Being a person raised with two moms in the early 90's when that was unheard of , & now being an adult , in my personal experience i can say a child needs to be raised by a mother & a father. The nuclear (mother & father) family is pivotal . This doesn't mean i lacked any love or nurturing , but i missed out on what a father bring to a table. Love that this conversation is being had regardless of someone's stance on it.
Fair comment and I don't want to pry but I am guessing that you were the product of a previous relationship of your biological mum, who later ended up with another woman? Not the result of any scientific intervention like a sperm doner and artificial insemination? You don't have to answer.
Totally agreed, having both, a father and a mother, is ideal. But in real life, just like you described, things are often not ideal. I grew up in a divorced family with a father who never gave a damn for my existence, so I definitely feel a huge part was missing. Far from ideal for sure, different from your situation yet similar in this sense.
I like what Jordan and David said about the ideal: “ We all fall short of the ideal.” At some level, we all have to learn to compensate for some deficiencies. So, the point here is not to condemn anyone, but to learn and make it work in a healthy and successful way at the society level.
@@flora5398 It might work well for Dave Rubin. He is very well off and the child is probably blessed, but the average gay relationship can be quite volatile and hedonustic. When every gay couple feels entitled and demands renting a womb, the female body becomes a commodity and many will become groomed and exploited.
On the breast feeding and intelligence point: Dave said he has two freezers for breast milk because they’ve done their research but it may not be just the breast milk nutrients alone that causes the increased IQ points but also the nurturing/closeness that occurs during breast feeding.
I still cannot live at peace with the fact that we've reduced women and men to sperm donors/ egg donors/ pregnancy carriers/ breast milk makers... With all due respect to what Dave said I wonder if he would have the "luxury" to choose a surrogate mother from a variety of women if no money was involved. In fact, very few countries allow paid surragacy and even in the permissive, highly egalitarian Scandinavian countries it's illegal. We will never know the truth about how it affects children because all academic research is biased to prove that gay parents are just as good as a mother and father. That said, I appreciate these honest people, Jordan and Dave, who discuss these tough issues in a sincere way.
You are a hypocrite..you either support or don't.. when you don't agree with any of what Dave said ,you simply don't appreciate the conversation and its ok. Why are you confusing people with your stance ?
Personally speaking (as a gay man), I would never intentionally deprive a child of their mother. The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. And even though my mother was a traumatised crazy person, I’m still great full I had a mother.
"The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. " Mmmmmh, no it isn't. Just take a look at how the richer mothers would give their child to the nurse and barely take care of them. It makes no difference to have a mother or not.
I agree, my mother was crazy to put it mildly, but the fact some straight couples are crazy is a total non sequitur. I am not going to be a gay dad, I ask what I can do for a child, not what a child can do for me. So no pets or kids for me. I am not convinced a gay couple is worse than, for the sake of example, a single mom. But the question needs to be answered with evidence, not by loud activists.
It simply doesn't seem right. Glad this couple has the resources to do it, but why go through so many hoops only to bring children to the world without mothers? They've had to hire so many surrogate mothers: egg donors, the surrogates themselves, breastmilk donors, night nurses etc., yet there is still no real mother to have a mother-child relationship with. It's a sad state of affairs. Adopting would have been better.
@@AMan-xy3lx taking away a baby from a mother? They are already bonding in a very early stage of the pregnancy, the body is fully prepared for the baby like the breasts for example, i would rather die than give my child away
They mentioned that there's a connection that a child has with their biological parent which is hard to describe. But then they didn't extend that to the biological mother. You can't erase the fact that those kids will, in reality, have a biological parent out there, in the world, that they are connected to biologically, but have no contact with. I believe that matters Edit: Just to clarify, there's a contradiction here, which is that biological relatedness is so important that a gay couple should pursue this way of having kids. But at the same time, the biological relatedness of the resulting child to the biological parent that won't be in their life is regarded as not important. That's the point. Either it's important, or it's not. If it is, then you're taking the child away from a parent. If it's not, then why pursue this? Why not just adopt?
Also the breastfeeding thing. The reason why it's effective might have to do more with the connection with the mother, than with the substance of breast milk. So having the milk from the bottle might not work as well.
That’s what I was thinking… Just my thoughts, but I don’t believe any child would be like “yes, this is a great idea…let’s be born in this way.” Just because he and his partner CAN do all of this doesn’t necessarily mean they SHOULD do this and that it will turn out well
@@iaintwonderwoman5720 there is a reason we don't let children have that kind of power, it creates a generation of gender confused weirdos who want to lop off their boobs.
How a bsolutely WONDERFUL to listen to these men talk about something so difficult without arguing and becoming angry and bitter. This is awesome . Love both of these men.
@@AleksandarIvanov69 It's only a contradiction if you take the words he used very literally. Obviously when he said "...in your life who is more important than you are", he meant in relation to your *perspective* of your life. You even kinda supported this idea by saying you have to reach a point in wellness (maturity) to care for someone else's wellness. And besides, the quote was really talking about maturity - not importance. Yes you are the most important figure in your life, but your perspective on what's most important is the primary determining factor for being a mature person.
@@AleksandarIvanov69 There's no contradiction. Their life is more important than yours = if it comes down to it, you will lay down your life for theirs. Sure, only a fool does so when it isn't needed. But in the end, the statement that you have to be well is false. It's possible for you to be well to do so, but it isn't necessary.
What a lovely thing to say! And I'm happy to agree. Just wanted to thank you for doing what many don't....for actually stating the compliment and happy comment. 🌻🌱
Children don't like shifting primary caregivers...I can attest to that. I've been a nanny in many different types of households. One thing in common, the kids all had behavioral issues. Well, except one family where the mom was working from home and they knew she was there for them. My heart breaks for kids who see mommy leave for a job that she doesn't actually need.
Indeed! I've seen countless children negatively impacted in this way (maternal deprivation, attachment wounds, emotional neglect, etc) in my work with young children and their families.
I hated that my mother worked all my life. I whish she was there for me. When I have kids i definitely want to work as little as possible to give them my love and attention. I have often wondered if our drepression and anxiety crisis stems from not having our mothers with us as children.
Jordan always makes me cry. Every realization I’ve gained from his perspectives are deeply ingrained within me and I’m forever grateful for this mans life.
He’s gotten me to think deeply about a lot of things and put some others into perspective so well, I couldn’t articulate them better if I tried. He’s truly a one of a kind and very grateful for him.
I think we need to address the trauma a baby feels being separated from it's birth mother. If couples want to adopt -great! But just because babies can't later remember their birth, it does still shape their first impressions of the world and makes a subconscious impact. I've helped people in therapy specifically work through this anxiety and fear of abandonment. And having worked in drug rehabilitation centers, I know that almost half of the kids of our facility were adopted as children. Most of them grew up not knowing they were adopted -yet it obviously had an emotional impact! And these kids all came from wealthy families with all the best resources. Babies in the womb know their mother's scent, voice and heartbeat. If that child is never held by it's mother and handed to a new couple - it's still going to instinctively know that mother is missing - gone! Choosing that when you don't have to is creating new suffering in the world. I think you can only believe surrogacy is an act of love out of total ignorance.
@@adamgates1142 I'd suggest adoption or becoming foster parents over surrogacy. There is no reason the parent's desire/instinct for biological children should outweigh the wellbeing of an infant. It's cruel to create fresh trauma in the world where it's not necessary.
After listening to this conversation, I understood why homosexuality is not an optimal option, regardless of religious views. The complication is just too much. The best option - 2 parents of both sexes playing their roles as intended.
I completely agree... Dave might have read all he can about skin to skin contact etc but nothing replaces the bond that is nine months in the making. Absolutely there are bad unfit mothers, but a child's first connection is with the person who carried it and I believe surrogacy should not be so lightly taken. The financial aspect of it is the least of the problems it poses
I have a friend who was given up for adoption at four months by a mother who badly wanted to keep him. Though he was adopted by a wonderful, loving family, he yearned to be reunited with his biological mother. He finally met her again when he was 53. He told me that he knew her smell, he knew the feel of her skin and he knew her voice before she spoke. The point is, there is more between a baby and his/her mother than we know and should that connection be disregarded to satisfy the wants of adults who want an instant family? Kids aren’t a possession. This conversation is a minefield that is dressed up as something that can be intellectually navigated. I don’t have the answer any more than Dr. Peterson and Dave Rubin do but I do think it’s wrong to experiment with a child’s life.
Dave is a fake pro lifer. He is purposely ripping two babies from their biological mothers for his own selfish desires. His husband and him are hypocritical gay men that envy women.
Your friend's situation sounds devastating to both mother and baby...But what point are you making about all of the children whose mothers do want/need to give them up? Those children need families. I cannot understand why some people oppose gay couples adopting, when there are so so many religious nuclear families who say "adopting just isn't right for us." Why can't we think about what's at least next best for kids?
@@kellymckay544 i think that there’s importance in the intentions. Even though in principle it is the same, a child separated from his/her mother, one is an alternative from a bad situation (a mother can’t care for the baby, for any reason) vs a couple actively searching and creating the circumstances (egg donor, Ivf, surrogacy and all in between) in order for them to have a baby. In my opinion, the first scenario is trying to lessen the pain/bad situation and the second is creating it
@@marianescamilla You are right in a way. They are creating the situation. Maybe adopting kids in the system may be more ideal. But all the criticism, though it may be fair, it's also not put on straight people. Forty percent divorce, many kids are in unstable situations ect. The criticism is in relation to an ideal that most don't achieve. So it may be fair, it's also not easy to put that ideal onto gay people without realising it's complicated.
It is not just the eggs, Dave. Women carry babies for around 9 months in their bodies paying a big price in terms of their health and sharing nutrients from their own bodies. The levels of stress that women may experinece during their pregnancy also impact whether certain genes get triggered in fetus itself. Higher levels of stress in a pregnant woman= significantly higher probability of health and development related issues. There are multiple studies available that show this link. So it is not just sourcing the egg for fertilization but also growing developing that egg in the womb.
I’m pretty sure he’s aware of all that. And that the wonderful ladies who are having the babies are well looked after and appreciate the financial side of this transaction
@@monikagolab8892 It doesn't seem that women create life. Women don't experience creating a person. But they certainly experience carrying and bringing the life into the world. God is the Creator.
I wish all people had wisdom to discuss important issues in such a civilized and respectful manner: exchange of experience and knowledge, logical thinking, empathy, the desire to really understand the problem and find ways to solve it. These conversations are priceless.
Dave seems like a nice guy with good intentions and this was a great chat. I just never seem to feel comfortable when people talk about mixing and matching eggs and sperm and having surrogates and choosing a mother 'like it's tinder' and all that, it just feels so unnatural to the point where I feel that it becomes a purely selfish act for the couple and they are not considering how the child will feel having been created that way.
You feel like that because it’s true. Many years ago a saw a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Apu, who was trying very hard to have children and failing, “Children Happen”. I am not saying that fertility treatment is wrong, but people are willing to do so many bizarre stuff in order to have that “traditional family picture” they criticize so much. Sometimes you just can’t have certain lifestyles and it’s okay. Many of my grandma sisters have no children simply because they couldn’t find a husband in time. If you ask me thats harder than being homossexual, because you have everything there to have children its just that it didn’t happen because life is that way. People just want to be famous on instagram now.
As opposed to the millions of people choosing to be single parents or shoving their kids in care and working 12 hours a day? Seriously. Their kids will be well loved and 100% cared for substantially better than any child from a single parent or kid in care almost the moment they are born.. His kids have family assisting.. which North America has forgot about doing.. His kids are growing up with two parents..
Im kind of in a same boat as you with the issue but, i also see the cultural shift and realise that, what we have had doesnt have to be. That being said, deep down i cant still accept it, even gay marriage. I am accepting it on pure rationale as ''it is not my place to deny gays to get married and have kids''. At the end of the day, i am still part of the old culture with old thinking and i dont think it can be changed. Eventually death will change it and rest of the world moves on however it sees fit!
@@Nimai_Aquino Yes that's true, many of them want to destroy the traditional family while at the same time wanting to recreate it for themselves synthetically, it's very odd really. I know people who are getting older and have no husband and want kids and they seem heartbroken because they know the chance is slipping away, it is sad to see.
Thank you for these tough conversations. I'm a gay woman who loves kids but I don't think it would be good to raise a child without a father. I just think two women would smother the child and maker her/him soft. The lgbt community needs to stop pretending that science and gender differences aren't real. We need to wake up and talk about the truth..Not Lil nas x videos. I personally think that God made the good gay and trans people to be extra caregivers, mentors and artistic geniuses. Think about how many great works of music, literature and art wouldn't exist without gay minds. Our solitude and outsider lifestyle helps make us who we are. I'm happy that society is more accepting but I wouldn't change who I am for anything. God bless you Dr. Peterson. Congrats on the baby Dave! I'm happy for you. I'm just expressing my personal opinion for my own life on choosing to not have kids.
As a same sex attracted woman as well, I do not want to have kids with another woman even if I feel compelled for the very same reasons you described above.
@@monikagolab8892 if God actually did make mankind then that would mean he created me the way I naturally am which is gay. I was 100% born this way. I am spiritual but not very religious. I was brought up Catholic.
The science says that children raised by same sex couples are not only in good condition but also likely do better in school, compared to heterosexual couples. That's science, follow it if you speak so fondly of it
I had a child with a lady, she struggled with some of her own demons and decided what was best for the child was to give up the baby. Her mother stepped in and took care of him with me. He knows his grandmother as mumma, and he knows his biological mom as his mother. He understands the difference now even at 5 years old. His grandmother is everything to him. He still enjoys seeing his biological mom but is not very attached.
@@SkyValleyStuff Nothing wrong with trying again. We don't always get it right the first time. The wisest person is the one who's made the most mistakes.
My experience being raised by two dads. My biological mom is my dads sister me and her are very close and i have four sisters one was adopted before the rest of us was born. My parents are professionals and gave us an amazing life. One dad is a nurse the other one a maths teacher at university. We lived and live better than most people I know. My dads have been together for 28 years but got married in 2015. So it’s pretty stable one one dad was bad cop the other was good cop.
@@ejejenrnjrejhsndjjeekbeehh8435 Narrow world view? Every Democrat and most of the entire world was against gay marriage not so long ago - what changed? Did we suddenly become a more enlightened society or is something else at play here? People as a whole are weak minded and absolutely affected by propaganda. It was demonstrated with Project Mockingbird and (most especially) the lefts insistence on shutting down free speech, not reporting on it or the 'othering' of people that resist their radical views?
Imagine being a baby. All you've know for your entire life of 9 months is your mother. Her heartbeat, her voice muffled through flesh, her energy, her love, her hand on belly on you, her soft womb. You go through the birth process, the most wild otherworldly transition, just you and her. You are suddenly thrust into the world and where is she? Where is the smell and sound and heartbeat and skin and energy and love of the only human you know? The one you are primed in every atom of every cell to be held by in this moment, nursed by, adored by. You're thrust on to some strangers. Your primal body thinks your mother is dead. Thats what registers. Terror. Something is wrong. Where is my mother, my everything? You never feel, see, hear, taste your mother again. The most profound abandonment wound that will shape every aspect of you for the rest of your life. Surrogacy is not okay.
Imagine growing a baby for 9 months. Growing a whole new organ for her. Weaving her together from the nourishment of your flesh and blood and spirit. Feeling nauseous and exhausted and swollen. Feeling her kick and hiccup and squirm. Feeling the fear of what labour might bring. Going through the intensity of birth, from the early sensations to the "I'm can't do this" to the ring of fire, to then hear your baby cry... The one that EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY is longing to hold, kiss, smell, meet.... And see this baby passed to some one else. To have a doctor reach inside you to yank out your placenta, to have your soft tender belly violently "massaged", to have just done the most miraculous thing, but have no squirmy baby on your chest. To feel the chasm between the most primal biological love you've ever known, and the intellectual idea that "oh no, thats not my baby, that's their baby. To be wheeled away to heal and have no baby. To feel your swollen leaky breasts and have no baby. To feel the rawness of your v@gina but have no baby. To bleed for weeks but have no baby. To feel your infected C-section scar, and have no baby.
WOW, I never thought of it from that perspective before, Daisy. Even being married for 36 years and as a father of four and knowing the deep & different connection my wife has with the kids I never thought about what it would be like for the CHILD to have that bond shattered. Thank you.
@@dnd6379 As much as I probably agree with the stance you are probably insinuating through that response I also think this response is ludicrously dumbed down to the points being raised
I don't think we are prepared to consider this point fully, as a society. But, it hunk you are forgetting that newborns have an amazing gift of not remembering what happened to them for the first 3 or so years. Look to all those people who turned out ok and happy even though they had to grow up without their biological mom from the start of their life... What you describe make sense, but it is not the defining factor in how person's life will turn out to be in my opinion.
I have such deep respect for this conversation. I myself raised my grand daughter from 6 months to the age of 7. That last year she longed for a “normal” family, a mother and father. She was blessed in that her father remarried and was able to provide this for her. The normal family, male, female, is likely to always be normal. You are mapping this out. I do not envy you the road ahead. You think you can deal with whatever the world throws your way. But when you child says “I want a normal family,” that’s hard. I put her in play therapy. Because while she was excited about the normal family, she was torn about leaving me. Play therapy works wonders. You have much wisdom, my friend, and with Jordan Peterson as a resource I think you will draw a very clear map for those who follow.
It's really so wise and kind and selfless of you to put it like this about her father being able to provide the kind of family the child longed for. She's lucky to have you. You're not possessive of her.
No doubt she wanted the idealized/romanticized version of the nuclear family because she had become fully aware of it via the media, you and the people around her. I doubt there is anything instinctive about it, that it is the best and greatest.
There is a really interesting book on this topic called "Them Before Us" which I think is pretty important for Gay parents to read and consider. I am adopted and there are many things that I feel about my situation that I will never be able to share with my adoptive parents out of fear of hurting them. They didn't do it to me, and while I am grateful for my life, and I love my family which was ideal in every way, I still experience a deep sense of loss and this feeling of being rootless. When a child is brought into this world disconnected from a biological parent that is a loss, and those parents trying to raise those children would be well served to understand it as such and be sensitive to that since there child is unlikely to ever express it honestly with them.
NO one family is the ideal, but we all should at least try to be. The point, I think, We already opened up pandoras box, now we have to figure out how to best live with what was let out.
I too was adopted and I understand the feelings you shared. I found a road around it by making a decision in my early adult years to embrace my adopted family as my family. I found that making an intentional choice which I spoke out loud to myself allowed me the ability to bond my heart with my adopted family. My sister's who also are adopted haven't been able to make that choice and are still very much missing out in the bond that adoption can bring once the adopted makes that choice. What I still find lacking, even now at 46, is the love of a father (I was adopted by a single woman who was divorced). But I am learning that yhe Father's love is manifested in Christ, and I am learning to embrace it.
Whether you are a proponent of gay marriage or not, you have to respect Dave's attitude and willingness to discuss this. Same to Jordan. Whether you agree or not, you shouldn't hate the other person, but rather be willing to listen and discuss. Props to both.
I agree. I have always questioned if the children of gay parents would automatically be indoctrinated toward a gay predilection. I don't know the answer, but it's great that these questions can be asked without hatred for being curious
@@frenchappletarte3252 I know I'm gay since I was 7-8 yo, I was born in the late 80 and always seen straight couples kiss, and also my mother and father.
@@frenchappletarte3252 I find it so interesting how people think being Gay is like a being Christian like you can just become one and then live your life that way lol
@@spliced7383 it's naturally a point of confusion for a few reasons. I have witnessed gay men flirt with straight men and joke (not joke) that they were trying to 'turn' them. If a gay man thinks a person can be 'turned', then maybe homosexuality is a choice. There's also the nature vs nurture question. If homosexual behavior is biological and natural selection is a reality, how could homosexuality be hardwired biologically? No hate here, just observations and thoughts.
@@joeschmo6834 You mean anti-depressants? You make it sound as if he's known for binging cocaine. You're also wrong. He is still taking a psychotropic medication
@@lolcano2346 it was opiates, pain drugs, the same stuff junkies use but you can use your insurance to pay for it. Getting off that stuff is hard, don't down play that
@@Laocoon283 a) He took benzo's as prescribed by a mental health professional to address depression. You actually trying to compare that with what someone is typically referring to when they talk about substance abuse and addiction? gtfo b) If that's your idea of 'getting high' then you're doing it wrong. Go get yourself a drinking problem or start smoking weed every day then get back to me mate
This is too much like buying and selling humans to me from the child to the surrogate mother, etc. People are not commodities. Children are a gift, not a right, and deserve to be raised by their biological mother and father in a committed, loving relationship. While families do not always live up to these standards, it should be the expectation and ideal. While single parents or same-sex couples may try to fill the need for care a child needs, they will always be lacking, and it should not be a situation that is voluntarily created.
Exactly, the kid suddenly has no access to the person that birthed them, person that they were hearing everyday for 9 months, person that they have strong bond with and that bond is broken now. That can't be good for the development of the child.
Dave is a great conversation partner for Jordan. He's got enough gusto himself that he doesn't just go silent anytime Jordan speaks and he's not afraid to talk over Jordan when he has something to say.
Not being able to have children after completing my physician training obligations was a very disturbing and difficult situation for me. No longer is it taboo for women in medicine to have children during training. During my career, I hope I had a strong impact about this issue for the multitude of female medical students and residents who came for training at a major teaching medical center in Boston. I also find peace in helping my siblings out by interacting often these 30 years with my nieces and nephews. Rescuing dogs and cats have also been part of my therapy. Anyone who wants but could not have children can have a great life.
Awe. I'm sorry sorry as a doc I can relate to the training and the difficulty it is to have kids during training. Kudos to you for finding peace with your decision to wait til after but then be unable and for helping other young doctors to forge ahead with personal decisions before it is too late and not worry about judgement!! I personally quit a surgery resi when the chief said,, we can't have kids til we are done (in 5 years) I said f y and quit. And transferred to anesthesia and was pregnant first month. I'd never have done it differently. I couldn't have handled the pregnancies at an older age. Plus I was too educated to know how much more risky it was to wait. Seems to be off the gay couple topic but again much respect to you. And I think we each feel diff about whether one can be whole and complete without having a child and that applies to gay couples. Can life be wonderful? Sure! But I think each Soul, has a different path , and none of us can ever be in another's body and walk their path on this earth this go around (soul wise)
@@venesaingold9390that’s soo horrible a married couple should always have the right to adopt. How are kids suppose to be raised ethically and with morals if they aren’t expose to it?? So stupid!
I can relate. I'm not a doctor but I spent a good amount of time in school and have found myself single and childless in my 30s. I could still meet someone and have a family but the chances are smaller every day. It's great that you've taken your energy and invested it in your nieces, nephews, and students. I'm sure it has not gone to waste.
I think more research is needed on the impact on children being raised by gay parents. Especially since more gay couples are deciding to raise children. I knew a girl raised by Lesbians and she's been in therapy most of her life to this day. I don't think having babies should be a right, we are raising a very confused society.
Look into the Them Before Us group founded by Katy Faust. She was raised by same sex parents and presents the information thats usually glossed over about the negative effects from it. And it's a similar philosophy that children have the right to their parents, but adults don't have the right to have children.
Surrogacy may "benefit" the "parents", but it is deliberately creating a child who will have a deep origin problem. We all naturally want to know where we came from, and that the origin connects us to security and love. No matter how much you read up about skin-to-skin contact, get in frozen breast milk etc, you can't replicate this. And in this case there's no mother, and bringing in some women to be around the baby doesn't fix that. I find this tragic
Amen. There is a rationality behind God's commandments and now Western society is trying to change it with hubris and I personally feel that it is going to end like in Babel.
My thoughts exactly. We don't have children to fulfill our needs, but to fulfill theirs. Also, the ethical concerns behind surrogacy cannot be so easily dismissed and justified.
I know two donor children (both to lesbians) and they both have asked and wanted to meet thier biology dad. Worst part is their right was ripped as soon as their mothers signed on the dotted line.
There is a mother. But they chose to exclude her and she chose to exclude herself. Their motive is clear. Her motive was money, fair enough, or altruism. Either case I think it is deeply wrong. Like prostitution only she not only sold her body but her children. We are more our bodies and blood than our popular culture addmits. Our bodies and who we literally come from matters. This is parenting like marraige before it becoming another vehicle of expressing personal prefrence. Only now say we love our children while throwing out one of their parents.
@@natashaharsh9793 yes. This is self love at the expense of child love as the first act of parenthood. It is a perverse inversion of the parent-child relationship; instead of the parent sacrificing for the child the child is robbed for the parent.
I wonder myself as a mother of 4 and currently nursing my 4 month old what that lack of connection might mean for a baby. Even if I don't always produce milk. my baby still nurses for comfort constantly. It's how he knows he is warm and safe because mommy is here. He actually begins to smile when he knows he is about to nurse and it calms him right down. Another thing as a mother I truly believe babies only need their mother. Children can need both but babies need mother. Mother is an infants entire world. They know only her...smell, taste, voice... Yes a mother is a baby's universe.
You’re talking best case scenario but we all know mothers can be abusive, withholding and downright cruel. I loved and depended on my father for everything, he was my world, my mother and I had a very contentious relationship and we were never close until her later years when she became very ill, but my father was always the glue that kept our family together and that’s why if I had to choose between a mother or two dads I’d take the dads any day!
My daughter and her 3 young sons just moved in with us. (she fled an abusive relationship) I hadn't seen two of them in like 3 years and I never met the youngest. But I can attest that children are sensitive to people that are sensitive to their needs. The father was obviously abusive but mom is struggling and is disconnected on some levels with the children. (she is in counseling) however, the boys are thriving because my husband and I are plugged in. Discipline through love. They are happy and secure. I will continue to support her recovery and pray the father gets his crap fixed. The boys need both parents. But I will be damned if those children will go back to living their former lives. As one Christian woman to another God does not want us to stay in abusive relationships. Long-lasting relations aren't always happy ones.
@@carolmartin8781 ❤️ the middle grandson, who is super shy and recluse, hung out with me and drew like 7 pictures of him and I holding hands with hearts all over it. And boy he was talking up a storm. I'm already seeing a positive change.❤️
@@kesakary I'm glad things are going well with your grandson. One of my grandchildren was sexually abused and abandoned by her parents at age three. She stayed with me, and the first year we did art projects together on a daily basis. She didn't like doing art alone, and insisted that I participate. It was just as therapeutic for me as it was for her. Take care.
I'm so glad she had you both to rely on. Obviously, she needed to escape those binds, since you hadn't been able to see them in so long. Disfunction does NOT love company. All the best to you.
Many say having 2 loving men is better than an abusive mother. If the mother is abusive, then certainly the child should be taken away. But for me, 2 men raising a child together through a surrogate is just not natural. I recently met 2 men - 1 Af American and 1 Caucasian, who implanted 2 eggs with sperm from each. Isn't that alone a little egotistical? They have 2 girls, fraternal twins, of 2 skin colors. 7 years old when I met them. I wondered how it will be when they get their period and start becoming women with body and hormonal changes. It just seemed very creepy to me, nice as the fathers seemed. And maybe some kids at school would be cruel and that would be an extra burden for them to bear.
@@darkninja1693 I'm not trying to avoid it at all if I were trying to avoid it I wouldn't here in the comment section wasting my time especially when it's none of my business
A baby already recognises the sound of its mother’s voice in the womb. Once born it will thrive best when latching onto its mother’s breast and bonding physiology and emotionally but also benefitting from its mother’s antibodies that are in her milk. Full breast feeding combined with positive physical bonding enables the baby to develop into a healthy and stable child.
Fiona, your so naive and so yesterday! Not mother but a birthing person, or Parent#2 may I remind you? Also please note that there is really no such thing as a "woman" and by extension anyone can be a woman or a man. Also, as pointed in great documentary by Matt Walsh "What is a Woman?", there is not even definition of what a woman is according to highly knowledgable and respected medical professionals! And our future elites from Harvard University also stated in their Student's body LGBTQ2SA++ pamphlet that for some people their gender identity can change on daily basis. Yes, on day-to-day bases, courtesy of Harvard.
@@samhurton9308 "anyone can be a woman or a man..." I am no biologist, I dont study Harvard, but based on my knowledge across all species, female give birth, no other gender. Thats a enough of a definition to me.
This is a great example of how to have a conversation about a challenging topic without bringing ideology into the mix. It is this type of level-headed, logical exploration that will bring us back from the current political morass.
I was a student rotating through CAMH at the time when Dr. Zucker was embroiled in controversy. It was very sad -- he was meant to give a talk to to students at the University of Toronto, and there a was a massive uproar (from a minority of loud voices) who put out a petition to get him cancelled. They accused him of all sorts of things like practicing conversion therapy (not true) and transphobia. In the end his lecture was cancelled. There is no room for diversity of thought. Dr. Zucker's goal was to give people the time to become comfortable in the bodies they were given. He was fired shortly after. This will be a stain on mental health and medicine going forward.
I like Dave Rubin and I was so surprised at my immediate negative reaction to this. What got me the most was hearing about the night nurses, the caretakers and the freezers full of breastmilk. As a mother of a toddler, the struggles of raising a baby are very fresh in my mind. I am sure many mothers are familiar with the severe sleep deprivation, troubles breastfeeding and/or pumping (and self loathing as a consequence of that), not to mention the extreme physical feat of pregnancy, birth and post-partum recovery. He is making it sound like they will be outsourcing all these hardships to a small army of women, while still feeling self-actualized and passing on their genetic material. If reproduction was a game, they are playing with cheat codes.
I think Dave and his partner are aware of their limitations and are trying to prepare for those limitations in the best way they can for their babies. I don’t believe that Dave and his partner will stay in bed sleeping while the night nurse takes care of the babies, I just think the nurse will be there to help guide them in what to do. If I had the means I would probably preplan in the same way Dave is doing. I’m a woman but am not very maternal, very organized and don’t like things out of place. My mom had to help me to traverse dealing with children, I guess much in the same way Dave’s night nurse will help him. He realizes it won’t be easy and is trying to learn.
@@iamspartacus7756 Maybe you are right. The reason it sounded like they are taking the easy way out was because he said they will use a night nurse for a few months until the baby has a better sleeping schedule, which to me implied that they don't want to deal with waking up every 2 hours.
Brilliantly stated - if it’s a game, they are playing with cheat codes. Loved that. The fact that all of this coordination is required to do what one woman (a mother) can do, should probably demonstrate that it’s an unnatural paddle upstream. Contrived and designed to try to simulate motherhood and replace it with… this thing.
That was painful.... On one hand I admire Jordan's open, non judgemental style, but fully embracing surrogacy for rich and famous is something else. Basically, if you have enough money, you can "create" children and redefine family to your liking, and call yourself a hero, right? There is something deeply troubling with this type of mindset, I think.
@lwf51 I don't think it is about judging people. I think it is about wondering what the ethical pitfalls to the "right to have child" are. There are really bad straight parents, but we are not thinking abou it that much because they naturally procreate. It's not like we can sterilize them... although, some people would argue on it. I would say ethically, the gay parent model is different because we help gay people to have the child. There is a mercantile aspect to it. It is tricky.
Dave seems like a nice guy and what he has sensed as missing (namely having children) is obviously true. But it seems like he's going to need all manner of scaffolding to allow this kind of parenting to be so for him and his male partner, an option not available to the vast majority of gay couples. This may be controversial to say, but when we try to mold reality to fit our will or desires, even if they seem to us noble, we find all manner of problems arise. It is a bitter pill for we modern people to swallow, especially if you have more of a liberal outlook. But in a sense highlighting this truth, helping people avoid this self-made 'chaos' has been one of the central elements to Dr. Peterson's incredible project. There is an order to things, a way towards which things tend, laws, etc. One should not try to bend the deep structure of reality to meet the reflection we wish to see in the mirror. The old religious stories tell us as much, many fairytales too. It seems there is a focus here on the self, filling the seemingly good need within one's self to be a parent. However, the stark facts of nature state he cannot be one in this way. I wonder if the hole he is describing in his life would be best filled by some other altruistic enterprise, namely committing himself to his community, helping disadvantaged young people make a go of life, etc. Diverging from a mother and a father in a deep sense could lead to untold problems down the line. Surely the last century should have taught us not to play with things, functioning institutions, ancient wisdom, we scarcely understand lest we avoid the “hell” Peterson constantly speaks of.
Interesting analysis, but I think the problem here is that it assumes that the average heterosexual parents somehow always make loving, intelligent, perfectly equipped, financially stable, white picket fence families. The truth is that the majority of families need some form of "scaffolding" at one point or another. Gay parents are far less likely to be in a situation where they are unprepared to raise children. Given the structural limitations, gay parents are far more likely to be financially stable, educated, and committed to the journey required to raise kids well and prepare them for life.
Before I make a complete fool of myself, r u the same B M that I have had discussions with on 2 different videos about the situation in Ukraine and Russia? If so, this truly is a small small world!
These two people are so beautiful! There souls searching for truth is like the sun looking for something to grow! Spread love, strength, and creativity
love and creativity would extend to the transgender community, but these two massive bigots can't even begin to conceive of that. It would get in the way of their lucrative grift.
These two men are important! Thank you for all you do! God bless. Agape. Open to being interviewed as a teacher who was told to not tell his students he loves them and not to use social media! We need to speak up!
As an Australian I have absolutely no idea who you are, but it appears to me that you will make a much better parent than many, many people I see in the world around me.
I love Dave. I can’t help but to be bothered that children will be without a mother.. the reason breast milk is so important is the milk is specifically made for the baby. If a mom comes in contact with a virus, the milk will make antibodies for babies within 24 hours. (I’ve also read 30 minutes). My child is breast fed, and when I work once a week, my mother in law can hardly calm my child down at the end of the day because the baby just wants to be cuddled to me and nurse. It’s a comfort thing. I know Dave and his husband will be great parents, but there’s just something about mothers.
Sarah, your badly mistaken. There is no difference between Father and Mother, Man and Woman. Biology is so outdated and naive! Also going forward please use proper terminology - Parent#1 and Parent #2. Please also note that any man can be a woman and any woman can be a man. "Father" and "Mother" are deeply hurting and insulting! Well, hope you know what I mean........
@@mylifemyrules8134 If you came here, listened to the conversation between JP and DR and you ended up with "grotesque" I truly think you should listen again, it’s definitely not as simple as that.
Can I ask then why your away so much from your baby when you know the critical importance of binding, being there, breastfeeding isn’t just the milk, it’s the close body connection.
40:18 "If they are [ideal] then the ideal isn't high enough, because an ideal should be something that beckons to you from the distance." "It's not something that's right there in front of you for you to grip." -Jordan B. Peterson I loved that!
I would disagree. An ideal is not a mountain peak to stand on, it's in the actions you perform that you become an ideal and if you're reasonable in your idolatry it should be possible to keep riding that ideal.
Please turn on "include automatically generated subtitles/captions". It allows for searching for quotes in the video (using the transcript and Ctrl+F) and helps many people follow along via being able to read the captions while listening. It also helps deaf people.
As a fairly recent switched to conservative gay man, this has been the most helpfully enlightening and cementing of the thoughts and fears I’ve had about where I fit in society as a conservative gay man and the issue of ideological grooming/butchering of children. Thank you so much Dave and Andrew… the work your both doing is paramount to saving our country and society as a whole.
I listen to Rubin and Peterson regularly. Don’t agree with everything but I believe listening to Dave helps gay people give themselves an option other than this wok ideology. For this, we can be grateful.
Female rolemodels definitely. Will it have adverse effects to not have a traditional mother to confide in, absolutely, but you'd be surprised by the amount of children who have a mother that you can't confide in. If you have two Parents who actually try to be there for you that is a million times better than what uncounted numbers of kids in the system and even a large number of kids in their traditional two parent home have. So sure, developmentally it's not ideal, but few things in life are, so more power to gay fathers in my book.
I agree. I think a mother and father are integral to development. Having a female role model is not the same as a mother. I think it’s especially important for the same sex parent as the child. I think I would have felt a tremendous sense of loss had I not had my mom. I think I would have looked at the other little girls with their moms and have a deep longing. A better word would be life-long grief.
As a mother of three, grandmother of seven, my gut went ping when I heard Dave say that they were hiring a night nurse. Night is a sacred time when babies experience us as their ultimate solace. Our voice, arms, warmth and the proximity of our beating hearts are foundational to establishing a baby’s spiritual and relational development. Dave and Dave, your boys will want you there! XO
Yeah absolutely. I also love that Dave Rubin is now a multi millionaire with a multi million dollar mansion. He's so brave to talk about al this stuff although he knows it will make him a shitload of money.
What is brave about someone who was all the power of the current ideology behind his back? "Conservative" Rubin has a same sex marriage, which is progressive.
Wow, this is more than conversation. It's a genuine moment of profound inspiration. There is an unusual intimacy in this type of content which will be the last nail in the coffin for "legacy media".
Unfortunately, the left, which dominates most of the west tries to shape and mold society into their failed worldview, which will lead to a catastrophe in the foreseeable future..
@@asystole_ I think it is more accurate to say that "it" (the generative distinction between male and female) is natural. It is in accord with nature, whereas homosexuality is contra naturam (against nature). Genocide "occurs in our universe [our world]", as does slavery, but the mere occurrence of something "in our world" doesn't make it right. Nature has within it the principle of "coming into being". Every human being who has ever lived in the long history of mankind has come into existence through the sexual friendship (or the sexual union at least) of a man and a woman. Even those conceived "in vitro" are the product of the union of male sperm and a female ovum. Harry Jaffa said it best "[m]ankind as a whole is recognized by its generations, like a river which is one and the same while the ever-renewed cycles of birth and death flow on. But the generations are constituted---and can only be constituted---by the acts of generation arising from the conjunction of male and female. The root of all human relationships, the root of all morality, is nature, which itself is grounded in the generative distinction of male and female...." Homosexuality is wrong for the same reason slavery is wrong. It is against nature. Paraphrasing Jaffa, nature and reason tell us that a man is not a dog or an ox and ought not be treated as one and with the very same reason they also tell us that a man is not a woman and that the right ordering of sexual relationships is between man and woman, not man and man, or woman and woman. If homosexuality were a moral good, there could be no objection to the world becoming entirely and exclusively homosexual. But this would entail the extinction of humankind within a generation or two. Would that be in accordance with nature? Would that be a moral good? Of course not! Someone said "nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns" and that is a truism you can bank on. Indeed, homosexuals (men especially) experience a level of psychic distress that is much greater than that experienced by heterosexuals. This is true regardless of how tolerant and accepting is the community in which the homosexual lives. The psychic distress I am referencing (manifesting itself as increased depression, anxiety, suicide, etc.) is intimately bound up with homosexualiy itself. It is not the result of discrimination, in other words. The disharmony in the soul, in the psyche that is the consequence of choosing, (yes choosing) a homosexual lifestyle is a consequence of choosing for oneself that which is not natural and not intended.
The West’s decimation of the sacred bond and institution of motherhood. Reducing motherhood to being an egg donor and night nurse. The cognitive dissonance of American conservatives in normalising this while at the same time arguing against gender ideology is staggering.
The video should be called: Pitfalls and Child Abuse. In every culture on earth, including in the animal world, separating a child from its mother, from the bosom of maternal care is considered cruelty. Here we are being encouraged to think it’s normal and healthy.
Jordan, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you do. I’m in my late 30’s and just finding out the wife and I can’t have children. I am very much feeling the things you talk about. I don’t want to adopt and can’t find words for why. It’s been a largely soul crushing time and these sorts of talks do help, if for no other reason, to at least obtain a reference point for where I am. So thank you again.
I hope you find the meaning you are looking for. My wife and I were in a similar situation, We were not having children and after a long time trying learned from a specialist it would be virtually impossible naturally. We did have the option and means to support IVF, which was our only option after our insurance refused to pay for it. Now we are looking forward to brining new life into this world soon as he is will be born soon god willing. I encourage you and your wife never to give up. I do not know your situation or what medically would cause that diagnosis. I would though encourage you to look for the future and what you and your wife can provide for this generation and ages to come.
We have changed our mind on having children too late. Then, to my surprise, I wasn't able to conceive naturally and time was of the essence. Now I'm pregnant with an egg from an anonymous donor and my husband's semen. That was the best option to have a baby as close to us (biologically) as possible. Somehow, none of us was too enthusiastic about adoption. Wish you good luck, there are various possible ways.
I don't know anything about you or your wife. Even if I did then it's not for anyone other than you two to decide whether you're going to be parents anyway. If it should happen to be the case that both of you would make great parents, then doing so is still the greatest thing you can do with your life. Not just because adoption provides a home for children who need one, but because after you're done raising them, you're going to send them out into the world. A world that all the rest of us live in. Do you believe that you'll send out someone who makes the world better or worse? If the answer is better then being distracted by the idea that adoption isn't your first choice might make you hesitant until the ship has sailed, and you could miss out on the most worthwhile thing that you could've done with your life....though to be clear it's not for me to tell you how you have to handle that.
Dave, after giving birth and I was lactating, my milk would come in with just the mere thought of my baby or saying the word baby. Children need a warm, loving mom. Im not saying a man doesn't love his child, but 10 men can't replace a mother.
And to think of the baby, knowing and being close only to their mother for the entirety of their existence -- to then be taken away, never to see again the one person in the whole world this baby actually wants more than anyone else. During a time they can not express themselves verbally and have to accept their surroundings, without any sort of independence whatsoever. Only a society that accepts abortion can rationalise this sort of cruelty.
There are maternal men. One cannot just remain in generalizations or exception. Children need nurturing that includes touch, love, patience, safety… This can happen in gay or heterosexual relationships.
I was raised in a gay family. My father (biological) and my papa (not biological) did a beautiful job. This was way before gay marriage was even thought possible. They did an amazing job. So proud of both of them.
@@captainbeastazoid7084 I was raised by two women. One my bio mother. It was not good for me I'm the least. I struggle greatly with interpreting men very well amd they are intimidating to me. Something I work on. No, I've never in my life questioned my sexuallality. I am definitely straight.
@@bthemedia O yes, that's what we need now - Peterson not seeing any moral problem with ordering and buying wombs to carry children for a narcissistic gay couple. The new morality, the new brave world! Hurray!
One of the most fascinating conversations I've ever heard. Two incredibly articulate intelligent and interesting men having an open conversation. The world needs more of this.
So is the only reason you think Dave will be an inadequate parent and father completely based on the gender of his partner? If this is the case, congratulations; you're woke. Cause I guess orphans or people with step parents all lived horrible terrible lives, and should have never been brought into this world at all right? Those children should have been aborted and spared the misery.
I recall an email to a public service radio programme from a gay man who’d been in a stable gay relationship (before gay lib and law reform for 30 years. The presenter read it out live on-air and I’ve never forgotten it word for. Having explained his 30 year couple relationship he concluded “… children not only need a father, they deserve one.”
This conversation, whilst admirable in its spirit of cooperation and mutual respect, remains rooted in the American idea of self fulfillment. As is clearly outlined here, the issues and their possible solutions are the domain of the privileged and ultra rich. I am from Zimbabwe where most people depend on subsistence farming and the traditional family to be able to survive - and how Zimbabweans survive is how most people in the world survive (no freezers full of donated breast milk). It would be great to see a conversation like the above extrapolated to include the needs of the average world citizen rather than those of the elite, albeit a well meaning elite.
Someone has been reading too much lin biao. America is about manifest destiny if we want it we manifest it. That's how we got to moon and how we will conquer mars. Beyond that Zimbabwe would never welcome white people with open arms anyways the way we are suppost to open are arms to anyone who begs.
As a gay man myself (one that really respects and admirers Dr. Peterson) it’s one thought that haunts me constantly to really wish children of my own someday and the dilemma of not being able to generate them naturally with my partner and, if indeed we do have children, creating a somewhat not traditional family unit. I’m still fairly young and do not(and cannot financially) consider to form a family right now or for some years yet. Nevertheless I struggle with this constantly. It was really helpful to see Dr. Peterson creating the space for such conversation
A child needs a mother and a father. More so than that, they deserve them both. I realise circumstances happen in life, but to intentionally change the family at its foundation is harmful and wrong, and selfish, and we all know that deep in our spirit, if we aren't too afraid to look there. Not everything we want is good for a child or right. A healthy fulfilling and nurturing life and family takes both a mom and a dad. We should do all we can to ensure that's what they get. Science playing God is not working out too well and is dangerous ground for our future.
Well said, Karen! Thanks for sharing this. It's one thing when, sometimes, a nuclear family can be failing their children and it's another very different thing to decide to be a false family just because we want to please ourselves with total disregard for what's best for the kids. It seems that many so called "conservatives" have bent their knees to this gay agenda.😢 Now this is part of the GOP platform as well and it's shameful. We are failing our kids and society from both sides of the political spectrum. We have to resist them to their face if we really want to rebuild our Christian Western Civilization. Our children have suffered enough and this just makes it worse.
@@PallyB I too have been taken aback by the complacency with this situation. It's as though conservatives are being forced to just accept this as the status quo without question. Pretty sad! 😢💔
But isn't this the question they were both highlighting. What then do you expect a gay man in his position to do with his life? To say no to him moving as close to the ideal as possible is also to push him towards something else. The more narcissistic Gay couple that live for themselves and spray body paint and walk around Hollywood lol But seriously, what are they then to do?
This conversation touches on so many sensitive and difficult issues around gay couples, gay parenting, being a child of gay parents, being a surrogate mother, egg donor, kudos for the honest and thoughtful interview. Refreshing and helpful.
What a warm, refreshing , honest and vulnerable conversation. Thank you Jordan and Thank you Dave. I myself diverge some, whilst still loving the individual, due to my Biblical exhortations. Thank you again.
@@Duster29to86 that’s very ignorant thinking especially since research and literature has shown that children raised by same sex couples seem to do a lot better but of course the same can be said with heterosexual couples it just about GOOD parenting at the end of the day
@@white6505 as someone who disagrees with homosexuality and believes the Bible, your answer is completely unhelpful. you cannot convert and just magically be free from this burden of sin. you have to recognize it as sin first and choose to turn away from it before you make commitments.
@@Opal5674 he is struggling. to win the struggle in one direction or the other, you need purpose, a direction as you traverse the issue. i don't know the guy, maybe in christian values he may find the solution to what is troubling him. why does that bother you so much?
Hello Jordan. I have never written you before, even though I feel like I know you in a way. I first discovered you when you posted your "professor against political correctness" videos, as I was interested in the strange new phenomenas I saw rising, which you have adressed over the years. For years I have followed you online, read your articles, your two 12 rules-books. I have watched you live on stage, and was praying for your health during your period of sickness. Know that you're very much loved and appreciated. I think it was also because of you that I discovered The Rubin Report, which I've also watched a lot, and I think you're doing a very good and important job as well Dave (if you'll ever read this). I have a lot of respect for the both of you. What you're addressing in this talk has interested me, and is the issue I have with respect to gay marriage (namely children). I understand there are issues involved with missing out on the different roles which the two sexes usually bring to the family. It seems you're aware of this Dave, and that you've thought it through. I respect that. However, I do wish you two would have talked more about it from the perspective of the child. What's in the best interest of the child? What about the child's rights in all of this? I understand that what I'm about to say may sound harsh for you to hear Dave, but do know that I respect you very much. That I really love your show, your courage, and I love to hear you're happy with your partner, and wish you all the best together. I would love to hear your thoughts on what I have to say, so let's get to it. Doesn't the child have a naturally given right to grow up and receive love and care from it's actual/real parents, as far as that's possible? Let me try to explain more detailed. There is a big difference between giving children an adoptive family to remedy an unwanted situation for the child (not being able to get care from their own parents), and on constructing PLANNED fatherless or motherless children to create a family for people who because of the nature of the same-sex-union can not have children naturally themselves. This is a completely different "box" than what feelings the adults may have for the child, or what caring ability they may possess. Coherence is important when rights are derived from biological law. Biology and genetics say something basic about where we come from, who we are, and what opportunities we have. Biology shows us connections that should be fulfilled so that a fair balance between strong and weak in nature is not disturbed. A justice that is about granting the individual what he/she is entitled to. Children are necessarily born as a result of the union between a male and a female gamete. These will basically belong to a specific man and a specific woman, at least as long as we do not start tinkering with the genetic material. The child has - for this reason - a natural right to know its origin, its family, and receive care from its own parents - as far as this is possible. This reservation is about securing the child's rights, and applies to unforeseen cases where parents fall out or die, do not have the opportunity to provide the care which the child needs. The reservation is NOT about securing adult parental rights in situations where the child is intentionally denied one or both biological parents. The purpose of biological parenting thus primarily has the best interests of the child in mind: It must provide for the weakest need of care, to provide for the safest possible upbringing. Thereafter the biological parenting is about the parents' happiness, but this is achieved through responsible exercise and management of one's own biological preconditions, and by setting aside selfish inclinations to meet the child's need for closeness, belonging, unconditional love, security. It is a short-circuit to believe that the reverse is the case - that children's purpose is to fulfill and secure adults "needs" to become parents, and thus be at the mercy of adults that require the child's natural rights to be overridden. Children are a gift to parents. Children can not, and should not, be objects we can claim, buy, or construct across all biological laws. I don't think women's and children's bodies should be considered as merchandise. And what about the bond that the surrogate mother and the infant have created after nine months? Isn't it traumatic for the infant to break this?
Great points WorkInProgress! Adult's own selfish desires, no matter how creative they are in "morally" justifying them, can not deny a child the most basic and very fundamental right - to have own Real Mother. Horrible Child Abuse and violation of the most fundamental human right at least to have a Mother anyone???
Well said. As a matter of fact, Dave said "his mother" would spend some time doing the motherly act of feeding and assisting in caring for the newborn. On another note, I know a woman who chose her career over marriage . She practiced law and as her biological clock ticked on,decided she wanted a child.she contacted a sperm bank and gave birth to a daughter that by contract, will not know her biological father. She grew up with my daughters and my son as classmates and would always cling to me and the other fathers in our social circle. Although her grandfather and uncle were very active in her life,it was apparent that they were not the perfect substitute. These particular scenarios are played out among the well to do who in their own selfishness, act against nature to accomplish their selfish desire. As much as I enjoyed the discussion ,I think that Jordan Petersen knows the truth....having a wife ,and taising his own children,but somehow sought to give solice to what I believe he knows is not ,and cannot yield the fruit that his union bore in his marriage and the union of parenting his children.
While I can understand the message was in fact intended for JP and DR I just wanted to salute you in your additions to an already great conversation, raising very interesting points of analysis.
Very well written. It will be an immutable truth for both of Dave's Children that they will indeed both have mothers of whom they will (Likely) never meet or have by virtue of process were divorced from the children's lives. A deep portion of this question is brought up in your comment, there is a major difference between a born child who is lacking the ideal heterosexual parentage and a child being purposefully denied a heterosexual parentage (mom & dad).
One day a computer algorithm will decide what family, which will be more like a small pod-tribe is best suited to live in to bring out it’s full potential. We will be resorted by the age of 4. Then kids won’t be killing themselves when they can’t live up to what their parents decided for them to be and live as a life. At least it’d make a good psychological thriller. “The computer algorithm and the social credit system and systems measuring every gesture decided it’s time for your to move little Johhny.”
Thank you for the Truth in concerns regarding your journey in parenting, Ruben. 🙏🏽 Confrontation of Fears in Truth is the only way to be a healthy contributing member of society.
As a mother, Dave just unknowingly elaborated how essential I am. Thank you. He and his spouse have to collage different individuals to do what I do naturally. Motherhood cannot artificially be simulated... not matter how much you try. I wish you Dave the best of luck on your journey... I hope to hear from your kids in future to get their take from this experience. Much love and blessings 🙌🙏❤️
@DEZZNUTZ 1001 True, although plenty of heterosexual couples are 'hamstringjng' their children by bringing them into the world without being equipped to parent them. The fact is that plenty of people, if not most people, don't get the idyllic upbringing that a GOOD mother and a GOOD father can give them. And one parent being good at the job can't compensate for the other one being bad at it. If two parents of any gender are good at the job, they're of far more benefit to the child than a bad parent.
What a great conversation! Personally, I was quite reluctant to listen to this episode due to the nature of the topic. This episode really shows the significance of how important it is to have conversations. Thank you Dr. Peterson.
Congratulations to your multi year contact with Daily Wire Dr Peterson. Congratulations to you and Dave and all best wishes to your new soon to be family, how exciting.
What an honest insightful conversations. Dave, I admire your courage to discuss this and have this discussion with Jordan Peterson. It was so intense and relevant, truly enlightening and worth the time, heterosexual or gay.
Such a deep conversation. One thing that can’t be replicated are the chemical reactions and bio information passing between mother and child. For example, my lactation nurse told me that while breastfeeding, the child’s saliva enters the breast and informs the mother’s body of the nutritional needs of baby and other information is shared from baby to mother that way. Whether true or not, there are certainly biological systems at work between mother and child that cannot be replicated.
@@pennyyeomans4115 that’s unfortunate for me as I put a lot of trust in my lactation nurse. The point remains that chemical reactions and biological changes occur during bonding that can’t be replicated
@@pennyyeomans4115 maybe you’re right maybe not. I don’t Find it outside of the realm of possibilities. Just think of the information exchange and chemical reaction between two humans when they kiss and exchange saliva
What a great discussion. I loved the part talking about ideals and why they are important, even though they can feel threatening because they cause comparison and push us to strive to be something more than we are now. It seems like there is a tension between accepting ourselves as who we are now, while also still knowing there is more that we could become. It's easy to interpret that as meaning we are not good enough and that is the idea people are pushing against. It threatens our current identity and makes us have to question ourselves. Thank you both for sharing this important dialog.
Surrogacy seems very dystopian to me. And it’s just the fact that you know it’s not coming from your partner, even if my prospective wife was unable to have children I still wouldn’t relegate that task for another woman to fulfill, it just feels immensely wrong, unethical, and emasculating even.
In my opinion, there can be no substitute for a 'female' maternal role. Gay couples can justify their ability to play that role in the absence of a female (or a male in lesbian relationships), but the fact remains it's all fiction. I don't see this as beneficial for any child. I think a child brought up in a gay household will be greatly disadvantaged in later life, no matter how much love they are given by their two fathers or two mothers. I'm sure that as the products of such marriages grow into adulthood, we will start seeing serious repercussions. Right now, people are experimenting. We don't yet know how detrimental these experiments will turn out to be.
We are traveling in uncharted territory - at least from the "scientific" perspective. I was raised in the 50~60s by a divorced mother also with a father who rejected me to the day he died. Despite a relatively "successful" career, emotionally, my life has been a pursuit of a family I never had. The lack of a father and worse, the rejection of a father created a "hole" in my personality that I was never able to fulfill - it caused damage that brought me to the brink of suicide (including gesture) on three occasions - only "miracles" saved me. My experience (and I am a MD-level therapist) convinced me that at one point in a boy's life, he needs some "male" role model and acceptance. My grand-mother provided me with the mothering I needed but looking back at my life, I went through hell. This interview brings up great issues - I admire the research and care that Dave and his partner put into their family, they are also fortunate to have the resources to "do the right thing", may God bless them. Ciao, L (survivor, Veteran)
@@americathebeautiful9613 Hi "America the Beautiful", thank you for your kind words. We need more people like you to save this country of ours - I wish you happiness and success building your little family nest. May Peace be with you, Ciao, L
When my depression was at its lowest of lows I remember thinking how I didn't want to be a slave to anyone, how I'm only here to fulfill other people's problems. Responsibility isn't only doing things for others. You could be responsible for a wonderful garden you created. You could be responsible for family that brings you joy. You could be responsible for a pet that loves you and brings you happiness. When everything else is gone, responsibility is all we have left. Even if you don't feel that great, you can take solace in taking some burdens from others knowing that you are keeping the peace as well as relieving them of pressure because you know they would do the same even if they don't view it the same. When everyone else its arguing and bickering over who's doing what, you become the glue that hold everything together. If not for you, all hell would break loose and you become the most important element. I believe it was Jordan who said something along the lines of, if you can't fix the problem, at least don't make it worse.
I also experienced something like this were, at the darkest moments of depression, I surrounded myself with the biggest, most existential questions. And this sense of responsibility, this sense of "I have something to do here" and I should really get a grip on it was felt very vividly. Other words that I discovered a more true sense of which helped me greatly (and are connected to responsibility in my opinion) include "dedication", "focus", and "fun".
As a newly conservative gay man, I really appreciate this kind of exploration of responsibility and meaning that can be applied to my life. I'm grateful that i can confirm that becoming a parent was the most meaningful thing I could have done with my life, and have done so by adopting my nephew who was in need of that. THANK YOU JORDAN PETERSON! You've helped me more than I can say.
Hang in there Dr. JP, those few of us left who celebrate the ability to exercise common sense; we support you, we love you, and we hope you keep fighting for logic! ♥️
"You are not mature until someone else is more important than you." Perfectly stated, this is what I keep saying, that my mental health got so much better since I had my child, because life was not about me anymore. What I still dont understand clearly is why my quite severe anxiety seemed to have tamed since then as well, I would have expected it to grow...
I man with a why can bear any how. I would guess that the stress that leads to anxiety probably increased as you expected, but the unexpected part was likely a massive increase in the ability to endure that stress.
@@reasonablyserious women tend to love children a bit more than men (their partner). Its possible she just means she was still selfish minded in her relationship and fun focused, til her child came along and she realized life is more than just yourself. I know too many unhappy adults who never reached that stage, very sad.
Kids need a mother and a father. Its like yin and yang (not to sound cliche). The two forces between the two constantly push against each other and create the perfect place for a growing baby. You NEED that balanced energy. Most of the issues in our society stem from an imbalance of this family energy that the child didnt receive and is struggling to take control over through force, manipulation and other things. Life doesnt have to be perfect. But we do need to be aware of what perfect would look like, and I think the conversation is slowly moving away from reality toward some sort of "accept every weakness as the new normal" but we just cant do that, respectfully. Love you Dave. Glad to see Dr. Peterson on DW. Thanks for the tough but thoughtful discussion.
True, a good mother and father is the ideal, but two good mothers or fathers is better than a good mother and a bad father, or a bad mother and a good father. I really don't think a child will benefit from having parents of both genders if at least one of them is bad at the job.
I just started watching the video so I don't know if this comes up later lol. But from reading some of the comments, all I can think about is straight couples who have children but then divorce or seperate, or if you grow up in an environment where your parents aren't present. This can happen regardless of sexual orientation where the mother abandons the child or the father abandons the child, and if you have an uncle or an aunt or another family member to help out that's better than nothing. It also makes me think about the whole concept of adoption and the fact that adopted children often never get to be with their actual mothers and fathers. But there are so many family dynamics involved for me to really say one way is better than the other, because a gay couple who loves their child and is there for them throughout their lives is much healthier than a straight couple who abandons them.
Respectfully, this entire convo made me cringe. Starting with Dave talking about his primary motivation for being a parent coming out of a deep desire to "self-realize" more fully (an oddly circular narcissistic motivation to defeat narcissism), and then talking about about the surrogacy process without addressing the ethics of it. Ultimately, though, Jordan is right that we don't know enough to successfully predict outcomes for motherless children, so it may well be that kids are better off with both mother/ father and anything deviating from this norm creates unanticipated risk. A question for Dave would be: is it worth it to bring a child into the world and expose them to that risk because one has such a deep desire to self-realize? Now, everyone has the right to make a morally compromised choice, but let's be honest if/when discussing it and not sugarcoat the issues. And this is, in fact, what bothered me the most: there is an awful lot of sugarcoating here. Jordan was extremely gentle and handled the discussion with kid gloves, obviously because this is personal to his friend and touches on decisions/commitments that have already been made. It really makes you wonder though why neither Jordan nor Dave usually show the same generosity, the same level of care, respect, and benefit of the doubt when addressing other people dealing with similarly complex, morally touchy issues. Tough love for everyone, but kid gloves for Dave Rubin and his choices.
isn’t “self realize” the best thing for him or men though? How many young men have been confronted with the fatherhood bridge and been afraid to move to the next level? I don’t think it’s narcissistic, it’s admirable. A man realizing it’s time to grow up and quit pretending he’s a mature adult and finally become a father. but that’s just my 2 cents
@BVale I agree with you, but Dave didn't quite use your words. And also, if the goal is really to become the best person one can be, wouldn't adopting a child in need, and gifting them a stable and happy life, be a better way to accomplish it? How is foregoing adoption, and choosing instead the more expensive and high-tech route of surrogacy, not inherently selfish or narcissistic? Again, he has the right to make that choice, but we shouldn't be manipulated into thinking it's a noble one.
@BVale I wasn't making a statement about same-sex couples -- simply pointing out that choosing to become a parent for the reasons stated in the video, and then going about it in the way described in the video, didn't seem particularly noble or altruistic or admirable considering alternatives. And I was pointing out there was no discussion in the video about the ethical dimension of these choices, which struck me as unusual at least for JP, who is always willing to risk offending others presumably for the sake of speaking truth.
@BVale I think adoption by same-sex couples might be more common than you think. I have three gay friends who have each adopted a child - and I can tell you those kids are very lucky to have ended up with such smart, capable and loving parents.
I grew up in rural ohio. No gay anything acceptable. Had a child with a woman at 19. Everyone knew I was gay growing up but I suppressed it. Ran away from the child and mother , transitioned into a “trans female” and lived as that person for 10 years away from everything I’d known before. I studied spirituality and found acceptance and love for my soul through meditation. I moved home. Faced all the things I’d been running from and detransitioned. Now I live my life as a gay man. In my home town. I vote red mostly. Love this country and am blessed that the man who married my child’s mother came into the picture and took him in as his own before he knew any different. We are all in good terms. Life is all about navigating while finding understanding that we all have different trauma as children that lead us to hopefully finding ways to heal. Study consciousness, the spirit and the brain heart connection. Whoever reads this . I pray you find your way. I believe in you! Geno
The difference between adoption and IVF is that adoption exists to find the best parents for a child in need, IVF exists to fulfill a desire of adults to have children, who always miss one of their biological parents. They are made that way intentionally.
Not always. There are straight couples who use their own eggs and sperm for IVF and then the fertilized embryo is implanted into the same woman's uterus. But even in this case ethics and most certainly health risks are up for debate.
Empirical evidence must give way to theory. I have reared four children and no matter how much time, nurturing, bottle feeding, comforting, skin contact. You name it every feminine trait I could perform they still gravitated towards my wife for certain comforts because that was their preferred choice when given the choice. It appeared to be instinctive programming. It's as simple as that. A man makes a poor mother and a woman makes a poor father. Dave can have 20 fridges of breast milk but it's not just the milk babies want its the breast. I just didn't have a tittie and that's the difference. Do they want what's best for a child or what's best for Dave and Dave? What would a child prefer?
You're a very intelligent man sir ☺️ (Also it's the same sadly for single Mothers.....when they try to raise sons without Father's it goes horribly wrong 😥...(maybe the odd few exceptions I know) but sons especially need that masculine energy guidance. Both Mother's & Father's equally bring many important aspects into a child's upbringing..... It can go sadly so horribly wrong with single parents 😔 statistics are everywhere...plus well, just look around 😔
I’ve been an out gay man for over 20 years and this the first time I’ve heard a realistic and ration conversation about gay couples and family. Thank you 🙏🏼
I really like Rubin, but, for the first time, I was put off by the fact that he is only able to create the “perfect family,” because he is wealthy. Something feels very unnatural and off, to me. Maybe, if two people can’t naturally pro-create, they should adopt???? Just wondering out loud, here. 🤷🏻♀️
@@betholabecker3219 I am actually not a huge fan of Dave Rubin… and the designer baby thing is a bit off putting. But I appreciate that they’re really digging into the complexities and realities of gay parenting. They acknowledge some natural truths about the importance of mothers and strong female role models. The nuance is appreciated
@@SeffiesTurn Well, I’m not one to throw the baby out with the bath water....I definitely appreciate Rubin quite a bit. Also kind of wondering if Pederson was not affirming via the back door???? Like I said earlier, I’m wondering this out loud.....and yes, I think this is a great conversation, with many facets to consider. I just can’t shake the uncomfortable feeling, that, if you’re a gay couple, you can only become a parent, if you’re rich.....😬
I love that after a couple years I just now finding out Dave is gay. That’s how it should be. He doesn’t make it about him or his sexuality it’s about being a good person. Love it. Go Dave
Yes, I support gay people but I hate the LGBT organisation. Being gay is fine but I don't want people to be gay in front of my face, the same goes for straight people.
Or just let ppl express themselves? Dafuq💀 besides straight ppl "make it abt themselves" all the time have you seen the clothes they put their babies in "lock up your daughters" or "ladies man" I'd argue that's way scarier than any gay person. Besides the amount of straight men scared of anything remotely feminine says a whole lot more abt straight ppl than it does abt gay ppl "making it abt themselves". Also sexuality doesn't have a "look" to it so u not knowing he was gay was probably because u catagorize gay ppl (and probably ppl in general) based of off stereotypes.......do better
The critical component of child-rearing is the emotional health of the parent, whether they are married, single, gay, straight, or what have you. So many of us who grew up with $hit parents would gladly trade them in, had we to do it over again, for any emotionally healthy parent(s) who possessed the ability and desire to emotionally support us throughout our formative years.
Very naïve model of the situation. Its clear you don't understand what its like to be raised as an adoptee, or to suffer a primal wound from infant separation from your mother.
@@Col-T-Invest no he’s not wrong as someone who had many foster brothers the most important thing for them is to be in a loving home that’s rule #1, these are kids who just want to be loved every brother that I’ve had from the foster care they were always very hyper and just wanted attention 24/7 it seemed like lol but that’s because they need affirmation from time to time that they are still in a loving family
@@jennifervert2601 It's a hard thing to measure. But that wasn't really the point of my post. Given the choice between an emotionally healthy gay couple - two men or two women - vs two jacked in the head heterosexuals, one would be a fool not to choose an emotionally healthy environment over a toxic environment to be raised in. If you actually had a choice, that is. It's more like the luck of the draw. You get what you get.
I have a question. The 5 IQ point for breastfed kids... is this related to spicifically being fed breast milk or is this intelligence increase related to the child creating a bond with the mother during breast feeding?
Breast feeding due to the omega-3 sustenance provided by the breast milk. Additionally, prenatal omega-3 absorption also helps. And it's important to note that it's perfectly fine to breastfeed up until 4.
They don’t know. At least one study has come out showing that children of women who INTENDED to breastfeed (but for some reason or other could not) have similar outcomes to children who were actually breastfed, and this suggests that it’s not necessarily the milk or breastfeeding itself, but it may be correlated to some other quality of the mother-perhaps the willingness to make the physical sacrifice and time commitment of breastfeeding correlates with more committed and attentive mothers. It’s unclear.
Kind of amazing how similar my life experiences have been compared to Dave’s. I’m virtually 100% straight acting… never fit in among the “gay” crowd… _definitely_ always been attracted to men… and took me a while to come to terms with it… grappling with the conflict between my traditionalist/conservative nature and my sharply non-traditionalist orientation… willing and eager to discuss the uncomfortable questions/objections without getting defensive or offended (very often agreeing with critics)… hopeful for a future with a less distinctive _LGBTQ+_ _community™,_ as opposed to one which largely blends in naturally… The big differences are that I’m 20 years younger (27 vs 46), and I’m pretty staunchly opposed to gay parenting (though perhaps age difference plays a role in that). I just believe it’s deeply wrong to bring a child into life while knowingly depriving them of a mother… I mean, mothers are almost literally EVERYTHING to a child. Even to adults… what could bring more _sorrow_ to one’s life but losing their mother? Even in old age…? (Losing a child brings anguish, not sorrow). Anyway, I just can’t shake the belief that gay parenting is at some level selfish, though I can see why others would disagree.
Thanks for being that way. I sometimes think to myself that real self-acceptance ("pride") of a gay person is not wearing a costume and shouting SJW-ish codes but casually telling a colleague "So I was with my boyfriend at this restaurant yesterday..." . Like it's normal. By acting like it is normal, without asking for anyone's permission, you make it more normal. By acting like it's a "we" vs "them", like you came from another planet, and by making yourself unrelatable on purpose just to feel more loved by your own group - you distance yourself and make the societal split wider on both sides.
I totally agree. Are you also opposed to becoming a surrogate parent or to adopt? There are plenty of unwanted kids that could benefit from loving parents, gay or not.
Just curious on your opinion of 2 women having a kid together? I get everyone is emphasizing the importance of not having a biological mother due to the bonding that occurs during pregnancy but in lesbian couples you do have that component. So is 2 men a slightly worse option than 2 women? I agree the ideal is a mother/father. After that parents with a balance of a masculine/feminine presence. After that 2 parents, same sex or otherwise. Single parenting with a good support system Then single with no support system falls last for me. Throwing another thing out there… many surrogacy, sperm, and egg donation situations have some type of open agreement where the child can choose to meet the bio donor either before or after 18.
For me, this gets close to the whole “missing the ideal” scenario. The idea that it is selfish to have children isn’t something I generally subscribe to because there’s always a more needy child out there, like those in foster care. Personally I’m more opposed to people that have no prior parenting experience adopting a kid with advanced trauma as many have in the foster care system rather than having an infant first and working through that trauma from the time they’re born. In the latter situation, you have time to grow and learn with the kid. In the former, you have to hit the ground running with an 8+ year old.
I'm a Jesus lover and He is all about love. I definitely believe in the nuclear family. However, big respect to Dave Rubin and his husband! You respect the nuclear family and want what's best for your children. You both are doing what you can to provide as much of a well balanced life of love, health and happiness. I respect the commitment and love for kids ❤️ Blessings to you both and your new family!
Jesus was not all about Love. Jesus was about denying yourself, picking up your cross and following him. They need to deny their disordered desires and stay celibate.
@JenniferMiller-sx1xn And what makes you so confident about the "disordered" nature of their desires? A book written by prehistoric goat herders who had slavery, stone beating and even human sacrifice? That's your "unbiased" source of moral judgement, I suppose.
Being a person raised with two moms in the early 90's when that was unheard of , & now being an adult , in my personal experience i can say a child needs to be raised by a mother & a father. The nuclear (mother & father) family is pivotal . This doesn't mean i lacked any love or nurturing , but i missed out on what a father bring to a table. Love that this conversation is being had regardless of someone's stance on it.
Fair comment and I don't want to pry but I am guessing that you were the product of a previous relationship of your biological mum, who later ended up with another woman? Not the result of any scientific intervention like a sperm doner and artificial insemination? You don't have to answer.
Totally agreed, having both, a father and a mother, is ideal. But in real life, just like you described, things are often not ideal.
I grew up in a divorced family with a father who never gave a damn for my existence, so I definitely feel a huge part was missing. Far from ideal for sure, different from your situation yet similar in this sense.
I like what Jordan and David said about the ideal: “ We all fall short of the ideal.” At some level, we all have to learn to compensate for some deficiencies. So, the point here is not to condemn anyone, but to learn and make it work in a healthy and successful way at the society level.
@@flora5398 It might work well for Dave Rubin. He is very well off and the child is probably blessed, but the average gay relationship can be quite volatile and hedonustic. When every gay couple feels entitled and demands renting a womb, the female body becomes a commodity and many will become groomed and exploited.
Eh, I think that's in your head. Fathers and mothers are all unique
On the breast feeding and intelligence point: Dave said he has two freezers for breast milk because they’ve done their research but it may not be just the breast milk nutrients alone that causes the increased IQ points but also the nurturing/closeness that occurs during breast feeding.
Yes. Macroeconomic view of emotional bond with both gender parents is IMPORTANT
Possibly the least they could do is to include the biological mothers in the family ...even to the point of breastfeeding.
@@clarkwatson3217 That is correct in a way, nothing increases IQ *potential*, but many things increase IQ.
Sorry. If that was the case 75% of America would be lacking.
Breastfeeding is Not common any more..
Mom's body actually makes custom antibodies for baby in real time based on what she absorbs from baby's saliva. It's astonishing.
I still cannot live at peace with the fact that we've reduced women and men to sperm donors/ egg donors/ pregnancy carriers/ breast milk makers... With all due respect to what Dave said I wonder if he would have the "luxury" to choose a surrogate mother from a variety of women if no money was involved. In fact, very few countries allow paid surragacy and even in the permissive, highly egalitarian Scandinavian countries it's illegal. We will never know the truth about how it affects children because all academic research is biased to prove that gay parents are just as good as a mother and father. That said, I appreciate these honest people, Jordan and Dave, who discuss these tough issues in a sincere way.
so true. Its hubris, in my opinion. We are down a slope i dont know how we going to claw ourselves out of.
Even i feel its a bit icky.
You can thank Peterson for not bringing up woman's dignity, too.
You are a hypocrite..you either support or don't.. when you don't agree with any of what Dave said ,you simply don't appreciate the conversation and its ok. Why are you confusing people with your stance ?
@@amirbagali8414 a hypocrite speaks his mind truthfully? Stop projecting
Personally speaking (as a gay man), I would never intentionally deprive a child of their mother. The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. And even though my mother was a traumatised crazy person, I’m still great full I had a mother.
"The mother/child relationship is the only constant relationship throughout time and culture. "
Mmmmmh, no it isn't. Just take a look at how the richer mothers would give their child to the nurse and barely take care of them.
It makes no difference to have a mother or not.
I mean, fair enough. But adopting implies that the child already not in an ideal situation and already lacks a mother
I agree, my mother was crazy to put it mildly, but the fact some straight couples are crazy is a total non sequitur.
I am not going to be a gay dad, I ask what I can do for a child, not what a child can do for me. So no pets or kids for me.
I am not convinced a gay couple is worse than, for the sake of example, a single mom. But the question needs to be answered with evidence, not by loud activists.
It simply doesn't seem right. Glad this couple has the resources to do it, but why go through so many hoops only to bring children to the world without mothers? They've had to hire so many surrogate mothers: egg donors, the surrogates themselves, breastmilk donors, night nurses etc., yet there is still no real mother to have a mother-child relationship with. It's a sad state of affairs. Adopting would have been better.
@@Nonalhomophobie And do you see how those children without a present mother turn out?
I think an even more important conversation underlies the gay parenting one, and that would be the ethics of SURROGACY.
Well said!
how is the ethics of surrogacy in question?
"Surrogacy" is newspeak hiding the truth of "rich people buying babies".
@@AMan-xy3lx taking away a baby from a mother? They are already bonding in a very early stage of the pregnancy, the body is fully prepared for the baby like the breasts for example, i would rather die than give my child away
Surrogacy commercialises human body parts, i.e. the uterus. It’s on a slippery slope and creates a market for exploitation.
They mentioned that there's a connection that a child has with their biological parent which is hard to describe. But then they didn't extend that to the biological mother. You can't erase the fact that those kids will, in reality, have a biological parent out there, in the world, that they are connected to biologically, but have no contact with. I believe that matters
Edit: Just to clarify, there's a contradiction here, which is that biological relatedness is so important that a gay couple should pursue this way of having kids. But at the same time, the biological relatedness of the resulting child to the biological parent that won't be in their life is regarded as not important. That's the point. Either it's important, or it's not. If it is, then you're taking the child away from a parent. If it's not, then why pursue this? Why not just adopt?
yes of course it matters
Also the breastfeeding thing. The reason why it's effective might have to do more with the connection with the mother, than with the substance of breast milk. So having the milk from the bottle might not work as well.
Not everyone gets to know their biological parents (for any number of reasons), and they still somehow manage to live happy fulfilled lives.
Greays should not have kids for several reasons....
Rubin is a fake concervativ and an egocentric BS'er!
@@lucasdarianschwendlervieir3714 infant monkey study proves this.
The connection is more important!
I would love to see you two have this talk again in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, and 20 years
Great idea
That’s what I was thinking…
Just my thoughts, but I don’t believe any child would be like
“yes, this is a great idea…let’s be born in this way.”
Just because he and his partner CAN do all of this doesn’t necessarily mean they
SHOULD do this and that it will turn out well
@@iaintwonderwoman5720 there is a reason we don't let children have that kind of power, it creates a generation of gender confused weirdos who want to lop off their boobs.
Right now it's all theory. The reality is never what you expect and I want to see them address it.
This should be higher
How a bsolutely WONDERFUL to listen to these men talk about something so difficult without arguing and becoming angry and bitter. This is awesome . Love both of these men.
"You're not truly mature until you have someone in your life who is more important than you are."
True wisdom so rarely spoken
Well said Ivanov! Self Uber alles
Greays still should bit have kids for several reasons!
Rubin is a fake concervativ!
maybe the reasons for doing your best is for that other person however
@@AleksandarIvanov69 It's only a contradiction if you take the words he used very literally. Obviously when he said "...in your life who is more important than you are", he meant in relation to your *perspective* of your life. You even kinda supported this idea by saying you have to reach a point in wellness (maturity) to care for someone else's wellness.
And besides, the quote was really talking about maturity - not importance. Yes you are the most important figure in your life, but your perspective on what's most important is the primary determining factor for being a mature person.
@@AleksandarIvanov69 There's no contradiction. Their life is more important than yours = if it comes down to it, you will lay down your life for theirs. Sure, only a fool does so when it isn't needed. But in the end, the statement that you have to be well is false. It's possible for you to be well to do so, but it isn't necessary.
Jordan you are looking very healthy. I’m enjoying watching your journey.
funny you said "journey", cos' his face looks like a road-map!!
What a lovely thing to say! And I'm happy to agree. Just wanted to thank you for doing what many don't....for actually stating the compliment and happy comment. 🌻🌱
Children don't like shifting primary caregivers...I can attest to that. I've been a nanny in many different types of households. One thing in common, the kids all had behavioral issues. Well, except one family where the mom was working from home and they knew she was there for them. My heart breaks for kids who see mommy leave for a job that she doesn't actually need.
Indeed! I've seen countless children negatively impacted in this way (maternal deprivation, attachment wounds, emotional neglect, etc) in my work with young children and their families.
Titus 2.
I hated that my mother worked all my life. I whish she was there for me. When I have kids i definitely want to work as little as possible to give them my love and attention. I have often wondered if our drepression and anxiety crisis stems from not having our mothers with us as children.
@@luannesantana9430I wonder this as well. And weak or unavailable fathers, too.
@@Sisterlisk Yes, I agree. Parents should be stable and reliable to their children.
Jordan always makes me cry. Every realization I’ve gained from his perspectives are deeply ingrained within me and I’m forever grateful for this mans life.
Homosexual behavior is depravity. Every one has a conscious. That is
the tool used to make choices; or judgement calls.
@@paulanelson1629 What does this mean?
@@paulanelson1629 Homosexuality is no behavior and it is not depraved.
He’s gotten me to think deeply about a lot of things and put some others into perspective so well, I couldn’t articulate them better if I tried. He’s truly a one of a kind and very grateful for him.
Homosexuality is definitely a behavior.
I think we need to address the trauma a baby feels being separated from it's birth mother. If couples want to adopt -great! But just because babies can't later remember their birth, it does still shape their first impressions of the world and makes a subconscious impact. I've helped people in therapy specifically work through this anxiety and fear of abandonment. And having worked in drug rehabilitation centers, I know that almost half of the kids of our facility were adopted as children. Most of them grew up not knowing they were adopted -yet it obviously had an emotional impact! And these kids all came from wealthy families with all the best resources.
Babies in the womb know their mother's scent, voice and heartbeat. If that child is never held by it's mother and handed to a new couple - it's still going to instinctively know that mother is missing - gone!
Choosing that when you don't have to is creating new suffering in the world. I think you can only believe surrogacy is an act of love out of total ignorance.
Whelp the kid's going to suffer, better end it's life!
Wait, isn't this the argument from the pro-choice people?
@@adamgates1142 I'd suggest adoption or becoming foster parents over surrogacy. There is no reason the parent's desire/instinct for biological children should outweigh the wellbeing of an infant. It's cruel to create fresh trauma in the world where it's not necessary.
@@adamgates1142 Sounds like killing the kid is the obvious solution at this point right?
After listening to this conversation, I understood why homosexuality is not an optimal option, regardless of religious views. The complication is just too much. The best option - 2 parents of both sexes playing their roles as intended.
I completely agree... Dave might have read all he can about skin to skin contact etc but nothing replaces the bond that is nine months in the making. Absolutely there are bad unfit mothers, but a child's first connection is with the person who carried it and I believe surrogacy should not be so lightly taken. The financial aspect of it is the least of the problems it poses
I have a friend who was given up for adoption at four months by a mother who badly wanted to keep him. Though he was adopted by a wonderful, loving family, he yearned to be reunited with his biological mother. He finally met her again when he was 53. He told me that he knew her smell, he knew the feel of her skin and he knew her voice before she spoke. The point is, there is more between a baby and his/her mother than we know and should that connection be disregarded to satisfy the wants of adults who want an instant family? Kids aren’t a possession.
This conversation is a minefield that is dressed up as something that can be intellectually navigated. I don’t have the answer any more than Dr. Peterson and Dave Rubin do but I do think it’s wrong to experiment with a child’s life.
Dave is a fake pro lifer. He is purposely ripping two babies from their biological mothers for his own selfish desires. His husband and him are hypocritical gay men that envy women.
Your friend's situation sounds devastating to both mother and baby...But what point are you making about all of the children whose mothers do want/need to give them up? Those children need families. I cannot understand why some people oppose gay couples adopting, when there are so so many religious nuclear families who say "adopting just isn't right for us." Why can't we think about what's at least next best for kids?
@@kellymckay544 i think that there’s importance in the intentions. Even though in principle it is the same, a child separated from his/her mother, one is an alternative from a bad situation (a mother can’t care for the baby, for any reason) vs a couple actively searching and creating the circumstances (egg donor, Ivf, surrogacy and all in between) in order for them to have a baby. In my opinion, the first scenario is trying to lessen the pain/bad situation and the second is creating it
@@marianescamilla oh yeah I Kinda understand your point
@@marianescamilla You are right in a way. They are creating the situation. Maybe adopting kids in the system may be more ideal. But all the criticism, though it may be fair, it's also not put on straight people. Forty percent divorce, many kids are in unstable situations ect. The criticism is in relation to an ideal that most don't achieve. So it may be fair, it's also not easy to put that ideal onto gay people without realising it's complicated.
It is not just the eggs, Dave. Women carry babies for around 9 months in their bodies paying a big price in terms of their health and sharing nutrients from their own bodies. The levels of stress that women may experinece during their pregnancy also impact whether certain genes get triggered in fetus itself. Higher levels of stress in a pregnant woman= significantly higher probability of health and development related issues. There are multiple studies available that show this link. So it is not just sourcing the egg for fertilization but also growing developing that egg in the womb.
@@monikagolab8892 men create, women nurture.
@@h-dawg6462 no women create life
@@h-dawg6462 Both men and women create and nurture.
I’m pretty sure he’s aware of all that. And that the wonderful ladies who are having the babies are well looked after and appreciate the financial side of this transaction
@@monikagolab8892 It doesn't seem that women create life. Women don't experience creating a person. But they certainly experience carrying and bringing the life into the world.
God is the Creator.
I wish all people had wisdom to discuss important issues in such a civilized and respectful manner: exchange of experience and knowledge, logical thinking, empathy, the desire to really understand the problem and find ways to solve it. These conversations are priceless.
Dave seems like a nice guy with good intentions and this was a great chat. I just never seem to feel comfortable when people talk about mixing and matching eggs and sperm and having surrogates and choosing a mother 'like it's tinder' and all that, it just feels so unnatural to the point where I feel that it becomes a purely selfish act for the couple and they are not considering how the child will feel having been created that way.
Sounds like eugenics
You feel like that because it’s true. Many years ago a saw a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Apu, who was trying very hard to have children and failing, “Children Happen”. I am not saying that fertility treatment is wrong, but people are willing to do so many bizarre stuff in order to have that “traditional family picture” they criticize so much. Sometimes you just can’t have certain lifestyles and it’s okay. Many of my grandma sisters have no children simply because they couldn’t find a husband in time. If you ask me thats harder than being homossexual, because you have everything there to have children its just that it didn’t happen because life is that way. People just want to be famous on instagram now.
As opposed to the millions of people choosing to be single parents or shoving their kids in care and working 12 hours a day?
Seriously. Their kids will be well loved and 100% cared for substantially better than any child from a single parent or kid in care almost the moment they are born..
His kids have family assisting.. which North America has forgot about doing..
His kids are growing up with two parents..
Im kind of in a same boat as you with the issue but, i also see the cultural shift and realise that, what we have had doesnt have to be. That being said, deep down i cant still accept it, even gay marriage. I am accepting it on pure rationale as ''it is not my place to deny gays to get married and have kids''.
At the end of the day, i am still part of the old culture with old thinking and i dont think it can be changed. Eventually death will change it and rest of the world moves on however it sees fit!
@@Nimai_Aquino Yes that's true, many of them want to destroy the traditional family while at the same time wanting to recreate it for themselves synthetically, it's very odd really. I know people who are getting older and have no husband and want kids and they seem heartbroken because they know the chance is slipping away, it is sad to see.
Thank you for these tough conversations. I'm a gay woman who loves kids but I don't think it would be good to raise a child without a father. I just think two women would smother the child and maker her/him soft. The lgbt community needs to stop pretending that science and gender differences aren't real. We need to wake up and talk about the truth..Not Lil nas x videos.
I personally think that God made the good gay and trans people to be extra caregivers, mentors and artistic geniuses. Think about how many great works of music, literature and art wouldn't exist without gay minds. Our solitude and outsider lifestyle helps make us who we are. I'm happy that society is more accepting but I wouldn't change who I am for anything. God bless you Dr. Peterson. Congrats on the baby Dave! I'm happy for you. I'm just expressing my personal opinion for my own life on choosing to not have kids.
As a same sex attracted woman as well, I do not want to have kids with another woman even if I feel compelled for the very same reasons you described above.
Its so refreshing to hear a self aware dissenting opinion on the topic. I dont necessarily agree but I respect your honesty and self examination.
@@monikagolab8892 if God actually did make mankind then that would mean he created me the way I naturally am which is gay. I was 100% born this way. I am spiritual but not very religious. I was brought up Catholic.
Check out Them Before Us, by Katy Faust! :)
The science says that children raised by same sex couples are not only in good condition but also likely do better in school, compared to heterosexual couples.
That's science, follow it if you speak so fondly of it
I had a child with a lady, she struggled with some of her own demons and decided what was best for the child was to give up the baby. Her mother stepped in and took care of him with me. He knows his grandmother as mumma, and he knows his biological mom as his mother. He understands the difference now even at 5 years old. His grandmother is everything to him. He still enjoys seeing his biological mom but is not very attached.
@@Viriyascybin thank you. I love your taste in podcasts
she did so well with her daughter why not a redo? lmao
@@SkyValleyStuff Nothing wrong with trying again. We don't always get it right the first time.
The wisest person is the one who's made the most mistakes.
This is the age of Grandmothers long forgotten.
Time to remember her love, strength and kindness.
yeah but whats his wc lvl?
My experience being raised by two dads. My biological mom is my dads sister me and her are very close and i have four sisters one was adopted before the rest of us was born. My parents are professionals and gave us an amazing life. One dad is a nurse the other one a maths teacher at university. We lived and live better than most people I know. My dads have been together for 28 years but got married in 2015. So it’s pretty stable one one dad was bad cop the other was good cop.
Do you realise that what are you mumbeling there does not makes sense?
I'm happy to hear that your parents gave you a good life.
That story reeks of bot propaganda.
@@RetroMMA he just described his life anything that opposes your narrow world wiev is propaganda right?
@@ejejenrnjrejhsndjjeekbeehh8435 Narrow world view? Every Democrat and most of the entire world was against gay marriage not so long ago - what changed? Did we suddenly become a more enlightened society or is something else at play here?
People as a whole are weak minded and absolutely affected by propaganda. It was demonstrated with Project Mockingbird and (most especially) the lefts insistence on shutting down free speech, not reporting on it or the 'othering' of people that resist their radical views?
Imagine being a baby. All you've know for your entire life of 9 months is your mother. Her heartbeat, her voice muffled through flesh, her energy, her love, her hand on belly on you, her soft womb.
You go through the birth process, the most wild otherworldly transition, just you and her.
You are suddenly thrust into the world and where is she? Where is the smell and sound and heartbeat and skin and energy and love of the only human you know? The one you are primed in every atom of every cell to be held by in this moment, nursed by, adored by.
You're thrust on to some strangers.
Your primal body thinks your mother is dead. Thats what registers. Terror. Something is wrong. Where is my mother, my everything? You never feel, see, hear, taste your mother again.
The most profound abandonment wound that will shape every aspect of you for the rest of your life. Surrogacy is not okay.
Imagine growing a baby for 9 months. Growing a whole new organ for her. Weaving her together from the nourishment of your flesh and blood and spirit. Feeling nauseous and exhausted and swollen. Feeling her kick
and hiccup and squirm. Feeling the fear of what labour might bring. Going through the intensity of birth, from the early sensations to the "I'm can't do this" to the ring of fire, to then hear your baby cry... The one that
EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY is longing to hold, kiss, smell, meet.... And see this baby passed to some one else.
To have a doctor reach inside you to yank out your placenta, to have your soft tender belly violently "massaged", to have just done the most miraculous thing, but have no squirmy baby on your chest. To feel the
chasm between the most primal biological love you've ever known, and the intellectual idea that "oh no, thats not my baby, that's their baby.
To be wheeled away to heal and have no baby.
To feel your swollen leaky breasts and have no baby.
To feel the rawness of your v@gina but have no baby.
To bleed for weeks but have no baby.
To feel your infected C-section scar, and have no baby.
Did you learn this at bible studies?
WOW, I never thought of it from that perspective before, Daisy. Even being married for 36 years and as a father of four and knowing the deep & different connection my wife has with the kids I never thought about what it would be like for the CHILD to have that bond shattered. Thank you.
@@dnd6379 As much as I probably agree with the stance you are probably insinuating through that response I also think this response is ludicrously dumbed down to the points being raised
I don't think we are prepared to consider this point fully, as a society. But, it hunk you are forgetting that newborns have an amazing gift of not remembering what happened to them for the first 3 or so years. Look to all those people who turned out ok and happy even though they had to grow up without their biological mom from the start of their life... What you describe make sense, but it is not the defining factor in how person's life will turn out to be in my opinion.
I have such deep respect for this conversation. I myself raised my grand daughter from 6 months to the age of 7. That last year she longed for a “normal” family, a mother and father. She was blessed in that her father remarried and was able to provide this for her. The normal family, male, female, is likely to always be normal. You are mapping this out. I do not envy you the road ahead. You think you can deal with whatever the world throws your way. But when you child says “I want a normal family,” that’s hard. I put her in play therapy. Because while she was excited about the normal family, she was torn about leaving me. Play therapy works wonders. You have much wisdom, my friend, and with Jordan Peterson as a resource I think you will draw a very clear map for those who follow.
Bravo!
Your are a very loving, wise grandma!
It's really so wise and kind and selfless of you to put it like this about her father being able to provide the kind of family the child longed for. She's lucky to have you. You're not possessive of her.
No doubt she wanted the idealized/romanticized version of the nuclear family because she had become fully aware of it via the media, you and the people around her. I doubt there is anything instinctive about it, that it is the best and greatest.
There is a really interesting book on this topic called "Them Before Us" which I think is pretty important for Gay parents to read and consider. I am adopted and there are many things that I feel about my situation that I will never be able to share with my adoptive parents out of fear of hurting them. They didn't do it to me, and while I am grateful for my life, and I love my family which was ideal in every way, I still experience a deep sense of loss and this feeling of being rootless. When a child is brought into this world disconnected from a biological parent that is a loss, and those parents trying to raise those children would be well served to understand it as such and be sensitive to that since there child is unlikely to ever express it honestly with them.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Your experience is a voice for such situations as this,
that should be heard.
If not, it remains very one sided.
NO one family is the ideal, but we all should at least try to be. The point, I think, We already opened up pandoras box, now we have to figure out how to best live with what was let out.
I too was adopted and I understand the feelings you shared. I found a road around it by making a decision in my early adult years to embrace my adopted family as my family. I found that making an intentional choice which I spoke out loud to myself allowed me the ability to bond my heart with my adopted family. My sister's who also are adopted haven't been able to make that choice and are still very much missing out in the bond that adoption can bring once the adopted makes that choice. What I still find lacking, even now at 46, is the love of a father (I was adopted by a single woman who was divorced). But I am learning that yhe Father's love is manifested in Christ, and I am learning to embrace it.
@@scintilae670 we can close it unless we are stupid and doomed to live in a hell of a society.
You are pro grooming
Whether you are a proponent of gay marriage or not, you have to respect Dave's attitude and willingness to discuss this. Same to Jordan. Whether you agree or not, you shouldn't hate the other person, but rather be willing to listen and discuss. Props to both.
I agree. I have always questioned if the children of gay parents would automatically be indoctrinated toward a gay predilection. I don't know the answer, but it's great that these questions can be asked without hatred for being curious
@@frenchappletarte3252 I know I'm gay since I was 7-8 yo, I was born in the late 80 and always seen straight couples kiss, and also my mother and father.
@@frenchappletarte3252 the answer is no
@@frenchappletarte3252 I find it so interesting how people think being Gay is like a being Christian like you can just become one and then live your life that way lol
@@spliced7383 it's naturally a point of confusion for a few reasons. I have witnessed gay men flirt with straight men and joke (not joke) that they were trying to 'turn' them. If a gay man thinks a person can be 'turned', then maybe homosexuality is a choice. There's also the nature vs nurture question. If homosexual behavior is biological and natural selection is a reality, how could homosexuality be hardwired biologically? No hate here, just observations and thoughts.
Well this is going to be interesting. On a side note, Jordan is looking very healthy. Glad to see him doing well. God bless you.
@@joeschmo6834 You mean anti-depressants? You make it sound as if he's known for binging cocaine. You're also wrong. He is still taking a psychotropic medication
Yes..he looks great…makes me so happy..how I adore this man!
@@lolcano2346 it was opiates, pain drugs, the same stuff junkies use but you can use your insurance to pay for it. Getting off that stuff is hard, don't down play that
@@tonytomato100 a) it was benzodiazapines
b) point to where I'm down-playing anything exactly?
@@Laocoon283 a) He took benzo's as prescribed by a mental health professional to address depression. You actually trying to compare that with what someone is typically referring to when they talk about substance abuse and addiction? gtfo
b) If that's your idea of 'getting high' then you're doing it wrong. Go get yourself a drinking problem or start smoking weed every day then get back to me mate
This is too much like buying and selling humans to me from the child to the surrogate mother, etc. People are not commodities. Children are a gift, not a right, and deserve to be raised by their biological mother and father in a committed, loving relationship. While families do not always live up to these standards, it should be the expectation and ideal. While single parents or same-sex couples may try to fill the need for care a child needs, they will always be lacking, and it should not be a situation that is voluntarily created.
Exactly, the kid suddenly has no access to the person that birthed them, person that they were hearing everyday for 9 months, person that they have strong bond with and that bond is broken now. That can't be good for the development of the child.
JBP literally doesn't care about your opinion, sadly.
@@Levi_Manifesto That seems like a fair point, and that bond exists in the mother as well changing how she interacts with the child.
@@Levi_Manifesto and it can't be good for the mother either.
Amen.
Dave is a great conversation partner for Jordan. He's got enough gusto himself that he doesn't just go silent anytime Jordan speaks and he's not afraid to talk over Jordan when he has something to say.
Not being able to have children after completing my physician training obligations was a very disturbing and difficult situation for me. No longer is it taboo for women in medicine to have children during training. During my career, I hope I had a strong impact about this issue for the multitude of female medical students and residents who came for training at a major teaching medical center in Boston. I also find peace in helping my siblings out by interacting often these 30 years with my nieces and nephews. Rescuing dogs and cats have also been part of my therapy. Anyone who wants but could not have children can have a great life.
Adopting a child WAS not allowed by a single female or when married, after the age 40. It is much better availability these days.
Awe. I'm sorry sorry as a doc I can relate to the training and the difficulty it is to have kids during training. Kudos to you for finding peace with your decision to wait til after but then be unable and for helping other young doctors to forge ahead with personal decisions before it is too late and not worry about judgement!!
I personally quit a surgery resi when the chief said,, we can't have kids til we are done (in 5 years) I said f y and quit. And transferred to anesthesia and was pregnant first month. I'd never have done it differently. I couldn't have handled the pregnancies at an older age. Plus I was too educated to know how much more risky it was to wait. Seems to be off the gay couple topic but again much respect to you. And I think we each feel diff about whether one can be whole and complete without having a child and that applies to gay couples. Can life be wonderful? Sure! But I think each Soul, has a different path , and none of us can ever be in another's body and walk their path on this earth this go around (soul wise)
@@venesaingold9390that’s soo horrible a married couple should always have the right to adopt. How are kids suppose to be raised ethically and with morals if they aren’t expose to it?? So stupid!
@@venesaingold9390oh my bad my bad you said after the age of 40 okay I thought it was frowned upon to adopt in general!
I can relate. I'm not a doctor but I spent a good amount of time in school and have found myself single and childless in my 30s. I could still meet someone and have a family but the chances are smaller every day. It's great that you've taken your energy and invested it in your nieces, nephews, and students. I'm sure it has not gone to waste.
I think more research is needed on the impact on children being raised by gay parents. Especially since more gay couples are deciding to raise children. I knew a girl raised by Lesbians and she's been in therapy most of her life to this day. I don't think having babies should be a right, we are raising a very confused society.
The children of gay parents are usually molested as well. If we won’t protect the child from Dave and his “husband” then hopefully God will.
...EVERYBODY should be in therapy, but ok.
Brave New World. Nobody gets to tell people they don't get to have children.
Look into the Them Before Us group founded by Katy Faust. She was raised by same sex parents and presents the information thats usually glossed over about the negative effects from it. And it's a similar philosophy that children have the right to their parents, but adults don't have the right to have children.
@@RachelDee Jordan should bring her on for round 2 with Dave.
Surrogacy may "benefit" the "parents", but it is deliberately creating a child who will have a deep origin problem. We all naturally want to know where we came from, and that the origin connects us to security and love. No matter how much you read up about skin-to-skin contact, get in frozen breast milk etc, you can't replicate this. And in this case there's no mother, and bringing in some women to be around the baby doesn't fix that.
I find this tragic
Amen. There is a rationality behind God's commandments and now Western society is trying to change it with hubris and I personally feel that it is going to end like in Babel.
My thoughts exactly. We don't have children to fulfill our needs, but to fulfill theirs. Also, the ethical concerns behind surrogacy cannot be so easily dismissed and justified.
I know two donor children (both to lesbians) and they both have asked and wanted to meet thier biology dad. Worst part is their right was ripped as soon as their mothers signed on the dotted line.
There is a mother. But they chose to exclude her and she chose to exclude herself. Their motive is clear. Her motive was money, fair enough, or altruism. Either case I think it is deeply wrong. Like prostitution only she not only sold her body but her children.
We are more our bodies and blood than our popular culture addmits. Our bodies and who we literally come from matters. This is parenting like marraige before it becoming another vehicle of expressing personal prefrence. Only now say we love our children while throwing out one of their parents.
@@natashaharsh9793 yes. This is self love at the expense of child love as the first act of parenthood. It is a perverse inversion of the parent-child relationship; instead of the parent sacrificing for the child the child is robbed for the parent.
I wonder myself as a mother of 4 and currently nursing my 4 month old what that lack of connection might mean for a baby. Even if I don't always produce milk. my baby still nurses for comfort constantly. It's how he knows he is warm and safe because mommy is here. He actually begins to smile when he knows he is about to nurse and it calms him right down. Another thing as a mother I truly believe babies only need their mother. Children can need both but babies need mother. Mother is an infants entire world. They know only her...smell, taste, voice... Yes a mother is a baby's universe.
By now bad kids turn out from single mothers maybe they don’t need mothers
Naaah a fridge and night nurses will do!
@@joannasowinska6789
Bite your tongue.
You’re talking best case scenario but we all know mothers can be abusive, withholding and downright cruel. I loved and depended on my father for everything, he was my world, my mother and I had a very contentious relationship and we were never close until her later years when she became very ill, but my father was always the glue that kept our family together and that’s why if I had to choose between a mother or two dads I’d take the dads any day!
@@Hugatree1 i see, the opposite for me. Mother was my rock. Father was an evil person.
My daughter and her 3 young sons just moved in with us. (she fled an abusive relationship) I hadn't seen two of them in like 3 years and I never met the youngest. But I can attest that children are sensitive to people that are sensitive to their needs. The father was obviously abusive but mom is struggling and is disconnected on some levels with the children. (she is in counseling) however, the boys are thriving because my husband and I are plugged in. Discipline through love. They are happy and secure. I will continue to support her recovery and pray the father gets his crap fixed. The boys need both parents. But I will be damned if those children will go back to living their former lives. As one Christian woman to another God does not want us to stay in abusive relationships. Long-lasting relations aren't always happy ones.
He wont change. She can find a good partner who will father them. She needs to heal first though.
I agree with you that no one should stay in an abusive relationship. Children can benefit a lot from their Grandparents.
@@carolmartin8781 ❤️ the middle grandson, who is super shy and recluse, hung out with me and drew like 7 pictures of him and I holding hands with hearts all over it. And boy he was talking up a storm. I'm already seeing a positive change.❤️
@@kesakary I'm glad things are going well with your grandson. One of my grandchildren was sexually abused and abandoned by her parents at age three. She stayed with me, and the first year we did art projects together on a daily basis. She didn't like doing art alone, and insisted that I participate. It was just as therapeutic for me as it was for her. Take care.
I'm so glad she had you both to rely on. Obviously, she needed to escape those binds, since you hadn't been able to see them in so long. Disfunction does NOT love company. All the best to you.
The quality of this is so clear and the format is so refreshing. I think I like the direct this is going
Deliberately creating a baby to supply gay men with a child, separating the baby from its mother.. does not feel okay.
It is too cruel.. and selfish.
Many say having 2 loving men is better than an abusive mother. If the mother is abusive, then certainly the child should be taken away. But for me, 2 men raising a child together through a surrogate is just not natural.
I recently met 2 men - 1 Af American and 1 Caucasian, who implanted 2 eggs with sperm from each. Isn't that alone a little egotistical? They have 2 girls, fraternal twins, of 2 skin colors. 7 years old when I met them.
I wondered how it will be when they get their period and start becoming women with body and hormonal changes. It just seemed very creepy to me, nice as the fathers seemed. And maybe some kids at school would be cruel and that would be an extra burden for them to bear.
what about surrogate moms who give their child to a hetero couple ? that's separation from the birth mother too.
I'm gay and my mother was an abusive narcissist. I'd take a second dad over her in a heartbeat.
@@purplebubblegum4055 also wrong… now how about you address the issue instead of trying to avoid it.
@@darkninja1693 I'm not trying to avoid it at all if I were trying to avoid it I wouldn't here in the comment section wasting my time especially when it's none of my business
A baby already recognises the sound of its mother’s voice in the womb. Once born it will thrive best when latching onto its mother’s breast and bonding physiology and emotionally but also benefitting from its mother’s antibodies that are in her milk. Full breast feeding combined with positive physical bonding enables the baby to develop into a healthy and stable child.
Fiona, your so naive and so yesterday! Not mother but a birthing person, or Parent#2 may I remind you? Also please note that there is really no such thing as a "woman" and by extension anyone can be a woman or a man. Also, as pointed in great documentary by Matt Walsh "What is a Woman?", there is not even definition of what a woman is according to highly knowledgable and respected medical professionals! And our future elites from Harvard University also stated in their Student's body LGBTQ2SA++ pamphlet that for some people their gender identity can change on daily basis. Yes, on day-to-day bases, courtesy of Harvard.
@@samhurton9308 "anyone can be a woman or a man..." I am no biologist, I dont study Harvard, but based on my knowledge across all species, female give birth, no other gender. Thats a enough of a definition to me.
True. Babies also smell the mother before they can see.
Amen sister!!!! This video is sick and a lie!
That may be true, but biological parents who are abusive would still be worse than adopted parents who aren't abusive, gay or otherwise.
This is a great example of how to have a conversation about a challenging topic without bringing ideology into the mix. It is this type of level-headed, logical exploration that will bring us back from the current political morass.
I was a student rotating through CAMH at the time when Dr. Zucker was embroiled in controversy. It was very sad -- he was meant to give a talk to to students at the University of Toronto, and there a was a massive uproar (from a minority of loud voices) who put out a petition to get him cancelled. They accused him of all sorts of things like practicing conversion therapy (not true) and transphobia. In the end his lecture was cancelled. There is no room for diversity of thought. Dr. Zucker's goal was to give people the time to become comfortable in the bodies they were given. He was fired shortly after. This will be a stain on mental health and medicine going forward.
I like Dave Rubin and I was so surprised at my immediate negative reaction to this. What got me the most was hearing about the night nurses, the caretakers and the freezers full of breastmilk. As a mother of a toddler, the struggles of raising a baby are very fresh in my mind. I am sure many mothers are familiar with the severe sleep deprivation, troubles breastfeeding and/or pumping (and self loathing as a consequence of that), not to mention the extreme physical feat of pregnancy, birth and post-partum recovery. He is making it sound like they will be outsourcing all these hardships to a small army of women, while still feeling self-actualized and passing on their genetic material. If reproduction was a game, they are playing with cheat codes.
I think Dave and his partner are aware of their limitations and are trying to prepare for those limitations in the best way they can for their babies. I don’t believe that Dave and his partner will stay in bed sleeping while the night nurse takes care of the babies, I just think the nurse will be there to help guide them in what to do. If I had the means I would probably preplan in the same way Dave is doing. I’m a woman but am not very maternal, very organized and don’t like things out of place. My mom had to help me to traverse dealing with children, I guess much in the same way Dave’s night nurse will help him. He realizes it won’t be easy and is trying to learn.
@@iamspartacus7756 Maybe you are right. The reason it sounded like they are taking the easy way out was because he said they will use a night nurse for a few months until the baby has a better sleeping schedule, which to me implied that they don't want to deal with waking up every 2 hours.
@@krumelguineapig5353 I mean... Rich women have been doing this since the middle ages nothing new here
Brilliantly stated - if it’s a game, they are playing with cheat codes. Loved that. The fact that all of this coordination is required to do what one woman (a mother) can do, should probably demonstrate that it’s an unnatural paddle upstream. Contrived and designed to try to simulate motherhood and replace it with… this thing.
Yeah it stings. And these men just can't understand, even if they try.
This is a conversation I've been keen to hear for a while. Thanks for doing this guys
That was painful.... On one hand I admire Jordan's open, non judgemental style, but fully embracing surrogacy for rich and famous is something else.
Basically, if you have enough money, you can "create" children and redefine family to your liking, and call yourself a hero, right?
There is something deeply troubling with this type of mindset, I think.
Yup, the rich can rent poor people's bodies and it is progressive. Seems like a brutal dystopian world to me.
I agree. It seems too dark
@lwf51 I don't think it is about judging people. I think it is about wondering what the ethical pitfalls to the "right to have child" are.
There are really bad straight parents, but we are not thinking abou it that much because they naturally procreate. It's not like we can sterilize them... although, some people would argue on it.
I would say ethically, the gay parent model is different because we help gay people to have the child. There is a mercantile aspect to it. It is tricky.
Your looking too much into it...
Correct. A child needs a mother and a father, period. He's wrong on this one.
Dave seems like a nice guy and what he has sensed as missing (namely having children) is obviously true. But it seems like he's going to need all manner of scaffolding to allow this kind of parenting to be so for him and his male partner, an option not available to the vast majority of gay couples. This may be controversial to say, but when we try to mold reality to fit our will or desires, even if they seem to us noble, we find all manner of problems arise. It is a bitter pill for we modern people to swallow, especially if you have more of a liberal outlook. But in a sense highlighting this truth, helping people avoid this self-made 'chaos' has been one of the central elements to Dr. Peterson's incredible project. There is an order to things, a way towards which things tend, laws, etc. One should not try to bend the deep structure of reality to meet the reflection we wish to see in the mirror. The old religious stories tell us as much, many fairytales too. It seems there is a focus here on the self, filling the seemingly good need within one's self to be a parent. However, the stark facts of nature state he cannot be one in this way. I wonder if the hole he is describing in his life would be best filled by some other altruistic enterprise, namely committing himself to his community, helping disadvantaged young people make a go of life, etc. Diverging from a mother and a father in a deep sense could lead to untold problems down the line. Surely the last century should have taught us not to play with things, functioning institutions, ancient wisdom, we scarcely understand lest we avoid the “hell” Peterson constantly speaks of.
Great analysis. I concur
@@hybridh9702 They are just thoughtful not experts, i know thoughtfulness may seem unusual to you.
@@hybridh9702 You speak as if that's not part of internet culture. Go back to your bright lights and loud noises, child
Interesting analysis, but I think the problem here is that it assumes that the average heterosexual parents somehow always make loving, intelligent, perfectly equipped, financially stable, white picket fence families. The truth is that the majority of families need some form of "scaffolding" at one point or another. Gay parents are far less likely to be in a situation where they are unprepared to raise children. Given the structural limitations, gay parents are far more likely to be financially stable, educated, and committed to the journey required to raise kids well and prepare them for life.
Before I make a complete fool of myself, r u the same B M that I have had discussions with on 2 different videos about the situation in Ukraine and Russia? If so, this truly is a small small world!
These two people are so beautiful! There souls searching for truth is like the sun looking for something to grow!
Spread love, strength, and creativity
love and creativity would extend to the transgender community, but these two massive bigots can't even begin to conceive of that. It would get in the way of their lucrative grift.
Beautiful simile. Lovely 🌼💞🌼
These two men are important! Thank you for all you do! God bless. Agape. Open to being interviewed as a teacher who was told to not tell his students he loves them and not to use social media! We need to speak up!
As an Australian I have absolutely no idea who you are, but it appears to me that you will make a much better parent than many, many people I see in the world around me.
I love Dave. I can’t help but to be bothered that children will be without a mother.. the reason breast milk is so important is the milk is specifically made for the baby. If a mom comes in contact with a virus, the milk will make antibodies for babies within 24 hours. (I’ve also read 30 minutes). My child is breast fed, and when I work once a week, my mother in law can hardly calm my child down at the end of the day because the baby just wants to be cuddled to me and nurse. It’s a comfort thing. I know Dave and his husband will be great parents, but there’s just something about mothers.
You should be bothered. This is grotesque.
Sarah, your badly mistaken. There is no difference between Father and Mother, Man and Woman. Biology is so outdated and naive! Also going forward please use proper terminology - Parent#1 and Parent #2. Please also note that any man can be a woman and any woman can be a man. "Father" and "Mother" are deeply hurting and insulting! Well, hope you know what I mean........
@@samhurton9308 lol I can’t tell if you’re serious or not.
@@mylifemyrules8134 If you came here, listened to the conversation between JP and DR and you ended up with "grotesque" I truly think you should listen again, it’s definitely not as simple as that.
Can I ask then why your away so much from your baby when you know the critical importance of binding, being there, breastfeeding isn’t just the milk, it’s the close body connection.
40:18 "If they are [ideal] then the ideal isn't high enough, because an ideal should be something that beckons to you from the distance."
"It's not something that's right there in front of you for you to grip." -Jordan B. Peterson
I loved that!
I would disagree. An ideal is not a mountain peak to stand on, it's in the actions you perform that you become an ideal and if you're reasonable in your idolatry it should be possible to keep riding that ideal.
@@Illlium ´The ideal remains bigger than yourself. If anything, it's riding you.
@@Kraterlandschaft Depends on your relationship to the ideal. If it's externally imposed then sure.
Totally agree, I view ideals as lofty things that you aim towards. Goals are things that you can tangibly measure if you’ve met or not.
That is so stupid. One does not move the goal posts on the basis of them being increasingly difficult to achieve.
Please turn on "include automatically generated subtitles/captions". It allows for searching for quotes in the video (using the transcript and Ctrl+F) and helps many people follow along via being able to read the captions while listening. It also helps deaf people.
I second this! I use subtitles to help me read more
Interesting. I wonder if they disable it to prevent data mining of phrases which become "offensive" in the future.
As a fairly recent switched to conservative gay man, this has been the most helpfully enlightening and cementing of the thoughts and fears I’ve had about where I fit in society as a conservative gay man and the issue of ideological grooming/butchering of children.
Thank you so much Dave and Andrew… the work your both doing is paramount to saving our country and society as a whole.
Based and gay.
I listen to Rubin and Peterson regularly. Don’t agree with everything but I believe listening to Dave helps gay people give themselves an option other than this wok ideology. For this, we can be grateful.
I honestly think a child needs a mother and a father. Good conversation.
But the scientific literature says there is no difference in outcomes between same-sex and opposite sex parents. Peterson is an aging curmudgeon.
Female rolemodels definitely. Will it have adverse effects to not have a traditional mother to confide in, absolutely, but you'd be surprised by the amount of children who have a mother that you can't confide in. If you have two Parents who actually try to be there for you that is a million times better than what uncounted numbers of kids in the system and even a large number of kids in their traditional two parent home have. So sure, developmentally it's not ideal, but few things in life are, so more power to gay fathers in my book.
@@theharbingerofconflation by also this gap is often met by aunts, uncles etc hence why “it takes a village”.
What makes a mother a mother? How come a feminin man cannot assume the role of a mother?
I agree. I think a mother and father are integral to development. Having a female role model is not the same as a mother. I think it’s especially important for the same sex parent as the child. I think I would have felt a tremendous sense of loss had I not had my mom. I think I would have looked at the other little girls with their moms and have a deep longing. A better word would be life-long grief.
As a mother of three, grandmother of seven, my gut went ping when I heard Dave say that they were hiring a night nurse. Night is a sacred time when babies experience us as their ultimate solace. Our voice, arms, warmth and the proximity of our beating hearts are foundational to establishing a baby’s spiritual and relational development. Dave and Dave, your boys will want you there! XO
No, they will want their mothers.
You should be wiser than validating this mockery of God's institution.
Bingo had the same response. Nights are all about momma
@@feministdetox She is associated with the moon for a reason ;)
Major credit to two brave people for having a truly difficult conversation. I respect and admire both of you so much.
Yeah absolutely. I also love that Dave Rubin is now a multi millionaire with a multi million dollar mansion. He's so brave to talk about al this stuff although he knows it will make him a shitload of money.
@@jhwhthemerciful Hey he didn't get those millions for nothing, He had to offer up his balls, his spine and any integrity he may ever have had.
Rubin ain't all that brave...
What is brave about someone who was all the power of the current ideology behind his back? "Conservative" Rubin has a same sex marriage, which is progressive.
@@user-qd8iy6vb6l A bit misplaced to put crypto scams on a Jorden Peterson video
Two wonderful people having an honest conversation is all I ever asked for.
One of the best conversations I have ever seen in my life. Both of these humans are beautiful and extremely intelligent.
You need to be more ambitious
Wow, this is more than conversation. It's a genuine moment of profound inspiration. There is an unusual intimacy in this type of content which will be the last nail in the coffin for "legacy media".
Thank you for articulating this so beautifully. Well said.
NPC detected
Every child needs a father and a mother period! It’s the way of the universe.
Unfortunately, the left, which dominates most of the west tries to shape and mold society into their failed worldview, which will lead to a catastrophe in the foreseeable future..
Not really
If it was “the way of the universe” then why did two men come into being (Rubin and his husband) who want to have a family?
@@asystole_ I think it is more accurate to say that "it" (the generative distinction between male and female) is natural. It is in accord with nature, whereas homosexuality is contra naturam (against nature). Genocide "occurs in our universe [our world]", as does slavery, but the mere occurrence of something "in our world" doesn't make it right. Nature has within it the principle of "coming into being". Every human being who has ever lived in the long history of mankind has come into existence through the sexual friendship (or the sexual union at least) of a man and a woman. Even those conceived "in vitro" are the product of the union of male sperm and a female ovum. Harry Jaffa said it best "[m]ankind as a whole is recognized by its generations, like a river which is one and the same while the ever-renewed cycles of birth and death flow on. But the generations are constituted---and can only be constituted---by the acts of generation arising from the conjunction of male and female. The root of all human relationships, the root of all morality, is nature, which itself is grounded in the generative distinction of male and female...." Homosexuality is wrong for the same reason slavery is wrong. It is against nature. Paraphrasing Jaffa, nature and reason tell us that a man is not a dog or an ox and ought not be treated as one and with the very same reason they also tell us that a man is not a woman and that the right ordering of sexual relationships is between man and woman, not man and man, or woman and woman. If homosexuality were a moral good, there could be no objection to the world becoming entirely and exclusively homosexual. But this would entail the extinction of humankind within a generation or two. Would that be in accordance with nature? Would that be a moral good? Of course not! Someone said "nature, expelled with a pitchfork, always returns" and that is a truism you can bank on. Indeed, homosexuals (men especially) experience a level of psychic distress that is much greater than that experienced by heterosexuals. This is true regardless of how tolerant and accepting is the community in which the homosexual lives. The psychic distress I am referencing (manifesting itself as increased depression, anxiety, suicide, etc.) is intimately bound up with homosexualiy itself. It is not the result of discrimination, in other words. The disharmony in the soul, in the psyche that is the consequence of choosing, (yes choosing) a homosexual lifestyle is a consequence of choosing for oneself that which is not natural and not intended.
Yall say this until they become abusive
The West’s decimation of the sacred bond and institution of motherhood. Reducing motherhood to being an egg donor and night nurse. The cognitive dissonance of American conservatives in normalising this while at the same time arguing against gender ideology is staggering.
The video should be called: Pitfalls and Child Abuse.
In every culture on earth, including in the animal world, separating a child from its mother, from the bosom of maternal care is considered cruelty. Here we are being encouraged to think it’s normal and healthy.
Jordan, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for what you do. I’m in my late 30’s and just finding out the wife and I can’t have children. I am very much feeling the things you talk about. I don’t want to adopt and can’t find words for why. It’s been a largely soul crushing time and these sorts of talks do help, if for no other reason, to at least obtain a reference point for where I am. So thank you again.
'Cant find words for why' you know exactly why you're just too poosy to say it.
I hope you find the meaning you are looking for. My wife and I were in a similar situation, We were not having children and after a long time trying learned from a specialist it would be virtually impossible naturally. We did have the option and means to support IVF, which was our only option after our insurance refused to pay for it. Now we are looking forward to brining new life into this world soon as he is will be born soon god willing.
I encourage you and your wife never to give up. I do not know your situation or what medically would cause that diagnosis. I would though encourage you to look for the future and what you and your wife can provide for this generation and ages to come.
We have changed our mind on having children too late. Then, to my surprise, I wasn't able to conceive naturally and time was of the essence. Now I'm pregnant with an egg from an anonymous donor and my husband's semen. That was the best option to have a baby as close to us (biologically) as possible. Somehow, none of us was too enthusiastic about adoption. Wish you good luck, there are various possible ways.
Best of luck to you sir
I don't know anything about you or your wife. Even if I did then it's not for anyone other than you two to decide whether you're going to be parents anyway. If it should happen to be the case that both of you would make great parents, then doing so is still the greatest thing you can do with your life. Not just because adoption provides a home for children who need one, but because after you're done raising them, you're going to send them out into the world. A world that all the rest of us live in. Do you believe that you'll send out someone who makes the world better or worse? If the answer is better then being distracted by the idea that adoption isn't your first choice might make you hesitant until the ship has sailed, and you could miss out on the most worthwhile thing that you could've done with your life....though to be clear it's not for me to tell you how you have to handle that.
Dave, after giving birth and I was lactating, my milk would come in with just the mere thought of my baby or saying the word baby. Children need a warm, loving mom. Im not saying a man doesn't love his child, but 10 men can't replace a mother.
And to think of the baby, knowing and being close only to their mother for the entirety of their existence -- to then be taken away, never to see again the one person in the whole world this baby actually wants more than anyone else.
During a time they can not express themselves verbally and have to accept their surroundings, without any sort of independence whatsoever.
Only a society that accepts abortion can rationalise this sort of cruelty.
@@reasonablyserious Great perspective.
There are maternal men. One cannot just remain in generalizations or exception. Children need nurturing that includes touch, love, patience, safety… This can happen in gay or heterosexual relationships.
I was raised in a gay family. My father (biological) and my papa (not biological) did a beautiful job. This was way before gay marriage was even thought possible. They did an amazing job. So proud of both of them.
That's amazing. Just curious, are you straight or gay yourself?
Are you gay or did you go through gender confusion? Real question.
Are you sure about that? How can you be sure?
@@captainbeastazoid7084 I was raised by two women. One my bio mother. It was not good for me I'm the least. I struggle greatly with interpreting men very well amd they are intimidating to me. Something I work on. No, I've never in my life questioned my sexuallality. I am definitely straight.
We don't take outliers into account when trying to find out averages.
I am THRILLED to see JBP back in TOP FORM leading the way through complicated conversations. Thank you ❤️
JBP is a top critical thinker, speaker, philosopher and professional sociologist… just what we need right now.
@@bthemedia O yes, that's what we need now - Peterson not seeing any moral problem with ordering and buying wombs to carry children for a narcissistic gay couple. The new morality, the new brave world! Hurray!
One of the most fascinating conversations I've ever heard. Two incredibly articulate intelligent and interesting men having an open conversation. The world needs more of this.
Yes, it is “crazy stuff.” Alarm bells should be ringing - the fact that Rubin can’t see how this whole process is wrong is alarming.
He is not supposed to. Neither is Peterson. This whole video is wrong.
So is the only reason you think Dave will be an inadequate parent and father completely based on the gender of his partner? If this is the case, congratulations; you're woke.
Cause I guess orphans or people with step parents all lived horrible terrible lives, and should have never been brought into this world at all right? Those children should have been aborted and spared the misery.
@@mb369b8 The child will live, God willing.
I recall an email to a public service radio programme from a gay man who’d been in a stable gay relationship (before gay lib and law reform for 30 years. The presenter read it out live on-air and I’ve never forgotten it word for.
Having explained his 30 year couple relationship he concluded “… children not only need a father, they deserve one.”
Ui
The thing, many children live in broken families. Is adding gay divorced parents makimg the divorce worse?
This conversation, whilst admirable in its spirit of cooperation and mutual respect, remains rooted in the American idea of self fulfillment. As is clearly outlined here, the issues and their possible solutions are the domain of the privileged and ultra rich. I am from Zimbabwe where most people depend on subsistence farming and the traditional family to be able to survive - and how Zimbabweans survive is how most people in the world survive (no freezers full of donated breast milk). It would be great to see a conversation like the above extrapolated to include the needs of the average world citizen rather than those of the elite, albeit a well meaning elite.
It’s just unnatural and should be avoided. Simple as that.
The average citizen isn’t interesting though why would anyone want to hear about it
@@Kreations4KidsbyK What is unnatural?
Someone has been reading too much lin biao. America is about manifest destiny if we want it we manifest it. That's how we got to moon and how we will conquer mars. Beyond that Zimbabwe would never welcome white people with open arms anyways the way we are suppost to open are arms to anyone who begs.
You have a phone? You have Wi-Fi? Interesting.
As a gay man myself (one that really respects and admirers Dr. Peterson) it’s one thought that haunts me constantly to really wish children of my own someday and the dilemma of not being able to generate them naturally with my partner and, if indeed we do have children, creating a somewhat not traditional family unit.
I’m still fairly young and do not(and cannot financially) consider to form a family right now or for some years yet. Nevertheless I struggle with this constantly.
It was really helpful to see Dr. Peterson creating the space for such conversation
A child needs a mother and a father. More so than that, they deserve them both. I realise circumstances happen in life, but to intentionally change the family at its foundation is harmful and wrong, and selfish, and we all know that deep in our spirit, if we aren't too afraid to look there. Not everything we want is good for a child or right. A healthy fulfilling and nurturing life and family takes both a mom and a dad. We should do all we can to ensure that's what they get. Science playing God is not working out too well and is dangerous ground for our future.
I agree. I’m really surprised by how much they hold back with him.
Well said, Karen! Thanks for sharing this. It's one thing when, sometimes, a nuclear family can be failing their children and it's another very different thing to decide to be a false family just because we want to please ourselves with total disregard for what's best for the kids.
It seems that many so called "conservatives" have bent their knees to this gay agenda.😢
Now this is part of the GOP platform as well and it's shameful. We are failing our kids and society from both sides of the political spectrum.
We have to resist them to their face if we really want to rebuild our Christian Western Civilization. Our children have suffered enough and this just makes it worse.
@@PallyB I too have been taken aback by the complacency with this situation. It's as though conservatives are being forced to just accept this as the status quo without question. Pretty sad! 😢💔
@@teresajmarmolejos Conservatives are being forced to mind their own business for once in my life.
But isn't this the question they were both highlighting.
What then do you expect a gay man in his position to do with his life? To say no to him moving as close to the ideal as possible is also to push him towards something else. The more narcissistic Gay couple that live for themselves and spray body paint and walk around Hollywood lol
But seriously, what are they then to do?
As a straight man that was very educational, many thanks to both of you.
This conversation touches on so many sensitive and difficult issues around gay couples, gay parenting, being a child of gay parents, being a surrogate mother, egg donor, kudos for the honest and thoughtful interview. Refreshing and helpful.
What a warm, refreshing , honest and vulnerable conversation. Thank you Jordan and Thank you Dave. I myself diverge some, whilst still loving the individual, due to my Biblical exhortations.
Thank you again.
The kids will be lucky not to come out wrong from this.
@@Duster29to86 that’s very ignorant thinking especially since research and literature has shown that children raised by same sex couples seem to do a lot better but of course the same can be said with heterosexual couples it just about GOOD parenting at the end of the day
@@proudtuber2114 where's the research? Curious how many kids were in the study and what ages.
Which version of the bible?
@@Bashbekersjiw dont start with that shit be respectful nobody insulted your beliefs or opinions so fallback.
I’ve struggled with homosexuality my entire life, I’m 28. I have to admit I don’t find all of these solutions optimal.
have you considered converting to christianity?
@@white6505 as someone who disagrees with homosexuality and believes the Bible, your answer is completely unhelpful. you cannot convert and just magically be free from this burden of sin. you have to recognize it as sin first and choose to turn away from it before you make commitments.
@@white6505 ....like that's just gunna magic the gay away 🙄🙄
@@romanticmonkey ? Just that sin, or do you have to recognize all sins and turn away from them all before CONSIDERING converting to Christianity?
@@Opal5674 he is struggling. to win the struggle in one direction or the other, you need purpose, a direction as you traverse the issue. i don't know the guy, maybe in christian values he may find the solution to what is troubling him. why does that bother you so much?
We love you Dr. Peterson. You’ve saved so many lives.
Yes he has
Hello Jordan. I have never written you before, even though I feel like I know you in a way. I first discovered you when you posted your "professor against political correctness" videos, as I was interested in the strange new phenomenas I saw rising, which you have adressed over the years. For years I have followed you online, read your articles, your two 12 rules-books. I have watched you live on stage, and was praying for your health during your period of sickness. Know that you're very much loved and appreciated. I think it was also because of you that I discovered The Rubin Report, which I've also watched a lot, and I think you're doing a very good and important job as well Dave (if you'll ever read this). I have a lot of respect for the both of you. What you're addressing in this talk has interested me, and is the issue I have with respect to gay marriage (namely children). I understand there are issues involved with missing out on the different roles which the two sexes usually bring to the family. It seems you're aware of this Dave, and that you've thought it through. I respect that. However, I do wish you two would have talked more about it from the perspective of the child. What's in the best interest of the child? What about the child's rights in all of this? I understand that what I'm about to say may sound harsh for you to hear Dave, but do know that I respect you very much. That I really love your show, your courage, and I love to hear you're happy with your partner, and wish you all the best together. I would love to hear your thoughts on what I have to say, so let's get to it. Doesn't the child have a naturally given right to grow up and receive love and care from it's actual/real parents, as far as that's possible? Let me try to explain more detailed.
There is a big difference between giving children an adoptive family to remedy an unwanted situation for the child (not being able to get care from their own parents), and on constructing PLANNED fatherless or motherless children to create a family for people who because of the nature of the same-sex-union can not have children naturally themselves. This is a completely different "box" than what feelings the adults may have for the child, or what caring ability they may possess.
Coherence is important when rights are derived from biological law. Biology and genetics say something basic about where we come from, who we are, and what opportunities we have. Biology shows us connections that should be fulfilled so that a fair balance between strong and weak in nature is not disturbed. A justice that is about granting the individual what he/she is entitled to.
Children are necessarily born as a result of the union between a male and a female gamete. These will basically belong to a specific man and a specific woman, at least as long as we do not start tinkering with the genetic material. The child has - for this reason - a natural right to know its origin, its family, and receive care from its own parents - as far as this is possible. This reservation is about securing the child's rights, and applies to unforeseen cases where parents fall out or die, do not have the opportunity to provide the care which the child needs. The reservation is NOT about securing adult parental rights in situations where the child is intentionally denied one or both biological parents.
The purpose of biological parenting thus primarily has the best interests of the child in mind: It must provide for the weakest need of care, to provide for the safest possible upbringing. Thereafter the biological parenting is about the parents' happiness, but this is achieved through responsible exercise and management of one's own biological preconditions, and by setting aside selfish inclinations to meet the child's need for closeness, belonging, unconditional love, security.
It is a short-circuit to believe that the reverse is the case - that children's purpose is to fulfill and secure adults "needs" to become parents, and thus be at the mercy of adults that require the child's natural rights to be overridden. Children are a gift to parents. Children can not, and should not, be objects we can claim, buy, or construct across all biological laws. I don't think women's and children's bodies should be considered as merchandise. And what about the bond that the surrogate mother and the infant have created after nine months? Isn't it traumatic for the infant to break this?
Great points WorkInProgress! Adult's own selfish desires, no matter how creative they are in "morally" justifying them, can not deny a child the most basic and very fundamental right - to have own Real Mother. Horrible Child Abuse and violation of the most fundamental human right at least to have a Mother anyone???
Well said. As a matter of fact, Dave said "his mother" would spend some time doing the motherly act of feeding and assisting in caring for the newborn. On another note, I know a woman who chose her career over marriage . She practiced law and as her biological clock ticked on,decided she wanted a child.she contacted a sperm bank and gave birth to a daughter that by contract, will not know her biological father. She grew up with my daughters and my son as classmates and would always cling to me and the other fathers in our social circle. Although her grandfather and uncle were very active in her life,it was apparent that they were not the perfect substitute. These particular scenarios are played out among the well to do who in their own selfishness, act against nature to accomplish their selfish desire. As much as I enjoyed the discussion ,I think that Jordan Petersen knows the truth....having a wife ,and taising his own children,but somehow sought to give solice to what I believe he knows is not ,and cannot yield the fruit that his union bore in his marriage and the union of parenting his children.
While I can understand the message was in fact intended for JP and DR I just wanted to salute you in your additions to an already great conversation, raising very interesting points of analysis.
Very well written. It will be an immutable truth for both of Dave's Children that they will indeed both have mothers of whom they will (Likely) never meet or have by virtue of process were divorced from the children's lives. A deep portion of this question is brought up in your comment, there is a major difference between a born child who is lacking the ideal heterosexual parentage and a child being purposefully denied a heterosexual parentage (mom & dad).
One day a computer algorithm will decide what family, which will be more like a small pod-tribe is best suited to live in to bring out it’s full potential. We will be resorted by the age of 4. Then kids won’t be killing themselves when they can’t live up to what their parents decided for them to be and live as a life. At least it’d make a good psychological thriller. “The computer algorithm and the social credit system and systems measuring every gesture decided it’s time for your to move little Johhny.”
Thank you for the Truth in concerns regarding your journey in parenting, Ruben. 🙏🏽
Confrontation of Fears in Truth is the only way to be a healthy contributing member of society.
As a mother, Dave just unknowingly elaborated how essential I am. Thank you. He and his spouse have to collage different individuals to do what I do naturally. Motherhood cannot artificially be simulated... not matter how much you try. I wish you Dave the best of luck on your journey... I hope to hear from your kids in future to get their take from this experience. Much love and blessings 🙌🙏❤️
You sound like a narcissist.
Very insightful
@DEZZNUTZ 1001 True, although plenty of heterosexual couples are 'hamstringjng' their children by bringing them into the world without being equipped to parent them.
The fact is that plenty of people, if not most people, don't get the idyllic upbringing that a GOOD mother and a GOOD father can give them. And one parent being good at the job can't compensate for the other one being bad at it.
If two parents of any gender are good at the job, they're of far more benefit to the child than a bad parent.
Luck? This dude need some prayers.
@DEZZNUTZ 1001 A ruse? Those pesky gays tricked you? What are you, drunk?
What a great conversation! Personally, I was quite reluctant to listen to this episode due to the nature of the topic. This episode really shows the significance of how important it is to have conversations. Thank you Dr. Peterson.
Dr peterson? lol this is lex and douglas
Congratulations to your multi year contact with Daily Wire Dr Peterson. Congratulations to you and Dave
and all best wishes to your new soon to be family, how exciting.
@@jackoates6418 It’s actually called adopting.
@@jackoates6418 You are correct, I spoke to soon to realize they were talking about surrogacy and not adoption. My bad
What an honest insightful conversations. Dave, I admire your courage to discuss this and have this discussion with Jordan Peterson. It was so intense and relevant, truly enlightening and worth the time, heterosexual or gay.
Such a deep conversation. One thing that can’t be replicated are the chemical reactions and bio information passing between mother and child. For example, my lactation nurse told me that while breastfeeding, the child’s saliva enters the breast and informs the mother’s body of the nutritional needs of baby and other information is shared from baby to mother that way.
Whether true or not, there are certainly biological systems at work between mother and child that cannot be replicated.
I didn't know that
@@pennyyeomans4115 that’s unfortunate for me as I put a lot of trust in my lactation nurse. The point remains that chemical reactions and biological changes occur during bonding that can’t be replicated
@@pennyyeomans4115 maybe you’re right maybe not. I don’t Find it outside of the realm of possibilities. Just think of the information exchange and chemical reaction between two humans when they kiss and exchange saliva
@@pennyyeomans4115 not nonsense, research it. It’s a well-documented scientific fact!
@@pennyyeomans4115 No, it's true. I'm in school for RN and It's currently stated in my Anatomy and Physiology book.
What a great discussion. I loved the part talking about ideals and why they are important, even though they can feel threatening because they cause comparison and push us to strive to be something more than we are now. It seems like there is a tension between accepting ourselves as who we are now, while also still knowing there is more that we could become. It's easy to interpret that as meaning we are not good enough and that is the idea people are pushing against. It threatens our current identity and makes us have to question ourselves. Thank you both for sharing this important dialog.
I'm so proud of mah boy! Jordan keeps growing and you have my support! hugs
Surrogacy seems very dystopian to me. And it’s just the fact that you know it’s not coming from your partner, even if my prospective wife was unable to have children I still wouldn’t relegate that task for another woman to fulfill, it just feels immensely wrong, unethical, and emasculating even.
Those women sign up for it and are compensated. How is it unethical…
@@kkgarcia1153 just because someone consents to it doesn't make it ethical.
@@kkgarcia1153It's unethical for the child to be ripped from their mother at birth in exchange for a paycheck. Selfish beyond belief.
In my opinion, there can be no substitute for a 'female' maternal role. Gay couples can justify their ability to play that role in the absence of a female (or a male in lesbian relationships), but the fact remains it's all fiction. I don't see this as beneficial for any child. I think a child brought up in a gay household will be greatly disadvantaged in later life, no matter how much love they are given by their two fathers or two mothers. I'm sure that as the products of such marriages grow into adulthood, we will start seeing serious repercussions. Right now, people are experimenting. We don't yet know how detrimental these experiments will turn out to be.
Nicely said - it’s literally an experiment
Not as bad as single mothers tho.
@@vincentgiasullo Single mothers often don't choose to be single, gay couples do decide to be together and adopt
@@karakraal4551 and what's difference does it make ?
Why ?
We are traveling in uncharted territory - at least from the "scientific" perspective. I was raised in the 50~60s by a divorced mother also with a father who rejected me to the day he died. Despite a relatively "successful" career, emotionally, my life has been a pursuit of a family I never had. The lack of a father and worse, the rejection of a father created a "hole" in my personality that I was never able to fulfill - it caused damage that brought me to the brink of suicide (including gesture) on three occasions - only "miracles" saved me. My experience (and I am a MD-level therapist) convinced me that at one point in a boy's life, he needs some "male" role model and acceptance. My grand-mother provided me with the mothering I needed but looking back at my life, I went through hell. This interview brings up great issues - I admire the research and care that Dave and his partner put into their family, they are also fortunate to have the resources to "do the right thing", may God bless them. Ciao, L (survivor, Veteran)
Ciao thanks for sharing -- God bless you and thank you for your service!
@@americathebeautiful9613 Hi "America the Beautiful", thank you for your kind words. We need more people like you to save this country of ours - I wish you happiness and success building your little family nest. May Peace be with you, Ciao, L
Thank you for your service to this country, and the raw honesty about your life. ❤️
When my depression was at its lowest of lows I remember thinking how I didn't want to be a slave to anyone, how I'm only here to fulfill other people's problems. Responsibility isn't only doing things for others. You could be responsible for a wonderful garden you created. You could be responsible for family that brings you joy. You could be responsible for a pet that loves you and brings you happiness. When everything else is gone, responsibility is all we have left. Even if you don't feel that great, you can take solace in taking some burdens from others knowing that you are keeping the peace as well as relieving them of pressure because you know they would do the same even if they don't view it the same. When everyone else its arguing and bickering over who's doing what, you become the glue that hold everything together. If not for you, all hell would break loose and you become the most important element. I believe it was Jordan who said something along the lines of, if you can't fix the problem, at least don't make it worse.
I also experienced something like this were, at the darkest moments of depression, I surrounded myself with the biggest, most existential questions. And this sense of responsibility, this sense of "I have something to do here" and I should really get a grip on it was felt very vividly. Other words that I discovered a more true sense of which helped me greatly (and are connected to responsibility in my opinion) include "dedication", "focus", and "fun".
As a newly conservative gay man, I really appreciate this kind of exploration of responsibility and meaning that can be applied to my life. I'm grateful that i can confirm that becoming a parent was the most meaningful thing I could have done with my life, and have done so by adopting my nephew who was in need of that. THANK YOU JORDAN PETERSON! You've helped me more than I can say.
Hang in there Dr. JP, those few of us left who celebrate the ability to exercise common sense; we support you, we love you, and we hope you keep fighting for logic! ♥️
NPC
"You are not mature until someone else is more important than you." Perfectly stated, this is what I keep saying, that my mental health got so much better since I had my child, because life was not about me anymore. What I still dont understand clearly is why my quite severe anxiety seemed to have tamed since then as well, I would have expected it to grow...
So true
Well, lucky you! That certainly doesn't happen to all people. Having a kid is a huge change, a stress and not everyone's mental health gets better.
That someone doesn't have to be a child btw
I man with a why can bear any how. I would guess that the stress that leads to anxiety probably increased as you expected, but the unexpected part was likely a massive increase in the ability to endure that stress.
@@reasonablyserious women tend to love children a bit more than men (their partner). Its possible she just means she was still selfish minded in her relationship and fun focused, til her child came along and she realized life is more than just yourself. I know too many unhappy adults who never reached that stage, very sad.
Kids need a mother and a father. Its like yin and yang (not to sound cliche). The two forces between the two constantly push against each other and create the perfect place for a growing baby. You NEED that balanced energy.
Most of the issues in our society stem from an imbalance of this family energy that the child didnt receive and is struggling to take control over through force, manipulation and other things.
Life doesnt have to be perfect. But we do need to be aware of what perfect would look like, and I think the conversation is slowly moving away from reality toward some sort of "accept every weakness as the new normal" but we just cant do that, respectfully.
Love you Dave. Glad to see Dr. Peterson on DW. Thanks for the tough but thoughtful discussion.
True, a good mother and father is the ideal, but two good mothers or fathers is better than a good mother and a bad father, or a bad mother and a good father.
I really don't think a child will benefit from having parents of both genders if at least one of them is bad at the job.
I agree
I just started watching the video so I don't know if this comes up later lol. But from reading some of the comments, all I can think about is straight couples who have children but then divorce or seperate, or if you grow up in an environment where your parents aren't present. This can happen regardless of sexual orientation where the mother abandons the child or the father abandons the child, and if you have an uncle or an aunt or another family member to help out that's better than nothing. It also makes me think about the whole concept of adoption and the fact that adopted children often never get to be with their actual mothers and fathers. But there are so many family dynamics involved for me to really say one way is better than the other, because a gay couple who loves their child and is there for them throughout their lives is much healthier than a straight couple who abandons them.
Respectfully, this entire convo made me cringe. Starting with Dave talking about his primary motivation for being a parent coming out of a deep desire to "self-realize" more fully (an oddly circular narcissistic motivation to defeat narcissism), and then talking about about the surrogacy process without addressing the ethics of it. Ultimately, though, Jordan is right that we don't know enough to successfully predict outcomes for motherless children, so it may well be that kids are better off with both mother/ father and anything deviating from this norm creates unanticipated risk. A question for Dave would be: is it worth it to bring a child into the world and expose them to that risk because one has such a deep desire to self-realize?
Now, everyone has the right to make a morally compromised choice, but let's be honest if/when discussing it and not sugarcoat the issues. And this is, in fact, what bothered me the most: there is an awful lot of sugarcoating here. Jordan was extremely gentle and handled the discussion with kid gloves, obviously because this is personal to his friend and touches on decisions/commitments that have already been made. It really makes you wonder though why neither Jordan nor Dave usually show the same generosity, the same level of care, respect, and benefit of the doubt when addressing other people dealing with similarly complex, morally touchy issues. Tough love for everyone, but kid gloves for Dave Rubin and his choices.
isn’t “self realize” the best thing for him or men though? How many young men have been confronted with the fatherhood bridge and been afraid to move to the next level? I don’t think it’s narcissistic, it’s admirable. A man realizing it’s time to grow up and quit pretending he’s a mature adult and finally become a father. but that’s just my 2 cents
@@Wambamdoozle I opened the replies to check before I commented and yep- you already wrote my response for me.
@BVale I agree with you, but Dave didn't quite use your words. And also, if the goal is really to become the best person one can be, wouldn't adopting a child in need, and gifting them a stable and happy life, be a better way to accomplish it? How is foregoing adoption, and choosing instead the more expensive and high-tech route of surrogacy, not inherently selfish or narcissistic? Again, he has the right to make that choice, but we shouldn't be manipulated into thinking it's a noble one.
@BVale I wasn't making a statement about same-sex couples -- simply pointing out that choosing to become a parent for the reasons stated in the video, and then going about it in the way described in the video, didn't seem particularly noble or altruistic or admirable considering alternatives. And I was pointing out there was no discussion in the video about the ethical dimension of these choices, which struck me as unusual at least for JP, who is always willing to risk offending others presumably for the sake of speaking truth.
@BVale I think adoption by same-sex couples might be more common than you think. I have three gay friends who have each adopted a child - and I can tell you those kids are very lucky to have ended up with such smart, capable and loving parents.
I grew up in rural ohio. No gay anything acceptable. Had a child with a woman at 19. Everyone knew I was gay growing up but I suppressed it. Ran away from the child and mother , transitioned into a “trans female” and lived as that person for 10 years away from everything I’d known before. I studied spirituality and found acceptance and love for my soul through meditation. I moved home. Faced all the things I’d been running from and detransitioned. Now I live my life as a gay man. In my home town. I vote red mostly. Love this country and am blessed that the man who married my child’s mother came into the picture and took him in as his own before he knew any different. We are all in good terms. Life is all about navigating while finding understanding that we all have different trauma as children that lead us to hopefully finding ways to heal. Study consciousness, the spirit and the brain heart connection.
Whoever reads this . I pray you find your way.
I believe in you!
Geno
Beautiful post. Thanks for sharing
This moved me Geno, thank you for sharing, and good on you for coming back and facing your decisions.
Thanks geno
@Greg W thank you 🙏
@@ErayIsBae thank you
The difference between adoption and IVF is that adoption exists to find the best parents for a child in need,
IVF exists to fulfill a desire of adults to have children, who always miss one of their biological parents. They are made that way intentionally.
Not always. There are straight couples who use their own eggs and sperm for IVF and then the fertilized embryo is implanted into the same woman's uterus. But even in this case ethics and most certainly health risks are up for debate.
IVF is a great evil.
Jordan is an amazing person. It’s so I intriguing to listen him. I feel so sad when he cries. I wish he could be my therapist.
Empirical evidence must give way to theory. I have reared four children and no matter how much time, nurturing, bottle feeding, comforting, skin contact. You name it every feminine trait I could perform they still gravitated towards my wife for certain comforts because that was their preferred choice when given the choice. It appeared to be instinctive programming. It's as simple as that. A man makes a poor mother and a woman makes a poor father. Dave can have 20 fridges of breast milk but it's not just the milk babies want its the breast. I just didn't have a tittie and that's the difference. Do they want what's best for a child or what's best for Dave and Dave? What would a child prefer?
You're a very intelligent man sir ☺️
(Also it's the same sadly for single Mothers.....when they try to raise sons without Father's it goes horribly wrong 😥...(maybe the odd few exceptions I know) but sons especially need that masculine energy guidance. Both Mother's & Father's equally bring many important aspects into a child's upbringing..... It can go sadly so horribly wrong with single parents 😔 statistics are everywhere...plus well, just look around 😔
Rubin happily advertising genetic engineering to accommodate aesthetic preferences.
Truly the mark of a great parent.
Right on.
Eugenics, right?
I’ve been an out gay man for over 20 years and this the first time I’ve heard a realistic and ration conversation about gay couples and family. Thank you 🙏🏼
I really like Rubin, but, for the first time, I was put off by the fact that he is only able to create the “perfect family,” because he is wealthy. Something feels very unnatural and off, to me. Maybe, if two people can’t naturally pro-create, they should adopt???? Just wondering out loud, here. 🤷🏻♀️
@@betholabecker3219 I am actually not a huge fan of Dave Rubin… and the designer baby thing is a bit off putting.
But I appreciate that they’re really digging into the complexities and realities of gay parenting. They acknowledge some natural truths about the importance of mothers and strong female role models. The nuance is appreciated
@@SeffiesTurn
Well, I’m not one to throw the baby out with the bath water....I definitely appreciate Rubin quite a bit. Also kind of wondering if Pederson was not affirming via the back door???? Like I said earlier, I’m wondering this out loud.....and yes, I think this is a great conversation, with many facets to consider. I just can’t shake the uncomfortable feeling, that, if you’re a gay couple, you can only become a parent, if you’re rich.....😬
This conversation was anything but realistic or rational.
@@glaucon7337 Why is that?
I love that after a couple years I just now finding out Dave is gay. That’s how it should be. He doesn’t make it about him or his sexuality it’s about being a good person. Love it. Go Dave
Yes, I support gay people but I hate the LGBT organisation. Being gay is fine but I don't want people to be gay in front of my face, the same goes for straight people.
Or just let ppl express themselves? Dafuq💀 besides straight ppl "make it abt themselves" all the time have you seen the clothes they put their babies in "lock up your daughters" or "ladies man" I'd argue that's way scarier than any gay person. Besides the amount of straight men scared of anything remotely feminine says a whole lot more abt straight ppl than it does abt gay ppl "making it abt themselves". Also sexuality doesn't have a "look" to it so u not knowing he was gay was probably because u catagorize gay ppl (and probably ppl in general) based of off stereotypes.......do better
The critical component of child-rearing is the emotional health of the parent, whether they are married, single, gay, straight, or what have you. So many of us who grew up with $hit parents would gladly trade them in, had we to do it over again, for any emotionally healthy parent(s) who possessed the ability and desire to emotionally support us throughout our formative years.
Very naïve model of the situation. Its clear you don't understand what its like to be raised as an adoptee, or to suffer a primal wound from infant separation from your mother.
@@Col-T-Invest Woosh!
@@Col-T-Invest no he’s not wrong as someone who had many foster brothers the most important thing for them is to be in a loving home that’s rule #1, these are kids who just want to be loved every brother that I’ve had from the foster care they were always very hyper and just wanted attention 24/7 it seemed like lol but that’s because they need affirmation from time to time that they are still in a loving family
Question is how many people who are homosexual or especially trans are emotionally, mentally healthy?
@@jennifervert2601 It's a hard thing to measure. But that wasn't really the point of my post. Given the choice between an emotionally healthy gay couple - two men or two women - vs two jacked in the head heterosexuals, one would be a fool not to choose an emotionally healthy environment over a toxic environment to be raised in. If you actually had a choice, that is. It's more like the luck of the draw. You get what you get.
I have a question. The 5 IQ point for breastfed kids... is this related to spicifically being fed breast milk or is this intelligence increase related to the child creating a bond with the mother during breast feeding?
Breast feeding due to the omega-3 sustenance provided by the breast milk. Additionally, prenatal omega-3 absorption also helps. And it's important to note that it's perfectly fine to breastfeed up until 4.
It's because more intelligent mothers care enough to breast feed.
*specifically
They don’t know. At least one study has come out showing that children of women who INTENDED to breastfeed (but for some reason or other could not) have similar outcomes to children who were actually breastfed, and this suggests that it’s not necessarily the milk or breastfeeding itself, but it may be correlated to some other quality of the mother-perhaps the willingness to make the physical sacrifice and time commitment of breastfeeding correlates with more committed and attentive mothers. It’s unclear.
Both...
Can you drive a car at 70mph without wheels?
Kind of amazing how similar my life experiences have been compared to Dave’s. I’m virtually 100% straight acting… never fit in among the “gay” crowd… _definitely_ always been attracted to men… and took me a while to come to terms with it… grappling with the conflict between my traditionalist/conservative nature and my sharply non-traditionalist orientation… willing and eager to discuss the uncomfortable questions/objections without getting defensive or offended (very often agreeing with critics)… hopeful for a future with a less distinctive _LGBTQ+_ _community™,_ as opposed to one which largely blends in naturally…
The big differences are that I’m 20 years younger (27 vs 46), and I’m pretty staunchly opposed to gay parenting (though perhaps age difference plays a role in that). I just believe it’s deeply wrong to bring a child into life while knowingly depriving them of a mother… I mean, mothers are almost literally EVERYTHING to a child. Even to adults… what could bring more _sorrow_ to one’s life but losing their mother? Even in old age…? (Losing a child brings anguish, not sorrow).
Anyway, I just can’t shake the belief that gay parenting is at some level selfish, though I can see why others would disagree.
So then youre also as staunchly opposed to kids growing up with their father if the mother is not in the picture anymore?
Thanks for being that way. I sometimes think to myself that real self-acceptance ("pride") of a gay person is not wearing a costume and shouting SJW-ish codes but casually telling a colleague "So I was with my boyfriend at this restaurant yesterday..." . Like it's normal. By acting like it is normal, without asking for anyone's permission, you make it more normal.
By acting like it's a "we" vs "them", like you came from another planet, and by making yourself unrelatable on purpose just to feel more loved by your own group - you distance yourself and make the societal split wider on both sides.
I totally agree. Are you also opposed to becoming a surrogate parent or to adopt? There are plenty of unwanted kids that could benefit from loving parents, gay or not.
Just curious on your opinion of 2 women having a kid together? I get everyone is emphasizing the importance of not having a biological mother due to the bonding that occurs during pregnancy but in lesbian couples you do have that component. So is 2 men a slightly worse option than 2 women?
I agree the ideal is a mother/father.
After that parents with a balance of a masculine/feminine presence.
After that 2 parents, same sex or otherwise.
Single parenting with a good support system
Then single with no support system falls last for me.
Throwing another thing out there… many surrogacy, sperm, and egg donation situations have some type of open agreement where the child can choose to meet the bio donor either before or after 18.
For me, this gets close to the whole “missing the ideal” scenario.
The idea that it is selfish to have children isn’t something I generally subscribe to because there’s always a more needy child out there, like those in foster care.
Personally I’m more opposed to people that have no prior parenting experience adopting a kid with advanced trauma as many have in the foster care system rather than having an infant first and working through that trauma from the time they’re born. In the latter situation, you have time to grow and learn with the kid. In the former, you have to hit the ground running with an 8+ year old.
I'm a Jesus lover and He is all about love. I definitely believe in the nuclear family. However, big respect to Dave Rubin and his husband! You respect the nuclear family and want what's best for your children. You both are doing what you can to provide as much of a well balanced life of love, health and happiness. I respect the commitment and love for kids ❤️
Blessings to you both and your new family!
Jesus was not all about Love. Jesus was about denying yourself, picking up your cross and following him. They need to deny their disordered desires and stay celibate.
@JenniferMiller-sx1xn And what makes you so confident about the "disordered" nature of their desires? A book written by prehistoric goat herders who had slavery, stone beating and even human sacrifice? That's your "unbiased" source of moral judgement, I suppose.