I hate Sonic Forces. Support me on Patreon: / lowart Watch livestreams on Twitch: / thelowart Follow me on Twitter: / thelowestart Contact me: lowart.contact@gmail.com
The "From the people that brought you Colors and Generations" thing that showed up at the start of the Sonic Forces trailer was definitely a bold faced lie cause it's crazy how different Gens and Forces are from each other. Pretty sure Forces only had like 2 level designers and one of them was completely new to designing levels
@@WhoAmI928 They did not, and even if that was the case there are plenty of Sonic games that have been in development for 1-2 years that are considerably better than Forces
@@CTGReviews The thing is, nobody can actually agree on how long the development actually was, even tho the statement itself was mistranslated. That's because details are very easily obscured or falsified. For all we know they were not working on the game for a year(Because Sonic Team was also running a mobile game and helping Mania), were making concepts and their art for a year, were making the graphics engine for a year and then were making the game in the remaining year.
My biggest problem with this game it that it WANTS to play itself. There are dozens of moments in this game where if you're touching the stick at all Sonic will just get sent flying off of a slope or a turn and it drives me insane.
You could argue Sonic 06 is better because at least Sonic 06 has good level design. It's just that the game barely functions and the characters are sluggish
The one thing I will give Forces over 06 are the bossfights. The ones in Forces are pretty decent at least, while the one in 06 Sonic story(Didn't play the other stories) are the worst thing ever.(If the most fun boss is Silver, that should tell one that there's an issue) Otherwise, yeah. At least 06 felt like what it was supposed to be, an SA-adjacent game. Forces is meant to be Generations-adjacent, but it's just not.
@@HatZ.PetoriaZeroi agree with the level design for sure after seeing p-06 the stages look so fun and satisfying to run through, cant wait to play the project for myself when its done hopefully late 2023-2024
i was relieved when the sonic frontiers cyberspace levels had different things you had to quickly react to, and how sonic's speed increases gradually & naturally. it wasn't always just boost to win, unlike forces. and for most of the levels, they're fun to go back and replay to obtain all the vault keys. i wish there were more new designs though...way too many of them were green hill zone themed. but overall i am very happy with frontiers :)
Well the thing about Frontiers, is that the Cyberspace levels were basically copy-pasted from other 3D Sonic games. So you can't really give it a whole lot of credit on that front.
@@MrProg-ey3tl to be fair there are a few original levels and in my opinion they are pretty fun, but the apfoach to the old levels is still somewhat different due to the new physiscs
@@wolfdragox5563 With everyone panning the cyberspace as much as they did, I ended up enjoying it more than the average person Zero expectations after the mess we got with Forces definitely helped lmao
What I don’t understand is what happened to the length of the stages and the creativity. I also couldn’t understand the control of every character. It should always be a thing where you decelerate when you let go of the stick instead of instantly stopping in a Sonic game. They did this again in Frontiers for the Cyber Space levels and I was not liking it.
Well, the control problems are born from Forces being built on top of Lost world which in its Mario like design has a run button and near instead speed stages of non, walk and run. Forces did not alter anything to give proper acceleration or deceleration instead does the game after walking a few steps switch from Lost world Walk to Lost World Run mode and if you don't move the analoge stick to the not-moving state. Frontiers was built on top of Forces so some of Lost Worlds weird quirks still pop up in it from time to time there.
@@worthybutter2004 Sega doesn’t develop their games, dev teams develop them. Sega itself is a corporate entity, an entity that has constantly meddled with Sonic’s potential and passion for the last 20 or more years.
The lack of creativity, overuse of automation, and complete and utter lack of new themes/assets is what makes these levels even worse than what they are. Because level ports of these in Generations, make them feel and play MUCH better. Great video btw!
7:50 That chemical plant level also has a fairly hard as nails time attack mission.... which most people don't even know the game has time attack missions... because they are hidden in the missions list.
Finally someone says it. This game doesn't deserve a mediocre pass. I think the only reason people call it that is because they're either too numb to care or they're just looking for something good in this huge pile of puke. This game isn't mid, it's bad.
They say it is mid because "it doesn't have that many bugs and is semi-polished". Like, yo, by that logic Frontiers is way worse than this and that gets a yikes from me.
That's because the game is consistent. It doesn't have any moments that we pray to be over with, like with werehog or other characters in SA2. It's fast, speedy mediocrity all the way.
@@Gnidel I thought people hate the Classic Sonic-stages in the game. I personally don't, but I'm an anomaly anyways in that I enjoy the game as far as it can be enjoyed, but I still think it's dirt.
I didnt find that it did anything egregiously bad so as to be completely and thoroughly unfun, and it frankly didn't last long enough to even drag on too long. It's a veritable 4 out of 10. Like its not good but not lacking in anything resembling a redeeming quality.
Hard disagree. This game isn't memorable enough to be bad. It's boring and forgettable, which is arguably even worse than just "bad". Though I do think that some Sonic fans nowadays are way too forgiving of the games' flaws, just because they see something good. I've seen people defending Sonic '06 for that kind of crap.
I really want to see you cover the Cyberspace stages from Sonic Frontiers. I feel like those levels fit with this series and could be considered "modern Sonic boost gameplay"
@@hessenic6862 IMO Frontiers moveset is pretty neat. the stomp bounce, double jump, air dash and drop dash (mostly for the 2d) sections make some of the levels fun to pay. A notable example is 2-2 which I consider better than the original dragon road act 3, mainly because of the stomp bounce and the ability to cancel your air dash. Also I personally enjoyed the 11 ish original stages and the adventure 2 remixed ones are pretty well adapted. The biggest change to the level design is the removal of the "boost through enemies" mechanic, which really helps streamline the levels and make it more about platforming instead of basically level filler.
Like Hessenic said, they pale in comparison to the greatness of Gens or Unleashed, so there's wouldn't be much positive to say other than "better than forces, bar was low etc".
To be fair, cyberspace wasn’t their main focus. I have no idea how people enjoyed it more than the open world where sonic controls have never felt so fluid while going high speeds
@@hessenic6862 You aren't a shitty, unwieldy, clunky, uncomfortable tank that can't precisely platform or turn when boosting in Frontiers compared to most boost games, and the original stages are better than most boost stages.
@@hessenic6862 the boost is not broken. You can't kill enemies with it, so they finally fixed that. Also, helped the new developers to learn how to level design Sonic
Been a Sonic fan since I was a kid, and I've played most of the mainline games. I played Sonic Forces a few years ago, and that's the only Sonic game that I quit playing because it was so bad. I remember there being a stage by the end of it where I couldn't keep track of my character because the background was so polluted and the platform colors were so similar to everything else that I kept losing lives. Since Sonic Frontiers has come out, the reviews seem to be alright, so I hope to have fun with a new 3D Sonic game once again!
2D Sonic handles like ass in Forces too, and it's SO baffling. It just felt SO BAD after Sonic Mania. Honestly, going from a game made by fans to a game made by Sonic Team... it really showed how poorly Sega seemed to get Sonic in 2017. I've yet to play Frontiers but it still seems like Sega doesn't get it from the reactions I've heard so far.
Oh my fucking God, I thought I was the only one that had that sentiment on 2D Modern Sonic. It's ridiculous that people give Mortar Canyon a pass simply because it's 3D, even though it's literally features the most counter-intuitive game design in the entire medium. The 2D sections in this game aren't bad because of them fundamentally being 2D, they're bad because they have incredibly basic level design, terrible physics and still have the boost to win minimal gameplay a lot of the time. I would gladly play every single 2D section from boost game likes Unleashed and Generations a thousand times over before I even touch a single polygon of the 3D sections in Forces because good level design is good level design regardless if the camera let's you see the characters ass or not.
I feel like everyone on Sonic Team's level design team needs to be forced to watch this video, and your generations one, every time they are about to start making a new level, cause something like Forces' level design cant be allowed to happen again.
@@DamashiTheKaotic there were only 3 level designers. One worked on lost world and the other 2 never worked on a sonic game before. None of the level designers of colors and generations worked on this game.
All I can think about when I play forces is how, before its release, I was hoping Sega would do more than simply make generations 2. When I played what could best be called colours 0.9, I would have happily bought gens with a 2 slapped on it and some extra levels.
I will say Forces is infinitely more enjoyable from the perspective of a speedrunner. Seeing how many cool tricks these guys use to get faster times opens up these incredibly dull levels in some fascinating ways. Null Space is probably the only Forces level I go back to time attack. Not only does it just have some half-decent 3D design in general, but its circular design means players who are paying attention can cut ahead to later parts of the level and shave off entire minutes. It's still way too short, and pales in comparison to its predecessors, but the little depth it has makes me want to run around and explore it fully.
That’s also why I think Mortar Canyon is a great level in terms of speedrunning. Flying through it and finishing in under a minute is incredibly satisfying
The only thing I found semi-fun to speedrun was the final boss. And even then, a run could so easily die in any phase and especially phase 3, that I just stopped eventually.
Fun fact about mystic forest: You can beat it just by holding the boost button without any need to turn at all, if you time your jumps and homing attacks well. It actually makes the level more fun, ironically
It's telling that people call these stages extremely short. Statistically, many of them are not actually _that_ short for Sonic stages - but design-wise they are so lacking in the "actually going somewhere" department that they end up _feeling_ very short.
I completely agree ESPECIALLY THE TAKE ON 2D IN SONIC GAMES. All ur boost vids have been an AMAZIN analysis on wut makes this work & I thank u for that. As a boost fan Forces is a disgrace
The only positive things I have to say about Sonic forces is that the graphics are pretty nice, and that I love Infinite's character design. I hope we get to see him again in the future!
my thing mostly is, ive always preferred 3d sonic, not just boost but all of it. Though i totally draw the line at forces, it really leaves a bad taste in your mouth its crazy
I like the objectively incorrect marketing that was “from the people who brought you colors and generations” when the level designers had nothing to do with this game
7:13 Network Terminal is the best level in this game. It’s got the most fun paths and platforming and it’s pretty challenging to enter one of the two tubes in the 2D section. Even if it leads to a worse path than the slower one. I would say Network Terminal has a pretty cool shortcut at the left side in the beginning. It’s easily missable, but it helped made that 3D section more enjoyable.
When it comes to the "hate 2D" discourse, I think a lot of it has to do with how it's often used as a crutch to avoid making actual 3D level design. Sonic Colors for example is constantly praised as one of the best 3D games yet 90% of its runtime is 2D platforming and the rest is linear 3D corridors. And Generations, while its level design is still fantastic, made the inclusion of 2D platforming in modern levels redundant with the introduction of a character that fully plays in that 2D plane. In a way, it was a missed opportunity to make more 3D platforming. And this trend seems to have persisted outside of the boost games with both Lost World and Boom relying on 2D whenever it is time for harder platforming challenges. It's easy to forget but we haven't had a fully 3D Sonic game since 06, and as such some would not agree that 3D Sonic has been fixed since it uses 2D to make it work. Not that there's anything wrong with an hybrid but that's the main argument I've seen on the matter. In the end, good level design is good level design, but I can understand that for some it feels weird to call these games 3D Sonic when so much of their runtime is spent in the 2D plane.
Unlike either of the Sonics, the Avatar stages felt fairly solid I'm terms of controls. The slower speed and the expanded vertical mobility options made the extended 2D platforming segments flow better. It honestly felt like they used how the Avatar handles as their baseline when designing levels and only made minor tweaks to accommodate Sonic.
The avatar's pretty broken too. If you're touching the stick at all while landing from a jump, you take off at top speed. Makes precision platforming feel awful.
I definitely found the avatar levels the most fun part of this game, but "the most" is doing the heavy lifting of that sentence. The shoehorned 2D classic sonic levels just felt soulless. Forces has no sense of identity; I legit couldnt tell if it was trying to be the next boost Sonic, Generations 2.0, or the OC creator Sonic, because those ideas felt at odds with each other in practice. If anything the saving grace with the game is that it's very short, but you dont spend 40$ for a game this short and stupid, and much of that shortness comes from how genuinely anticlimactic the levels are, right as they feel they're gonna get to the epic moment of the level they just end
I used my brother's PS plus free trial to play Sonic Forces for free, even got the platinum trophy. As for the game itself, I have no strong feeling towards it. Don't like it, don't hate it. Truly a game of all time.
At least someone doesn’t hate it, but you’re not wrong to be neutral about it. Metropolis looks a little fleshed out, but Mystic Jungle is amazing and The Chemical Plant’s glow up is underrated.
A lot of valid points but I do think Forces deserve to be looked in a different mentality, everything you mention holds true but I think where Forces shine is its Arcade's like speedrun. A lot of the footage you shown have you missing out on all the clever skips you could accomplish, the game even punish for relying so much on the boost when you don't have too, like those sections in Metropolis when you fall off the stage despite that you can actually make the turn perfectly if you slow down a bit. Or how the double jump is not meant to vertical reach, its meant for horizontal reach, and you can save so much time by doing so, like the lower path of Luminous Forest became a lot more rewarding if you instead of jumping over the platforms, use the boost to impulsive yourself and use the double boost to skip the platforms and bottomless pits, you can also do this double jump to jump over the steps of Egg Gate without slowing down. And you can in fact skip a lot of the automation, like that rail cinematic in the city stage, you can literally jump over it and land safety in the next part of the level, saving a lot of time, you can do the same thing in the spyral rails of Metropolis. The game is less boost to win and more never slow down at all, keep a rhyme where you never slow down and make each replay of the level have a shorter time scored which the game despite giving out S ranks like candy, it rewards you with more costumes for you character by replaying the levels and breaking your own and the leaderboards time records. Does this mean Forces is actually this "hidden gem only a person with a IQ of 300 understand"? no lol, but I do believe it has more merit than given credit, and I do think what I described is the design philosophy and not just incompetence, we see how in Frontiers having the same devs show they are truly capable of making a full 3D area filled of many objective and alternative paths but the Cyberspace levels follow this exact "never stop" game design philosophy, they even changed the near perfect controls of the Open Zone to something more like Forces in the Cyberspace levels because this "bad controls" actually compliment the design, even Sonic's weird acceleration in Forces become non-existing if you never actually stop and instead keep going faster and faster. That's my opinion on the design of Forces' levels, nice video BTW.
I usually hate 2D sections because of how bad I am at them and because I'm so used to 3D games in general, so Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations (and now Sonic Frontiers) are possibly my top 3 favorite Sonic games with Mania also being fun despite me being dog crap at it, but Sonic Forces for me almost made me stop playing boost formula Sonic games entirely since I no longer had access to Sonic Unleashed and I didn't have the money to buy Generations
It's always fun to actually see someone be able to dissect Sonic level design on a deeper level; it's a way more deceptively complicated topic than most people likely think, to the point where the complexity of asking "What makes Sonic stages good?" can practically compare to asking that question for the likes of Metroid. All the more pleasant to see someone actually be able to dissect that kind of thing in the boost games, which are way easier to misjudge off surface impressions. So here's my respect, good sir. Good video.
I’m so excited to see what your review for this mini series’ finale, featuring the best opening week selling sonic game since the genesis console, sonic frontiers
As a die-hard Sonic fan, I legitimately think this is one of the worst games Ive ever played in general. False marketing, really weird music compositions, AWFUL level design and physics, classic Sonic even being in the game at all, horrible writing and flanderization of once-good characters, etc. This game is FAR from being good, let alone mediocre. At least with werehog I can actually play the game and learn reaction based combos for a better reward and use the mechanics to my advantage for quick traversal. At least when playing with other characters in 06 and SA1 and SA2, I can enjoy learning speedruns or the thrill of finding the emeralds quickly. Forces has none of that because the game is designed in a way where it literally doesnt let you do anything because of how automated it is (and any tricks you CAN pull off are so unsatisfactory because of how short the levels are in the first place) I think Sonic fans only call Forces mediocre instead of bad because it was the only Sonic game in the last like 13 years to feature the other side characters as heavily as they were in Forces. Sonic fans have a tendency to try and excuse or mitigate any legitimate issues in new Sonic games if the game presents itself somewhat decently. Even Frontiers had this issue, and that game still ended up being 7/10 across the board from most players and critics. Sonic fans need to draw a line in the sand at some point because I think it actively encourages SEGA to think they don't need to give Sonic Team more time, money, and a bigger development team. Its leading to such incredibly low-budget experiences (like Forces) or games that feel incredibly unfinished in several areas of the game (like Frontiers) But if you ask me, the only thing Forces is consistent at is being downright terrible.
This is refreshing to watch! Legit, this is refreshing! As a Sonic fan for years, I can agree that this is easily the worst game we’ve gotten out of any of them, and I genuinely don’t understand how. They had the time to iron it out, they had the team I’d IMAGINE, yet this is what we got. I can’t in good faith defend this game in the least.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about the Classic Sonic levels, because holy cow, they are complete dog water. They _brutalized_ Classic Sonic. Going from Mania to Forces was like going from Super Mario World to Hotel Mario. It feels *awful.* And the level design... It's just bad. He should've been cut entirely. Maybe if they didn't have to also make levels for him, they would've had time to refine the boost and avatar gameplay.
Unleashed is the only 3D Sonic to do 2D stages well. Classic Sonic doesn't even feel like the older games, but people seem to excuse Generations flaws because of nostalgia googles.
7:53 - 8:06 Funny thing is, they did. It's just that the version of the physics here is the grandchild version of them. Because it's a slightly edited version of Lost World's physics (which were made for Mario Galaxy-esque tube level design which is why the side scrolling sections were so jank), and the physics from IT were an altered version of Generations'.
I shit you not, after I clicked on this video I tried to full screen it; but ended up accidentally pressing forward to the end as you said "Sonic Forces." Given the title and the comedic timing, I laughed my ass off for a good 7 mins before starting the video over again. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The main problem with Sonic forces for me is that the levels are over before they’ve even got going. The most shameful example is mortar canyon, I was able to beat it in 57 seconds as super sonic and 1 minute and 2 seconds as normal Sonic/Shadow.
I don't get how people can say Sonic forces is just mediocre. It's downright bad, maybe the worst sonic game, the ONLY thing it does well is the character customisation cause it has a lot of options.
So, regarding some comments in the video. 7:55 "Couldn't they have used Sonic's physics from Sonic Generations?" 1. Based on the datamined game content, Forces was built off of the physics and mechanics of Sonic Lost World. I haven't looked at the data myself, but apparently there are references to parkour, which Lost World had but Generations and Unleashed did not. It should also be noted that Lost World had three main set speeds (walking, running, spin dashing), which were switched between using dedicated buttons. To my understanding, Forces effectively took a run button-based system and tried to make it a momentum-based run system, which as you can see didn't work. I don't know why they built Forces off of Lost World, but it explains the awful physics in Forces. 9:41 "Some of the worst 3D level design I've seen." 2. Despite the game coming from "the same teams that made Colors and Generations", the game only had 3 level designers, and only one of them was a veteran. Even then, said veteran worked on Sonic Lost World, which had a different gameplay style. Coupled together with the short, presumably rushed development cycle you can see how the game's stages turned out the way they did. This also highlights an issue with the boost style stages when not given proper time. They're high detail, but you move past said detail incredibly fast, so if there isn't enough time and level geometry to account for that you get a Sonic Forces.
I think the fact that they focused so much on the Avatar and it's stages probably was also a big detriment to the game. Instead of putting their resources on the Sonic experience, they decided AGAIN to expend most of their resources on a new, side experience instead of the core of what people used to expect from Sonic games. I appreciate how Sonic Team apparently always tries to bring new things to the table, be it new mechanics or main gimmicks. But I think that their/Sega's lack of focus and vision for what is accomplishable on their small budget and time constraints most of the benefit those ideas could bring, as they mostly seem to hinder the core of the experience, instead of aggregating more value to it.
I think you should analyze the level design in the game Spark the Electric Jester 3. It's honestly so good it's like the peaks of Generations but most of the time
Just started playing this game for the first time and I am way past irritated at how shitty the shadow levels are designed. Especially the third one. Holy shit.
I found myself nodding my head and agreeing with everything in this video,, and yet i still like this game because I played it when i was like 9. Sometimes nostalgia really blinds people lol.
Are you going to do a video on Sonic Frontiers? I enjoyed the boost series and your play by play of the levels and their different pathways. I would be interested to see a comparison between the "open world" element of the game and the old 3d levels or at least how they differ.
you know game is bad when i get all s ranks on my first run, only have to repeat some classic sonis stages, i beat the game in two days, but to be fair i played all doy for two days, very few games make me do that, and i wasnt bored at all
Truly a game made for people who claimed Sonic was always about holding right and going fast... while ignoring all the platforming and skill shots that allowed you to go fast.
I remember playing the first stage of Sonic Forces, thinking, "Well that was worthless, never playing that again.", and then I proceeded to put down the game and never touch it again. You can see some semblance of a game in Sonic '06 even if it is a complete mess. Sonic forces is worse than all of that because it's just nothing. It's literally a nothing burger of a game, worthless in nearly all respects. It's an insult how Sonic Generations was so good and released years ago. Yet they can't even live up to that level of quality. I question wtf goes on in Sonic Team that they make such horrible decisions. Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Boom -> Sonic Forces. Just dud after dud after dud. It's so frustrating that they finally found a formula that worked in Sonic Generations, but then they threw all of that in the garbage can for these shitty, gimmicky games. It makes me genuinely mad in a sense because it's one thing to experiment and try new things. It's a whole other thing to just throw away all your work in perfecting 3D sonic to just have more gimmicks, drastic shifts in playstyles, and just plain laziness. I don't want an Open Zone game, I want a Sonic game. Try your hand at an open world sonic game when you can consistently make good 3D sonic games. Usually you shake up a formula when it gets old. Sonic team will shake up a formula just because. Even if they can't do it properly. It makes sense that forces was terrible. Their last two games were Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom. Were they even familiar enough with good 3D Sonic level design? Hell no. I'm beyond disappointed how they built up a formula that worked in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. They could've used what they learned from working on those three games to make a masterpiece. But no, we get Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom, and Sonic Forces. Being a Sonic Fan is frustrating because again and again, Sonic goes in the wrong direction. We know that Sonic works in 3D and in 2D. Sonic has some of my favorite platformers. So why does it constantly get mistreated. Why is it that Mario can keep evolving and improving while Sonic has to always flounder. I don't think I'll ever truly understand why Sonic Team does what they do. But I can say I'm extremely dissapointed.
1: Boom was not made by Sonic Team. Sega ruined it, but it has nothing to do with the mainline-devteam. 2: They made Frontiers because people would have torn them apart if they made another game with the boost stages as a focus, even if it was twice as good as Gens. 3: Forces is quite similar to Colors in design and ideas. I think both games suck, but even if one thinks Colors was good, it built up to Forces. It especially didn't build up to Gens, because Gens was in development before Colors was and the Colors-content in Gens is the worst part of the dang game. 4: Lost World came out after they made 4 very destinct Boost games(Unleashed, Unwiished, Colors, Gens), with only Black Knight to break that streak and that barely counts. If they just kept going, that would have infact made the Boost Formula stale and LW wasn't even the worst thing ever from a gameplay-perspective, it was a decent way to shake it up for a second, considering how Colors already had its mario inspiration printed on its shirt, just reskinned to be legally destinct.
Yea, idk how people defend this game. This is a bad game, not a mediocre game. There are way too many flaws in this game to ever even be considered a mediocre game.
12:27 ”Do people really hate 2D Modern Sonic THAT much that they'd rather hold a button to win?” Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and 06: Am I a joke to you? (Those games also have Modern Sonic)
This game has no lives system. It has permanent checkpoints and a save feature. They could have easily ramped up the difficulty with trickier platforming, more enemies and hazards to dodge and less leniency for damage without worrying too much about becoming frustrating or innacessible, since the player can always quickly retry a tricky section as many times as they want, being safe in the knowledge that they won't loose any progress. They could have made this game mechanically harder and still have it be pretty accessible for noobs due to the friendly checkpoint system. You know THOSE games that frustrate you insanely difficult level design that kils you for the slightest mistake, leaves little room for error and punishes you extremely harshly for any mistake? Sonic Forces is like the polar opposite of that, except still annoying.
I do not understand how people are now claiming that this game is good now. They hardly even explain why because there isnt many redeeming qualities. And if you do find some its overshadowed by the over abundance of negatives.
The only redeeming qualities are "Null Space"(Even tho most of the stage isn't even null space) and the bosses being fine, which yeah...not really enough to save it. I legitimately think the romhacky leveledits in the Shadow-DLC give a better experience. Which is why I often call Forces "40 bucks for Episode Shadow with a free meme attached"
Yes, I do in fact hate 2d sections that much lol. Honestly I don't mind Sonic Forces but that's because I got it on sale for like, six bucks, and it sure is six bucks worth of game.
turns out several level designers from unleashed to generations left sonic team pre lost world + forces, some of which went to nintendo make mario kart 8's tracks
Ah yes, that thing where people praised Mortar Canyon because "it's all 3D, iT mUsT bE gOoD!!!". Where 2D sections became such a _trendy_ thing to complain about without any sense or reason, just not having any was enough to call a stage good. (And the 2D sections 100 % had their purpose in Generations and Unleashed.)
I’m glad you talked about the platforming omg. I’ve always been good at it in most sonic games but forces makes me aggravated. Sonic can jump 10 feet in 3D but in 2D I can’t get to the next platform because his fat ass keeps falling just short!!!
This is a really great video in a great series. However, I find the fact that you don't mind 2d sections interesting since their disliked by a large portion of the 3d community.
The 2d sections are great as a boost fan but mainly at setpieces that test Sonic's maneuverability. It's satisfying to see Sonic slide, jump, somersault around without having so much camera perspective. It makes the player seem impressive.
as someone who is craving a 3D sonic game, lemme say that just holding a button to win as long as the camera is behind sonic again isn't what it takes for me or at least I don't think it is. I haven't enjoyed any of the boost games the way I enjoyed the sonic games I do like, and they all lay uncomplete in my memory cards and such granted, a sizeable chunk of that is the 2D sonic segments in the 3D sonic games. If I wanted to play 2D sonic I would go play Mania
Another thing to note is that none of these stages have a memorable level design. It's interesting that, when playing Frontiers, I could tell the level design of City Escape or Sky Rail even if the level only had the basic stage layout without the same design. Now, most of the stages are just "boost forward" or "jump on platforms."
It always baffles me how a game that seems to put so much emphasis on the spectacle instead of the level design has worse spectacle than let's say Generations. There you had Eggrobos breaking windows in Sky Sanctuary, Cop Speeders chasing you down the skyscraper and breaking into pillars, giant robo fish that wants to eat you, Eggman blimp that follows you through the level until you make it crash it into a clock tower or the Tornado in Crisis City. Sure, most of these were reused from games the levels originated from but they were still refined and nicely combined gameplay and spectacle. Unleashed and Colors did it great as well! But Forces? You're only running in the straight line be it 3D or 2D, there is no dynamic camera, no cinematic gameplay, from time to time there is something in the background or everything is just a QTE that is completely separated from level design. I just can't comprehend how a game can be so bland despite having such a great premise.
My main problem with sonic forces is that the levels are WAY too short. Yes they’re designed like shit, but even if they were designed good they still end in like a minute. I need at least 3-5 minutes for a sonic stage not 1. It’s like taking a bite of chicken and it’s all bone. There’s nothing there.
Such a bummer that so many Sonic games are not great :( A long time ago, I don't remember who or where, somebody online said "the series is fundamentally flawed in that 'going fast' all the time necessitates imprecise control, the inability to see ahead (in the 2D games), and gigantic levels that you zoom thru (3d series) with very weak and samey enemies (asset use not maximized)" I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree with all of that (racing games exist)... but some times it feels more spot on in terms of critiques of Sonic.
What i hate about new Sonic game is the reticle i like the way you homing attack in Adventure 2 and P06 it just makes you feel wayyyy more immersed than knowing exactly which enemies you can hit. It makes sense tho cuz ofc we all know to well how someetimes you just dont homing attack the thingg you were sure you could himing attack
Personally I love the reticule, but I do wish that it was optional. It wouldn't be hard to hide it after all. They could even give options: Reticule & SFX, Reticule only, SFX Only, Off
I bought this game the other day for 9.99. I figured the reimagined mods and Overclocked would be well worth it. I did decide to go through it normally for the sake of it. Forces levels are some of the worst things I have had to experience. Hell Forces as a whole might be the worst Sonic game I have ever beaten. It's worse than 06 that's for damn sure.
I tried to play Forces vanilla after I completed Frontiers, and I just couldn't do it. I ended up downloading a mod that changed how Sonic turned, but I didn't like it and ended up making my own that served my purposes well enough so that I could play without wanting to gauge my eyes out, and it was still an awful game. Soon after, Overclocked released and I decided to redownload the game and give it one last shot. That mod makes it worth paying for Forces alone
![[Full Episode] The Restaurant War Thailand ศึกพ่อค้าซ่าแม่ค้าแซ่บ Episode 1 | 22 ก.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BuzQ70v-UZQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The "From the people that brought you Colors and Generations" thing that showed up at the start of the Sonic Forces trailer was definitely a bold faced lie cause it's crazy how different Gens and Forces are from each other. Pretty sure Forces only had like 2 level designers and one of them was completely new to designing levels
3 level designers, two of them were new and one of them had only ever worked on Lost World
You forgot about how they worked on the game for a single year
@@WhoAmI928 They did not, and even if that was the case there are plenty of Sonic games that have been in development for 1-2 years that are considerably better than Forces
@@WhoAmI928 That was a mistranslation, but yeah it was still rushed
@@CTGReviews The thing is, nobody can actually agree on how long the development actually was, even tho the statement itself was mistranslated. That's because details are very easily obscured or falsified. For all we know they were not working on the game for a year(Because Sonic Team was also running a mobile game and helping Mania), were making concepts and their art for a year, were making the graphics engine for a year and then were making the game in the remaining year.
My biggest problem with this game it that it WANTS to play itself. There are dozens of moments in this game where if you're touching the stick at all Sonic will just get sent flying off of a slope or a turn and it drives me insane.
It’s like that one annoying little cousin
@@thegaragebandman8592 No its not????
the fact that they removed the drift is what pisses me of the most
When Sonic has too much 90s attitude to be controlled
@@bocodamondo It was really needed in Modern Sonic's Metropolitan Highway
Some people just have to realize that ,,at least it's not Sonic 06!" is not an argument or suddenly makes a bad game like Forces good...
You could argue Sonic 06 is better because at least Sonic 06 has good level design. It's just that the game barely functions and the characters are sluggish
@@HatZ.PetoriaZero Oh, I would personally argue it's a far more enjoyable experience. And at least 06 got passion put into it, even if it falls flat.👍
This.
I'd take a hundred 06's over a single Forces, at least the shit '06 gameplay was at least... gameplay?
The one thing I will give Forces over 06 are the bossfights. The ones in Forces are pretty decent at least, while the one in 06 Sonic story(Didn't play the other stories) are the worst thing ever.(If the most fun boss is Silver, that should tell one that there's an issue) Otherwise, yeah. At least 06 felt like what it was supposed to be, an SA-adjacent game. Forces is meant to be Generations-adjacent, but it's just not.
@@HatZ.PetoriaZeroi agree with the level design for sure after seeing p-06 the stages look so fun and satisfying to run through, cant wait to play the project for myself when its done hopefully late 2023-2024
i was relieved when the sonic frontiers cyberspace levels had different things you had to quickly react to, and how sonic's speed increases gradually & naturally. it wasn't always just boost to win, unlike forces. and for most of the levels, they're fun to go back and replay to obtain all the vault keys. i wish there were more new designs though...way too many of them were green hill zone themed. but overall i am very happy with frontiers :)
Well the thing about Frontiers, is that the Cyberspace levels were basically copy-pasted from other 3D Sonic games. So you can't really give it a whole lot of credit on that front.
@@MrProg-ey3tl to be fair there are a few original levels and in my opinion they are pretty fun, but the apfoach to the old levels is still somewhat different due to the new physiscs
Yeah I actually enjoyed the cyberspace far more than I thought I would, obviously are not gens level of quality but are a lot better than Forces
@@wolfdragox5563 With everyone panning the cyberspace as much as they did, I ended up enjoying it more than the average person
Zero expectations after the mess we got with Forces definitely helped lmao
It really annoys me how hyped up Frontiers gets because it's better than complete garbage even though it's so mediocre
forces is the embodiment of everything people thought the boost games were back in the day.
What I don’t understand is what happened to the length of the stages and the creativity. I also couldn’t understand the control of every character. It should always be a thing where you decelerate when you let go of the stick instead of instantly stopping in a Sonic game.
They did this again in Frontiers for the Cyber Space levels and I was not liking it.
I understand what happened to creativity - reduced budget after flop of Sonic Boom initiative happened.
@@Gnidel in other words, Sega happened. Sonic Boom flopped because it was bonkers, and it was bonkers because of poor management from Sega.
Well, the control problems are born from Forces being built on top of Lost world which in its Mario like design has a run button and near instead speed stages of non, walk and run.
Forces did not alter anything to give proper acceleration or deceleration instead does the game after walking a few steps switch from Lost world Walk to Lost World Run mode and if you don't move the analoge stick to the not-moving state.
Frontiers was built on top of Forces so some of Lost Worlds weird quirks still pop up in it from time to time there.
@@SparkTFS I thought Sonic Boom was made by a different team than Sega?
@@worthybutter2004 Sega doesn’t develop their games, dev teams develop them. Sega itself is a corporate entity, an entity that has constantly meddled with Sonic’s potential and passion for the last 20 or more years.
Sonic Forces is a perfect example of 'spectacle over substance' game design.
Even then, I don't think there's much spectacle that impressed me like the giant orca whale and the monster-sized GUN truck.
Well, Infinite changing gravity and using tentacles to destroy roads was spectacular.
Except there's less spectacle in this game than in Unleashed, Colours or Generations imo
@@ultimatedumbass4640not even your opinion its factual. This game rarely has cool camera angles and when they do them it feels off
The lack of creativity, overuse of automation, and complete and utter lack of new themes/assets is what makes these levels even worse than what they are. Because level ports of these in Generations, make them feel and play MUCH better. Great video btw!
7:50 That chemical plant level also has a fairly hard as nails time attack mission.... which most people don't even know the game has time attack missions... because they are hidden in the missions list.
Finally someone says it. This game doesn't deserve a mediocre pass. I think the only reason people call it that is because they're either too numb to care or they're just looking for something good in this huge pile of puke. This game isn't mid, it's bad.
They say it is mid because "it doesn't have that many bugs and is semi-polished". Like, yo, by that logic Frontiers is way worse than this and that gets a yikes from me.
That's because the game is consistent. It doesn't have any moments that we pray to be over with, like with werehog or other characters in SA2. It's fast, speedy mediocrity all the way.
@@Gnidel I thought people hate the Classic Sonic-stages in the game. I personally don't, but I'm an anomaly anyways in that I enjoy the game as far as it can be enjoyed, but I still think it's dirt.
I didnt find that it did anything egregiously bad so as to be completely and thoroughly unfun, and it frankly didn't last long enough to even drag on too long.
It's a veritable 4 out of 10. Like its not good but not lacking in anything resembling a redeeming quality.
Hard disagree. This game isn't memorable enough to be bad. It's boring and forgettable, which is arguably even worse than just "bad".
Though I do think that some Sonic fans nowadays are way too forgiving of the games' flaws, just because they see something good. I've seen people defending Sonic '06 for that kind of crap.
Forces' biggest problem imo is the blue swollen nuts the stages leave me when they seem they're about to pop off into something neat
I really want to see you cover the Cyberspace stages from Sonic Frontiers. I feel like those levels fit with this series and could be considered "modern Sonic boost gameplay"
@@hessenic6862 IMO Frontiers moveset is pretty neat. the stomp bounce, double jump, air dash and drop dash (mostly for the 2d) sections make some of the levels fun to pay. A notable example is 2-2 which I consider better than the original dragon road act 3, mainly because of the stomp bounce and the ability to cancel your air dash.
Also I personally enjoyed the 11 ish original stages and the adventure 2 remixed ones are pretty well adapted. The biggest change to the level design is the removal of the "boost through enemies" mechanic, which really helps streamline the levels and make it more about platforming instead of basically level filler.
Like Hessenic said, they pale in comparison to the greatness of Gens or Unleashed, so there's wouldn't be much positive to say other than "better than forces, bar was low etc".
To be fair, cyberspace wasn’t their main focus. I have no idea how people enjoyed it more than the open world where sonic controls have never felt so fluid while going high speeds
@@hessenic6862 You aren't a shitty, unwieldy, clunky, uncomfortable tank that can't precisely platform or turn when boosting in Frontiers compared to most boost games, and the original stages are better than most boost stages.
@@hessenic6862 the boost is not broken. You can't kill enemies with it, so they finally fixed that.
Also, helped the new developers to learn how to level design Sonic
Been a Sonic fan since I was a kid, and I've played most of the mainline games. I played Sonic Forces a few years ago, and that's the only Sonic game that I quit playing because it was so bad. I remember there being a stage by the end of it where I couldn't keep track of my character because the background was so polluted and the platform colors were so similar to everything else that I kept losing lives.
Since Sonic Frontiers has come out, the reviews seem to be alright, so I hope to have fun with a new 3D Sonic game once again!
forces was so disappointing, the custom character had the most entertaining gameplay imo
2D Sonic handles like ass in Forces too, and it's SO baffling. It just felt SO BAD after Sonic Mania. Honestly, going from a game made by fans to a game made by Sonic Team... it really showed how poorly Sega seemed to get Sonic in 2017. I've yet to play Frontiers but it still seems like Sega doesn't get it from the reactions I've heard so far.
as someone who pre-ordered sonic forces. i've never regreted a purchase more. i have brought completely broken $60 games, and had a better time.
Same😔
wasn't forces $40 when it first released?
Dude I bought this game on sale for $10 and still considered getting a refund after beating it in 3 hours.
@@Voltricity435other more broken games at £60 gave me more entertainment.
Without Sonic Forces, we wouldn’t have Sonic Forces Speed Battle.
Oh my fucking God, I thought I was the only one that had that sentiment on 2D Modern Sonic. It's ridiculous that people give Mortar Canyon a pass simply because it's 3D, even though it's literally features the most counter-intuitive game design in the entire medium. The 2D sections in this game aren't bad because of them fundamentally being 2D, they're bad because they have incredibly basic level design, terrible physics and still have the boost to win minimal gameplay a lot of the time. I would gladly play every single 2D section from boost game likes Unleashed and Generations a thousand times over before I even touch a single polygon of the 3D sections in Forces because good level design is good level design regardless if the camera let's you see the characters ass or not.
I like the flow of Mortar Canyon. Everything is fast paced and fun and flows together nicely.
I feel like everyone on Sonic Team's level design team needs to be forced to watch this video, and your generations one, every time they are about to start making a new level, cause something like Forces' level design cant be allowed to happen again.
(- I feel like everyone on Sonic Team's level design team needs to be forced to watch this video -)
There are so many problems with this sentence.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 100% could be worded better, but I still stand by over all sentiment, hyperbole aside.
@@DamashiTheKaotic there were only 3 level designers. One worked on lost world and the other 2 never worked on a sonic game before. None of the level designers of colors and generations worked on this game.
News: A new game was released, it's called Sonic Frontiers
They should hire/bring back more experienced deisgners, instead of trying too profit just by hiring unexperienced ones. Also, give more time for them.
All I can think about when I play forces is how, before its release, I was hoping Sega would do more than simply make generations 2. When I played what could best be called colours 0.9, I would have happily bought gens with a 2 slapped on it and some extra levels.
I love just your dedication of breaking down and analyzings parts of sonic levels
I will say Forces is infinitely more enjoyable from the perspective of a speedrunner. Seeing how many cool tricks these guys use to get faster times opens up these incredibly dull levels in some fascinating ways.
Null Space is probably the only Forces level I go back to time attack. Not only does it just have some half-decent 3D design in general, but its circular design means players who are paying attention can cut ahead to later parts of the level and shave off entire minutes. It's still way too short, and pales in comparison to its predecessors, but the little depth it has makes me want to run around and explore it fully.
That’s also why I think Mortar Canyon is a great level in terms of speedrunning.
Flying through it and finishing in under a minute is incredibly satisfying
The only thing I found semi-fun to speedrun was the final boss. And even then, a run could so easily die in any phase and especially phase 3, that I just stopped eventually.
Fun fact about mystic forest: You can beat it just by holding the boost button without any need to turn at all, if you time your jumps and homing attacks well. It actually makes the level more fun, ironically
It's telling that people call these stages extremely short. Statistically, many of them are not actually _that_ short for Sonic stages - but design-wise they are so lacking in the "actually going somewhere" department that they end up _feeling_ very short.
this game requires less player input than minecraft story mode
I completely agree ESPECIALLY THE TAKE ON 2D IN SONIC GAMES. All ur boost vids have been an AMAZIN analysis on wut makes this work & I thank u for that. As a boost fan Forces is a disgrace
The only positive things I have to say about Sonic forces is that the graphics are pretty nice, and that I love Infinite's character design. I hope we get to see him again in the future!
It’s been 5 years and I still enjoy watching people bash on this game
Sonic Forces is the perfect example of "All Style, no Substance" Game design
Mortar Canyon is only liked because it's entirely in 3D.
my thing mostly is, ive always preferred 3d sonic, not just boost but all of it. Though i totally draw the line at forces, it really leaves a bad taste in your mouth its crazy
I like the objectively incorrect marketing that was “from the people who brought you colors and generations” when the level designers had nothing to do with this game
7:13
Network Terminal is the best level in this game. It’s got the most fun paths and platforming and it’s pretty challenging to enter one of the two tubes in the 2D section. Even if it leads to a worse path than the slower one.
I would say Network Terminal has a pretty cool shortcut at the left side in the beginning. It’s easily missable, but it helped made that 3D section more enjoyable.
Ready for an encore? Sonic Forces: Overclocked is amazing, and is receiving an update on the 28th!
When it comes to the "hate 2D" discourse, I think a lot of it has to do with how it's often used as a crutch to avoid making actual 3D level design. Sonic Colors for example is constantly praised as one of the best 3D games yet 90% of its runtime is 2D platforming and the rest is linear 3D corridors. And Generations, while its level design is still fantastic, made the inclusion of 2D platforming in modern levels redundant with the introduction of a character that fully plays in that 2D plane. In a way, it was a missed opportunity to make more 3D platforming. And this trend seems to have persisted outside of the boost games with both Lost World and Boom relying on 2D whenever it is time for harder platforming challenges. It's easy to forget but we haven't had a fully 3D Sonic game since 06, and as such some would not agree that 3D Sonic has been fixed since it uses 2D to make it work. Not that there's anything wrong with an hybrid but that's the main argument I've seen on the matter.
In the end, good level design is good level design, but I can understand that for some it feels weird to call these games 3D Sonic when so much of their runtime is spent in the 2D plane.
Day 25 of Novidember.
Almost finished with the month. Lovely.
Don't really have any opinions since I haven't played this game
I thought this was about Frontiers at first and was very confused. “I thought this was an open world game” lol
Technically Frontiers has Cyberspace, which is level-based gameplay
Unlike either of the Sonics, the Avatar stages felt fairly solid I'm terms of controls. The slower speed and the expanded vertical mobility options made the extended 2D platforming segments flow better. It honestly felt like they used how the Avatar handles as their baseline when designing levels and only made minor tweaks to accommodate Sonic.
The avatar's pretty broken too. If you're touching the stick at all while landing from a jump, you take off at top speed. Makes precision platforming feel awful.
@@ShinMajin only if you have certain wispon variants equipped but yea that is a clunky part of their controls
i thought avatar was the worse controlling character, like honestly i'd rather play classic sonic in forces
There is a time and place for Sonic Forces: never and in the garbage.
It’s Occasionally when I am still waiting for my 21st birthday to get Frontiers and at home for me when there’s a time and place for Sonic Forces.
I definitely found the avatar levels the most fun part of this game, but "the most" is doing the heavy lifting of that sentence. The shoehorned 2D classic sonic levels just felt soulless. Forces has no sense of identity; I legit couldnt tell if it was trying to be the next boost Sonic, Generations 2.0, or the OC creator Sonic, because those ideas felt at odds with each other in practice. If anything the saving grace with the game is that it's very short, but you dont spend 40$ for a game this short and stupid, and much of that shortness comes from how genuinely anticlimactic the levels are, right as they feel they're gonna get to the epic moment of the level they just end
I used my brother's PS plus free trial to play Sonic Forces for free, even got the platinum trophy.
As for the game itself, I have no strong feeling towards it. Don't like it, don't hate it. Truly a game of all time.
At least someone doesn’t hate it, but you’re not wrong to be neutral about it. Metropolis looks a little fleshed out, but Mystic Jungle is amazing and The Chemical Plant’s glow up is underrated.
A lot of valid points but I do think Forces deserve to be looked in a different mentality, everything you mention holds true but I think where Forces shine is its Arcade's like speedrun. A lot of the footage you shown have you missing out on all the clever skips you could accomplish, the game even punish for relying so much on the boost when you don't have too, like those sections in Metropolis when you fall off the stage despite that you can actually make the turn perfectly if you slow down a bit. Or how the double jump is not meant to vertical reach, its meant for horizontal reach, and you can save so much time by doing so, like the lower path of Luminous Forest became a lot more rewarding if you instead of jumping over the platforms, use the boost to impulsive yourself and use the double boost to skip the platforms and bottomless pits, you can also do this double jump to jump over the steps of Egg Gate without slowing down. And you can in fact skip a lot of the automation, like that rail cinematic in the city stage, you can literally jump over it and land safety in the next part of the level, saving a lot of time, you can do the same thing in the spyral rails of Metropolis.
The game is less boost to win and more never slow down at all, keep a rhyme where you never slow down and make each replay of the level have a shorter time scored which the game despite giving out S ranks like candy, it rewards you with more costumes for you character by replaying the levels and breaking your own and the leaderboards time records.
Does this mean Forces is actually this "hidden gem only a person with a IQ of 300 understand"? no lol, but I do believe it has more merit than given credit, and I do think what I described is the design philosophy and not just incompetence, we see how in Frontiers having the same devs show they are truly capable of making a full 3D area filled of many objective and alternative paths but the Cyberspace levels follow this exact "never stop" game design philosophy, they even changed the near perfect controls of the Open Zone to something more like Forces in the Cyberspace levels because this "bad controls" actually compliment the design, even Sonic's weird acceleration in Forces become non-existing if you never actually stop and instead keep going faster and faster.
That's my opinion on the design of Forces' levels, nice video BTW.
God I wish I could play Generations…
I’ve played it! It’s sooo good🔥🔥🔥🔥
I usually hate 2D sections because of how bad I am at them and because I'm so used to 3D games in general, so Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations (and now Sonic Frontiers) are possibly my top 3 favorite Sonic games with Mania also being fun despite me being dog crap at it, but Sonic Forces for me almost made me stop playing boost formula Sonic games entirely since I no longer had access to Sonic Unleashed and I didn't have the money to buy Generations
It's always fun to actually see someone be able to dissect Sonic level design on a deeper level; it's a way more deceptively complicated topic than most people likely think, to the point where the complexity of asking "What makes Sonic stages good?" can practically compare to asking that question for the likes of Metroid. All the more pleasant to see someone actually be able to dissect that kind of thing in the boost games, which are way easier to misjudge off surface impressions. So here's my respect, good sir. Good video.
I’m so excited to see what your review for this mini series’ finale, featuring the best opening week selling sonic game since the genesis console, sonic frontiers
Lost Valley? Why is it lost? Who lost it?
Is it because a bunch of the green is gone?
Is that what they mean?
As a die-hard Sonic fan, I legitimately think this is one of the worst games Ive ever played in general. False marketing, really weird music compositions, AWFUL level design and physics, classic Sonic even being in the game at all, horrible writing and flanderization of once-good characters, etc. This game is FAR from being good, let alone mediocre. At least with werehog I can actually play the game and learn reaction based combos for a better reward and use the mechanics to my advantage for quick traversal. At least when playing with other characters in 06 and SA1 and SA2, I can enjoy learning speedruns or the thrill of finding the emeralds quickly. Forces has none of that because the game is designed in a way where it literally doesnt let you do anything because of how automated it is (and any tricks you CAN pull off are so unsatisfactory because of how short the levels are in the first place)
I think Sonic fans only call Forces mediocre instead of bad because it was the only Sonic game in the last like 13 years to feature the other side characters as heavily as they were in Forces. Sonic fans have a tendency to try and excuse or mitigate any legitimate issues in new Sonic games if the game presents itself somewhat decently. Even Frontiers had this issue, and that game still ended up being 7/10 across the board from most players and critics. Sonic fans need to draw a line in the sand at some point because I think it actively encourages SEGA to think they don't need to give Sonic Team more time, money, and a bigger development team. Its leading to such incredibly low-budget experiences (like Forces) or games that feel incredibly unfinished in several areas of the game (like Frontiers)
But if you ask me, the only thing Forces is consistent at is being downright terrible.
This is refreshing to watch! Legit, this is refreshing!
As a Sonic fan for years, I can agree that this is easily the worst game we’ve gotten out of any of them, and I genuinely don’t understand how. They had the time to iron it out, they had the team I’d IMAGINE, yet this is what we got. I can’t in good faith defend this game in the least.
I'm surprised you didn't talk about the Classic Sonic levels, because holy cow, they are complete dog water. They _brutalized_ Classic Sonic. Going from Mania to Forces was like going from Super Mario World to Hotel Mario. It feels *awful.* And the level design... It's just bad. He should've been cut entirely. Maybe if they didn't have to also make levels for him, they would've had time to refine the boost and avatar gameplay.
Unleashed is the only 3D Sonic to do 2D stages well. Classic Sonic doesn't even feel like the older games, but people seem to excuse Generations flaws because of nostalgia googles.
7:53 - 8:06
Funny thing is, they did. It's just that the version of the physics here is the grandchild version of them. Because it's a slightly edited version of Lost World's physics (which were made for Mario Galaxy-esque tube level design which is why the side scrolling sections were so jank), and the physics from IT were an altered version of Generations'.
I shit you not, after I clicked on this video I tried to full screen it; but ended up accidentally pressing forward to the end as you said "Sonic Forces." Given the title and the comedic timing, I laughed my ass off for a good 7 mins before starting the video over again. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The main problem with Sonic forces for me is that the levels are over before they’ve even got going. The most shameful example is mortar canyon, I was able to beat it in 57 seconds as super sonic and 1 minute and 2 seconds as normal Sonic/Shadow.
I don't get how people can say Sonic forces is just mediocre.
It's downright bad, maybe the worst sonic game, the ONLY thing it does well is the character customisation cause it has a lot of options.
12:46
I'm glad that you chose this glitch out of the hundreds to show off. It's one of my favorites.
So, regarding some comments in the video.
7:55 "Couldn't they have used Sonic's physics from Sonic Generations?"
1. Based on the datamined game content, Forces was built off of the physics and mechanics of Sonic Lost World. I haven't looked at the data myself, but apparently there are references to parkour, which Lost World had but Generations and Unleashed did not. It should also be noted that Lost World had three main set speeds (walking, running, spin dashing), which were switched between using dedicated buttons. To my understanding, Forces effectively took a run button-based system and tried to make it a momentum-based run system, which as you can see didn't work. I don't know why they built Forces off of Lost World, but it explains the awful physics in Forces.
9:41 "Some of the worst 3D level design I've seen."
2. Despite the game coming from "the same teams that made Colors and Generations", the game only had 3 level designers, and only one of them was a veteran. Even then, said veteran worked on Sonic Lost World, which had a different gameplay style. Coupled together with the short, presumably rushed development cycle you can see how the game's stages turned out the way they did. This also highlights an issue with the boost style stages when not given proper time. They're high detail, but you move past said detail incredibly fast, so if there isn't enough time and level geometry to account for that you get a Sonic Forces.
I think the fact that they focused so much on the Avatar and it's stages probably was also a big detriment to the game. Instead of putting their resources on the Sonic experience, they decided AGAIN to expend most of their resources on a new, side experience instead of the core of what people used to expect from Sonic games.
I appreciate how Sonic Team apparently always tries to bring new things to the table, be it new mechanics or main gimmicks. But I think that their/Sega's lack of focus and vision for what is accomplishable on their small budget and time constraints most of the benefit those ideas could bring, as they mostly seem to hinder the core of the experience, instead of aggregating more value to it.
I think you should analyze the level design in the game Spark the Electric Jester 3. It's honestly so good it's like the peaks of Generations but most of the time
Not to mention that the final boss is a complete copy and paste of the final boss from sonic colors. No creativity whatsoever
At least the soundtrack was 10/10
Outside of Classic's songs (seriously,they sound like Sonic 4 songs but ear piercing,the only passable one is Casino Forest) I can agree
7:56 they couldn’t because forces was running off of a different engine than generations
I think the levels were made to accommodate Sonic's wierd physics, when Sonic's physics should've been made to accommodate the levels.
At least the Rookie levels are OKAY. Very well paced when Rookie is on his own.
You should check out Sonic Forces Re-imagined mod and the Classic Sonic improvement mod
Just started playing this game for the first time and I am way past irritated at how shitty the shadow levels are designed. Especially the third one. Holy shit.
I hope you'll cover the Sonic Rush games eventually. They're the best boost games imo.
I found myself nodding my head and agreeing with everything in this video,, and yet i still like this game because I played it when i was like 9. Sometimes nostalgia really blinds people lol.
Why is there too many people saying forces is good???? sonic fandom can go crazy sometimes
Are you going to do a video on Sonic Frontiers? I enjoyed the boost series and your play by play of the levels and their different pathways. I would be interested to see a comparison between the "open world" element of the game and the old 3d levels or at least how they differ.
Cyberspace sucks open zone is the best parts of the game
the best part of Sonic Forces is that the Double Boost is funny
you know game is bad when i get all s ranks on my first run, only have to repeat some classic sonis stages, i beat the game in two days, but to be fair i played all doy for two days, very few games make me do that, and i wasnt bored at all
Are you winning son?
Truly a game made for people who claimed Sonic was always about holding right and going fast... while ignoring all the platforming and skill shots that allowed you to go fast.
I remember playing the first stage of Sonic Forces, thinking, "Well that was worthless, never playing that again.", and then I proceeded to put down the game and never touch it again.
You can see some semblance of a game in Sonic '06 even if it is a complete mess. Sonic forces is worse than all of that because it's just nothing. It's literally a nothing burger of a game, worthless in nearly all respects. It's an insult how Sonic Generations was so good and released years ago. Yet they can't even live up to that level of quality.
I question wtf goes on in Sonic Team that they make such horrible decisions. Sonic Lost World -> Sonic Boom -> Sonic Forces. Just dud after dud after dud. It's so frustrating that they finally found a formula that worked in Sonic Generations, but then they threw all of that in the garbage can for these shitty, gimmicky games. It makes me genuinely mad in a sense because it's one thing to experiment and try new things. It's a whole other thing to just throw away all your work in perfecting 3D sonic to just have more gimmicks, drastic shifts in playstyles, and just plain laziness.
I don't want an Open Zone game, I want a Sonic game. Try your hand at an open world sonic game when you can consistently make good 3D sonic games. Usually you shake up a formula when it gets old. Sonic team will shake up a formula just because. Even if they can't do it properly.
It makes sense that forces was terrible. Their last two games were Sonic Lost World and Sonic Boom. Were they even familiar enough with good 3D Sonic level design? Hell no. I'm beyond disappointed how they built up a formula that worked in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. They could've used what they learned from working on those three games to make a masterpiece. But no, we get Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom, and Sonic Forces.
Being a Sonic Fan is frustrating because again and again, Sonic goes in the wrong direction. We know that Sonic works in 3D and in 2D. Sonic has some of my favorite platformers. So why does it constantly get mistreated. Why is it that Mario can keep evolving and improving while Sonic has to always flounder. I don't think I'll ever truly understand why Sonic Team does what they do. But I can say I'm extremely dissapointed.
1: Boom was not made by Sonic Team. Sega ruined it, but it has nothing to do with the mainline-devteam.
2: They made Frontiers because people would have torn them apart if they made another game with the boost stages as a focus, even if it was twice as good as Gens.
3: Forces is quite similar to Colors in design and ideas. I think both games suck, but even if one thinks Colors was good, it built up to Forces. It especially didn't build up to Gens, because Gens was in development before Colors was and the Colors-content in Gens is the worst part of the dang game.
4: Lost World came out after they made 4 very destinct Boost games(Unleashed, Unwiished, Colors, Gens), with only Black Knight to break that streak and that barely counts. If they just kept going, that would have infact made the Boost Formula stale and LW wasn't even the worst thing ever from a gameplay-perspective, it was a decent way to shake it up for a second, considering how Colors already had its mario inspiration printed on its shirt, just reskinned to be legally destinct.
Yea, idk how people defend this game. This is a bad game, not a mediocre game. There are way too many flaws in this game to ever even be considered a mediocre game.
12:27 ”Do people really hate 2D Modern Sonic THAT much that they'd rather hold a button to win?”
Adventure 1, 2, Heroes and 06: Am I a joke to you? (Those games also have Modern Sonic)
So glad that frontiers came out.
I can’t believe how they decided to use whisps with no sense
This game has no lives system. It has permanent checkpoints and a save feature.
They could have easily ramped up the difficulty with trickier platforming, more enemies and hazards to dodge and less leniency for damage without worrying too much about becoming frustrating or innacessible, since the player can always quickly retry a tricky section as many times as they want, being safe in the knowledge that they won't loose any progress.
They could have made this game mechanically harder and still have it be pretty accessible for noobs due to the friendly checkpoint system.
You know THOSE games that frustrate you insanely difficult level design that kils you for the slightest mistake, leaves little room for error and punishes you extremely harshly for any mistake?
Sonic Forces is like the polar opposite of that, except still annoying.
I do not understand how people are now claiming that this game is good now. They hardly even explain why because there isnt many redeeming qualities. And if you do find some its overshadowed by the over abundance of negatives.
The only redeeming qualities are "Null Space"(Even tho most of the stage isn't even null space) and the bosses being fine, which yeah...not really enough to save it. I legitimately think the romhacky leveledits in the Shadow-DLC give a better experience. Which is why I often call Forces "40 bucks for Episode Shadow with a free meme attached"
nobody is claiming this game to be "good"
@@games_on_phone89 you'd be surprised
@@Tr4yst3r no no, legitimately, no one in the sonic youtube fanbase is claiming forces to be good
@@games_on_phone89 you havent checked then
I don't get how these videos still get views
Forces has no DRIFT plus bad level designs... already reasons for me to never touch this game.
Luminous forest is my least favorite sonic stage while jungle joyride is my favorite sonic level
Yes, I do in fact hate 2d sections that much lol.
Honestly I don't mind Sonic Forces but that's because I got it on sale for like, six bucks, and it sure is six bucks worth of game.
Yeah I'll give forces a pass if the game actually got a discount of $6
turns out several level designers from unleashed to generations left sonic team pre lost world + forces, some of which went to nintendo make mario kart 8's tracks
bruh what are you talking about this game has no level design
Spicy meatball on this one, I like it
Someone share this with the guys saying that the Shadow's level designs from Sonic X Shadow Generations are the same from Forces.
The music goes hard tho shame the same amount of effort wasn’t put into the rest of the game
Description: I hate Sonic Forces.
Tell us something we DON'T know. -_-
Ah yes, that thing where people praised Mortar Canyon because "it's all 3D, iT mUsT bE gOoD!!!".
Where 2D sections became such a _trendy_ thing to complain about without any sense or reason, just not having any was enough to call a stage good. (And the 2D sections 100 % had their purpose in Generations and Unleashed.)
I’m glad you talked about the platforming omg. I’ve always been good at it in most sonic games but forces makes me aggravated. Sonic can jump 10 feet in 3D but in 2D I can’t get to the next platform because his fat ass keeps falling just short!!!
Happy Thanks Lowart day!
This is a really great video in a great series. However, I find the fact that you don't mind 2d sections interesting since their disliked by a large portion of the 3d community.
The 2d sections are great as a boost fan but mainly at setpieces that test Sonic's maneuverability. It's satisfying to see Sonic slide, jump, somersault around without having so much camera perspective. It makes the player seem impressive.
as someone who is craving a 3D sonic game, lemme say that just holding a button to win as long as the camera is behind sonic again isn't what it takes for me
or at least I don't think it is. I haven't enjoyed any of the boost games the way I enjoyed the sonic games I do like, and they all lay uncomplete in my memory cards and such
granted, a sizeable chunk of that is the 2D sonic segments in the 3D sonic games. If I wanted to play 2D sonic I would go play Mania
Another thing to note is that none of these stages have a memorable level design. It's interesting that, when playing Frontiers, I could tell the level design of City Escape or Sky Rail even if the level only had the basic stage layout without the same design. Now, most of the stages are just "boost forward" or "jump on platforms."
It always baffles me how a game that seems to put so much emphasis on the spectacle instead of the level design has worse spectacle than let's say Generations. There you had Eggrobos breaking windows in Sky Sanctuary, Cop Speeders chasing you down the skyscraper and breaking into pillars, giant robo fish that wants to eat you, Eggman blimp that follows you through the level until you make it crash it into a clock tower or the Tornado in Crisis City. Sure, most of these were reused from games the levels originated from but they were still refined and nicely combined gameplay and spectacle. Unleashed and Colors did it great as well!
But Forces? You're only running in the straight line be it 3D or 2D, there is no dynamic camera, no cinematic gameplay, from time to time there is something in the background or everything is just a QTE that is completely separated from level design. I just can't comprehend how a game can be so bland despite having such a great premise.
My main problem with sonic forces is that the levels are WAY too short. Yes they’re designed like shit, but even if they were designed good they still end in like a minute. I need at least 3-5 minutes for a sonic stage not 1. It’s like taking a bite of chicken and it’s all bone. There’s nothing there.
Such a bummer that so many Sonic games are not great :(
A long time ago, I don't remember who or where, somebody online said "the series is fundamentally flawed in that 'going fast' all the time necessitates imprecise control, the inability to see ahead (in the 2D games), and gigantic levels that you zoom thru (3d series) with very weak and samey enemies (asset use not maximized)"
I'm paraphrasing, and I don't agree with all of that (racing games exist)... but some times it feels more spot on in terms of critiques of Sonic.
What i hate about new Sonic game is the reticle i like the way you homing attack in Adventure 2 and P06 it just makes you feel wayyyy more immersed than knowing exactly which enemies you can hit. It makes sense tho cuz ofc we all know to well how someetimes you just dont homing attack the thingg you were sure you could himing attack
Personally I love the reticule, but I do wish that it was optional. It wouldn't be hard to hide it after all. They could even give options: Reticule & SFX, Reticule only, SFX Only, Off
I bought this game the other day for 9.99. I figured the reimagined mods and Overclocked would be well worth it. I did decide to go through it normally for the sake of it. Forces levels are some of the worst things I have had to experience. Hell Forces as a whole might be the worst Sonic game I have ever beaten. It's worse than 06 that's for damn sure.
I tried to play Forces vanilla after I completed Frontiers, and I just couldn't do it. I ended up downloading a mod that changed how Sonic turned, but I didn't like it and ended up making my own that served my purposes well enough so that I could play without wanting to gauge my eyes out, and it was still an awful game. Soon after, Overclocked released and I decided to redownload the game and give it one last shot. That mod makes it worth paying for Forces alone