MCRDSD 990308 Echo Co Platoon 2042!! We were the last of the Mohicans to receive this L.I.N.E. training before they switched over to MCMAP. I am so thankful, and absorbed it all like a sponge❤️🇺🇲🦅
In the end, take all of the most effective techniques of all arts, they will be the same. They vary only slightly, if at all. People who like Kata or forms are allowed to enjoy it, same for those who enjoy point sparring or full contact. Where everyone goes wrong is doubting the effectiveness of an art because of bias. I get so sick of these arguments as we should all be on the same side, training to be better in our realm.
that said, LINE, FM 21-150 and other US military arts are not complete arts but are intended to be well-rounded but abbreviated systems to get 18 year olds effective on the battlefield in emergency situations and for OOTW. A guy who had LINE or MCMAP in basic and AIT would probably get shithoused by a contact sport fighter of equivalent size but years in grade. That says nothing whatsoever about the quality of combatives, though they certainly are simplified though effective beginner systems.
@brooder9000 it would help you out but it takes a lot of practice. You can see a lot of these techniches are converging with other martial arts of self defense moves. The arm and wrist locks you learn in almost any Aikido or JiuJitsu system and most karate schools. Really you may just be better off going to a Dojo. You get an expert instructing you and you have practice partners. Different body types etc.
@lileichmann You do realize they are using Chinese Chin Na in this video, right? Chinese Martial Arts, as well as many other Traditional arts have their places. Where ring sports like Muay Thai and BJJ excel, Traditional arts do not. However, the same basics apply to all arts. In addition, Traditional arts do not take any rules into account, and often practice for situations not accounted for in ring sports. Traditionalists have far less ego than those who discount all other arts.
Does anyone have a copy of the Paladin Press DVD of LINE with Ron Donvito? How does it differ from the actual LINE system and is it worth picking up if you want a insight in LINE?
@scalisiwest Ill also recommend for any Former Marines who were trained in CQC Boxing [remember that 4 foot square ring lol] INSTEAD of L.I.N.E 2 [Defense vs vaious kicks and Punches] to get this DVD--easy to find online.
Must of been before 2000. I was an instructor in Line training in 1999, around 2000-01 and then taught MCMAP. They converted to mcmap because mothers of military men and women complained to their congressmen an the savagery of line (at intermediate and advanced levels the system gets more intense). MCMAP took out the direct simplicity and more "combat" element of h2h and MCMAP applied more sport methods. The opinions of the two systems varied. Just a FYI.
@@jamesnevitt3400 Army Special Forces (Green Berets) also trained in it for a while. Army later switched to its MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program). I also talked to a few SF officers about hand-to-hand combat. Some of them personally disliked LINE. Although the system is aggressive and with lethal focus, it is also complicated with required memorization of multiple steps
@sapper0154 I disagree m8..I've crosstrained with both and find MCMAP Superior to Krav... MCMAP encompasses gear which Krav didn't..last I read, MCMAP & Krav are very similar...Its how Brian Stann got his start in fighting
I got to beat down in high school after the fact I wanted to learn how to defend against multiple attackers. My personal Endeavor was one-on-one but had the crowd got jumpy things would have been serious. I looked in the military combatives everything from the Russian sambo to the Israeli Krav Maga. The Marine Corps mcmap system looks retarded. This is the system that I remember LINE. It was linear combat and it had the sole objective of closing the distance and putting the attacker on the ground. Everything was taught from a perspective of a counter ambush. Something I learned later on was made Popular by SF trainer guys like Paul vunek the urban combatives team or Tommy Moore. That was 13years ago. I think we need to go back to our roots in American combatives. World War II style Fairbairn Sykes with chin jabs and theows. On conventional Warfare comes from unconventional fighting. Surprise and overwhelming momentum. I also thought the Marines had a segment on boxing it was something to be honored. The mcmap system is glorified suicide.
@danthman114 However I wasn't referring to the trip, I was refering to the "kick" I guess more at 0:21 where he swings his leg like he's trying to mount a horse. SF Marine.
Yes I thought I stated that the technique in this video is horrific... TMA have the biggest ego of all Karate TKD etc. Did you miss the 80's and 90's movie scene? MT is not a "ring sport" but techniques from it are used in the ring and consistantly dominate and are therefore most commonly used bcuz they are "practical" and were constructed in the battlefields. That determines the difference between Martial "Art" and martial "Science". Thai has NEVER been colonized by the west for good reason...
@Sapper0154 they probably didnt do the damn technique right....than again a lot of MCMAP is pretty useless if u cant do it right and are only taught the "basics" of the techniques. There are plenty of ways (as u probably already know since u are a brown belt in MCMAP) to execute each technique. For example...the basic wrist lock...the way it is taught in the syllabus is freakin bogus and gay and will essentially not work. U know the "take the wrist and put it to ur chest and rotate."
You can't. TKD,Judo or jiu jitsu etc. would be the upper limit the government allows in very extreme situations. In fact, courts in the world rule in favor of self defence only very limited cases; using military martial arts even if not outright firearms will result in the defender being the worse criminal in many cases. Here everyone learns TKMS as there is universal draft but it is never used outside military for these reasons.
Civillians are in a totally different position,however, Only military and law enforcement are allowed to use guns even if a country allows people to possess guns. Those who use guns against robbers may get much longer jail terms than the robber since the government considers it challenging government authority(sorta treason). Of course, even using martial arts exceeding level of for example taekwondo,judo etc. will cause consequences. Running away is the best thing.
Short answer is no this is not what is used now. LINE was developed for a Marine Rifleman to KILL the enemy as fast as possible using economy of movement with as little effort as possible. We were not training to subdue an enemy, we trained to kill them in a timely manner and move on to the next target. Like all martial arts you must know the technique and use it as second nature for it to be effective. LINE depends on you not hesitating, there is no thought of should I kill the enemy there is only the objective. The problem they found was that after the initial training in boot camp many never saw it again unless they were grunts, or were going to be instructors.
I'm not so sure about the "after boot camp" statement, as my entire 2D Maintenance BN practiced LINE from 97-00. The issue I found was that the HMFIC's were afraid of us actually using it on civilians. My training instinct to this day is to kill or incapacitate the threat and move on to the next threat. I have found myself having to perform a hard stop and not following through with the db, but perform a choke hold or arm bar or other submission technique. I also think the change had to do with the powers that be not wanting us to actually kill the enemy, but rather use them for so called intell and interrogation or W/E they wanted to ad to the watered down version. This makes sense as when I cross trained for my lat move into CI, techniques changed there as well.
Come to think about it, I sent over half of my Co to instructor course just because we had the slots and it seemed appropriate due to so many pumps taking Marines all the time.
Someone help a novice out here-- this is different from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP-- "Semper Fu"), right? Because this is designed to kill, and MCMAP is not?
I came up with MCMAP. I hate MCMAP. why? because unless you are a black belt in MCMAP, you try it on anyone with a hint of how to throw a punch, you will get your ass kicked. Most martial arts take years and years of training to earn a black belt. In MCMAP, you can get a black belt in less than 1 year, maybe even 6 months. While it's a "martial art" designed for the battlefield if you have no ammo left, unless you train all the time with a moving opponent and at least a black belt, it sucks. LINE training makes MCCRAP look like you're just playing around.
MCMAP is more effective in a technical sense but still shit. LINE had the right idea but still the techniques were too complex and really not workable.
I was an instructor in Line training in 1999, around 2000-01 the converted to mcmap because mothers of military men and women complained to their congressmen an the savagery of line (at intermediate and advanced levels the system gets more intense). MCMAP was what they came out with. They took out the "combat" swift and direct leathal material and replaced it with more sport material. This happened to all the branches around the same time. Opinions varied. I did really like how MCMAP dove deeper into improvised weapons and applying combat stress into the carricilum but, imo, it's extremely limited in empty hand fighting. To much back and fourth exchanging blows in the static zone and ground submissions. But that's just my own 2 cents.
You know nothing of actual military unarmed combat. As I said ring sports are a sanctioned test of what would otherwise be a lethal set of skills. It helps to prepare for street situations. The combat stress is completely lost after you've had a couple ring fights because confidence takes over. I've seen people adrenaline dump on the way to the ring and lose terribly, but that initial fight got them over it. How would you suggest people train for street fights, adrenaline injections? Troll.
@danthman114 Black belt in anything other than Judo or BJJ is just about worthless especially traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Krav Maga is NOT practical as it is formed based on theory, Israel has NEVER been involved in close quarters combat and therefore nullifies any prac ap. It is a fancy ego art peddled off to midwestern housewives as rape prevention, things like "explode" and "ward off" are worthless. 20 years in TMA are like 2-3 in Muay Thai or BJJ. MT best striking. BJJ best grappling.
So let us know how you go about "programming combative responses" without fighting full conact? The WWII era fighting program has been disbanded and replaced several times over due to is ineffeciveness. I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps so don' talk to me about fucking "combat simulation". You tell me ring sports don't prepare you for practical applcation and then go on to so you train under "simulation". You know NOTHING of extreme stress. You want real training, join the military and deploy.
Then why Laos? I see you're into Kali, which is fab. But the Phillipines has been conquered several times... Christians, Muslims wtf ever. And if you could... reform the second sentence, as it makes zero sense. As a Marine who has trained in MCMAP and Muay Thai for 10 years, I know exactly what I'm talking about. heck out Muay Boran or Muay Chaiya, I've been studying MA since I was 6, and you can see in my vids I'm well traveled. Upload some yourself or you stfu.
MCRDSD 990308 Echo Co Platoon 2042!! We were the last of the Mohicans to receive this L.I.N.E. training before they switched over to MCMAP. I am so thankful, and absorbed it all like a sponge❤️🇺🇲🦅
In the end, take all of the most effective techniques of all arts, they will be the same. They vary only slightly, if at all. People who like Kata or forms are allowed to enjoy it, same for those who enjoy point sparring or full contact. Where everyone goes wrong is doubting the effectiveness of an art because of bias. I get so sick of these arguments as we should all be on the same side, training to be better in our realm.
that said, LINE, FM 21-150 and other US military arts are not complete arts but are intended to be well-rounded but abbreviated systems to get 18 year olds effective on the battlefield in emergency situations and for OOTW. A guy who had LINE or MCMAP in basic and AIT would probably get shithoused by a contact sport fighter of equivalent size but years in grade. That says nothing whatsoever about the quality of combatives, though they certainly are simplified though effective beginner systems.
The marine who's selling the video in paladin press is the man who created line training, so he might know what he's talking about... :)
when you get done executing this movement you will ki- cut it cut it!!
wow this brings back alot of memories for me 4real
@brooder9000 it would help you out but it takes a lot of practice. You can see a lot of these techniches are converging with other martial arts of self defense moves. The arm and wrist locks you learn in almost any Aikido or JiuJitsu system and most karate schools. Really you may just be better off going to a Dojo. You get an expert instructing you and you have practice partners. Different body types etc.
They better still teach this in MCMAP.
@lileichmann You do realize they are using Chinese Chin Na in this video, right? Chinese Martial Arts, as well as many other Traditional arts have their places. Where ring sports like Muay Thai and BJJ excel, Traditional arts do not. However, the same basics apply to all arts. In addition, Traditional arts do not take any rules into account, and often practice for situations not accounted for in ring sports. Traditionalists have far less ego than those who discount all other arts.
Matacuz i so agree with what you said maby one day rhey will learn
Does anyone have a copy of the Paladin Press DVD of LINE with Ron Donvito? How does it differ from the actual LINE system and is it worth picking up if you want a insight in LINE?
@scalisiwest
Ill also recommend for any Former Marines who were trained in CQC Boxing [remember that 4 foot square ring lol] INSTEAD of L.I.N.E 2 [Defense vs vaious kicks and Punches] to get this DVD--easy to find online.
freakin Marine Corps and the Instructors always saying "You understand that" after everything they say! lol
and GOOD TO GO lol
I'm late to the party, but the R stands for recruit and not recruiting.
Marine Corps Recruit Depot
*Como lo dijo el mismísimo Brandon Lee, una persona de este tipo al ser pesados los hace muy lentos...*
i say bring back line training, and incorporate it into mcmap
@Martial Arts Guy
Yeah, LINE had an unacceptably high injury rate. So, they went to basically a BJJ system that has very questionable combat utility.
@Martial Arts Guy
Tim Kennedy
@Martial Arts Guy
If you haven't already, checkout SOCP. We have a guy at our outfit(PMC) thats a LINE and SOCP expert.
@Martial Arts Guy
SOCP is pretty exclusively military, but Tim Kennedy has a program based on it.
when was this filmed as the marines have not used LINE combat system since 1998 since then they have used MCMAP
Must of been before 2000. I was an instructor in Line training in 1999, around 2000-01 and then taught MCMAP. They converted to mcmap because mothers of military men and women complained to their congressmen an the savagery of line (at intermediate and advanced levels the system gets more intense). MCMAP took out the direct simplicity and more "combat" element of h2h and MCMAP applied more sport methods. The opinions of the two systems varied. Just a FYI.
SCD 1075 That sucks balls. The Mrine Corps Should still teach line training. L.i.n.e training is simple and effective.
@@jamesnevitt3400 Army Special Forces (Green Berets) also trained in it for a while. Army later switched to its MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program).
I also talked to a few SF officers about hand-to-hand combat. Some of them personally disliked LINE. Although the system is aggressive and with lethal focus, it is also complicated with required memorization of multiple steps
@sapper0154 I disagree m8..I've crosstrained with both and find MCMAP Superior to Krav... MCMAP encompasses gear which Krav didn't..last I read, MCMAP & Krav are very similar...Its how Brian Stann got his start in fighting
I got to beat down in high school after the fact I wanted to learn how to defend against multiple attackers. My personal Endeavor was one-on-one but had the crowd got jumpy things would have been serious. I looked in the military combatives everything from the Russian sambo to the Israeli Krav Maga. The Marine Corps mcmap system looks retarded. This is the system that I remember LINE. It was linear combat and it had the sole objective of closing the distance and putting the attacker on the ground. Everything was taught from a perspective of a counter ambush. Something I learned later on was made Popular by SF trainer guys like Paul vunek the urban combatives team or Tommy Moore. That was 13years ago. I think we need to go back to our roots in American combatives. World War II style Fairbairn Sykes with chin jabs and theows. On conventional Warfare comes from unconventional fighting. Surprise and overwhelming momentum. I also thought the Marines had a segment on boxing it was something to be honored. The mcmap system is glorified suicide.
@danthman114 However I wasn't referring to the trip, I was refering to the "kick" I guess more at 0:21 where he swings his leg like he's trying to mount a horse. SF Marine.
Yes I thought I stated that the technique in this video is horrific... TMA have the biggest ego of all Karate TKD etc. Did you miss the 80's and 90's movie scene? MT is not a "ring sport" but techniques from it are used in the ring and consistantly dominate and are therefore most commonly used bcuz they are "practical" and were constructed in the battlefields. That determines the difference between Martial "Art" and martial "Science". Thai has NEVER been colonized by the west for good reason...
@Sapper0154 they probably didnt do the damn technique right....than again a lot of MCMAP is pretty useless if u cant do it right and are only taught the "basics" of the techniques. There are plenty of ways (as u probably already know since u are a brown belt in MCMAP) to execute each technique. For example...the basic wrist lock...the way it is taught in the syllabus is freakin bogus and gay and will essentially not work. U know the "take the wrist and put it to ur chest and rotate."
Intresant
You can't. TKD,Judo or jiu jitsu etc. would be the upper limit the government allows in very extreme situations. In fact, courts in the world rule in favor of self defence only very limited cases; using military martial arts even if not outright firearms will result in the defender being the worse criminal in many cases. Here everyone learns TKMS as there is universal draft but it is never used outside military for these reasons.
lol second most lethal martial art right next to krav maga which is the number one most deadliest
S3CR3TL3V3LZ GG NO RE
Jacob McTurnipFace
In all fairness their armed forces motto if pretty fucking boss.
"Never Again" ...so I guess you're right.
dream on krav is WW 2 Brit at the conception. This fact brought to you by fluentfighting.com
Civillians are in a totally different position,however, Only military and law enforcement are allowed to use guns even if a country allows people to possess guns. Those who use guns against robbers may get much longer jail terms than the robber since the government considers it challenging government authority(sorta treason). Of course, even using martial arts exceeding level of for example taekwondo,judo etc. will cause consequences. Running away is the best thing.
it depends what state you live in
Short answer is no this is not what is used now. LINE was developed for a Marine Rifleman to KILL the enemy as fast as possible using economy of movement with as little effort as possible. We were not training to subdue an enemy, we trained to kill them in a timely manner and move on to the next target. Like all martial arts you must know the technique and use it as second nature for it to be effective. LINE depends on you not hesitating, there is no thought of should I kill the enemy there is only the objective. The problem they found was that after the initial training in boot camp many never saw it again unless they were grunts, or were going to be instructors.
I'm not so sure about the "after boot camp" statement, as my entire 2D Maintenance BN practiced LINE from 97-00. The issue I found was that the HMFIC's were afraid of us actually using it on civilians. My training instinct to this day is to kill or incapacitate the threat and move on to the next threat. I have found myself having to perform a hard stop and not following through with the db, but perform a choke hold or arm bar or other submission technique.
I also think the change had to do with the powers that be not wanting us to actually kill the enemy, but rather use them for so called intell and interrogation or W/E they wanted to ad to the watered down version. This makes sense as when I cross trained for my lat move into CI, techniques changed there as well.
Come to think about it, I sent over half of my Co to instructor course just because we had the slots and it seemed appropriate due to so many pumps taking Marines all the time.
Using military martial arts can also cause serious trouble, if i remember correctly. Upper limit for a civillian would be TKD,Kung Fu,or Karate.
Looks a bit like SCARS or Kung Fu San Soo.
Someone help a novice out here-- this is different from the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP-- "Semper Fu"), right? Because this is designed to kill, and MCMAP is not?
This is what I learned in the early 90's. It's ok, I took krav maga as well and learned mcmap from some newer Marines.
LINE all finishing moves are to kill.
I came up with MCMAP. I hate MCMAP. why? because unless you are a black belt in MCMAP, you try it on anyone with a hint of how to throw a punch, you will get your ass kicked. Most martial arts take years and years of training to earn a black belt. In MCMAP, you can get a black belt in less than 1 year, maybe even 6 months. While it's a "martial art" designed for the battlefield if you have no ammo left, unless you train all the time with a moving opponent and at least a black belt, it sucks. LINE training makes MCCRAP look like you're just playing around.
MCMAP is more effective in a technical sense but still shit. LINE had the right idea but still the techniques were too complex and really not workable.
I was an instructor in Line training in 1999, around 2000-01 the converted to mcmap because mothers of military men and women complained to their congressmen an the savagery of line (at intermediate and advanced levels the system gets more intense). MCMAP was what they came out with. They took out the "combat" swift and direct leathal material and replaced it with more sport material. This happened to all the branches around the same time. Opinions varied. I did really like how MCMAP dove deeper into improvised weapons and applying combat stress into the carricilum but, imo, it's extremely limited in empty hand fighting. To much back and fourth exchanging blows in the static zone and ground submissions. But that's just my own 2 cents.
1:39
This works on people who know nothing about fighting
This works better if your opponent knows martial arts ya dingus
You know nothing of actual military unarmed combat. As I said ring sports are a sanctioned test of what would otherwise be a lethal set of skills. It helps to prepare for street situations. The combat stress is completely lost after you've had a couple ring fights because confidence takes over. I've seen people adrenaline dump on the way to the ring and lose terribly, but that initial fight got them over it. How would you suggest people train for street fights, adrenaline injections? Troll.
@danthman114 Black belt in anything other than Judo or BJJ is just about worthless especially traditional Chinese Martial Arts. Krav Maga is NOT practical as it is formed based on theory, Israel has NEVER been involved in close quarters combat and therefore nullifies any prac ap. It is a fancy ego art peddled off to midwestern housewives as rape prevention, things like "explode" and "ward off" are worthless. 20 years in TMA are like 2-3 in Muay Thai or BJJ. MT best striking. BJJ best grappling.
Using such skills may result in serious problems with law.Running away and calling police is the only way.
yut
So let us know how you go about "programming combative responses" without fighting full conact? The WWII era fighting program has been disbanded and replaced several times over due to is ineffeciveness. I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps so don' talk to me about fucking "combat simulation". You tell me ring sports don't prepare you for practical applcation and then go on to so you train under "simulation". You know NOTHING of extreme stress. You want real training, join the military and deploy.
ه
Then why Laos? I see you're into Kali, which is fab. But the Phillipines has been conquered several times... Christians, Muslims wtf ever. And if you could... reform the second sentence, as it makes zero sense. As a Marine who has trained in MCMAP and Muay Thai for 10 years, I know exactly what I'm talking about. heck out Muay Boran or Muay Chaiya, I've been studying MA since I was 6, and you can see in my vids I'm well traveled. Upload some yourself or you stfu.