Western parents don't know how to bring up their children
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ม.ค. 2014
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Why are there so many Chinese maths and music prodigies? Because Chinese mothers believe schoolwork and music practice come first, that an A-minus is a bad grade, that sleepovers, TV and computer games should never be allowed and that the only activities their children should be permitted to do are ones in which they can eventually win a medal -- and that medal must be gold.
These methods certainly seem to get results, so perhaps western parents should start being more pushy with their children. But is it defensible to cajole and bully one's offspring to success? Isn't it better to be raising happy, rounded individuals rather than burnt-out brainboxes? Who's right and who's wrong?
In this debate from 2011, Amy Chua, author of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, takes on Justine Roberts, co-founder of Mumsnet, the phenomenally successful parenting website.
The modern elitist parent is more concerned about their own self-esteem issues rather than that of their children. Modern elitist parents are more worried about opinions of others about themselves.
Dr Spock case closed.....
@Andrew Waugh I grew up poor white with both a mother and father and single motherhood is very common in the middle class. Just because they might not make as many babies does not make them better parents.
Single mothers are part of a cultural more, it is acceptable now to be a single mother in Western countries. But that being said, middle class economics do not make better children, it just makes more money earned and more money distributed to the poor.
You want to fix the poor? Change the cultural norm of single parenthood. Make it a stigma again. Then enforce the stigma across all levels of society.
The first speaker was spot on
I know im asking the wrong place but does any of you know of a method to log back into an instagram account..?
I was dumb lost the account password. I would love any tricks you can offer me
@Axl Fabian instablaster :)
I disagree with the idea that practice doesnt aid creativity. Practice builds intuition and speed, which are highly central to creativity.
you are neurologically correct
Repetition build skill.
Skills take work and time to master, and use will hone your technique.
Also [speaking as writer and editor], the more you practice, and the _better_ you practice* (that is, correcting your mistakes as you go), the less mental effort it takes to create, and the more brainroom you have available for the actual creative process, because it's not being used by processes that should be automatic. Frex, as an editor, I can always spot writers who don't have an automatic command of grammar -- they struggle to translate thought into story in large part because they have trouble getting the layout of their words to sound right. Conversely when grammar is automatic (that is, a well-practiced skill) it gets out of the way and the writing happens a lot easier.
There, in a nutshell, is the value of rote learning (which is just a fancy way to say "practice"): it trains and automates your brain's basic machinery so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you want to build a cart.
* Practice doesn't make perfect. _Perfect_ practice makes perfect."
-- Charley Lau
@@Reziac you also learn not to be so damned verbose
@@TJ-kk5zf Touché :D
Kids coming from non-abusive families who hate their parents is such a western thing.
Never in my life have I’ve been in a conversation with my friends of how much we hate our parents. If anything, it’s a sign of immaturity.
It's fun to judge people we don't know, whose culture we don't understand, isn't it?
Although glorifying your parents is no better, I'd say. They're just human after all. Sometimes they do shitty things and we don't owe them our existence because we didn't have a say in it in the first place. But I am shocked by how badly people treat their parents in old age. The neglect poor old people must feel.
@lygophile you know exactly what he is saying and I agree with him.
define non-abusive.
When life is rather easy when tend to seek problems that aren’t there.
We used to ask our kids what they like to eat and where they like to go. But no more. We were so pissed off with their rude attitude with us (parents). Now we always offer them with two choices; eat your meal or stay hungry. Yes, we find the eastern parenting works better than western. :D
I don't belive in picky eaters
I work as a nanny and my observation is that western kids are spoilt rotten simply because they are way too served and waited on. In most middle-class households there are two parents, a cleaner and a nanny to cater to the kids' every need and whim. If all the household chores are done by the cleaner (housekeeper) the kids will not be bothered or indeed asked to pick up their toys, put away their things or help with the washing up/laundry/food preparation/sweeping up leaves in the backyard etc...because it is the cleaner's job. She is paid to do those things. If the nanny entertains them, they won't bother to come up with their own ideas of how to stave off boredom. Western kids are simply useless until they are big enough to move out of the parental house and forced to work for themselves. They just take and take and take and give nothing in return.
Some parents don't bother to discipline their kids because they don't spend enough time with their kids to be annoyed by their undisciplined behaviour. They leave it up to the teachers, the nanny or boarding school to try and instil some kind of discipline into them.
Another problem is that loads of people view discipline as abuse. Discipline is not abuse, and it will not do any psychological harm to kids. On the contrary. It is character building. Unfortunately some parents even condemn shouting at their kids (even when the occasion calls for it), believing that it is something terrible and the little darlings might suffer nightmares from it. Nobody has died from being shouted at, as far as I am concerned, or from getting a paternal slap when simply no other method works anymore. There are certain kids with whom nothing else works in a certain situation but to give them a good hiding. Kids of olden days got it every now and then and yet grew up to be healthy, normal human beings who love and respect their parents. (i am talking about the occasional, much-needed paternal slap, not the mindless beating without a good reason) If you just try to slap your own kid today, people will call social services and the police, and brand you a bad parent!
noopysma it is physically abusive
noopysma so what? That doesn't mean it's the right way to parent. I was spanked and I don't spank my daughter. She is fine, very polite and respectful
Arabella Sky 100% I agree with you.
I agree with you Arabella. Watch animals, they are not above giving unruly offspring a swipe with a paw or a butt with the head when it is called for.
Middle class families cannot afford nannies or maids. You are confusing the 1% with the middle class. But your observations about such families are very true. Their kids are going to grow up to be terrible people.
7:42 "I am a proud strict Mom". Note the noun, "Mom", not a friend... not a buddy but a Mom, a parent!! Many parents try to be their kids buddy, which is absolutely THE worst mistake a parent can make.
It has to be a balance. Indeed, you shouldn't be there buddy however you shouldn't be some sort of tyrannical dictator. You should be the leader however approachable, too.
@L B True. A parent who doesn't teach their children hates them. True friends bring each other up not pull them down.
Subject of what factors contribute to good parenting is "mental masturbation"
Hitler supposedly had a great mother and the Tutsi's and Hutus annihilated each other
@@shanli2693
You don`t hate your child if you want to be your child`s friend instead of his parent, you just don`t appreciate yourself enough! Parents teach by example not by preaching.
Of the Eastern parenting is so good, then why aren’t those countries flourishing and beating the west. China is poor and South Korea suffer from high unemployment and depressed youth. While in Japan no one is having kids.
Anyway, a balance is good. Don’t be your kids friend, but also allow them to be individuals.
I do not agree with the title of your show. I live in Southeast Asia and travelled all over .The kids unpropper behavior is nowadays everywhere. Inclusive China. The parents everywhere do not know how to educate the kids !!
Really?
I don't agree with you.
Children should be forced to be creative, as in, do a variety but not forced what that variety is unless they don't pick for themselves. Parenting has everything to do with getting kids involved with cooking, chores, etc and giving them time to fool about once it's been earned. Duty and play in balance but it all takes time and effort, it's not about any style. Be as involved in chores as their recreation. Lead by example, and promote stimulus. It's really hard work and taxing but not complicated and it's supremely rewarding
The idea that children of Tiger mum's are risk averse is ridiculous. Can you imagine (as many native born Americans cannot) a greater risk than leaving your country, to a new land where you may not speak the native language, will likely have an accent and be pre-judged for it (despite your abilities) and for many, food/diet that looks entirely dissimilar both in taste and religious ethic (many East Indians had never tasted meat nor had any ethical room for this upon their arrival). What if it doesn't work out? You have left everything in the old country and turning back when you have no money seemed hardly an option if you were lucky enough to be able to come to America. That is what has been left out of this entire debate. These children of these first-generation immigrant families are driven rarely by pressure, but rather a tremendous gratitude to their parents and communities at large that sacrificed much of their own personal short-term happiness for their children's long term boon. Ask a child of Chinese American or Indian-American immigrant parents how many times they went to Disneyland. Or even a vacation. More times than not, it will be a very different story than with a classic American family. Every cent was saved for their child's university. Ask how many of these kids if they had a large bash of a party for graduating highschool. Tell that to an Indian parent, they would reply, "so what?" That's a given-- now what are you actually going to do with your life? Where will you be doing your Master's Degree? I agree 100% with Amy. When you set the bar high, you instill self-respect in your child to leap over the bar with confidence. Set it low and you essentially tell the child you don't believe much in them. When you are young, you think you want immediate happiness. When you grow up, you realise you want achievement, stability and meaning. It's no surprise that despite probably having the strictest parents, Amy was the only panelist who said she adores her parents and actually wants to spend time with them. She exudes gratitude to them and loves them. I think the children of many immigrant parents feel the same way as she. We don't dislike our parents. We are in awe of their sacrifices for us, even when we couldn't understand their motivation when we were younger. If all these kids raised with Western parents are having such fulfilling happy childhoods with less strict parents, why is the idea of disliking your parents so prevalent as several of the panelists outline? I am deeply grateful for my parent's tiger approach even though I can't say I was at the time. And there is a misconception that Tiger parenting means the child doesn't derive independence. In fact, you are expected to perform and direct yourself. Many of these immigrant parent themselves went to boarding schools where their academic excellence had to be self-directed. Again, short term pain for long term gain. Tiger parents are not narcissists. Their primary focus is not for their kid to always like them or to be their friend. It's to be their parent-to teach them right from wrong for a successful life, both economically and to be a socially graceful and respectful person. Your kid already has friends. Chinese and Indian children experience racism and all kinds of common experiences to other non-white groups. But, does America experience many Chinese and Indian families on social assistance in adult life? Personal responsibility for the outcome of your future is paramount growing up. You want it? You better work hard to earn it.
no it's the kids that she is talking about, since they are being shown only one path to get up in life they don't take risks, particularly entrepreneurial risks, in favour of presumably medical work. In japan salarymen were the goal and similarly there were the same upbringing forms and when they couldn't all get work as salarymen they didn't form their own work, they often gained serious psychological issues.
Japan is in a homogenous society so there are different variables compared to the foreign born and raised Japanese. The immigrant family and their first generation foreign born children have the advantage of adopting and assimilating some or all of its culture.
We never had a family holiday (something my parents now regret). I had piano & violin lessons. I didn’t have any designer, or even expensive clothes before I earned my own money...which I saved for a mortgage & didn’t spend on designer clothes! I had collected an eclectic library of good literature by the time I was 16. I never had a television in my room.
I’m English from poor, working class, council house ancestors. My parents were determined that I would have as much choice & opportunity in life as they could afford me. They weren’t particularly strict but I was terrified of disappointing them. Last year my parents (now in their 80’s & needing a little help) came to live with my family & we welcomed them. My Mum is now my best friend but as a child she was always my “Mother”...
I think that they did a good job of raising me. I’ve had a great life!
I wish that we had experienced family holidays!
No one on here has mentioned the interference of government in the parenting process. A lot of children are being taught, in schools mind you, that the parent cannot discipline or scold their child.These children are being taught that if they are being disruptive in a class or not succeeding that there must be something wrong at home, then turn and question the child over a period of time til the child says things that they want to hear. Not saying that there is not abuse, I am saying that these things are keeping parents afraid to raise their children the way they feel is right. If their way is different from what authorities are saying is right they lose their child, or are taught the governments way of raising kids leaving the parents feeling that they are not good enough to raise their own children, and giving the children a way out not to listen to the parent by using the authority of the Child protection agencies to do what they want and become worse off which in turn is blamed on the parents. Parenting, I feel is a chess game of you against the authorities, most times you will lose your parenting abilities to them and other times you will win just enough to parent your child but now you are being carefully scrutinized for every decision by someone who generally does not know you, your child, or your situation and you are forced to do what that particular person feels is right. Parents now a days are in a lose-lose situation.
Yes, Valarie Wolfe. From the destruction of 2-parent households to the replacement of feelings for facts in government-run schools to the War on Drugs. If I didn't know better, I'd say our government's been fighting a war against her own people for decades.
@@harrymills2770 This point is not new but sadly, age old and appears in the Bible as well "Your children are not your children, your wife is not your wife," etc. Every once in a while societies try to claim more power over their subjects. I've noticed this tyrannical overreach in my society as well and try to fight it however I can. I certainly don't want to raise children in a society that has compulsory education.
I have worked with young children for many years as well as being a parent myself and this is what I have learned: I agree that it is a balance between kindness and firmness. It is always a dance between who you are and who that child happens to be. There is no magic formula, however if you are willing and able to spend time with your child they will show you and you can learn from them too. You can be firm and still be fair and respectful, you are the final say in important matters, but give them choices in things that aren't as important to their well being. Parenting can be very hard work and certainly some children are harder to raise then others, you do your best and then it is up to them.
a good balance is very much needed
The.law.child.abuse.leave
Them.alone.they.will.from
Social.civics.right..and.wrong.autitude
There are phases in parenthood that smart/ intelligent parents are aware of.. In Indian culture, it is said that as todlers children should be loaded with affection, when children grow older 4-14 years they should be deciplined yet motivated with affection.. 14-20 they should be befriended and mentored. If parents follow this principle, then parents dont need to worry about the choices their kids will make when left alone
interesting plan
That sounds not good. That sounds more like breeding princes and princesses.
By 14 yrs or so, if your child doesn't self-censor and control themselves, it's too late to teach them. But if you laid the foundation, your child probably DOES become more of a friend, because they're adult enough.
In traditional aboriginal Australia children are given enormous unconditional affection through many caregivers and little discipline until about age 7. Then they are given responsibility and disciplined expected to behave within societal norms. Love is constant but becomes more conditional with maturation.
Yes, as an Indian it was more like 4 - 8 years for my family.
Once you want kids or have kids, your kids future IS IN FACT IN YOUR HANDS!
Part of the problem in the US, in my opinion, is there are far too many nosy busybodies trying to tell people how to raise their kids. Those same people seem to think that telling your kids "NO" qualifies as child abuse, and that you have to tell kids that "everyone is a winner" and hand out participation trophies to avoid hurting their feelings. We need to go back to good old fashioned 1950's and earlier parenting, and tell the busybodies where to stick it.
It's horrible that British parents would attack teachers. I have a friend who told me that is one of the reasons they moved to Hong Kong. He is a teacher himself and he saw teachers being beat up for giving some students some discipline.
Calvin Chu- I don't know about HK but Mainland China has plenty of examples of discipline issues and there have been recent high profile incidents of students' attacking teachers.
The British parents who attack teachers are a minority, hardly representative of 65 million people.
In Hong Kong it's unheard of. China, maybe, there're billions of people in China. And in reality I think parents need to spend more time with their kids but this modern lifestyle is making it hard. There isn't much violent in Hong Kong but in general parents are over worked and kids are being neglected.
I’m Hong Konger in 50s, Confucius teaching is a culture how one should behave, respect your elderly is a social norm to beat your teachers up no matter how wrong they are is not be accepted.
Time has changed and comes with the western thoughts of equality to all in the education system in my view they are spoiled and freedom without discipline has caused violence against rule of law called civil disobedience in fact riots in our society.
Which one is better? Many of my teachers are still surviving and our relationship turns from teachers and students to be good friends, we have gatherings few times in a year. The teachers just said: It was easy to be your teacher in your time, and it’s getting harder as time goes they are getting more rebellious!
Seems everyone is talking about how to become the best and successful, non of the speakers didn’t talk about moral ethics which is the key ... waste of time to talk further ...
Thanks, glad I didn’t waste my time. Seems like personal bullshit that’s not logical.
Agreed. Clarity of values, and how to deliver them are paramount. All hopefully, without damaging spirit and productivity of the children.
One of my medical school professors used to give hilarious lectures talking about his family life. He was especially proud of his extraordinarily bright and succesful kids. Once he said: My colleagues complain to me how their kids struggle at school, have no competence in math or in science whatsoever. That’s because they married a pair of great legs.
So, be careful whom you marry because that’s what you’ll be raising.
i want a lady who knows how to raise the thing that matters ;)
Oof, that's a presumptuous diss towards those poor wives.
I agree. I am somewhat old fashioned when it comes to social mores towards relationships and sexuality, a lady six years older to me who had lost count of the number of men she had slept with approached me. I had to refuse -- I did not envision any future with her and shuddered to think the kind of values she would pass on to our daughter, if we had one.
@@Napoleon4778 Interesting viewpoint. What values would those be?
This gets really terrifying when you have step kids!
Mrs. Chua, earning your self-esteem is absolutely right. Thank you for this statement.
True love means deciding for your kids PROVIDED it is good for them. Too many parents negotiate with their kids and treat them as equals, they are NOT equals!.
New Thought it is thru. They are not equals. They are your children and you have responsibility to raise them.
Children mirror the society in which they grow. I did, and I'm quite sure most do.
Every time I see a mom pushing a baby's stroller, with an accompanying toddler or two hanging on, whilst busy focusing on her i-device, I"m reminded that soon enough her offspring will ignore her in quite the same way. And that's just for starters.
We don't "fix" our children without fixing ourselves and the society in which we live. Because the little darlings do no grow up inside a sterile bubble.
One of my favourite all time quotes is such a simple thing. We do not raise children. We raise adults.
And we would do quite well indeed to guide them through their childhoods allowing them to actually have one, with well organized markers of their growth and evolution - instead of bouncing all over the place, flinging age-inappropriate confusion at them, and then infantalizing them when our "theories" don't work.
It is one thing to be a child-friendly adult. It is quite another to be a child-serving one, as if they are the true Master, and the relationship becomes reversed.
A fair-minded adult exercises authority as a matter of course. It is not rocket science. Not so very long ago it was a common thing. Failed children call into account the adult society around them.
When grown men dress like 12 year-olds, play child games upon devices with the true frenzy of the addicted, or bow down to the oppressive tyranny of female man-despising so common today, children are the worse for it.
So there you have it. The greatest thing missing in the lives of children today are actual competent adults.
And kids do need adults. Because that is one thing they aren't. Adult.
How to raise a reasonably well-behaved, polite, competent, educated free thinking adult? Be one yourself, before you take on the job.
In the time of my young adulthood, I saw many people my age grow up real fast, once they became a parent.
They understood the nature of that transition in their life.
Being raised both in Russia and in USA, I can generalize and compare the two types of kids:
1) Russians are more disciplined, very respectful towards adults, spend more time doing homework although spend less time at school, generally dont have tiger parents (i dont think ive seen any) although parents financially support their kids well into even their 30's. Very few kids get jobs before theyre 20. Problems between kids are generally solved between the kids themselves and adults never involve themselves. Most kids are shy, but there is very strong grouping. Classes try to stay as groups and usually dont single out others. (for example, a class of 2010 would always hang out with only each other and act as a group wherever they go, and hanging out with another class is frowned upon). Every kid grows up being a part of this group, and the school system reinforces strong social bondage for every class group
2) US kids are very opinionated and have an opinion and a wish to express it everywhere they go which makes them "creative", they have more self-esteem when interacting with other kids and some can be seem as very arrogant, many crave infinite attention and recognition, some have tiger parents although most kids are expected to be on their own by the time theyre 18. Many problems between kids in USA are solved through a 3rd party: the school or the parents. Alot of kids seem to have some type of ADHD, and kids are very independent from one another and dont seem to function as a group and many are singled out based on attractiveness/coolness/etc. Most kids grow up never belonging to any strong group, and cross-group interaction is very common
+Artyom Arty Russia is as poor as Mexico,the US is rich... :)
:) if you say so..
no look at any factual website it is true but no keep your head in the sand!, usa is poor
Artyom Arty
No.
US Kids are simply DUMB!😂😂😂
@@mrclarkson3812 Why do you think money is the most important thing?
I really wish my mother and step father was more strict with me, in particular my mother. I barely did my homework and even though I was scolded for it, my mother never really made me faced any harsh consequences for it. My childhood consisted of playing outside or sitting indoors watching movies or playing video games if the weather wasn't good enough to be outdoors. Mother enrolled me in gymnastics and guitar lessons but she let me quit both just after some week because I said I didn't like it. I was rarely ever encouraged to do anything, only scolded for failing or not doing things myself, and the older I got the more freedom I had which, lead me to do a lot of stupid things and make really bad decision. I was given no direction in life, no motive, no skills or anything and now I'm in my mid to late 20's still trying to piece together whatever I can to make it through life.
So speaking from my own experiences I'd say that letting your children do what they want without consequences is wrong, it might make them smile or stop crying then and there, but it accounts to absolutely nothing in the long term.
I sincerely hope you make it well in life, son.
Western parents used to know how to bring up their children but our culture, along with traditional family, has been debased.
unfortunately very true
We inherited a form of child-rearing, which, for good or ill, was what created persistent, cross-generational patterns. I think the '60s generation finally turned its back on "Because I said so!" but 50 years later, still haven't figured out what to replace it with.
clarry kitten agree 1000%
You can lay the blame for that squarely at the feminists door for that. One of feminism's stated goals was and is the destruction of marriage and the nuclear family. *quotes from influential feminist writers:
"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage. " -- Robin Morgan.
"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." -- Dr. Mary Jo Bane.
"It is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men... All of history must be re-written in terms of oppression of women." - The Declaration of Feminism 1971.
"The nuclear family must be destroyed… Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." Linda Gordon.
"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." Sheila Cronin, leader of the feminist organization NOW.
“Therefore, real equality for women demands not only the death of capitalism and all systems of private property, but the corresponding eradication of the state-enforced bourgeois monogamous family, the mechanism that perpetuates oppression.” “Draft Radical Women Manifesto: Theory, Program and Structure.”
"The care of children ...is infinitely better left to the best trained practitioners of both sexes who have chosen it as a vocation...[This] would further undermine family structure while contributing to the freedom of women." -- Kate Millet.
"How will the family unit be destroyed? ... the demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare."-- Roxanne Dunbar.
Correct.
My parents ALWAYS showed us who was Boss and we didn't dare step over the line. Now, in the days of Modern Psychology, the kids show the parents who's Boss and the parents cower away as if they're afraid. I work with children everyday, not as a teacher but as a Therapist. I am shocked to the core what these kids get away with. Bishop Sheen talked about this as well. He said the parents have all read a book by the author Lettem B. Brats! Each generation gets worse, when will people wake up and realize they are training their children to be selfish, egotistical, self entitled monsters.
Everything Theodore Dalrymple says on this video is true, whether you like it or not.
Thank you feminists thank you MARXISTS anti family scientists.
Frank Furedi:
"You can't use anecdote to prove your point. Now allow me to prove my point using anecdote."
Just watched this and i immediately came to the same conclusion.
A spiteful mutant if i ever saw one...
Dutton ?
@@MrBeaach Yupp, he definitely got that term right. It should get into common usage.
At what point do anecdotes stop being anecdotes and become an observable fact?
I love listening to Theodore Damrymple!
I frequently argue with my wife about this very subject. I feel the worst thing for your child is to a lot of TV watching. Reading, exploring, anything creative. .. and most importantly, being around wise older people. Grand parents can be much more effective at imparting knowledge than parents. Unfortunately many are walled in at del Boca Vista retirement communities and rarely see their grandchildren. Lol
Very good point , they are all retiring in foreign countries, hanging at bars swimming pool Thailand restaurants and having a conversation with me. I always try to learn from old wise people with experience.
Jenni Russel rocks the moderatorship. Actually follows the arguments, reminds us of questions, and keeps it fun the whole time.
Parents in the West have been swept away by this movement of extreme humanism. They don't want to do anything 'bad' or 'mean' or 'say the wrong thing' the 'wrong way'. Some of that is good, too much of it takes the substance out of relationships and interactions and send children the signal that they can set their own tunes instead of following the prepared material.
Children, like puppies, need to be trained (socialised) - otherwise they will become impossible.
As Jordan Peterson wisely said: never let your children do anything which will make you dislike them.
Great moderator.
Fantastic discussion in the form of a debate.
Points well scored on each side, though I fall closer to the side in favor of the motion.
Saying no and meaning it and never going back on your word when making a promise keeping that promise not do anything for a quiet life helps children suceed
Patricia C Worked for me and made me think before I spoke. Love from Australia 🇦🇺
I was already getting really annoyed with the comments, when Amy said "all cultures don't know how to bring up their children". THANK YOU, Amy.
How COULD parents know how to raise children in a world that is so drastically different from the one they grew up in? (to say nothing of the fundamental problems with the nature of the question itself, but IQ squared always screws up the 'question')
If anything, the problem with most western parents is that they don't spend enough time with their kids, because our culture places all these other demands on people. However this is also part of our changing economic and technological life.
I agree with Amy and the doctor most of the time. At an early age, children need parents to be parents, not Mr Yes buddy. I don't like the helicopter parents who are all over their children and being over-protective. I find that to be a big issue for East Asian parents generally. I often feel that Asian American family has a good balance of East and West. Often time the East Asian parents living in US are westernized in a certain extend but pass on that academic dedication and hard work to their kids. Most EA parents have their kids start an instrument, usually piano, and it's good for them. Some stopped when they got older but some went on to be great musicians. So I think it is really finding a balance and we can't say Amy's way is the best or the other way is wrong, but we need to strike a balance for ourselves and for different kids. I find this discussion to be very interesting.
This event video should be retitled: "To tiger-parent or not?"
Surprised that "Western" seems to reflect only Britain, France, and the USA in this debate. If they had included child rearing reports from Germany, Italy, Spain, Eastern European countries, and Central & South America, this might have been a more fulfilling debate about parenting in "the West".
@Cray Fishe Debatable. How is Spain not included? Why does Italy only "scrape" in? Why do you exclude Eastern Europe and Central and South America? You must have authoritative reasons for this conclusion.
@Cray Fishe This might help
Depends. They may be equating "Western" with what used to be called "Christendom" This is common, and not historically wrong.
I could be wrong but I believe Germany is softer on kids than the USA. It's illegal to hit kids there the last time I checked
So you want 197 nations to be all represented???
Both sides had a proclivity to utilise the anecdotal rather than the factual.
Empirical evidence proves the most efficacious outcome for children is for children not to experience divorce.
Money is just an excuse for selfish people in the modern world.
My parents never praised my natural intelligence or talents, but the effort I put into my work. I remember getting a 19 on a test (we were on the French 0-20 scale), and my father looked at the result and asked me, "Are you satisfied with that? I know, and you know it too, that with a little effort you could have gotten a 20. Why would you be happy with a 19 when you know that 20 is easily within your grasp?" They were strict and had expectations of us, but showed full faith in our abilities and demanded we do our best, but all the demands and expectations were also counterbalanced by love and tenderness. The other thing I see that I find disturbing is that parents want to be their childrens' friend. No, you're not their friend; you're their parent. It's something totally different.
I never had the inclination to get the top grade at some point, and I remember my father trying the same trick but I just said honestly that I was okay with less. He didn't try anything else for some reason, and so I dragged my way through upper level courses with no study skills or focus. Parents have many jobs, many of which many are willing to absolve themselves of.
It is very very difficulty for a single parent to bring children up on their own sadly
This Frank Furedi just trots out one strawman after another, very low resolution presentation. Parenting is the hardest job you'll ever have NOT in terms of cerebral requirements, but in terms of love, care, patience, worry, responsibility, accountability, and its 24 hour permanence. Could see Theodore Dalrymple losing the will to live at some of Frank's bluster.
4:45 yums, did you get the pop corn?
It takes 7 years to train as a doctor and none to be a parent..both very important roles
Mental health issues are borderline ignored in the asian world, whether that’s asian American society or China or Japan etc. Depression is rife because of the inability to meet expectations and it’s brushed under the rug.
My oldest son went to a government local high school and he came home and told us that the kids are very rough ...and we met the teacher , concerning about his grades ..the teacher said my son probably would only get 2 Bs a few Cs and a couple of D in the GCSE next year. We were very disappointed .
Then we were fortunately found a good private Christian school, so we transferred him there.....and after just two years he got 10 A and one B.
So it just shows you if your kid is in a good environment they can learn better......the school and the parents need to agree to be more strict while they are in school....and not to be disturbing others from learning .
th-cam.com/video/oq410ZoXJac/w-d-xo.html
So being around 18 years of your life happy is more important than around 50 years happy well that's interesting.
My question is who is taking these surveys that the British lady is talking about? Are they western studies of Asian society? that makes a significant difference.
I raised 2 children- a boy & a girl. They are five yrs apart. I didn't take them out to a restaurant until age 3 (& then only those which had toys & a place for families) and only if I was sure they had enough sleep, pre-going out. Really. I would not subject other to my kids- partly from what I'd observed.
Both kids are amazing students & people now. I still implement this rule
Cheers
I love listening to these debates. Well done!
Yes, your true identity will come out when you become a parent. Because, you are no longer living for yourself, you brought a precious life into this world, lead and show them a better future. I will be on my grand kids case in the future, too!
46 years married to my Chinese wife. I am caucasian American. I was a secondary school teacher for 31 years in Florida. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my beliefs on the rigors if Asian schooling is though overall high academic standards have their merit, I detect the cause of pressuring all Asian students to such academic achievement comes from lack of recognition of individuality and too much cultural grouping. Also, since the end of World War 2 the destruction suffered by the Asian countries have caused Asians to live for materialism. Not everyone is academic at such egalitarian expectations.
Anyone who let's their 5 year old play Angry Birds disqualifies herself as a parenting expert!
HomeschoolDad that's stupid
I have 5 children ranging from 17yrs and 2yr old and they play computer games but it’s balanced with academic work and life skills and they are all doing well at there age groups
Agreed. I would even limit their Facebook usage to Facebook messaging.
+HomeschoolDad And someone who uses let's improperly should not be a home educator. It should be "lets" as in allow, but allow should be used instead of lets.
+HomeschoolDad, Parents who give Angry Bird game to their kids should be locked up for good. Hahahaha! Kidding. But I can't help hating the Angry Bird game. Brrrr. :P
Self respect vs Self esteem; reinforcing on (Self respect) would be an Exceptional contribution to society. Thank you very much.
My first comment would be It is none of our business how parents raise children. I was difficult child and my parents had little control over me. Luckily, I turned out better than they ever hoped. I am happy and successful in my chosen profession and lead a good life.
If you could raise my deceased parents they would die all over again knowing how well i turned out through no effort on their part. It was never their. They did their level best. They just never understood ME.
A very insightful debate. We need to work hard / Our parents want us to work hard to get get ahead in life. On the other hand, when it comes to learning to play music, do parents need to restrict their kids to playing the piano or violin because someone like Amy Chua decided these 2 are the most difficult instruments to learn? I know 2 people who got good marks in practically every subject in school except gym. Practically the ideal student according to Amy Chua. However, their parents allowed them to take up trumpet for band practice. The no TV rule didn't need to be enforced because the family didn't have 1 at home.
I picked up the trumpet because I wanted to. I practiced a lot because I wanted to get better. In our home, playing an instrument was a choice of the child, and my folks made sacrifices to make it happen. The rest was up to me.
If the primary goal is to prepare children for adulthood, then this cannot be used to justify coercing children to perform trivial tasks to the detriment of their health. Mastering the piano is a worthwhile endeavour, but not at the cost of psychological illness.
Eight years on and the educational system is still appalling in the UK. You can thank the Tories for that.
In UK this is partly a class thing; a working class child from a poor or feral background is brought up differently and has to cope with a different home environment than middle class or rich children. Personally I hate this PC world; adults should take priority over kids who can be so cute yet also proper little swines at times !
"Learning by rote" is what you need to be trained to do to be able to play Shakespeare. (Children who don't learn it will never appear in a play, or produce a great video for that matter.)
P. S. You can keep your "entrepreneurs."
You can see she never grew up like 85% of Brits on a Council estate
1:08:50 Nailed it. School can't discipline, in half cases parents reacted violently...oh my gosh. And the ladies telling us about the state of how public schools are now. It's the bad environment. It seems like nobody wants to be a tiger parent but for the Asian and immigrants, they had to push their kids to have a better life. There is a social problem, it's not just parenting, it is a social problem at large where students, teenagers are bringing weapons to school. However, parents do have responsibility to be role model, respect authority. If the parents is not going to respect the teachers and the school, the kids won't.
I agree that many US parents are too indulgent and spoil their kids, but I don't think the opposite, bullying them into obedience, is a good alternative. There must be a healthy medium someplace. I'd rather *not* bully my kid and let her have a happy life than bully her even if I knew it would make her a Nobel prize winner. (By "bullying," I mean something that really *is* extreme, not reasonable measures like "No video games until you finish your homework.") I can't resist adding that maybe we shouldn't emulate Asian parents when it comes to killing babies because they are girls, sending kids to work in sweatshops, etc. Yes, these aren't the same people the debate is talking about, but it's still worth mentioning that maybe we shouldn't laud Asian parents as a whole too hard.
Just to clear one thing, not all Asian parents kill their girl babies. It's because of the "One Child Only" policy from China to curb population growth that made some Chinese parents abandon their girl babies, which is awful.
I find it often that some people see all Asian as Chinese. No. Please don't. We don't call British, European or think all European are British.
I know not all Chinese do this, but many do. BTW I know not all Asians are Chinese. I've been around the block a few times.
Sarah Trachtenberg: Courage, Serenity and Wisdom.
Dalrymple made probably the best advice.
Teach children to have self respect, not self esteem.
Self esteem such as is often taught by giving every child a trophy regardless of thier performance is hollow. It does not produce competent people who can take care of themselves and possibly even help others too. Nor does it teach personal accountability.
The audio synch is off on this.
To the moderator. You found you never had a friend.
Interesting debate. I was surprised by the vote though :-)
OMG...
Theodore Dalrymple...
&
Amy Chua...
In the same room....🤣
Fantastic....
My wife and I have 7 sons ,and our children's ages 27,25,22,21,19,and IVF twins 7 years old...........................We have steered our children hard work,good choices is what we taught.....Know where you are ,where you want to be,and how you will get there!!!!!!!!!
Western parents doesn't teach their children a sense of responsibility. Their responsibility to their country. Their responsibility to their community. Their responsibility as a student. Their responsibility as a friend. Their responsibility as an elder sibling or as a younger sibling(because there is a major difference between the two). Their responsibility as a child to their parents. Their responsibility to their selves and most of all their responsibility to God. They are more on Me, Myself and I. I mean, how can a child talk back to their parents and how can a parent allow it?
Theodore was quite correct. If you were born in the 50s you wouldn’t hear other children using, for example, the ‘f’ word. Only once and that was after a few drinks , did I hear my late father use it, and by then I was in my 30s. I remember being shocked , it was something my father didn’t do , but other people did. Like most aspect of contemporary life there is apparently a cache in dipping into the crass and the vulgar, before popping back to a more civilized life. You can see/hear it nightly on TV and children love tv. Do I ever use the word - yes, but only when talking to myself. Nobody has ever heard me say it, especially not my late father.
And they just changed the rules so that swearing will be allowed before 2100 now.
I think the western parenting problem can be summarised as, and in fact is; too much of the maternal, not enough of the paternal.
what was the initial motion ?
the price of is $22.88 on amazon.com.
Why no Asian Beethoven or Chopin or jazz musician who can compose hit songs? Never heard of an Asian rock star. They can copy. They can't improvise or write hit songs.
Persistence is key....
I was told off for marching my sons up a hill...
So I 'switched gears'...
The next morning at 3/4 up..
I kneeled down and we revolved..
And we 3 looking down the hill...
I said unto them...
'Look how far you have come'...
They then spinned...
And I then had to run after them..
Up that hill...😇
Perhaps we should begin with the question 'for what purpose are Western parents bringing up their children?" To pay national debts? To be hyper productive for exploitative elites? To have a meaningless life of perpetually unsatisfying consumption? To be 'great'? at what? For what? To invade countries?
The way that we bring up our children is a reflection of the possibly futures that we perceive.
This tiger mum is a lawyer and invested in legalo-statist structures and therefore dependent for her livelihood on the state and it's apparatuses. She assumes that those systems will be there for her child and creates a child for that system (a clever, pushy disciplined, dedicated lawyer). So she is very sure of what the requirements are and acts accordingly. The same goes for the doctor the Kensington doctor.
A couple of jobless parents in Wisconsin on the other hand have no investment in that structure, so the way that they bring up the child is different and since there is no possibility for them to be part of the statist structures, then they don't care, perhaps being an unstructured rogue is a better survival mechanism.
Both the tiger mum and the doctor are heavily invested in the 'traditional' hierarchy structures. The debate has nothing to do with parenting, it is a plea to maintain those structures by engineering kids that will also invest in them. It is really an expression of fear that the structures might be overwhelmed and undermined by a chaotic disorder of non hierarchical structures that care no longer..aka the poor and perhaps soon the debt surfs.
great response!
aristochat3 I understand and evento agree. but what should se do? estamos and lough?
eat and lough?
aristochat3 Wait, why don't jobless Wisconsin parents have an investment in the system? Why is there no possibility of them being part of the "statist system" (aka society)?
Maybe reformulate your hypothesis by first removing the baseless claims, and then we'll take it seriously
+Jarful of Love Baseless claims? I think there is an excellent point in there.
with regard to the latest video democracy is not always the best form of government, please make it available in my country, Malaysia. Really appreciate it if you can update the video asap.
10% of Headmasters have been attacked by Mothers?! In America, we have our own horrible statistics. But, Insure wasn’t expecting that from Britain. It’s all just so said.
Dalrymple's responses 1:12:23 and 1:24:54 need further exploration.
Another, maybe critically important point at 1:17:30, "self respect is earned and other-regarding".
Host: Can we keep it quiet for the closing speeches?
Frank walking to the mic: I want some respect..
Wait a sec, man, didn't you say you have to earn it, LOL
Professor James J. Heckman's Research on early childhood education, appears to be what the moderator was citing.
I'm with an Asian guy and if he wanted to bully my children I would have none of that. I think that both of us feel like school is important, but neither of us are going to make our children miserable over 'Straight As'.
***** - Amy Chua wrote the 'The battle hymn of the Tiger Mom' and she was born in Champagne, IL, USA. What the hell does being 'westernized' have to do with a legacy that is inherited from parents and culture? My husband was born in Canada and is, as we joke, 'the FOBbiest western born ever', he was raised by parents, and all his older siblings were born in East Asia (he's Chinese and Vietnamese) and was raised in a largely Vietnamese/Chinese community in Toronto, Ontario. He speaks fluent Cantonese, still eats with a bowl of rice and main dishes in the middle with chopsticks every night. He doesn't wear his shoes in the house, and he got straight A's in high school.
***** - I assure you if this didn't apply to him in some way, I wouldn't have mentioned it. If he was an Asian guy adopted by white parents, for example...
Dear all, does 'mumsnet' belongs to our teachers, who often consider their students as their kids. Kind regards, Ming
We're all short sighted when it comes to our children? Really? It certainly wasn't like that in the 50s and 60s when I was in school. Come home and complain about what the teacher did to you and the first question you're parents would ask you would be Well, what did you do? My parents never did homework with me either. When I passed the 11+ my mother said to me, well, you have your chance now, it's up too you, I will not be coming after you to do your homework all the time, it is your responsibility.
Socrates, in the Apology: There are two ways to come out on top. The harder one is to make yourself as excellent as possible. The easier one is to destroy everyone else.
Which do we encounter the most? Which do your children encounter? They encounter people who want to trounce them, by undermining them -- not by improving themselves. It is this phenomenon, of pernicious competitiveness, that leads to great concern with self-esteem.
Let me just guess, the first speaker, the Asian mother. I would bet 1 million that she is a Chinese that has migrated to Singapore. Just how many years and where did she live in Mainland China?
Only Dalrymple briefly touched on the important issue that many children are now being raised by single mothers with no father to provide stability, the masculine perspective and to be an authority figure.
And a healthy number of familial adults from both sides.
As long as there have been wars there have been single mothers raising boys to be good men. Don't assume that all men are good fathers which, I feel, is also what that comment implies.
According to psychologist KURT LEWIN's Boy Scout summer camp experiment in 1945, on 3 different leader ship ( which I equate to parenting ) styles
# 1 - Laissez Faire- French for "Do nothing" - Which kids don't like it
# 2 - Autocratic/ Over controlling - Kids HATE IT - As would any healthy person!
# 3 - DEMOCRATIC - KIDS LOVE IT !
From that & closely observing my own two young kids I carried out a few micro experiments to see how they reacted ( & given the choices were numerically likely to fail, was prepared to back off, as necessary ) - It didn't take me long to obtain clear results from the change in my kids behaviour for me to concluded that not only was Lewin right but that it seems very probable that we are born "hard wired" to be both DEMOCRATIC & SOCIABLE! The problem with that is if we have abusive parents/relatives/teachers/etc then this is likely to bring the child into conflict with them as the child eventually feels forced to stand up for itself & express it's unhappiness as best they can. I don't know about elsewhere but in the UK this unnecessary conflict is labelled as the "terrible 2s" where most unaware parents will escalate a minor
disagreement into a battle of wills that results in the over controlling parent escalating an often quite unnecessary situation to a level where they eventually end up crushing the child's spirit & probably setting them up with repressed anger for the rest of their lives. Another contributing factor to such problems is that as the parent has lived longer in their dysfunctional society they are likely to be more screwed up than the child who not having lived that long is more healthy than their parent ! - But I doubt many adult-children are capable of controlling their negative emotions long enough to engage their cortex to consider if they are over reacting let alone consider the consequences of the long term damage they are likely to cause including labelling the kid as a "problem child"( which is the parent "hitting the easy button" ), trotting them off to the local "trick cyclist" who instantly buys into the mother's labelling ( as it fits too easily with the dubious THEORY / false ideology ) & thus they gang up to show the kid the "error of their ways" & if the ( not realising the gravity of what is @ stake ) make the mistake of standing up to this more refined but more dangerous form over control they are likely to be prescribed RITALIN, prolonged excessive use of which causes the brain to swell up against the inside of their skull & cause PERMANENT brain damage ! - Hardly progress beyond the middle ages when they only bled the kid to keep them quiet !
THE child psychologist ALICE MILLER stated that 90% of our species are dysfunctional because of authoritarian - abusive- toxic parenting The symptoms that result from that cause @ one end of the continuum, people who take nicotine-alcohol-drugs to medicate their emotional pain to @ the other end the "great" dictators of the 20th century Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot ( It is no random coincidence that they were all abused children who's pathological defence mechanism was to become psychopaths e.g. shut down emotionally & seek power to protect themselves) Unfortunately these dictators obtained such power as to allow them to re-enact their child hood traumas-dramas on the world stage leading to World War / Holocaust - Genocide / deliberate famine / etc
While I feel sorry for what happened to them as kids clearly, @ the VERY least psychopaths should NEVER EVER be given power - & clearly we have yet to learn that lesson ! BTW - ALICE MILLER has written over a dozen books on this topic & a good starting point is "For Your Own Good: The Roots of Violence in Child-Rearing "
As the twig is bent, so is the tree inclined.
These "experts" miss the most important question; that of children being very different in their psychological framing. You cannot teach or treat all children in the same way. They all speak about children as one homogenous group. This is a huge mistake and the cause of most of the suffering that many children suffer. No one here talks about how to go about discerning these differences and how to respectively respond to the child.
As a CRIPPLE, I don't apply to this debate, except that I would be a stain to western perfection, so they would need to " help me" by putting me away as if I'm just a nonperson.
As a cripple, I'm definitely not a person. Western ideology is just frighteningly hard core.
The idea that western world knows human rights is like saying north Korea is a beacon of freedom.
I have seen very young children helping with the chores and clean up..There are those who try to bring up children that are responsible and caring. We should acknowledge them as well.
Bring your child up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
Go to Jehovah's Witnesses. 😇
I'm Nigerian-American, and I would raise my children very similarly to the way she raised hers. They might hate me or not like me initially, but when they become financially secure, living in their gorgeous houses, I will go to them to apologize then. I'm sure they'll forgive me after realizing how much I invested in their education and career success. I'm literarily going to breed them to get into Ivies. Cramming camps during summer, tutors, private schools, the whole shabang. Can't wait to become an awesome dad! :-)
Blackwiz but will money,houses and petty materialism make them happy?
.
well...money does make a person's life less stressful than a person living in poverty.
ismelljello It definitely will help. Money may not buy joy, but poverty definitely will not. Try living in poverty, not knowing where the next meal will come, or not being able to pay the bills every month and tell me how happy you will feel. They will be raised with a strong culture of love for family and love for God, and will be instilled a strong work ethic to excel academically and financially
Blackwiz Easier said than done.
The different issues MOSTLY depends on the socioeconomic class of the family. Like those who put their kids on best Kindergarten waiting lists are only those in the .00000000000001% of population. Not a good argument for a serious debate.
Education ... Just look at the results as a civilisation ... Is the world today peaceful? Which countries, continents have more issues? What issues?
42:05 Killed it
Why the violin? Why not electric guitar, synthesizers, or saxophone? So much more satisfying when you are a beginner for most people.
The right balance of structured and unstructured activities. Kids need to play out of sight of mommy and daddy once in a while, but not to Lord of the Flies extent. Also, disciplining without anger. The kid is still good. The action was bad.
Also, probably, do away with the public school system.
yikes
I think the debate missed the mark. The question isn't which parenting style is better, the question is why have the western school systems abdicated their role as enforcing authority and discipline and forced the parents to do it, leaving the kids who's parents don't adapt to this new reality to the wayside. Ask anyone who is 50-60 or above if they did home work because their parents or their teachers made them do it.
Injecting the parent's role in this is in my opinion a pseudo debate, as the heart of the problem is not the parents but the school system becoming more and more laissez-faire. Ironically the system of today was created to create a more equal society, but it has the opposite effect. At least they become more creative and fulfilled individuals, or so they claim (I'm not convinced).
Finally you can't really argue against the motion, because it's a statistical fact that Asians is one of the most successful demographics in the US. Which parenting style is better depends on what you want to achieve, and how you measure success. There is also flexibility in any parenting style you learn towards, but by any objective measure i forward that Asians are winning.
Children need to grow into adults that benefit society, true, but they don't have to be ambitious overachievers to do so. The 'pushed' vs. 'left alone' dichotomy omits the middle ground, the balance, as well as the unique qualities of each child. Amy discovered those differences when she raised her own daughters, though it's not entirely clear she learned empathy from the experience. This is what ultimately bothers me about Amy's so-called philosophy: she can't separate her own heavy emphasis on status and achievement from the meaningful and worthwhile paths of exploration, trial and error, and risk that may suit most kids and 'grow' them into good, adjusted, well balanced people. Sure, foster good grades and teach them learn comport themselves civilly and responsibly, but don't force them into molds as their search for meaning and calling is for them to decide, certainly when they get older. That said, I agree that western parents in general have let the pendulum of permissiveness swing too far from structure. But Amy forbade play, not realizing that it builds social and problem solving skills, not to mention neural networks that can't be so well formed later in life, when the adult who was raised in a severe home decides to "play" in attempt to fill a void. I've had Asian-American college students who are unhappy, exhausted, and yet not ready to cast off the yoke of high expectation and withholding of unconditional love imposed by their parents. Is that the price to pay for "success"? I'm not convinced.
Who won the debate? Those were a lot of numbers to crunch in the last three seconds of the video.