Yeah basically injured all of his second year but still dropped 63 on a star stacked Celtic team that only lost 1 home game that year and Jordan put 63 on them on their home court and of course still lost. 63 is still the playoff high. Jordan’s other 1/4 of a season was his comeback year in which I think he played 25 or less games. I don’t even like to talk about the wizards in which jordan took 3 years off and used the season to get in shape and was still an all star. I think lebron doesn’t get enough respect but jordan is absolutely a better player but argument I think is more reasonable is that jordan and lebron at best are equal. Lebron just can’t do anything to pass him especially winning titles. I don’t like simply calling jordan the goat off of 6 for 6 in the finals. It was different eras and circumstances that they faced and is basically comparing apples to oranges. In all I can’t ignore what lebron has done and it’s damn close to jordan. Lebron can debate him having the best resume but I’m taking jordan over lebron as a player.
@@joejett5084 he played 18 games in 85 and 17 games in comeback in 95 i think from my head.Jordan is better player for me.I watched Jordan since 89 and LeBron since day one and for me Jordan is solid number 1.I respect your take and cant argue with that.
@@joejett5084thats real, I respect that. Personally I got Bron as #1, but both are great and top 2 all time. This debate is honestly subjective though, the fact that people try to put down the other is crazy. At the end of the day, they all better then we'll ever be 😂💯
before coming to the bulls, Phil Jackson was coaching a Puerto Rican basketball team. The triangle was a brainchild of Tex Winters (asst coach). Yes, Michael benefitted having Phil as the coach, but that goes both ways. The triangle offense will only work if you have an apex scorer in your team. That's why it worked with the bulls and the shaq/kobi lakers. Go asked Phil why it didn't work in NY. Another thing, Jordan is coachable. He listens and respects his coaches and he's not afraid to buy into a system if it will help him win. Can you say the same about lebron?
I actually think the exact opposite about jordan and don't think you can actually reason what you do here. A lot of Jordan success came from Jackson. The rebuild after Jordan's dad's death showed that. In addition, Jordan played less team ball, didn't buy into the coach' Jackson's plays often not passing until he got kerr, played as a scorer and weak side defender to help. Lebron played as a main defender to shut down some teams, as well as weak side defender. Lebron played forward and guard, played with the ball and off the ball. Lebron specifically worked well with Spoestra. The spurs and the Mavericks would handled the game differently against the bulls. The bulls didn't have to play against large outside defenders that could shoot like robert horry, ben wallace, tyson chandler, or KG. Also, The triangle was innovative because it broke the very common zone defense. Phil Jackson didn't just learn the triangle and didn't mainly use it in LA (look at how other teams tried the triangle and it lost to robert horry over and over because of how phil adjusted his defense against it)Lebron is definitely more about the team and tends to run plays. Lebron played in 3 different defensive schemes and on technical merit and pure skill is better. Jordan use to just kind of sit with his hands down until he had the ball, rarely set screens and took worse shots against worse defenders. Jordan basically just barked at people if they played bad. Lebron explains exactly what went wrong and what exaclty teammates could learn. That was the challenge of the dream team was to try and get Jordan to play with chuck. After jordan left phil Jackson he had tons of problems with players and coaches. Lebron is the GOAT, a complete player, and Jordan is the best ball handler and scorer ever. I don't even think you can truly even say Jordan was better than Kobe as Kobe played screen, pick and rolls, made plays without the ball and had a better defensive rating. My top 5 all time is 1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4. Jordan 5. Magic ... Even players today like steph just can't do as much as the big guards like tmac, kobe, jordan. A lot of disagreement to your comment.
@@tokdo4960 "Jordan like to sit and just wait for the ball". You wrote a lot of nonsense but that simple statement is all i need to know that you have never seen a single full basketball game of Jordan. There's plenty you can find in youtube. don't just watch the highlights.
@@tonyt888 You haven't watched enough jordon. Bird killed him over and over because of this. Jordan never beat bird, if he didn't have the ball, he was mostly just chilling. Once he had the ball most of the time it was just get out of the way. Lebron is much more active and less predictable.
@@tokdo4960 you are correct about Jordan losing against the Bird led Celtics that happened to be one of the all time great teams. At least Jordan didn't choke against the 2011 Mavericks being outplayed by a bench player Jason Terry. Jordan never lost in the finals while Lebron got swept 2x in the finals. Lebron got too many failures to be considered a GOAT. Yes he lost in the 80's but that' was part of his story. Physically he played the best ball in those years and it was a beauty to watch. oh btw, you must be on crack if you think Lebron is a much more active and less predictable player than Jordan. In the history of the league, there were only 4 times a player was able to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks. hint. out of the 4, Jordan did it twice. So that means If Jordan was scoring 30+ a night and having 200+ steals and a 100+ blocks in a season, who do you think is more active. next time come back with facts instead of saying generalized things like all jordan did was wait for the ball. end
This new argument that Jordan owes all his success to his coach is baffling and I have never heard that used in any other discussions of greatest individual athletes ever. The desperation is pathetic.
You got to be kidding me. You could say the same thing for Lebron. His eye test is absolutely incredible and exceeds Jordan. People couldn't believe how a 6'9 250 lb man flops all the time.
Nice video but one thing you should keep in mind is that Phil Jackson was not as accomplished before he took over as the Bulls head coach in the 1990 offseason.
@@Ghost-rb6cw The Triangle offense which Phil implemented doesn't work with anyone. You NEED players like Jordan or Kobe to make it work. There is a reason it didn't work in NY. They complimented each other. Jordan was avg more before phil came in. Phil needed exactly what Jordan had. He was coaching a small team in Puerto Rico before joining Bulls
At 16:00 he makes probably the most interesting point. MJ had tougher conference competition and less finals competition, which lead to less trips to the finals but always winning when he's there. While LBJ had less conference competition and tougher finals competition, which lead to him having more finals appearances but less wins when he is there.
That’s also BS because LeBron had less strong opposition to reach the finals! Making again a case for MJ. The Bulls didn’t have to beat just one strong team to win…. And i‘ve seen all finals and I can tell you that the sonics, and the Jazz were very good teams with HOF players. So in the end, MJ was dominant against stronger teams in a much harder league than LeBron. His 10 years of peak are unreachable and that is why nobody could beat the Bulls. Pippen of course was a big part of it, the rest were role players.
@@fan2hd277oh please lebron has played 29 hall of famers in his playoff career while jordan has played 9. Jerry Krause and Phil Jackson made jordan into a winner he would have never won anything. He is 1-9 without pippen his finals comp was weak I could just tell you didnt watch the horrible cavs front office that LeBron had for most of his career he would have won nothing in cleveland. Put bron is MJ position hes winning 10 rings and hes not quitting.
@@rossejera1661it definitely wasn’t the leastern conference. You lebron haters only called it that. I have never heard anyone out side of Jordan lovers call it that. The raptors had the best record for a few years and LeBron swept them multiple times. Title favorites mind you. No one in the East he faced was an easy team. The Spurs, the Celtics, the pistons, the bulls. So on and so on bruh 😂😂😂 nice try buddy
If Lebron has been playing 20+ years and Jordan is still clearly the better player I don't get why some people say Lebron can still do something in the near future that will get him past Jordan 😂 the debate is over and it should've never been a debate in the first place. Kobe was the closest we ever got to Jordan
LeBron is hoping that he luck up on a couple more championships and he knows his longevity is really all he has at this point so he’s going to continue to play since everyone seems to be so amazed by what he’s doing but no one wants to factor in the technology medicine and training of today is much better than what it was when Jordan last played
Bron is better than Kobe, let the man rest in peace bro. Also if Bron won 2 more rings and fmvps he would be better than Jordan right, bc he already has the stats. You can't have the debate until he hangs it up, bc were comparing legacy, and Bron still playing. Although this debate is pointless bc its all subjective and opinion based, but just bc its opinion based doesn't mean there isn't one.
@@abnerallen2334 so because Kobe passed away I'm supposed to just forget he was better than Lebron? You sound stupid. You mean the stats that took him 20+ years to accumulate? Jordan did more in less time and still sits on top of the advanced stats 😂
Lebron can average a triple double for 10 more years and still won’t ever top prime MJ. No one has yet to be able to do so… MJ dominated on BOTH ends of the floor, more so in the playoffs and specially in the finals. No one can say that but MJ
MJ was playing both ends BEFORE Pip and Grant arrived, and certainly before Rodman. FACTS, NOT FANDOM! Pip became a defensive whiz by playing against MJ. Facts.
Yeah word, LeBron fans always ignore that aspect of it. They just throw the 0.8% FG difference and make it the end all be all when in reality you examine his shooting outside the layup/dunk range (0-3 ft), his percentage is pretty poor but LeBron with his body frame and strength was able to generate lots of layups/dunks which accounts for such a large % of his stats thus 50.5%. MJs by distance stats dont exist until late 90s and Wizard years cuz the stat wasn't measured until 1997 but even a near 40 year old Wizard MJ who was just a shell of himself had better shooting numbers outside 0-3 feet compared to prime LeBron
You forgot to mention how misleading Lebron's fg% is when THE VAST MAJORITY of his shots are within 0-5 ft. from the basket, dunks and layups, any further than that and his fg % drops off a cliff.
@@Nightflcn4it’s important context to include in the conversation. Imagine it was the other way, would you accept someone supporting Jordan leaving that out? No
@@jaredslabaugh3181 stop playin stoopid, those are more efficient because they are EASIER to make, they are CLOSER to the hoop, when Lebron expands his range to make HARDER shots from further away his fg % falls off a cliff. F Lebron
“If you multiply your shoe size by your hat size, you will get the distance, in centimeters, that you can kick your hat.” -George Carlin All the number crunching is amusing, and it helps to fuel more debate among those who want to have it, but for most people it just comes down to who you’d rather have if you want to win. I’ve been able to witness the entire careers of both while also being a Lakers fan for 40+ years. Magic and Kobe are my favorite players, but MJ is by far the best I ever saw.
thats the problem, everyone's opinion is different. thats the point of numbers. they are facts that u can analyze universally and interpret. numbers dont lie. numbers arent biased. obviously it gets boring. for me mj also the goat, but there is a reason why its a debate
Sorry, LBJ didn't HAVE to leave. He chose to. He could have waited a little longer. But one of the biggest scars on LBJs legacy, was losing to the Mavs in 2011 with his new stacked team.
2011 stacked team?? Dallas, yes. Miami was literally 3 guys. Anyone who says the Heat had the better team is just some dumbass kid that thinks this shit is 2k.
Anyway how is it so bad to lose against a near 60 win wrst team that destroyed EVERYBODY, including all the others that had an actual team instead of 3 guys...........
@@chrisgoat6435 Oh it's bad. Give MJ same Heat team against that Dallas team, NO WAY they losing. You barking up the wrong tree here bro. Everybody and they mama agrees that Heat shouldn't have lost that year with what they had. And it ain't just about the fact they lost, it's Lebrons performance. HE was supposed to make the different. If you don't know, go look at his stats in that Finals, then talk to me. ✌🏿
Forgot free throws percentage, Turnovers, then you forgot game score, then you forgot wins for competition, rules changes as well. Doug Collins, Kevin Loughery, Phil wasn't a great coach until he had MJ.
LeBron didn't change teams and make them a championship favorite. He joined a finals mvp, Wade in Miami and got an all star in Bosh to join them. It wasn't just LeBron showing up that did that. Same in Cleveland where they brought in Kyrie and Love.
0 playoff appearances but they were still all star talent. DWADE losing in the first round the year b4 does not change the fact that he was a superstar and established champion when lebron joined him. Try again.@@sportstalkonly1442
@@IamveryverylostLeBron played with: Brandon Ingram Lonzo Ball Kyle Kuzma Rajan Rondo Dwyane Wade Zydrunas Ilgauskas Carlos Boozer Ben Wallace Kevin Love Larry Hughes Mo Williams Andre Drummond Dwight Howard Kyrie Irving Anthony Davis Chris Bosh Kevin Love Isaiah Thomas Derrick Rose Russ Westbrook Carmelo Anthony Ray Allen Jordan Clarkson Kyle Korver Shaq Antawn Jamison Dennis Schröder Rashard Lewis
I never saw anyone play like MJ in my years of watching the NBA. Kobe came close but MJ played really, really, really different. He was something. There are going to be highlight moves every game. Moves that you've never seen before or even after. Moves that you can't forget. Moves that are for the ages. MJ SIMPLY THE GOAT!
Kone was a inefficient ballhog..only his moves/handles were similar smooth/beautiful...you know efficiency wins you basketball games that what jordan was that what lebron is/was..kobe was crap compared to bron and jordan..awful 3p shooter,alright/good around the bssket..awful passer/playmaker while lebron is great in every area of basketball..so please do not open your mouth when you can't analyse it..
The Detroit Pistons didn't fade away due to age. The entire core was 30 or younger. Isiah was less than 2 years older than MJ and Dumars was younger. Rodman was under 30. The Bulls beat the Pistons after they had just won 2 rings in a row and had defeated the Bulls the previous 2 playoff runs.
Lebron in the last 3-4 years has been really good at getting his scoring without doing anything of real value to help his teams. His sole focus is to pad his stats to get longevity records. My issue is at 6’9” and 260 pounds, Lebron should have averaged a double double for his career. He didn’t because he just didn’t try on defense or rebounding at all. MJ tried hard on both ends of the court always. This is also why MJ had a higher peak but shorter peak career. Lebron rested most games while playing, which extended his lower peak.
@@mylesmianscum7298 yep, but we judge based on what actually happened. MJ put in the work so he achieved more. Lebron did not so he ends up a notch down.
Why is it that the older living legends get, they get taller? I remembered often hearing LeBron James being listed at 6' 8" tall. Since he's been with the Lakers, LeBron is now 6' 9" tall. It's amazing how these awesome players continue to grow with age.
Bro you do realize no matter how big he was he played point and probably his first 10 years he was on the court with four players bigger than him. Two on his team and two on the other
@@justinevans182 oh my bad, then he averaged more than 10 assists a game for those years, right? Most of his scoring was done driving to the hoop, so rebounds should have also been a byproduct. He is clearly way more athletic than the bigs he played against. Rebounds are a hustle stat. James doesn’t Hussein after the ball. Rodman and Barkley were both smaller players than Lebron and averaged double digit rebounds for their careers in a league with actual big men in the paint.
LeBron isn't even close; it's a joke. Stats need context. Jordan, as a SG, is one of the greatest rebounders ever for his position. LeBron isn't even in the conversation for being a great rebounding SF. He's basically average. Jordan as a SG, is the greatest playmaker and passer ever at his position. LeBron has basically played PG/scorer, with the entire offense running through him - the assists are overrated. Jordan gets the nod in both areas. Defensively, it's a joke to even make the comparison. LeBron quits on so many plays, shows up sometimes, totally fizzes out other times - basically never takes the challenge of shutting down the opposing teams best player, most certainly not night in and night out. Jordan is widely considered, and rightfully, the greatest defensive guard ever. LeBron, again, not even in the conversation for greatest defensive forward or SF, even. And obviously Jordan is the greatest scorer of all-time, and one of the best shooters ever - 3-point shots were considered a bad shot/last resort when he was in the league - if he had felt he needed to extend his game to the 3-point line, Jordan would have been elite. His mid-range game is unparalleled. Whereas LeBron has shot 34% from outside 3 feet for his career. He's actually a bad shooter, not even league average. His strength is getting to the basket and scoring there, where he takes the vast majority of his shots - and Jordan is better at getting to the basket, too, lmao. Let's not forget that Jordan played in an era where defense mattered - no free layups/dunks rule used to exist. Hand-checking. This completely changes what an offensive player can do. The league was brutal back then compared to LeBron's days in the modern NBA. If Jordan played in today's rules, he wouldn't even need a 3 point shot now. He'd be unguardable, even more so - he'd get anywhere he wanted at any time. Rodman and Pippen have both said he could average 50 in today's game, and it's not an exaggeration. And this is without even going into LeBron's obvious PED/Steroid usage - his trainer was on the list when all those MLB players were caught. There's little doubt. There is no actual debate. It's manufactured by the media.
There's a lot I didn't cover, obviously. I didn't even talk about the winning, rings, teammates, etc. But Jordan is superior in every aspect. Even the longevity conversation, which is given to LeBron as some big plus completely out of context.
@@ryanb2607 Regarding longevity, Micheal did more in 9 years with the Bulls than Lebron did his entire career. Lebron needed more years to do what he did and still haven't surpassed Jordan in many categories. Jordan did it in a more defensive and tougher league, the lebron fans hate this fact so they just dismiss it. I remember someone pointed out that Jordan accomplished more in his 13 year total with the Bulls than Durant and Lebron careers combined. I'm trying to find the video. Also, Lebron wasn't as exciting to watch. I was not a bulls fan growing up, but I still loved watching Jordan. When Lebron came on the scene, I was like "meh." Lebron is basically Magic Johnson 2.0. It didn't catch my excitement the way Jordan did. Also, I'm not a Lakers fan, but I always like watching Kobe more than Lebron. In short, I think the ultimate test of GOAT status is the eye test. My little brother is of the Lebron generation. But when he started to watch game reels of Jordan he actually asked me "why does this Jordan guy play better than Lebron? I thought they said Lebron was the best"
@@Lifted001weak ass legacy? Go tell Jordan beat some real competition in the finals like the 73 win warriors lol y'all some big ass fanboys 🤣😂 lebron has far more talented players, scorer's, defenders, and playmakers then mike but y'all sounding like bitter black woman because they compare him to y'all daddy Jordan. 😭🤣
The question that really needs to be asked is how much of the damage to LeBron legacy is self inflicted? He didn't have to play gm, he could have bought into a system. He chose to do it his way, so you have to accept the good with the bad. The decisions he made led him to his records and he's just gotta live with it.
He blew up the Lakers Championship roster from the Bubble in favor to get Russell Westbrook to try to prove he could win a chip with Westbrook something KD never did. Yet Lebron is supposed to have such a high basketball IQ anyone with 2 eyes could see adding Westbrook was one of the dumbest moves he ever did.
This isn’t a debate to me and never has been. It’s just ppls opinions and a lot of the time it’s not even about basketball, it’s about whoever’s bias. That’s why I don’t waste time trying to convince anyone. I just know only one of these dudes got out scored by Jason Terry and COOKED 👨🏼🍳 by little Ole JJ Barea in “The Finals”. Another reason why it isn’t a debate to me. If only one of these guys got roasted in the finals, how could he be the goat over the the one that has never been nowhere near roasted in finals… ? Only one of these guys got to the finals and didn’t even lead their own team in scoring. Me personally, I could never have that guy as the goat and especially when the other guy has never been outscore in the finals by anyone. That just doesn’t make sense to me. But to each his own. I ain’t mad at nobody. Blessings!!
I don't even watch basket but how is "finals" (in any competition) so important, it's overrated. If you get to more finals I would say it's way more respectable, especially with a worse team
@@MashuSlyferiux Aye maybe you should start watching bc the statement you made kinda don’t make sense even with it being just your opinion. I really don’t understand how you can be impressed by someone just making it to the finals. You do realize that you don’t ring for that right?? Or a banner. HeII, you don’t even get a parade. That’s like saying, it’s more impressive for someone to make the Olympics than it is for the person who actually won the race. Although I do agree that it would be impressive if someone took a bunch of scrubs and carried them all the way to the finals. But if we’re talking about MJ’s teams compared to Brons teams then I’ll tell you that it ain’t even close. LeBron has played with far better players and on teams that had multiple allstars. MJ won 2 championships on teams that had “0” players make All-Star during those seasons. Now that’s some really impressive Sh*t if you want to talk about things that a person should be impressed by.
I’m 53 and I watched MJ from college to the wizards. The eye test you were absolutely correct. However some ppl wouldn’t understand how MJ changed sports period. Ppl didn’t buy jjerseys hats and shoes. That was Jordan. And lastly how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1984? I’d say less than 10. Now about half the league.
One of the Greatest moments of basketball when MJ dunked on Patrick Ewing, Anthony Mason and John Starks in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks, the announcer Marv Albert screamed "Michael Jordan, with no regard for human life..."
Not a bad video for a youngling ;) But one thing that I would add as an old-head -- I think what a lot of people misunderstand when they talk about MJ's great teammates -- none of them (aside maybe from Rodman?) had ANY reputation for being great before they joined the Bulls with MJ as team captain and leader of the squad. Not Pippen at all, not Paxson, not Kerr, not Grant. The only 2 players that had real careers before him were Rodman and Parrish (and Parrish was done LOL). But Rodman was off the rails and on his way out and MJ's request for him saved and essentially gave new his career a 2nd life. And no doubt Phil was an amazing coach and helped with Rodman in that 2nd 3-peat, but even Phil wasn't "that guy" when he stepped in as head coach. He was a nobody. He was the equivalent of what Adrian Griffen is right now on the Bucks -- a team full of talent and potential but will he rise to the occasion or fail? That's who Phil was when he started coaching MJ. Nobody. And through time together they all became the best. It's really a mistake though to pretend as though any of those teammates were "all star" caliber at all when they were drafted or added if you're going to make comparisons -- none of them were. That's a historical mistake. They became and were elevated to that over time. And none of that is to take away ANYTHING from what any of them accomplished -- they still deserve it. But people forget that aside from a very few people -- they're not dropped in as great day 1. That's built over time, and sometimes, often with the help and honing of someone else. MJ came into the league on fire with really no one to guide him, and as he aged he became the leader of his team and he set the tone and pace and structure for those he took under his wing (for better or worse). A lot of the amazing defenders (with few exceptions) -- became great having to defend MJ in practice. A lot of those who dedicated to win, did it because they didn't want to lose their spots. The Bulls players worked harder to stay on their roster than most, and their best players worked extra. Not because they got paid more for doing it, and not by some harsh coach, but because their team leader that set the pace set it that way -- and so while LeBron gets credit for having assists as a point forward - that's fine, I think he's got great court vision. I think that MJ's contributions to forcing his teammates to buy in and hone their skills and play their roles and stop messing up -- his insistence that HE had to be able to trust them if they were going to be getting minutes, that's stuff we didn't see on the court, but even the teammates that didn't like him admitted he made them better players. More dedicated. More fierce. And it made them win. For those who weren't around when it all happened miss that context that everything was electric and just like in quantum mechanics -- well once we observed all the greatness, it was observed and now it all seems like it was always there. But before it all happened, the future was unwritten for all of us. We always knew he was great, but no one called him the GOAT in 1990 or 1991. Even when Larry retired in 1992 and had his ceremony in 1993, Magic still called Larry the greatest. MJ still wasn't the GOAT yet to a bunch of people who were still waiting to see what he would do. We knew he was a great player, but we didn't know if he'd be a great winner who elevated his team. People think that because he scored a lot that meant he didn't play team ball-- and the man did score a lot! But his stat lines were a whole lot more than just scoring. He still had some crazy high defense numbers, some of the highest blocks and steals for a guard, and lots of assists and rebounds also for a SG. (And no one even factors in the fact that they count assists way differently now -- so much easier to get assists than it used to be; heck so much easier to score now than it used to be). We didn't know if MJ would be too sick for the flu game. We didn't know if he'd hit winning shots. We didn't know if Paxson or Kerr would hit their 3s. We didn't know how Scottie and Horace and Dennis (well with Dennis we didn't even know if he'd show up or get ejected for important games!). It all seems like it was just all there in place now -- but it was chaotic AF back then, and it's important to remember that the same way we don't know for sure the day LeBron will announce his retirement or how great any new coach will be now, we had no idea back then either. And that's the difference between looking back at history and living through it. You can never know or fully understand what it was like when everything was unknown because now it's all been written.
@@ryanb2607 I'm not baggin' on any kids. I thought it was still a really good video considering. I'm just gettin' old now and I realize I wasn't old enough to APPRECIATE older players at the time, but I do now, because now I understand the context of what that was like to live through something that now people miss. I got to see how exciting the Lakers and Celtic rivalry was. I wasn't old enough to see most of the 70s. But now that I'm older I appreciate other players like Dr. J, Kareem's more impactful peak, Bill and Wilt, understanding that I have no idea what it was like to watch them in their primes -- or really anyone I didn't watch in their primes.
@@Tcheera So... basically the kids don't know what they're talking about 😆 I'm not bagging on them either, it's just an objective fact. They've only watched one era of basketball, have no context, and really have a lot of laughable opinions that one could only hold if they don't really understand the game; objectively. No hate.
@@ryanb2607 I mean plenty of people my age and older don't know what they're talking about either. Most of the commentator / personalities -- it's funny, I loves me some MJ as a fan, but whether they are lovers or haters most of them grate on me because they just sound like morons even if they are old enough. Shannon Sharpe sounds like a dumbass, Skip Bayless sounds like a dumbass, Kendrick Perkins sounds like a dumbass, Nick Wright sounds like a dumbass, JJ Reddick sounds like a dumbass. I mean I laugh at Charles and Shaq -- but I think my favorite part is listening to Shaq for years talk about how filling up your tank at a quarter of a tank saves you money per gallon on gas somehow. Even Stephen A for all his popularity says some dumb shit. So I mean... that's especially why I don't want to bag on youngin's... plenty of cringeworthy not so youngin's. And I'm not saying everyone always has a bad take, but all these guys, they just all sometimes say shit that I'm like wtf are you talking about -- you're too old to be THAT willfully ignorant. But anyway -- until I see someone my age makin' better videos, it's easier to rip people apart in the comments, so I put in my 2 or 25 cents or whatever, but yeah they don't know what they can't know -- but what's the excuse of all the old men on these shows that have no excuse for being so dumb?
Great point. Time will truly test a player's legacy, but time will also gloss over a lot of these subtle details that thugs at our heartstrings as we watch the greats play the game.
Jordan is the GOAT. Hands down. You all are trying to defend a player that loses time after time. It’s all marketing and MSM. If Lebron made his teammates better they’d win but there’s ALWAYS an excuse. I’m not opposed to another player surpassing Jordan but it has to be warranted. Not just because it gets talked about endlessly. Lebron is epitome of repeat the same lies over and over and it’ll be truth to sheep.
Finals loses should never be a negative on someone’s resume. Rings are a team effort and Lebron was the the best player for every finals appearance. Yes you can criticize his 2011 finals performance but look at how he bounced back and made it to 7 more finals. Hes the first player to lead in all major stat categories for both teams.
@@OrangeCrush_Brandon I don’t need your permission on how to view things. Winning is everything, the only thing. One player led his team and won. The other led his team and lost. I don’t excuse or defend losers. If you feel inclined to do so, have fun. You can say he was the “best ever” he STILL lost. You can say he scored the most points, he STILL lost.
@@OrangeCrush_Brandon You can rationalize all you want, at the end of the day the score is what it is. But just keep in mind everyone you defend a loser, that makes YOU a loser. You condone, and lower the standard because it can’t be achieved. Pathetic.
LeBron's last title came from the bubble and Lakers was no position to win if the regular season schedule played out as both LeBron and AD were injured. This debate is made by the media but we all know that this is not even close. If longevity is such an important factor, how come no one credited Karl Malone when he became 2nd alltime scorer. No one is dared to put Malone even in top 15 discussion cos he is simply not a top 15 player. Even Kareem never got any love when it comes to GOAT conversation, yet all of sudden longevity matters with LeBron...
exactly! how can longevity be a highlight now when they have load management? not playing is a disrespect to the fans who wants to see their idol play. I believe MJ knew that and that is why he is consistently playing almost every game of his career... compared to LBJ? even when older version MJ returned from retirement on a very mediocre team he still played for the fans, and almost never misses any game, giving his all and active at both ends of the floor! MJ is a true legend and my GOAT.
Lebron is the only player with 30k pts, 10k ast & 10k Rebs, only delusional Jordan fanboys think it's a gap like the dude said you Jordan stans want people to believe Jordan was far beyond everyone else when that is not true lol.
@@aswangdark lebron is the only player with 30k pts, 10k ast & 10k Rebs lol that's why it's highlighted lol, that's a triple double averaged, I don't know why Jordan stans act like if complain about longevity lol, I mean do really see Jordan finishing his career if he played longer with a triple double averaged????
I love how a teenager that grew up in Lebron's era (and not the whole thing) and try to put all of his effort in defend Lebron's case (like omiting context for the longevity thing) have to put Jordan on top. That's true greatness. You have no option.
About Lebron's decisions, he wasn't forced to make that superteam in Miami. He could have left the back to back 60win cavs if he wanted a better chance, but he didn't have to join the other best player of the conference with a perennial all star in Bosh. So after him doing that you can't call him unfortunate for running into the KD warriors twice, because he is the one who started it. And don't forget, Jordan never failed to win when he was the favourite or had a 50/50 chance. Lebron lost as the favourite several times in his career.
This is hilarious revisionist history. The big 3 Celtics literally formed in 08 so how the hell is he the one to “start it”. When he left Cleveland they won 19 games. Bron is literally the reason WHY they won 60 games.
@@Nightflcn4 So we are gonna ignore that the cavs also changed the head coach and their best player was injured pretty much the entire year? And celtics big 3 were all at least 30 years old and not in their prime unlike what Bron did with Miami. And if Bron by himself was so good to make a 19 win team into a 60 win team, how come he still lost finals with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love?? You don't know what you are talking about
The longevity argument is overstated. How many 82 game seasons Lebron played? And the league became soft over the years and the concept of load management help Lebron's longevity argument.
I would include: Flopping, traveling, turnover and maybe im reaching but i would not ignore the almost obvious use of modern performance-enhancing drugs
This will be a conversation for years to come, but it's not really a debate. When you look at all of their accomplishments, accolades and failures, MJ rises to the top. Lebron is a lot of people's favorite player. They want so desperately for him to be where MJ is. That's why this mess goes on and on.
Eye test alone can’t determine Greatest of all Time, it can only determine your Favorite of all Time. If Eye Test really mattered the most then Duncan and Kareem wouldn’t even be top 20 all time which is clearly absurd.
@@jordandwiggins1026 haha eye test is the icing on the cake. Watching MJ is like watching poetry in motion. Watching lebron is like watching a cat in water.
@@rfpchar still can’t win the rings like Jordan who won 3in row. Left came back won 3 more what are we talking about he was better on defense better on offense won more rings played less time.
I would argue Jordan is also a floor raiser in addition to a ceiling raiser as the Bulls were a lottery team before he got drafted and before the knee injury, the Wizards were playoff bound. They missed it after he got hurt.
If LBJ and MJ are playing on the same night, in the same town, and on two different buildings that are next together, I would pay to see MJ. There were more excitement in most of MJ’s games than anybody else. MJ can dribble any direction; MJ can fly and hang in the air longer than anybody else; MJ can dunk any direction in the air; MJ can should from anywhere………. LBJ can’t shoot free throw……..
Awesome video! Truly, some very impressive work. I would disagree, however, on some of the narrative used to describe LeBron. I wouldn't say he could simply join a new team and alone make them a championship contender. Both Miami and Cleveland (the 2nd time) had some other pretty major factors that made them contenders when he joined. Also, you didn't include LBJ's failures, like totally disappearing against the Mavs or losing to a Spurs team whose stars had all hit mid-30's plus. Jordan never choked like that. Once he got to the big stage he never looked back. A totally linear progression. LeBron went backwards, then forwards, then backwards again. It's no hate towards LeBron, but when you look at what's happened on the finals stage then, imo, it's not even close. A 4-6 record, 22-33, underperforming on multiple occasions. Any real GOAT debate ended with that Dallas series.
The coach conversation is silly to me. MJ made Phil the winning coach he became. In addition, MJ pushed his teammates to be winners. They said it from their own mouths.
@@IsmeyoboyJC Phil is a good coach. But that situation had some luck tied to it. Come on, he ends up with arguably the most dominant NBA player in history in Shaq, and then also have an MJ type player in Kobe, on the SAME team. Had they stayed together, they could've had more chips.
@@AndrewTaylorJr Phil's specialty is turning good teams into great teams. The Bulls were conference finals contenders the year before Phil became the head coach. The Lakers were conference finals contenders and a top 3 team in the West before Phil took over as head coach. He doesn't build teams from the ground up. He sees a high performing team and elevates them to the next level.
@@x-man9473 I hear ya, and I agree. It's a "team" effort, I'm grouping the coach with the players in that statement "team". All credit can't be given to just the players just as all credit can't be given just to the coach. That's my only point. When it comes to MJ in particular, some people like to say that it was only because of Phil the Bulls won so much. Like only Phil alone. That's cap. Just the same as it would be silly saying the only reason alone is MJ. Now, on the matter of the players, MJ holds more of the percentage on why they won so much than any of the other players, that's why he was FMVP all 6 times, but when measured towards coach Phil, I'd say they both have equal value with an edge slightly towards MJ because he's the one actually out there on the floor. Phil can draw plays all day, but if you don't have adequate, confident, and strong players to execute them, it's a waste of ink. MJ was dependable for closing games, probably more than any superstar ever. That's my only point. Phil wasn't a hall of fame or even a winning coach when he arrived to the Bulls. Together(players and him) they became legendary. Phil without MJ, maybe a couple of titles in the 90's. Phil, without Kobe, maybe a couple with Shaq, that's it. Phil without Shaq, maybe a couple with Kobe. Phil without Kobe and Shaq, man who knows.... The players have to be able to do the work the coach formulates. MJ, Kobe, Shaq, they did said work very well. That's why they won and became the legends they are. Not by Phil alone. That was the premise of my post. I hope that makes sense, because again, I do agree with you about Phil. It just ain't all about him though. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, I'm just giving context to why I posted what I did, it applies to others who aim to discredit MJs and his teams accomplishments by overshadowing them with Phil.
@@AndrewTaylorJr We're on the same page. I'm a Chicagoan and I hate the Chicago Bulls. Because, all things considered, Jordan had the least amount of help/talent compared to most legendary winners. Yet, the Bulls organization is the least grateful of his efforts. >MJ had one consistent all-star in Pippen. He had 0 MVP or finals MVP teammates. Curry had KD and Sixers picked up Moses Malone. Russell had Bob Cousy before he joined the team. >MJ was the only franchise star on the team. Modern franchise stars team up to give themselves an easier path to a title. >Other dominant teams were elite offensively and defensively The Bulls were only elite defensively. MJ was carrying them on the offensive end. >The Bulls also had durability issues. Outside of 1991, every other championship year had his teammates missing a giant stretch of games during the season and getting limit restrictions during playoff runs. >Despite all of this, Jordan praises his teammates in media whenever he gets the change. Yet, the organization isn't grateful. Every other week, Pippen or some other teammate has to come out and say "MJ could have done blank better". And let's not forget Krause, who literally broke the team up because he felt "he wasn't getting enough credit". The Bulls existed since the 1960s. They haven't won a championship (or even made a finals) before or after MJ. That's no coincidence. MJ's success mislead people into thinking that the Bulls were a competent organization.
Made me genuinely sad that you copared their FG%/TS% without pointing out that LeBron takes most of his "shots" from 1-3 feet, whereas Jordan was a midrange assassin vs. real defenders. ...and talked about all-time awards/stats outside of the context of longevity, which is the only place they belong.
Exactly. LeDiva is a horrible jump shooter. MJ was pure, smooth, effortless with his jumpshot. MJ did what it took to win. Nothin else. He didn’t care about anything else. LeBron scans the cameras and crowds to make sure he’s being watched. The guy is a walking/Talking cringe fest.
how about the negatives? flops? turnovers? quiting? laziness? body language during the game? load management abuse? stat padding? comparisons of winning and losing percentages with/without them on the team? so yeah, there are so many factors and that is why the eye test is the best of all test. hahaha!
@@Ghost-rb6cw MJ was never accused of flopping, or any of those other things. Next time you say something so idiotic, back it up with some facts. Unbelievable!!
I’ll never deny LeBron as an all-time NBA great. But, I simply just can’t buy into any further longevity being used as a merit that warrants taking The GOAT title from MJ. We are now in year 21 of LeBron, yet he’s still playing catch up to everything Jordan has accomplished in far lesser time of 15 total seasons. How much longer are we really supposed to wait for LeBron to “eclipse” Jordan? Because based on difference in years played, he’s had more than enough chances to do that already. He still hasn’t done it. Therefore, the ship has long sailed. I’d rather compare the resumes where they both stood at year 13, the year of Jordan’s 6th championship. I’d rather compare where they both stand at year 15, Jordan’s final mark on the all-time scoring list and where LeBron was still behind at that point of his career. Those resumes are nowhere close when you break it down to those parameters. But, for some reason, we decide to overlook things like this. All of a sudden, longevity is the deciding factor? If that were the case, we should’ve been calling Kareem The GOAT. But, we weren’t doing that, were we? So, why does it change in LeBron’s case? What’s different? That just shows an inconsistency in the criteria we’ve been using all of this time. Almost as if we’re letting him slide with more of the special treatment he’s received his whole entire career. So, let’s make sure we’re still calling a spade, a spade. Based on everything broken down in this video, Jordan has cemented himself an untouchable legacy. Won’t matter if LeBron goes on to play an entire quarter century. “Congrats Bron, only took you 10 more seasons to do it.” Yeah right. That’s simply more that can be said against him. Can’t be The GOAT when you’re still living in someone’s shadow and chasing their ghost. No one has had a greater impact on this game than Michael Jordan and LeBron simply will never be the icon that Jordan still is
Good job overall. Stay objective and keep doing what you enjoy. A few comments of note. 17:25 This graphic is incorrect. MJ was in WAS during his 14th season. 17:48 What was Phil before MJ? Neither Phil nor the triangle were anything from a system perspective. If LBJ wanted to be coached, he had plenty of options to get and grow with one. LBJ got coaches fired and tried to get Spo fired. Look how that would have turned out. Blatt was hired because his success in Europe, and they had the best record in the league when LBJ got him fired. 23:23 Truer words may have never been said. 🤣 I agree with your overall conclusion. There are a few contextual aspects left out but nothing crazy. One thing to consider is MJ played 15 seasons (only 13 with the Bulls, 2 of which were truncated by injury or retirement), retired 3 times, had long gaps between returns and still was successful. LBJ is still trying to catch up to what MJ did in 11 full seasons. Of note as well, MJ never lost when favored in a series. If he had homecourt advantage, he won. LBJ can't say that. IDK what other GOAT candidates can. Again, great job. Keep doing what you enjoy.
Where was lebron suppose to go if he wanted to play with a great coach when he wanted to play with d wade and kyrie Irving??? 🤡 And Jordan didn't had fate in some of the players that Jerry crause was bringing in and wanted players traded after 1991. 🤡🤡🤡
@@Ghost-rb6cw Write something coherent and respectable if you want a thoughtful response, troll. LBJ had a list of coaches on screen. At some point, if you have 9 NBA caliber coaches and you like none of them, you might want to look inwards. MJ didn't want Phil, but he respected Phil enough to allow his growth as well. Things take time. MJ knew he would win with anyone. LBJ knew he needed the world. Have a great day, troll.
@@cameronno6039 lmao 🤣🤣 you're statement was a bit disingenuous sir, you didn't understand why lebron didn't have the luxury to play with a great coach? IT'S BECAUSE HE WANTED TO PLAY WITH WADE AND BOSH...there was legitimate destination for lebron and 2 other top players could have gone to that had a great coach, and the reason I call you a 🤡 it's because you do like what most Jordan fanboys do and that's spread narratives and false propaganda like a 🤡 only for daddy Jordan. 😂😂😂
If anything, MJ played 12 seasons, as in the other three seasons, he missed almost two whole seasons with injuries and one season he came back from first retirement.
Keep in mind today's all stars can team up and not even win gold medals. Bron and many other stars of today's game don't make teammates better. Just athletes that play basketball. Bron gets his coaches fired cause he blames everyone else for losing. Same reason for the 100 plus trades in his career. You can't count pip the same player for all time great player teammates when you clearly named more for Bron.
Good video. That last part saying bron was unfortunate. Why cause he lost six times in the finals to better players and teams. Was it unfortunate Magic lost. Was it unfortunate Kobe went 5 and 2. Fans bring out the small violins for bronze medal bron. Bron is the biggest joke in sports history from my eye test.
So Basically in conclusion best MJ is better than best Lebron. That's one of the reasons why MJ is the GOAT. I'd honestly put best Kobe over Lebron. Just being honest.
the same kobe who couldn’t nearly produce the same numbers in the finals like lbj did even when lbj lost?the same kobe who was robin for more than half his chips? the same bro who lost more matches against lbj in the nba?
MJ is STILL ahead of today's players where skill is concerned. I've watched way too many MJ reaction videos where the reactor compares something MJ did to more recent players, which is wrong because THEY got all that from HIM. MJ could have taken EVERY current player to school on the court, there's no question about it. He was elite on both offense and defense, and never took a play off from hustling. None of the players today put in the work on either side of the ball that he did during his career.
The only reason LeBron averages more rebounds than Jordan is because he's feasting on defensive rebounds, which doesn't have anything to do with offense. Jordan actually averaged far more offensive rebounds than LeBron
@@denzela5539 Have you watched the video? He said that LeBron's a more well-rounded player on offense because he got his teammates more involved and "participated on the boards more than MJ did", while Jordan only scored more. Which is just factually wrong
@@_M1-9 I was talking about rebounds, what does that have to do with points exactly? But to your point: Context matters. LeBron scored the vast majority of his points driving to the hoop in the softest era of the NBA, while Jordan played in a time were you got actually physically punished going to the rim. If you think LeBron could've done this in those times, you probably also believe in the easter bunny
I don't remember Michael Jordan getting outscored in Playoffs and Finals games. Lebron disappears in some of these important games, that matchup against Jason Terry in Finals 2011 was such a low light for him that commentators gets to question if he can even guard Terry, I don't think that can happen to Jordan, he is too much of a fierce competitor. And that makes Jordan the greatest ever for me.
Fg % is by far Mike. He was a much better shooter than LeBron, almost automatic at mid range. LeBron is honestly as much as a liability, shooting (even more in the clutch) as he’s much as he is on defense.
Great video. This debate is fun to have and leaves people discontent on both sides. For me, the eye test speaks volumes! MJ made you want to play basketball. Nike wasn’t big because of its brand, it was because it represented MJ and the world wanted a piece of that. They still do. Lastly, I don’t know why this doesn’t get discussed. MJ’s team was great, because MJ was the leader of that team. He was aggressive and maniacal towards winning. His teammates couldn’t make mistakes. If they did, they certainly would hear it from him. He accepted no less than 100%. If you have the right guys around you to accept this challenge, your team will win with a leader like MJ. MJ was always a winner until he retired the second time because his body took on too much. College, Olympics, and NBA. So that’s my take.
Personally, Bron makes me wanna play ball. His playmaking tendencies bring me to the intellectual side of the game, which is how I used to play back in the day. I also do prefer Bron's pat in the back leadership style, I was never a fan of MJ/Kobe's leadership style, and while both styles have their drawbacks, the latter often is not the healthiest. I've encountered similar individuals in my basketball teams, and even now at work, and it's not the most pleasant. To each your own, but it boils down to one's upbringing.
If Lebron's longevity production without the accolades and success is or ever was enough to overtake Jordan, then he has already done it. The thing is the gap between their career accomplishments is way too big at the moment, and likely won't change.
28:04 People have been saying that since 2018 and still nothing has changed. Lebron can olay 25 plus years and he still wont accomplish what MJ did by year 13
About Phil Jackson, before becoming the head coch of the Bulls, he was a NOBODY. And MJ accepted the challenge of changing his game under him, unlike Lebron, who never changed his playstyle and just fired the coaches that he didn't like.
@@alejandroquintero1353 That's my point, he was just an assistant, so he wasn't a known, proven and a respected coach when he got the Job, but MJ didn't go out of his way to fire him and instead agreed to change his game while being the unanimous best player in the league already.
Different set of NBA rules , M.J. was the only max contract Francise player on the Bulls team. LeBron had two other legit max contract players on his teams.
It's not just old heads. A lot of younger NBA fans who are finally seeing highlights and games and MJ can't believe what they're looking at. The Warriors were not a Super Team. That team was built through the draft just like teams in the past. He wasn't forced to play GM. He chose to play GM because he has to be in control of everything. He had no reason to leave Miami other than saving face by going back to Cleveland
For the most part the creator of the video didn't use context. This debate is not even close. Jordan by himself worlds apart from everyone else. 1 of the better videos on the Internet thou. Good work young man
This is a great video. One thing I want to clarify for people though about the "Help" section where you talk about wins without star players. What people need to take into account is that this is kind of a "survivor bias" for Lebron. We talk about who they didn't have (star players) but not mentioning who they did have. Although they didn't have allstars, lebron's team was still avg stat wise compared to their conference AND they were a top defense for several years. Jordan literally had drug addicts , broke his foot one of those games, and came in when the bulls previously had their worse record in franchise history. They were also going against better competition in the conference. This is important to keep in mind. There is a reason the "Lestern Conference" is a meme. He had no competiton and actually had the best team until Drose and them came about but that was obviously short-lived. and as for legacy, Lebron DID catch a break. He went to Miami. I understand where you're coming from with the backlash for starting "super teams" and getting shit for leaving Cavs but he ran to the 3rd best shooting guard of all time who was the 2nd best player in the conference and 3rd overall behind Kobe and Lebron. Wade was fmvp. I think this running to a team wouldn't be as bad if he won 2011 but didn't. I think that personally hurt the goat debate for lebron because even with context, there isn't any good argument on how you lose to Dirk while being 28 and in your prime winning back to back MVPs previous years, having Wade who avg 27 and bosh who avg 24 that series and still lose. That is a big hit. To me, 2016 at best only balances that out. There are no black streaks against Jordan's legacy. Dude performed every single series. Name one series he did horrible in. Name one series where he wasn't the top player. Sure, he lost in the first round before pippen but everyone who actually watches Ball and not highlights know the things you talk about in this video. He went against 60 win teams and had bum addicts as teammates. He went against a 67 5 HOF stacked celtics at the same time Bird won 3 mvps in a row. No one was beating that team. Not to mention Pip was playing 79 games and didn't start any of them before playing with MJ. So it's not like Pip was a god prior to MJ.
I really appreciate your hardwork and time to collect all this data so that we can watch an amazing comparision video, props to you👍🏼👍🏼, btw...yeah MJ is the Goat🔥
You lost me at "data driven" there's so much Le Stat Padding that Lebron does its useless data. That's why when he loses he says "check my stats" instead of taking responsibility and vowing to do better and improve for next time.
its the amount if championships and how they did it only matters, how lebron losing those championships and how mj did 2x 3peat and ofcourse the season mvp. also mj doesnt have a weakness, lebron his freethrows
@@ElliotScottDating Of course he won 5 more. He had a player in Kobe that played just like Jordan and had the same killer instinct and mental toughness as Jordan and let’s not even talk about Shaq
MJ press conference after a 3-peat - I can't call myself the greatest. Because it's disrespectful to the guy's. That came before me because I never got to play against them.. Bron after getting swept - I'm still better than 95% percent of the league.. Definitely on different levels as far as humility
You don’t take context in account for shooting%. LBJ shoots 37% outside of 3 feet. And in clutch time, he shot 20 out of 112 according to basketball reference. LBJ is a poor shooter. And for stats, you should have use per 100 possessions to compare. Because there is more possessions nowadays with the change of rules, it’s easier to have more stats across the board post 2004 than before.
If the question was who was more dominant at their peek in their era the answer is fairly obvious, but I think what most Lebron fans actually think is that if Michael joined the league today he wouldn’t be that great… I can say for what it’s worth I felt the same way till I watched enough film to change my perspective
Jordan actually wins in points and steals by a lot, and also dominates LeBron in offensive rebounds. And Jordan wins in blocks. They aren't tied. LeBron has defensive rebounds and assists. That's all. Best scoring seasons total points #1 Jordan 87' 3,041(lead league) #2 Jordan 88' 2,868(lead league) #3 Jordan 90' 2,753(lead league) #4 Jordan 89' 2,633(lead league) #5 Jordan 91' 2,580(lead league) #6 Jordan 93' 2,541(lead league) #7 Jordan 96' 2,491(lead league) #8 LeBron 06' 2,478 #9 Jordan 97' 2,431(lead league) #10 Jordan 92' 2,404(lead league) #11 Jordan 98' 2,357(lead league) #12 Jordan 85'(rookie season) 2,313(lead league) #13 LeBron 09' 2,304 #14 LeBron 10' 2,258 #15 LeBron 18' 2,251(lead league) Best steal seasons #1 Jordan 88' 259(lead league) #2 Jordan 87' 236 #3 Jordan 89' 234 #4 Jordan 90' 227(lead league) #5 Jordan 91' 223 #6 Jordan 93' 221(lead league) #7 Jordan 85' 196 #8 Jordan 92' 182 #9 Jordan 96' 180 #10 LeBron 05' 177 #11 Jordan 98' 141 #12 Jordan 97' 140 #13 LeBron 08' 138 #14 LeBron 09' 137 #15 LeBron 04' 130 Jordan holds the NBA record for most 200 steal seasons and most 180 steal seasons. LeBron's career high is 177. Best blocking seasons #1 Jordan 88' 131(14th in league) #2 Jordan 87' 125(16th in league) #3 LeBron 09' 93 #4 Jordan 91' 83 #5 LeBron 08' 81 #6 LeBron 10' 77 #7 Jordan 92' 75 #8 LeBron 18' 71 #9 Jordan 85' 69 #10 LeBron 13' 67 #11 LeBron 06' 66 #12 Jordan 89' 65 #13 Jordan 93' 61 #14 LeBron 22' 59 #15 LeBron 04' 58 Best offensive rebounding seasons #1 Jordan 85' 167 #2 Jordan 87' 166 #3 Jordan 89' 149 #4 Jordan 96' 148 #5 Jordan 90' 143 #6 Jordan 88' 139 #7 Jordan 93' 135 #8 LeBron 08' 133 #9 Jordan 98' 130 #10 Jordan 91' 118 #11 Jordan 97' 113 #12 LeBron 05' 111 #13 LeBron 16' 111 #14 LeBron 09' 106 #15 LeBron 04' 99
17:55 one thing that you need to go back and correct that is Phil Jackson not a great head coach when he was still learning how to coach. He was a great coach with six championships when he was coaching Kobe and Shaq.
context🤦♂️ 2011 it was all his fault. 2014 the spurs WHOLE TEAM put up 2016 curry like numbers while chris bosh always struggled when the light shine the brightest and d wade knee was on life suport. 2015 love and kyrie where hurt LITERALLY the second and 3 best player. 17 and 18 he had a weak af team vs the greatest team ever assembled and still outperformed everybody. u my man is a casual
My opinion will always be MJ, but I can understand why someone who didn’t see MJ night in, night out but has watched LeBron would side with Bron. He’s an incredible baller and deserves respect. But these are different players, different eras, also I’m surprised you didn’t bring up that they play different positions because that does matter. Personally I think that in this less physically punishing game today that Jordan would’ve put up crazier numbers, where as LeBron playing back in the rougher game of the 80’s and 90’s would’ve hurt his numbers overall and he might not have enjoyed the longevity he’s become known for.
Great content here, love the nuanced look at this contentious goat debate. Very impressive considering you’re only 19, from a 37 year old hoops fan well done!
Not a bad video, however. Lebron never had to deal with a team like the 80s Celtics in the eastern conference so MJ losing with that bulls team early in his career is completely overblown. Stats are ultimately the biggest deciding factor for a lot of people. But I think another great way of viewing the convo, is that jordan was the spark that jumpstarted a dying franchise in Chicago to 6 championships and left an impression on fans and everyone around the world in awe, so much so.. he was the most marketable icon in sports history. People couldn’t believe what they were watching, even non basketball fans. He was so far ahead of his time that even today nobody can amount to it. I think the eye test is the most intriguing point because it give you the most accurate detail to each guy. Jordan was lean, incredibly strong for his size, cat quick, so skilled on the fly and improvising, could jump in a phone booth, massive hands. I’m 31 years old and played and watched basketball my whole life and never seen anything like Michael jordan. A once in a lifetime person.
Interesting video, but despite your noble attempt to show yourself as neutral, it is evident in the end your are a LBJ-Supporter. There's nothing wrong w-that it's just that many individuals who put in the hard work to look into this bogus debate between Michael Jordan ..AKA-the GOAT of basketball, and really good player Lebron James is more than just stats of advanced stats although persons like Jimmy HIghroller, Skap Attack, Uncommon cents, 2raw 4sports, BTM and so many others have studied this topic in depth and have proven w/o a shadow of a doubt MJ is superior. He ave about 79.5 games in all of his full non-injured; non-retired seasons, he played in a much more difficult era to score, he ave over 30pts per game w/o jacking up 3's or bulling his way to the basket like LBJ's don for most of the last 7-8yrs.... All he needed was 1-All Star, just one in a harder to score league and it was lights out Bulls are champions... Lebron is ball dominant, w/o the ball he stands, he has no "bag" as is the saying to day 40% of LBJ's shots are within 3ft of the bucket, and yet his field-goal percentage isn't even 1% better. Micheal was All-Defense in all the years he was scoring chanp; led the league in steals 3x, has ave as many blocked shops as a guy 3" taller, I will leave rumors about LBJ-longevity out; although it's in credible w-all that durability he' only played 1-82 game season in 21yrs... AS for Phil Jackson, he became a Hall of Fame Coach while coaching MJ, who was there before Jackson started. finally stop disrespecting KOBE Bryant-the closest thing there has been to MJ.....THE-GOAT
Statistics do not take into account how the game is played - defense is almost non existent in NBA, allowing LeBron to stroll and dunk. MJ era players were hand and body checked and slammed all the time.
LeBron played with: Brandon Ingram Lonzo Ball Kyle Kuzma Rajan Rondo Dwyane Wade Zydrunas Ilgauskas Carlos Boozer Ben Wallace Kevin Love Larry Hughes Mo Williams Andre Drummond Dwight Howard Kyrie Irving Anthony Davis Chris Bosh Kevin Love Isaiah Thomas Derrick Rose Russ Westbrook Carmelo Anthony Ray Allen Jordan Clarkson Kyle Korver Shaq Antawn Jamison Dennis Schröder Rashard Lewis
I respect LeBron a lot more after seeing this video, but I still think Jordan is the undisputed GOAT the thing is Jordan never had anyone called the goat over him throughout his entire career like LeBron has now, when Jordan got his first 3peat he was happy because Magic or Larry had never done that so he really didn’t have anything else to chase. But LeBron has been hearing Jordan is the goat for his entire career and now with social media, he knows he has to score a certain amount of points every game, and has to play a certain amount of years to try to convince the majority of people, saying Jordan is the goat, so that’s what he’s doing now I’m sure when Jordan was playing if there were a player that the majority of people were saying is the goat he would have played longer and tried to break every single record like LeBron is doing to show the majority that he is the goat
@@canjoestar1449 I truly believe this is what’s going on and LeBron has found an angle which is his longevity so if he can continue to impress people with that and maybe luck up on a couple more championships, that’s his plan and strategy
While I agree with what you said. You missed the fear factor category. When most of the top 75 players of all time feared you, it speaks volume. In Lebron's time nobody ever truly feared him despite his immense skills. While most young people who never played basketball in past and only witnessed LeBron and started playing ball jacking up threes. It's understandable that they think LeBron is great but to those like me who actually played ball since MJs 4th championship until now. I can tell you that Lebron's era is way too easy compare to MJs quest to his rings. Though LeBron is obviously putting up stats throughout his career, he is really not the best in his era being beaten by the likes of Embiid, Jokic, and other superstars on MVP awards, being beaten by the likes of Marcus Smart, Draymond Green and others for DPOYs. That is why the goat debate is a one sided one to MJ no matter what they tried to bring to the table to make a case for Bron. I can only laugh 😂😂😂 whenever I hear someone saying LeBron is the GOAT.
How is fear relevant to the GOAT discussion? It's about who played better, not who was feared more. Having more people fear you actually hurts your case because it means you played against a large group of mentally weak men.
@@Zion122 You call the likes of the top 75 HOF mentally weak? 😂😂😂Be my guest, believe whatever you believe but one thing is certain, they will not say all that shit they say about MJ if it is for nothing.
I still think Jordan's most impressive year was 88-89 when he played as a point guard. 10 triple doubles in 11 games is nuts, and his averages were even more nuts in that short span. It makes me wonder how his stats would be if he continued as a point guard for the rest of his career.
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
Jordan played basicly 13 seasons and he did everything in 11 healthy sesons with Bulls that is scary.
Yeah basically injured all of his second year but still dropped 63 on a star stacked Celtic team that only lost 1 home game that year and Jordan put 63 on them on their home court and of course still lost. 63 is still the playoff high.
Jordan’s other 1/4 of a season was his comeback year in which I think he played 25 or less games. I don’t even like to talk about the wizards in which jordan took 3 years off and used the season to get in shape and was still an all star.
I think lebron doesn’t get enough respect but jordan is absolutely a better player but argument I think is more reasonable is that jordan and lebron at best are equal. Lebron just can’t do anything to pass him especially winning titles. I don’t like simply calling jordan the goat off of 6 for 6 in the finals. It was different eras and circumstances that they faced and is basically comparing apples to oranges. In all I can’t ignore what lebron has done and it’s damn close to jordan.
Lebron can debate him having the best resume but I’m taking jordan over lebron as a player.
@@joejett5084 he played 18 games in 85 and 17 games in comeback in 95 i think from my head.Jordan is better player for me.I watched Jordan since 89 and LeBron since day one and for me Jordan is solid number 1.I respect your take and cant argue with that.
@@krces1 I first saw him in the 91 championship
@@joejett5084 you started with best version of Jordan 31ppg 11apg 6rpg 56%fg.That was the most perfect finals perfomance that i saw from a NBA player.
@@joejett5084thats real, I respect that. Personally I got Bron as #1, but both are great and top 2 all time. This debate is honestly subjective though, the fact that people try to put down the other is crazy. At the end of the day, they all better then we'll ever be 😂💯
before coming to the bulls, Phil Jackson was coaching a Puerto Rican basketball team. The triangle was a brainchild of Tex Winters (asst coach). Yes, Michael benefitted having Phil as the coach, but that goes both ways. The triangle offense will only work if you have an apex scorer in your team. That's why it worked with the bulls and the shaq/kobi lakers. Go asked Phil why it didn't work in NY. Another thing, Jordan is coachable. He listens and respects his coaches and he's not afraid to buy into a system if it will help him win. Can you say the same about lebron?
I actually think the exact opposite about jordan and don't think you can actually reason what you do here. A lot of Jordan success came from Jackson. The rebuild after Jordan's dad's death showed that. In addition, Jordan played less team ball, didn't buy into the coach' Jackson's plays often not passing until he got kerr, played as a scorer and weak side defender to help. Lebron played as a main defender to shut down some teams, as well as weak side defender. Lebron played forward and guard, played with the ball and off the ball. Lebron specifically worked well with Spoestra. The spurs and the Mavericks would handled the game differently against the bulls. The bulls didn't have to play against large outside defenders that could shoot like robert horry, ben wallace, tyson chandler, or KG. Also, The triangle was innovative because it broke the very common zone defense. Phil Jackson didn't just learn the triangle and didn't mainly use it in LA (look at how other teams tried the triangle and it lost to robert horry over and over because of how phil adjusted his defense against it)Lebron is definitely more about the team and tends to run plays. Lebron played in 3 different defensive schemes and on technical merit and pure skill is better. Jordan use to just kind of sit with his hands down until he had the ball, rarely set screens and took worse shots against worse defenders. Jordan basically just barked at people if they played bad. Lebron explains exactly what went wrong and what exaclty teammates could learn. That was the challenge of the dream team was to try and get Jordan to play with chuck. After jordan left phil Jackson he had tons of problems with players and coaches. Lebron is the GOAT, a complete player, and Jordan is the best ball handler and scorer ever. I don't even think you can truly even say Jordan was better than Kobe as Kobe played screen, pick and rolls, made plays without the ball and had a better defensive rating. My top 5 all time is 1. Lebron 2. Kobe 3. Duncan 4. Jordan 5. Magic ... Even players today like steph just can't do as much as the big guards like tmac, kobe, jordan. A lot of disagreement to your comment.
@@tokdo4960 "Jordan like to sit and just wait for the ball". You wrote a lot of nonsense but that simple statement is all i need to know that you have never seen a single full basketball game of Jordan. There's plenty you can find in youtube. don't just watch the highlights.
@@tonyt888 You haven't watched enough jordon. Bird killed him over and over because of this. Jordan never beat bird, if he didn't have the ball, he was mostly just chilling. Once he had the ball most of the time it was just get out of the way. Lebron is much more active and less predictable.
@@tokdo4960 you are correct about Jordan losing against the Bird led Celtics that happened to be one of the all time great teams. At least Jordan didn't choke against the 2011 Mavericks being outplayed by a bench player Jason Terry. Jordan never lost in the finals while Lebron got swept 2x in the finals. Lebron got too many failures to be considered a GOAT. Yes he lost in the 80's but that' was part of his story. Physically he played the best ball in those years and it was a beauty to watch. oh btw, you must be on crack if you think Lebron is a much more active and less predictable player than Jordan. In the history of the league, there were only 4 times a player was able to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks. hint. out of the 4, Jordan did it twice. So that means If Jordan was scoring 30+ a night and having 200+ steals and a 100+ blocks in a season, who do you think is more active. next time come back with facts instead of saying generalized things like all jordan did was wait for the ball. end
This new argument that Jordan owes all his success to his coach is baffling and I have never heard that used in any other discussions of greatest individual athletes ever. The desperation is pathetic.
When you're good at something, you'll tell everyone. When you're great at something, they'll tell you. -Walter Payton
Amen to that!!! Gotta love Walter Peyton. I remember watching him play
And Jordan never publicly said he was the best
"When you're good at something....never do it for free." -Joker
@@Mhr6685 not a jordan hater or anything but didn't he say one time that he could beat anyone ever in a game of basketball
so i guess kobe and shaq aren't good
It wasn't the stats that made Jordan the goat it was the eye test people couldn't believe what they were seeing
You got to be kidding me. You could say the same thing for Lebron. His eye test is absolutely incredible and exceeds Jordan. People couldn't believe how a 6'9 250 lb man flops all the time.
@@tatteredprince2097😂😂😂
@@tatteredprince2097😂
@@tatteredprince2097 Dude. smh.
@@tatteredprince2097😂😂
Nice video but one thing you should keep in mind is that Phil Jackson was not as accomplished before he took over as the Bulls head coach in the 1990 offseason.
Correct. Jordan made Phil, not the other way around.
@@ryanb2607 in what world Jordan made Phil??? 😳😭🤣🤡
how many nba championship does phil got before jordan. how many nba team he had coach before jordan?
@@Ghost-rb6cw The Triangle offense which Phil implemented doesn't work with anyone. You NEED players like Jordan or Kobe to make it work. There is a reason it didn't work in NY. They complimented each other. Jordan was avg more before phil came in. Phil needed exactly what Jordan had. He was coaching a small team in Puerto Rico before joining Bulls
@@ElliotScottDating and superstars need great coaches as well in alot of cases.
At 16:00 he makes probably the most interesting point. MJ had tougher conference competition and less finals competition, which lead to less trips to the finals but always winning when he's there. While LBJ had less conference competition and tougher finals competition, which lead to him having more finals appearances but less wins when he is there.
That’s also BS because LeBron had less strong opposition to reach the finals! Making again a case for MJ. The Bulls didn’t have to beat just one strong team to win…. And i‘ve seen all finals and I can tell you that the sonics, and the Jazz were very good teams with HOF players. So in the end, MJ was dominant against stronger teams in a much harder league than LeBron. His 10 years of peak are unreachable and that is why nobody could beat the Bulls. Pippen of course was a big part of it, the rest were role players.
@@fan2hd277oh please lebron has played 29 hall of famers in his playoff career while jordan has played 9. Jerry Krause and Phil Jackson made jordan into a winner he would have never won anything. He is 1-9 without pippen his finals comp was weak I could just tell you didnt watch the horrible cavs front office that LeBron had for most of his career he would have won nothing in cleveland. Put bron is MJ position hes winning 10 rings and hes not quitting.
Leastern conference.. There was a reason why that was called
@@undergroundplug3135are you done crying ? MJ is the goat my boy.. this man literally made a video 🤣🤣 what else do you want
@@rossejera1661it definitely wasn’t the leastern conference. You lebron haters only called it that. I have never heard anyone out side of Jordan lovers call it that. The raptors had the best record for a few years and LeBron swept them multiple times. Title favorites mind you. No one in the East he faced was an easy team. The Spurs, the Celtics, the pistons, the bulls. So on and so on bruh 😂😂😂 nice try buddy
If Lebron has been playing 20+ years and Jordan is still clearly the better player I don't get why some people say Lebron can still do something in the near future that will get him past Jordan 😂 the debate is over and it should've never been a debate in the first place. Kobe was the closest we ever got to Jordan
LeBron is hoping that he luck up on a couple more championships and he knows his longevity is really all he has at this point so he’s going to continue to play since everyone seems to be so amazed by what he’s doing but no one wants to factor in the technology medicine and training of today is much better than what it was when Jordan last played
I don't know what they're thinking. He'll pull some long-hidden talent out of his ass?
Bron is better than Kobe, let the man rest in peace bro. Also if Bron won 2 more rings and fmvps he would be better than Jordan right, bc he already has the stats. You can't have the debate until he hangs it up, bc were comparing legacy, and Bron still playing. Although this debate is pointless bc its all subjective and opinion based, but just bc its opinion based doesn't mean there isn't one.
@@abnerallen2334 so because Kobe passed away I'm supposed to just forget he was better than Lebron? You sound stupid. You mean the stats that took him 20+ years to accumulate? Jordan did more in less time and still sits on top of the advanced stats 😂
Yea there were some dumb things said in this video, that being the dumbest by far 😂 I think he was just trying to appeal to Lebron fans.
Lebron can average a triple double for 10 more years and still won’t ever top prime MJ. No one has yet to be able to do so… MJ dominated on BOTH ends of the floor, more so in the playoffs and specially in the finals. No one can say that but MJ
You sound like a fan boy now
Jordan played with more defensive players then lebron, so of course he would been able to play alot more on the defensive end.
MJ was playing both ends BEFORE Pip and Grant arrived, and certainly before Rodman. FACTS, NOT FANDOM! Pip became a defensive whiz by playing against MJ. Facts.
Bird's prime is better than anyone's ever. The only exception might be Magic, but still debatable.
@@Kendricktimes2where did he lie though... Facts over feelings sir
On the 6th day, Jordan created Pippen.
exactly! LBJ just asked for help :D or transfers to another team. Maybe loyalty and perseverance should be given credit too. :D
You know Pippen went back on his words. Like everything he said good about Michael Jordan
What did pippen do without Jordan on a loaded team? Not shit😂 jordan was a monster b4 pippen dummy. N lebron has had so much more help😂
Blasphemy?
Blasphemy
His efficiency out side of 3 feet is shocking
Is shocking means terrible lol
37%
Yeah word, LeBron fans always ignore that aspect of it. They just throw the 0.8% FG difference and make it the end all be all when in reality you examine his shooting outside the layup/dunk range (0-3 ft), his percentage is pretty poor but LeBron with his body frame and strength was able to generate lots of layups/dunks which accounts for such a large % of his stats thus 50.5%.
MJs by distance stats dont exist until late 90s and Wizard years cuz the stat wasn't measured until 1997 but even a near 40 year old Wizard MJ who was just a shell of himself had better shooting numbers outside 0-3 feet compared to prime LeBron
i agree seeing lbj has better true shoting was like a cap to me. jordan is clearly the better shooter
Ok that may be true but why punish Lebron for taking the easiest shot to make most of the time so that it really didn’t matter
You forgot to mention how misleading Lebron's fg% is when THE VAST MAJORITY of his shots are within 0-5 ft. from the basket, dunks and layups, any further than that and his fg % drops off a cliff.
Oh no it’s bad that LeBron can get consistent shots at the rim 😱😱
@@Nightflcn4 no, its bad that he *CAN'T* get consistent perimeter shots outside of 5 ft, u sound dumb 😂
@@Nightflcn4it’s important context to include in the conversation. Imagine it was the other way, would you accept someone supporting Jordan leaving that out? No
So we should penalize lebron for getting more efficient shots??
@@jaredslabaugh3181 stop playin stoopid, those are more efficient because they are EASIER to make, they are CLOSER to the hoop, when Lebron expands his range to make HARDER shots from further away his fg % falls off a cliff. F Lebron
“If you multiply your shoe size by your hat size, you will get the distance, in centimeters, that you can kick your hat.” -George Carlin
All the number crunching is amusing, and it helps to fuel more debate among those who want to have it, but for most people it just comes down to who you’d rather have if you want to win. I’ve been able to witness the entire careers of both while also being a Lakers fan for 40+ years. Magic and Kobe are my favorite players, but MJ is by far the best I ever saw.
thats the problem, everyone's opinion is different. thats the point of numbers. they are facts that u can analyze universally and interpret. numbers dont lie. numbers arent biased. obviously it gets boring. for me mj also the goat, but there is a reason why its a debate
@@rohangeorge712except for the fact that numbers are dependant on circumstances. Lebron faced much tougher teams
@@alialissa4688Even numbers still backs lebron , but they will say eye test and mamba mentality smh
@@Fab1of1 fax, lebron is the undisputed goat
@@alialissa4688 No
It shows MJ faced tougher competition
Lebron just faced tougher nba finals opponents
Sorry, LBJ didn't HAVE to leave. He chose to. He could have waited a little longer.
But one of the biggest scars on LBJs legacy, was losing to the Mavs in 2011 with his new stacked team.
Wait for what??
Clown
2011 stacked team??
Dallas, yes.
Miami was literally 3 guys.
Anyone who says the Heat had the better team is just some dumbass kid that thinks this shit is 2k.
Anyway how is it so bad to lose against a near 60 win wrst team that destroyed EVERYBODY, including all the others that had an actual team instead of 3 guys...........
@@chrisgoat6435 Oh it's bad.
Give MJ same Heat team against that Dallas team, NO WAY they losing.
You barking up the wrong tree here bro. Everybody and they mama agrees that Heat shouldn't have lost that year with what they had.
And it ain't just about the fact they lost, it's Lebrons performance. HE was supposed to make the different. If you don't know, go look at his stats in that Finals, then talk to me. ✌🏿
@@chrisgoat64356-0 finals winners mentality. The difference between 1st placer and champion are huge. That's why athletes play to win dummy.
Forgot free throws percentage, Turnovers, then you forgot game score, then you forgot wins for competition, rules changes as well. Doug Collins, Kevin Loughery, Phil wasn't a great coach until he had MJ.
LeBron didn't change teams and make them a championship favorite. He joined a finals mvp, Wade in Miami and got an all star in Bosh to join them. It wasn't just LeBron showing up that did that. Same in Cleveland where they brought in Kyrie and Love.
Kyrie and love who had 0 playoff appearances. Wade who was a first round exit the prior year and lebron got all 4 of those finals mvps. Try again.
0 playoff appearances but they were still all star talent. DWADE losing in the first round the year b4 does not change the fact that he was a superstar and established champion when lebron joined him. Try again.@@sportstalkonly1442
Mj has one of the greatest teams/dynasties of all time and look at lebron’s cavs in 2018 and 2007
@@IamveryverylostLeBron played with:
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
Kyle Kuzma
Rajan Rondo
Dwyane Wade
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Carlos Boozer
Ben Wallace
Kevin Love
Larry Hughes
Mo Williams
Andre Drummond
Dwight Howard
Kyrie Irving
Anthony Davis
Chris Bosh
Kevin Love
Isaiah Thomas
Derrick Rose
Russ Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Ray Allen
Jordan Clarkson
Kyle Korver
Shaq
Antawn Jamison
Dennis Schröder
Rashard Lewis
@@sportstalkonly1442cap
I never saw anyone play like MJ in my years of watching the NBA. Kobe came close but MJ played really, really, really different. He was something. There are going to be highlight moves every game. Moves that you've never seen before or even after. Moves that you can't forget. Moves that are for the ages. MJ SIMPLY THE GOAT!
Kone was a inefficient ballhog..only his moves/handles were similar smooth/beautiful...you know efficiency wins you basketball games that what jordan was that what lebron is/was..kobe was crap compared to bron and jordan..awful 3p shooter,alright/good around the bssket..awful passer/playmaker while lebron is great in every area of basketball..so please do not open your mouth when you can't analyse it..
U tell dude to not open his mouth to where lebron is great every area of basketball but does he wins
The Detroit Pistons didn't fade away due to age. The entire core was 30 or younger. Isiah was less than 2 years older than MJ and Dumars was younger. Rodman was under 30.
The Bulls beat the Pistons after they had just won 2 rings in a row and had defeated the Bulls the previous 2 playoff runs.
Lebron in the last 3-4 years has been really good at getting his scoring without doing anything of real value to help his teams. His sole focus is to pad his stats to get longevity records. My issue is at 6’9” and 260 pounds, Lebron should have averaged a double double for his career. He didn’t because he just didn’t try on defense or rebounding at all. MJ tried hard on both ends of the court always. This is also why MJ had a higher peak but shorter peak career. Lebron rested most games while playing, which extended his lower peak.
This points if Lebron didn’t rest he’d have a higher peak? Therefore goat?????
@@mylesmianscum7298 yep, but we judge based on what actually happened. MJ put in the work so he achieved more. Lebron did not so he ends up a notch down.
Why is it that the older living legends get, they get taller? I remembered often hearing LeBron James being listed at 6' 8" tall. Since he's been with the Lakers, LeBron is now 6' 9" tall. It's amazing how these awesome players continue to grow with age.
Bro you do realize no matter how big he was he played point and probably his first 10 years he was on the court with four players bigger than him. Two on his team and two on the other
@@justinevans182 oh my bad, then he averaged more than 10 assists a game for those years, right? Most of his scoring was done driving to the hoop, so rebounds should have also been a byproduct. He is clearly way more athletic than the bigs he played against. Rebounds are a hustle stat. James doesn’t Hussein after the ball. Rodman and Barkley were both smaller players than Lebron and averaged double digit rebounds for their careers in a league with actual big men in the paint.
LeBron isn't even close; it's a joke.
Stats need context. Jordan, as a SG, is one of the greatest rebounders ever for his position. LeBron isn't even in the conversation for being a great rebounding SF. He's basically average. Jordan as a SG, is the greatest playmaker and passer ever at his position. LeBron has basically played PG/scorer, with the entire offense running through him - the assists are overrated. Jordan gets the nod in both areas.
Defensively, it's a joke to even make the comparison. LeBron quits on so many plays, shows up sometimes, totally fizzes out other times - basically never takes the challenge of shutting down the opposing teams best player, most certainly not night in and night out. Jordan is widely considered, and rightfully, the greatest defensive guard ever. LeBron, again, not even in the conversation for greatest defensive forward or SF, even.
And obviously Jordan is the greatest scorer of all-time, and one of the best shooters ever - 3-point shots were considered a bad shot/last resort when he was in the league - if he had felt he needed to extend his game to the 3-point line, Jordan would have been elite. His mid-range game is unparalleled. Whereas LeBron has shot 34% from outside 3 feet for his career. He's actually a bad shooter, not even league average. His strength is getting to the basket and scoring there, where he takes the vast majority of his shots - and Jordan is better at getting to the basket, too, lmao.
Let's not forget that Jordan played in an era where defense mattered - no free layups/dunks rule used to exist. Hand-checking. This completely changes what an offensive player can do. The league was brutal back then compared to LeBron's days in the modern NBA. If Jordan played in today's rules, he wouldn't even need a 3 point shot now. He'd be unguardable, even more so - he'd get anywhere he wanted at any time. Rodman and Pippen have both said he could average 50 in today's game, and it's not an exaggeration.
And this is without even going into LeBron's obvious PED/Steroid usage - his trainer was on the list when all those MLB players were caught. There's little doubt.
There is no actual debate. It's manufactured by the media.
There's a lot I didn't cover, obviously. I didn't even talk about the winning, rings, teammates, etc. But Jordan is superior in every aspect. Even the longevity conversation, which is given to LeBron as some big plus completely out of context.
Absolutely 💯 and if the ped/steroid accusations were ever proven true it would completely crush his already weak ass legacy
100% true! Mercy!
@@ryanb2607 Regarding longevity, Micheal did more in 9 years with the Bulls than Lebron did his entire career. Lebron needed more years to do what he did and still haven't surpassed Jordan in many categories. Jordan did it in a more defensive and tougher league, the lebron fans hate this fact so they just dismiss it.
I remember someone pointed out that Jordan accomplished more in his 13 year total with the Bulls than Durant and Lebron careers combined. I'm trying to find the video.
Also, Lebron wasn't as exciting to watch. I was not a bulls fan growing up, but I still loved watching Jordan. When Lebron came on the scene, I was like "meh." Lebron is basically Magic Johnson 2.0. It didn't catch my excitement the way Jordan did. Also, I'm not a Lakers fan, but I always like watching Kobe more than Lebron.
In short, I think the ultimate test of GOAT status is the eye test. My little brother is of the Lebron generation. But when he started to watch game reels of Jordan he actually asked me "why does this Jordan guy play better than Lebron? I thought they said Lebron was the best"
@@Lifted001weak ass legacy? Go tell Jordan beat some real competition in the finals like the 73 win warriors lol y'all some big ass fanboys 🤣😂 lebron has far more talented players, scorer's, defenders, and playmakers then mike but y'all sounding like bitter black woman because they compare him to y'all daddy Jordan. 😭🤣
The question that really needs to be asked is how much of the damage to LeBron legacy is self inflicted? He didn't have to play gm, he could have bought into a system. He chose to do it his way, so you have to accept the good with the bad. The decisions he made led him to his records and he's just gotta live with it.
Correct
He blew up the Lakers Championship roster from the Bubble in favor to get Russell Westbrook to try to prove he could win a chip with Westbrook something KD never did. Yet Lebron is supposed to have such a high basketball IQ anyone with 2 eyes could see adding Westbrook was one of the dumbest moves he ever did.
@@koolkai4299he didn’t do that. The front office did. Lebron isn’t the gm stop it
This isn’t a debate to me and never has been. It’s just ppls opinions and a lot of the time it’s not even about basketball, it’s about whoever’s bias. That’s why I don’t waste time trying to convince anyone. I just know only one of these dudes got out scored by Jason Terry and COOKED 👨🏼🍳 by little Ole JJ Barea in “The Finals”. Another reason why it isn’t a debate to me. If only one of these guys got roasted in the finals, how could he be the goat over the the one that has never been nowhere near roasted in finals… ? Only one of these guys got to the finals and didn’t even lead their own team in scoring. Me personally, I could never have that guy as the goat and especially when the other guy has never been outscore in the finals by anyone. That just doesn’t make sense to me. But to each his own. I ain’t mad at nobody. Blessings!!
I don't even watch basket but how is "finals" (in any competition) so important, it's overrated. If you get to more finals I would say it's way more respectable, especially with a worse team
@@MashuSlyferiux Aye maybe you should start watching bc the statement you made kinda don’t make sense even with it being just your opinion. I really don’t understand how you can be impressed by someone just making it to the finals. You do realize that you don’t ring for that right?? Or a banner. HeII, you don’t even get a parade. That’s like saying, it’s more impressive for someone to make the Olympics than it is for the person who actually won the race. Although I do agree that it would be impressive if someone took a bunch of scrubs and carried them all the way to the finals. But if we’re talking about MJ’s teams compared to Brons teams then I’ll tell you that it ain’t even close. LeBron has played with far better players and on teams that had multiple allstars. MJ won 2 championships on teams that had “0” players make All-Star during those seasons. Now that’s some really impressive Sh*t if you want to talk about things that a person should be impressed by.
18:00 That's because Lebron gets coaches fired. If he had his way, Spoelstra would've been gone after 2011.
I’m 53 and I watched MJ from college to the wizards. The eye test you were absolutely correct. However some ppl wouldn’t understand how MJ changed sports period. Ppl didn’t buy jjerseys hats and shoes. That was Jordan. And lastly how many foreign players were in the NBA in 1984? I’d say less than 10. Now about half the league.
One of the Greatest moments of basketball when MJ dunked on Patrick Ewing, Anthony Mason and John Starks in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks, the announcer Marv Albert screamed "Michael Jordan, with no regard for human life..."
Mj is my goat 😁
You spelled “the” wrong
@@cnothegoat23 It was right mf.
@@Fabulos1 lol nah
He's the darn GOAT...period.
@@Yawdie590 HE IS THE WRONG GOAT
One thing that wasn't mentioned when comparing field goal % is lebron shoots 75% from 3ft and in from the basket but only 36% from outside 3ft
People don't want to admit this hahaha.
Oh no! Generating looks at the rim is bad !!
Not a bad video for a youngling ;) But one thing that I would add as an old-head -- I think what a lot of people misunderstand when they talk about MJ's great teammates -- none of them (aside maybe from Rodman?) had ANY reputation for being great before they joined the Bulls with MJ as team captain and leader of the squad. Not Pippen at all, not Paxson, not Kerr, not Grant. The only 2 players that had real careers before him were Rodman and Parrish (and Parrish was done LOL). But Rodman was off the rails and on his way out and MJ's request for him saved and essentially gave new his career a 2nd life. And no doubt Phil was an amazing coach and helped with Rodman in that 2nd 3-peat, but even Phil wasn't "that guy" when he stepped in as head coach. He was a nobody. He was the equivalent of what Adrian Griffen is right now on the Bucks -- a team full of talent and potential but will he rise to the occasion or fail? That's who Phil was when he started coaching MJ. Nobody. And through time together they all became the best.
It's really a mistake though to pretend as though any of those teammates were "all star" caliber at all when they were drafted or added if you're going to make comparisons -- none of them were. That's a historical mistake. They became and were elevated to that over time. And none of that is to take away ANYTHING from what any of them accomplished -- they still deserve it. But people forget that aside from a very few people -- they're not dropped in as great day 1. That's built over time, and sometimes, often with the help and honing of someone else. MJ came into the league on fire with really no one to guide him, and as he aged he became the leader of his team and he set the tone and pace and structure for those he took under his wing (for better or worse).
A lot of the amazing defenders (with few exceptions) -- became great having to defend MJ in practice. A lot of those who dedicated to win, did it because they didn't want to lose their spots. The Bulls players worked harder to stay on their roster than most, and their best players worked extra. Not because they got paid more for doing it, and not by some harsh coach, but because their team leader that set the pace set it that way -- and so while LeBron gets credit for having assists as a point forward - that's fine, I think he's got great court vision. I think that MJ's contributions to forcing his teammates to buy in and hone their skills and play their roles and stop messing up -- his insistence that HE had to be able to trust them if they were going to be getting minutes, that's stuff we didn't see on the court, but even the teammates that didn't like him admitted he made them better players. More dedicated. More fierce. And it made them win.
For those who weren't around when it all happened miss that context that everything was electric and just like in quantum mechanics -- well once we observed all the greatness, it was observed and now it all seems like it was always there. But before it all happened, the future was unwritten for all of us. We always knew he was great, but no one called him the GOAT in 1990 or 1991. Even when Larry retired in 1992 and had his ceremony in 1993, Magic still called Larry the greatest. MJ still wasn't the GOAT yet to a bunch of people who were still waiting to see what he would do. We knew he was a great player, but we didn't know if he'd be a great winner who elevated his team. People think that because he scored a lot that meant he didn't play team ball-- and the man did score a lot! But his stat lines were a whole lot more than just scoring. He still had some crazy high defense numbers, some of the highest blocks and steals for a guard, and lots of assists and rebounds also for a SG. (And no one even factors in the fact that they count assists way differently now -- so much easier to get assists than it used to be; heck so much easier to score now than it used to be). We didn't know if MJ would be too sick for the flu game. We didn't know if he'd hit winning shots. We didn't know if Paxson or Kerr would hit their 3s. We didn't know how Scottie and Horace and Dennis (well with Dennis we didn't even know if he'd show up or get ejected for important games!). It all seems like it was just all there in place now -- but it was chaotic AF back then, and it's important to remember that the same way we don't know for sure the day LeBron will announce his retirement or how great any new coach will be now, we had no idea back then either. And that's the difference between looking back at history and living through it. You can never know or fully understand what it was like when everything was unknown because now it's all been written.
The kids really don't know what they're talking about. Great comment.
@@ryanb2607 I'm not baggin' on any kids. I thought it was still a really good video considering. I'm just gettin' old now and I realize I wasn't old enough to APPRECIATE older players at the time, but I do now, because now I understand the context of what that was like to live through something that now people miss. I got to see how exciting the Lakers and Celtic rivalry was. I wasn't old enough to see most of the 70s.
But now that I'm older I appreciate other players like Dr. J, Kareem's more impactful peak, Bill and Wilt, understanding that I have no idea what it was like to watch them in their primes -- or really anyone I didn't watch in their primes.
@@Tcheera So... basically the kids don't know what they're talking about 😆 I'm not bagging on them either, it's just an objective fact. They've only watched one era of basketball, have no context, and really have a lot of laughable opinions that one could only hold if they don't really understand the game; objectively. No hate.
@@ryanb2607 I mean plenty of people my age and older don't know what they're talking about either. Most of the commentator / personalities -- it's funny, I loves me some MJ as a fan, but whether they are lovers or haters most of them grate on me because they just sound like morons even if they are old enough. Shannon Sharpe sounds like a dumbass, Skip Bayless sounds like a dumbass, Kendrick Perkins sounds like a dumbass, Nick Wright sounds like a dumbass, JJ Reddick sounds like a dumbass. I mean I laugh at Charles and Shaq -- but I think my favorite part is listening to Shaq for years talk about how filling up your tank at a quarter of a tank saves you money per gallon on gas somehow. Even Stephen A for all his popularity says some dumb shit.
So I mean... that's especially why I don't want to bag on youngin's... plenty of cringeworthy not so youngin's. And I'm not saying everyone always has a bad take, but all these guys, they just all sometimes say shit that I'm like wtf are you talking about -- you're too old to be THAT willfully ignorant. But anyway -- until I see someone my age makin' better videos, it's easier to rip people apart in the comments, so I put in my 2 or 25 cents or whatever, but yeah they don't know what they can't know -- but what's the excuse of all the old men on these shows that have no excuse for being so dumb?
Great point. Time will truly test a player's legacy, but time will also gloss over a lot of these subtle details that thugs at our heartstrings as we watch the greats play the game.
Jordan is the GOAT. Hands down. You all are trying to defend a player that loses time after time. It’s all marketing and MSM. If Lebron made his teammates better they’d win but there’s ALWAYS an excuse.
I’m not opposed to another player surpassing Jordan but it has to be warranted. Not just because it gets talked about endlessly.
Lebron is epitome of repeat the same lies over and over and it’ll be truth to sheep.
Jokic > both
@@antiarezzo7630 I like Jokic
Finals loses should never be a negative on someone’s resume. Rings are a team effort and Lebron was the the best player for every finals appearance. Yes you can criticize his 2011 finals performance but look at how he bounced back and made it to 7 more finals. Hes the first player to lead in all major stat categories for both teams.
@@OrangeCrush_Brandon I don’t need your permission on how to view things. Winning is everything, the only thing. One player led his team and won. The other led his team and lost. I don’t excuse or defend losers. If you feel inclined to do so, have fun. You can say he was the “best ever” he STILL lost. You can say he scored the most points, he STILL lost.
@@OrangeCrush_Brandon You can rationalize all you want, at the end of the day the score is what it is. But just keep in mind everyone you defend a loser, that makes YOU a loser. You condone, and lower the standard because it can’t be achieved. Pathetic.
LeBron's last title came from the bubble and Lakers was no position to win if the regular season schedule played out as both LeBron and AD were injured. This debate is made by the media but we all know that this is not even close. If longevity is such an important factor, how come no one credited Karl Malone when he became 2nd alltime scorer. No one is dared to put Malone even in top 15 discussion cos he is simply not a top 15 player. Even Kareem never got any love when it comes to GOAT conversation, yet all of sudden longevity matters with LeBron...
if Malone had a ring they would talk more about him. its the same as they do t mac. great player but no ring
exactly! how can longevity be a highlight now when they have load management? not playing is a disrespect to the fans who wants to see their idol play. I believe MJ knew that and that is why he is consistently playing almost every game of his career... compared to LBJ? even when older version MJ returned from retirement on a very mediocre team he still played for the fans, and almost never misses any game, giving his all and active at both ends of the floor! MJ is a true legend and my GOAT.
@aswangdark yup..Kobe said same thing!
Lebron is the only player with 30k pts, 10k ast & 10k Rebs, only delusional Jordan fanboys think it's a gap like the dude said you Jordan stans want people to believe Jordan was far beyond everyone else when that is not true lol.
@@aswangdark lebron is the only player with 30k pts, 10k ast & 10k Rebs lol that's why it's highlighted lol, that's a triple double averaged, I don't know why Jordan stans act like if complain about longevity lol, I mean do really see Jordan finishing his career if he played longer with a triple double averaged????
I love how a teenager that grew up in Lebron's era (and not the whole thing) and try to put all of his effort in defend Lebron's case (like omiting context for the longevity thing) have to put Jordan on top. That's true greatness. You have no option.
You don't mention Lebron put those teams together.
All that computer shit don't beat the eye test
Been playing and watching basketball all my life as a68yo.
About Lebron's decisions, he wasn't forced to make that superteam in Miami. He could have left the back to back 60win cavs if he wanted a better chance, but he didn't have to join the other best player of the conference with a perennial all star in Bosh. So after him doing that you can't call him unfortunate for running into the KD warriors twice, because he is the one who started it. And don't forget, Jordan never failed to win when he was the favourite or had a 50/50 chance. Lebron lost as the favourite several times in his career.
several?? outside of 2011 and 2009(where he avg 38 to lose) where was he favoured and lost?
@@chillspot331 Add the 2014 finals and you have it, especially considering how badly he lost in 2014.
@@chillspot331 He was favored in 2010 against the Celtics. But blew a 2-1 lead, losing 3 straight.
This is hilarious revisionist history. The big 3 Celtics literally formed in 08 so how the hell is he the one to “start it”. When he left Cleveland they won 19 games. Bron is literally the reason WHY they won 60 games.
@@Nightflcn4 So we are gonna ignore that the cavs also changed the head coach and their best player was injured pretty much the entire year? And celtics big 3 were all at least 30 years old and not in their prime unlike what Bron did with Miami. And if Bron by himself was so good to make a 19 win team into a 60 win team, how come he still lost finals with Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love?? You don't know what you are talking about
The longevity argument is overstated. How many 82 game seasons Lebron played? And the league became soft over the years and the concept of load management help Lebron's longevity argument.
I would include: Flopping, traveling, turnover and maybe im reaching but i would not ignore the almost obvious use of modern performance-enhancing drugs
They will never talk about Brons wife and trainer getting peds
how bout Gambling, Drinking ALcohol and Womanizing who do you think has the edge???
@@jepoybengcothat doesn’t disrupt the game those are personal choices.
@@thefirsttrillionaire2925 well he was personally attacking Lebron right might as well take it to another level
Imagine hating on someone that doesn't even know you exist 😂
This will be a conversation for years to come, but it's not really a debate. When you look at all of their accomplishments, accolades and failures, MJ rises to the top. Lebron is a lot of people's favorite player. They want so desperately for him to be where MJ is. That's why this mess goes on and on.
I don't know a single person who watched MJ play in the 90s say Lebron is their fav
MJ played less and achieved more. But the eye test its where its at, MJs competitiveness is something you cant measure. Debate over
Eye test alone can’t determine Greatest of all Time, it can only determine your Favorite of all Time. If Eye Test really mattered the most then Duncan and Kareem wouldn’t even be top 20 all time which is clearly absurd.
@@jordandwiggins1026 haha eye test is the icing on the cake. Watching MJ is like watching poetry in motion. Watching lebron is like watching a cat in water.
James played longer cause he got more breaks and he ran to play with other super stars to take load off him
Don't forget about heavy PED / steroid use.
How is LBJ got more breaks when he appears for 10straight finals and has the most playoff stats and minutes.
and he also didnt quit to play baseball twice
@@rfpchar still can’t win the rings like Jordan who won 3in row. Left came back won 3 more what are we talking about he was better on defense better on offense won more rings played less time.
And rarely EVER played a full season.
I would argue Jordan is also a floor raiser in addition to a ceiling raiser as the Bulls were a lottery team before he got drafted and before the knee injury, the Wizards were playoff bound. They missed it after he got hurt.
If LBJ and MJ are playing on the same night, in the same town, and on two different buildings that are next together, I would pay to see MJ. There were more excitement in most of MJ’s games than anybody else. MJ can dribble any direction; MJ can fly and hang in the air longer than anybody else; MJ can dunk any direction in the air; MJ can should from anywhere………. LBJ can’t shoot free throw……..
Lebron would also be resting that night.. 😅
This is crazy hating
@@dandales2456 of course he's gotta rest. How else can he keep up the "longevity" stat if he didn't rest?
I would rather watch kyrie over both of them.
You see MJ dunking all over the place and you only see lebron shooting free throw? Sorry, but this is more of a “I like him” thing
Awesome video! Truly, some very impressive work.
I would disagree, however, on some of the narrative used to describe LeBron. I wouldn't say he could simply join a new team and alone make them a championship contender. Both Miami and Cleveland (the 2nd time) had some other pretty major factors that made them contenders when he joined.
Also, you didn't include LBJ's failures, like totally disappearing against the Mavs or losing to a Spurs team whose stars had all hit mid-30's plus.
Jordan never choked like that. Once he got to the big stage he never looked back. A totally linear progression. LeBron went backwards, then forwards, then backwards again. It's no hate towards LeBron, but when you look at what's happened on the finals stage then, imo, it's not even close. A 4-6 record, 22-33, underperforming on multiple occasions. Any real GOAT debate ended with that Dallas series.
The coach conversation is silly to me.
MJ made Phil the winning coach he became.
In addition, MJ pushed his teammates to be winners. They said it from their own mouths.
Thats why phil repeated a 3 peat with lakers
@@IsmeyoboyJC Phil is a good coach.
But that situation had some luck tied to it. Come on, he ends up with arguably the most dominant NBA player in history in Shaq, and then also have an MJ type player in Kobe, on the SAME team.
Had they stayed together, they could've had more chips.
@@AndrewTaylorJr Phil's specialty is turning good teams into great teams.
The Bulls were conference finals contenders the year before Phil became the head coach.
The Lakers were conference finals contenders and a top 3 team in the West before Phil took over as head coach.
He doesn't build teams from the ground up. He sees a high performing team and elevates them to the next level.
@@x-man9473 I hear ya, and I agree.
It's a "team" effort, I'm grouping the coach with the players in that statement "team".
All credit can't be given to just the players just as all credit can't be given just to the coach. That's my only point. When it comes to MJ in particular, some people like to say that it was only because of Phil the Bulls won so much. Like only Phil alone. That's cap.
Just the same as it would be silly saying the only reason alone is MJ. Now, on the matter of the players, MJ holds more of the percentage on why they won so much than any of the other players, that's why he was FMVP all 6 times, but when measured towards coach Phil, I'd say they both have equal value with an edge slightly towards MJ because he's the one actually out there on the floor. Phil can draw plays all day, but if you don't have adequate, confident, and strong players to execute them, it's a waste of ink. MJ was dependable for closing games, probably more than any superstar ever.
That's my only point. Phil wasn't a hall of fame or even a winning coach when he arrived to the Bulls. Together(players and him) they became legendary. Phil without MJ, maybe a couple of titles in the 90's.
Phil, without Kobe, maybe a couple with Shaq, that's it. Phil without Shaq, maybe a couple with Kobe. Phil without Kobe and Shaq, man who knows....
The players have to be able to do the work the coach formulates. MJ, Kobe, Shaq, they did said work very well. That's why they won and became the legends they are. Not by Phil alone.
That was the premise of my post. I hope that makes sense, because again, I do agree with you about Phil.
It just ain't all about him though. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, I'm just giving context to why I posted what I did, it applies to others who aim to discredit MJs and his teams accomplishments by overshadowing them with Phil.
@@AndrewTaylorJr We're on the same page. I'm a Chicagoan and I hate the Chicago Bulls. Because, all things considered, Jordan had the least amount of help/talent compared to most legendary winners. Yet, the Bulls organization is the least grateful of his efforts.
>MJ had one consistent all-star in Pippen. He had 0 MVP or finals MVP teammates. Curry had KD and Sixers picked up Moses Malone. Russell had Bob Cousy before he joined the team.
>MJ was the only franchise star on the team. Modern franchise stars team up to give themselves an easier path to a title.
>Other dominant teams were elite offensively and defensively The Bulls were only elite defensively. MJ was carrying them on the offensive end.
>The Bulls also had durability issues. Outside of 1991, every other championship year had his teammates missing a giant stretch of games during the season and getting limit restrictions during playoff runs.
>Despite all of this, Jordan praises his teammates in media whenever he gets the change. Yet, the organization isn't grateful. Every other week, Pippen or some other teammate has to come out and say "MJ could have done blank better". And let's not forget Krause, who literally broke the team up because he felt "he wasn't getting enough credit".
The Bulls existed since the 1960s. They haven't won a championship (or even made a finals) before or after MJ. That's no coincidence. MJ's success mislead people into thinking that the Bulls were a competent organization.
Made me genuinely sad that you copared their FG%/TS% without pointing out that LeBron takes most of his "shots" from 1-3 feet, whereas Jordan was a midrange assassin vs. real defenders. ...and talked about all-time awards/stats outside of the context of longevity, which is the only place they belong.
yep.- as danger productions stated. thats like saying deandre jordan is a better shooter than steph
Exactly. LeDiva is a horrible jump shooter. MJ was pure, smooth, effortless with his jumpshot. MJ did what it took to win. Nothin else. He didn’t care about anything else. LeBron scans the cameras and crowds to make sure he’s being watched. The guy is a walking/Talking cringe fest.
@Jerome-n6ubro lebron is 6’8 and play in an era that is way less physical and that less défense
how about the negatives? flops? turnovers? quiting? laziness? body language during the game? load management abuse? stat padding? comparisons of winning and losing percentages with/without them on the team? so yeah, there are so many factors and that is why the eye test is the best of all test. hahaha!
Yeah Jordan was all those things as well. 🤡🤡🤡
@@Ghost-rb6cwfacts 😂goofy
Negative thoughts and body language is part of the game fool
@@okeythegoat2332 doing that to your own teammates... that's the fool there.
@@Ghost-rb6cw MJ was never accused of flopping, or any of those other things. Next time you say something so idiotic, back it up with some facts. Unbelievable!!
I’ll never deny LeBron as an all-time NBA great. But, I simply just can’t buy into any further longevity being used as a merit that warrants taking The GOAT title from MJ. We are now in year 21 of LeBron, yet he’s still playing catch up to everything Jordan has accomplished in far lesser time of 15 total seasons. How much longer are we really supposed to wait for LeBron to “eclipse” Jordan? Because based on difference in years played, he’s had more than enough chances to do that already. He still hasn’t done it. Therefore, the ship has long sailed.
I’d rather compare the resumes where they both stood at year 13, the year of Jordan’s 6th championship. I’d rather compare where they both stand at year 15, Jordan’s final mark on the all-time scoring list and where LeBron was still behind at that point of his career. Those resumes are nowhere close when you break it down to those parameters. But, for some reason, we decide to overlook things like this.
All of a sudden, longevity is the deciding factor? If that were the case, we should’ve been calling Kareem The GOAT. But, we weren’t doing that, were we? So, why does it change in LeBron’s case? What’s different? That just shows an inconsistency in the criteria we’ve been using all of this time. Almost as if we’re letting him slide with more of the special treatment he’s received his whole entire career. So, let’s make sure we’re still calling a spade, a spade.
Based on everything broken down in this video, Jordan has cemented himself an untouchable legacy. Won’t matter if LeBron goes on to play an entire quarter century. “Congrats Bron, only took you 10 more seasons to do it.” Yeah right. That’s simply more that can be said against him. Can’t be The GOAT when you’re still living in someone’s shadow and chasing their ghost. No one has had a greater impact on this game than Michael Jordan and LeBron simply will never be the icon that Jordan still is
Good job overall. Stay objective and keep doing what you enjoy. A few comments of note.
17:25 This graphic is incorrect. MJ was in WAS during his 14th season.
17:48 What was Phil before MJ? Neither Phil nor the triangle were anything from a system perspective. If LBJ wanted to be coached, he had plenty of options to get and grow with one. LBJ got coaches fired and tried to get Spo fired. Look how that would have turned out. Blatt was hired because his success in Europe, and they had the best record in the league when LBJ got him fired.
23:23 Truer words may have never been said. 🤣
I agree with your overall conclusion. There are a few contextual aspects left out but nothing crazy. One thing to consider is MJ played 15 seasons (only 13 with the Bulls, 2 of which were truncated by injury or retirement), retired 3 times, had long gaps between returns and still was successful. LBJ is still trying to catch up to what MJ did in 11 full seasons.
Of note as well, MJ never lost when favored in a series. If he had homecourt advantage, he won. LBJ can't say that. IDK what other GOAT candidates can.
Again, great job. Keep doing what you enjoy.
Where was lebron suppose to go if he wanted to play with a great coach when he wanted to play with d wade and kyrie Irving??? 🤡
And Jordan didn't had fate in some of the players that Jerry crause was bringing in and wanted players traded after 1991. 🤡🤡🤡
@@Ghost-rb6cw Write something coherent and respectable if you want a thoughtful response, troll. LBJ had a list of coaches on screen. At some point, if you have 9 NBA caliber coaches and you like none of them, you might want to look inwards. MJ didn't want Phil, but he respected Phil enough to allow his growth as well. Things take time. MJ knew he would win with anyone. LBJ knew he needed the world. Have a great day, troll.
@@cameronno6039 lmao 🤣🤣 you're statement was a bit disingenuous sir, you didn't understand why lebron didn't have the luxury to play with a great coach? IT'S BECAUSE HE WANTED TO PLAY WITH WADE AND BOSH...there was legitimate destination for lebron and 2 other top players could have gone to that had a great coach, and the reason I call you a 🤡 it's because you do like what most Jordan fanboys do and that's spread narratives and false propaganda like a 🤡 only for daddy Jordan. 😂😂😂
If anything, MJ played 12 seasons, as in the other three seasons, he missed almost two whole seasons with injuries and one season he came back from first retirement.
Keep in mind today's all stars can team up and not even win gold medals. Bron and many other stars of today's game don't make teammates better. Just athletes that play basketball. Bron gets his coaches fired cause he blames everyone else for losing. Same reason for the 100 plus trades in his career. You can't count pip the same player for all time great player teammates when you clearly named more for Bron.
And jordan didn't make anyone else better besides Scottie pippen.
@@Ghost-rb6cw what lmao yes he did
@@joesanthosh5315 who? Who else became an all stars under Jordan???
Jordan never had a series like 2011 when LeBron dwindled and seemingly got out played by the opponents bench player.
One retired twice but still won 6 championshios. One is already playing 18-19 years but won less championship.
bro literally explained perfectly why in this video🤦♂️ 2️⃣3️⃣🥩🚴♂️
Good video. That last part saying bron was unfortunate. Why cause he lost six times in the finals to better players and teams. Was it unfortunate Magic lost. Was it unfortunate Kobe went 5 and 2. Fans bring out the small violins for bronze medal bron. Bron is the biggest joke in sports history from my eye test.
Thank you 💯💯💯😂 they just hate the fact that man is not a goat
MJ never chased stats. Unlike the other guy.
please ellaborate
Please MJ was chasing stats
MJ would literally check with the stat keeper during the game to make sure he got 30 pts to keep his 30 pt stat line perfect
Do you even watch Lebron play?
@@OrangeCrush_Brandon Yes lol. who hasnt
This great video showed the incredible careers both athletes had. Add in basketball legacy of Olympics and College then it would sway to one side.
So Basically in conclusion best MJ is better than best Lebron. That's one of the reasons why MJ is the GOAT. I'd honestly put best Kobe over Lebron. Just being honest.
the same kobe who couldn’t nearly produce the same numbers in the finals like lbj did even when lbj lost?the same kobe who was robin for more than half his chips? the same bro who lost more matches against lbj in the nba?
"MJ was ahead of his time skill wise".....
A statement that surely can't be denied.
Great video.
Respect to both of these great players!
MJ is STILL ahead of today's players where skill is concerned. I've watched way too many MJ reaction videos where the reactor compares something MJ did to more recent players, which is wrong because THEY got all that from HIM. MJ could have taken EVERY current player to school on the court, there's no question about it. He was elite on both offense and defense, and never took a play off from hustling. None of the players today put in the work on either side of the ball that he did during his career.
@@BlastGT1 Couldn't have said it better.
The only reason LeBron averages more rebounds than Jordan is because he's feasting on defensive rebounds, which doesn't have anything to do with offense. Jordan actually averaged far more offensive rebounds than LeBron
So what? Most rebounds are defensive anyway. What's your point?
@@denzela5539 Have you watched the video? He said that LeBron's a more well-rounded player on offense because he got his teammates more involved and "participated on the boards more than MJ did", while Jordan only scored more. Which is just factually wrong
@@Ronin1337_It’s right? Heck, if Lebron attempted as many shots Jordan took in his career, he would’ve averaged more than jordan in points.
@@_M1-9 I was talking about rebounds, what does that have to do with points exactly? But to your point: Context matters. LeBron scored the vast majority of his points driving to the hoop in the softest era of the NBA, while Jordan played in a time were you got actually physically punished going to the rim. If you think LeBron could've done this in those times, you probably also believe in the easter bunny
I don't remember Michael Jordan getting outscored in Playoffs and Finals games. Lebron disappears in some of these important games, that matchup against Jason Terry in Finals 2011 was such a low light for him that commentators gets to question if he can even guard Terry, I don't think that can happen to Jordan, he is too much of a fierce competitor. And that makes Jordan the greatest ever for me.
Fg % is by far Mike. He was a much better shooter than LeBron, almost automatic at mid range. LeBron is honestly as much as a liability, shooting (even more in the clutch) as he’s much as he is on defense.
Great video. This debate is fun to have and leaves people discontent on both sides. For me, the eye test speaks volumes! MJ made you want to play basketball. Nike wasn’t big because of its brand, it was because it represented MJ and the world wanted a piece of that. They still do. Lastly, I don’t know why this doesn’t get discussed. MJ’s team was great, because MJ was the leader of that team. He was aggressive and maniacal towards winning. His teammates couldn’t make mistakes. If they did, they certainly would hear it from him. He accepted no less than 100%. If you have the right guys around you to accept this challenge, your team will win with a leader like MJ. MJ was always a winner until he retired the second time because his body took on too much. College, Olympics, and NBA. So that’s my take.
Personally, Bron makes me wanna play ball. His playmaking tendencies bring me to the intellectual side of the game, which is how I used to play back in the day. I also do prefer Bron's pat in the back leadership style, I was never a fan of MJ/Kobe's leadership style, and while both styles have their drawbacks, the latter often is not the healthiest. I've encountered similar individuals in my basketball teams, and even now at work, and it's not the most pleasant. To each your own, but it boils down to one's upbringing.
You forgot to mention about their mental toughness and will to win, as well as one of them was able to LEAD his team to a 3peat, TWICE!
I literally rather have Shaq in his prime instead of Lebron. But I would take MJ in his prime, over Shaq.
If Lebron's longevity production without the accolades and success is or ever was enough to overtake Jordan, then he has already done it. The thing is the gap between their career accomplishments is way too big at the moment, and likely won't change.
28:04 People have been saying that since 2018 and still nothing has changed. Lebron can olay 25 plus years and he still wont accomplish what MJ did by year 13
Exactly, Real ballers know Mj is the GOAT.
About Phil Jackson, before becoming the head coch of the Bulls, he was a NOBODY. And MJ accepted the challenge of changing his game under him, unlike Lebron, who never changed his playstyle and just fired the coaches that he didn't like.
this, some people think (or conveniently forget) he was coaching in Puerto Rico before getting an ASSISTANT job with the bulls, come on......
@@alejandroquintero1353 That's my point, he was just an assistant, so he wasn't a known, proven and a respected coach when he got the Job, but MJ didn't go out of his way to fire him and instead agreed to change his game while being the unanimous best player in the league already.
Different set of NBA rules , M.J. was the only max contract Francise player on the Bulls team. LeBron had two other legit max contract players on his teams.
It's not just old heads. A lot of younger NBA fans who are finally seeing highlights and games and MJ can't believe what they're looking at. The Warriors were not a Super Team. That team was built through the draft just like teams in the past. He wasn't forced to play GM. He chose to play GM because he has to be in control of everything. He had no reason to leave Miami other than saving face by going back to Cleveland
For the most part the creator of the video didn't use context. This debate is not even close. Jordan by himself worlds apart from everyone else. 1 of the better videos on the Internet thou. Good work young man
This is a great video. One thing I want to clarify for people though about the "Help" section where you talk about wins without star players. What people need to take into account is that this is kind of a "survivor bias" for Lebron. We talk about who they didn't have (star players) but not mentioning who they did have. Although they didn't have allstars, lebron's team was still avg stat wise compared to their conference AND they were a top defense for several years. Jordan literally had drug addicts , broke his foot one of those games, and came in when the bulls previously had their worse record in franchise history. They were also going against better competition in the conference. This is important to keep in mind. There is a reason the "Lestern Conference" is a meme. He had no competiton and actually had the best team until Drose and them came about but that was obviously short-lived.
and as for legacy, Lebron DID catch a break. He went to Miami. I understand where you're coming from with the backlash for starting "super teams" and getting shit for leaving Cavs but he ran to the 3rd best shooting guard of all time who was the 2nd best player in the conference and 3rd overall behind Kobe and Lebron. Wade was fmvp. I think this running to a team wouldn't be as bad if he won 2011 but didn't. I think that personally hurt the goat debate for lebron because even with context, there isn't any good argument on how you lose to Dirk while being 28 and in your prime winning back to back MVPs previous years, having Wade who avg 27 and bosh who avg 24 that series and still lose. That is a big hit. To me, 2016 at best only balances that out. There are no black streaks against Jordan's legacy. Dude performed every single series. Name one series he did horrible in. Name one series where he wasn't the top player. Sure, he lost in the first round before pippen but everyone who actually watches Ball and not highlights know the things you talk about in this video. He went against 60 win teams and had bum addicts as teammates. He went against a 67 5 HOF stacked celtics at the same time Bird won 3 mvps in a row. No one was beating that team. Not to mention Pip was playing 79 games and didn't start any of them before playing with MJ. So it's not like Pip was a god prior to MJ.
This gotta be the greatest goat debate video i've seen. Respect to you bro, hell of a work 🔥🙏🏽
thank god finally somebody who isnt toxic and just enjoyed the video as much as i did. ducking legend👑
I really appreciate your hardwork and time to collect all this data so that we can watch an amazing comparision video, props to you👍🏼👍🏼, btw...yeah MJ is the Goat🔥
I tuned out when I heard “Lebron is a more well rounded player on offense” & “Lebron’s size helps him shoot more efficiently” both blasphemous
LBJ is the GOAT…….
Of turnovers.
w
Good one😂
The Akron Hammer is the goat fym?
LBJ is definitely not the GOAT.
Bro LeBron had to manufacture his own teams and jump ship three times. His rings should come with an*!
Mj’s team manufactured itself, top 2 team of all time
@Jerome-n6ucavs have won rings before bulls
@Jerome-n6ueven after the video you still think lebron is better than mj?
You lost me at "data driven" there's so much Le Stat Padding that Lebron does its useless data. That's why when he loses he says "check my stats" instead of taking responsibility and vowing to do better and improve for next time.
its the amount if championships and how they did it only matters, how lebron losing those championships and how mj did 2x 3peat and ofcourse the season mvp. also mj doesnt have a weakness, lebron his freethrows
phil jackson is only known as the greatest coach of all time because of MJ 😂 why does everyone fail to understand that.
Right!!!! 🤦🏽♂️💯
he was still good without MJ. He won 5 rings without him.
@@ElliotScottDating Of course he won 5 more. He had a player in Kobe that played just like Jordan and had the same killer instinct and mental toughness as Jordan and let’s not even talk about Shaq
@@ElliotScottDating did he win 5 before Jordan or after?
@@puncho8799 if anything he’s the luckiest coach with all the talent he was gifted
Michael Air Jordan 23#👑 Greatest ever UNSTOPPABLE Legends Man fly like an Eagles jump48 GOAT NU1 scoring titles10 flu🤒 game 🐐🐐🏀🏀🔥🔥🔥🔥 6-0 72-10 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
MJ: legacy
LJ: Stats
Stats don't matter when making the case for the goat because if it did people would've called Kareem the goat
@@DionWarren-o2vthey literally did ?
Well, if LeBron had done in Miami what Jordan did with the Bulls, then Eric might be known as the greatest coach of all time by now.
Longevity will never be enough for Lebron to crack the top 5 of all time.
Facts. I have MJ, Kareem, Kobe, Russell and Magic all over him.
@@jkemp6791WHAT?!?!
@@jkemp6791
@@jkemp6791you gotta put lebron 2nd or 3rd
Put it this way, lebron would NEVER beat jordan in a finals. And that’s that. Seriously.
MJ press conference after a 3-peat - I can't call myself the greatest. Because it's disrespectful to the guy's. That came before me because I never got to play against them.. Bron after getting swept - I'm still better than 95% percent of the league.. Definitely on different levels as far as humility
You don’t take context in account for shooting%. LBJ shoots 37% outside of 3 feet. And in clutch time, he shot 20 out of 112 according to basketball reference. LBJ is a poor shooter.
And for stats, you should have use per 100 possessions to compare. Because there is more possessions nowadays with the change of rules, it’s easier to have more stats across the board post 2004 than before.
Eddie I could have told you Jordan is the goat, you didn't need to take the time and effort to make such a detailed video lol... kiddin
If the question was who was more dominant at their peek in their era the answer is fairly obvious, but I think what most Lebron fans actually think is that if Michael joined the league today he wouldn’t be that great… I can say for what it’s worth I felt the same way till I watched enough film to change my perspective
Jordan actually wins in points and steals by a lot, and also dominates LeBron in offensive rebounds. And Jordan wins in blocks. They aren't tied. LeBron has defensive rebounds and assists. That's all.
Best scoring seasons total points
#1 Jordan 87' 3,041(lead league)
#2 Jordan 88' 2,868(lead league)
#3 Jordan 90' 2,753(lead league)
#4 Jordan 89' 2,633(lead league)
#5 Jordan 91' 2,580(lead league)
#6 Jordan 93' 2,541(lead league)
#7 Jordan 96' 2,491(lead league)
#8 LeBron 06' 2,478
#9 Jordan 97' 2,431(lead league)
#10 Jordan 92' 2,404(lead league)
#11 Jordan 98' 2,357(lead league)
#12 Jordan 85'(rookie season) 2,313(lead league)
#13 LeBron 09' 2,304
#14 LeBron 10' 2,258
#15 LeBron 18' 2,251(lead league)
Best steal seasons
#1 Jordan 88' 259(lead league)
#2 Jordan 87' 236
#3 Jordan 89' 234
#4 Jordan 90' 227(lead league)
#5 Jordan 91' 223
#6 Jordan 93' 221(lead league)
#7 Jordan 85' 196
#8 Jordan 92' 182
#9 Jordan 96' 180
#10 LeBron 05' 177
#11 Jordan 98' 141
#12 Jordan 97' 140
#13 LeBron 08' 138
#14 LeBron 09' 137
#15 LeBron 04' 130
Jordan holds the NBA record for most 200 steal seasons and most 180 steal seasons. LeBron's career high is 177.
Best blocking seasons
#1 Jordan 88' 131(14th in league)
#2 Jordan 87' 125(16th in league)
#3 LeBron 09' 93
#4 Jordan 91' 83
#5 LeBron 08' 81
#6 LeBron 10' 77
#7 Jordan 92' 75
#8 LeBron 18' 71
#9 Jordan 85' 69
#10 LeBron 13' 67
#11 LeBron 06' 66
#12 Jordan 89' 65
#13 Jordan 93' 61
#14 LeBron 22' 59
#15 LeBron 04' 58
Best offensive rebounding seasons
#1 Jordan 85' 167
#2 Jordan 87' 166
#3 Jordan 89' 149
#4 Jordan 96' 148
#5 Jordan 90' 143
#6 Jordan 88' 139
#7 Jordan 93' 135
#8 LeBron 08' 133
#9 Jordan 98' 130
#10 Jordan 91' 118
#11 Jordan 97' 113
#12 LeBron 05' 111
#13 LeBron 16' 111
#14 LeBron 09' 106
#15 LeBron 04' 99
17:55 one thing that you need to go back and correct that is Phil Jackson not a great head coach when he was still learning how to coach. He was a great coach with six championships when he was coaching Kobe and Shaq.
Also bron never went to a dud team after his 1st cleaveland stent!! He ALWAYS stacked the deck!
Why did he stack the deck? Because he wasn't facing weak comp like mj.
@Ghost-rb6cw he stacked the deck.for kobe lol..they just showed you mj comp wasn't weak...
@@proplayer341 lol no he stack the deck for the Celtics lol, Kobe was not in the same conference as lebron lol 😂😂 another false driving narrative.
Did you even watch this video? He literally proves MJ had harder competiton overall haha@@Ghost-rb6cw
@@Ghost-rb6cw Did we look at the same video? Really? If you can't look at facts objectively, then you shouldn't comment.
Bro he lost 6 times in the finals that should in the debate right there
Six is crazy 💀
context🤦♂️ 2011 it was all his fault. 2014 the spurs WHOLE TEAM put up 2016 curry like numbers while chris bosh always struggled when the light shine the brightest and d wade knee was on life suport. 2015 love and kyrie where hurt LITERALLY the second and 3 best player. 17 and 18 he had a weak af team vs the greatest team ever assembled and still outperformed everybody. u my man is a casual
@@canjoestar1449the only acceptable excuse is kd steph era
@@canjoestar1449and 2015
My opinion will always be MJ, but I can understand why someone who didn’t see MJ night in, night out but has watched LeBron would side with Bron. He’s an incredible baller and deserves respect.
But these are different players, different eras, also I’m surprised you didn’t bring up that they play different positions because that does matter.
Personally I think that in this less physically punishing game today that Jordan would’ve put up crazier numbers, where as LeBron playing back in the rougher game of the 80’s and 90’s would’ve hurt his numbers overall and he might not have enjoyed the longevity he’s become known for.
Dude, Lebron would score 50 a game in that era. The talent now is way better
Don't forget Jerry Krause split the Bulls up prematurely, meaning Jordan could've kept the party going...
Great content here, love the nuanced look at this contentious goat debate. Very impressive considering you’re only 19, from a 37 year old hoops fan well done!
Not a bad video, however. Lebron never had to deal with a team like the 80s Celtics in the eastern conference so MJ losing with that bulls team early in his career is completely overblown. Stats are ultimately the biggest deciding factor for a lot of people. But I think another great way of viewing the convo, is that jordan was the spark that jumpstarted a dying franchise in Chicago to 6 championships and left an impression on fans and everyone around the world in awe, so much so.. he was the most marketable icon in sports history. People couldn’t believe what they were watching, even non basketball fans. He was so far ahead of his time that even today nobody can amount to it. I think the eye test is the most intriguing point because it give you the most accurate detail to each guy. Jordan was lean, incredibly strong for his size, cat quick, so skilled on the fly and improvising, could jump in a phone booth, massive hands. I’m 31 years old and played and watched basketball my whole life and never seen anything like Michael jordan. A once in a lifetime person.
Literally lebron has only longevity. Which he is literally sacrificing his team winning to pad his stats
bro didn’t watch the video
Interesting video, but despite your noble attempt to show yourself as neutral, it is evident in the end your are a LBJ-Supporter. There's nothing wrong w-that it's just that many individuals who put in the hard work to look into this bogus debate between Michael Jordan ..AKA-the GOAT of basketball, and really good player Lebron James is more than just stats of advanced stats although persons like Jimmy HIghroller, Skap Attack, Uncommon cents, 2raw 4sports, BTM and so many others have studied this topic in depth and have proven w/o a shadow of a doubt MJ is superior. He ave about 79.5 games in all of his full non-injured; non-retired seasons, he played in a much more difficult era to score, he ave over 30pts per game w/o jacking up 3's or bulling his way to the basket like LBJ's don for most of the last 7-8yrs.... All he needed was 1-All Star, just one in a harder to score league and it was lights out Bulls are champions... Lebron is ball dominant, w/o the ball he stands, he has no "bag" as is the saying to day 40% of LBJ's shots are within 3ft of the bucket, and yet his field-goal percentage isn't even 1% better.
Micheal was All-Defense in all the years he was scoring chanp; led the league in steals 3x, has ave as many blocked shops as a guy 3" taller, I will leave rumors about LBJ-longevity out; although it's in credible w-all that durability he' only played 1-82 game season in 21yrs... AS for Phil Jackson, he became a Hall of Fame Coach while coaching MJ, who was there before Jackson started. finally stop disrespecting KOBE Bryant-the closest thing there has been to MJ.....THE-GOAT
Statistics do not take into account how the game is played - defense is almost non existent in NBA, allowing
LeBron to stroll and dunk. MJ era players were hand and body checked and slammed all the time.
LeBron played with:
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
Kyle Kuzma
Rajan Rondo
Dwyane Wade
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Carlos Boozer
Ben Wallace
Kevin Love
Larry Hughes
Mo Williams
Andre Drummond
Dwight Howard
Kyrie Irving
Anthony Davis
Chris Bosh
Kevin Love
Isaiah Thomas
Derrick Rose
Russ Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Ray Allen
Jordan Clarkson
Kyle Korver
Shaq
Antawn Jamison
Dennis Schröder
Rashard Lewis
Jordan is my goat- for many reasons, once again great video and keep working- I see a lot of jxmmyhighroller in you
I respect LeBron a lot more after seeing this video, but I still think Jordan is the undisputed GOAT the thing is Jordan never had anyone called the goat over him throughout his entire career like LeBron has now, when Jordan got his first 3peat he was happy because Magic or Larry had never done that so he really didn’t have anything else to chase. But LeBron has been hearing Jordan is the goat for his entire career and now with social media, he knows he has to score a certain amount of points every game, and has to play a certain amount of years to try to convince the majority of people, saying Jordan is the goat, so that’s what he’s doing now I’m sure when Jordan was playing if there were a player that the majority of people were saying is the goat he would have played longer and tried to break every single record like LeBron is doing to show the majority that he is the goat
interesting take
@@canjoestar1449 I truly believe this is what’s going on and LeBron has found an angle which is his longevity so if he can continue to impress people with that and maybe luck up on a couple more championships, that’s his plan and strategy
@@puncho8799 this mf truly has a guardian angel no cap
While I agree with what you said. You missed the fear factor category. When most of the top 75 players of all time feared you, it speaks volume. In Lebron's time nobody ever truly feared him despite his immense skills. While most young people who never played basketball in past and only witnessed LeBron and started playing ball jacking up threes. It's understandable that they think LeBron is great but to those like me who actually played ball since MJs 4th championship until now. I can tell you that Lebron's era is way too easy compare to MJs quest to his rings. Though LeBron is obviously putting up stats throughout his career, he is really not the best in his era being beaten by the likes of Embiid, Jokic, and other superstars on MVP awards, being beaten by the likes of Marcus Smart, Draymond Green and others for DPOYs. That is why the goat debate is a one sided one to MJ no matter what they tried to bring to the table to make a case for Bron. I can only laugh 😂😂😂 whenever I hear someone saying LeBron is the GOAT.
How is fear relevant to the GOAT discussion? It's about who played better, not who was feared more. Having more people fear you actually hurts your case because it means you played against a large group of mentally weak men.
@@Zion122 You call the likes of the top 75 HOF mentally weak? 😂😂😂Be my guest, believe whatever you believe but one thing is certain, they will not say all that shit they say about MJ if it is for nothing.
@@Zion122 Lebron feared Wade, that is why he joined him....
@@nathancook2852 Joining forces with someone you fear makes no sense.
@@Zion122 Fear is a big factor because it speaks how you can impact the game that doesn't show in the box scores.
I still think Jordan's most impressive year was 88-89 when he played as a point guard. 10 triple doubles in 11 games is nuts, and his averages were even more nuts in that short span. It makes me wonder how his stats would be if he continued as a point guard for the rest of his career.
Being voted to the All Star game is not a real award, its a bs popularity contest.