Despite the test results this hasn't discouraged me from still loving my .40 S&W guns. I like 9mm and .45 ACP and I understand why most people flock to 9mm for many good reasons (cheaper to shoot, less recoil, less wear on the gun, easy to manage, faster follow up shots, and higher capacity magazines). I shoot the .40 well and it is my EDC. In the end it still comes down to shot placement regardless of caliber.
Shot placement also depends on the width of the bullet. Put a dime and a quarter next to each other and you can see that a wider bullet betters the chances of hitting the vitals with shot placement. Recoil aint gonna matter in a self defense shooting as you will be pumped up on adrenaline and it is not something you will even think about.
@@bigsean2473 I saw Paul's video when it came out in 2017 and it validates what I always said. But I mentioned the 9mm in my comments as more of a reference point as to why so many people swear by the 9mm and not actually an admission of capitulation on my end. While the 9mm is a good round, I still believe the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective and damaging to the suspect. Shot placement is still key in slowing down an attack quicker in my view. I could be wrong.
People who think that 45 ACP is hard to handle should spend 10 minutes in the bedroom with my wife after accidentally calling her by her sister's name during sex. Talk about recoil!
The 45 ACP/Auto is bigger than the 10mm... it's 11.43*22mm (45ACP) For perspective 380, 9, 38S, 357M, 9 Makarov are all technically 9mm calibers. The 40, 10 and 44M are all 10mm 32 ACP (7.8mm) 380 ACP (9x17mm) 9mm Luger (9mm)9x19 38 Special (9.1mm) 357Mag (9.1mm) 9mm Makarov (9.2mm) 9x18 .40 S&W (10mm) 10x22mm 10mm Auto (10x25mm) 44 Magnum (10.9mm) .45 ACP (11.43x22mm) 50AE (12.7mm) .500 S&W Magnum (12.7mm)
i know Im randomly asking but does anybody know of a method to get back into an instagram account?? I stupidly forgot my login password. I would love any assistance you can give me.
.45 has always had the most consistent and pleasant recoil for me, across a wide range of gun types. Having said that, I carry and train primarily with 9mm.
For me .40 has much more felt recoil and snap to it. .45 in a 1911 is surprisingly easy and not a hard shooter. It’s been said many times but it’s more of a push than a snap. This is a great video with tons of info!
@grosebud4554 Comparing a .40 S&W out of a 24 oz G23 to a .45 ACP out of a 39 oz 1911 isn't really fair. .40 S&W 180 gr @ 950 fps is a pop gun load out of a 40 oz 1911.
According to the SAAMI specs, both the 9mm and the .40 S&W generate 35,000 psi chamber pressure. The .45 acp generates significantly less at 21,000 psi. Others for the purpose of comparison such as: 25 acp =25,000 32 acp=20,500 357 mag= 35,000 38 special=17,000 380auto=21,500 44 mag=36,000 44 special=15,500 454 casull=65,000 460 S&W=65,000
@@jamesbrinley8453 I paid 599. But I live in commifornia. I held every semi automatic pistol in the store. To me, it felt like it was molded to my hand. Buttery smooth recoil. Accurate out of the box. I have the px4 storm type f. You should at least go to your local shop and put it in your hand.
James Brinley Don’t shoot it simple? Shoot it complicated, like underhanded pinky on trigger sideways while sampling ice cream? I’ll try that next time. Thanks.
Thirded. I'd imagine the larger frame and extended case would help keep it about as controllable. Re: velocity, it looks like Armscor .40 S&W loads are 180 grain, where you would expect to see between 850-1000 fps depending on powder (at least, according to the loading books I have on hand, most 180 gr loads max out around 950 fps). I'd say it's proper ammunition -- the 1300 fps/lighter ammo has about the same muzzle energy. It would be interesting to see recoil impulse differences compared to heavier 200 gr, and the lighter 135/155 grs as well.
Once upon a Time I converted a s&w performance center 40 to 357 sig not as snappy as one would think if it's in a gun designed for it. Bet it's no big deal
Of the 3 calibers in the video I shoot 40 S&W the best. For the longest time I've wanted to make a Beretta 96 look like Barry Burton's from Resident Evil.
I concur... However, I still prefer and carry a .40, But I'm an old, odd Bastard anyway. The .40 I shoot regularly IS a boat anchor and it just lets me know that there is some ass behind it. Again, I said that I'm an odd Bastard an LOVE my Colt Defender .45... I like my .9 in my PCP's Happy shooting!!!
@@UShallFallInTheEnd from one odd bastard to another, I'm reading your mail. Maybe it's a frugal money thing, but I enjoy shooting my 45's more, but am typically 40 for daily carry most of the time
Ditto, I think it has to do with barrel length. I have an HK P90 in .40 I really wanted to love that pistol. But it became a safe queen as the recoil just did not feel right. .45 is smooth as is 9mm. But the .40 was just odd so I ended up selling it.
Truly enlightening. This provides further insight and validation to what some people claim as the greater inconsistency of the 40 S&W despite being a lower caliber than the 45 ACP. And by using all glocks, you have eliminated the confounding factor of steel vs polymer. I have learned a great deal from this one video alone. Will definitely explore your other videos. Keep up the fine work!!
Great information. Love all 3 and shoot all 3. I like shooting 9mm and 45s mostly but it really depends on the gun size and weight. I shoot mainly 1911s in 45ACP, and my polymers(including my EDC) are 9mm. But my Cz TS in 40S&W is an absolute joy to shoot.
I've just been shooting 40, and only 40 so long. I'm just used to it. The recoil just feels "regular" to me. Imo the trigger, and reset plays more of a factor in how well I can control, and how fast I can get hits.
the problem with that would be frame size and weights of the revolvers would not make it an equal comparison, but i agree that it would still be nice to know. would like to see comparisons between K and N frames and the various barrel lengths too
The problem is with different pistols recoil changes hugely. A pistol with a low bore axis may be much more controllable and naturally weight changes recoil as well. How well you can grip the pistol has significant impact as well. The tests are interesting but it is so hard to eliminate the variables.
@@svaj1000 I have a Sig. .40. It's a beautiful looking gun but it's a little heavier than my .40 H&K. My Glock .45 is a lighter gun than the Sig .40. Go figure.
@@govanbuttar9440 You're so right; I can't understand how many people can't stand the "violent" recoil of the .40 S&W, but run out to buy a 10mm for their carry gun. ?!?!?
For 16 years, I competed with a WW1 vintage 1911 A1 that I bought in a Jacksonville Florida gunshop in 1972. I disassembled it and kept it in my locker for three years of service aboard a DDG out of Mayport. After my discharge, I began competing with a veterans group at Penn State. In 1981 I began carrying it as a backup gun while patrolling a high crime district in a major east coast city. Best gun I ever owned.
I got "stuck" on a .40 Springfield XD full size on my way for the first time to an indoor shooting with my more experienced cousin. Had to stop at a gun store to buy me a gun before going to the range and didn't want to waste time. There were no 9mm that day, so I settled for a .40 and never regretted it. A few years later I went to a shot show and fired various types of Glocks in all the popular calibers. None came close to recoil management like my XD, not even the 9mm. I was kind of surprised because I heard so much about Glock perfection but didn't experience it that day. My cousin even said there was little difference between my .40 and his 9mm. I later got a Shield in .40 and that one is definitely a kicker, but I did all sorts of things to it to mitigate recoil and muzzle rise.
Excellent video. I finally understand why my 40 S&W is my least favorite handgun to shoot (vs. my .380, many 9mm's & 45 ACP). I had just thought it was me. Thanks.
For me, felt recoil goes 9mm < .45 ACP < .40 S&W, and the .45 ACP in a 1911--not a revolver--is a heavier push than 9mm, but it's smooth. I haven't tried it in a polymer-framed gun. The .40 S&W feels sharper. Do the data say anything about the duration of the impulse? I'd guess that the .40 S&W is more of a spike than the others.
Good point. I recommend to anyone with the means to just go to a range where you can either rent or borrow guns to try out. Compare for yourself and see what you think because it is only your opinion that really matters. That said, for everyone living in such a place where that isn't an option these videos are SOOOO helpful. I'm in that first group and yet I still appreciate all these videos giving me a good start in my own research. I would never recommend a buying decision before actually trying things out on yourself first. It's like buying shoes online. I did it once but generally I want to go walk around in them in the store and compare. You should always do some hands on of your own, then make up your mind. Peoples opinions will always be all over the place.
@@montebarnes3021 have glocks in all calibers even the baby sub compact in 40 (the 27) and i can say if u can manage recoil on that little kick asser then anything else is a breeze
I actually strongly suspect there is a direct co-relation between the velocity and the duration of the recoil impulse. Then again it also seems as likely, if not more, that it is more related to the chamber pressure. Hmmmm, probably both.
I love how you got so scientific on this cause I shoot multiple calibers myself but when I try to explain to people the difference in muzzle rise they don't understand. Thank you keep up the great work
That's a good data capture. You can definitely see how the human factor comes into firing a pistol. Lately I've been firing two pistols more often, both mid sized polymer framed guns in 9mm and .40 s/w. The .40 definitely seemed wilder to shoot especially after I had fired the 9mm. So what I do more often now is fire my .40 first, so I don't get used to the .9mm first and it 'seems' to make the .40 not a big deal. Sometimes I just fire the .40 only. After doing that, the 9mm feels like a very low powered pistol.
Thanks to you, Very much for spending the money & taking your time to visually & digitally show the shooting enthusiasts exactly where "Felt Recoil" comes from. I can now forever forward show this video to interested novice shooters in order to help with their understanding of the original rules of combat handgunnery. #1) Train hard bit forsaking the known principles of marksmanship. #2) Choose wisely the most powerful pistol with which you can shoot with reliable control. #3) Use these skills along with situational awareness to move swiftly as possible to collect your rifle ! End of lesson. Thanks a bunch for this video !!!
@@gk5891 The 7,65 mm is the measrurement of the lands in the barrel. The inch diameter of the bullet is .3125 so 7.94mm. Actually you can say 32 ACP is 8mm!
This showed showed recoil between calibers on glocks. A good point to mention is that a heavier gun would also help manage recoil better. A metal and heavy 1911 chambered in 45 will still have more recoil than the same chambered in 9mm. However the recoil of a 9mm polymer will likely be harder to manage than a heavy metal 1911 that is chambered in 45. Also a longer barreled gun would help recoil. All this to say that caliber is not the only factor in the amount of recoil experienced.
I didnt realize how wild the .40 S&W round is compared to 9mm and the .45 acp. Great technical/ scientific approach in your video and thank you for sharing!
It's all about trade off. .40 S&W is superior in ballistics to both the 9mm and .45ACP as far as energy delivered into the target. If you want more power, you're gonna have to deal with more energy/recoil.
It depends on the INDIVIDUAL LOAD. I’ve used 115-grain, 1500 fps 9x19mm Parabellum in the NATO load that delivers more kinetic energy than a 155-grain STANDARD pressure .40 S&W when both are discharged from a 5-inch barrel.
I have a few handguns in different calibers. .22 through .44. The hardest one to handle is not the most powerful. It is a pocket size 9 mm. It is so light full power loads create quite a recoil, it really jumps in your hand and is the handgun most likely to give you a slide cut if you're not careful.
Is totally subjective to the ability of the person handling the firearm. If you've got someone who is small or frail, the 9mm is going to be the way to go, but it certainly isn't the best caliber in terms of handgun cartridges. With all things being equal, if the bullets weighed the same, if they flew it the same velocity, the 40 or the 45 would simply have more Advantage because it's going to cut a bigger hole. Whether it expands or not. 9 mm starts at .355, and can expand to 6 or slightly more. 40 caliber starts at 40, and doubles to 80, and the 45, starts at 45 and can double to almost 90. Since handgun cartridges can't get to that magic 2000 foot per second to where the stretch cavity is permanent via hydrostatic displacement, and if that bullet does not hit a part of the nervous system, the only thing that's causing the stoppage can be through blood loss. Larger diameter holes cause more blood loss. So shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately.
Thanks so much for your channel I'm glad that you are interested in teaching us not just blowing things up. I'd love to see you and Paul Harrell do a video together 😁
One day at the range I had the opportunity to shoot a Kel-Tec P-9 (9mm) and a P-40 (.40 S&W) back to back. They're the same gun other than the breech face, barrel and magazine; both weighing in at 12 ounces empty. I was surprised that the felt recoil of the 9mm insignificantly lighter than the .40. I also had the opportunity to shoot an STI Edge 2011 double stack pistol in .40. The torque and wobble of the .40 was really noticeable even in a heavy, mostly steel (steel slide and frame with a polymer grip, 20 round capacity) firearm. The guy giving instruction recommended rotating the STI about 25°-30° clockwise when shooting with the weak hand do it would rotate to vertical in recoil. That actually worked very well for all of the people that tried it.
Good video, interesting data. From what I’ve learned the Glock 17 was designed for the 9mm round. The Glock 21 was designed for the 45ACP but for the 40S&W Glock basically just used a Glock 17 and didn’t design a firearm for the caliber. Could that also factor into the 40S&W torquing action? The caliber being a bit too much for the firearm and bending the polymer frame?
As well, the recoil spring on the glock 22 is the same as the glock 17, the recoils spring for the glock 17 is a 17lbs spring, the put the same one on the glock 22, the glock 21 has a longer recoil spring ( only a little bit larger but surely longer ). I putted a 24 lbs recoil srping on my G22 and the recoil feel even better than shooting a G17. M&P series 2.0 were made for the .40 caliber in mind, that is why they come with a metal skeleton inside of the polimer frame, making it more resistant to twisting and robust.
a little simplistic. the g22 has a heavier slide, and extra frame pin, and bigger locking block. When you use a heavier spring, the return motion of slide becomes heavier. The barrel.hood is also slanted to minimize slide pressure.
The frame of most 9mm and 40 cal are the same, some only need a recoil spring and some use the same one for both. AF2011-A1 is an amazing double barrel 45ACP that holds a double clip of 10each(20rd Total) sending 2x 45 Autos their way
GOOD JOB 👍🏾Your video showed the degree of muzzel rise and that was all I needed to determine which cailber is best for getting back on target after a shot; the 9mm is best.
I couldn't "Feel" the difference between my .40s and my Glock .45. I thought they were about the same. But a 10 degree difference is pretty significant.
After decades of firearm ownership I'm getting my first .40 "HK USP", if anything can tame the recoil impulse it should be that pistol. It would be interesting to see such a comparison between several popular .40 caliber offerings and even the other calibers as well. Personally, my favorites are the lighter recoiling pistols like the FN 5.7 & .22TCM9R, they literally are a blast to shoot with virtually zero recoil.
You might get different results with different guns, responding differently to each round, including barrel harmonics. You might potentially find guns that behave much better with .40 S&W than other guns (and likewise for other calibers). Add to that the human element in a combination with each gun (ergonomics and tolerance for different kinds of recoil), and you have a research project for years to come :). Anecdotal personal example: I don't like Glock 17 - the recoil feels mushy and twisty to me. Perhaps I should try a shorter barrel. Or try different ammo? I do, however, like Glock 22 a lot - its recoil feels crisp and precise to me. I can shoot it better that G17. I also like Glock 21, despite increased barrel rise. I can also shoot it better than G17. I don't like full size 1911 (let the stoning commence). Its recoil also feels like someone was moving the tip of my barrel up and to the side. However, I only shot the slow 230 gr in the 1911. My perception might be quite different with the faster 180 gr. Then add shorter commander-style barrels... you see where this is going.
@@mountainhobo it shows that between 9 and 40 there is no difference if you train with them. he was even better with the 40 on somethings. but looking at your comment i think i sent it by mistake to you.
I haven’t checked but suspect that the inconsistency of the 40 is because it is is a higher pressure cartridge than either the 9 or the 45. My experience is mostly with revolvers and I know that I get less perceived recoil with my Ruger 45 Colt (.452 diameter) loaded to the same velocity for a 250 gr. bullet as a 44 magnum (.429 diameter) with a 250 gr. bullet. That is because it takes less pressure for the 45 Colt than the 44 magnum to do the same work because the surface area of the back of the 45 bullet is larger. Read John Linebaugh’s writings for more on this. It would be interesting to do your experiment using loads with the same as close as possible weight and velocity loads.
I’d like to see the G20 and G31 added to those results to compare all five. Definitely one of the best test I’ve seen because it’s as scientific as possible without any bias. Can’t wait for another.
Before we get started, the ransom rest does not allow the firearm to rotate at the same fulcrum point that it rotates in the hand. A fire arm rotates at the top of the hand which is where the axis is created. And then transfers that rotation to the wrist. The Ransom rest is actually has a fixed fulcrum Point underneath the grip. The only Advantage it has is that it will be consistent. But you cannot use the differential and apply it to the hand because the hand doesn't exemplify the same physics as the ransom rest. As an example, the Arsenal arms First Strike 9 mm has a bore axis that is so close to the hand that The Recoil impulse in the hottest night millimeters is still around a 10 degree movement. Which is basically exemplified by the cycling of the slide and with a slide comes back home it actually pushes the bore right back down on target. It has always been my contention that the majority of felt recoil is the cycling of the slide which in some Firearms is actually felt more in a 9 mm then in some 45s I have shot. And that's frequently because of the bore axis and it's height above the fulcrum point between the thumb and forefinger. I have seen these tests done before with Ransom rest. Resetting the firearm by using the barrel or slide is not a problem. My question is, how much math do you have to use to try and extrapolate the difference between the fulcrum point of the ransom rest and putting the fulcrum point where the firearm is when in the hand? Would it be out of hand to ask Ransom rest to see if they can alter the rest to a proper fulcrum point? You may find that the true difference between 9 mm and 40 Smith is less then what is exemplified here as well as with 45. I would have also like to see 357 Sig which at least presents a 9 mm bullet and is capable of propelling it at a speed which is closer to 357 Magnum which is the Benchmark for first shot fight Stoppers. The 124 / 125 grain hollow point at approximately 1450 feet per second is The Benchmark for first shot stops. There is a slight advantage to a revolver bullet that doesn't have a jacket that runs all the way down to the Leading Edge of the projectile. Apparently the animal that you use for the 40 Smith test is inconsistent either in case capacity or in powder charge. But if given the choice I will take a 40 Smith over the 9 mm every single time. It produces a permanent wound cavity in ballistic gel that exceeds the best 9 mm by 20% or better with each shot. And that's assuming I 155 to 165 grain Speer Gold Dot or Winchester PDX round running at about 1250 feet per second. As for the torque imparted on a polymer frame handgun is yet another reason why I don't particularly care for plastic guns. When I first moved into a carry gun in semi-auto. I picked up a CZ variant 40 Smith with a steel frame that has a nice trigger. I really smooth double action trigger even though I don't carry it double action, I carry cocked and locked, and it shoots quite nicely. And if you carry a firearm on a regular basis a little extra weight is not an issue. Did you take into account the weight difference between the slides of the three firearms. I believe that the slide on the 40 and 9 mm should be the same? Which is not proper engineering. And the slide of the 45 should be heavier. I believe it's also logger? So you're showing about 50% difference in Recoil because the fulcrum Point has changed when you handle the firearm. At least as far as the 45 at 9 mm are concerned but only about a 30% difference in the 40 Smith. I believe that that maybe accountable to the slide weight of the 40 Smith being the same as that for the 9 mm. But I would have to see those weights. when brick National built the Browning hi-power in 40 Smith they used a slide that was 2 and 1/4 ounces heavier than for the 9 millimeter. The reason being is that although 40 Smith is generally loaded about 15% below it's MAX Pressure. It is still possible to achieve that 15% higher pressures without causing a problem in the firearm provided it's engineered properly. I don't believe Glock ever actually engineered the firearm to fire 40 Smith. All they did was change the barrel and possibly The Recoil spring and expected a firearm that was specifically designed for 9 mm to fire a beefier cartridge and then wine and crime that it was causing damage to their firearms.
.40 cal is terrible with lots of dim light muzzle flash, recoil and gun wear in short barrel carry autos. I carry a Shield 9 most of the time, but also have a Shield 45 that is easy to shoot even with 230 HSTs.
Really cool data man! I analyze industrial vibration/performance data in my line of work, so this is really interesting to me. I definitely think the ransom rest is a good medium to use for comparison, but it seems it doesn’t address the rearward drive that the .45acp has as opposed to the snappy nature of the smaller calibers. Really cool to see the torque plotted out there though. That really tells the tale that most people have never seen. Keep this series going man!
Competitive shooters know this for the most part but you should hold every pistol the same. You should hold it with 100 percent of your strength no matter what caliber. Well if you want to shoot fast and recover on target faster. Thats why when people say I hold it harder cause it kicks more I dont agree. You should be doing it no matter what cause that is your recoil control and recovery on target.
Exactly. I don't know about all this death grip stuff some teach. I agree on a very firm and tight grip that is just shy of where you would begin shaking. Maybe 85-90% of that. Grip each gun the same way for consistency AND for habit building. The exceptions would be revolver vs auto and guns so small you can't hold them that way. Of course he did say "unconsciously" gripping tighter. I agree with him that many people do sort of get more serious about it when they perceive more recoil is inbound. They will relax more with a lighter load or caliber and tend to grip a bit softer. I think this is mostly unintentional, but also should be something they become conscious of. Then train with consistency to just do it right habitually regardless of what they are shooting.
In my opinion the grain has more to due with the ability to control recoil. Everyone will have an opinion. I produce better shot placement with 155 grn vs 180 grn in a 40 call.
Your not wrong... I carry a Springfield XDs mod2 in 40.. and it's obvious the difference in recoil going from 180 to 165 grain fmj of the same brand . The 180 has heavier recoil because of physics... It has to push back harder against you to push the bullet out.. it doesn't sound like much .. 15 grains... But in a micro pistol you can feel it and it's obvious
I feel that the differences are not enough to shy me away from higher calibers. It's all about learning to grip your gun in such a way that allows you to cycle through your shots more accurately. Recoil recovery gets easier with time
So true, I shoot my dad's XD .45 and it feels great. I tried the XDS .45 from a guy because I was interested in buying it and I was constantly adjusting my grip, it felt like it was going to flip out of my hand. I personally feel like bigger frames, and weightier steel frames are best if you want to reduce recoil go for the biggest steel frame 9 mm. Unfortunately we're often times compromising between capacity, conceal-ability, firepower, and accuracy.
While choosing a firearm that you can personally fire well is the most important aspect in choosing a firearm, this was an outstanding test that I think effectively eliminates all possible variances.
@@cephasmartin8593 of course not. I found it very difficult to be accurate with it. There just isn't enough mass for any kind of accuracy. I get the "get off me" gun argument, but I find the recoil unmanageable for the size of the gun.
The Kahr P380 is a tiny pistol with less recoil compared to the Ruger LCP. Hickok45 has a nice review of the Kahr P380. I find it's very accurate and reliable.
Interestingly, I've seen similar things firing the 9mm and .45 acp. After firing the M9 Beretta service pistol, I noticed the recoil was not up and down, but seemed to twist up and to the left. When I rented .45 acp 1911s (and later purchasing my own) I noticed that the recoil, while heavier, was pretty much in the up and down axis, with almost no sideways twist. This was the reason I purchased a 1911, because I could get back down to the target faster, even if the muzzle flip was a little higher, because I was still "on target" vertically.
I always perceived the recoil of a 45acp as a quick push, but pulse is a great descriptive. Going from 40 to 45 really surprised me how it has a softer recoil. The 40 is abrupt and snappy. It doesn't feel as comfortable as the 45 to shoot.
I only once got the chance to make a few shots with 357 Sig. For me this short fast pop made it feel almost like less than 9mm. Very strange how different people feel about recoil and how subjective it is. When I shoot 9mm directly after 45 ACP it feels like nothing. This shows that 45 ACP has a lot more recoil. I mean 230gr compared to 115gr is exactly double the bullet weight.
I wonder if the polymer frame flexing inside a solid mount has a lot to do with how it registers the torque created by the recoil of the rounds? In human hands the frame can flex even with a firm grip yet not jump all over the place because the flex itself doesn't actually hit a solid wall but dissapates. The .40 may have a different impulse but I don't see it creating anything erratic for the user. Well this test is the closest thing I've seen to someone attempting to take the human element out of it. Would definitely like to see what a steel or aluminum frame would register in this set-up.
Yes, certainly would like to see more comparisons. E.G., 40 in polymer vs. 40 metal framed (both steel and aluminum). Compensated vs. non-comp and different types of comps. Same gun with different barrels (e.g., SIG 226 in 9 and 40). Revolvers. Really light guns vs. heavier (e.g., S&W 329 v 629). Heavy projectiles v light projectiles at max power for both. Light recoiling guns like the FN Five Seven v more conventional cartridges (9, 40, 45). BTW - I shoot 9, 40 and .45 and I like .40 - so far, haven't shot enough 40 to say for certain yet.
I've never noticed a difference caliber wise. I always laugh at the usual suspects that put comps on 9mm pistols to "tame" the recoil. I've seen tiny women handle recoil better than bigger guys.
What a Joy to sit here in Europe (Denmark) and watch and learn about Your test-setup, how you carried-out your test and the results obtained , how to understand them and how to present them to us . I find it a daring and challenging task You set yourself to MEASURE in a field where the interaction human versus technology is often driven by personal preferences and the following subjectivity in statements. You are using a new type of sensor from Mantis and it is exciting for me personally to learn about what kind of possibilities this can give for test and measurements and what learning can be obtained from the data when they are combined with other sensors; here a simple camera recording. I missed to see that you combined your radar-data with the Mantas readings - was there indications on a significant difference in STDEV in say .40 that could explain the Mantis data? Anyway thank You very much for an inspiring test and sharing this with us all.
Yes they built that pistol from the beginning as a .40 and it handles recoil better. The Gen 5 Glock in .40 is great to shoot also. It has a 3 ounce heavier slide that soaks up recoil.
It is all up to the shooter. I have printed a 30 round "string of Pearls" on 25yd silhouette. 5 mags with a Colt GCM. Near perfect. It was a little off on the sights. I managed to Siameze round 6(mag 1) and round 7 (mag 2), corrected and finished 30 round test with 29.5 holes. Awarded the moniker "Headhunter". It is the bearer of the arm that matters most.
This is awesome. Great video. .40 is still my favorite though and in my HK VP40 or Sig P226 legion, it has relatively light recoil. I’ve shot 1911 officer frames in .40 that we’re ok but not as enjoyable to shoot.
Interesting... Any way I for one shoot the 40SW better than the 9x19mm, the 45ACP, the 357Sig or the 10mm. In fact, better than anything else I sometimes shoot. Including: 22lr, 32ACP, 38Sp, 357Mag, 44Sp and 44Mag. Probabbly because 40SW is what I've been shooting the most since the early '90s when I selected a G23 as my EDC. In all fairness 40SW is all I shoot because I consistentenly hit what I shoot at, trust it, like it and it "just feels right" to me. To me It's just plain fun to launch 180gr 40SW projectiles down rage, from my G23... so, that's what I shoot, even when other platforms/calibers get to go to the range (most of the time, for other people benefit... non shooters or new shooters who want to try other stuff?)
I prefer 45acp from a full size. I dont care for the recoil characteristics of the 40sw. 9mm really depends on the gun. I like the solid thud from the 45 vs the crack of the 40
40 S&W for the win as the most uncomfortable to shoot and hardest to control out of the 3 calibers. Now if you want to talk about rifle calibers then the 45-70 is pretty hell on your shoulders.
grip weight brand of ammo barrel length hand and forearm strength all these effect recoil. what is good for one will not work for others. a big factor is what gun they can rack the slide. id like to see recoil difference in bullet weight 9mm 115g 124g 147g
I know it's too late now, but I wish 40s&w was made for large frame handguns. We all know the 10mm was shortened to fit in 9mm frames, but the power wasn't reduced enough for those small frames. When I worked at a range a few people came in to test 40 vs 10. They all came out saying the 10mm was smoother and softer shooting. I know by the ammo they bought that the 10mm was loaded to basically 40 spec, so the only difference was the frame size. I think 40 would be a perfect smooth shooting round in a large frame, but I also think it should've never existed and 10mm should have a 'standard' and +p designation.
The S&W M&P and HK USP where both designed for 40 S&W. Maybe there are a few others. Some say also that the Beretta 96 makes the 40 very nice to shoot. Also rotating barrels like the Beretta PX4 or Grand Power's pistols.
What you found explains what I have been experiencing with my pistols. When I shoot 9mm or 45 cal the guns feel like they just recoil up without any rotational torque. But my 40 cal pistols have an odd rotational action along with the recoil up motion I do not feel with any other gun. I have learned to expect it and so I still have my 40 cal guns. But it is a very unique fell that some people (like my wife) are intimidated by and so do not like to shoot 40 cal guns. Nice video. Keep up these insightful videos.
Cool science! To me, felt recoil isn't a problem in full size hand guns. I love 45acp, 10mm,, 40s&w till you put it in a little pocket rocket. I tried the Springfield 911 in 9mm and it was jumping all over the place. I ended up buying the 380. I have a gp100 and hot 357 magnums are fun to shoot out of it. When shopping for a small revolver I picked the LCR in 38 special. Recoil is not just about caliber, the gun you use is important too.
this was excellent .. you didn't over talk -(instructions are different then over talking) you didn't over talk the tech, clearly explained the purpose - and process - TY
PF for the different calibers is VERY important.. Armscor FMJ Ammunition. 9mm 124gr Muzzle Velocity 1,090 fps PF is 135 .40 S&W 180gr Muzzle Velocity 953 fps PF is 171 .45 ACP 230gr Muzzle Velocity 849 fps PF Is 195
I hate to ask but I'm curious what a Jericho 941 9mm with a steel frame would measure like. I think a heavy solid steal gun could definitely change this data
I love the way you did your testing. Very scientific and it felt very "official". I love watching gun videos here on youtube, and seen this as a recommended video. First video I have watched of yours and you have earned yourself a subscriber. Normally I watch several videos of a channel before I commit to the subscribe button, but the Intro and video sold me right away. Now I'm going to go back and watch some of your older stuff. Can't wait to see more.
I think the one take away would be that the 40 S&W is a bit more difficult to control the recoil . Which is likely how we wind up hearing all the complaints about .40 . Also the other observation would be that since the recoil of the 9mm & .45 seemed to be similar in their recoil impulse switching between 9 & 45 would be an easier transition if you can keep the it's a big gun pneumonia out of the shooters head . Honestly it's why I have 9's and 45''s and don't own any 40's anymore .
As far as actual strength of caliber, 9, 40 and 45 are all pretty close together as far as muzzle energy. Its not so much actual power that raises percieved recoil but the projectile weight. The 45 uses a much heavier bullet than 9 so the recoil is more and the user percieves it as more power when in fact it isn't. So in my eyes if your choices are 9, 40 or 45 then 9mm is the most logical choice. All 3 calibers produce 300 to 350 fpe with range ammo and up to 400 with defensive loads. So why pick a caliber that makes it harder to get follow up shots when there is no trade off of increased energy?
Very cool! Tank you for all the hard work. I wonder if the data reflects more on the glock platform than the caliber. For instance. Would doing the same tests with the H&k USP line yield the same results? Just because the USP was developed the 40SW. Where as the glock was adapted to it. Just a thought.
I am a .45ACP and 1911 guy. I love the .45ACP in my 3 1911s. Fantastic!!! I hate the .40 S&W!!! Very snappy and harder to control. The .45ACP and 9mm very nice on recoil and follow up shots. The .40 is a hybrid developed by the FBI and other law enforcement in conjunction. Maybe effective from the lessons of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout? I am going to have to tick with the .45ACP either the old G.I. 230 FMJ or the modern 9mm Parabellum with better powders and bullet configurations since the 1970s with better expansions into target. I still own all 3 of my .45ACP 1911s and my numerous 9mm Parabellum pistols to include my BYF Mauser M1908 Luger Pistol. I got rid of my only .40 S&W Sig P229. Hated that pistol.
As with all calibers 9mm and 45 ACP have had more years of development with bullet weight powder and design refinement. The 40SW is newer and if the time was taken like the 9mm and 45 ACP and with as much diligence and development then the 40SW . Isn’t that why the 9mm came back in favor over the 40SW ... it was re-developed and refined to better itself. Let’s do the same for it and see where it goes. 45 ACP has always been a favorite too. I like all the calibers. I can shoot all equally well but my 40SW just seemed to fit with me as a good round.
Despite the test results this hasn't discouraged me from still loving my .40 S&W guns. I like 9mm and .45 ACP and I understand why most people flock to 9mm for many good reasons (cheaper to shoot, less recoil, less wear on the gun, easy to manage, faster follow up shots, and higher capacity magazines). I shoot the .40 well and it is my EDC. In the end it still comes down to shot placement regardless of caliber.
watch this and see all the 9mm stuff is not true th-cam.com/video/LTTDgZZZFa0/w-d-xo.html
Shot placement also depends on the width of the bullet. Put a dime and a quarter next to each other and you can see that a wider bullet betters the chances of hitting the vitals with shot placement. Recoil aint gonna matter in a self defense shooting as you will be pumped up on adrenaline and it is not something you will even think about.
@@northshores7319 hence my reason with carrying a gun that starts with a 4. :)
@@bigsean2473 I saw Paul's video when it came out in 2017 and it validates what I always said. But I mentioned the 9mm in my comments as more of a reference point as to why so many people swear by the 9mm and not actually an admission of capitulation on my end. While the 9mm is a good round, I still believe the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective and damaging to the suspect. Shot placement is still key in slowing down an attack quicker in my view. I could be wrong.
I grew up shooting .45,now I EDC a .40 recoil has never been an issue
People who think that 45 ACP is hard to handle should spend 10 minutes in the bedroom with my wife after accidentally calling her by her sister's name during sex. Talk about recoil!
🤣🤣👍🏻
I had a girl when doing doggie she hit the D like 155 mm howitzer recoiling. Good thing she a big ole recoil buffer of an ass
🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
😮
Not the sister, the mom.
My personal preference for ammo is .45 caliber. The test is interesting.
9mm for EDC, 45 for home defense.
10MM when going out into the woods.
@Chris King I've heard the same. Why I didn't use that wording I have no idea 😂😂
I like 9 for edc Even a 40 for edc like a m&p or xds.
The 45 ACP/Auto is bigger than the 10mm...
it's 11.43*22mm (45ACP)
For perspective 380, 9, 38S, 357M, 9 Makarov are all technically 9mm calibers.
The 40, 10 and 44M are all 10mm
32 ACP (7.8mm)
380 ACP (9x17mm)
9mm Luger (9mm)9x19
38 Special (9.1mm)
357Mag (9.1mm)
9mm Makarov (9.2mm) 9x18
.40 S&W (10mm) 10x22mm
10mm Auto (10x25mm)
44 Magnum (10.9mm)
.45 ACP (11.43x22mm)
50AE (12.7mm)
.500 S&W Magnum (12.7mm)
i know Im randomly asking but does anybody know of a method to get back into an instagram account??
I stupidly forgot my login password. I would love any assistance you can give me.
@Westley Titan Instablaster ;)
.45 has always had the most consistent and pleasant recoil for me, across a wide range of gun types. Having said that, I carry and train primarily with 9mm.
Why don't you carry a .45 ?
For me .40 has much more felt recoil and snap to it. .45 in a 1911 is surprisingly easy and not a hard shooter. It’s been said many times but it’s more of a push than a snap. This is a great video with tons of info!
1911 is (surprise) full metal pistol ;) More weight - more manageable recoil.
I think it really depends on what load you shoot. 185gr 45 ACP and 180gr 40 S&W must be very similar.
@grosebud4554
Comparing a .40 S&W out of a 24 oz G23 to a .45 ACP out of a 39 oz 1911 isn't really fair.
.40 S&W 180 gr @ 950 fps is a pop gun load out of a 40 oz 1911.
According to the SAAMI specs, both the 9mm and the .40 S&W generate 35,000 psi chamber pressure. The .45 acp generates significantly less at 21,000 psi. Others for the purpose of comparison such as:
25 acp =25,000
32 acp=20,500
357 mag= 35,000
38 special=17,000
380auto=21,500
44 mag=36,000
44 special=15,500
454 casull=65,000
460 S&W=65,000
Bullet size in Millimeters:
32ACP = 7.8mm
380 ACP = 9x17mm
9mm Luger = 9x19mm
357 Magnum = 9.1mm
38 Special = 9.1mm
9 Makarov = 9.2x18mm
40 S&W = 10x22mm
10 Auto = 10x25mm
44 Magnum = 10.9mm
45 ACP = 11.43x22mm
50 AE = 12.7mm (Desert Eagle)
500 S&W Mag = 12.7mm
@@grimesresurrection9357 Irrelevant and false information.
@@grimesresurrection9357 .45 11.43x23mm
if it's to much gun for you don't shoot it simple. I like the .40 and shoot well with it.
yup ill never give up my px4 40cal best shooting gun ive shot in regular peoples price range
@@bigsean2473 👍 keeping my px4 40 cal as well. Great shooter .
gilbert carmona I have a glock 23 and can put some nice groups up. never tried the px4. how much those go for? they feel pretty good in your hand?
@@jamesbrinley8453 I paid 599. But I live in commifornia. I held every semi automatic pistol in the store. To me, it felt like it was molded to my hand. Buttery smooth recoil. Accurate out of the box. I have the px4 storm type f. You should at least go to your local shop and put it in your hand.
James Brinley Don’t shoot it simple? Shoot it complicated, like underhanded pinky on trigger sideways while sampling ice cream? I’ll try that next time. Thanks.
Now I want to know what .357sig and 10mm are in that setup!
Thirded. I'd imagine the larger frame and extended case would help keep it about as controllable.
Re: velocity, it looks like Armscor .40 S&W loads are 180 grain, where you would expect to see between 850-1000 fps depending on powder (at least, according to the loading books I have on hand, most 180 gr loads max out around 950 fps). I'd say it's proper ammunition -- the 1300 fps/lighter ammo has about the same muzzle energy. It would be interesting to see recoil impulse differences compared to heavier 200 gr, and the lighter 135/155 grs as well.
Yes please!!! Still going to carry 10mm anyway in the g29
@Ben Woodcock 40 in any way is terrible get a 10 mm
Once upon a Time I converted a s&w performance center 40 to 357 sig not as snappy as one would think if it's in a gun designed for it. Bet it's no big deal
@Ben Woodcock underwood 357sig outperforms any 40sw load...
Of the 3 calibers in the video I shoot 40 S&W the best. For the longest time I've wanted to make a Beretta 96 look like Barry Burton's from Resident Evil.
40S&W for me.My wrist feel like they've been through a fight afterwards.
9mm and 45acp pretty easy to control
I concur... However, I still prefer and carry a .40, But I'm an old, odd Bastard anyway. The .40 I shoot regularly IS a boat anchor and it just lets me know that there is some ass behind it. Again, I said that I'm an odd Bastard an LOVE my Colt Defender .45... I like my .9 in my PCP's Happy shooting!!!
100% agree
Venom GT72 Depends on the frame and weapon design.
@@UShallFallInTheEnd from one odd bastard to another, I'm reading your mail. Maybe it's a frugal money thing, but I enjoy shooting my 45's more, but am typically 40 for daily carry most of the time
Ditto, I think it has to do with barrel length. I have an HK P90 in .40 I really wanted to love that pistol. But it became a safe queen as the recoil just did not feel right. .45 is smooth as is 9mm. But the .40 was just odd so I ended up selling it.
Truly enlightening. This provides further insight and validation to what some people claim as the greater inconsistency of the 40 S&W despite being a lower caliber than the 45 ACP. And by using all glocks, you have eliminated the confounding factor of steel vs polymer. I have learned a great deal from this one video alone. Will definitely explore your other videos. Keep up the fine work!!
Great information. Love all 3 and shoot all 3. I like shooting 9mm and 45s mostly but it really depends on the gun size and weight. I shoot mainly 1911s in 45ACP, and my polymers(including my EDC) are 9mm.
But my Cz TS in 40S&W is an absolute joy to shoot.
Every1 basically says 40 sucks to shoot lol atleast out of a cock
I've just been shooting 40, and only 40 so long. I'm just used to it. The recoil just feels "regular" to me. Imo the trigger, and reset plays more of a factor in how well I can control, and how fast I can get hits.
Now, try out a 9mm 2011 one day just for comparisson, or maybe a 9mm 1911 if possible. Just for fun. I love 45, but i recognize 9mm is nice to shoot
This is really cool. I would love to see the same test for .38, .357 and .44 mag.
.38 is a Terd no sense I’m testing it
Please test .357 sig!
the problem with that would be frame size and weights of the revolvers would not make it an equal comparison, but i agree that it would still be nice to know. would like to see comparisons between K and N frames and the various barrel lengths too
Very scientific approach to an age old argument. Thank you for posting this.
The problem is with different pistols recoil changes hugely. A pistol with a low bore axis may be much more controllable and naturally weight changes recoil as well. How well you can grip the pistol has significant impact as well.
The tests are interesting but it is so hard to eliminate the variables.
It is, however, restricted to Glocks, poly frames, and self-loaders rather than full steel service .38 Special/.357/.44 S&W revolvers.
*_.50 Cal_** is a bit snappy.*
Not for Arnold in Terminator 😂
In hand a 45’s recoil is more of a push than snap like the 40. The 45 is easier to control/make faster follow up shots than the 40 because of this.
@@svaj1000 I have a Sig. .40. It's a beautiful looking gun but it's a little heavier than my .40 H&K. My Glock .45 is a lighter gun than the Sig .40. Go figure.
Very good test. This would justify my affinity for the 9 and 45.
100% the only two rounds I need in semi autos
@@MrYATHATSMYNAME You are leaving out the best one.
10mm
@@pewpewTN 9 and 45 for hoods
10mm for woods
@@govanbuttar9440 You're so right; I can't understand how many people can't stand the "violent" recoil of the .40 S&W, but run out to buy a 10mm for their carry gun. ?!?!?
For 16 years, I competed with a WW1 vintage 1911 A1 that I bought in a Jacksonville Florida gunshop in 1972. I disassembled it and kept it in my locker for three years of service aboard a DDG out of Mayport. After my discharge, I began competing with a veterans group at Penn State. In 1981 I began carrying it as a backup gun while patrolling a high crime district in a major east coast city. Best gun I ever owned.
Also bullet weights dictate recoil. Many companies will put 9mm frame and use it for the 40 smith.
@@phillipporter3965 Yes!
I got "stuck" on a .40 Springfield XD full size on my way for the first time to an indoor shooting with my more experienced cousin. Had to stop at a gun store to buy me a gun before going to the range and didn't want to waste time. There were no 9mm that day, so I settled for a .40 and never regretted it. A few years later I went to a shot show and fired various types of Glocks in all the popular calibers. None came close to recoil management like my XD, not even the 9mm. I was kind of surprised because I heard so much about Glock perfection but didn't experience it that day. My cousin even said there was little difference between my .40 and his 9mm. I later got a Shield in .40 and that one is definitely a kicker, but I did all sorts of things to it to mitigate recoil and muzzle rise.
Excellent video. I finally understand why my 40 S&W is my least favorite handgun to shoot (vs. my .380, many 9mm's & 45 ACP). I had just thought it was me. Thanks.
For me, felt recoil goes 9mm < .45 ACP < .40 S&W, and the .45 ACP in a 1911--not a revolver--is a heavier push than 9mm, but it's smooth. I haven't tried it in a polymer-framed gun. The .40 S&W feels sharper.
Do the data say anything about the duration of the impulse? I'd guess that the .40 S&W is more of a spike than the others.
Polymer framed 45s. (At least glocks and berettas ) feel pretty good to shoot. I could see making quick follow up shots with it
th-cam.com/video/LTTDgZZZFa0/w-d-xo.html
Good point. I recommend to anyone with the means to just go to a range where you can either rent or borrow guns to try out. Compare for yourself and see what you think because it is only your opinion that really matters. That said, for everyone living in such a place where that isn't an option these videos are SOOOO helpful. I'm in that first group and yet I still appreciate all these videos giving me a good start in my own research. I would never recommend a buying decision before actually trying things out on yourself first. It's like buying shoes online. I did it once but generally I want to go walk around in them in the store and compare. You should always do some hands on of your own, then make up your mind. Peoples opinions will always be all over the place.
@@montebarnes3021 have glocks in all calibers even the baby sub compact in 40 (the 27) and i can say if u can manage recoil on that little kick asser then anything else is a breeze
I actually strongly suspect there is a direct co-relation between the velocity and the duration of the recoil impulse. Then again it also seems as likely, if not more, that it is more related to the chamber pressure. Hmmmm, probably both.
I love how you got so scientific on this cause I shoot multiple calibers myself but when I try to explain to people the difference in muzzle rise they don't understand. Thank you keep up the great work
I really enjoyed the demo. I was considering getting a 40. After the demo I'm ok with my 2 45's. Great demo thanxx
That's a good data capture. You can definitely see how the human factor comes into firing a pistol. Lately I've been firing two pistols more often, both mid sized polymer framed guns in 9mm and .40 s/w. The .40 definitely seemed wilder to shoot especially after I had fired the 9mm. So what I do more often now is fire my .40 first, so I don't get used to the .9mm first and it 'seems' to make the .40 not a big deal. Sometimes I just fire the .40 only. After doing that, the 9mm feels like a very low powered pistol.
Thanks to you, Very much for spending the money & taking your time to visually & digitally show the shooting enthusiasts exactly where "Felt Recoil" comes from. I can now forever forward show this video to interested novice shooters in order to help with their understanding of the original rules of combat handgunnery.
#1) Train hard bit forsaking the known principles of marksmanship.
#2) Choose wisely the most powerful pistol with which you can shoot with reliable control.
#3) Use these skills along with situational awareness to move swiftly as possible to collect your rifle !
End of lesson. Thanks a bunch for this video !!!
Wow! Awesome data. I’m rethinking of switching to a .45 from my .40 I know allot of work went in to this. Great job!!
Calibers Measured in Millimeters
32ACP = 7.8mm
380 ACP = 9x17mm
9mm Luger = 9x19mm
357 Magnum = 9.1mm
38 Special = 9.1mm
9 Makarov = 9.2x18mm
40 S&W = 10x22mm
10 Auto = 10x25mm
44 Magnum = 10.9mm
45 ACP = 11.43x22mm
50 AE = 12.7mm (Desert Eagle)
500 S&W Mag = 12.7mm
@@grimesresurrection9357
.32 ACP = 7.65x17SR
@@gk5891 The 7,65 mm is the measrurement of the lands in the barrel. The inch diameter of the bullet is .3125 so 7.94mm. Actually you can say 32 ACP is 8mm!
@grimesrescurrection9357
32 ACP is is .3125 inch so 7.94mm actually 8mm. And 9x18 Makarov is .365 which is 9,27 so rather 9,3 mm.
I dig this kind of stuff. Great job.
This showed showed recoil between calibers on glocks. A good point to mention is that a heavier gun would also help manage recoil better. A metal and heavy 1911 chambered in 45 will still have more recoil than the same chambered in 9mm. However the recoil of a 9mm polymer will likely be harder to manage than a heavy metal 1911 that is chambered in 45. Also a longer barreled gun would help recoil. All this to say that caliber is not the only factor in the amount of recoil experienced.
.45 is just like 9mm. Except it’s for men. 😂
Sam, that was not very nice. ha ha ha ha
@Coolride17 a real mans gun is a 40 cal that holds 15 rounds. only a pussy carries 8 because it makes the gun to heavy for them. haha
45 don’t go through car doors
@@bennybands5752 says who?
@@bennybands5752nah they do apparently
I didnt realize how wild the .40 S&W round is compared to 9mm and the .45 acp. Great technical/ scientific approach in your video and thank you for sharing!
It's all about trade off. .40 S&W is superior in ballistics to both the 9mm and .45ACP as far as energy delivered into the target. If you want more power, you're gonna have to deal with more energy/recoil.
It depends on the INDIVIDUAL LOAD. I’ve used 115-grain, 1500 fps 9x19mm Parabellum in the NATO load that delivers more kinetic energy than a 155-grain STANDARD pressure .40 S&W when both are discharged from a 5-inch barrel.
I have a few handguns in different calibers. .22 through .44. The hardest one to handle is not the most powerful. It is a pocket size 9 mm. It is so light full power loads create quite a recoil, it really jumps in your hand and is the handgun most likely to give you a slide cut if you're not careful.
Fantastic setup and great info! Thank you for all the time and hard work you put into your videos!!
Is totally subjective to the ability of the person handling the firearm. If you've got someone who is small or frail, the 9mm is going to be the way to go, but it certainly isn't the best caliber in terms of handgun cartridges. With all things being equal, if the bullets weighed the same, if they flew it the same velocity, the 40 or the 45 would simply have more Advantage because it's going to cut a bigger hole. Whether it expands or not. 9 mm starts at .355, and can expand to 6 or slightly more. 40 caliber starts at 40, and doubles to 80, and the 45, starts at 45 and can double to almost 90. Since handgun cartridges can't get to that magic 2000 foot per second to where the stretch cavity is permanent via hydrostatic displacement, and if that bullet does not hit a part of the nervous system, the only thing that's causing the stoppage can be through blood loss. Larger diameter holes cause more blood loss. So shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately.
Thanks so much for your channel I'm glad that you are interested in teaching us not just blowing things up. I'd love to see you and Paul Harrell do a video together 😁
One day at the range I had the opportunity to shoot a Kel-Tec P-9 (9mm) and a P-40 (.40 S&W) back to back. They're the same gun other than the breech face, barrel and magazine; both weighing in at 12 ounces empty. I was surprised that the felt recoil of the 9mm insignificantly lighter than the .40. I also had the opportunity to shoot an STI Edge 2011 double stack pistol in .40. The torque and wobble of the .40 was really noticeable even in a heavy, mostly steel (steel slide and frame with a polymer grip, 20 round capacity) firearm. The guy giving instruction recommended rotating the STI about 25°-30° clockwise when shooting with the weak hand do it would rotate to vertical in recoil. That actually worked very well for all of the people that tried it.
Good video, interesting data. From what I’ve learned the Glock 17 was designed for the 9mm round. The Glock 21 was designed for the 45ACP but for the 40S&W Glock basically just used a Glock 17 and didn’t design a firearm for the caliber. Could that also factor into the 40S&W torquing action? The caliber being a bit too much for the firearm and bending the polymer frame?
VERY MUCH. Shoot an M&P 40 next to a Glock. The M&P is noticeably better in .40S&W
As well, the recoil spring on the glock 22 is the same as the glock 17, the recoils spring for the glock 17 is a 17lbs spring, the put the same one on the glock 22, the glock 21 has a longer recoil spring ( only a little bit larger but surely longer ). I putted a 24 lbs recoil srping on my G22 and the recoil feel even better than shooting a G17.
M&P series 2.0 were made for the .40 caliber in mind, that is why they come with a metal skeleton inside of the polimer frame, making it more resistant to twisting and robust.
a little simplistic. the g22 has a heavier slide, and extra frame pin, and bigger locking block. When you use a heavier spring, the return motion of slide becomes heavier. The barrel.hood is also slanted to minimize slide pressure.
The frame of most 9mm and 40 cal are the same, some only need a recoil spring and some use the same one for both.
AF2011-A1 is an amazing double barrel 45ACP that holds a double clip of 10each(20rd Total) sending 2x 45 Autos their way
You should try a firearm that was designed for the 40, like the USP... Very pleasant to shoot
GOOD JOB 👍🏾Your video showed the degree of muzzel rise and that was all I needed to determine which cailber is best for getting back on target after a shot; the 9mm is best.
I couldn't "Feel" the difference between my .40s and my Glock .45. I thought they were about the same. But a 10 degree difference is pretty significant.
This is some quality content, appreciate the effort, I was trying to decide between 9 and 45.
That was interesting. Good information. I've always liked 45 acp more than 40 s&w. But this is good scientific info. Well done.
After decades of firearm ownership I'm getting my first .40 "HK USP", if anything can tame the recoil impulse it should be that pistol. It would be interesting to see such a comparison between several popular .40 caliber offerings and even the other calibers as well. Personally, my favorites are the lighter recoiling pistols like the FN 5.7 & .22TCM9R, they literally are a blast to shoot with virtually zero recoil.
You might get different results with different guns, responding differently to each round, including barrel harmonics. You might potentially find guns that behave much better with .40 S&W than other guns (and likewise for other calibers). Add to that the human element in a combination with each gun (ergonomics and tolerance for different kinds of recoil), and you have a research project for years to come :). Anecdotal personal example: I don't like Glock 17 - the recoil feels mushy and twisty to me. Perhaps I should try a shorter barrel. Or try different ammo? I do, however, like Glock 22 a lot - its recoil feels crisp and precise to me. I can shoot it better that G17. I also like Glock 21, despite increased barrel rise. I can also shoot it better than G17. I don't like full size 1911 (let the stoning commence). Its recoil also feels like someone was moving the tip of my barrel up and to the side. However, I only shot the slow 230 gr in the 1911. My perception might be quite different with the faster 180 gr. Then add shorter commander-style barrels... you see where this is going.
th-cam.com/video/LTTDgZZZFa0/w-d-xo.html
@Big Sean -- I know that video. How does it relate to my comment about the complexity of different factors?
@@mountainhobo it shows that between 9 and 40 there is no difference if you train with them. he was even better with the 40 on somethings. but looking at your comment i think i sent it by mistake to you.
Exactly.
I love my Glock 22. I've shot it cold, 1st shot out of my vehicle, and rocked a 10 inch steel plate at 120 yards.
I haven’t checked but suspect that the inconsistency of the 40 is because it is is a higher pressure cartridge than either the 9 or the 45. My experience is mostly with revolvers and I know that I get less perceived recoil with my Ruger 45 Colt (.452 diameter) loaded to the same velocity for a 250 gr. bullet as a 44 magnum (.429 diameter) with a 250 gr. bullet.
That is because it takes less pressure for the 45 Colt than the 44 magnum to do the same work because the surface area of the back of the 45 bullet is larger. Read John Linebaugh’s writings for more on this.
It would be interesting to do your experiment using loads with the same as close as possible weight and velocity loads.
I’d like to see the G20 and G31 added to those results to compare all five. Definitely one of the best test I’ve seen because it’s as scientific as possible without any bias. Can’t wait for another.
Before we get started, the ransom rest does not allow the firearm to rotate at the same fulcrum point that it rotates in the hand. A fire arm rotates at the top of the hand which is where the axis is created. And then transfers that rotation to the wrist. The Ransom rest is actually has a fixed fulcrum Point underneath the grip. The only Advantage it has is that it will be consistent. But you cannot use the differential and apply it to the hand because the hand doesn't exemplify the same physics as the ransom rest.
As an example, the Arsenal arms First Strike 9 mm has a bore axis that is so close to the hand that The Recoil impulse in the hottest night millimeters is still around a 10 degree movement. Which is basically exemplified by the cycling of the slide and with a slide comes back home it actually pushes the bore right back down on target. It has always been my contention that the majority of felt recoil is the cycling of the slide which in some Firearms is actually felt more in a 9 mm then in some 45s I have shot. And that's frequently because of the bore axis and it's height above the fulcrum point between the thumb and forefinger.
I have seen these tests done before with Ransom rest. Resetting the firearm by using the barrel or slide is not a problem. My question is, how much math do you have to use to try and extrapolate the difference between the fulcrum point of the ransom rest and putting the fulcrum point where the firearm is when in the hand? Would it be out of hand to ask Ransom rest to see if they can alter the rest to a proper fulcrum point?
You may find that the true difference between 9 mm and 40 Smith is less then what is exemplified here as well as with 45. I would have also like to see 357 Sig which at least presents a 9 mm bullet and is capable of propelling it at a speed which is closer to 357 Magnum which is the Benchmark for first shot fight Stoppers. The 124 / 125 grain hollow point at approximately 1450 feet per second is The Benchmark for first shot stops. There is a slight advantage to a revolver bullet that doesn't have a jacket that runs all the way down to the Leading Edge of the projectile.
Apparently the animal that you use for the 40 Smith test is inconsistent either in case capacity or in powder charge. But if given the choice I will take a 40 Smith over the 9 mm every single time. It produces a permanent wound cavity in ballistic gel that exceeds the best 9 mm by 20% or better with each shot. And that's assuming I 155 to 165 grain Speer Gold Dot or Winchester PDX round running at about 1250 feet per second.
As for the torque imparted on a polymer frame handgun is yet another reason why I don't particularly care for plastic guns. When I first moved into a carry gun in semi-auto. I picked up a CZ variant 40 Smith with a steel frame that has a nice trigger. I really smooth double action trigger even though I don't carry it double action, I carry cocked and locked, and it shoots quite nicely. And if you carry a firearm on a regular basis a little extra weight is not an issue.
Did you take into account the weight difference between the slides of the three firearms. I believe that the slide on the 40 and 9 mm should be the same? Which is not proper engineering. And the slide of the 45 should be heavier. I believe it's also logger?
So you're showing about 50% difference in Recoil because the fulcrum Point has changed when you handle the firearm. At least as far as the 45 at 9 mm are concerned but only about a 30% difference in the 40 Smith. I believe that that maybe accountable to the slide weight of the 40 Smith being the same as that for the 9 mm. But I would have to see those weights. when brick National built the Browning hi-power in 40 Smith they used a slide that was 2 and 1/4 ounces heavier than for the 9 millimeter. The reason being is that although 40 Smith is generally loaded about 15% below it's MAX Pressure. It is still possible to achieve that 15% higher pressures without causing a problem in the firearm provided it's engineered properly. I don't believe Glock ever actually engineered the firearm to fire 40 Smith. All they did was change the barrel and possibly The Recoil spring and expected a firearm that was specifically designed for 9 mm to fire a beefier cartridge and then wine and crime that it was causing damage to their firearms.
The 40 gives me the rush that I need, Vietnam Vet USMC. Semper Fi
Why do you need a rush? Vietnam Vet, USN. Non sibi sed patriae.
Army 45's are for real warriors private
5:20 The Lab Radar does not need to know the bullet weight to determine velocity. It uses the bullet weight to calculate energy.
.40 cal is terrible with lots of dim light muzzle flash, recoil and gun wear in short barrel carry autos. I carry a Shield 9 most of the time, but also have a Shield 45 that is easy to shoot even with 230 HSTs.
Really cool data man! I analyze industrial vibration/performance data in my line of work, so this is really interesting to me.
I definitely think the ransom rest is a good medium to use for comparison, but it seems it doesn’t address the rearward drive that the .45acp has as opposed to the snappy nature of the smaller calibers. Really cool to see the torque plotted out there though. That really tells the tale that most people have never seen.
Keep this series going man!
Thanks man! 🇺🇸💥👍🏻
Competitive shooters know this for the most part but you should hold every pistol the same. You should hold it with 100 percent of your strength no matter what caliber. Well if you want to shoot fast and recover on target faster. Thats why when people say I hold it harder cause it kicks more I dont agree. You should be doing it no matter what cause that is your recoil control and recovery on target.
Exactly. I don't know about all this death grip stuff some teach. I agree on a very firm and tight grip that is just shy of where you would begin shaking. Maybe 85-90% of that. Grip each gun the same way for consistency AND for habit building. The exceptions would be revolver vs auto and guns so small you can't hold them that way. Of course he did say "unconsciously" gripping tighter. I agree with him that many people do sort of get more serious about it when they perceive more recoil is inbound. They will relax more with a lighter load or caliber and tend to grip a bit softer. I think this is mostly unintentional, but also should be something they become conscious of. Then train with consistency to just do it right habitually regardless of what they are shooting.
In my opinion the grain has more to due with the ability to control recoil. Everyone will have an opinion. I produce better shot placement with 155 grn vs 180 grn in a 40 call.
Your not wrong... I carry a Springfield XDs mod2 in 40.. and it's obvious the difference in recoil going from 180 to 165 grain fmj of the same brand . The 180 has heavier recoil because of physics... It has to push back harder against you to push the bullet out.. it doesn't sound like much .. 15 grains... But in a micro pistol you can feel it and it's obvious
That's trully science!
I feel that the differences are not enough to shy me away from higher calibers. It's all about learning to grip your gun in such a way that allows you to cycle through your shots more accurately. Recoil recovery gets easier with time
It depends upon the design and weight of the pistol.
Very true... a test with all CZs or something similar would be nice, al 1911s too
Add in 10mm
So true, I shoot my dad's XD .45 and it feels great. I tried the XDS .45 from a guy because I was interested in buying it and I was constantly adjusting my grip, it felt like it was going to flip out of my hand. I personally feel like bigger frames, and weightier steel frames are best if you want to reduce recoil go for the biggest steel frame 9 mm. Unfortunately we're often times compromising between capacity, conceal-ability, firepower, and accuracy.
Agreed
Thanks in the information ! But What about the 357 sig .?
The .357 Sig is a 9mm on steroids. It has a brutal snap that many people hate. The caliber is becoming extinct.
This is great information, sir. I always appreciate this type of technical video. Thank you very much!
While choosing a firearm that you can personally fire well is the most important aspect in choosing a firearm, this was an outstanding test that I think effectively eliminates all possible variances.
A .380ACP fired from a Ruger LCP. Talk about uncontrollable recoil.
Really? I don't find my LCP uncontrollable. Were you expecting it to be like a .22LR?
@@cephasmartin8593 of course not. I found it very difficult to be accurate with it. There just isn't enough mass for any kind of accuracy. I get the "get off me" gun argument, but I find the recoil unmanageable for the size of the gun.
Kel Tec p32 makes a nice little pocket/ gut gun,
Upgrade to the LCP II, that goes away. It’s an immensely improved pistol over the original LCP
The Kahr P380 is a tiny pistol with less recoil compared to the Ruger LCP.
Hickok45 has a nice review of the Kahr P380. I find it's very accurate and reliable.
Interestingly, I've seen similar things firing the 9mm and .45 acp. After firing the M9 Beretta service pistol, I noticed the recoil was not up and down, but seemed to twist up and to the left. When I rented .45 acp 1911s (and later purchasing my own) I noticed that the recoil, while heavier, was pretty much in the up and down axis, with almost no sideways twist. This was the reason I purchased a 1911, because I could get back down to the target faster, even if the muzzle flip was a little higher, because I was still "on target" vertically.
That’s because the beretta has a rotating barrel.
So that could be why.
I love the recoil “pulse” of my 45s. 9mm is “jerky” and my .357 sig is a hard pop/push.
My .45 acp 1911 S&W Commander with scandium is my daily carry.
I always perceived the recoil of a 45acp as a quick push, but pulse is a great descriptive. Going from 40 to 45 really surprised me how it has a softer recoil. The 40 is abrupt and snappy. It doesn't feel as comfortable as the 45 to shoot.
I only once got the chance to make a few shots with 357 Sig. For me this short fast pop made it feel almost like less than 9mm. Very strange how different people feel about recoil and how subjective it is. When I shoot 9mm directly after 45 ACP it feels like nothing. This shows that 45 ACP has a lot more recoil. I mean 230gr compared to 115gr is exactly double the bullet weight.
I wonder if the polymer frame flexing inside a solid mount has a lot to do with how it registers the torque created by the recoil of the rounds? In human hands the frame can flex even with a firm grip yet not jump all over the place because the flex itself doesn't actually hit a solid wall but dissapates. The .40 may have a different impulse but I don't see it creating anything erratic for the user. Well this test is the closest thing I've seen to someone attempting to take the human element out of it. Would definitely like to see what a steel or aluminum frame would register in this set-up.
Shot some 10mm yesterday. Has a bit more recoil than 9mm. It’s expensive $$ though. Ouch
Fast forward a year and 10mm is often cheaper than 9mm
Yes, certainly would like to see more comparisons. E.G., 40 in polymer vs. 40 metal framed (both steel and aluminum). Compensated vs. non-comp and different types of comps. Same gun with different barrels (e.g., SIG 226 in 9 and 40). Revolvers. Really light guns vs. heavier (e.g., S&W 329 v 629). Heavy projectiles v light projectiles at max power for both. Light recoiling guns like the FN Five Seven v more conventional cartridges (9, 40, 45).
BTW - I shoot 9, 40 and .45 and I like .40 - so far, haven't shot enough 40 to say for certain yet.
I've never noticed a difference caliber wise. I always laugh at the usual suspects that put comps on 9mm pistols to "tame" the recoil. I've seen tiny women handle recoil better than bigger guys.
What a Joy to sit here in Europe (Denmark) and watch and learn about Your test-setup, how you carried-out your test and the results obtained , how to understand them and how to present them to us . I find it a daring and challenging task You set yourself to MEASURE in a field where the interaction human versus technology is often driven by personal preferences and the following subjectivity in statements. You are using a new type of sensor from Mantis and it is exciting for me personally to learn about what kind of possibilities this can give for test and measurements and what learning can be obtained from the data when they are combined with other sensors; here a simple camera recording. I missed to see that you combined your radar-data with the Mantas readings - was there indications on a significant difference in STDEV in say .40 that could explain the Mantis data? Anyway thank You very much for an inspiring test and sharing this with us all.
40 doesn't recoil as bad in a M&P 40 Full size pistol. Great test Paul 👍🇺🇸
Amen.
True
Yes they built that pistol from the beginning as a .40 and it handles recoil better. The Gen 5 Glock in .40 is great to shoot also. It has a 3 ounce heavier slide that soaks up recoil.
It is all up to the shooter. I have printed a 30 round "string of Pearls" on 25yd silhouette. 5 mags with a Colt GCM. Near perfect. It was a little off on the sights. I managed to Siameze round 6(mag 1) and round 7 (mag 2), corrected and finished 30 round test with 29.5 holes. Awarded the moniker "Headhunter". It is the bearer of the arm that matters most.
This is awesome. Great video. .40 is still my favorite though and in my HK VP40 or Sig P226 legion, it has relatively light recoil. I’ve shot 1911 officer frames in .40 that we’re ok but not as enjoyable to shoot.
The gen 5 .40 has a heavier thicker slide, I'd like to see an update
Interesting...
Any way I for one shoot the 40SW better than the 9x19mm, the 45ACP, the 357Sig or the 10mm. In fact, better than anything else I sometimes shoot. Including: 22lr, 32ACP, 38Sp, 357Mag, 44Sp and 44Mag.
Probabbly because 40SW is what I've been shooting the most since the early '90s when I selected a G23 as my EDC.
In all fairness 40SW is all I shoot because I consistentenly hit what I shoot at, trust it, like it and it "just feels right" to me. To me It's just plain fun to launch 180gr 40SW projectiles down rage, from my G23... so, that's what I shoot, even when other platforms/calibers get to go to the range (most of the time, for other people benefit... non shooters or new shooters who want to try other stuff?)
Yes sir!
I prefer 45acp from a full size. I dont care for the recoil characteristics of the 40sw. 9mm really depends on the gun. I like the solid thud from the 45 vs the crack of the 40
40 S&W for the win as the most uncomfortable to shoot and hardest to control out of the 3 calibers. Now if you want to talk about rifle calibers then the 45-70 is pretty hell on your shoulders.
My Grandpa has a marlin 45-70 and after firing that thing about 16 times I didn't want to shoot that thing anymore. He loves big bore guns.
grip
weight
brand of ammo
barrel length
hand and forearm strength
all these effect recoil. what is good for one will not work for others. a big factor is what gun they can rack the slide.
id like to see recoil difference in bullet weight 9mm 115g 124g 147g
Coming soon!
Hats off brother, you went above and beyond answering my question! Great ingenuity!
Thank you! 🙏🏻
I know it's too late now, but I wish 40s&w was made for large frame handguns. We all know the 10mm was shortened to fit in 9mm frames, but the power wasn't reduced enough for those small frames. When I worked at a range a few people came in to test 40 vs 10. They all came out saying the 10mm was smoother and softer shooting. I know by the ammo they bought that the 10mm was loaded to basically 40 spec, so the only difference was the frame size. I think 40 would be a perfect smooth shooting round in a large frame, but I also think it should've never existed and 10mm should have a 'standard' and +p designation.
those frames back then. newer guns in 40cal are much stronger there not still using the same weak 9mm frames from back then.
The S&W M&P and HK USP where both designed for 40 S&W. Maybe there are a few others. Some say also that the Beretta 96 makes the 40 very nice to shoot. Also rotating barrels like the Beretta PX4 or Grand Power's pistols.
Very scientific, I appreciate the time you put into this video 👍
What you found explains what I have been experiencing with my pistols. When I shoot 9mm or 45 cal the guns feel like they just recoil up without any rotational torque. But my 40 cal pistols have an odd rotational action along with the recoil up motion I do not feel with any other gun. I have learned to expect it and so I still have my 40 cal guns. But it is a very unique fell that some people (like my wife) are intimidated by and so do not like to shoot 40 cal guns. Nice video. Keep up these insightful videos.
It would be interesting to see what the test would show with the 10mm.
Cool science! To me, felt recoil isn't a problem in full size hand guns. I love 45acp, 10mm,, 40s&w till you put it in a little pocket rocket. I tried the Springfield 911 in 9mm and it was jumping all over the place. I ended up buying the 380. I have a gp100 and hot 357 magnums are fun to shoot out of it. When shopping for a small revolver I picked the LCR in 38 special. Recoil is not just about caliber, the gun you use is important too.
This is the best scientific test on recoil comparison I have ever seen. Great job!
this was excellent .. you didn't over talk -(instructions are different then over talking) you didn't over talk the tech, clearly explained the purpose - and process - TY
The problem is that people often use +P in defensive 9mm ammo. So these results are basically just testing target loads.
PF for the different calibers is VERY important..
Armscor FMJ Ammunition.
9mm 124gr Muzzle Velocity
1,090 fps PF is 135
.40 S&W 180gr Muzzle Velocity
953 fps PF is 171
.45 ACP 230gr Muzzle Velocity
849 fps PF Is 195
This is a true review and unbiased! I want a setup like this to zero my weapons at the range.
I hate to ask but I'm curious what a Jericho 941 9mm with a steel frame would measure like. I think a heavy solid steal gun could definitely change this data
One factor not mentioned is accuracy. What would be the group sizes by the same shooter with each of the test guns?
I love the way you did your testing. Very scientific and it felt very "official". I love watching gun videos here on youtube, and seen this as a recommended video. First video I have watched of yours and you have earned yourself a subscriber. Normally I watch several videos of a channel before I commit to the subscribe button, but the Intro and video sold me right away. Now I'm going to go back and watch some of your older stuff. Can't wait to see more.
Very kind of you. Thank you very much!
I think the one take away would be that the 40 S&W is a bit more difficult to control the recoil . Which is likely how we wind up hearing all the complaints about .40 . Also the other observation would be that since the recoil of the 9mm & .45 seemed to be similar in their recoil impulse switching between 9 & 45 would be an easier transition if you can keep the it's a big gun pneumonia out of the shooters head . Honestly it's why I have 9's and 45''s and don't own any 40's anymore .
As far as actual strength of caliber, 9, 40 and 45 are all pretty close together as far as muzzle energy. Its not so much actual power that raises percieved recoil but the projectile weight. The 45 uses a much heavier bullet than 9 so the recoil is more and the user percieves it as more power when in fact it isn't. So in my eyes if your choices are 9, 40 or 45 then 9mm is the most logical choice. All 3 calibers produce 300 to 350 fpe with range ammo and up to 400 with defensive loads. So why pick a caliber that makes it harder to get follow up shots when there is no trade off of increased energy?
Because .45 silences nice.
155gr 40s&w makes over 500fpe. there is a bigg difference the 40 is far more powerful the the 9mm or 45
@@asherdie that is absolutely a good point. .45 trumps 9 and .40 in regards to suppressors hands down.
@@toki89666 180gr 40S&W is also sub sonnic in most cases.
45 is also a bigger bullet though
This is THE MOST scientific comparison I've ever seen in regards to recoil. Excellent video sir!
Yes you cant go more scientific!
Testing with Compensators added to the pistols would also be very informative.
Awesome set up!!!!! Clear precise & to the point.
Very cool! Tank you for all the hard work. I wonder if the data reflects more on the glock platform than the caliber. For instance. Would doing the same tests with the H&k USP line yield the same results? Just because the USP was developed the 40SW. Where as the glock was adapted to it. Just a thought.
I am a .45ACP and 1911 guy. I love the .45ACP in my 3 1911s. Fantastic!!! I hate the .40 S&W!!! Very snappy and harder to control. The .45ACP and 9mm very nice on recoil and follow up shots. The .40 is a hybrid developed by the FBI and other law enforcement in conjunction. Maybe effective from the lessons of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout? I am going to have to tick with the .45ACP either the old G.I. 230 FMJ or the modern 9mm Parabellum with better powders and bullet configurations since the 1970s with better expansions into target. I still own all 3 of my .45ACP 1911s and my numerous 9mm Parabellum pistols to include my BYF Mauser M1908 Luger Pistol. I got rid of my only .40 S&W Sig P229. Hated that pistol.
This meets almost everything for a science paper, well done test my man!
As with all calibers 9mm and 45 ACP have had more years of development with bullet weight powder and design refinement. The 40SW is newer and if the time was taken like the 9mm and 45 ACP and with as much diligence and development then the 40SW . Isn’t that why the 9mm came back in favor over the 40SW ... it was re-developed and refined to better itself. Let’s do the same for it and see where it goes. 45 ACP has always been a favorite too. I like all the calibers. I can shoot all equally well but my 40SW just seemed to fit with me as a good round.