What Made Sonic Forces So AWFUL
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 พ.ค. 2024
- Five years after the release of Sonic Forces, and also five years since I started tackling Sonic games, we have finally reached the moment everyone has been waiting: my video on Sonic Forces. It's a game that needs no introduction, having been discussed time and time again by the Sonic community in the half-decade since it came out, but now that Frontiers is about to drop, I figured this was the perfect time to throw my hat into the ring and discuss why Sonic Forces failed to execute on anything it set out to do.
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Chapters:
00:00 Sonic Forces
05:52 It Just Fails
08:53 Modern Sonic/The Avatar Don't Work
14:00 The Level Design
17:18 Classic Sonic Doesn't Work
20:11 Mods
22:43 An Undercooked Game
25:48 The Story
30:20 The Last Straw
33:33 What Does It All Mean?
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#sonic #sonicthehedgehog #sonicforces - เกม
![คณะขวัญใจ - นางสาวขวัญใจ [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/a8zn5pGlRUY/mqdefault.jpg)
The biggest problem with sonic forces is that the game just plays itself. They were too afraid of making something that just didn’t play well so they made a lot of the game automated segments
And unfortunately for them, a game that plays itself is not a game that plays well.
The same problem happened with Lost World. Some great ideas but Sonic Team didn’t trust players in doing it on their own so they placed invisible springs everywhere. They did it again in forces even though it was heavily criticized in lost World.
@@autosaver um lost world made me be lost in levels. It's not as linear as forces
For the millionth time "it's the execution that counts more than the concept", regardless of what Forces's devs were going for, they failed on all fronts
@@autosaver I think the issue with Lost World came down moreso to bad level design/ physics. Sonic Lost World 3DS plays much better when it comes to parkour, spindash, and running but for some reason even there Dimps arguably underutilized the better potential implementations of the Parkour system in favor of stages that over-relied on the wisps as the central gimmick to the stage. In the Wii U version we have overall worse physics and less of a reliance on wisps to progress but for some reason there's still far too many stages with gimmicks completely unrelated to the parkour mechanic. It's such a baffling decision on both fronts to actively ignore what was potentially the most interesting addition to Sonic's moveset in favor of Gimmicks completely unrelated and at times very unnatural to what is expected of the Sonic playstyle.
I will never forget when they announced a trailer that showed the sillouette of a new playable character without even hinting that it was a customizeable avatar, so people were legit worried that it was the sillouette of Bubsy. Good times.
That was so long ago but I remember it like it was yesterday
The bubsy memes were fucking gold doe
I frankly would have taken that looking back, as at least then it's failure would have made sense, as it's bubsy... Instead it's just Sega, as per normal.
This was hilarious lmao
When I was streaming Sonic Forces 5 years ago, I did make a custom OC of Bubsy to piss my viewers off.
*Greatest laugh I ever had*
My biggest issue with the story is that 90% of it is told by talking heads on the map screen. The dialogue tells this story of huge battles and an apocalyptic takeover of the world by Eggman, if only we had a VISUAL MEDIUM TO REPRESENT THESE THINGS.
Yeah, I felt like the entire game was just blatantly half-finished on release. It felt like a really lazy and rushed execution of an idea that was REALLY cool in a lot of ways. Like, the game starts with Eggman WINNING, and he's KILLING everyone who tries to stop him. Everyone believes Sonic's dead, Tails is going crazy from his best friend being "dead," even the OC has a tragic backstory with Eggman's goons literally gunning down their friends in the streets, and the main antagonist (other than Eggman himself) is SUPPOSED to be so strong he has powers almost akin to a god.
But it just felt like literally no part of the game was finished before release and they had to rush something out to meet a deadline. I mean come on, you don't even get to fight half of the copied boss characters that Infinite creates.
the motherfreaking Microsoft PowerPoint ass text when Eggman supposedly "takes over the world".
Knuckles getting 80% of his army wiped out by attacking with everyone on a whim is hilarious.
He approved his own meme
Yeah unless your forces are less than 100 heads an 80% casualty rate is an INSANE loss, unthinkable and impressively bad, really.
@@LeoMidori losing 80% is insanely bad no matter how many people you got
@@DrakeMystical It's easy for a squad of less than 10 to be wiped, but generally yeah.
Worse than any real life battle ever even @@LeoMidori
Why the survivors didn't try to overthrow him is a mystery.
I think the reason people associate the term "Meta Era" with "bad" is because many of us are just sick to death of meta-ness in pop culture generally. Every story these days seems to come with its own riff track. They're constantly winking at the camera going "Isn't this stupid? See, we know we're stupid. We're making fun of our own stupidity and that means we're cool." I think what people miss from 2000's media is it's earnestness. We're tired of irony, bring sincerity back, even if its cheesy.
it's like they don't wanna admit their faults and downside so badly that they make a mockery out of it or make fun of it.
This is why nowadays I lean more into positivity bc it allows possible access to optimistic and the will to move forward
This is called Hanging a lantern on something, if your premise or story content has something ridiculous and unrealistic, you call attention to it being stupid and it supposedly excuses the silliness
@@Whiteythereaper Lampshade, but yea.
I think when it comes to such characterizations I've been craving a tone like what we got in that Sonic film that came out a couple years ago where it has some jokes at its own expense but because it has a heartwarming sort of Innocence to all the characters involved. I personally am super sick of Sonic being edgy and have been waiting for a version of Sonic that takes himself seriously, but no one else really does until the chips are down. But taking the piss on your own content because you know the content is bad isn't clever, it's a shield to protect yourself from criticism.
I think we can all agree we miss the days where Sega and Sonicteam actually TRIED like they used to.
@@minty6623 z
I think the biggest sin a game can commit is being boring to play... that is Sonic Forces.
It "works" but it feels bland and lifeless gameplay-wise, it just makes you look back to the past games and make you think what we lost along the way.
And we GOT back
Being mediocre is worse than being bad. At least when it's bad, you remember why and how it's bad, and you laugh at it because it was laughably so. Being mediocre and boring and forgettable is the worst fate for a game.
@Beanoptodon exactly why I think 06 is a better game than forces
@@gokublack9724 100%
This is exactly why I don't think Sonic Adventure 2 is a great game. The only non-boring gameplay was Sonic & Shadow. The rest of the gameplay was mind numbingly boring
Generations has its problems but it's the only 3D Sonic that is fun to play a majority of the time. Not a fan of nostalgia baiting but at least the only stretch of "boring" is the final boss.
Holy crap it does NOT feel like it's been 5 years since this came out
It feels like a month, a week even.
@@rosalinamacarita01 Really? I thought it was a day.
Ikr? At most I felt like it was 2 years
Same with Mania, but on the positive side
Right like I remember my friend bought it, and beat it in an afternoon in my living room. Time really flies
It's kind of funny that this is the second time the writers didn't understand the difference between time travel and being from a different dimension. See Blaze the Cat's appearance in 06.
"sonic forces me to sit through 3 hours of boredom with little to no actual impact" is a pretty fitting description for this game ngl
“Sonic Forces me to make an overused joke that died 4 years ago”.
@@ToonyTails congrats,you got the joke. now go back to playing fornite
@@21Handguns congrats you replied to a reply that frankly shouldn’t have been made! Now go back to your sad life!
@@ToonyTails you literally admitted your comment shouldn't have been made. children these days I swear,it's like reverse evolution
You mean 1.5 hours. At least my first playthrough lasted that long, and it felt like 6 hours lol.
I think the funniest part about this game is when i went to buy sonic forces at gamestop, they gave me the pre-order package for free because nobody pre-ordered the game
I got the bonus edition like, a month after my birthday.
My birthday is in January. One of my siblings found the bonus edition 3 months after the game came out.
I also got bonus edition for Christmas in 2017 along with my then-brand new Switch. Seriously I don’t even think the “standard” edition even exists physically
Lucky day.
@@EonTheAien That's pretty standard actually. I can't even count the number of games I've seen, years after launch, with "Day One Edition" on the cover.
Ouch.
What I always found remarkable about the custom character creator is that I don't think anyone was actually able to actually recreate their characters, the possibility space of the editor just didn't overlap with the sorts of characters people were making up.
Mine was pretty simple, so I basically had it.
That's something that really blew my mind. That the character creator was _that_ basic and unappealing. The clothing options were great, but the base body design was just _so bad_
Lego games have way better character customization.
@@Yuli_BanAnd you know the worst part? They did it on purpose.
@@DarkLink1996.Wait, what do you mean by that?
The fact that we’re literally counting how many seconds we get to play the game per level is astounding
😂True
I'm surprised you didn't talk about how characters were treated in this game. Tails was at his WORST in Forces. In this game, he hangs out with Classic Sonic, cowers in front of the Egg Pawns and Chaos, can't even repair Omega, doesn't even use his Tornado and _"True dat"._
I could pretty much say the same thing with Sonic, Silver and Knux, but I don't feel like ranting about it, so rant over.
Edit: Turns out J talked about Tails cowering in front of Chaos 0 at 29:56. Sorry, my bad.
Forces did a total 180 from ANY character development Tails received in previous games. The Adventure games start off with Tails' separation from Sonic, eventually even defeating Eggman and saving station square without Sonic's help at all. Adventure 2 builds on this with Tails fighting by himself without direct support from Sonic.
Forces seems to delegate Tails into some sort of damsel in distress. They threw all the confidence he gained out the window. Tails would've died (or get captured) if Classic Sonic wasn't there to save the day.
I went on sort of a rant there, but what they did to Tails' character still irks me.
Forces did EVERYONE dirty:
Modern Sonic was cocky and a bit naraccististic, not once taking into consideration anyone else aside from his “Buddy”
Classic Sonic and the rest of the cast have NO reason to be here
Knuckles is an idiotic commander
Tails is a wimp and absolute coward
Shadow’s just “edgy the hedgy”
Eggman is still a clown
Infinite is so cringe, he’s like a 12 year old edge lord who isn’t allowed to buy the new Fortnite skin
And your OC is a lifeless as a sheet of paper
In SA tails kicked the ass of a chaos who was like ten times stronger than the one in forces. Yet in this game he’s crying screaming and pissing like a little bitch. Seriously?
This is why I prefer Odyssey. At least Mario doesn’t have much inconsistencies compared to Sonic
True dat
my biggest problem was that it promised so much and delivered so little 😭
Same here man. First new Sonic game I've bought since Sonic Chronicles, and I was let down big time. Frontiers might be the last time I ever look into a Sonic game if it flops.
@@TheShapeshifter What do you think of Frontiers so far btw? Does it look promising?
@@ownedwfactsnlogic it looks like a Sonic game I've dreamed about for years now. I've always wanted a more complex combat system in a Sonic game and enemies that didn't just die to a homing attack. I'm cautiously optimistic about the game since Sonic Team is very unpredictable now.
@@TheShapeshifter Yeah, the combat system seems really fleshed out and thoughtful but it looked a tad janky from what I've seen of the gameplay previews: really hope it'll actually be functionnal at release, if the game is at least good it'll be a W
I'm with you there, really hope they don't mess up this one
@NyoKaibo Yeah, Frontiers is Sonic's last shot with a lot of fans. I can sense it the initial reveal all the way to where we are right now has been a rollar coaster to say the least.
“Do I have regrets?…I have a few!!!!”
Sounds like a villain monologue 😂
More like Frank Sinatra:
"Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention"
i did what i had to do, and saw it through without exemption
The biggest issue/ wasted potential (besides, you know, the whole game) was the execution of Infinite's powers/character. I remember a little while after the game's release there was an AMA one of the writers of the game (If i find the link I'll link it in an update) where they [the writers] listed a few concepts they wanted to try but were denied either because Sonic team didn't like it or resources.
1) "Sonic's Torture & the Fake Sonic"
It's mentioned in game and never touched upon. If I remember correctly the original idea was that Sonic would be "tortured" mentally. Infinite would put Sonic in different illusions making him believe he'd escape only to find out it was just an illusion, breaking Sonic's confidence. These illusions would be used as the tutorial stage. Inifinte's constant mentioning of 'data' is because he was using data collected from Sonic's reactions to different scenarios in order to create a fake sonic that would infiltrate the rebellion and HQ so that eggman could snuff them out for good. The fake Sonic would indeed do this and the invasion on the HQ would occur however mid battle Inifinte would be distracted by Silver and the illusion would go wrong, classic Sonic would show up through a portal and a boss fight would ensue against the fake sonic or "Sonic.exe" (Yes they wanted to canonize SONIC.EXE, they thought it'd be a nice reference to the 'Fun is Inifinite' screen where the concept of sonic.exe came from and a nod the fandom would get)
The reason this was shot down was because Sonic Team said that "Sonics not allowed to be sad or be shown as the bad guy" also they didn't like the idea of referencing sonic.exe
2) "Tails and Classic Sonic"
After the Sonic.exe fight Tails has a sort of mental break, "If they can't trust Sonic, who can they trust?". This is why when Chaos shows up Tals is not mentally in a place where he could fight, So classic sonic shows up to save Tails and that gives him hope, classic is from a diffferent dimention he finds out and is therefor guaranteed not an illusion so they can trust him until Tails can create a device that can determine what's an illusion and whats not.
This idea was scrapped because the Sonic.exe fight was denied
3) "The Avatar's Original Role"
Leading up to forces there were a lot and I mean a LOT of theories that the playable character was somehow involved in Infinite's backstory, in the AMA this was confirmed a part of the original concept. Again, if i remember correctly, the custom character was originally planned to be a childhood friend of Zero (Infinite's original name before it was changed to just be inifinte) and the whole game is trying to save their friend after their encounter with Inifinite, as shown in game. Because of this encounter they join the main cast and knuckles sends the avatar and the Chaotics to go investigate Infinite's origins. after a few levels the custom hero would find a computer with information on the phantom ruby as well as the location of the real sonic. The avatar would release sonic remotely and run to try and join him but is stopped by the Real Metal Sonic and a boss fight occurs. Meanwhile the real sonic escapes and the boss fight with Zavoc happens. Later the two would meet up and arrive at resistance HQ only to witness the tail end of Infinite's invasion. The two would split up Sonic saving silver and the custom hero finding tails to tell them about what they've learned about the phantom ruby. The avatar would learn about the fake sonic and that even tails doesn't trust sonic at this point because of what just happened. This would lead to Sonic and the avatar's close relationship because they are currently the only ones who know the truth.
Scrapped due to crunch time and other issues that Sonic Team had with Sonic and Tails portrayals
4) Misc Cuts due to crunch/budget/other obvious reasons
Sonic and shadow would have a moment where the two discuss being confused for illlusions
In the cutscene where infinite drops the sun Metal Sonic would Challenge Infinite due to it being jealous Inifinte beat sonic and if he kills him Metal would never get the chance to do it, this stalls long enough for the heroes to stop the Sun illusion
Super Sonic was going to be in the game, originally the Sun illusion was powered by the seven chaos emerald and while Inifinte was distracted the player would run to collect them to stop the illusion
Avatar would get their own unique "super" form by combining all the playable wisps
It was mentioned once that maybe the phantom ruby was a shard of solaris' core and infinite would actually be zero possed by mephiles but that was more a joke than anything.
Okay this is absolutely awesome
METAL SONIC VS INFINITE
PLAYABLE METAL SONIC
MAKE IT HAPPEN
I need this to become a mod or some sort of fangame. All of the missed potential makes much more sense now
Wow i never thought of infinites powers that hard until now…apparently the phantom ruby can make things real and fake somehow which i noticed already but am still weirded out by. But why can the phantom ruby also cause him to summon a sun and fly, and can supposedly shift gravity like it does in the capital city stage. Like what are the laws of this thing.
Y'know, the saddest thing about all this, is that it shows what could've actually been a great story (dunno if the gameplay would've been saved) was ruined by big company blacklisting anything fan game because they don't want to acknowledge that the fan games are better than official content.
It also shows a repeated trend from SEGA specifically and how little they care about their own franchise, characters, and developers. The crunch they force the developers through is unreal, and while I hope the developers can continue their work and get free reign over the story and creation of sonic media, I kind of hope SEGA goes bankrupt.
Lastly, I would like to say this is all from someone that has never actually played a sonic game all the way through, played a bit of colors and that's it. In other words this is all from an interested outsiders perspective, so perhaps take it with a grain of salt, or perhaps see it as a view untainted by nostalgia.
One of the big problems I had about Forces is that all Sonic's friends were pretty much useless the entire 6 months Sonic was gone! Almost all of them are just as fast and strong if not stronger than Sonic and none of them could handle anything until Sonic came back!? Out of the times I played Sonic games, I thought that it was completely insane that no one could do anything for so long...
Actually, Sonic and Shadow are the only ones that canonically have super speed
Tails does to some extent but it's not even comparable to Sonic
@@gukeoke6312 That's why I said ALMOST as fast. Most are definitely fast enough.
@@gukeoke6312 Blaze as well, she has the same speed as Sonic
And it makes zero sense for fucking Silver of all people, the guy who went out of his way to repair a broken timeline and restore his destroyed city back to normal and defeat a literally fucking god, was just doing nothing and hiding and being worried. Like I get the other characters but Silver? No way! He’d go out of his way to help everyone and defeat Eggman like how he went out of his way to save the city and defeat Iblis in 06, Silver is more capable of defeating Eggman’s army than anyone else and yet he’s standing there and doing nothing! And when he fights Infinite he gets completely bodied in just 2 hits, like Silver is strong and powerful asf, he breaks fucking boulders and can defeat gods and has some of the greatest psychokinesis capabilities ever, yet he can’t fight after being slammed into a wall? Tf is this shit?
@@angryboi595 Yeah true
Sonic Forces is such an 'appropriate' finale of the Colors/Meta era. A misguided one-size-fits-all title trying to please every Sonic fan under the Sun with pieces from current and previous eras. I remember one of the higher-ups at Sonic Team stating pre-release that the game will have "the tone of the Adventure games"; that goes to show how out of touch they were. Frontiers looks like it's heading in a different direction from the desperate Forces (I hope it turns out good).
Thanks for the retrospective, J. It was awesome teaming for the GBA games.
Yeah, the Adventure games weren't dark for the sake of being dark. They were shonen-esque stories that still maintained the charm of Classic Sonic, but were able to make it even better with excellent/cheesy voice acting.
@@smashmaster521 they had stories that were expansive they weren't any different tone wise than what came before them(people interpreted the Genesis games to be goofier then they actually were). Also bonus points for the Japanese audio, especially Juuga Sonic (Junichi)
Aaaaaand Iizuka just said they're trying to appeal to non Sonic fans and Sonic fans in Frontiers
Great
@@TechBlade9000 ...This is why I'm aiming to get Bayonetta 3 for Christmas instead of Sonic Frontiers. Now there's a franchise that knows how to deliver a quality experience.
Until SEGA gets their act together with Sonic, I'll just stick with the Sonic games I already own and play Mega Man for a quality franchise starring a blue hero. Seriously, people gave Capcom shit for how they've treated Mega Man in the past, but I can only name one Mega Man game that's truly bad because that franchise is consistent in its quality.
@@HordikaNate3821 As someone who's only played the 3D Sonic games in English, I will say that I wish I could see what the Japanese scripts of the Adventure games. Seriously, you'd think people would upload playthroughs of the Adventure games using those Translation Mods so more people who don't have powerful PCs can experience the improved scripts.
I love that unleashed and Black Knight are finally seen as decent games. Because I loved both of them, much more than any recent 3D sonic game
I like the classics adventures heroes unleashed and sonic and the black knight and also likes colors and generation and Mania can't wait for sonic frontier to come out.
The Dark Age games are far superior, yeah they have a few problems but with things like Last Story of Shadow's game and the final part of SATSR, they are definitely almost perfect if not truly that.
14:38, One of the worst things about this stage is that the enemies and Wisp capsules at the beginning are positioned like groups of bowling pins. It's almost as if the designers knew how lazy the level design was.
I can't believe you're finally at the end of this series. I've been here since the beginning of the Sonic Retrospective, and it feels like a dream now that you reached Forces. Godspeed to you, the rest videos and the Frontiers video!
Jokes on you I've been here since the original X6 review and haven't looked back since. I stopped watching him throughout 2019 or 2020 because he stopped all gaming content for a year to post multi-hour videos on the DCAU after getting burnt out on Mega Man which I wasn't interested in, but came back once he started doing Sonic primarily. Still looking forward to those mega man classic reviews, especially why he thinks Mega Man & Base (one of the worst games in that series) is some sort of masterpiece.
@@krimsonkatt I found J through the Sonic stories video, and then watched his X6 video(and the rest of the aimmxr) in 2018. He's gotten me interested in stuff I otherwise probably wouldn't care about
@@HordikaNate3821 Same here. Like, I vaguely cared about the old PS2 platformers before I discovered J, but J really help cement that I DESPERATELY wanted to play them. Too bad I can't for most of them since I don't have a PS2 (yet) and a lot of those games are really expensive and have never been re-released besides crappy PS3 ports.
@@krimsonkatt you can play the X legacy collection
@@krimsonkatt Oh? What's that supposed to mean?
*looks at PS3 version of The Sly Collection*
The most criminal thing about this game was wasting infinite he had so much potential as a main villain of the story or making him the final boss where he could of have infinite power giving super sonic a hard time but at the end they made him weak.
“How many times do I have to say it?! I AM NOT WEAK!!!”
Compare Infinite to say……Mephiles from Sonic 06. Despite his portrayal in that game being a bit sloppy at points, Mephiles, unlike Infinite, at least had the audacity to actually OFF Sonic, firing a fatal laser through his chest. Infinite, on the other hand, simply kicks Sonic to the curb in their 1st encounter at the beginning of Sonic Forces. However, during their 2nd encounter, Infinite once again kicks Sonic to the curb, only to……tell Sonic he’s not “worth offing” and just leaves him. WHAT?! At least Dr. Eggman scolds Infinite for this stupid action afterward.
One of my favorite reviewers played this and made his avatar another sonic, so the forces of eggman were defeated by the combined forces of Sonic, Sonic, and Sonic. Probably the funniest way to play this imo.
The fact that this video is basically as long as the game itself is shocking
Forces could of been the SATAM story the franchise needed. A darker take on the franchise while still keeping the elements that made Sonic who he is. Instead, we just basically gotten more of the same from Generations and Lost World where the story is practically non-existent and characters are act like headless chickens without Sonic carrying the victory for them.
It's almost like this game was trying to mimick the story style if generations and the adventure games while also just throwing more nostalgia on the pile by adding classic sonic with that extra hook of a custom charecter... but Sega wouldn't be a crowd pleaser would it? Sega wouldn't prey on nostalgia would they?
Speaking of SATAM, the Sonic Prime trailer gives that energy.
@@Echo-nn8dt ikr? I like that
They should’ve put the reveal that Sonic was still alive closer towards the final act, and they should’ve kept Classic out of the story altogether. Tails being traumatized by witnessing his best friend get beaten to death in front of him should’ve been shown differently. Shadow should’ve taken a main role in the story, Silver should’ve been utilized more, and the levels should’ve been longer with more variations on how you were supposed to complete them, ie: you need to find x number of data chips before completing the level, you need to rescue Charmy from a prisoner transport, or you need to secure supplies from one of Eggman’s trains.
Well it would’ve been impossible to show off Modern Sonic gameplay in that case
@@skibot9974 Exactly how would the gameplay be impossible? You could still have a plot for whatever modern Sonic's doing without the other characters, thus having a reason to play as him. All that was changed here is how things play out for a more interesting storytelling. It's as if you're saying Modern Sonic can't be played without interacting with his friends lmfao
Gameplay =/= Plot
@@skibot9974 isn't that what's shadow for?
The sad truth is that even if this game did have a well written story, you'd still get people complaining about it, and always for the most trivial of reasons!
"Urgh, too many stupid cutscenes! Why can't I just play the game? The stories in Sonic games ALWAYS suck, so Sega need to stop embarrassing themselves! Sonic stories should just be Sonic fighting Robotnik (not Eggman), running through loops, collecting rings, jumping on robots, AND THAT'S IT!No stinky friends! No yucky mouth noises, and no ugly green eyes! In fact, the whole game should've just been Sonic Mania 2!"
It's that attitude from these kinds of "fans" (if you can even call them that) that has caused Sega to devolve this once popular series into the shallow husk of what it once was, because Sega truly believe that listening to this kind of negativity will ultimately fix what was never truly broken.
I'm not calling any Sonic story perfect (although in my opinion I'd say that games like Sonic Adventure, SA2 and Heroes were pretty close) but you can tell when actual effort was put into the stories of these games. From about Sonic Lost World and onward it just felt like Sega one day just shrugged and went "what's the point anymore? We'll put in all this effort into a well written story and people will still call it garbage! So let's just do what Teen Titans Go did and turn all of our beloved characters into cheap parodies of themselves. That show is popular, right? This way we can be self aware and poke fun of our franchise as much as the internet does! After all, nobody cares that much, I mean, IT'S JUST SONIC THE HEDGEHOG, am I right?"
@@bowmaj8666 Yes. This is because they had terrible writers. And why for Frontiers they hired the main comic writer whose understood and properly wrote the franchise for years.
I think one of the things that pulled the story down so far was the fact that they took a very serious concept and treated it like a joke.
On paper, 'Eggman defeated Sonic and took over the world' sounds like a concept that could make an amazing story. Everyone is exhausted from the constant fighting, the world at large is terrified of Infinite and what he can do, some people are trying to stay optimistic while others are close to giving up completely, and Tails especially is just not himself after seeing what he thinks was his brother's death. So many ways to show the impact that a war can have on so many different kinds of people. And although the torture line was only in the English script and should thus be taken with a grain of salt, Sonic was still kept in a small cell (possibly solitary confinement, although I don't know if that's only in English either) for 6 months straight, chained up and unable to run. He should _definitely_ have been at least a little mentally affected.
What we got instead was a story that was almost no different in tone from Colors and Lost World, where (especially in Colors) the stakes were _much_ lower and the fight was over much sooner. Nobody acted any differently than before (at least in a way that makes sense for the situation), and the entire game was filled with jokes and underplayed emotions. It didn't feel like 6 months had passed in the slightest. Tails was surprised by sandy Green Hill, almost nobody knew Infinite's name, and nobody even had any sort of suspicion that the villains they were fighting were illusions. Based on everyone's behavior, it felt like the 'war' had only been going on for maybe two weeks at most.
It's partially due to SEGA's mandates regarding characterization, but also just the fact that Pontac and Graff seem to be unable to write a Sonic game that takes itself seriously, that really hindered the story here. If we're talking about Sonic games with darker stories, there are so many that would be way above Forces on the list, but if we're talking about Sonic games with darker stories on a conceptual level it'd be way higher up. Heck, I'd say Adventure 1, Secret Rings, and Unleashed are already way darker in their execution than Forces, despite technically having much lighter concepts. If we'd had Forces' concept with the tonal writing of SA2 we'd have had a much different game.
Honestly, I think the best way to describe Forces is to simply call it a collection of missed opportunities. Fans wanted a more serious Sonic game, but SEGA (and by extension the writers) interpreted that as 'we want a game with a darker premise', not 'we want a game that actually takes itself seriously'. It's honestly a shame, because Ian Flynn, who also wrote Frontiers, wrote a _very_ dark storyline in the IDW comics with the Metal Virus arc, and that took itself plenty serious while still having at least a few light-hearted moments. This shows that even with SEGA's current mandates, a dark storyline is very much possible in the games (which the IDW comics are canon to, given Sonic's mention of Tangle in Frontiers). I myself haven't played Frontiers yet (currently waiting to get paid so I can afford both it and a ps4 since the only console I have is a wii and the computer is so old that it can't even handle Steam's homepage) and I'm trying to avoid spoilers as much as possible, so I don't know exactly how dark Frontiers gets, but from what my friends in a Discord server have said, it's a much better story than the last few games have been. I'm hopeful now, since the current writer actually knows who Sonic is and why people like him (unlike the previous writers, who literally had to look stuff up on wikipedia to get a feel for the series).
Welp, this comment kinda got away from me, but this is pretty much my thoughts for why Forces failed in the story department.
That’s unfortunate
Could you contrast “taking itself seriously” and “having a darker premise?” Those seem interchangeable.
@@skeetermania3202 I'll try my best to explain the difference.
A darker premise is just simply how dark a story is on a conceptual level. How dark are the ideas used, how dark is the summary, etc. (Sonic being assumed dead for 6 months, Eggman taking over the world, a lot of people supposedly dying, many cities being completely destroyed, etc. are all story bits that were used in Forces. Those are all pretty dark)
Whether a story takes itself seriously is in the execution. How much weight do the stakes have, how are the characters affected by the situation they're in, how much does the story focus on the emotional beats, etc.
The mistake that Forces made was taking a dark premise and using dark ideas, and then not doing those ideas justice.
Sonic was captured and held in a small cell for 6 months? You'd expect him to at the very least be a bit jittery and not as happy-go-lucky as he usually is, but no, he's as chipper as ever, to the point that it makes him seem like he doesn't even care that the world is at war.
Everyone thought Sonic was dead for 6 months? You'd expect them to jump for joy, cry happy tears, or have _some_ kind of extremely excited reaction upon learning he's alive, but the most we get is a 'that's excellent' from Silver and a half-hug from Tails.
Amy says that 80% of their forces have been wiped out during Operation Big Wave, but that's all we ever hear from it. We never see the impact that such a catastrophic loss would have on both the soldiers' loved ones and the army itself.
Speaking of Operation Big Wave, no self-respecting commander would send their troops out with a strategy they thought up 'in about a minute and a half'. Especially when the mission is to _invade the capital city of the empire they're trying to overthrow,_ that's just _asking_ to get absolutely decimated.
I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
There's also the fact that we never really get a sense of scale. There are a total of about 5 visually different locations in the game, and all of the levels take place in those locations. This wouldn't even be _too_ big of a fault if we didn't know that Sonic Team has literally made a game that does the 'the whole globe is involved and we need to travel the whole globe' bit better, that game being Unleashed. In Unleashed we only had to travel to all the different continents to find each of the Gaia Temples, we didn't even need to free individual cities and regions, and yet that game has a _much_ larger sense of scale than Forces does.
In a nutshell, to answer your question of what the difference is, a dark concept is easy to make by simply using a bunch of dark ideas in your story. To make the story take itself seriously you need to do those concepts justice. There are games with lighter concepts than Forces that still feel a lot darker because they make sure to do their darker moments justice. A couple examples of games like that would be SA1, SA2, Secret Rings, Unleashed, Black Knight, and I'm sure there are others that I missed. SA2 and Black Knight especially make sure to balance the lighthearted moments with doing the darker moments proper justice. Nobody jokes about Shadow's death or Gerald's execution in SA2. Sonic is well aware that he's not the hero in Black Knight, and yet he pushes on anyway, still helping anyone who he thinks needs it. He even gives an honestly kinda existential life lesson at the end of Black Knight, and it doesn't feel forced in the slightest.
Compare that to Forces, where we have Sonic jokingly asking the person who he just saved his friend's _life_ from what his favorite color is.
Sonic may not be the most socially adept person, but he can read a room. Forces just made him a jackass for no real reason.
My god you arevtyping too long
@@rinateramal2204 this comment is 10 months old and I was giving my thoughts on what was discussed in the video. If you think my comment is too long, it's not hard to simply scroll past it without reading.
the fact that so many of my fav sonic tubers i'd grown up with stopped after this game i think is what made me the most sad, a lot of the friends i made dropped the series too..heck i even left for a bit & got into anime. cuz we all just remember being soooo hyped and then ._.
the dialog, the bad lighting, cartoony character models, odd songs (yet still catchy & pretty good ig), boring level design, plot,, almost everything tbh
The amusing (and sad) thing is that the guys behind the Reimagined mod show more care and love to Forces than the actual devs did.
Sega's Fault. ST had to make this in one year.
I just can't believe they only spent 1 year in development.
@@stormfall1130
The sad part is that considering how the game turned out as a whole, it’s even a miracle how it could’ve been worse. They could do this in one year maybe, but then you got the corporate meddling and such.
HE2 was important as Sonic wouldn’t be the only game to use it and it’s a good idea to upgrade it for the future consoles and upgraded PC hardware. So you can’t exactly blame ST too much with the situation they were in.
you can't blame Sonic Team for Sega's faults. they were forced to release Forces in 2017 (just like they were forced to rush 06, Colors, Heroes,...). and Ryse of Lyric was not just rushed, but forced to be remade for Wii U instead of X360. so yeah, ST are really trying to make Sonic great
One of my personal least favorite games period.
What 06 was to functionality, Forces is to creativity and core design. The game plays itself for half of its actual playtime and for the little amount that you do have control over, it's either basic quick step/rail switching segments or basic 2d segments and it basically has to be like this because the physics and controls are just terrible otherwise. Boost to win has never been true until this game. The inclusion of Classic Sonic was super shoe horned in. It does almost nothing interesting with its locations and level design with the only aesthetic highlight being Metropolis. The way the rogues gallery was used borders on false advertising with most of them not having any real impact on the story or even gameplay. Making an avatar is fun by itself...but that's not really anything special compared to other games with character creators. The game is easy to play through which is why I think people give this game slack, calling it "average" but that's not a good thing. It's not average it's just not actively frustrating.
This game just feels empty in so many ways and that's the worst thing a game can be to me.
Now that J has shed light on how Rise of Lyric hurt SEGA financially, the failure of Forces is a different kind of tragedy from 06.
"It's just not actively frustrating"
I get more entertainment value out of those games than boring ones. I learned a year ago from an experienced game designer that no one wants to make a bad game, which is true but games that hold practically nothing of substance in the gameplay give me the feeling the devs were just achieving the bare minimum at most. I'm sure Sonic Team worked hard on the project, especially after hearing the game only had one year of development with the other three dedicated to the improved engine, but I just don't feel anything other than the technicals that exudes passion or imagination. Not the worst I played but definitely the most uninspired.
I will say I am looking forward to Sonic Frontiers. Judging from the footage, I'm expecting a game that I probably will come out saying "it's good but not great" and if it can meet that, it's enough to rejuvenate my interest in Sonic's recent mainline output.
I've always considered Forces the polar opposite of 06. Everything 06 does wrong Forces does right, but because "06 bad" everything 06 did right Forces does horribly wrong.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 I expect a game, I get disappointed.
All great point well said too. 🧐
My biggest complaint about forces wasnt about the level design or art or stuff like that, it was that they should've let us decide what part of the world to start taking eggman down in and go from there. The hub world is literally a map of the earth and they wasted it
Also the rest of the game a so many issues I just thought of this one
I find it commendable that it only took one person to define an entire decade and everyone else just went with it
The 2010s era can be also known as the self-deprecation era, an era where the people running Sonic had mocked themselves over and over again because the series was such in a depressing and horrible state of affairs. They even had Arin Hanson, who didn’t like Sonic become their ambassador.
Sonic Team really spent 3 years developing a brand new engine for Forces and spent only one year of actual development on the game itself.
You can’t make this stuff up.
.
I thought that was called the meta era.
@@thevioletbee5879 Might as well rename the _"Meta Era"_ to _"Shitshow"_
It started decently at first. Then came a big falloff.
Arin doesn't even hate Sonic. He exaggerates his anger for comedy
The still images of Sonic failing to land a hit on Merlina is somehow better than the fully animated scene of Sonic getting beaten up by his fake enemies
Just because Sonic hit several women, forgot their dates and left them in danger (only when she deserved it like Fiona Fox in the comics) doesn’t mean he is a bad guy (I mean, these are terrible things to do to people, but when Sonic does it, at least he can find a way to get away with it without looking like a monster) when he has so many good qualities like wanting to protect his people even when the world is at the most danger.
You see him get injured there too(that sounds like a weird thing to praise IK), there's impact there. Also a twist villain that's just a young girl who's lost in her ideals for the world in 10 million times more impactful then simpleton clones for fanservice
@@kieranstark7213Yeah he does merely what he thinks is the right thing to do, which is mainly to see those around him smile.
Yes, but at the end of the day, there are also times when his friends would make it impossible for him to force them to smile. Like, take for instance, in the infamous Rise of Lyric after Knuckles wrongfully accused him of “locking us in”, referring to Tails and Amy as if he were some girl-crazy ego douche with hero complex.
Its even worse when in Sonic Frontiers, Sonic gets thrown into a mountain by a Titan yet STILL gets up like a badass…
While here, he’s “dead” after getting a 2 minute ass kicking
At long last we reach the end of this retrospective, ive watched along with this series since day one and it's grown along side me. I'm excited to see what you do next, maybe a Mario 3d platformer retrospective series after frontiers and a well deserved break
Sonic Forces released right on my birthday so when I woke up to see a shiny new sonic game on my bedside table I at first thought "WOW THIS IS THE BEST BIRTHDAY GIFT EVER" so I pop it into my switch and... even 8-year old me thought the game was shit
If I had played Secret Rings as a kid, I have no doubt that I would have had that same experience lol
@@yrmmishere I've actually never played secret rings, probably because I'm one of the few people on the planet to not own a device called the "Wii. Despite that my Grandma had one and I played a lot of Wii sports on it.
@yrmmishere92601 difference is, Secret rings has redeeming qualities of it (Music, Story, Setting) while forces had none of that lmao, Secret Rings is a way better game than forces
I’ve waited years for this video
Didn't we all?
Honestly
doubt it ngl
I think you mean generatoons
@@21Handguns this retrospective started 2 years ago so if you have been here from the start then you would have been waiting years for this video.
I absolutely loved the Create a Character and it feels like they put a lot of effort into making that fun, but were afraid to expand it to where it deserves to be spending more time with both Sonics that don't use the new mechanics
I can't believe the retrospective is finally done (kinda). I've been following this retrospective, and channel since late 2020. Your videos were really fun and informative to watch during my senior year of highschool. Congrats, J!
Ok over a week later and I finally got around to watching this. And .... yeah. What else can be said. You hit the nail on the head. Concept vs execution. There were some good ideas here and i'm sure in enough time we'll look back and just be sad it wasn't better. Like how I am with 06 now. It wasn't a good game it never will be. But if someone likes it good for them. Glad they got some enjoyment out of it. I just wish all these games had lived up to the potential they could have had. Now to watch your frontiers vid.
Gotta love Infinite, the dude has the power to create illusions of anything to fight against Sonic and his choices for digital minions are: a robot that Eggman probably could make an army of himself through spear parts, the weakest version of Chaos that potentially can’t evolve, the bastard child of Bowser and Momotaros, and a copy of somebody that has communication with the resistance that could be a double spy for him but the thought of that never even crosses his mind. He constantly just leaves when he has the advantage over situations, and he just seems like a hollow caricature of a much better written character
His backstory is *weak* sauce as well
The only thing cool about him is his voice, but then I could listen to Liam O'Brien read the dictionary, so...
Careful. I wouldn’t use the word ‘weak’ around Infinite.
Infinite: (Breaks through door) Did someone say…Weak!? Ahhhhhh!
Ah shit, here we go again.
@@ToaArcan To me he was decent mostly, but there were some times where he sounded bored I guess(which is the voice directions fault). He's also just given really forced edgy villain dialogue
@@sleepylmguy9968 I put weak in bold for that exact reason actually lol
Um his backstory is fine, just wish his squad factored into it too 😅
i think the biggest thing for me was that this game released a week or so after super mario odyssey, probably the 2nd biggest game to release that year. i hate being a console war nerd but considering both games were in development for around the same time (4-5 years) it feels like night and day seeing mario thrive while watching sonic fumble
Honestly it’s not necessarily console wars since Sonics on pretty much everything and Mario’s on Nintendo, which falls under the category of pretty much everything. I hope frontiers can get Sonic back up to Mario’s level of performance again.
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 Because it was supposed to be centered around exploration instead of platforming, which could be found in sub-areas and the 2D segments. I feel like Odyssey is probably the best Mario game I’ve played, while it is lacking in some aspects (WHERE THE FRICK IS ISLE DELFINO DLC), nothing is truly perfect.
@@WarioTimeWarioTimeWarioTime exploration boiled down to looking over the edge for one of 878 moons? No thanks, after the campaign Odyssey seemed repetitive to me.
@@jaretco6423 If anything I'd say Forces was better since the level of quality product was easily identifiable to the public. Then again I was disappointed by both BotW and Odyssey. Despite them obviously having the Nintendo budget and polish. At least Forces stuck with its mediocre ideas. Odyssey randomly has a grim fantasy dragon fight that's completely unrelated to the story.
You’re right. Even though I bought sonic forces first for I am a huge fan of sonic and Mario second even though I didn’t buy Mario odyssey, Forces is a huge letdown and gotten old so fast for they weren’t even trying. Even though Mario odyssey is the same thing like rescuing the annoying damsel in distress, but they did something new.
Just to address the Infinite thing, I think what's actually going on with him is that he might be a cyborg or in some way augmented by Eggman's tech. This would rectify the discrepancy, because then he could have been a normal Jackal first, but still be built by Eggman afterwards.
It's been fun watching these series of videos. I like that you are super fair with these games and avoid bashing the devs, cause a lot of the time, there are internal conflicts in the company that disrupts the development process.
Forces, to me at least, always felt like a conglomeration of ideas coming out severely undercooked in the end. Sole parts were alright to me, music in Sonic games is always at least fun, but that’s that. Congrats on J for getting back to where this retrospective started, to say we’ve all been waiting on this video for a while is an understatement…
Eh, I'm going to be the odd man out and say that, barring Fist Bump, Forces' soundtrack sucked by virtue of being forgettable at best and Classic Sonic at worst.
@@smashmaster521 Shadow's tracks are also pretty good but those are all remixes from games with much better osts soo...
@@evdestroy5304 Don't forget the Zavok boss theme and the metal sonic boss theme being remixes from their respect games too.
In all honesty, regardless on what your thoughts are on Sonic Forces I'm glad this game exists cause if it didn't, he probably wouldn't have had the inspiration to make the retrospective in the first place, which has led your successful channel to where it is today. The journey has been long but very entertaining non the less and I hope you'll continue to enjoy reviewing video games.
Also, Whisper the Wolf came to be because of this game with includes other characters like Mimic too.
So, I’m glad this game exists too. I even enjoyed playing despite wishing it was better than what we got.
@@viruschris3160 and, it turning out the way it did probably inspired Sega to start trying once again with Sonic Forntiers.
@@paperluigi6132 yeah
Yep
Besides. It allowed the fandom to value some sonic games like 06, storybooks series. With this I don't mean that they are good games, but man, the development that the characters had, especially Sonic in Black Knight...
I got into Sonic in 2017 because Mania blew me away as a game, but it was actually the baffling mediocrity of Forces that kept me hooked to the fandom. Thank you for reminding me of how utterly embarrassing Sonic Force's existence was, not just compared to its competitors and sister game that year, but also just for the entire franchise - that perspective on the wait wasn't one I had before. It made me remember why I love to hate it so much.
I grew up with Sonic, still fondly remember playing the first game at a friend's house as a placeholder until Christmas when he was getting an SNES, but never really followed it. I've been watching a lot of video essays over the last year or so to see what I missed out on and have to say it's definitely been incredibly interesting, with the videos on this channel being among the best. Really curious what the verdict is going to be on Frontiers as I noticed the previews have been rather lukewarm but a major part of me wants it to turn out good and make me more than a casual observer of the series.
Shadow: It all start with This, The game that started This entire retrospective.
Sonic: That Sonic Forces!
A game containing the ultimate disappointment. I have no time to chat with you, Farewell
you getting to the end of this Just as frontiers is about to drop is honestly impressive its been a great retrospective bro
Frontiers is surprisingly good too.
gotta give this guy props for subtitling the entire vid. great work 👍
Also fun fact: in the infinite snake bossfight. When you need to homing attack the clones , just boost to the side and you might get a seizure inducing effect as an award
Forces: "You could not live with my own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me."
You could say sonic really forced it.
25:46
“i didnt feel like animating this, heres some text on a black background. the game comes out tomorrow.”
I'm just saying, while watching this video I was confused when I saw Infinite. Besides from his cool theme and design, he was such an unmemorable character that I genuinely forgot he was in this game. And that's saying something since this is his debut game and he is has a major role as the secondary antagonist in this game.
The saddest part was that infinite was kind of a cool villain until episode shadow came out.
"IM NOT WEAK!!!"
He was never cool, he was always pathetic, boring and empty.
This is just a game where it feels like every descion in it was made by corporate pressure rather than any genuine passion. Nothing about it comes together into anything noteworthy or substantial, just a big nothing.
What do you expect? This is the same company that treated BigRedButton like trash, released '06, Colors Ultimate and Rise of Lyric when they weren't even finished, flanderized characters, gave a _"NO"_ to a Mania sequel, let Omens slide (even though the fangame is monetized to hell and is made by POS devs) and screwed over the devs of Origins by giving them little time. And of course, they only care about constant nostalgia pandering.
SEGA never learns their lesson, never, and when they do, they overcorrect it.
Always enjoy hearing your in-depth thoughts. Excited to hear your analysis of Sonic Frontiers!
This is such a good video, It's been worth all of the wait, all of the build up and it's just so satisfying to watch
I literally just beat this last night and you're right about everything. I was bored almost the whole time. If I didn't livestreamed it, I would have never finished it. I remember being excited for this game. Sad huge letdown
I find it hilarious that the mobile game that released alongside forces (sonic forces speed battle) was a lot more liked than a full fledged console game.
Maybe you could review the sonic mobile games in the future
I think what I’ve seen as one of the largest missed opportunities is that Classic Sonic spent the entirety of the game with Tails. How cool would it be for the Classic Sonic levels to have Classic Sonic with Modern Tails similar to Sonic 2?
Sonic Forces hurt the franchise so hard that SEGA had to stop and think before making frontiers.
I know a lot of people didn't like this game but I genuinely think the avatar/OC character mechanic has a lot of potential in Sonic games and could be a great addition to the series going forward if executed well. Over the years, many fans have engaged with the franchise by imagining what their own characters would look like in the Sonic universe, so it seems like a very natural step to allow that creativity into the game and let people create characters to play as. Even though Sonic Forces was divisive, I hope they revisit this mechanic in the future.
See I would agree only if I didn’t knew for a fact the moment the avatar/oc was shown, I knew it be their excuse for why the game was lacking in gameplay. This isn’t to say that avatar/oc automatically means bad stale gameplay but it’s common used in licensed games especially by Bandai. At that time it was becoming a trend and sega new moto was doing what’s popular.
I enjoyed it🤷♀️
I also like the concept but this is called meta era for more reasons than "That guy who did the Sonic stories called it that" so SEGA will prolly just throw even that away in the incinerator.
It's kinda fun to dress up the avatar, but that's where it begins and ends.
Maybe if sega decides to make another sonic RPG they could bring back the avatar/OC character
You know, that makes a lot sense about Infinite, in how he seems more like a creation rather than a person with newly acquired powers. The "data and mechs" lines from his first fight were always odd to me, as was Infinite's lack of interaction with Shadow throughout the main story, but this video makes it clear why all of that was so odd.
Like you said, Episode Shadow was clearly an afterthought, and that Infinite was indeed supposed to be a creation of sorts. The only way any of this could even make a _sliver_ of sense is if he truly was "reborn" from fusing with the Phantom Ruby, which would explain why he talked about his "old self" like that. Perhaps the original perished after the fusion and the one we see throughout the game is an advanced replica, much like the other villain copies from the Phantom Ruby. That might be giving Sonic Forces too much credit, though. It all just seems like a half-baked mess.
To me, Forces story is like 06's, You get the sense that there were multiple earlier versions of the story and they didn't have the time to go back,make it consistent, and fix the huge flaws plot wise. So you wind up with a messy story.Considering the stage concept art and the leaked early version script of Forces(which made way more sense and seemed better than the final product) I think the games vision was meant to bigger than what we got,but the development was rocky.
@@infinitedreamer9359 06 did very good even though it has some bug problem. Mephiles is a unique villain that broke free from the key fragment seal. Forces however, Infinite is sealed into Eggman’s machine which is pathetic.
@@truearea53 Even though 06's story is very messy, and you could call Mephiles a boring one note villan,the one thing they did good job was making him intimidatimg and a threat. And Infinite couldn't even manage that. It also helps that we get to see Mephiles use his abilities in interesting ways too. Like that scene where he summons an image of future Shadow to try and mentally fuck with Shadow(even if it doesn't work)
@@infinitedreamer9359 infinite would of been better, if they didn’t screwed up his characteristics like making him weak as hell. So Mephiles wins hands down.
@@truearea53 Him being weak has nothing to do with it.They just failed at using his powers in creative ways,which is dumb when his powerset is perfect for that. And he's also no intimidating due to his attitude,which for a villain character is bad.
Over the past week or two I've gone through this whole Sonic is Distinctive playlist. Been a wild ride that I'm sad is coming to the end. As a kid I played through Sonic 2 & Sonic3+K for countless hours. Loved the dreamcast era, stopped at Sonic hero's & sonic06 basically until Generations and Mania. I'm genuinely amazed (and really happy I don't have to play though all the E tier games) at the whole lifetime of Sonic the Hedgehog. No real point to this other than I Loved the series and cant wait for more Sonic or Jak content. Keep up the great work!
The problem with mods that enhance specific things like classic/modern sonic controls, is that unfortunately, the game is designed around the fact that they're trash.
That means that you might get a mod that enhances Classic sonic, but it makes him unable to do something that was originally envisioned to be done with a slow, momentumless Sonic during the stage.
It's really infuriating, ngl
Hard to believe it's already been 5 years since then. I feel old. 0_0
God, in 5 years I quit being a sonic fan, found a love for a different genre, and then became a sonic fan once again this year due to all the new (not to mention quality) content we've been receiving compared to these last few years.
Here's to hoping Frontiers ends up the amazing cherry on top to punctuate a great year for Sonic, and here's to more great years to come.
Yeah, I was 11 when Forces came out. I was 9 when it was announced. And now I just turned 16 back in September
Same?? I remember watching the 25th Anniversary livestream when I was 15!!
*reads title*
After a whole retrospective of build-up, this video is already cathartic 👌
As you can imagine from my username; my favorite types of games are those with some form of score attack, speed run, or letter-grade rank system. My favorite 3D Sonic games therefore are Adventure 1/2, Generations, (Project) 06, and the Storybook duology. In spite of this, I find you truly are the only content creator whose views I not only agree with, but understand.
I love my janky Sonic, so I love J's Reviews. Because his reviews don't make a definitive "statement" on the game, but instead tell a story to explain his thoughts on the game, nothing more or less. Thank you J, for being a content creator.
Sonic forces was my first sonic game, and I remember thinking it was pretty fun when it first came out. I replayed it a few months ago, and I thought that the gameplay was servicable, mainly due to not having played older games yet (still haven't, but I'm kinda tempted to). I remember my biggest critisism was the story, since I thought that the player OC idea was kinda stupid, and how you get to be best friends with sonic. After hearing so much about how good the old sonic games were, I am really tempted to try them out for myself.
finally someone brings up the sonic saying how you failed so badly line in such a bad way
It sounds like Roger forgot to clear his threat before speaking. Good God, he sounded coarse during that line.
People argue between 06 and Forces on the worst 3D Sonic game and honestly the biggest difference feels like the player gets to laugh at 06 while Forces laughs at the player.
I believe the biggest problem (Gameplay-wise) with the switch from Generations and Unleashed style to the more Modern games like Forces and Frontiers appears to be the switch from using the Havok Physics engine to Bullet or some other Physics engine. They're still using the Hedgehog Engine for graphics, but the physics has taken a turn since the days of Havok. That will probably be my biggest letdown with Frontiers, but we will wait until the 8th...
I do wish we could play as other sonic characters. I love the black knight game since you could play as different characters and knuckles, blaze and shadow had swords where you had to collect materials to craft them so it had some reason to keep playing.
This game shows of a big problem of the Sonic games, Sonic friends are so useless. They make Sonic seems like a god as he’s the world’s only hope. Silver, Tails, Shadow, and Knuckles have been shown to be able to fight, but they write these characters like they don’t how to fight. This is why I like the IDW comics because it shows his friends being useful, tails actually fights along with Sonic in the comics
That only became a thing in the 2010's starting with Colors.Because Sega was so scared of having any of the Sonic cast as playable after the shit the Dark Age(especially 06) got instead of working to fix their mistakes with multiple playable characters,they decided to shove them to the sidelines in both story and gameplay,which just made the stories worse,since Sonic doesn't work well as character on his own. In the Dark Age,all of the cast were allowed to be useful in the story in some way, even if they weren't playable.The Adventure games being the best examples,
@@infinitedreamer9359 and they hired writers that wrote Saturday morning cartoons. They knew nothing about Sonic.
As someone who loves creating oc's, the character creation feature really is something I appreciated, being able to customize & play as my own characters in a sonic game is definitely a highlight for me when it comes to forces. the rest of the game I pretty much agree with you on though, it feels really unfinished in the story & levels, & infinite's origin is inconsistent.
(28:19)
I assume that the Phantom Ruby that (modern) Eggman found was the one that teleported from Classic Sonic’s timeline/dimension/house/dream/whatever.
However, the thing is is that Classic Sonic shows up months AFTER the Ruby showed up on Eggman’s door.
Y'know, I used to defend Forces for not being nearly as bad as people say since I didn't remember is being that horrid. Though now I realize I don't remember ANYTHING about the game at all, which says enough on it's own, I'd think.
There are some part in modern Sonic's and the avatar's levels start being kinda fun but they then end 5 seconds later, it's baffling
I was honestly turned off instantly with Sonic being reliant on wisps to boost. With Unleashed and Generations showing Sonic being able to boost all by himself, demonstrating how strong he was. Using wisps kinda kills that motivation, plus there was no context for their addition. And I bet we all know about Sonic losing movement options smh.
The wisp themed weapons were cool though, but thats it.
I want to say this, if you have the Super Sonic DLC you can use Super Sonic during the Metal Sonic Boss.
It’s the only boss you can do this in, and It infuriates me to this day.
Another problem is that some cutscenes didn't feel like cutscenes. Some were just talking with no backround animation for the "cutscene"
The 2010s was such an awful time to be a Sonic fan. Forces made me quit caring about the series entirely for the next few years. It was the first time where I looked back and realized how much more the 2000s era had. As the old saying goes: "You never know how good you have it until it's gone." Here's to hoping they make a comeback with Frontiers.
@@jaretco6423 They were, but they couldn't make up for the entire decade. Not to mention Colors and Generations had abysmal writing. Your mileage may vary but personally I care deeply for the Sonic lore and characters, and seeing them be butchered by people who admitted they know nothing about Sonic is heartbreaking.
@@jaretco6423 This of it this way. What's the difference between playing an amazing game from a big shot company and a game with the exact type of gameplay from an indie developer? Branding. The iconic characters make the branding. The characters and lore let you create various style of gameplay that make sense within the same brand go evolve it from getting stale. For example, Riders is a racing series but easily fits within the Sonic franchise because of the art direction, characters, and writing. Freedom Planet is a great series with Classic Sonic gameplay, but the different characters, story and setting, make it not a Sonic game.
They did. We are good now
“That was just a bunch of cheap walk cycles!”
I think 1 Amazing Character Concept came from Sonic Forces : Whisper The Wolf.
I remember hearing her name under a year ago & was intrigued. I saw a a comic review of her early stories.
Since you mentioned Forces mods, have you checked out Sonic Forces Overclocked? It is quite literally a different game (it isn't the same story as Forces, it's a sequel set two months after Forces), but I've heard many very positive things about it and I feel like it could be worth checking out!
That sounds pretty cool
One of the most disappointing games in recent memory. I wanted this to be good and it has so so much potential.
20:00 You are wrong J. I absolutely care about the thematic harmony of multiple playable characters and their distinctive playstyle. It's what make each sonic game so fun and unique to play in the first place. You are not the only one who cares about it.
I think he was being sarcastic with his statement.
@@ryanwilson9555 I dont know. There is nothing sounds sarcastic from that statement. He sounds like "whatever" when he said so.
My main issue with forces was that it felt too fast and too easy. Yeah, sonic's tagline is "gotta go fast" but the game felt like it went TOO fast and i barely got to savor what was happening around me while i shot through stages left and right. The fact that it basically plays itself and that the difficulty isn't too bad aside from terrible mechanics also shows a big problem. I think J said what we were all thinking when he called generations "the best 3d sonic game" and referred to forces as "handling like a prison toilet".
Did you played it on the easiest difficult?
@@alvarochaves1999 Nah, I played it on hard
Possibly a hot take, but I'd honestly consider Sonic Forces to be far worse than Sonic 06. Yes Sonic 06 was flat out broken, but it kinda explains a lot. Had they not been rushed to complete the game, we would've been left with a relatively decent experience, bar some awkward moments that would be there no matter what.
With Forces, you get what you were promised. They had four years to work on this, no compromise, nothing. Because this is the intended retail, or digital experience, that makes Forces far more detestable.
The retrospective has come full circle. Amazing videos as always.
What also doesn't help about forces story is that a couple of plot points were changed when it got translated the story is the same so it's not that big but an example I should mention is that in the Japanese script nobody especially tails thinks sonic was tortured or dead since it was never mentioned
Yeah makes me wonder why the FUCK did they do that if they’re not gonna commit
Pretty sure it was intentional choice on Pontac and Graff's parts. Look at Lost World's writing, Eggman suddenly starts talking about "strangling a zeti" yet he never talks to them again. They basically thought just the fact they bring up torture will suddenly make everyone take the story super seriously, but that's not how any of the this works, you *must* actually back stuff up, if you want us to buy it. If you won't, then don't even bother.
@@sezunemizuhana3870 And that's why I don't believe anything they say and know they actually enjoyed everything they did.
Worst of all, many people still think that Ken Pontac and Warren Graff wrote the story of Forces, when in reality all they did was adapt the original Japanese script to English. Damn, people don't even know that the ones who really wrote the story were Makoto Goya and Eitaro Toyoda.
Having a game that is just dull and plain is the worst type of game .This is why I think sonic forces is the 2nd worst game in the franchise just falling short of sonic boom rise of lyric.Also I'm so annoyed how they treat some characters as a joke like silver.Silver should beat infinite if sonic could.And tails being scared of chaos 0 wtf?
It was a good game
My issue that I remember with this game is how the interesting stuff happens through dialog while you meander through a level doing nothing
26:36 the worst part is, Sonic CD already showed us what a "bad future" of a zone completely taken over by roeggbotmannik would look like. Imagine a style close to Sonic CD bad futures in Forces levels... No one really seems to bring this up.
But no, we got sand.
This vid really does sum up most of my feelings, going through 20 years of sonic, through the highs of unleashed and generations, the absolute expectation of something amazing coming right around the corner, the formula all finally coming together in forces, only to get...
Frontiers has my attention more lately, but I'm still not even sure i'm on the fence, and I was, until very recently anyway, absolutely certain I was done buying main line sonic games, because of just how strongly forces burned me. Even if I do buy it, it'll probably have to be on a sale, and a good one at that. Or used.
Something I've been thinking recently is that at least 06 has a heart and soul to it, and I still find things to enjoy every time I go back to it. Forces is just plain boring. At all times. And I do not go back to it.
I hate sand. It's coarse and
we've come a long way, almost at the end of this retrospective, I've enjoyed every minute of it and it's a bit sad to see it coming to a close. thanks for making these videos, J
Oh my gosh... when you sent that character creator it brought me WAAAY back to memories I didn't know I still had
You unlocked a memory showing that screenshot of the oc creator. Thanks for that.