I'm getting up there in age and the last time I took one of my 1911's out for a spin with 230 grain HB, I found that the recoil beat the hell out of the ball of my right thumb. The joint started to get numb and pretty soon I developed a persistent flinch. If anyone dares to tell you that old age is enjoyable...tell them to pound sand :)
I find that l most effectively warm my swollen knuckles on a cold winter morning at the range by using a .50 S&W revolver with a custom special extra big cylinder gap to rest my aching joints against.
The FBI has done myriad studies to identify “the most effective pistol caliber.” The answer uniformly is: the one that hits a vital spot....hitting what you are shooting at out-weighs the caliber you’re shooting.
The FBI after the Florida disaster did a lot of research, the outcome of which was a bigger round at higher velocity, the 10mm. The actual FBI shooters could shoot the heavy round 10s and manage the increased recoil and the larger framed grips. What they did not take into account when they adoped the 10mm was that the majority of the FBI agents are not shooters, but at the time were recruited lawyers and accountants, etc. They were folk that did not really practice with a firearm any more than was required to maintain the job. Therefore their proficiency and the ability to qualify degraded drastically. The FBI dropped from the 10mm to the S&W 40, a 10 mm short. Still more recoil and bigger and heavier than the 9mm. Eventually it has gone back to the 9mm, not really because of improvements in bullets, but because it is easier to shoot and maintain basic profiency. Smaller handed people, older people who are beginning to realize age and arthritis and folk who will not spend the needed amount of time to become proficient with the more dificult to handle calibers can manage the 9mm. Before you start screaming at me, I too am an old shooter. I started with the .357 and .44 magnums. I moved to the .45acp and then later the 10mm. I was selected by the head of my agency to assist the department armorer to transition our force, about 100 folk, from whatever they were carrying at the time to an issued weapon of the Glock 20 10mm. During the transition we were able to qualify EVERY officer with a pass/fail of 90% both day and night firing. Six months later it was easy to see who practiced and who did not. No practice mean no qualification. No qualification meant desk assignement and range time till requalified, which led to a lot of officers lost temorairly from their assignments. The department later transitioned from the 10mm to the 45acp, citing cheaper ammo and lower recoil. They have again transitioned, this time to 9mm. I had carried a 9mm at times for concealment purposes, a Browning Hi Power, which happened to be almost as big as my 1911s. The 9mm is definitely more fun to shoot. Prior to covid, much chaper. For fun I will currently shoot one of my 9mm, but the majority of the time I carry a 1911 in either .45acp or 10mm. I also agree with what Mr. Hackathorn stated, that it is where the round is placed, not what the round is, BUT I also believe in physics that the larger bullet, delivering more energy still gives an edge over the 9mm.
@@rexelliott3860 with this being said I have a 9 I bought for home defense but it holds 17 rounds which I prefer so I guess next step is ar pistol or short rifle 🤷🏽
@@elli003 got a lot of those running around where you're at? Gotta say I haven't run into a PCP fueled football player anywhere near me. Guess I'm just that lucky 99.9999%
I have two identical 1911's one is in 45 the other is in 9 mm. 9 mm is snappier but it pushes a little less, the 45 pushes harder but it snaps less, and the 45 is just a bigger heavier bullet going a little bit slower, and the nine millimeter is a lighter bullet going a little bit faster. For my old arthritic hands the 45 is much more comfortable to shoot.
I agree. As you can see in my profile pic, I am holding 2 guns. 1 on each hand. One is a 9mm and the other is a .45. And I totally agree with what you've said.
I agree - it is the peak impulse of recoil that causes the most nerve damage and perception of recoil. A larger caliber with a more gradual recoil impulse can be significantly more comfortable to shoot, particularly when recoil spring tension is high enough to damp slide movement to a virtual stop prior to the point of frame contact. Compare, for example, a 7.62x25 Tokarev in a 34 ounce CZ 52, against a .40 S&W in a 22 ounce Taurus G2C. The .30 caliber, high bore axis Tokarev is marginally controllable; the .40 caliber Taurus - eminently so, and comfortable to shoot, despite the fact that they essentially match each other in muzzle energy.
I love the .45, but due to the lack of round capacity, I always defaulted to 9mm. That is, of course, until I was introduced to the Walther PPQ .45. The round capacity is there and I'll be doggone if I can't shoot it just about as fast and as accurate as my 9. That said, I'm now back to .45 for my EDC and man does it feel good. Walther for the win any day.
Jack Benton It cam effect the average guy if other manufacturers look to a Wilson for inspiration. Sure Wilson will sell for more than the average guy will spend but a $700 9mm Wilson clone is sure to follow.
At 2:28 Ken Hackathorn says, "I've got all that .45 230gr. ball I've saved like it was Gold Sovereign's." Little did he know it would be worth more than that today.
I've been a .45 guy for over 40 years and still believe there's "no replacement for displacement." Knowing shot placement is always most important, better ammo, accuracy and comfort factor greatly. It also doesn't hurt to have 15 rounds.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 Remington R1 Enhanced double stack is what I'm looking for, it's basically para but polished, damn shame about Remington tho. I might have found a replacement though, the Sar K2 45 and Sar K2 45C, check it out it looks amazing.
@@Havanorange You sir need to "learn about physics". Average out the diameter of the wound channel then calculate the cross sectional area and multiply that by the length of the wound channel. The result is the volume of matter that the round has displaced. Run the exercise for yourself and you will see that the 45 ACP is superior to the 9mm.
Great video! I'm a. 45acp man myself but since my shoulder injury I have switched to the 9mm for a lil lighter recoil in my hand and shoulder joints. I'm loving it more and more. I use my .45acp for home defense but carry 9mm. 😎
You know why this question will never go away? Because there are so many variables. Understand the variables in perfomance, capacity, shootability, cost, and square them against what you need and even how you feel about it. Then practice and get training. Study to show thyself approved. The humble 22 to the brain works every time! The .380 you have with you is better than the hi cap 45 you leave at home. Its about ballancing the variables. IMHO.
Really nice to get such a discussion from two, of a handful or two, of very widely acknowledged experts. I have read a number of articles by and about both of you and spoken with Bill on the phone. Could not have had a more favorable impression of Bill...a very good listener, who gave quite insightful answers and all the while came across as being surprisingly humble... especially given his accomplishments.
The gimmick is that people always have to slip in the fine print that you have to get 9mm defense ammo; that negates the cost offset. .45 ball is absolutely always going to outperform 9mm ball.
I own both the 9mm and .45 and love both. I actually rotate carrying between the two. At the end of the day I still prefer the .45 pistol with Federal HST 230 grain JHP ammo. Nothing more devastating!!!
45ACP has seen the same improvements in bullet tech as 9mm and still puts more energy into a target and does more tissue damage then a 9mm. Will stick with 45acp as long as possible. 10mm beats both hands down.
@@FirearmEnthusiast Faster bullets don't mean better, its doesn't mean a thing if the bullet can't dump its engery into a target. The 7.62 bullet is slower then a 5.56 bullet but substantially more energy and at distance can still drop a target where as the 5.56 doesn't do as well. Also even worse if it doesn't tumble as desiged to it doesn't do anything to a target. Hence why the military left the M855 because of how terrible it performed. It was extremely fast moving but just zipped through
I think the 9mm is good for my concealed carry out the house and my .45 for in my home because of my layout inside and out and believe that the 9mm was to miss it would penetrate threw the interior and exterior walls slightly easier putting my neighbors at risk plus if inside my home I'd only hope to have to shoot once rather that be a 45.If outside I think you never know the distance or cover if a altercation so capacity and quicker controll and shoot placement goes to the 9mm .Love them both and believe they both have a place for the right situation
No ego, no loud craprock music, no "law enforcement/special forces/military/etc." smugness, just 2 really cool and relaxed dudes talkin' guns. They MUST do an episode with Hickok45!
These 2 have forgotten more than that “Fudd” Hickok45 will ever know. Give me a break. I can’t even believe you’re mentioning him in the same sentence as these pioneers and ambassadors. They’ve “been there and done that”. What’s Hickok done? Shoots guns on TH-cam. Oh boy!
I’m an old guy too and grew up with a deep respect for a 45 1911, in particular a Colt Combat Commander. I have tried to develop a love for the Glock 19 but it just doesn’t seem the same. I got a WC X9 about a year ago and the more I shoot it the more I like it. It feels natural in the hand and hits well for me. I may be becoming a 9mm guy too. Thank you Bill for continuing to evolve the 1911 platform.
I shot a lot of 9mm I’m my life, and I was never too accurate with it. I shot a 45 for the first time and I was shocked on how accurate I was and how close my grouping was
Same thing happened to me. I shot tons of 9mm pistols. Then one day I shot my first 1911 in 45 ace, and for whatever reason, I can hit the target much easier with that 45. I think it’s just the slower push of the 45 compared to the snap of the 9mm
I usually carry a .45, something about it just... feels easy to shoot for me, I don't know why. I like them both, they kick in different ways, but something feels more suited to my shooting style about the .45
Am a 74 year old Male and the first large bore pistol I got was from a friend of mine who’s Grandfather had died and he sold me a Colt SAA with the 7.4 inch barrel for 50 dollars. When I was given the opportunity to shoot on Rocketdynes Pistol team, that My Dad was working at, when I was 15 years old, when I turned 16 I bought the Ruger automatic 22 pistol with the bull barrel and the Colt Combat Commander and had a Gunsmith put Micro sight put on it and he silver soldier the barrel to tighten it up. The Gentleman on the Pistol Team not only taught me but let me try their guns and their reloads . I was developing a Cataract in my right eye and with pistols being right handed I could use my left eye. I became an Expert with the 22 and a Sharpshooter with the 45 . I was given a K-22 S&W by my Grandfather and soon fell in love with that gun . Being raised on a farm and had chickens I took care of and a garden were I grew corn 🌽, lettuce 🥬, tomatoes 🍅, spinach , lettuce along with onions and carrots 🥕 and potatoes 🥔. Not only rabbits were everywhere but ground squirrels. I used thin copper wire to trap them and being I could get 10 cents for every tail of the ground squirrels I saved enough to buy my first 22 rifle which was a Marlin 39A and being my eyesight wasn’t that good I put a scope on it with 2-7 power and when CCI came out with the Stinger it opened up an entirely different range of effectiveness. I inherited a 03 Springfield that my Dad built and took my first Deer with it. As I grew up and was going on an Elk hunt I bought the new Remington with the 300 WSM and reloaded the 180 gr MRX . That combo has taken Elk, multiple Russian Boar 🐗 and a 700 pound Brown Bear in Alaska. I had to pass up a huge Elk in Wyoming were I had only a neck shot and bought a used Weatherby 340 and put a Carlson Stock on it with the Vortex Scope. After about 7 months I had a Cardiac arrest in early 2019 and have been recovering since then. Please excuse my Personal ramblings and I appreciate your taking the time to read what I’ve written.
But they all fall with hardball! Lol. I do still love a .45 and actually my last handgun purchase was a Springfield MC Operator in .45 and I love it. Very accurate. I did break down and bought my first 9 a couple years ago, a Storm Compact and I wouldn't hesitate to carry it. I don't have OPA to shoot so trashing my hand is not really a concern.
I find it interesting how everyone who tells me they carry a 9mm because of the lower recoil (referring to the recoil of the standard fmj) end up carrying a +p+ which kicks harder than my .40 and .45. and negates their argument. (recoil argument, not capacity argument)
Those people shouldn't be carrying +p anyway. No +p round will ever give a pistol, rifle wounding capability. The small gain in velocity won't provide enough of a difference in damage to matter while simultaneously recoil management is hampered.
Carrying +p+ is not the same as shooting +p+. Most people would not use it in their lifetime. All they would have to do with it would be to shoot some to verify proper functioning and accuracy in their EDC. Otherwise, practice with standard 9mm. Self defense ammo is too expensive to shoot in volume anyway.
@@marcusfreeman2512 even more an issue. You shouldn't ever carry what you haven't ever trained with. That's why I like a .40 and. 45 because training with a .40 or. 45 is the same as caring the. 40 and. 45. If I ended up needing to use it, it will be what I'm already used to from my training drills. Makes no sense to train with a weaker 9mm range round then have to rely on your ability to follow up multiple rounds of +p or +p+ 9mm when you have never trained with that recoil difference. There is a lot of muzzle flip with a 9mm +p+. More than a 45 or 40. In my opinion.
Ken, GOOD FOR YOU for being honest about your health and your physical circumstances. .45 acp, .40 S&W, 9x19mm, 10mm etc. all work. Shot Placement IS THE ONLY THING THAT HAS EVER TRULY MATTERED.
Shoot what you shoot best, period (within the FBI's recommended expansion standards and penetration standards of 12-18in ). That includes .380, 9mm, .40, and 45acp among others (although 380 just barely makes it penetration wise in most testing).
I spent more time shooting the old early aluminum frame commander 45s and officer 45s. I just shoot better with a 45 from my experience. There is neither science, nor magic. It is experience. What are you shooting and how often?
That's why after the 1986 shootout in Miami the thoracic shot with the 9mm did not stop the assailant from murdering. Which led them to adapt the larger 40 caliber. Today we find agencies like the NEW YORK State Toopers returning to 45ACP. I would think they know something about ballistics and even more about results.
@@dameinoferrall2400 ballistics are ballistics. Test them out on pigs if you have any doubts. The German military had the hottest 9mm parabellum ever for use in the schmizer. They moved away from it.
indytbird actually Donut operator did a video where the cop shot a guy 16 times with a 45 and he went down when shot in the head and was still showing vital signs. the cop now carries 9mm for more capacity
@indytbird Not sure if I caught your meaning. But figured I'd share this if you'd never heard it: th-cam.com/video/pdjcYjSsIok/w-d-xo.html Spooky story. Sometimes the bullets just never hit a vital enough area, and the guy is some kind of superhuman bullet-sponge.
I’m still a .45 ACP @ 58 years old. I just don’t understand the problem with the recoil. My Glock 21, 36, and Sig P220 have light recoil. What hurts my hand is .357 magnum or 38+P in a J-frame.
I carry both when leaving the comforts of civilization. Colt 1911 WWI remake on belt and Tisas 1911a1 9mm in shoulder rig for backup. Has been this way since the early 90's. I only replaced my older 9mm with the Tisas just recently and I love it. The very first, which I did not have long, was a 9mm Largo, and that was the one that persuaded me to get the first 9mm that I just replaced. Plus extra mags, a zippo lighter and a barlow pocket knife. Both chamberings have pros and cons, depending on the situation and where you are, and procurement of ammunition is then not limited to only one chambering. I love the .45 for stomping bad things within 25 ft., but the 9mm wins the versatility and convenience contest across the board and I've always loved its recoil impulse when plinking about. Even so, I still want the big 230gr. hardballs ready. All of this taken from real-life experience on three continents. I only use the 1911. Nothing will ever convince me to use any other, except perhaps a Browning Hi-Power.
I mostly use .22LR and .22 Magnum. .22 Magnum will go through a titanium golf driver out of a pistol at 3 yards. I could use a .38 or a 9mm if I wanted to, but I like cheap ammo and not feel like I'm shooting out quarters with every shot. I'm a veteran and don't have any issues with my hands. It's not the size the counts as you say, but the shot placement.
I have found that I tend to shoot 45 better than I do 9mm. to me it doesn't really have any more recoil, just a different type of recoil. the 45 has more of a push where the 9 has more of a snap.
Place your arthritic finger in a glass of vinegar for a couple of hours a day. 80% water 20% vinegar and after two to three weeks you will notice significant relief. The finger will bend without pain. (Toenail fungus is treated in the same way) Stay healthy.
When I get older and feable I might need to go to a lesser round too. For now, I'm 68, I'll stick to the .45. I use the W-W Ranger. It's better than any 9mm made, check yourself.
@@Airplanetyson I guess you shoot only factory ammo. I shoot weekly with my uncle who is 78 and he shoots a Kimber Custom II with my reloads of a 200gr cast LSWC at 800fps and averages 100-150 rds per session (Thank God for my Dillion 650) and still loves it.
Great video on a shopworn topic that still has some life in it! If there's one thing our 'forever wars' are demonstrating it's that the 9mm works just fine. There are plenty of folks that echo what Ken's friend said (ie shot lots of people with the 9mm and they all died just fine). I like the .45 ACP and have owned quite a few from Colt to Kimber and from HK to FN, but then again I've also had .40s, 9mms, .357s, etc. It's really always been more the archer than the arrow. It's possible that a slightly bigger bullet could have more terminal effect but Ken's probably right, if there is it's a couple percent. Ellifritz's landmark meta-study revealed very minor differences in the real world effectiveness of service-type handguns. Nowadays I'd rather have more rounds in a slightly smaller sidearm so I go with a 9mm. Although recently I picked up another .40S&W, not because I really like the caliber but because I ran across a pretty hard to find HK in that caliber. I wish it was a 9mm because I have a ton of ammo but the forty works just fine, too.
I began my Pistol Shooting with an old WWII Walther P-38 in 9mm, which I still have and Love! I later went on to shooting .45 ACP and .357 Magnum, but never gave up on the 9mm. These days, mostly what I shoot and carry is 9mm. Now I can still shoot .45 ACP and .357 Magnums, but I still prefer the 9mm.
I thought I shot lots of .45, but never enough to cause permanent damage to my hand. I guess it’s cumulative though, and I’m not quite as old as this guy, so maybe my time will come. I don’t think the recoil from 45acp is bad at all. It’s really mild compared to 10mm, .357 or .44 magnum. But again, I’m not as old, and don’t have free ammo to shoot as much as this guy. Probably a good thing for my hands and my marriage.
My first Wilson had to be 45 ACP because it just seemed right in case it was the only one I ever got. Since then they’ve all been 9mm and man it’s like cheating they shoot so soft. Paul
There something that nobody talks about with 45acp that most calibers can't do, 45acp can be fired without hearing protection in emergencies with out completely destroying your ears. Factory 45acp is sub sonic where other calibers have to be loaded very low to be.
Not yet for me 63l2 yrs old. Just ran about 100 rounds at the range with my brand spanking new Springfield XD 45 4 inch barrel. Love that discharge ain't nothing like it. (Springfield has my original in for warrant work, so I couldn't wait).
@AL From Russia handgun calibers really don't matter, just stick with what you have buy ammo and practice. There's plenty of info on TH-cam on 9mm ballistics, just search it and you'll see that you're fine with what you have.
The new 9mm "magic bullets," like all hollowpoints, expand as designed *less than half the time* in *REAL WORLD* shootings. When they don't expand, they transfer almost zero energy, over-penetrate, and do minimal damage. Even in a lab, using FBI standards and ballistic gel (which is as relevant to real world shootings as a shoe is to pudding), 230 grain 45 ACP ball rounds consistently penetrate to 12-14", stop, and transfer every ounce of energy. Under perfect conditions, in a lab, using ballistic gel, there are some 9mm bonded hollow-points that can do that. But when they *DON'T* expand perfectly, as has happened in innumerable real world shootings, that $3 high-tech 9mm hollow-point performs exactly like a $0.59 ball round. I've seen, first-hand, on the battlefield, how pathetically ineffectual 9mm FMJ is, to include glancing off of skulls and windshields. Referencing statistics of *REAL WORLD* dynamic shootings also shows that only one in three shots fired will actually connect with a human target. If I'm only going to get one or two bullets on target, I want each of them to be the most debilitating hits possible (a hunter, who will only get one shot, should understand that). 99% of people who relentlessly beat the drum of "shot placement" have never been in a real, dynamic shooting situation, and have convinced themselves that the BG is going to look like an IPSC silhouette and stand perfectly still 7 yards away. The people who mindlessly regurgitate an FBI ballistics study to justify their caliber choice have apparently not gotten the memo: The FBI is populated with liars who have no integrity and no credibility. But, hey, let me tell you about the amazing deal on this bridge I'm selling. Lt Col Jeff Cooper had every opportunity to move to modern 9mm ammo, and he only ever recommended more power (ie 10mm), not less. Thanks for the anecdotal rationalizations, but I'll stick with the well-researched and field-proven advice from the founder of Gunsite Academy. Cooper was un-corrupted by the motive to sell expensive custom pistols in 9mm.
Well 45 is a great caliber and does have more energy if its velocity is high. But 9mm wouldn't be in service with NATO militaries and most police forces if it was an ineffective caliber. There are a number of experienced gun guys like these guys or ex-Marines like Garand Thumb or the late Paul Harrell who have vouched for it as a very effective round. For better or worse, FMJ 9mm has killed a lot of people over many decades and transfers significant energy, albeit less than a hollow point does, to the intended target. Of course any FMJ round can glance off of an object at a very shallow angle and there is an increased risk of over penetration with a 25 cent FMJ 9mm. But there are a number of hollow points that can be bought for about a dollar per round that reliably expand in gel or meat targets, even after striking angled auto glass or other common barriers. There are also the non-expanding copper fluted projectiles from Lehigh Defense and others that have been extensively tested. But of course, 45 is a great caliber too.
Bill, some advice for your friend Ken, tell him to try Hyperbaric oxygen treatment for his hand. It can work really well on arthritis/rheumatism/trigger finger syndromes. You just lie in the oxygen tank for an hour for a couple of times a week reading a book. It is what all the top football players and sportsman use. Obviously ask your doctor for advice first especially if you have high blood pressure but the lower pressure HBO treatment has done wonders for everyone I have recommended it to.
My shoulders began aching on my 58th birthday probably due to playing football in my youth. I accidentally viewed The Game Changers while watching TV one rare afternoon and was convinced to try eliminating animal products from my diet. About 3- weeks later my shoulder pain was gone. I’ve slipped a few flesh-laden meals in and, yep, the pain returned. -Check it out.
Same here, I started off with .40 S&W in Berettas, then picked up some 9mm weapons, now I’ve picked up a 1911 45ACP. Love them all honestly & EDC them also.
I certainly agree that shot placement is more important than caliber. I am still a 45 guy, but I respect a skilled shooter who chooses to use a 9mm. I confess that I read a lot of Jeff Cooper back in my teenage years...
Personally I love all the calibers im not picky if it goes bang im into it. I dont understand why everyone wants a definitive of what caliber is the best the fact is whatever you shoot best for you is the best.
I personally like .45 more myself I like 9mm too and cannot deny it has gotten rly good to the point where a 9mm +p is easily as good or better than any standard .45 hollow point to actually get a good advantage over 9mm you’d have to use a .45+p or even .45 super I have both .45 and 9mm handguns and carry either one sometimes my 9mm Taurus g3c sometimes my 1911a1 commander .45 auto
Great video! I was raised on .45 ACP in the military. We converted over to the 9mm in the mid 80's and all of us Ole Salts screamed blasphemy. I love the .45 ACP but the 1911 platform has become surpassed by many other .45 platforms. I personally care a Glock 30 FS and overall it is superior to any 1911 I have carried and I have carried many different 1911's. The morden day 9mm's are much more practical for personal/ home defense. My 9mm pistols hold 15 to 20 rounds depending on mag. With one loaded mag and one on my hip I can have 40 rounds ready. That is plenty for most situations most of us will encounter in the woods or concrete jungle. I still love the .45 ACP and there is no debate that it has earned it's high place in Gun History. I personally carry it because I can shoot it just as well as an 9mm or 22 round. Great video and I appreciate both of you gentlemen honesty and integrity. on this hot issue. Semper Fi
My "go to" gun for the house defense is a .45 ACP, but I'm an older guy and thinking of going to 9mm. Thanks for these OLD HANDS for helping me "see the light".
Clint Smith said, "Shooting someone is like the doctor giving you medicine, sometimes it works right away sometimes it don't." In the caliber debate I think of Sgt. Timothy Gramins of the Skokie, Ill Police. Good thing to read up on as far as shot placement and ineffectiveness of pistol calibers.
Sgt Gramins shot a man 13 times with a 45 if I recall correctly, 9 of which independently would have been fatal. The man continued to fight until the Sgt hit him in the head. That case alone made me rethink everything I knew about handgun terminal ballistics.
@@jacobackley502 ain't that the truth. That was a helluva scary story. Had I shot the guy that many times n he still had juice I'd have wished for a bazooka or a laws rocket
My FN P35 is by far my most favorite pistol. I grew up shooting my Dad's 1911 until he took it to a gun show and came home with a Model 29 with a 4" barrel. That became his daily carry handgun. So the very next year I went to the same gun show and bought my P35. It was a 1949 vintage. So now I have a 9mm pistol that was made in the same year I was born. It has been really well tuned and shoots really well. I love the 45 ACP but since propellant technology has improved so much that the "9" is easily as effective as the "45."
I think velocity is of extreme importance in bullet expansion. Bill can confirm this to be true being an avid hunter, Shot placement is paramount over velocity. When I was reloading.45 I would try to keep the bullet moving a 1,000 fps to get as much expansion as possible and the only way I was able to do that was to drop the weight of the bullet which in turn would increase camber pressures, It was a balance game between what I could handle and what the firearm was able to handle. Thankfully we are living in the golden age of firearms and the manufacturing secs are phenomenal these days coupled with the quality of parts and fitment.
I own several 1911 pistols in 45 and just recently acquired a Springfield Hellcat in 9mm. A friend talked me into the Hellcat since I am a diehard 45 guy. I mean I really like 45 everything….45-70 , .454 Casull and 45 colt. That will never change. But when I’m looking to travel light I grab the Hellcat since it’s so sweet to carry. But to be honest , I don’t mind the recoil of my all steel 1911 at all.
Well I'm 66 now and have a mildly hot rodded P-13 for my carry that I love to shoot, BUT, someday I will get up in age and prolly need to think about going with a lighter round too so these are good points to remember. ;
.22 is the most effective round. ZERO recoil and in the hands of a good shooter is surgically accurate. (I mean any gun CAN be. But it's easier to get good with a .22)
@AL From Russia there's nothing wrong with the 9mm. If I need to carry a gun "deeply hidden" I have carried a 9mm. It's just that the very best carry ammo for a semi-auto handgun is the .45acp. Look at the data on the Winchester Ranger Ammo, the stuff that used to he called Black Talon.
@AL From Russia, 9mm ballisticly is all you need, load your guns with 147gr hollow-point ammo and it's every bit as effective as any other ammo for stopping power. The key is training, and shot placement, keep them all center mass. Practice makes perfect. I prefer 45acp, but that's just because It's what I've used for 40 years now. I think ballisticly 9mm today is equal to 45acp. I shoot a lot of both.
@AL From Russia, it's not about being "out gunned" it's, like HFVidShotz said and many others, about shot placement. If you can consistently hit a quarter at 25 yards with a .22 that's a lot better than being able to barely hit a 15in plate at 5 yards with a .45. Practice "failure drills" and practice often. Two shots to the pelvic girdle or center mass and one to the "T" box. Then penetration of heavy clothing isn't going to be much of a concern. (ETA: as stated in the video there have been advancements in powder and slug technology. So, if you are concerned about penetrating thick clothing perhaps look into 9mm +P or 9mm +P+. These loads are hotter which means they are typically traveling faster giving them more penetrating capabilities. This of course means the recoil is going to more than regular 9mm ammunition and most likely will have a noticeably bigger flash. Another thing to consider is over penetration, so having a "winter" carry ammo for when people are more likely to be wearing layers of thick clothing and having a "summer" carry ammo for when people are wearing less and thinner clothing would be a good idea.)
I've spent most of my adult life working with and around guns and have been carrying daily for .45 years. I've used handguns in some tight spots here and abroad. I mostly agree with these two "Gun Guys" on the 9mm vs. 45 thing. But the truth is that for many years the 9mm as loaded by American companies was nowhere near its full potential, and some of its reputation as a poor stopper was well-deserved. Back then if you were going to use a 9mm round for police patrol, if you wanted it to work well, you needed to use a restricted +P+ load that many agencies simply would not approve due to safety concerns. We then got guidance from the FBI that the 147 grain subsonic loads were best. They weren't ideal in tissue. The early ones were quite accurate, but would rarely expand and often penetrated through and through. We might as well have been using full metal jacket ammo. They were nothing like the 147 grain 9mm loads we have today, which are some of the best you can get. My point in bringing this up is that our preference for the .45 ACP at the time was not unfounded. In those days, just about any .45 ACP hollow point round you could buy from a major manufacturer would perform better than that maker's best 9mm load. You could, at the time, test ten different factory loads in 9mm and maybe find two that worked acceptably. The .40 S&W came along as a compromise caliber to try to get .45 ACP performance in a 9mm size gun. The later ,357 SIG showed what could be done with a good 9mm hollow point pushed fast enough to meet expansion threshold. Both of the new calibers worked great from a police standpoint. Today, the 9mm is an acceptable defense and police cartridge because it is a completely different round than it used to be. We now have projectiles that expand at lower velocities and more predictably, and manufacturers willing to load cartridges to velocity levels more like those used in Europe for years. We just call them +P here. In my view the 9mm has only become a really acceptable round for police work and self-defense since the early 2000's, and has only gotten better since then. My attendance at a law enforcement ballistics workshop presented by Federal changed my thinking on the 9mm. They set up and ran properly constructed FBI gelatin tests with products from Federal and Speer, as well as some other maker's products that worked well also, like the Winchester Ranger T rounds. I was one of those shooters who insisted that my duty and defense ammo caliber "started with a 4", but now things have changed. In retirement I will usually carry a compact 9mm, but my .40 S&W and .45 ACP guns still protect my home. And as Bill and Ken stated, bullet placement is still the most important factor.
Always interesting to read opinions counter to what Ken & Bill say....when these 2 guys probably have sent more ammo down range than all the commenters combined!
The one caliber that will put ANYONE down regardless of the situation is 357 magnum. I shot a Ruger snub 357 and it felt like 10 mules kicking at the same time. You feel the vibration in your hand for several minutes after firing. I will have 4 guns in my arsenal: Two 9mm (Beretta PX4/Sig SP 2022) , Mossberg 930 Tactical, and a Kimber 357 2" stainless.
I've always been a 45 guy always will. My sons carry 40 S&W. The 9 mm is ok , never really was a 9 mm fan at all. 45 punches a bigger hole even if it doesn't expand. What annoys men is round count 9mm guys always brag that their 9 mm holds 16 rounds compared to my 7 or 8. I think large round count in the mags gives some a " spray and pray" mentality.
I love these 'Gun Guys' videos! I'm learning a lot and you guys are addressing a lot of the gun myths that have persisted for a generation without any real proof. Keep it up! I hope you guys could do a video on your thoughts of the Browning Hi-Power compared to the 1911 .45 acp.
I've been a .45 guy for a long time. I have traded the 1911's for the Shield and M&P. Like these men, I find myself carrying a Sig 365XL more often. It's lighter and when my back is acting up it's just easier to carry.
I carry a good o'l Colt Government, single stack .45 acp. Sure - I could get two extra rounds in there with 9mm, and less recoil, but there's just something about shooting .45 that makes it a lot more fun than a "boring" caliber like 9mm. Even though I know that 9mm and .45 have roughly the same muzzle energy in comparable loads.
what more do you need when the 45 cal Glocks have a 13 round mag and one in the pipe? To me a 45 cal has more stopping power than a 9mm. And like the 9, there are many ammo manufacturers who can ramp up the 45 cal. ammunition. And if shoot that much 45 you should be very accurate.
45 ACP, mainly 45 ACP+ P is superior in terms of terminal ballistics, if the objective is to increase the damage on your target. We often find unfair comparisons on the internet using 45 acp ammunition from the 1900s design (230gr hard ball) to compare to 9mm ammunition from 2020 (bonded hollow point +P+)... As long as you use the same metrics, the 45 will always win. 9mm depends on expanding, on the other hand 45 does not ! Furthermore, 45 acp presents much broader range to accommodate different bullet weights!!
@@jase1125 I dont know what you call "scientific"... Im a Professor at University in this area... Please let me know what journal has a publication that mention otherwise!
One huge advantage of .45 is that is suppresses much better than 9MM. You can shoot full power ammo and still be subsonic. Simply can't do that with 9MM.
I'm getting up there in age and the last time I took one of my 1911's out for a spin with 230 grain HB, I found that the recoil beat the hell out of the ball of my right thumb. The joint started to get numb and pretty soon I developed a persistent flinch.
If anyone dares to tell you that old age is enjoyable...tell them to pound sand :)
Enjoy old age. Many people are denide the privledge.
Tim McNamara as young lad at age 24 I try not to take my youth for granted.
Old age beats the dirt nap
Capt. Beak most of the time.
But pound it softly; old bones are easily inured.
The barrel flash from my 1911 in 45 warms my knuckles and eases the arthritis pain better than my identical 1911 in 9mm.
Love it 🤣👍
Lol really?
Cmon man no not really lol
I find that l most effectively warm my swollen knuckles on a cold winter morning at the range by using a .50 S&W revolver with a custom special extra big cylinder gap to rest my aching joints against.
AHHH YEP. BUTTT A DOUBLE SHOT OF BOURBON DOESN'T HURT NEITHER. 😊
The FBI has done myriad studies to identify “the most effective pistol caliber.” The answer uniformly is: the one that hits a vital spot....hitting what you are shooting at out-weighs the caliber you’re shooting.
Keep that in mind when a 270 lb. athletic build guy is charging you from 10 yards away while on PCP. That vital spot becomes only half the answer.
@@elli003 and the other half is what?
Good shots on target 'bout sums up the whole equation, no?
The FBI after the Florida disaster did a lot of research, the outcome of which was a bigger round at higher velocity, the 10mm. The actual FBI shooters could shoot the heavy round 10s and manage the increased recoil and the larger framed grips. What they did not take into account when they adoped the 10mm was that the majority of the FBI agents are not shooters, but at the time were recruited lawyers and accountants, etc. They were folk that did not really practice with a firearm any more than was required to maintain the job. Therefore their proficiency and the ability to qualify degraded drastically. The FBI dropped from the 10mm to the S&W 40, a 10 mm short. Still more recoil and bigger and heavier than the 9mm. Eventually it has gone back to the 9mm, not really because of improvements in bullets, but because it is easier to shoot and maintain basic profiency. Smaller handed people, older people who are beginning to realize age and arthritis and folk who will not spend the needed amount of time to become proficient with the more dificult to handle calibers can manage the 9mm.
Before you start screaming at me, I too am an old shooter. I started with the .357 and .44 magnums. I moved to the .45acp and then later the 10mm. I was selected by the head of my agency to assist the department armorer to transition our force, about 100 folk, from whatever they were carrying at the time to an issued weapon of the Glock 20 10mm. During the transition we were able to qualify EVERY officer with a pass/fail of 90% both day and night firing. Six months later it was easy to see who practiced and who did not. No practice mean no qualification. No qualification meant desk assignement and range time till requalified, which led to a lot of officers lost temorairly from their assignments. The department later transitioned from the 10mm to the 45acp, citing cheaper ammo and lower recoil. They have again transitioned, this time to 9mm.
I had carried a 9mm at times for concealment purposes, a Browning Hi Power, which happened to be almost as big as my 1911s. The 9mm is definitely more fun to shoot. Prior to covid, much chaper. For fun I will currently shoot one of my 9mm, but the majority of the time I carry a 1911 in either .45acp or 10mm. I also agree with what Mr. Hackathorn stated, that it is where the round is placed, not what the round is, BUT I also believe in physics that the larger bullet, delivering more energy still gives an edge over the 9mm.
@@rexelliott3860 with this being said I have a 9 I bought for home defense but it holds 17 rounds which I prefer so I guess next step is ar pistol or short rifle 🤷🏽
@@elli003 got a lot of those running around where you're at? Gotta say I haven't run into a PCP fueled football player anywhere near me. Guess I'm just that lucky 99.9999%
I have two identical 1911's one is in 45 the other is in 9 mm.
9 mm is snappier but it pushes a little less, the 45 pushes harder but it snaps less, and the 45 is just a bigger heavier bullet going a little bit slower, and the nine millimeter is a lighter bullet going a little bit faster.
For my old arthritic hands the 45 is much more comfortable to shoot.
Have you tried 147 grain 9mm
@@paullytle1904 This is very true.
I agree. As you can see in my profile pic, I am holding 2 guns. 1 on each hand. One is a 9mm and the other is a .45. And I totally agree with what you've said.
I agree - it is the peak impulse of recoil that causes the most nerve damage and perception of recoil. A larger caliber with a more gradual recoil impulse can be significantly more comfortable to shoot, particularly when recoil spring tension is high enough to damp slide movement to a virtual stop prior to the point of frame contact.
Compare, for example, a 7.62x25 Tokarev in a 34 ounce CZ 52, against a .40 S&W in a 22 ounce Taurus G2C. The .30 caliber, high bore axis Tokarev is marginally controllable; the .40 caliber Taurus - eminently so, and comfortable to shoot, despite the fact that they essentially match each other in muzzle energy.
@@paullytle1904 Not yet but I have some that heavy to reload next time I get a chance to reload.
I have a.45 and .9 mm love them both
Edwin Algarin
I got a 1911 and a 357 revolver.
Honest objective cogent opinions are always appreciated because they're so rare, thank you!
I love the .45, but due to the lack of round capacity, I always defaulted to 9mm. That is, of course, until I was introduced to the Walther PPQ .45. The round capacity is there and I'll be doggone if I can't shoot it just about as fast and as accurate as my 9. That said, I'm now back to .45 for my EDC and man does it feel good. Walther for the win any day.
I have to give credit to Wilson Combat... A lot of 1911 companies would just continue to say 45 is king. WC is not afraid to evolve.
They know what sells
A round adopted in 1908 is not evolving
@Jack Benton
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. lol
Jack Benton It cam effect the average guy if other manufacturers look to a Wilson for inspiration. Sure Wilson will sell for more than the average guy will spend but a $700 9mm Wilson clone is sure to follow.
DWX
At 2:28 Ken Hackathorn says, "I've got all that .45 230gr. ball I've saved like it was Gold Sovereign's." Little did he know it would be worth more than that today.
I've been a .45 guy for over 40 years and still believe there's "no replacement for displacement." Knowing shot placement is always most important, better ammo, accuracy and comfort factor greatly. It also doesn't hurt to have 15 rounds.
True that's why I'm looking for a Para double stack 45acp 1911.
@@tatsuhirosatou5513 Remington R1 Enhanced double stack is what I'm looking for, it's basically para but polished, damn shame about Remington tho.
I might have found a replacement though, the Sar K2 45 and Sar K2 45C, check it out it looks amazing.
The "replacement for displacement" is Speed / Velocity. Learn about physics.
@@Havanorange You sir need to "learn about physics". Average out the diameter of the wound channel then calculate the cross sectional area and multiply that by the length of the wound channel. The result is the volume of matter that the round has displaced. Run the exercise for yourself and you will see that the 45 ACP is superior to the 9mm.
@@joelwarthen1135 Thanks for the laugh, I needed it. Your silly little calculations don't mean squat.
Great video! I'm a. 45acp man myself but since my shoulder injury I have switched to the 9mm for a lil lighter recoil in my hand and shoulder joints. I'm loving it more and more. I use my .45acp for home defense but carry 9mm. 😎
You know why this question will never go away? Because there are so many variables. Understand the variables in perfomance, capacity, shootability, cost, and square them against what you need and even how you feel about it. Then practice and get training. Study to show thyself approved. The humble 22 to the brain works every time! The .380 you have with you is better than the hi cap 45 you leave at home. Its about ballancing the variables. IMHO.
Really nice to get such a discussion from two, of a handful or two, of very widely acknowledged experts. I have read a number of articles by and about both of you and spoken with Bill on the phone. Could not have had a more favorable impression of Bill...a very good listener, who gave quite insightful answers and all the while came across as being surprisingly humble... especially given his accomplishments.
The gimmick is that people always have to slip in the fine print that you have to get 9mm defense ammo; that negates the cost offset. .45 ball is absolutely always going to outperform 9mm ball.
RIGHT On with the designer $$$ 9mm stuff 💥👍
I own both the 9mm and .45 and love both. I actually rotate carrying between the two. At the end of the day I still prefer the .45 pistol with Federal HST 230 grain JHP ammo. Nothing more devastating!!!
Speer gold dot, HST and G9 defense ammo are all good rounds for both 9mm and 45
@@mikethomas4628 absolutely!!!! Both will get the job done if needed!!!!👍👍
Shoot hst out of a 357sig and tell me nothing is more devestating😅
I have a colt 5 inch 45 and I love it.
My biggest issue is the price of ammo compared to 9mm.
45ACP has seen the same improvements in bullet tech as 9mm and still puts more energy into a target and does more tissue damage then a 9mm. Will stick with 45acp as long as possible. 10mm beats both hands down.
Faster bullets are more devastating than slower heavier projectiles.
@@FirearmEnthusiast Faster bullets don't mean better, its doesn't mean a thing if the bullet can't dump its engery into a target. The 7.62 bullet is slower then a 5.56 bullet but substantially more energy and at distance can still drop a target where as the 5.56 doesn't do as well. Also even worse if it doesn't tumble as desiged to it doesn't do anything to a target. Hence why the military left the M855 because of how terrible it performed. It was extremely fast moving but just zipped through
@@FirearmEnthusiast Not true. Penatration........ ball ammo and the faster is best. Slow shocks the body and more energy is released.
I shoot my .45 way better then the 9mm. Although I do shhot the 9mm very well.
I agree the 10mm is better but the price is outrageous and hard to find
I think the 9mm is good for my concealed carry out the house and my .45 for in my home because of my layout inside and out and believe that the 9mm was to miss it would penetrate threw the interior and exterior walls slightly easier putting my neighbors at risk plus if inside my home I'd only hope to have to shoot once rather that be a 45.If outside I think you never know the distance or cover if a altercation so capacity and quicker controll and shoot placement goes to the 9mm .Love them both and believe they both have a place for the right situation
Frangibles brother, frangibles
We are living in weird times, never thought I'd see the day Bill and Ken no longer carry a 45, I miss the way things use to be.
Don’t we all. And my wrist, elbow,shoulder and hand do too.
Thank you gentlemen. I'm of an age where joint pain has become a problem as well. Great to hear your revised positions on the age old debate.
No ego, no loud craprock music, no "law enforcement/special forces/military/etc." smugness, just 2 really cool and relaxed dudes talkin' guns. They MUST do an episode with Hickok45!
These 2 have forgotten more than that “Fudd” Hickok45 will ever know. Give me a break. I can’t even believe you’re mentioning him in the same sentence as these pioneers and ambassadors. They’ve “been there and done that”. What’s Hickok done? Shoots guns on TH-cam. Oh boy!
@@jeffreylc Hickok45 was a reserve sheriff's deputy for 10 years in Tennessee as well as a former professional shooter. Just so you know, guy.🙄
I just want to say, I’ve truly enjoyed all these videos! I listen to them while I work. These videos always get me back into my 1911’s! Thank you.
Man, I love these guys! When these guys talk...I listen! No BS, real shit! Thank you Mr. Wilson & Mr. Hackathorn.
They are full of shit. Promoting whatever sales.
I’m an old guy too and grew up with a deep respect for a 45 1911, in particular a Colt Combat Commander. I have tried to develop a love for the Glock 19 but it just doesn’t seem the same. I got a WC X9 about a year ago and the more I shoot it the more I like it. It feels natural in the hand and hits well for me. I may be becoming a 9mm guy too. Thank you Bill for continuing to evolve the 1911 platform.
@Russian Bot aside from h&k, it may be foreign, but it's German engineering done right
I shot a lot of 9mm I’m my life, and I was never too accurate with it. I shot a 45 for the first time and I was shocked on how accurate I was and how close my grouping was
I shoot 9mm very well I shoot 45 good too but the drop is so bad out past 20 meters
It doesnt drop much at 25 but at 50 its 5 inches low
im sure its due to the gun itself, i bet they werent the same gun eh?>
Much love & respect from Karachi Pakistan 🇵🇰
Hold the line dear American bretheren !
Same thing happened to me. I shot tons of 9mm pistols. Then one day I shot my first 1911 in 45 ace, and for whatever reason, I can hit the target much easier with that 45. I think it’s just the slower push of the 45 compared to the snap of the 9mm
I usually carry a .45, something about it just... feels easy to shoot for me, I don't know why. I like them both, they kick in different ways, but something feels more suited to my shooting style about the .45
Dont care whats said about the 45 or the 9mm. My favorite is the 45 and has been for 50 years.
Thank you both
Great video! I'm a 9mm guy for the following: quicker follow-up shots, accuracy, less recoil in a full sized pistol, and higher capacity options.
Am a 74 year old Male and the first large bore pistol I got was from a friend of mine who’s Grandfather had died and he sold me a Colt SAA with the 7.4 inch barrel for 50 dollars. When I was given the opportunity to shoot on Rocketdynes Pistol team, that My Dad was working at, when I was 15 years old, when I turned 16 I bought the Ruger automatic 22 pistol with the bull barrel and the Colt Combat Commander and had a Gunsmith put Micro sight put on it and he silver soldier the barrel to tighten it up. The Gentleman on the Pistol Team not only taught me but let me try their guns and their reloads . I was developing a Cataract in my right eye and with pistols being right handed I could use my left eye. I became an Expert with the 22 and a Sharpshooter with the 45 . I was given a K-22 S&W by my Grandfather and soon fell in love with that gun . Being raised on a farm and had chickens I took care of and a garden were I grew corn 🌽, lettuce 🥬, tomatoes 🍅, spinach , lettuce along with onions and carrots 🥕 and potatoes 🥔. Not only rabbits were everywhere but ground squirrels. I used thin copper wire to trap them and being I could get 10 cents for every tail of the ground squirrels I saved enough to buy my first 22 rifle which was a Marlin 39A and being my eyesight wasn’t that good I put a scope on it with 2-7 power and when CCI came out with the Stinger it opened up an entirely different range of effectiveness. I inherited a 03 Springfield that my Dad built and took my first Deer with it. As I grew up and was going on an Elk hunt I bought the new Remington with the 300 WSM and reloaded the 180 gr MRX . That combo has taken Elk, multiple Russian Boar 🐗 and a 700 pound Brown Bear in Alaska. I had to pass up a huge Elk in Wyoming were I had only a neck shot and bought a used Weatherby 340 and put a Carlson Stock on it with the Vortex Scope. After about 7 months I had a Cardiac arrest in early 2019 and have been recovering since then. Please excuse my Personal ramblings and I appreciate your taking the time to read what I’ve written.
But they all fall with hardball! Lol. I do still love a .45 and actually my last handgun purchase was a Springfield MC Operator in .45 and I love it. Very accurate. I did break down and bought my first 9 a couple years ago, a Storm Compact and I wouldn't hesitate to carry it. I don't have OPA to shoot so trashing my hand is not really a concern.
9mm vs .45....Someone round up the dead horses. I'll get the bat.
9mm vs weak 380 and 10mm vs weak 45! Just my opinion Brother!
@Sigkim 40 S&W is the redheaded stepchild that has to watch their own birthday party in the rain from outside on the porch.
they should have added in 10mm and 38 Super....and .357 Sig!
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final."
-Wyatt Earp
I find it interesting how everyone who tells me they carry a 9mm because of the lower recoil (referring to the recoil of the standard fmj) end up carrying a +p+ which kicks harder than my .40 and .45. and negates their argument. (recoil argument, not capacity argument)
Those people shouldn't be carrying +p anyway. No +p round will ever give a pistol, rifle wounding capability. The small gain in velocity won't provide enough of a difference in damage to matter while simultaneously recoil management is hampered.
Carrying +p+ is not the same as shooting +p+. Most people would not use it in their lifetime. All they would have to do with it would be to shoot some to verify proper functioning and accuracy in their EDC. Otherwise, practice with standard 9mm. Self defense ammo is too expensive to shoot in volume anyway.
....like the T shirt says... .45 because shooting twice is silly....
@@musicman1eanda 100% agree. There's absolutely no sense in hotrodding carry ammo. The gain is essentially nonexistent but the losses are very real.
@@marcusfreeman2512 even more an issue. You shouldn't ever carry what you haven't ever trained with. That's why I like a .40 and. 45 because training with a .40 or. 45 is the same as caring the. 40 and. 45. If I ended up needing to use it, it will be what I'm already used to from my training drills. Makes no sense to train with a weaker 9mm range round then have to rely on your ability to follow up multiple rounds of +p or +p+ 9mm when you have never trained with that recoil difference. There is a lot of muzzle flip with a 9mm +p+. More than a 45 or 40. In my opinion.
.45 is still king for me.
Ignorance is bliss 🤣
9mm is a nazi bullet. .45 is king
@@zachdawson1822 9mm predates the nazis by a few decades.
@@KinoTechUSA69 9mm was made by a German and was standard for nazi during both ww1 and ww2
@@reitairue2073 Ignorance? A bullet is bullet. Death is death.
Ken, GOOD FOR YOU for being honest about your health and your physical circumstances. .45 acp,
.40 S&W, 9x19mm, 10mm etc. all work. Shot Placement IS THE ONLY THING THAT HAS EVER TRULY MATTERED.
So you have to use 2x9mm to get the same effect good luch on a target that's moving or shooting back.
@@yfelwulf 1 45 will do the damage of 4-5 9Sillymeter rounds.
john harris
There has been much actual research (not what someone thinks is true) that shows that is not true with today’s ammo.
john harris clueless
@@bratz2 yeh the ammo today made a big diffrent compared to 50 plus years ago I like 45 tho just me I have fun with them block 36 btw lol
Shoot what you shoot best, period (within the FBI's recommended expansion standards and penetration standards of 12-18in ). That includes .380, 9mm, .40, and 45acp among others (although 380 just barely makes it penetration wise in most testing).
I spent more time shooting the old early aluminum frame commander 45s and officer 45s. I just shoot better with a 45 from my experience. There is neither science, nor magic. It is experience. What are you shooting and how often?
Shot placement is far more important than caliber. There is no substitute for accuracy, and you can not miss fast enough to win a gun fight.
its not the missing fool its the shock of the impact on a near miss .. more with a 230 grain then 115 grain .. simple h.s. math
So original. Let me write that down.
Watching these videos should be required before a person can work in a gun store.
That's why after the 1986 shootout in Miami the thoracic shot with the 9mm did not stop the assailant from murdering. Which led them to adapt the larger 40 caliber. Today we find agencies like the NEW YORK State Toopers returning to 45ACP. I would think they know something about ballistics and even more about results.
Isn't the argument that the 9mm of 1986 and of today are worlds apart and is the reason for the return, en masse, to the 9mm?
@dameinoferrall2400 to answer your question, no. The 9mm of today is in no way superior to the 9mm parabellum of the later 1930s.
@@robertcaccavalla6469
I guess it comes down to which scientists one wants to believe
@@dameinoferrall2400 ballistics are ballistics. Test them out on pigs if you have any doubts.
The German military had the hottest 9mm parabellum ever for use in the schmizer. They moved away from it.
I love .45 but 9mm so much cheaper and easier to shoot .
@Scott Murphy or talk to a trauma surgeon and see how silly it is to choose fewer rounds, harder to shoot well, and more expensive ammo. Haha
.45 is a more accurate round...the guns heavier and has less jump typically
indytbird actually Donut operator did a video where the cop shot a guy 16 times with a 45 and he went down when shot in the head and was still showing vital signs. the cop now carries 9mm for more capacity
@Frank Bonazza III I shoot 500 magnum more accurately than 22. Just can't get the follow ups as quickly 😂
@indytbird Not sure if I caught your meaning. But figured I'd share this if you'd never heard it: th-cam.com/video/pdjcYjSsIok/w-d-xo.html
Spooky story. Sometimes the bullets just never hit a vital enough area, and the guy is some kind of superhuman bullet-sponge.
I've got a Sig P-320 45, shoots like a dream. I found recently, I like the self defense, lower grain ammo for the 45. It's expensive, but less bang
The service gun of the Indiana State Police, I believe.
I’m still a .45 ACP @ 58 years old. I just don’t understand the problem with the recoil. My Glock 21, 36, and Sig P220 have light recoil. What hurts my hand is .357 magnum or 38+P in a J-frame.
I carry both when leaving the comforts of civilization. Colt 1911 WWI remake on belt and Tisas 1911a1 9mm in shoulder rig for backup. Has been this way since the early 90's. I only replaced my older 9mm with the Tisas just recently and I love it. The very first, which I did not have long, was a 9mm Largo, and that was the one that persuaded me to get the first 9mm that I just replaced. Plus extra mags, a zippo lighter and a barlow pocket knife. Both chamberings have pros and cons, depending on the situation and where you are, and procurement of ammunition is then not limited to only one chambering. I love the .45 for stomping bad things within 25 ft., but the 9mm wins the versatility and convenience contest across the board and I've always loved its recoil impulse when plinking about. Even so, I still want the big 230gr. hardballs ready. All of this taken from real-life experience on three continents. I only use the 1911. Nothing will ever convince me to use any other, except perhaps a Browning Hi-Power.
I'm still .45 ACP all day long... I shoot 9mm very well also. But I just prefer the o'l Man stopper.
I mostly use .22LR and .22 Magnum. .22 Magnum will go through a titanium golf driver out of a pistol at 3 yards. I could use a .38 or a 9mm if I wanted to, but I like cheap ammo and not feel like I'm shooting out quarters with every shot. I'm a veteran and don't have any issues with my hands. It's not the size the counts as you say, but the shot placement.
I have found that I tend to shoot 45 better than I do 9mm. to me it doesn't really have any more recoil, just a different type of recoil. the 45 has more of a push where the 9 has more of a snap.
Place your arthritic finger in a glass of vinegar for a couple of hours a day. 80% water 20% vinegar and after two to three weeks you will notice significant relief. The finger will bend without pain. (Toenail fungus is treated in the same way) Stay healthy.
Hasn't the 45 benefitted from the same improvements as the 9mm? Better bullets and better powder?
You guys are really interesting. I'm learning lots.
When I get older and feable I might need to go to a lesser round too. For now, I'm 68, I'll stick to the .45. I use the W-W Ranger. It's better than any 9mm made, check yourself.
I will stick to the 45 acp with 230 grain gold dots. To each their own but I am a 45 guy.
I use the 185 grain gold dot
When you reach 80, we’ll see if that .45 is still your choice.
@@Airplanetyson I guess you shoot only factory ammo. I shoot weekly with my uncle who is 78 and he shoots a Kimber Custom II with my reloads of a 200gr cast LSWC at 800fps and averages 100-150 rds per session (Thank God for my Dillion 650) and still loves it.
Great video on a shopworn topic that still has some life in it! If there's one thing our 'forever wars' are demonstrating it's that the 9mm works just fine. There are plenty of folks that echo what Ken's friend said (ie shot lots of people with the 9mm and they all died just fine). I like the .45 ACP and have owned quite a few from Colt to Kimber and from HK to FN, but then again I've also had .40s, 9mms, .357s, etc. It's really always been more the archer than the arrow. It's possible that a slightly bigger bullet could have more terminal effect but Ken's probably right, if there is it's a couple percent. Ellifritz's landmark meta-study revealed very minor differences in the real world effectiveness of service-type handguns. Nowadays I'd rather have more rounds in a slightly smaller sidearm so I go with a 9mm. Although recently I picked up another .40S&W, not because I really like the caliber but because I ran across a pretty hard to find HK in that caliber. I wish it was a 9mm because I have a ton of ammo but the forty works just fine, too.
I began my Pistol Shooting with an old WWII Walther P-38 in 9mm, which I still have and Love!
I later went on to shooting .45 ACP and .357 Magnum, but never gave up on the 9mm.
These days, mostly what I shoot and carry is 9mm.
Now I can still shoot .45 ACP and .357 Magnums, but I still prefer the 9mm.
I thought I shot lots of .45, but never enough to cause permanent damage to my hand. I guess it’s cumulative though, and I’m not quite as old as this guy, so maybe my time will come.
I don’t think the recoil from 45acp is bad at all. It’s really mild compared to 10mm, .357 or .44 magnum. But again, I’m not as old, and don’t have free ammo to shoot as much as this guy. Probably a good thing for my hands and my marriage.
Use what you like, either caliber will work if the shooter does his part.
My first Wilson had to be 45 ACP because it just seemed right in case it was the only one I ever got. Since then they’ve all been 9mm and man it’s like cheating they shoot so soft.
Paul
I really enjoy 9mm 1911s...... talk about easy to shoot. Really good video... Thank you!
There something that nobody talks about with 45acp that most calibers can't do, 45acp can be fired without hearing protection in emergencies with out completely destroying your ears. Factory 45acp is sub sonic where other calibers have to be loaded very low to be.
.38 special
It is subsonic...but the muzzle blast is still existent.
@@allanbranson I think that is pretty much what he said initially.
Not yet for me 63l2 yrs old. Just ran about 100 rounds at the range with my brand spanking new Springfield XD 45 4 inch barrel. Love that discharge ain't nothing like it. (Springfield has my original in for warrant work, so I couldn't wait).
Totally agree with Mr. Hackathorn, carried a 1911 45 for 20 years, now I carry a glock 9mm with 147 HST
carry loads for my EDC.
@AL From Russia handgun calibers really don't matter, just stick with what you have buy ammo and practice. There's plenty of info on TH-cam on 9mm ballistics, just search it and you'll see that you're fine with what you have.
@AL SUSPIRIA 2018 my dude, a 9mm can stop a bear. Lmao
Much love & respect from Karachi Pakistan 🇵🇰
Hold the line dear American bretheren !
The new 9mm "magic bullets," like all hollowpoints, expand as designed *less than half the time* in *REAL WORLD* shootings. When they don't expand, they transfer almost zero energy, over-penetrate, and do minimal damage. Even in a lab, using FBI standards and ballistic gel (which is as relevant to real world shootings as a shoe is to pudding), 230 grain 45 ACP ball rounds consistently penetrate to 12-14", stop, and transfer every ounce of energy. Under perfect conditions, in a lab, using ballistic gel, there are some 9mm bonded hollow-points that can do that. But when they *DON'T* expand perfectly, as has happened in innumerable real world shootings, that $3 high-tech 9mm hollow-point performs exactly like a $0.59 ball round. I've seen, first-hand, on the battlefield, how pathetically ineffectual 9mm FMJ is, to include glancing off of skulls and windshields. Referencing statistics of *REAL WORLD* dynamic shootings also shows that only one in three shots fired will actually connect with a human target. If I'm only going to get one or two bullets on target, I want each of them to be the most debilitating hits possible (a hunter, who will only get one shot, should understand that). 99% of people who relentlessly beat the drum of "shot placement" have never been in a real, dynamic shooting situation, and have convinced themselves that the BG is going to look like an IPSC silhouette and stand perfectly still 7 yards away. The people who mindlessly regurgitate an FBI ballistics study to justify their caliber choice have apparently not gotten the memo: The FBI is populated with liars who have no integrity and no credibility. But, hey, let me tell you about the amazing deal on this bridge I'm selling. Lt Col Jeff Cooper had every opportunity to move to modern 9mm ammo, and he only ever recommended more power (ie 10mm), not less. Thanks for the anecdotal rationalizations, but I'll stick with the well-researched and field-proven advice from the founder of Gunsite Academy. Cooper was un-corrupted by the motive to sell expensive custom pistols in 9mm.
Well 45 is a great caliber and does have more energy if its velocity is high. But 9mm wouldn't be in service with NATO militaries and most police forces if it was an ineffective caliber. There are a number of experienced gun guys like these guys or ex-Marines like Garand Thumb or the late Paul Harrell who have vouched for it as a very effective round. For better or worse, FMJ 9mm has killed a lot of people over many decades and transfers significant energy, albeit less than a hollow point does, to the intended target. Of course any FMJ round can glance off of an object at a very shallow angle and there is an increased risk of over penetration with a 25 cent FMJ 9mm. But there are a number of hollow points that can be bought for about a dollar per round that reliably expand in gel or meat targets, even after striking angled auto glass or other common barriers. There are also the non-expanding copper fluted projectiles from Lehigh Defense and others that have been extensively tested. But of course, 45 is a great caliber too.
@@dneel1000 Your opinion has been noted and dismissed.
@@advhawk6455 There's no reason to be disrespectful or dismissive towards another person. I understand you like 45 better, that's cool. 👍
Makes perfect sense. Thanks for a well reasoned assessment of the comparison.
Bill, some advice for your friend Ken, tell him to try Hyperbaric oxygen treatment for his hand. It can work really well on arthritis/rheumatism/trigger finger syndromes. You just lie in the oxygen tank for an hour for a couple of times a week reading a book. It is what all the top football players and sportsman use. Obviously ask your doctor for advice first especially if you have high blood pressure but the lower pressure HBO treatment has done wonders for everyone I have recommended it to.
My shoulders began aching on my 58th birthday probably due to playing football in my youth. I accidentally viewed The Game Changers while watching TV one rare afternoon and was convinced to try eliminating animal products from my diet. About 3- weeks later my shoulder pain was gone. I’ve slipped a few flesh-laden meals in and, yep, the pain returned. -Check it out.
Ken, I have the same type of trigger finger arthritis as you do, but not quite as bad. My solution was going to .38 Super.
.40 S&W guy here... and I want a 10 mm.
You need one. I have a 10mm and love it!!!
Al suspiria youre definitely fine sticking with your 9mm
I have 10mm glock 20 but my edc is my 9mm great balance of a gun u can’t go wrong what u carry as long u know how to use it beside a hi point
I have 10mm glock 20 but my edc is my 9mm great balance of a gun u can’t go wrong what u carry as long u know how to use it beside a hi point
Same here, I started off with .40 S&W in Berettas, then picked up some 9mm weapons, now I’ve picked up a 1911 45ACP. Love them all honestly & EDC them also.
I certainly agree that shot placement is more important than caliber. I am still a 45 guy, but I respect a skilled shooter who chooses to use a 9mm. I confess that I read a lot of Jeff Cooper back in my teenage years...
Rock Island's 'baby rock' is a good alternative for anyone who loves the 1911 platform, but is aging and has hand issues.
Love my 9mms. I have a few of them. I also have a S&W 686 7 shooter with a 4" barrel.
Personally I love all the calibers im not picky if it goes bang im into it. I dont understand why everyone wants a definitive of what caliber is the best the fact is whatever you shoot best for you is the best.
I personally like .45 more myself I like 9mm too and cannot deny it has gotten rly good to the point where a 9mm +p is easily as good or better than any standard .45 hollow point to actually get a good advantage over 9mm you’d have to use a .45+p or even .45 super I have both .45 and 9mm handguns and carry either one sometimes my 9mm Taurus g3c sometimes my 1911a1 commander .45 auto
Great video! I was raised on .45 ACP in the military. We converted over to the 9mm in the mid 80's and all of us Ole Salts screamed blasphemy.
I love the .45 ACP but the 1911 platform has become surpassed by many other .45 platforms. I personally care a Glock 30 FS and overall it is superior to any 1911 I have carried and I have carried many different 1911's.
The morden day 9mm's are much more practical for personal/ home defense. My 9mm pistols hold 15 to 20 rounds depending on mag. With one loaded mag and one on my hip I can have 40 rounds ready.
That is plenty for most situations most of us will encounter in the woods or concrete jungle.
I still love the .45 ACP and there is no debate that it has earned it's high place in Gun History. I personally carry it because I can shoot it just as well as an 9mm or 22 round.
Great video and I appreciate both of you gentlemen honesty and integrity. on this hot issue.
Semper Fi
My "go to" gun for the house defense is a .45 ACP, but I'm an older guy and thinking of going to 9mm. Thanks for these OLD HANDS for helping me "see the light".
Clint Smith said, "Shooting someone is like the doctor giving you medicine, sometimes it works right away sometimes it don't." In the caliber debate I think of Sgt. Timothy Gramins of the Skokie, Ill Police. Good thing to read up on as far as shot placement and ineffectiveness of pistol calibers.
Sgt Gramins shot a man 13 times with a 45 if I recall correctly, 9 of which independently would have been fatal. The man continued to fight until the Sgt hit him in the head. That case alone made me rethink everything I knew about handgun terminal ballistics.
@@jacobackley502 ain't that the truth. That was a helluva scary story. Had I shot the guy that many times n he still had juice I'd have wished for a bazooka or a laws rocket
Good to see an honest discussion.
My FN P35 is by far my most favorite pistol. I grew up shooting my Dad's 1911 until he took it to a gun show and came home with a Model 29 with a 4" barrel. That became his daily carry handgun. So the very next year I went to the same gun show and bought my P35. It was a 1949 vintage. So now I have a 9mm pistol that was made in the same year I was born. It has been really well tuned and shoots really well. I love the 45 ACP but since propellant technology has improved so much that the "9" is easily as effective as the "45."
Excellent presentation thank you for your time posting this interesting information.
Glad it was helpful!
The best caliber is the one you can hit your target with
I think velocity is of extreme importance in bullet expansion. Bill can confirm this to be true being an avid hunter, Shot placement is paramount over velocity. When I was reloading.45 I would try to keep the bullet moving a 1,000 fps to get as much expansion as possible and the only way I was able to do that was to drop the weight of the bullet which in turn would increase camber pressures, It was a balance game between what I could handle and what the firearm was able to handle. Thankfully we are living in the golden age of firearms and the manufacturing secs are phenomenal these days coupled with the quality of parts and fitment.
I have Rheumatoid Arthritis, but it hasn't reached my hands. So I continue to shoot 45 ACP and Colt.
I own several 1911 pistols in 45 and just recently acquired a Springfield Hellcat in 9mm. A friend talked me into the Hellcat since I am a diehard 45 guy. I mean I really like 45 everything….45-70 , .454 Casull and 45 colt. That will never change. But when I’m looking to travel light I grab the Hellcat since it’s so sweet to carry. But to be honest , I don’t mind the recoil of my all steel 1911 at all.
Well I'm 66 now and have a mildly hot rodded P-13 for my carry that I love to shoot, BUT, someday I will get up in age and prolly need to think about going with a lighter round too so these are good points to remember. ;
prolly? act your generation, LOL we didn't say PROLLY
@@TerraFirmaX No but its easier to type it at 3AM ;
.22 is the most effective round. ZERO recoil and in the hands of a good shooter is surgically accurate. (I mean any gun CAN be. But it's easier to get good with a .22)
Shot placement is what matters. Thank you Gentlemen.
But not all shots are perfect. Except in movies and these kind of debates.
@AL From Russia there's nothing wrong with the 9mm. If I need to carry a gun "deeply hidden" I have carried a 9mm. It's just that the very best carry ammo for a semi-auto handgun is the .45acp. Look at the data on the Winchester Ranger Ammo, the stuff that used to he called Black Talon.
@AL From Russia, 9mm ballisticly is all you need, load your guns with 147gr hollow-point ammo and it's every bit as effective as any other ammo for stopping power. The key is training, and shot placement, keep them all center mass. Practice makes perfect. I prefer 45acp, but that's just because It's what I've used for 40 years now. I think ballisticly 9mm today is equal to 45acp. I shoot a lot of both.
@AL From Russia, it's not about being "out gunned" it's, like HFVidShotz said and many others, about shot placement. If you can consistently hit a quarter at 25 yards with a .22 that's a lot better than being able to barely hit a 15in plate at 5 yards with a .45.
Practice "failure drills" and practice often. Two shots to the pelvic girdle or center mass and one to the "T" box. Then penetration of heavy clothing isn't going to be much of a concern.
(ETA: as stated in the video there have been advancements in powder and slug technology. So, if you are concerned about penetrating thick clothing perhaps look into 9mm +P or 9mm +P+. These loads are hotter which means they are typically traveling faster giving them more penetrating capabilities. This of course means the recoil is going to more than regular 9mm ammunition and most likely will have a noticeably bigger flash. Another thing to consider is over penetration, so having a "winter" carry ammo for when people are more likely to be wearing layers of thick clothing and having a "summer" carry ammo for when people are wearing less and thinner clothing would be a good idea.)
100% agree
I've spent most of my adult life working with and around guns and have been carrying daily for .45 years. I've used handguns in some tight spots here and abroad. I mostly agree with these two "Gun Guys" on the 9mm vs. 45 thing. But the truth is that for many years the 9mm as loaded by American companies was nowhere near its full potential, and some of its reputation as a poor stopper was well-deserved. Back then if you were going to use a 9mm round for police patrol, if you wanted it to work well, you needed to use a restricted +P+ load that many agencies simply would not approve due to safety concerns. We then got guidance from the FBI that the 147 grain subsonic loads were best. They weren't ideal in tissue. The early ones were quite accurate, but would rarely expand and often penetrated through and through. We might as well have been using full metal jacket ammo. They were nothing like the 147 grain 9mm loads we have today, which are some of the best you can get.
My point in bringing this up is that our preference for the .45 ACP at the time was not unfounded. In those days, just about any .45 ACP hollow point round you could buy from a major manufacturer would perform better than that maker's best 9mm load. You could, at the time, test ten different factory loads in 9mm and maybe find two that worked acceptably. The .40 S&W came along as a compromise caliber to try to get .45 ACP performance in a 9mm size gun. The later ,357 SIG showed what could be done with a good 9mm hollow point pushed fast enough to meet expansion threshold. Both of the new calibers worked great from a police standpoint.
Today, the 9mm is an acceptable defense and police cartridge because it is a completely different round than it used to be. We now have projectiles that expand at lower velocities and more predictably, and manufacturers willing to load cartridges to velocity levels more like those used in Europe for years. We just call them +P here. In my view the 9mm has only become a really acceptable round for police work and self-defense since the early 2000's, and has only gotten better since then. My attendance at a law enforcement ballistics workshop presented by Federal changed my thinking on the 9mm. They set up and ran properly constructed FBI gelatin tests with products from Federal and Speer, as well as some other maker's products that worked well also, like the Winchester Ranger T rounds.
I was one of those shooters who insisted that my duty and defense ammo caliber "started with a 4", but now things have changed. In retirement I will usually carry a compact 9mm, but my .40 S&W and .45 ACP guns still protect my home. And as Bill and Ken stated, bullet placement is still the most important factor.
Always interesting to read opinions counter to what Ken & Bill say....when these 2 guys probably have sent more ammo down range than all the commenters combined!
I'm. 65 with arthritis and my carry gun is a Glock 20 which is 10 mm!
Excellent video. Age has a way of dictating some of our decisions.
The one caliber that will put ANYONE down regardless of the situation is 357 magnum. I shot a Ruger snub 357 and it felt like 10 mules kicking at the same time. You feel the vibration in your hand for several minutes after firing. I will have 4 guns in my arsenal: Two 9mm (Beretta PX4/Sig SP 2022) , Mossberg 930 Tactical, and a Kimber 357 2" stainless.
I've always been a 45 guy always will. My sons carry 40 S&W. The 9 mm is ok , never really was a 9 mm fan at all. 45 punches a bigger hole even if it doesn't expand. What annoys men is round count 9mm guys always brag that their 9 mm holds 16 rounds compared to my 7 or 8. I think large round count in the mags gives some a " spray and pray" mentality.
Most gun fights are over in 2-3 rounds. This has been studied.
I only own 9mm pistols but it is always a treat when I get to fire off a 45 from the 1911 platform to a Glock.
I love these 'Gun Guys' videos! I'm learning a lot and you guys are addressing a lot of the gun myths that have persisted for a generation without any real proof. Keep it up! I hope you guys could do a video on your thoughts of the Browning Hi-Power compared to the 1911 .45 acp.
I've been a .45 guy for a long time. I have traded the 1911's for the Shield and M&P. Like these men, I find myself carrying a Sig 365XL more often. It's lighter and when my back is acting up it's just easier to carry.
each round is not a toy and will drop a man
I carry a good o'l Colt Government, single stack .45 acp. Sure - I could get two extra rounds in there with 9mm, and less recoil, but there's just something about shooting .45 that makes it a lot more fun than a "boring" caliber like 9mm.
Even though I know that 9mm and .45 have roughly the same muzzle energy in comparable loads.
what more do you need when the 45 cal Glocks have a 13 round mag and one in the pipe? To me a 45 cal has more stopping power than a 9mm. And like the 9, there are many ammo manufacturers who can ramp up the 45 cal. ammunition. And if shoot that much 45 you should be very accurate.
I Like my 45 ACP Glock 21 it is smooth and accurate. also, like the 9mm. as the years go by, I may switch to 22LR 😀
45 ACP, mainly 45 ACP+ P is superior in terms of terminal ballistics, if the objective is to increase the damage on your target. We often find unfair comparisons on the internet using 45 acp ammunition from the 1900s design (230gr hard ball) to compare to 9mm ammunition from 2020 (bonded hollow point +P+)... As long as you use the same metrics, the 45 will always win. 9mm depends on expanding, on the other hand 45 does not ! Furthermore, 45 acp presents much broader range to accommodate different bullet weights!!
You're an idiot
Scientific tests say otherwise.
@@jase1125 I dont know what you call "scientific"... Im a Professor at University in this area... Please let me know what journal has a publication that mention otherwise!
One huge advantage of .45 is that is suppresses much better than 9MM. You can shoot full power ammo and still be subsonic. Simply can't do that with 9MM.