For two, if you fuck up you really should get punished.
It's new, I'm not ready to make a stand of weather it's good for strive or not, yet.
There's definitely still moments where if you screw up a combo really bad, you'll eat a huge punish for it. I've sometimes miss Sol's Clean Hit DP and it gives the opponent enough time to get up and counter hit punish.
Not as common (or as punishing) as with the other games, but it still exists.
I'm surprised you didn't talk more about hitstun. I started with dragonball and then tried xrd in prep for strive. The biggest thing to me was how little hitstun there was comparitively: confirming and even gattling feels SO STRICT compared to dbfz, like I had to press way quicker
MVC2 was another 4 button fighter that locked moves behind lights, like Persona Arena. Pressing LP twice would give you LP then MP for example. This was super important to the games combo system.
Little surprised you didn't put Soul Calibur 6 on here. That game's combo system is perfect for beginners, being that it gives 2-3 options per combo starter + 2-3 options for combo filler/enders for the majority of the cast.
Fr, fr, way too many people sleep on the Soul Calibur Franchise.
I tried to stick with games I played competitively, but I'm open to learning more 🙏🏾
@@LordKnightfgc That's my G.O.A.T.
I miss being able to flip out in the air :-(
Please, tell me it's hitstun or moves being active longer. A simple ABA combo in +R probably was quicker than a 2K 2D in this game, I cannot say I hate the change. Can't play her for my life still.
Hitstop in +R is way shorter that's probably the main one
I can't do buttloops, I'm a failure.
The “hold button to buffer” has been in kof for ages btw, way before blazblue
But in KoF, it only applies to specials and supers.
Awesome video!
When I started FGs I thought combos would be the hardest part for me.
After playing them for last 5 years, it is probably the easiest.
As you show, games are more forgiving now in terms of combo execution and that helps a lot. I feel like Johnny no Thumbs in a lot of videogames so combos used to intimidate me, but games like DBFZ and DNF helped me to get over that with their more beginner friendly combo mechanics on the surface.
But I think there is another reason combos are "getting easier" too
There are also tons of resources to get better at them in the modern age.
SOOOOOOOO many great combo vids and tutorials are out there, from the basic just copy this to in depth explanations of the timing and combo theory. Additionally I have found great advice for how to approach combos with one of the best things being your advice (idk if it was in a stream or in a vid) that you don't always go for the optimal combo. That you find a balance b/w effectiveness and ease/consistency.
I think combos are easier not only because of mechanics, but because of the dedicated work of the FGC that optimizes, streamlines, and teaches about them.
Thank you for this blessing, my Lord.
99% chance LK says "combo conversion ability" about 5 times this video
I legit thought it was not gonna be about "combos have gotten easier" and it was just gonna be "combos have gotten easier to convert into". The Strive no tech system is definitely something I didn't like about the game, but hearing it all laid out makes it very clear why intermediate Strive players LOVE going for random burst baits instead of just taking the damage, and I will be very happy to show them why you shouldn't do that in Xrd when I mash tech buttons in their face after rollback is out lol
Only 5 times?
I don't think I heard him say it once, but I'm too lazy to watch the video again to check
ok
Yeah burst baiting in this game is definitely less risk, I can still burst bait and keep my turn so there’s a good reason to go for it in a lot of situations
good thing they aren't playing xrd
I know this video is about combos, but guard button games have gotten more common and GBVS was the first ArcSys game (I know of) that had it. Supposedly it's helpful for people who are used to Smash or NRS games but the implications it has on defense is HUGE.
I like how this new juggle system in Strive makes way for more player expression on combos. Until this day there are new combos to be discovered in this game.
If they made combos easier then why I still can't do Ramlethal's rekka cancels?
Checkmate, atheists.
IMO Strive has the most sensible changes to make the game easier of the games you've mentioned. They didn't add autocombos or blandly reduce all motion inputs to quarter-circles, and the game is still a five-button fighter (I can't believe you didn't mention BBTAG: two fucking buttons! TWO!) There's definitely a LOT of issues with how they handled Strive, but I really roll my eyes when people say that the game is a completely brainless masher compared to Xrd or ACR. There's no utterly stupid nonsense like auto-combos on whiff or shit that lets you ignore neutral entirely like super dash in DBFZ. I do wish character movesets hadn't been pared down so much (gimme sidewinder plz) and the wall is a pretty blunt way of solving the "I'm getting murdered in the corner and can't do anything" issue new players have, but I think the core of the game is still absolutely solid.
I don't think simplifying motion inputs is bad as long as they consider how they are doing it. Dbfz has DPs on 214 and command grabs on 214, that is super cap imo. GBVS does a good job with it, persona is ok.
SMH not enough BBTAG in the video, Good shit tho ur right
About holding a button while getting hit on DBFZ, I think they should revert the logic on a possible sequel, where you hold a button to NOT reset, because anytime I see a new player trying the game, they never hold the button, and end up taking way more damage and thinking that combos never end
just tell them then. Doing nothing to do an action (air teching, in this instance), would feel so bad for everyone who actually plays these games and probably new players too. People learn over time that they need to tech or they will die. Teching is often just a reflex but it has intention behind it too, depending on what character they are playing. Some characters want you to tech certain ways to reset you some characters have gameplans based on reading a tech so teching automatically would be bad. Just my drunken 2 cents.
@@urmum9898 I do in fact tell them... When I am there! A lot of people play by themselves, and the game doesn't do a good job at teaching how it works, I suggested this change because it's something I see happening all the time, because it's not intuitive.
And it would basically not change how people with experience play the game, they would only need to actively choose to hold the button to not be reset
@@ricniclas its fixed by having a better tutorial
@@ricniclas a new problem arises which would probably tilt newer players even more. Auto neutral tech in the air ff they don't press anything if your character has an air command grab they are gonna just get hit by these resets for free
I think the main way they made combos easier in strive is by making moves do way more damage and making most optimals much shorter. I'm surprised you didn't mention this, it seems very obvious.
I don't necessarily agree about combo length. High damage is def a way they make the game easier, but this video is more about specific mechanics that do so.
Combo length is up to the game, some games have button button super as an optimal confirm where it's all links and quite tight, where other games I've played, my good random confirm is 5 or 6 reps of the same 4 attacks.
This is also why I feel that saying "the combos are easy so the game is easy" is a bad take.
started playing strive last year, kof xv this year and tekken 7 on september. Me and my brother bought SF5 two weeks ago and for me, my brother and my friends this one has been the most difficult to perform correctly the combos.
yesterday we played Blazblue centralfiction and my friend played with Susano and it looked like he was a pro or the BOSS AI ahhaha; he just never stopped with the combos and strings 😂
I wish that... in CF, the Advanced Input was still 5 frames, and you didn't have to hold the button down.
Nice Chopper plush.
I personally feel that the FGC's preoccupation with execution holds the genre back in a big way. Ever since I transitioned from mostly playing fighting games to mostly organizing events I have come face to face with just how many players just don't stick with fighting games because it requires so much training mode grinding over actually playing the game. DBFZ was the first regular event I have held that managed to retain players and even grow. Every month players would tell me about how it was the first game they played where the accessibility options didn't feel gimped and they really felt like they were playing the game. Many players who attend my Strive events now wouldn't even be players at all if it wasn't for DBFZ.
training mode grinding IS playing the game. training mode is literally the fun part of FGs.
@@DEClimax It's fun to lab stuff once you have a starting point. It's very easy to lose interest in a game if you can't do anything at all until you've labbed out combos like you're studying for a test.
@@DEClimax The simple fact of the matter is that when I run events for games that require a lot of training mode grinding the players dwindle real quick. We could go back and forth over whether training mode is "fun" but what matters to me in the end is whether the game is helping me retain my players or pushing them away from my events.
It's def easier to raise people in a new game than get them into an old one imo
You do not have to lab out combos before playing a game, even in older games. It's the perception that you need to that discourages people from sticking with fighting games.
15:40. What’s the music again? I know it’s Melty blood music
strange dreamer from actress again :D
I'm glad they're making changes they want to make to their game. It's impossible to please everyone, so doing what they believe to be best for their game has my support.
I haven't seen that Noel combo in a good minute lol
Offtopic but your skin looks great in this video, drop the routine
As a ken player in SSBU, Proximity normals are the worst thing ever. The game already has some jank with hitbox shifting, so sometimes you could be standing directly next to your opponent and get far heavy punch and mess up a kill combo
this is how it is in street fighter too and i think it is the main reason the series moved away from them. a lot of characters didn't even use half of the full suite of close and far normals they had in SF4
i love close slash
I think that just means the move is poorly implemented.
To be fair, smash isn't really a good series for proximity moves.
The movement itself is already analog, and has lots of momentum shifting going on. That's an environment where there isn't a lot of consistency for proximity normals to work.
Prox normals in smash sounds hilariously annoying
Rollback for granblue plz
fr manifesting it
I think how they implemented red RC in Strive is rather brilliant, compared to how RC worked in BlazBlue. It is certainly one way they made "advanced" combos easier.
Killer Instinct (2013) also stuck to quarter circle and DP motions.
KI also had back-fwd, down-up, and down-down
@@DEClimax oh, I must have missed those. Which characters used those motions?
@@AdamJorgensen they did it really infrequently. off the top of my head, i think it was just sabrewulf, tj combo, riptor, and cinder? and spinal had 22PPP to do his skull summon shadow move.
@@DEClimax Neat. I mostly played Shin Hisako, Sadira and Kim Wu so I wasn't aware those characters had other moves.
Man, now I want a new KI game again 🙂
I don't know too much about the DNF combo system but was it not worth discussing?
Tbh I don't know enough, it seemed like a standard combo system + simple inputs if you feel like it, so it felt redundant (GBVS) plus I have very little competitive history with the game.
When are we getting bearded Lk
I'm one of those people who don't like proximity normals.
You make good content
Combos are hard. But only because I'm an idiot that can't remember them.
Didn't Pocket Fighters have an auto-combo system?
I always dislike the "dumbing down" conversation in relation to combos/execution. mainly because combos already are the "easy" part of fighting games! if you are landing a combo, you already opened up your opponent/won neutral (which is the hard part) so it doesn't really matter how easy or hard combos are afterwards, anyways someone will optimize combos to an extent that only lab monster will be able to execute them.
the dialogue should be centered more about streamlined options on offense,Defense and neutral. if everything the characters can do in these situations can be counted on one hand, we have a problem.
I agree. Some combos NEED to be hard like, certain infinites with 1f links that nobody does consistently etc, but yes, combos are the easy part.
As much as I tried I'm too Unga Bunga on combos 😔
Who else hates auto combos on whiff?