The ref also wanted to fight him after the game. Btw Duncan is 7ft 250 pounds and was taking boxing lessons at the time. You can guess how it would turn out
@@0vern9K and then immidiatedly fell off the following season as he became less involved. Tim was the cornerstone of that foundation and retired just as Kahwi came into his own.
@@TK-ev 2017 the 1st year after Tim left they won 61 games and made the wcf which was farther then they got with Tim in 2016, on a team with a historic 40-2 record and 67 wins just to loose in the second round 😂. 2018 they won 47 games they were fine without tim
In the all star part we must remember that david Robinson was not the same of 89-96,he was not in his prime and took a back seat for duncan while shaq was in his prime 99-03
@@rockysalvatore435stop acting like Kobe wasn’t part of it lmao multiple times when Kobe didn’t feel like he wasn’t getting the ball enough he would make sure he would start getting more touches and sometimes puts up more shots then Shaq 🤔
If Duncan was flashy & marketable like Kobe, he would win this debate 9 times out of 10. Fact is, you're always going to have 6 Kobe supporters for every 1 Duncan supporter, simply due to the power of the L.A. market compared to San Antonio. Point is real simple, if I'm a coach or GM & i want the selflessness of Duncan. Guaranteed to have more success over a 20 year period.
Bro be quiet y’all kill me with this. So anyone who thinks kobe is better then Duncan are kobe Stan’s? Duncan isn’t regarded as better because he isn’t flashy? Stop the crying and excuses. Just cause someone isn’t flashy or marketable doesn’t mean ppl will downright not acknowledge you as the better player If your better then someone. Jokic isn’t marketable at all he’s still renounced as the best player in basketball tho. Yes Duncan isn’t flashy but to say why that’s why he isn’t ranked highly especially when compared to kobe is just crying and not true. If you care about selflessness nobody cares basketball ain’t about that and that ain’t gon win you chips all the time. You’d think the fact the spurs never won back to back or even made 3 straight finals would tell you that. Kobe was the better player. Not cause he’s dead or more popular he was better at basketball then Tim.
@@0vern9Kyou didn’t give any argument you just yapped and said that Kobe’s better at basketball when he isn’t. Carried in his first 3 chips and in 2010 would’ve lost again had it not been for kg being injured and then pau violating the paint because of it. Jokic was denied of his three peat of mvp LAST SEASON BECAUSE OF MARKETING. You see Ant a lot because he’s marketable, it’s true what the commentator said “for every 6 Kobe fans you have 1 time Duncan fan” I always heard Kobe in the goat discussion but it got ramped by 20x when Kobe sadly passed away. Duncan has 2 MVPs and 3 finals mvp’s more than Kobe and can you tell me why? Because at the end of the day Duncan won you games and made teammates better, Kobe would win you games but wants to take all the shots.
And you saying “if you care about selflessness who cares basketball ain’t about that” then why did the 2014 spurs absolutely dominate the heat? Why is their basketball often referred to as”how basketball SHOULD BE PLAYED” because it’s a team sport not a shot chucking sport in which Kobe would definitely be the king.
@@joseadanuleriogonzalez7036 Exactly my point. Duncans humbleness & culture paved the way for how dominant the Spurs were from 2011-2016, even if he was past his prime. Meanwhile, you have Kobe belittling teammates & creating an environment less than ideal. Fun fact: Kobe never got higher than the 7th seed without Shaq or Gasol.
I think part of the reason why duncan vs kobe isnt appreciated the same way larry vs magic is because they were in the same conference. A rivalry just can't get to the same level if the rivals never met on the biggest stage. I grew up a lakers fan, i love kobe but as time goes on i get more appreciation and respect for duncan. They're definitely on the same tier in my goat pyramid.
@@mavsfanforever7919but that doesn’t get talked about like magic and bird because it was one sided when it came to greatness and one sided when it came to individual skill.
Diehard Kobe fan but I completely agree with this video. It's tragic how Timmy's accomplished largely go unnoticed nowadays. His impact on the Spurs' culture of winning should never be forgotten.
@@ckthegreat100 holy casual yes tf you can💀. Steve nash won back to back MVPs he wasn’t dominating no fuckin body. And the mvp is the most valuable player award. You and causals need to stop acting like it’s the best or most dominant player in the world award or some shit
@@leomarlonestrada5954 y’all kill me with this how did he carry them? Anytime a team that isn’t loaded with stars wins a chip casuals instantly call it a carry job. 3 other players scoring in double figures, Bruce born, ginobli, Parker, speedy claxton, stephon Jackson, David to robinson And this is why you should actually watch the series Duncan’s 4th quarter were bad to meh every game. He didn’t lead SA in points in any 4th besides game 1, his fg% dipped in the 4th every game as well outside of game 1, in what world are you carrying but constantly being out scored by teammates in the 4th that makes no sense. How are you carrying when your teammates who ARE GUARDS are shooting more efficiently then you in 4th quarters? You have google you see his 4th quarter numbers that finals they aren’t pretty. Yk who’s is? Stephon Jackson, Tony’s. Stop being a casual and looking at the players and there overall stats, actually watch the games, and breakdown the important factors like the 4th quarters
It's easier to compare Duncan to Dream than Kobe due to the position and how basketball was played back then... Hakeem is often overlooked cos he only won 2 rings but his overall career is not behind guys like Duncan or Kobe....
The fact that for 11 straight years, one of these two teams made the finals is insane. I don’t think we’ll ever get a rivalry at this high of a level ever again
The ONLY guard in NBA HISTORY with 33,000 points, 6,000 assists & , 7000 rebounds. - Most points by a G - Most assists by a SG - Most rebounds by a SG - Most FT by a G - Most Allstar Games by a G (18) - Most All NBA Selections by a G (15) - Most All NBA Defense by a G (12) - Most Game Winners (40) - Most fifty win teams beaten in playoffs (24) - 5 Championships *** Kobe’s career spanned 20 years, but he MISSED NEARLY 5 YEARS WORTH OF GAMES ••• *** Played in the slowest paced and statistically the most defensive era in NBA HISTORY, with scores often ending in the 70’s and 80’s, and teams having defensive specialists throughout, as opposed to the high scoring 1980’s or the current game which offense is at a premium and defense is diminished, evidenced by scores often ending in the 120’s and 130’s. *** - Offensive Capacity : - 81 ... - 55 in a half, - 67, 62, 56, 55 in 3 Quarters .. - 40 points averaged for a whole month X 4 DIFFERENT TIMES... - 12 - 3 pointers in 1 game ... - 9 straight 40 point games ... - 4 straight 50 point games ... - Best leader, all round defensive and offensive player & clutch player 2008 Olympics - Slam Dunk Champion - Work ethic : Best in history - Entertainment Value : 100% money’s worth each and every night ... - Maniacally competative with ultra fierce tenacity on both sides of the ball ... - Demoralize other teams with constant hustle and effort on every single play ... - Skillset : Most diverse and refined skillset the NBA has ever seen, who else has been athletic enough to win a slam dunk contest, yet able to hit 12 - 3 pointers in a game, yet have post play, mid -range, and footwork comparable to and or better than any player in league history. THE ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY Who’s game was so complete, he could claim his game was WITHOUT ... - Without postplay restriction - Without midrange restriction - Without range and 3 point restriction - Without FT restriction - Without Clutch fear and restriction - Without Athleticism restrictions - Without Handles & Crossover restrictions - Without Footwork restrictions - All above resulting in no less than 3 counter moves for every offensive move ... !!! Add the 12 ALL NBA DEFENSE SELECTIONS ... ONLY KOBE 🐐🐍 #GOAT #ICON #Kobe #CHAMPION
@@andrewlumbi8792 he top #10 , but not the Goat . Look at your Top #10 , he the worst shooter …..on your own list . Check it out. Never had a dominant finals run like Joker, Janice, Dirk , or Bron ……Never. I gots Duncan at #6. Kobe at #10
Oh boy… now you’ve opened the floodgates. Try comparing their stats per 100 possessions (this roughly levels the playing field in terms of pace). Duncan has easily better stats than Kobe in that regard. In fact, Duncan has possibly the best stats of any basketball player ever, if you look at his per 100 stats. Dude was insane
We can't say that Kobe wouldn't have won more rings if he never had Shaq, given just how dedicated he was and what he did on the way to the his last 2 championships.
@@Moneyteam2324 with the state of the league yes he could. The early 2000’s east was cheeks the west finals was THE REAL FINALS. The only obstacles really were the kings and the spurs kinda. Even tho as usual in 2000, and 2002 the spurs lost in the 2nd round or prior. Because Duncan and the spurs lost a ton in the post season without going past the 2nd round. With good teams. Not smush Parker and kwame brown.
@@ckthegreat100 why do y’all come on here and just say shit. Yes kobe missed the playoffs his first year. He was an 18 year old rookie why are you talking about it like it’s some testament 💀? Your saying that like he was in his prime or some shit. And some goofys actually liked that comment lol. There’s no such thing as a mid 20’s prime 💀. Your prime is your late 20’s to mid 30’s kobe wasn’t in his prime from 2000-2004 wtf. If kobe has his own team and a coach who actually played him early in his career yes he would
13:54 - I think your point about “if Duncan wasn’t on the roster the Spurs would’ve still been good” is misleading. Case in point, almost immediately after Tim Duncan left, the Spurs started struggling. IMO, his leadership, which doesn’t show up in win shares, contributed a large number of wins to his teams. The teams he played on had decent roster construction, but they thrived because he was their leader.
@@Kalinbuggs to put it frankly duncan was not longer the focal point of their success once he reached his 30s....which of course was like 10 years of his career.
@@Kalinbuggs yeah, for one season, but if you followed the Spurs at all that year, you would know the vibes were off and a lot of players were unhappy. It was like the 2001 Lakers, where there was a lot of internal beef going on, but because they had such a good roster, they were still a very competitive team
@@sgrey9181 tru but my thing Tim averaged 13 & 9 in ‘11 yet the team still won 60+ games with an 5-9 point drop off from other years. The defense was always great but when we talk about guys like Kobe, lbj , magic , bird or mj they’re winning 60+ games with a drop off in production like that. That shows you how good the spurs as a team were as well
@@FavreianVengeance Marketers?! the media didn’t even like Kobe💀. One minute y’all say he’s a selfish ball hog who drives his teammates away, now somehow he’s some marketable media darling the league was pushing? Stop with your disgusting narratives it was seen that way because it was fact LMFAO KOBE WAS BETTER THEN TIM. this ain’t lebron, kobe wasn’t pushing ppl in the media to talk about how good he was
@@0vern9K Who told you the media didn't like Kobe? Kobe? Well, likes has little to do with it anyways. The Lakers is what butters their bread. They hyped Kobe.
Everyone always want to take away Kobe’s help to win and not give him help after the statement and want him to win. If you take away shaq give him Webber or Garnett or someone at least so he can compete. Take away one player from anyone else they losing too.
Being a Lakers fan from South TX, I was privileged enough to see these two NBA legends battle it out multiple times. In nearly every game I watched they would each somehow get a quiet 30 points. Both never failed to perform.
This was a great video and breakdown. I never really liked the comparison because of the different positions. I just had to add context to a couple things. Duncan Rookie of the year 5 rings 3fmvps 2000 asg co mvp Kobe 5 rings 2fmvps 2 scoring titles Slam dunk champion 2 gold medals. 36-0 in fiba 2nd highest scoring game in nba history (81) Numerous historic games&streaks Only player in nba history 2 repeat without another 75 great Most points ever in 3 consecutive playoffs runs (600+ points) Most asg mvp (4x) 4th all time in scoring I take nothing away from duncan.. but 1 thing i notice is he could never repeat & or defend his title.. they say repeating is the hardest thing to so... after winnin a title he would get bumped before the WCF sometimes... But lookin at kobe career how he was benched his 1st couple years, wasnt handed the green light, had to play ketchup amongst his peers. ( even tho he was better than most. Schick rookie game proved it) Everyone from coaches to media hatin him soon as he came into the league... but was part of the dynasty soon as he got the starting nod to the lakers.. then fell to the bottom. After shaq.. Then to be at the top again with goin to the finals 3 str8 years winning chips and defending it...... only player in history to repeat without a 75 great not only that and to win 2010 with a broken index finger on his shooting hand.. .that has to show kobe is not only the better player but the greater player than duncan..duncan bein part of a organization that had a system that always made playoffs and never failed.. duncan never had to face the adversity kobe did....Still take nothin away from duncans greatness. Duncan is the best power 4ward ever .. but if duncan wasnt on a team like the spurs would he have had the same success team wise ? Kobe showed wat he can do with shaq & without shaq. from winnin team accolades to even individuals accolades and accomplishments to team accomplishments again. So Putting kobes 1st 3 years into context. The finals will always show shaq being the better player, but we have to talk about the opposition . Rik smits. Mutumbo todd mucullugh thats somethin the stats wouldnt show. . Besides the 00 finals where kobe got injured & that effected his overall stats he still put up mvp like numbers 01 & 02 bein the number 2 option.. Shaq just had monsterous numbers due to the fact he had the weaker comp @ his position.. I say that to say kobes impact was more shown on the way to the finals. if people look up the stats and watch the games..during those playoffs. Kobe was havin 48 & 16 against the spurs and kings at the age of 21.. avg 33 7 7 against the spurs. Just to name a few and the types of games he was having during those playoffs. kobes impact played a bigger roll & should get more looked into more during those playoffs. Not just the finals statistics prove it. Especially at the age he was. 1999-2004 playoffs Kobe 26ppg Shaq 27ppg the nba finals dont tell the whole story for kobes case. It was the road to get there. Shaq wasnt avg that 38 and 16 on the way to the finals. Kobe took a back because shaq had the bbq according to him. Shaq also revealed recently kobe could have been the finals mvp but he sacraficed
When bringing up the first 3 seasons of MJ the following constantly gets left out: The Bulls won 11 more games in the rookie season of MJ than the previous season. MJ missed 66 games due to a foot injury in his 2nd season. During this timeframe, Charles Oakley was probably his 2nd best teammate.
@LukeFord-ns4bx dude Shaq is way more help than Duncan ever had he’s a top ten player ever ffs 🤦♂️ also Kobe lost to a team in the finals with zero top 75 players on it.
@LukeFord-ns4bx I never said he was carried. But he was the second best player on the team. You said he didn’t have help but Shaq is a top ten player of all time. I don’t think any all time great player has had a teammate as good as Shaq was when LA won those rings. And you say is Wade’s legacy affected by the two wins he won with Lebron James? no it isn’t. But I wouldn’t give him more credit for his three rings than say a guy like Larry Bird because Larry was the best player on the team.
@LukeFord-ns4bx Come on now. Shaq was a kid when he played with Penny. He was only 24 when he joined the Lakers. In 2000 Shaq was one vote away from unanimous MVP, the scoring champ, runner up for DPOY and put up 38/16 and 3 blocks on 60% shooting in the finals. Thats how much help he had. Shaq didn’t not need Kobe to win just give him any top 20 guy and they still win 🤦♂️
"The secret of basketball is that is has nothing to do with basketball" - Isiah Thomas. Duncan understood that from the jump and won 50 games every year of his career except the 99 lockout because they only played 50 games. Even won 50 games in a 66 game season in 2012.
@@kevinjohnson4498 it’s almost like management put a good team around him and to base your argument off winning team seasons is idiotic because of that point 😲
@@bigred9991 naw fr? Nobody said that. But nobody is caring a team of bums or even average players to 50 wins every year in the west use your brain. Parker, ginobli, kurt Thomas, ascending and eventual star Kawahi, end of his prime David Robinson, Bruce Bowen, Robert horry, Marco Bellini, Danny green, stephon Jackson, Brent Barry, the spurs constantly had constructed rosters around him. Without talent around Duncan the spurs aren’t winning 50 games either. Because it’s a team. Duncan consistently had great talent, kobe consistently? Did not.
@0vern9K every player you named, with the exception of David Robinson, which he only played with for 1 year, is dog shit without Duncan. Besides that, when did I say he did it by himself? Tony Parker was so good that Popovich was actively trying to trade him his first 5 years.
Kobe is and was better/greater but this take never upsets me because what I value in a player may not be what someone else values (I have immense respect for Duncan). I do have one issue with this video, context. I really don't like that you didn't talk about how the team, coach treated Kobe when he came into the league as a TEEN. Duncan was older and went to college. That matters. You had an entire section to explain Duncan's impact but didn't do something similar for Kobe and that's where I personally think you made a glaring omission in this video. Hakeem and Kobe also had some of the hardest runs to a title which I think is important to mention. Great work none the less! I'm gonna check out some more content.
Duncan was still just flat better early. Eagerness of college, team, coach or role. Duncan had his head screwed on from day 1, Kobe wouldn’t find himself until he was 30, and despite Duncan not even starting the game until he was 14, in year 1 he was All-NBA 1st team. Kobe came from basketball royalty and didn’t do that until year 6.
@@hardwoodthought1213 one I saw you mention college and how old he was when he started basketball ik you were about to say a bunch of empty ass words nothing
@@0vern9K Nothing empty about it One started playing at 14. He played on an impoverished island. The other started playing at age 7. He grew up to millionaires One was a leader and great man the moment he entered the NBA. The other wouldn’t be revered as a leader and teammate until he was 30. One made All-NBA 1st team as a rookie. The other didn’t make it until his 6th season in the NBA. Try again. Duncan was flat better early on. If he wasn’t, why was Kobe having to practice 10 hours a day and be revered because of it?
@@hardwoodthought1213Kobe was winning Game 7s of WCF and 2000 Finals pivotal game 4 in OT on 1 leg at the age Duncan was studying for Algebra and playing frisbee on the quad of Wake Forest
@@davis2k1234 And Duncan was leading a team to a title at age 23 Kobe didn’t lead a team to a playoff series win until he was almost 30 LMFAO Duncan was All-NBA 1st team as a rookie. Kobe wouldn’t make that until year 6 LMFAO
@shonrobinson1742 David was losing before Tim got there. As of now Kwahi has been off train. If I'm not mistaken David only played 2 years after Tim was drafted?
I didn’t enjoy this video.. I loved it! I’ve said the same thing for years but Kobe fans are too emotional and tend to shy away from facts. Informative video!
Just finished the video and man was this a really biased video. “Kobe averaged near 28 ppg, but still struggling with his efficiency” while shooting 41%, but Duncan was “he averaged 18 10 while battling Ben Wallace and shot 42% from the field,” bro 42% for a post player is way worse efficiency than a guard shooting 41% lmao throwing your shoulder out of socket with all the reaching you did in this video 😂
Duncan and the Spurs won that series against Detroit tho. Kobe shot 38% against Detroit in the 04 Finals. If he was a smarter player then he should have kept feeding Shaq who shot 63% against Ben Wallace rather than forcing shots and trying to win Finals MVP.
@@kabtown5631 you watched the number you didn’t watch the game. The game has gone to shame after these analytics guys having folks like you talking with authority with numbers.
This is a stupid comparison because kobe came into the league younger and less developed and had to be a bench player, kobe also wasnt blessed with having a consistently good roster like tim for his entire career and kobes injuries robbed him of from winning another ring
@@JM00237His own fault for coming out early. Duncan didn’t even start playing basketball until he was 14, by age 19 he was the universal number one pick in the draft, so clearly Duncan was just better naturally than Kobe who came from a basketball family
@@hardwoodthought1213 kobe was a better player Tim is just bigger, skillwise kobe is far superior. Tim might have a better IQ that's about it. Kobe was also forced to be a bench player because of the pecking order in the NBA at the time. Kobe had less help than Tim Duncan throughout his career as well.
"Just imagine Kobe never played with Shaq" I think it's fair to say that Kobe between 08-10 had a similar amount of help that Duncan had throughout his career. Kobe made it to 3 finals in a row in perhaps the most competitive conference ever and won back to back rings. Duncan never did any of that despite having good to great help through 20 years. I think you're massively underestimating Kobe's impact on winning Just look at their head to head matchups. Duncan always played great but Kobe was absolutely abusing him in the drop coverage. You mentioned Shaq winning finals MVPs but we all know that Lakers vs Spurs was the real finals and Kobe would have probably won the conference finals MVP that they do right now in both 01 and 02 with a peak Shaq I love Timmy and always defended him against the doubters when he was playing but man he has been so over glorified after retirement to a point where we're just having contrarian takes about him
The Lakers became Kobe’s team from 04 after Shaq left. Then he was the bona fide main man on the team and was still only 25 which was several years younger than MJ and Lebron James were when they won their first rings and what happened? 2 rings in 12 years… yeah he was way more of a loser than a winner without Shaq
It’s fair to say from 98-2004 Kobe had more help, the fact that Duncan got not one but two series wins on a team of that magnitude helps his case more.
Between 08-10 kobe did not have as much help as Duncan that is fuckin laughable. Those LA teams consisted of Pau and role players. Pau being a 1 time all star with a reputation for being soft. His softness was a reason for us getting whooped in 08. Kg was dogging him. Pau was great but kobe helped make him into a better player. Pau still had his issues as well he was playing so soft in the 2011 mavs series Phil had to punch him in the chest. Outside of kobe an aging Derek fisher, Lamar Odom, 19-21 year old Bynum, Steve Blake, Adam Morrison, Luke Walton, MWP who a lot of teams didn’t want due to his antics his efficiency also fell off after joining LA, Shannon brown, Saha vujevic, D.J mbenga 💀. all role players. To say they had similar help is again laughable. You give kobe 2 all stars instead of just pau there, la would probably be making deeper runs then what they did post 2010.
@@0vern9K you ain’t a fan clearly, Pau was a better overall player than both Parker and Manu. Don’t confuse winning bias to legitimately being better. And getting dogged by KG isn’t the end of the world that you think it is. Every powerforward not named Tim Duncan got dogged by KG. And i guess Duncan is better because he made Tony, Manu, and Bowens better players as all of them had nothing before Timmy. And unlike kobe, Tim’s lessons stuck with these players MWP and Kobe created arguably the best set of wing defenders in the year 2010, a guy who took Kobe to 7 without T-Mac and half of Yao while Kobe had Pau and Phil, but now he’s a problem? Also he flat out said Cleveland or LA or Houston were his only options. But hey down play Kobe’s teammates. Fine take 37 year old Bruce bownes, take at this point two all star and 1x all star Tony and Manu let’s see him take them anywhere. If only Kobe was given a player who won dpoy 3x in a row and a former mvp on his roster while still keeping Pau and Artest
This guy that did this video is a Kobe hater Duncan was better than kobe, but he was gotten beaten by Argentina and spain in the Olympics He retired from the Olympics shamefully, wuth a third medal until kobe came to save them wuth the dream team 😂😂 The joke is on you
Why didn’t Kobe play until he was damn near 30? Only 2 current All-Stars went in 04. Kobe waited until they had 8 current All-Stars before he was brave enough to go 😂😂😂 and still barely beat a Spanish team with 3 NBA level players 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@hardwoodthought1213 Okay? Overseas they bring their A-game, the best, all or nothing. They go crazy. It’s the USA that claims to be the best in the world, when it should be best in the USA. You making it sound like the Euro league is a joke, clearly you’ve never watched a full euro game in your life or you wouldn’t have said what you just said.
@@okoliestephen7311 know why Kobe wasn't on that Olympic team in 2003? He was fighting his rape charge. More games won, more MVP's, more Finals MVP's,, made the "All NBA Team, and the All Star team on his way to winning Rookie of the Year. Come on, now. Anybody who knows basketball picks Duncan over Kobe, like they pick Larry Bird over LeBron James.
@@MrArtdelgado210 Whilet Duncan is 100% over Kobe, LBJ is clearly over Bird. More MVPs titles, FMVPs, All-NBA, All-NBA 1st teams, All-Defensive teams, All-Stars, ROTY, basic and advanced stats
@@hardwoodthought1213 I'll stick with Larry all day, every day. Michael Jordan thinks the same thing, has said so on multiple occasions, and it's not about points scored, longevity, or records. Pat Riley said it best. "Iif I had to choose a player. to take a shot to save a game, I choose Michael Jordan. If I had to choose a player to take a shot. to save my life, I'd take Larry Bird." Jordan said Larry Bird is the best small forward to ever play the game of basketball. He's on Jordan's starting 5 of all time. Study Larry, so you can see what Jordan and so many othets see.
@@terricarter9435 Not a lie Duncun is better he's 5-1 ,Kobe missed the playoffs and is 5-2 Jesus, once again did you fool's even watch the end of the video? Lol...
I think the problem is we’re constantly talking about who’s better instead of giving players their flowers on their accomplishments which is why some guys are forgotten they both are great players and two different positions
Lol he said Duncan had the more efficient true shooting percentage, lol it was only .1 percent better and he averaged 6 more points, if not for the 3 post Achilles tare years Kobes true shooting percentage would be way higher..
@@iii898iii FG percentage is not efficiency. Example: Player A takes 10 shots and goes 5/10 but they are all 2s so he scores 10 points on 10 shots but its a 50% FG percentage. Player B takes 9 shots and goes 4/9 but they are all 3s so he scores 12 points on 9 shots but its 44% FG percentage. Player B just scored more points on less shots than Player A so Player B was MORE efficient with a lower FG percentage. That's why FG percentage doesn't matter, it doesn't measure efficiency, True Shooting percentage does..
@@jasonmoukala8909 You just talking, come with a sensible argument. 4/9 shooting all 3s is a 44% fg percentage scoring 12 points on 9 shots, 5/10 shooting all 2s is a 50% fg percentage scoring 10 points on 10 shots which is LESS efficient. Which one is more efficient? FG percentage doesn't matter. You have no rebuttal...
@@jasonmoukala8909 "FG percentage is what matters" why when it doesn't measure efficiency? "Because I hate Kobe and I said so" What facts do you have to back that up? "Imagine thinking fg percentage doesn't matter, Kobe stans bs bla blah blah" Okay but I gave you facts? "I DON'T CARE, IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE I HATE KOBE". Kobe haters rational is hilarious 😂😂🤣😂😂😂😭😭😭😭😭😭
Duncan was the better and more consistent player. Also, brought a lot less drama to a team, and didn't feel the need to be an a$$hole to his teammates...like Kobe chose to be. Both great players, but Duncan was better.
Can’t give it to Timmy never led a team on his own had 2 other teammates win finals mvp possibly 3/4 HOFs teammates that was their for a career meanwhile Kobe beat them in the playoffs a few times with no other allstar plus his record against Timmy without the supporting cast like Timmy so the numbers don’t mean nothing
Feel free to go look at what Duncan did in 2003, then come back talking about never won on his own 😂😂😂😂 didn’t even have a current All-Star teammate and still won. Kobe never won unless Shaq or Pau made All-NBA that season Try again.
"greatness refers to the basketball legacy you left behind" - Kobe's legacy and influence on basketball is scales of magnitude bigger than Duncan "better refers to your skills, abilities, and *natural talents*" - this seems to fit Duncan far better in my opinion They should have been switched
22:20 Duncan didn't have to dominate anything. He had most stable team coach gm ever. Spurs kept winning wo him w klaw la Green lol. Kobe peak was w no help. Timmy never lacked help lol. Kobe in 08 failing was more valuable than Timmy 3 rings winning lol. You didn't say that did you
Did Tim scare away his help his entire career? Lol not hating Kobe but he was kinda an ass to everyone and he lost a lot of players because of his attitude and pride
@@krash22mini72 you're a lying loser. Kobe didn't scare away Shaq. You all forced him to give him up! Never did that to MJ w pip and Kobe had a tougher conference
@@ameyt9319 Kobe wins more vs Duncan in the playoffs. 3peat and back to back champ is Better than duncan's back to back REGULAR Season MVP. 2000 to 2010 Kobe - 7 Finals winning 5 Rings, Player of the Decade! FYI Duncan is the real leader of the 2004 usa olympic team that he help to a bronze! Bronze medal. Kobe help 08 usa olympic team back to Gold medal.
People don’t really have this debate because Kobe fans want to shoehorn him into a goat debate he doesn’t belong in, while Tim Duncan fans are asking we appreciate Tim Duncan as an upper echelon all time great at all.
Duncan ain't better than bird and magic, can't touch Iverson. Let's get real he can't touch those guys let alone Barkley, or grant hill and Reggie miller
Tim Duncan is better constant winner. Plus it's actually 3-4 in the playoffs the entire Spurs vs Lakers from '99-'13 '04 could've gone either way had fishers shot not counted. Plus Kobe wasn't going win in '13 even if was healthy. On top of Spurs never missing the playoffs. My Spurs we're 28 seconds from being 6-0 In the finals like the bull's. Even though 5-1 is incredible still.
The bias in this statement is insane. Plus we can't say the lakers wouldn't have won in 2013. If you have Kobe, Dwight, Nash and Pau all playing, the Lakers definitly had a real chance.
@@silvershadow8405if healthy...maybe. but bro...I have to ask where you around as a full grown adult at the time in 2013? I was and if you we're you would know those Lakers had zero chemistry they had Nash in his last year's and just couldn't stay healthy. Sorry Kobe alone can't beat the Kawi Spurs. Especially during that time.
@@silvershadow8405 even before Lebron joined the Heat, he started consistently getting the better of Kobe in his later Cavs years. The Heat vs Lakers were a different beast altogether. On the other hand, the Spurs were the perfect counter to the Heat's style of play.
Kobe was a big reason why they won the 3 straight championships. And the reason he didn't win 1 finals MVP was because the East didn't have any great Centers. Kobe dominated in the playoffs with great big men and great defensive guards in the West
The biggest claim to being the best ever for Kobe and Duncan is that they won the most during the most competitive era of the league in the most competitive conference in the history of the league
Duncan was the better player . More regular season Mvps, more Finals Mvps, and a better finals record 5-1 . Made the playoffs ever year, and had a winning road record. Nuff said
Who says if they don't get Shaq, LA doesn't get someone else and Kobe still wins(maybe not 3) and has more fmvps Also in 2000 Kobe got injured "Duncan had to dominate ever since he got in the league" You showed three sub 20 point playoff performances where someone else won the fmvp in two of them
If Kobe had Pau instead of Shaq from day 1 he’s still winning 5+ if not more. And without a torn Achilles he would have almost as many points as Kareem.
This is an extremely difficult debate to have because both players obviously played very different positions but they both had great success. Only thing that both players were extremely similar, is their leadership & their amazing commitment to win. In my personal opinion for them is... Both KOBE BRYANT & Tim Duncan are 2 of the greatest players ever. Easily both in the top 20.
Their leadership is nothing alike. Duncan is the greatest leader since Russel and best teammate ever, Kobe was a shitty leader and teammate bar his later title years
Nope. He had only 1 other current All-Star with him in AI. Rest were role players and rookies. Kobe waited until he was in year 12 when the team had 8 other CURRENT All-Stars before he went and played 😂😂😂 and despite that still barely beat Spain
@@0vern9K Context isn’t an excuse. In 2008 Team USA had 9 CURRENT All-Stars and barely beat a Spain team who had 3 NBA level players, so why should a team with 2 CURRENT All-Stars and a coach who was sabotaging the team be expected to beat Argentina who has the same as Spain? Explain that? So Kobes excuse for losing with super teams in 1998, 2004 and 2013 is what? Kobes excuse for missing the playoffs 4 times in his career is what? Kobes excuse for blowing a 3-1 lead is what? Kobes excuse for winning 1 MVP in 20 seasons is what?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Because they had Tim Duncan leading them. yall kill me bro y’all rave and thrive about Duncan’s leadership, unselfishness and all this power of team work😭, but the minute that’s supposed to shine. In the Olympic Games where chemistry is key for a bunch of guys who’ve never played together that shit ain’t matter or show up. Now it’s he didn’t have enough help. The nba is the best league in the world don’t matter if the guys weren’t superstars or a bunch of all stars still solid nba guys. And kobe can’t control who is and isn’t an all star on the roster 💀 1998 and 2004 and 2013 weren’t super teams💀. A super team is 2 top 5 players and an all nba level player which no kobe team ever had. Making the playoffs is a team feat it isn’t 1v5 kobe had a poor team some seasons. And in 05 they were on track for the playoffs until kobe missed a month of action with a ankle sprain. And don’t say “ so did Duncan “ can’t compare Olympic game rosters to regular season nba teams You mean the year they were the 7 seed and played the suns? Again I repeat were the 7TH seed and played THE SUNS. 😂😂. And your talking about MVPs idc for those there media voted awards ran by politics. Only ppl that put all that weight in those are casuals.
@@0vern9K Chemistry is important? If that’s the case, again how was USA expected to win when every other top 15 player bar Duncan backed out last minute out of fear of terrorism? Leaving Duncan a bunch of head cases and rookies and a coach who demanded they win a team game without having ever played as a team? You’ve exactly proved why they lost. Where was Kobe in 04? Or Shaq? Or Carter? Or KG? Or McGrady? Or Pierce? 1998 LA had FOUR CURRENT All-Stars. They got swept. In 2004, they had 4 of the 40 greatest players ever and got trounced. In 2013, they had 2 CURRENT top 5 players in Kobe and Howard, Nash who was an All-Star in 2012, Pau who has All-NBA in 2011, and MWP. They were a 9 seed until Kobe got hurt 😂😂😂😂 In 2005, LA were on a 31 win pace in the 16 games Kobe missed. They won 34, so Kobe added 3 wins value 😂😂😂 In 2006, Phoenix were missing Amare and Joe Johnson. They lost because Kobe became selfish. In the 3 wins v Phoenix, Kobe didn’t lead his own team in scoring once, but now he had no help?
kobe didn’t get phil jackson until his 3rd season in the league. he couldn’t come out and dominate cuz the head coach at the time was too stuck on byron scott🤣 u gotta think about situations bro, duncan came into a mediocre spurts team, of course he’s gonna have to produce more. kobe came into an already good lakers team, so he has to prove that he can get that starting position. he did that AND WON 3 finals as THE CLOSER in 3 consecutive finals. Shaw might’ve BEEN the number one option, but kobe imprinted himself into that team. u also have to remember that duncan had THE GREATEST coach of all time in his corner. kobe’s OBJECTIVELY better than duncan, no question. the fact that this is even a debate is crazy. put kobe with a perfect supporting cast around him like timmy had from the get go and kobe is OBJECTIVELY the GOAT. kobe in 2008-2010 had a team that wasn’t even ALL that good, but was a GREAT supporting cast for him, and he was the BEST basketball player on the court no matter who he played. duncan is not greater, nor better than kobe. there shouldn’t be debates about kobe being less than anything other than top 3 all time. if he’s compared to anybody OTHER than lebron or jordan, then whoever is starting the debate needs to just end the conversation… kobe is NO LESS than top 3. duncan prolly 8th. (jordan, kobe, bron are interchangeably 1-3, however u wanna put them) kareem, shaq, magic, bird, hakeem, wilt, timmy and then bill russel soon after. timmy definitely great, but he’s not in that ELITE top 3 company great, like kobe is…. let’s get serious guys.
And Kobe proved he deserved to start when he airballed against pacers when he was starting out? And the year when the lakers won their first title, Shaq won mvp and had the best season of his entire career, Phil Jackson was head coach, and Kobe didn’t have to every worry about being guarded by the teams best player (unless it was a forward or guard) because the other teams entire defensive plan was against Shaq not Kobe. Duncan put more production then Kobe in his early years showing he can lead the team right off the bat, and not only that but be the reason they won all while being the leader and if you check their stats Duncan>kobe per 100 possessions bro he just didn’t have to because Duncan’s ball was all about team and winning, Kobe’s was about himself and winning. Duncan>Kobe bro it’s ok
You forgetting he wasn't even top of his class? you wanted him to start over Eddie Jones? Kobe fans are youngster who doesn't know sht. YEs kobe work ethic was insane, thats what made him great. But lets not act like he was a starter in his first 3 seasons
The guy on the video totally isn't bias he showed you ALL the facts right there. Are most of the hardcore nba fans like myself biased also for Duncan? The least liked player on the least liked team my Spurs? I don't think so...c'mon now. I always put Kobe ahead of lerbron and i put duncun ahead of Kobe and Jordan above them all.
Kobe has the love of hyper casuals because of his low efficiency, low team play, low win generating bulk scoring. If he didn’t fit the 1 and only archetype that those casual fans have appreciation for Duncan would win 10/10 times. As it stands Duncan is still dramatically better. But the popular vote goes to Kobe
@@anryXcurse not ironic, a straw man at best. Duncan is still efficient and Kobe is still inefficient. Duncan is also an insanely underrated defender and Kobe a notable overrated defender.
@@willemcenter8649 Kobe actually efficient and better scorer than Duncan and their head to head matchups in playoffs can show you how Kobe outplayed Duncan.
@@anryXcurse not even remotely correct. Kobe is a negative on offense from 2 and 3. He is a turnover machine unless he is jacking up shots - which are inefficient - and never once carried the Lakers. The head to head with Duncan doesnt matter because Duncan was the most productive player on 4/5 of his rings. Kobe on 0/5. Keep choking on his meat though
@@willemcenter8649 hahahaha nice try troll. Fun fact Duncan and Kobe have the same career TS (true shooting%) Duncan was not really Efficient scorer for his position. But nice try troll. You're clearly a hater who doesn't even have NBA knowledge.
If you were in the west between 1999-2014, it was nearly impossible to win or even get to the finals with these 2 around...10 combined championships in 16 seasons...not counting the 3 additional combined finals losses..... That left just 3 seasons open for other west teams to get in there which dallas and okc did
It’s not a debate. Tim slightly better than Kobe on defense and Kobe is substantially better than Tim on offense. The better debate is Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe clears but it’s a better debate
@@t.g.8471Because Duncan is the most consistent superstar ever and Kobe one of the least consistent Is it LA or SA who won without their star player? Is it Jackson or Pop who won without their star player?
The fact anyone thinks this is a debate is insane, Duncan is phenomenal, but his absolute peak was short, and not as good as Kobe’s. Duncan got back packed to his last ring.
@@scottb3034 leonard was young and Admiral was past his prime. Context matters. I could say Kobe had Shaq, Payton, Malone, Nash and Howard, who are all nba 75 level (Howard was definately snubbed) That's still way more 75 teammates. Tony Parker is a great player, and so is Manu. But 1 fmvp doesn't say that much. Andre Iguodala has 1fmvp and he's not a superstar
@@kevinjohnson4498 Jesus your a casual. All nba teams are ran by position just cause you didn’t make it doesn’t mean you didn’t play at that level your position could just be fuckin loaded. Pau was making an all nba teams but in regards to ginobli and Parker paus a foward. The forward and big spots were weak compared to guards. Ginobli competing with Kobe, D Wade, TMac, and parker competing with prime CP3, Steve nash, and D will back when it was a convo who was the best PG between him and paul. You can’t compare them or say paus better simply because of all nba teams casual
@@LeKy-yd2zj yea talk about context but leave all of it out when regarding kobe. Duncan sucking you off or sum cause the bias is crazy. Payton was 35 in his 14th season. malone was 40 In his LAST season, and playing with injuries a ton he only played 42 games. Nash and Dwight? Nash was old as dirt on LA 38 and 39 and was 2 seasons away from retirement when he joined LA, Dwight had back surgery the offseason prior to joining LA, that he rushed back to play from not fully healthy. He said so himself in interviews. Dwight in LA was not Orlando Dwight neither was he when he joined harden, the hawks, or the hornets. Leonard was young but he was ascending he made all nba defensive team in 2014 then the year after won dpoy. He won with an ASCENDING Kawahi. Admiral was not past his prime he was right at the end. When they won in 99 during a lockout btw he was 34. For comparison Gary like you mentioned was 35. Yes winning finals mvp doesn’t make you a superstar but your just blindly saying that. Comparing Tony’s and iggys finals MVPs are laughable. If you watched that GS series iggy wasn’t clamping bron they just doubled his ass and stats were giving iggy credit for brons missess as the primary defender curry was the finals mvp everyone knows this. In 07 Duncan had his worst finals of his life the Cavs front court was harassing him making him shoot 44% as a center which is awful. Tony Parker doesn’t step up and take over like he did the spurs don’t win that series. Winning finals mvp don’t make you a SS but clearly you have the skill to play at that level in Tony’s case which he did casual. Duncan had more constant help then kobe. And shaq? He played with shaq for the majority of his younger years not his prime. He didn’t play with shaq all 20 years, in his prime how some of you act. And after 2000 he was performing just as good as shaq in the regular season. Just the playoffs and finals are about miss matches and shaq is huge
14:00 It also shows that Kobe didn't win in 09 and 10 by himself like Kobe fans like to argue. Pau Gasol and a team of good role players made for a solid team on their own, which Pau had already proved in Memphis as the best player surrounded by good roles players like Mike Miller, Shane Battier, and James Posey.
Gasol before Kobe had 1 all star appearance, 0 all nba teams and 0 playoff career wins in 7 seasons. Gasol with Kobe had 3 all star appearances, 3 all nba teams, 55 playoff wins and 2 rings over 5 seasons
When Kobe had worse teammates than you listed for Gasol’s years in Memphis (from 05-07) Kobe still won 4 playoff games and was all nba first team, all nba defensive first team and named all star starter each season
@@hardwoodthought1213 Kobe elevated Pau into that player, as illustrated above. It took Duncan having Parker and Ginobili making all star teams during his championship seasons (not to mention to mention Parker winning a finals MVP), along with Bowen making all defensive teams perennially
How do you compare a sg and a pf? The shot selection is completely different! In the big man era centers and powerf are catching the ball either for a dunk lay up or a 6 foot jump shot! Shooters are normally 10 ft +away! Stats don't say kobe was dealing with a career ending injury! And it doesn't show that he is number 2 in 4th quarter points scored! Guess who's number one?
I give an edge to Kobe. He’s gone through media scrutiny after his scandal and feud with shaq. NBA media tried to bring him down, but he focussed on his craft and saved his reputation. He’s gone through hell to achieve this. Tim Duncan while consistent, he plays with a system and was never really a vocal person and wasn’t under high media scrutiny. Not to mention Kobe was the bigger icon and have greater basketball cultural impact
So Kobe gets praised for being a terrible human being? Duncan was the leader of the teams every teammate he had said so. Man has a whole chapter on him in a book on sports leadership, Kobe meanwhile was a disaster as a leader outside 07-11
@@hardwoodthought1213 people overcoming obstacles, gotta respect that. Also even at work those are the ones who usually get promotions, not the consistent workers, if you think about it
@@chief8268 Also the ones likely to get fired But the difference isn’t Duncan being a B- leader for 20 years with Kobe being A+ for 10 and C for 10, it’s Duncan being A+ for 20 years, Kobe being an F for 15 and a B+ for 5. As leaders and teammates they aren’t comparable or close
@@chief8268 Sure. And yet, virtually every teammate who ever played with Duncan said he was the best teammate AND leader they ever had. So that dispels everything you just said instantly. Pop was a hard coach. And Duncan’s character and leadership allowed him to be coached hard, which meant everyone could be coached hard because the teams best player was. That isn’t ‘leadership’. Since Duncan, how has Pops leadership looked? Duncan was the one who led by example and offered comfort for his teammates. It’s a form of leadership that dudes as wide ranging as Stephen Jackson (weed head and villain), Robinson (Christian military man), Parker (French rapper), Brent Barry (ultimate student of the game) have all attested to. Steve Kerr played with MJ and he does nothing but heap praise on how Duncan was. There’s a story he tells of 2003 where for training camp Duncan stayed in a hotel with the team. He and Danny Ferry asked why he was, he was MVP of the league he could have gone home but he stayed to grow a team culture. And the kicker here is that not only have the vast majority of teammates confirmed he was the above in addition to being the reason the Spurs had a culture, he also hasn’t a SINGLE teammate who has ever questioned his character, or leadership or style. Kobe from 07-11 was a really great leader. Dudes like Gasol and Fisher wax poetic on it, and watching it as I did it’s clear Kobe figured out how to lead. With that said, that’s 4 or 5 years. Before and after he was the opposite. He has DOZENS of teammates, coaches, GMs, parents, concubines dismantle his character and style. You’re of the elk clearly who thinks ‘leader’ means screams at teammates, works hard and takes glory. Duncan (and to a lesser extent Steph) prove the opposite. When Kobe has a chapter written on him in a book on sports leadership, I’ll listen. When his coach of 20 years claims his entire success was down to drafting him and not dying, and breaking down in literal tears over the fact that Duncan entered the league the same man he did when he left, I’ll listen. Try again. You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Kobe is greater than Duncan in many things. Leading men isn’t one of them
@@rockysalvatore435 6 over 15 years and would have repeated once instead of 4 times....and would not have been Finals MVP in half of the series....some GOAT.
I am a huge Timmy fan but Kobe . Few issues with the logic ,Kobe was 18 year old so no way he was taking control of team with a prime Shaq and his first couple of years was "learning on the job" and he did his part by playing well enough to prove he was. As you said The rosters were some bad years but it wasn't Kobe's fault. He wanted Shaq to work a bit more on his body , Kobe was being a leader and Shaq didn't care ( I love Shaq and not taking shots) enough and wanted out. Kobe didn't bend and wanted to play the right way or re-build. Kobe was more up and down and had some high volume years that his % dipped but his ceiling was higher. The issue with Timmy is it's bit like the "Brady or Bill" debate with The NFL goat talk , Timmy had one of if not the the best NBA HC's , Robinson was the prefect role model and someone that I know would have worked with Timmy , nothing wrong with this and Tim was going to be great with or without , then the Spurs roster , having a core group where for most of the time maybe 1 core player would change per a season or two , basically Timmy will be very hard to place not because of his non flashy play but because it's hard to say , was it the way the roster was built or Timmy that was winning , it was both but when your talking about this top tier of a list it's tiny things to pick from with no real wrong answers. The other issue is that if Timmy is ahead of Kobe that means all-time as well and with LeBron stock going down , you would also have to say Tim was at worst 5th best player to a ton of people/fans. good idea for a video though.
@@syzorst true but Kobe was a just as good 2nd option, no he didn’t have prime Shaq but he always had good teams for the most part..I said TEAMS not sidekick. TD wasnt the best player on all his chips neither Parker got a fmvp, Robinson old but still effective, Manu was cold af for years and ofc Kawhi. Kobe had a mean dry spell after Shaq left came back repeated with 2 fmvps Best TEAM player I’m going with TD all day but individually it’s Kobe no debate and I might be wrong and have to fact check myself but I think he played more competition at his position for longer than TD after Webber and KG it get a little murky but like I said gotta fact check myself in case I forgot something Another thing y’all glaze Shaq but forgot he didn’t do shit til he got Kobe and he had PLNETY help before 2000
@qdontae6 Kobe played with Shaq for 7 years. That a large chuck of time. In 2003, Tim Duncan beat the Kobe and Shaq Lakers with a rookie Manu Genobli and second year Tony Parker. On top of that, in the late 2000s, he had Pau Gasol so let's look at that team overall. Kobe had the best front court in the league with Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum and the best rotation player in Lamar Odom. David Robinson after 1999 was a shell of himself because of injuries. Even if you want to say Tony Parker was better than Tim Duncan in 07 (which I don't think he was) simply because of a fmvp than that doesn't matter because Tim Duncan was the best player in 3 out of 5 od his championships, hence the 3 fmvps while Kobe only has 2. Shaq not winning a championship before Kobe doesn't change the fact he was easily a top 3 player in the league by the time Kobe was drafted. He was definitely better than David Robinson by 1998.
@@syzorst bruh Kobe wasn’t shit the first few years with Shaq he had 2 all stars in LA before Kobe got right and Penny in Orlando and ain’t do shit..I love Shaq and he unstoppable but cmon now he wasn’t a 1 man army, TD could lead teams better than Shaq. Robinson I said was old but homie was still putting up 16 and 10 in the lockout year and 18 and 10 the next. And when it comes to Pau he nowhere near TD or Shaq level he wasn’t even better than prime Chris Webber ppl need to stop that bs like Pau was the best PF in the league before LA 🤣 And Shaq might’ve been a top 3 player but don’t mean shit if u always getting beat with 2 other all stars on that team that says a lot more about Kobe value and as for Parker oh well, he won it whether he better overall or not he played good af in 2007 and out score TD and Queen James that series
@qdontae6 What does Kobe not being shit for the first few years have to with anything? Did Kobe play with Shaq for a few years or 7 years? Last I checked, Shaq left the Lakers after 04 by which Kobe was already a great player by 2000 onward. The fact remains is Kobe had a prime Shaq for several years. Shaq not winning a championship before 2000 doesn't change the fact he was a top 3 player in the league but if it makes you feel better, Shaq won a championship in 2006 in Miami so he proved he could win without Kobe. 😮💨 David Robinson wasn't only old but a shell of himself because of injuries. Comparing that version of David Robinson to a prime Shaq is a joke. You bring up Chris Webber but by 2007-2008 when Pau Gasol was traded to the Lakers, how good was Chris Webber by that point? Oh yeah that's right, it was his last year in the league avg 4ppg and 3 rebounds 🤣🤣🤣.
Duncan wins cause he got ejected for laughing at referee. That was such a goat move
The ref also wanted to fight him after the game. Btw Duncan is 7ft 250 pounds and was taking boxing lessons at the time. You can guess how it would turn out
Dunacn is slow@@ruzgar1372
When Tim Duncan retired, the Spurs had a winning record against every franchise in the NBA. Greatness.
@@MrArtdelgado210 they also won 60+ games and went to the wcf the season after as well because that’s how consistently good his teams were
@@0vern9K and then immidiatedly fell off the following season as he became less involved. Tim was the cornerstone of that foundation and retired just as Kahwi came into his own.
@@TK-ev 2017 the 1st year after Tim left they won 61 games and made the wcf which was farther then they got with Tim in 2016, on a team with a historic 40-2 record and 67 wins just to loose in the second round 😂. 2018 they won 47 games they were fine without tim
Damn they had a great Team look at all the players on their championship rosters vs Kobe’s championship teams
@@0vern9Kexactly because the spurs had a great front office that’s why they won 5 chips it wasn’t because of Timmy it was the collection of players
In the all star part we must remember that david Robinson was not the same of 89-96,he was not in his prime and took a back seat for duncan while shaq was in his prime 99-03
On his prime yet Kobe was still exploding when Shaq sat out for a team not built around Kobe lol
@@rockysalvatore435stop acting like Kobe wasn’t part of it lmao multiple times when Kobe didn’t feel like he wasn’t getting the ball enough he would make sure he would start getting more touches and sometimes puts up more shots then Shaq 🤔
@@joseadanuleriogonzalez7036 that doesn't counter anything I said Latinx brainlet
@@joseadanuleriogonzalez7036and that’s how they lost in 2004 finals. Good job kobe
@@joseadanuleriogonzalez7036 Multiple? it happened once in 2004
If Duncan was flashy & marketable like Kobe, he would win this debate 9 times out of 10. Fact is, you're always going to have 6 Kobe supporters for every 1 Duncan supporter, simply due to the power of the L.A. market compared to San Antonio.
Point is real simple, if I'm a coach or GM & i want the selflessness of Duncan. Guaranteed to have more success over a 20 year period.
Bro be quiet y’all kill me with this. So anyone who thinks kobe is better then Duncan are kobe Stan’s? Duncan isn’t regarded as better because he isn’t flashy? Stop the crying and excuses.
Just cause someone isn’t flashy or marketable doesn’t mean ppl will downright not acknowledge you as the better player If your better then someone. Jokic isn’t marketable at all he’s still renounced as the best player in basketball tho. Yes Duncan isn’t flashy but to say why that’s why he isn’t ranked highly especially when compared to kobe is just crying and not true.
If you care about selflessness nobody cares basketball ain’t about that and that ain’t gon win you chips all the time. You’d think the fact the spurs never won back to back or even made 3 straight finals would tell you that. Kobe was the better player. Not cause he’s dead or more popular he was better at basketball then Tim.
@@0vern9Kyou didn’t give any argument you just yapped and said that Kobe’s better at basketball when he isn’t. Carried in his first 3 chips and in 2010 would’ve lost again had it not been for kg being injured and then pau violating the paint because of it. Jokic was denied of his three peat of mvp LAST SEASON BECAUSE OF MARKETING. You see Ant a lot because he’s marketable, it’s true what the commentator said “for every 6 Kobe fans you have 1 time Duncan fan” I always heard Kobe in the goat discussion but it got ramped by 20x when Kobe sadly passed away. Duncan has 2 MVPs and 3 finals mvp’s more than Kobe and can you tell me why? Because at the end of the day Duncan won you games and made teammates better, Kobe would win you games but wants to take all the shots.
And you saying “if you care about selflessness who cares basketball ain’t about that” then why did the 2014 spurs absolutely dominate the heat? Why is their basketball often referred to as”how basketball SHOULD BE PLAYED” because it’s a team sport not a shot chucking sport in which Kobe would definitely be the king.
@@joseadanuleriogonzalez7036 Exactly my point. Duncans humbleness & culture paved the way for how dominant the Spurs were from 2011-2016, even if he was past his prime.
Meanwhile, you have Kobe belittling teammates & creating an environment less than ideal. Fun fact: Kobe never got higher than the 7th seed without Shaq or Gasol.
@@slimypickle19 someone who knows ball 🙏🏻
Even Shaq said "Kobe could have won finals MVP in those early years if he wanted to" but they planned a strategy that had Shaq become the FMVP
ok chill
kobe's years after the acl injury in '13 really killed his stats & made people forget just how ridiculous he was
@@tjfrye11 also kobe's first 3 years.
@@johnchavez1947 where he didn't get many minutes, yes
I think part of the reason why duncan vs kobe isnt appreciated the same way larry vs magic is because they were in the same conference. A rivalry just can't get to the same level if the rivals never met on the biggest stage.
I grew up a lakers fan, i love kobe but as time goes on i get more appreciation and respect for duncan. They're definitely on the same tier in my goat pyramid.
Nah. Wilt and Bill were in the same conference for a long time. They did meet in the finals like 2 times and Bill won both
@@mavsfanforever7919but that doesn’t get talked about like magic and bird because it was one sided when it came to greatness and one sided when it came to individual skill.
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i mean they still met in the playoffs when it mattered 1999,2001-2004, 2008
What are u talking abt they stopped each other from reaching the finals a bunch of times how does that not start a rivalry
Diehard Kobe fan but I completely agree with this video. It's tragic how Timmy's accomplished largely go unnoticed nowadays. His impact on the Spurs' culture of winning should never be forgotten.
It’s like that because Tim wasn’t dominant he was a system player that played with great teammates just look at what he avg for a career
@@shonrobinson1742you don’t win back to back MVPS without being dominant. You’re probably to young to remember prime Duncan
Because he wasn't that big of a star in terms of marketing, tim would be called the GOAT if he had kobe's marketing
@@ckthegreat100 holy casual yes tf you can💀. Steve nash won back to back MVPs he wasn’t dominating no fuckin body. And the mvp is the most valuable player award. You and causals need to stop acting like it’s the best or most dominant player in the world award or some shit
@@gelkezo3039 bro don’t start this crybaby ass shit if Duncan was that good he’d be ranked that high simple as that
The Greatest Power Forward Vs. The Second Best Shooting Guard (Next to GOAT Jordan).
The 2003 Finals was The Greatest Carry Job Ever.
@@leomarlonestrada5954 y’all kill me with this how did he carry them? Anytime a team that isn’t loaded with stars wins a chip casuals instantly call it a carry job. 3 other players scoring in double figures, Bruce born, ginobli, Parker, speedy claxton, stephon Jackson, David to robinson
And this is why you should actually watch the series Duncan’s 4th quarter were bad to meh every game. He didn’t lead SA in points in any 4th besides game 1, his fg% dipped in the 4th every game as well outside of game 1, in what world are you carrying but constantly being out scored by teammates in the 4th that makes no sense. How are you carrying when your teammates who ARE GUARDS are shooting more efficiently then you in 4th quarters? You have google you see his 4th quarter numbers that finals they aren’t pretty. Yk who’s is? Stephon Jackson, Tony’s.
Stop being a casual and looking at the players and there overall stats, actually watch the games, and breakdown the important factors like the 4th quarters
It's easier to compare Duncan to Dream than Kobe due to the position and how basketball was played back then... Hakeem is often overlooked cos he only won 2 rings but his overall career is not behind guys like Duncan or Kobe....
The fact that for 11 straight years, one of these two teams made the finals is insane.
I don’t think we’ll ever get a rivalry at this high of a level ever again
The ONLY guard in NBA HISTORY with 33,000 points, 6,000 assists & , 7000 rebounds.
- Most points by a G
- Most assists by a SG
- Most rebounds by a SG
- Most FT by a G
- Most Allstar Games by a G (18)
- Most All NBA Selections by a G (15)
- Most All NBA Defense by a G (12)
- Most Game Winners (40)
- Most fifty win teams beaten in playoffs (24)
- 5 Championships
*** Kobe’s career spanned 20 years, but he MISSED NEARLY 5 YEARS WORTH OF GAMES •••
*** Played in the slowest paced and statistically the most defensive era in NBA HISTORY, with scores often ending in the 70’s and 80’s, and teams having defensive specialists throughout, as opposed to the high scoring 1980’s or the current game which offense is at a premium and defense is diminished, evidenced by scores often ending in the 120’s and 130’s. ***
- Offensive Capacity :
- 81 ...
- 55 in a half,
- 67, 62, 56, 55 in 3 Quarters ..
- 40 points averaged for a whole month X 4 DIFFERENT TIMES...
- 12 - 3 pointers in 1 game ...
- 9 straight 40 point games ...
- 4 straight 50 point games ...
- Best leader, all round defensive and offensive player & clutch player 2008 Olympics
- Slam Dunk Champion
- Work ethic : Best in history
- Entertainment Value : 100% money’s worth each and every night ...
- Maniacally competative with ultra fierce tenacity on both sides of the ball ...
- Demoralize other teams with constant hustle and effort on every single play ...
- Skillset :
Most diverse and refined skillset the NBA has ever seen, who else has been athletic enough to win a slam dunk contest, yet able to hit 12 - 3 pointers in a game, yet have post play, mid -range, and footwork comparable to and or better than any player in league history.
THE ONLY PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY
Who’s game was so complete, he could claim his game was WITHOUT ...
- Without postplay restriction
- Without midrange restriction
- Without range and 3 point restriction
- Without FT restriction
- Without Clutch fear and restriction
- Without Athleticism restrictions
- Without Handles & Crossover restrictions
- Without Footwork restrictions
- All above resulting in no less than 3 counter moves for every offensive move ... !!!
Add the 12 ALL NBA DEFENSE SELECTIONS ...
ONLY KOBE 🐐🐍
#GOAT
#ICON
#Kobe
#CHAMPION
Yet all that and he's only the second best sg of all time while tim Duncan is the best pf all time and it's not even a debate
Tim Duncan for sure
not even close 😅
@@joshpaniagua7645 do I need to explain the idiocy in this statement.
@@andrewlumbi8792 he top #10 , but not the Goat . Look at your Top #10 , he the worst shooter …..on your own list . Check it out. Never had a dominant finals run like Joker, Janice, Dirk , or Bron ……Never. I gots Duncan at #6. Kobe at #10
@@ncg25out also jordan, 35 and 41 ppg in two finals is mad crazy
I feel like it's hard to compare them Tim Duncan is a slow placed player as Kobe is a fast paced player.
Oh boy… now you’ve opened the floodgates. Try comparing their stats per 100 possessions (this roughly levels the playing field in terms of pace). Duncan has easily better stats than Kobe in that regard. In fact, Duncan has possibly the best stats of any basketball player ever, if you look at his per 100 stats. Dude was insane
@@sgrey9181 joker Luka clear Timmy
@@sgrey9181 TRUE
@@rockysalvatore435 NOPE
It is more like You Are comparing A Post Player to a Perimeter Player.
We can't say that Kobe wouldn't have won more rings if he never had Shaq, given just how dedicated he was and what he did on the way to the his last 2 championships.
U know damn well he wouldn’t stop with the fan boy bias crap
@@Moneyteam2324 with the state of the league yes he could. The early 2000’s east was cheeks the west finals was THE REAL FINALS. The only obstacles really were the kings and the spurs kinda. Even tho as usual in 2000, and 2002 the spurs lost in the 2nd round or prior. Because Duncan and the spurs lost a ton in the post season without going past the 2nd round. With good teams. Not smush Parker and kwame brown.
@@0vern9Kdude missed the playoffs his first year without Shaq. He was in his mid 20’s prime at the time. You think he would have done better at 20
@@ckthegreat100he blew a 3-1 lead to the suns too
@@ckthegreat100 why do y’all come on here and just say shit. Yes kobe missed the playoffs his first year. He was an 18 year old rookie why are you talking about it like it’s some testament 💀? Your saying that like he was in his prime or some shit. And some goofys actually liked that comment lol.
There’s no such thing as a mid 20’s prime 💀. Your prime is your late 20’s to mid 30’s kobe wasn’t in his prime from 2000-2004 wtf. If kobe has his own team and a coach who actually played him early in his career yes he would
13:54 - I think your point about “if Duncan wasn’t on the roster the Spurs would’ve still been good” is misleading. Case in point, almost immediately after Tim Duncan left, the Spurs started struggling. IMO, his leadership, which doesn’t show up in win shares, contributed a large number of wins to his teams. The teams he played on had decent roster construction, but they thrived because he was their leader.
They won 60 games and went to the WCF after Tim left..
@@Kalinbuggs to put it frankly duncan was not longer the focal point of their success once he reached his 30s....which of course was like 10 years of his career.
@@scottb3034 facts
@@Kalinbuggs yeah, for one season, but if you followed the Spurs at all that year, you would know the vibes were off and a lot of players were unhappy. It was like the 2001 Lakers, where there was a lot of internal beef going on, but because they had such a good roster, they were still a very competitive team
@@sgrey9181 tru but my thing Tim averaged 13 & 9 in ‘11 yet the team still won 60+ games with an 5-9 point drop off from other years. The defense was always great but when we talk about guys like Kobe, lbj , magic , bird or mj they’re winning 60+ games with a drop off in production like that. That shows you how good the spurs as a team were as well
When I was in high school we were arguing about Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan
Good, now do Taco Fall vs Scalabrine debate
Kobe all day every day. This wasn’t a debate when they were still playing in the league.
Because the debate was controlled by marketers. If the league had their way, the Spurs would have went out in the first round every season.
@@FavreianVengeance Marketers?! the media didn’t even like Kobe💀. One minute y’all say he’s a selfish ball hog who drives his teammates away, now somehow he’s some marketable media darling the league was pushing? Stop with your disgusting narratives it was seen that way because it was fact LMFAO KOBE WAS BETTER THEN TIM. this ain’t lebron, kobe wasn’t pushing ppl in the media to talk about how good he was
@@0vern9K Who told you the media didn't like Kobe? Kobe? Well, likes has little to do with it anyways. The Lakers is what butters their bread. They hyped Kobe.
Everyone always want to take away Kobe’s help to win and not give him help after the statement and want him to win. If you take away shaq give him Webber or Garnett or someone at least so he can compete. Take away one player from anyone else they losing too.
Being a Lakers fan from South TX, I was privileged enough to see these two NBA legends battle it out multiple times. In nearly every game I watched they would each somehow get a quiet 30 points. Both never failed to perform.
This was a great video and breakdown. I never really liked the comparison because of the different positions.
I just had to add context to a couple things.
Duncan
Rookie of the year
5 rings
3fmvps
2000 asg co mvp
Kobe
5 rings
2fmvps
2 scoring titles
Slam dunk champion
2 gold medals.
36-0 in fiba
2nd highest scoring game in nba history (81)
Numerous historic games&streaks
Only player in nba history 2 repeat without another 75 great
Most points ever in 3 consecutive playoffs runs (600+ points)
Most asg mvp (4x)
4th all time in scoring
I take nothing away from duncan.. but 1 thing i notice is he could never repeat & or defend his title.. they say repeating is the hardest thing to so... after winnin a title he would get bumped before the WCF sometimes... But lookin at kobe career how he was benched his 1st couple years, wasnt handed the green light, had to play ketchup amongst his peers. ( even tho he was better than most. Schick rookie game proved it) Everyone from coaches to media hatin him soon as he came into the league... but was part of the dynasty soon as he got the starting nod to the lakers.. then fell to the bottom. After shaq.. Then to be at the top again with goin to the finals 3 str8 years winning chips and defending it...... only player in history to repeat without a 75 great not only that and to win 2010 with a broken index finger on his shooting hand.. .that has to show kobe is not only the better player but the greater player than duncan..duncan bein part of a organization that had a system that always made playoffs and never failed.. duncan never had to face the adversity kobe did....Still take nothin away from duncans greatness. Duncan is the best power 4ward ever .. but if duncan wasnt on a team like the spurs would he have had the same success team wise ? Kobe showed wat he can do with shaq & without shaq. from winnin team accolades to even individuals accolades and accomplishments to team accomplishments again.
So Putting kobes 1st 3 years into context. The finals will always show shaq being the better player, but we have to talk about the opposition . Rik smits. Mutumbo todd mucullugh thats somethin the stats wouldnt show. . Besides the 00 finals where kobe got injured & that effected his overall stats he still put up mvp like numbers 01 & 02 bein the number 2 option.. Shaq just had monsterous numbers due to the fact he had the weaker comp @ his position.. I say that to say kobes impact was more shown on the way to the finals. if people look up the stats and watch the games..during those playoffs. Kobe was havin 48 & 16 against the spurs and kings at the age of 21.. avg 33 7 7 against the spurs. Just to name a few and the types of games he was having during those playoffs. kobes impact played a bigger roll & should get more looked into more during those playoffs. Not just the finals statistics prove it. Especially at the age he was.
1999-2004 playoffs
Kobe 26ppg
Shaq 27ppg
the nba finals dont tell the whole story for kobes case. It was the road to get there. Shaq wasnt avg that 38 and 16 on the way to the finals. Kobe took a back because shaq had the bbq according to him. Shaq also revealed recently kobe could have been the finals mvp but he sacraficed
When bringing up the first 3 seasons of MJ the following constantly gets left out: The Bulls won 11 more games in the rookie season of MJ than the previous season. MJ missed 66 games due to a foot injury in his 2nd season. During this timeframe, Charles Oakley was probably his 2nd best teammate.
In all honesty both players did amazing things and I think it’s unfair to compare players.
TD 10 - 5rings, 2mvps, 3fmvps
KB 8 - 5rings, 1mvps, 2fmvps
But Kobe got robbed of at least one MVP, if not two
@LukeFord-ns4bxless help? 😂 Kobe wasn’t even the best player on his own team for over half his rings that’s how much help he had 🤦♂️
@LukeFord-ns4bx dude Shaq is way more help than Duncan ever had he’s a top ten player ever ffs 🤦♂️ also Kobe lost to a team in the finals with zero top 75 players on it.
@LukeFord-ns4bx I never said he was carried. But he was the second best player on the team. You said he didn’t have help but Shaq is a top ten player of all time. I don’t think any all time great player has had a teammate as good as Shaq was when LA won those rings. And you say is Wade’s legacy affected by the two wins he won with Lebron James? no it isn’t. But I wouldn’t give him more credit for his three rings than say a guy like Larry Bird because Larry was the best player on the team.
@LukeFord-ns4bx Come on now. Shaq was a kid when he played with Penny. He was only 24 when he joined the Lakers. In 2000 Shaq was one vote away from unanimous MVP, the scoring champ, runner up for DPOY and put up 38/16 and 3 blocks on 60% shooting in the finals. Thats how much help he had. Shaq didn’t not need Kobe to win just give him any top 20 guy and they still win 🤦♂️
"The secret of basketball is that is has nothing to do with basketball" - Isiah Thomas. Duncan understood that from the jump and won 50 games every year of his career except the 99 lockout because they only played 50 games. Even won 50 games in a 66 game season in 2012.
@@kevinjohnson4498 it’s almost like management put a good team around him and to base your argument off winning team seasons is idiotic because of that point 😲
@0vern9K the Spurs win 50 games a year because of Duncan. If he's not there, they don't come close to winning 50 games.
@@bigred9991 naw fr? Nobody said that. But nobody is caring a team of bums or even average players to 50 wins every year in the west use your brain. Parker, ginobli, kurt Thomas, ascending and eventual star Kawahi, end of his prime David Robinson, Bruce Bowen, Robert horry, Marco Bellini, Danny green, stephon Jackson, Brent Barry, the spurs constantly had constructed rosters around him.
Without talent around Duncan the spurs aren’t winning 50 games either. Because it’s a team. Duncan consistently had great talent, kobe consistently? Did not.
@@bigred9991Lets be real, it was more of a team effort in his last 10 seasons.
@0vern9K every player you named, with the exception of David Robinson, which he only played with for 1 year, is dog shit without Duncan. Besides that, when did I say he did it by himself? Tony Parker was so good that Popovich was actively trying to trade him his first 5 years.
Kobe is and was better/greater but this take never upsets me because what I value in a player may not be what someone else values (I have immense respect for Duncan). I do have one issue with this video, context. I really don't like that you didn't talk about how the team, coach treated Kobe when he came into the league as a TEEN. Duncan was older and went to college. That matters. You had an entire section to explain Duncan's impact but didn't do something similar for Kobe and that's where I personally think you made a glaring omission in this video. Hakeem and Kobe also had some of the hardest runs to a title which I think is important to mention. Great work none the less! I'm gonna check out some more content.
Duncan was still just flat better early. Eagerness of college, team, coach or role. Duncan had his head screwed on from day 1, Kobe wouldn’t find himself until he was 30, and despite Duncan not even starting the game until he was 14, in year 1 he was All-NBA 1st team. Kobe came from basketball royalty and didn’t do that until year 6.
@@hardwoodthought1213 one I saw you mention college and how old he was when he started basketball ik you were about to say a bunch of empty ass words nothing
@@0vern9K Nothing empty about it
One started playing at 14. He played on an impoverished island. The other started playing at age 7. He grew up to millionaires
One was a leader and great man the moment he entered the NBA. The other wouldn’t be revered as a leader and teammate until he was 30.
One made All-NBA 1st team as a rookie. The other didn’t make it until his 6th season in the NBA.
Try again. Duncan was flat better early on. If he wasn’t, why was Kobe having to practice 10 hours a day and be revered because of it?
@@hardwoodthought1213Kobe was winning Game 7s of WCF and 2000 Finals pivotal game 4 in OT on 1 leg at the age Duncan was studying for Algebra and playing frisbee on the quad of Wake Forest
@@davis2k1234 And Duncan was leading a team to a title at age 23
Kobe didn’t lead a team to a playoff series win until he was almost 30 LMFAO
Duncan was All-NBA 1st team as a rookie. Kobe wouldn’t make that until year 6 LMFAO
This is a super good video! Great work, definitely looking forward to more from you
Tim had the best win percentage, followed by Manu and Tony
Don’t forget David Robinson and Kawhi Leonard
@shonrobinson1742 David was losing before Tim got there. As of now Kwahi has been off train. If I'm not mistaken David only played 2 years after Tim was drafted?
I didn’t enjoy this video.. I loved it! I’ve said the same thing for years but Kobe fans are too emotional and tend to shy away from facts. Informative video!
This is who you should be comparing Kobe to, not Jordan
Just finished the video and man was this a really biased video. “Kobe averaged near 28 ppg, but still struggling with his efficiency” while shooting 41%, but Duncan was “he averaged 18 10 while battling Ben Wallace and shot 42% from the field,” bro 42% for a post player is way worse efficiency than a guard shooting 41% lmao throwing your shoulder out of socket with all the reaching you did in this video 😂
My sentiments when I heard it too. From that point I knew how the video is going to end. He made excuse for Timmy all the way lol
Duncan and the Spurs won that series against Detroit tho. Kobe shot 38% against Detroit in the 04 Finals. If he was a smarter player then he should have kept feeding Shaq who shot 63% against Ben Wallace rather than forcing shots and trying to win Finals MVP.
Thank you
@@kabtown5631what about 2001 and 2002 🫵🏾🤭
@@kabtown5631 you watched the number you didn’t watch the game. The game has gone to shame after these analytics guys having folks like you talking with authority with numbers.
Loved this video man, always been a fan of that era in the NBA so I enjoyed this
This is a stupid comparison because kobe came into the league younger and less developed and had to be a bench player, kobe also wasnt blessed with having a consistently good roster like tim for his entire career and kobes injuries robbed him of from winning another ring
What do you mean kobe dont have good roster, 3/5 of his rings is playing with shaq
@@hungnao282 lol point is kobe wasn't fully developed for a few of those seasons
@@JM00237His own fault for coming out early. Duncan didn’t even start playing basketball until he was 14, by age 19 he was the universal number one pick in the draft, so clearly Duncan was just better naturally than Kobe who came from a basketball family
@@JM00237 well said bro, people just have tunnel vision
@@hardwoodthought1213 kobe was a better player Tim is just bigger, skillwise kobe is far superior. Tim might have a better IQ that's about it. Kobe was also forced to be a bench player because of the pecking order in the NBA at the time. Kobe had less help than Tim Duncan throughout his career as well.
"Just imagine Kobe never played with Shaq"
I think it's fair to say that Kobe between 08-10 had a similar amount of help that Duncan had throughout his career. Kobe made it to 3 finals in a row in perhaps the most competitive conference ever and won back to back rings. Duncan never did any of that despite having good to great help through 20 years. I think you're massively underestimating Kobe's impact on winning
Just look at their head to head matchups. Duncan always played great but Kobe was absolutely abusing him in the drop coverage. You mentioned Shaq winning finals MVPs but we all know that Lakers vs Spurs was the real finals and Kobe would have probably won the conference finals MVP that they do right now in both 01 and 02 with a peak Shaq
I love Timmy and always defended him against the doubters when he was playing but man he has been so over glorified after retirement to a point where we're just having contrarian takes about him
Tim is top 5 all time Kobe is top 10 it's that simple no hating on Kobe but he's not Tim
The Lakers became Kobe’s team from 04 after Shaq left. Then he was the bona fide main man on the team and was still only 25 which was several years younger than MJ and Lebron James were when they won their first rings and what happened? 2 rings in 12 years… yeah he was way more of a loser than a winner without Shaq
It’s fair to say from 98-2004 Kobe had more help, the fact that Duncan got not one but two series wins on a team of that magnitude helps his case more.
Between 08-10 kobe did not have as much help as Duncan that is fuckin laughable.
Those LA teams consisted of Pau and role players. Pau being a 1 time all star with a reputation for being soft. His softness was a reason for us getting whooped in 08. Kg was dogging him. Pau was great but kobe helped make him into a better player. Pau still had his issues as well he was playing so soft in the 2011 mavs series Phil had to punch him in the chest.
Outside of kobe an aging Derek fisher, Lamar Odom, 19-21 year old Bynum, Steve Blake, Adam Morrison, Luke Walton, MWP who a lot of teams didn’t want due to his antics his efficiency also fell off after joining LA, Shannon brown, Saha vujevic, D.J mbenga 💀. all role players.
To say they had similar help is again laughable. You give kobe 2 all stars instead of just pau there, la would probably be making deeper runs then what they did post 2010.
@@0vern9K you ain’t a fan clearly,
Pau was a better overall player than both Parker and Manu. Don’t confuse winning bias to legitimately being better. And getting dogged by KG isn’t the end of the world that you think it is. Every powerforward not named Tim Duncan got dogged by KG.
And i guess Duncan is better because he made Tony, Manu, and Bowens better players as all of them had nothing before Timmy. And unlike kobe, Tim’s lessons stuck with these players
MWP and Kobe created arguably the best set of wing defenders in the year 2010, a guy who took Kobe to 7 without T-Mac and half of Yao while Kobe had Pau and Phil, but now he’s a problem? Also he flat out said Cleveland or LA or Houston were his only options. But hey down play Kobe’s teammates.
Fine take 37 year old Bruce bownes, take at this point two all star and 1x all star Tony and Manu let’s see him take them anywhere. If only Kobe was given a player who won dpoy 3x in a row and a former mvp on his roster while still keeping Pau and Artest
I love the 2000s kobe, Dirk, Ducan, Garnett, Young Lebron and Wade.
Tim and he should have had 6, kobe never had a chance at 6
This guy that did this video is
a Kobe hater
Duncan was better than kobe, but he was gotten beaten by Argentina and spain in the Olympics
He retired from the Olympics shamefully, wuth a third medal until kobe came to save them wuth the dream team 😂😂
The joke is on you
Why didn’t Kobe play until he was damn near 30? Only 2 current All-Stars went in 04. Kobe waited until they had 8 current All-Stars before he was brave enough to go 😂😂😂 and still barely beat a Spanish team with 3 NBA level players 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@hardwoodthought1213 Okay? Overseas they bring their A-game, the best, all or nothing. They go crazy. It’s the USA that claims to be the best in the world, when it should be best in the USA. You making it sound like the Euro league is a joke, clearly you’ve never watched a full euro game in your life or you wouldn’t have said what you just said.
@@okoliestephen7311 know why Kobe wasn't on that Olympic team in 2003? He was fighting his rape charge. More games won, more MVP's, more Finals MVP's,, made the "All NBA Team, and the All Star team on his way to winning Rookie of the Year. Come on, now. Anybody who knows basketball picks Duncan over Kobe, like they pick Larry Bird over LeBron James.
@@MrArtdelgado210 Whilet Duncan is 100% over Kobe, LBJ is clearly over Bird.
More MVPs titles, FMVPs, All-NBA, All-NBA 1st teams, All-Defensive teams, All-Stars, ROTY, basic and advanced stats
@@hardwoodthought1213 I'll stick with Larry all day, every day. Michael Jordan thinks the same thing, has said so on multiple occasions, and it's not about points scored, longevity, or records. Pat Riley said it best.
"Iif I had to choose a player. to take a shot to save a game, I choose Michael Jordan. If I had to choose a player to take a shot. to save my life, I'd take Larry Bird."
Jordan said Larry Bird is the best small forward to ever play the game of basketball. He's on Jordan's starting 5 of all time. Study Larry, so you can see what Jordan and so many othets see.
19:29 you better keep this energy w curry and KD
wdym
Duncan my fav,i remember his 05 duel,so great.My fav finals
I love Duncan bro
Im a spurs fan
But bro Kobe was a little above our Duncan
Did you not watch the end of the video? Typical causal. You're not a die hard Spurs fan.
Thank you finally sum1 that doesn't try down Kobe like most Kobe haters today they started dropping him alltime rankings right around 2015
@oronasundial so if u a due hard fan u gotta lie?? And not go with the eye test or what the consensus was while they were in they prime??
@@oronasundialhe’s not a casual he didn’t even say anything stop throwing that word around if you ain’t gone use it correctly
@@terricarter9435 Not a lie Duncun is better he's 5-1 ,Kobe missed the playoffs and is 5-2 Jesus, once again did you fool's even watch the end of the video? Lol...
This is the best and most complete version of this argument I've ever seen. You earned a sub from me
I think the problem is we’re constantly talking about who’s better instead of giving players their flowers on their accomplishments which is why some guys are forgotten they both are great players and two different positions
I talk about it. Duncan>
Part of why I have Lebron and Kobe over Jordan is because 2000- 2015 was loaded with NBA legends like Duncan, KD, and Dirk in their prime.
You lost me when you said Kobe>MJ
@@ckthegreat100 ok
@@flight_knight_ The 80s and 90s also had NBA legends as well.
@@syzorst of course
@flight_knight_ So how is Lebron and Kobe over Jordan when all 3 played in an era of legends?
Lol he said Duncan had the more efficient true shooting percentage, lol it was only .1 percent better and he averaged 6 more points, if not for the 3 post Achilles tare years Kobes true shooting percentage would be way higher..
Tim duncan 50% Kobe 44% FG
@@iii898iii FG percentage is not efficiency. Example: Player A takes 10 shots and goes 5/10 but they are all 2s so he scores 10 points on 10 shots but its a 50% FG percentage. Player B takes 9 shots and goes 4/9 but they are all 3s so he scores 12 points on 9 shots but its 44% FG percentage. Player B just scored more points on less shots than Player A so Player B was MORE efficient with a lower FG percentage. That's why FG percentage doesn't matter, it doesn't measure efficiency, True Shooting percentage does..
@@marlowstanfield6815imagine thinking fg percent doesn’t matter. Kobe stans came up wit that bullshit😂😂😂
@@jasonmoukala8909 You just talking, come with a sensible argument. 4/9 shooting all 3s is a 44% fg percentage scoring 12 points on 9 shots, 5/10 shooting all 2s is a 50% fg percentage scoring 10 points on 10 shots which is LESS efficient. Which one is more efficient? FG percentage doesn't matter. You have no rebuttal...
@@jasonmoukala8909 "FG percentage is what matters" why when it doesn't measure efficiency? "Because I hate Kobe and I said so" What facts do you have to back that up? "Imagine thinking fg percentage doesn't matter, Kobe stans bs bla blah blah" Okay but I gave you facts? "I DON'T CARE, IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE I HATE KOBE". Kobe haters rational is hilarious 😂😂🤣😂😂😂😭😭😭😭😭😭
Duncan was the better and more consistent player. Also, brought a lot less drama to a team, and didn't feel the need to be an a$$hole to his teammates...like Kobe chose to be. Both great players, but Duncan was better.
No he was not the better player u mean he had the better consistent team and still never repeated a feat Kobe did twice
Can’t give it to Timmy never led a team on his own had 2 other teammates win finals mvp possibly 3/4 HOFs teammates that was their for a career meanwhile Kobe beat them in the playoffs a few times with no other allstar plus his record against Timmy without the supporting cast like Timmy so the numbers don’t mean nothing
Feel free to go look at what Duncan did in 2003, then come back talking about never won on his own 😂😂😂😂 didn’t even have a current All-Star teammate and still won. Kobe never won unless Shaq or Pau made All-NBA that season
Try again.
Better player Kobe Better overall player and career TIM
Probably because neither of them belong in the GOAT debate.. and their similarities are pretty superficial.
You left off the Mavericks having 11 or 12 straight 50 win seasons
"greatness refers to the basketball legacy you left behind" - Kobe's legacy and influence on basketball is scales of magnitude bigger than Duncan
"better refers to your skills, abilities, and *natural talents*" - this seems to fit Duncan far better in my opinion
They should have been switched
22:20 Duncan didn't have to dominate anything. He had most stable team coach gm ever. Spurs kept winning wo him w klaw la Green lol.
Kobe peak was w no help. Timmy never lacked help lol. Kobe in 08 failing was more valuable than Timmy 3 rings winning lol. You didn't say that did you
Did Tim scare away his help his entire career? Lol not hating Kobe but he was kinda an ass to everyone and he lost a lot of players because of his attitude and pride
@@krash22mini72 you all said Kobe couldn't win wo Shaq stupid. Only superstar who tried to prove critics wrong
@@rockysalvatore435 I honestly have no idea what you said or how to respond but I know I didn't say anything about Shaq
@@krash22mini72 you're a lying loser. Kobe didn't scare away Shaq. You all forced him to give him up! Never did that to MJ w pip and Kobe had a tougher conference
Timmy will always be greater. And I do think Kobe is the greatest Laker ever.
Suggestion: Jerry West vs Oscar Robertson
They don’t compare them because if they do they have no leverage to criticize Lebron
Duncan never won back to back.
2004 olympic bronze medal.
Kobe always killed duncan spurs.
End of debate
Kobe never won b2b mvp's and Ducan has more fmvp's
@@ameyt9319 Kobe wins more vs Duncan in the playoffs. 3peat and back to back champ is Better than duncan's back to back REGULAR Season MVP. 2000 to 2010 Kobe - 7 Finals winning 5 Rings, Player of the Decade! FYI Duncan is the real leader of the 2004 usa olympic team that he help to a bronze! Bronze medal. Kobe help 08 usa olympic team back to Gold medal.
@@johnchavez1947 Kobe lost 2 finals and only 3peated with Shaq
People don’t really have this debate because Kobe fans want to shoehorn him into a goat debate he doesn’t belong in, while Tim Duncan fans are asking we appreciate Tim Duncan as an upper echelon all time great at all.
Two completely different positions, i hate the goat debate. If you wanna decide a goat there should be 5 one for each position.
No one talks about Vince Carter how he had ups like kemp and tmac.
MJ, kobe,Carter, than James.
Duncan ain't better than bird and magic, can't touch Iverson. Let's get real he can't touch those guys let alone Barkley, or grant hill and Reggie miller
Carter would be a better argument. But even Carter loves Kobe and that's why I think Carter is better than LeBron.
There’s only one way to judge this. Who is more awesome by the end of their career? That’s the answer.
Tim Duncan is better constant winner. Plus it's actually 3-4 in the playoffs the entire Spurs vs Lakers from '99-'13 '04 could've gone either way had fishers shot not counted. Plus Kobe wasn't going win in '13 even if was healthy. On top of Spurs never missing the playoffs. My Spurs we're 28 seconds from being 6-0 In the finals like the bull's. Even though 5-1 is incredible still.
The bias in this statement is insane. Plus we can't say the lakers wouldn't have won in 2013. If you have Kobe, Dwight, Nash and Pau all playing, the Lakers definitly had a real chance.
@@oronasundial this reeks of bias and nonsense.
@@0vern9KReeks of Facts too. Explain with number's and results how it's wrong to a team that never missed the playoffs.
@@silvershadow8405if healthy...maybe. but bro...I have to ask where you around as a full grown adult at the time in 2013? I was and if you we're you would know those Lakers had zero chemistry they had Nash in his last year's and just couldn't stay healthy. Sorry Kobe alone can't beat the Kawi Spurs. Especially during that time.
@@silvershadow8405 even before Lebron joined the Heat, he started consistently getting the better of Kobe in his later Cavs years. The Heat vs Lakers were a different beast altogether. On the other hand, the Spurs were the perfect counter to the Heat's style of play.
Kobe was a big reason why they won the 3 straight championships. And the reason he didn't win 1 finals MVP was because the East didn't have any great Centers. Kobe dominated in the playoffs with great big men and great defensive guards in the West
I have Kobe slightly ahead by a fraction but Both are Fathers of LeBalco
Excellent Video!
The biggest claim to being the best ever for Kobe and Duncan is that they won the most during the most competitive era of the league in the most competitive conference in the history of the league
Duncan was the better player . More regular season Mvps, more Finals Mvps, and a better finals record 5-1 . Made the playoffs ever year, and had a winning road record. Nuff said
NOBODY is saying "Timmy" when they shoot a shot.... for that reason alone saying Duncan is "Greater" is a JOKE!!!
I’ll take Kobe over Duncan
Your videos are top tier, keep grinding man, you’ll blow up soon.
@@Joshbecky allahhuakbar
@@Joshbecky no there not Duncan ain’t better then no Kobe even when they were in the leauge this wasn’t no convo after 2006
TD is in my top 10. Kobe is #14 on the same tier with Bird and Dr J.
if this 2 teams are in different conference, they will meet in the final for 10yrs+.
They really gifted 3 straight undeserved allstars to kobe at the end of his career
Who says if they don't get Shaq, LA doesn't get someone else and Kobe still wins(maybe not 3) and has more fmvps
Also in 2000 Kobe got injured
"Duncan had to dominate ever since he got in the league" You showed three sub 20 point playoff performances where someone else won the fmvp in two of them
If Kobe had Pau instead of Shaq from day 1 he’s still winning 5+ if not more. And without a torn Achilles he would have almost as many points as Kareem.
LOL no he wouldn't
no 😂
This is an extremely difficult debate to have because both players obviously played very different positions but they both had great success.
Only thing that both players were extremely similar, is their leadership & their amazing commitment to win.
In my personal opinion for them is...
Both KOBE BRYANT & Tim Duncan are 2 of the greatest players ever. Easily both in the top 20.
Their leadership is nothing alike. Duncan is the greatest leader since Russel and best teammate ever, Kobe was a shitty leader and teammate bar his later title years
The debate ended when Duncan led team USA to a Bronze in 2004.
Nope. He had only 1 other current All-Star with him in AI. Rest were role players and rookies.
Kobe waited until he was in year 12 when the team had 8 other CURRENT All-Stars before he went and played 😂😂😂 and despite that still barely beat Spain
@@hardwoodthought1213Jesus stop the excuses.
@@0vern9K Context isn’t an excuse. In 2008 Team USA had 9 CURRENT All-Stars and barely beat a Spain team who had 3 NBA level players, so why should a team with 2 CURRENT All-Stars and a coach who was sabotaging the team be expected to beat Argentina who has the same as Spain? Explain that?
So Kobes excuse for losing with super teams in 1998, 2004 and 2013 is what?
Kobes excuse for missing the playoffs 4 times in his career is what?
Kobes excuse for blowing a 3-1 lead is what?
Kobes excuse for winning 1 MVP in 20 seasons is what?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Because they had Tim Duncan leading them. yall kill me bro y’all rave and thrive about Duncan’s leadership, unselfishness and all this power of team work😭, but the minute that’s supposed to shine. In the Olympic Games where chemistry is key for a bunch of guys who’ve never played together that shit ain’t matter or show up. Now it’s he didn’t have enough help. The nba is the best league in the world don’t matter if the guys weren’t superstars or a bunch of all stars still solid nba guys. And kobe can’t control who is and isn’t an all star on the roster 💀
1998 and 2004 and 2013 weren’t super teams💀. A super team is 2 top 5 players and an all nba level player which no kobe team ever had.
Making the playoffs is a team feat it isn’t 1v5 kobe had a poor team some seasons. And in 05 they were on track for the playoffs until kobe missed a month of action with a ankle sprain. And don’t say “ so did Duncan “ can’t compare Olympic game rosters to regular season nba teams
You mean the year they were the 7 seed and played the suns? Again I repeat were the 7TH seed and played THE SUNS. 😂😂.
And your talking about MVPs idc for those there media voted awards ran by politics. Only ppl that put all that weight in those are casuals.
@@0vern9K Chemistry is important? If that’s the case, again how was USA expected to win when every other top 15 player bar Duncan backed out last minute out of fear of terrorism? Leaving Duncan a bunch of head cases and rookies and a coach who demanded they win a team game without having ever played as a team? You’ve exactly proved why they lost. Where was Kobe in 04? Or Shaq? Or Carter? Or KG? Or McGrady? Or Pierce?
1998 LA had FOUR CURRENT All-Stars. They got swept. In 2004, they had 4 of the 40 greatest players ever and got trounced. In 2013, they had 2 CURRENT top 5 players in Kobe and Howard, Nash who was an All-Star in 2012, Pau who has All-NBA in 2011, and MWP. They were a 9 seed until Kobe got hurt 😂😂😂😂
In 2005, LA were on a 31 win pace in the 16 games Kobe missed. They won 34, so Kobe added 3 wins value 😂😂😂
In 2006, Phoenix were missing Amare and Joe Johnson. They lost because Kobe became selfish. In the 3 wins v Phoenix, Kobe didn’t lead his own team in scoring once, but now he had no help?
kobe didn’t get phil jackson until his 3rd season in the league. he couldn’t come out and dominate cuz the head coach at the time was too stuck on byron scott🤣 u gotta think about situations bro, duncan came into a mediocre spurts team, of course he’s gonna have to produce more. kobe came into an already good lakers team, so he has to prove that he can get that starting position. he did that AND WON 3 finals as THE CLOSER in 3 consecutive finals. Shaw might’ve BEEN the number one option, but kobe imprinted himself into that team. u also have to remember that duncan had THE GREATEST coach of all time in his corner.
kobe’s OBJECTIVELY better than duncan, no question. the fact that this is even a debate is crazy. put kobe with a perfect supporting cast around him like timmy had from the get go and kobe is OBJECTIVELY the GOAT. kobe in 2008-2010 had a team that wasn’t even ALL that good, but was a GREAT supporting cast for him, and he was the BEST basketball player on the court no matter who he played. duncan is not greater, nor better than kobe.
there shouldn’t be debates about kobe being less than anything other than top 3 all time. if he’s compared to anybody OTHER than lebron or jordan, then whoever is starting the debate needs to just end the conversation… kobe is NO LESS than top 3. duncan prolly 8th. (jordan, kobe, bron are interchangeably 1-3, however u wanna put them) kareem, shaq, magic, bird, hakeem, wilt, timmy and then bill russel soon after.
timmy definitely great, but he’s not in that ELITE top 3 company great, like kobe is…. let’s get serious guys.
You forget most ppl here are causals just going off stats and resumes with 0 context lol.
And Kobe proved he deserved to start when he airballed against pacers when he was starting out? And the year when the lakers won their first title, Shaq won mvp and had the best season of his entire career, Phil Jackson was head coach, and Kobe didn’t have to every worry about being guarded by the teams best player (unless it was a forward or guard) because the other teams entire defensive plan was against Shaq not Kobe. Duncan put more production then Kobe in his early years showing he can lead the team right off the bat, and not only that but be the reason they won all while being the leader and if you check their stats Duncan>kobe per 100 possessions bro he just didn’t have to because Duncan’s ball was all about team and winning, Kobe’s was about himself and winning. Duncan>Kobe bro it’s ok
You forgetting he wasn't even top of his class? you wanted him to start over Eddie Jones? Kobe fans are youngster who doesn't know sht. YEs kobe work ethic was insane, thats what made him great. But lets not act like he was a starter in his first 3 seasons
The guy on the video totally isn't bias he showed you ALL the facts right there. Are most of the hardcore nba fans like myself biased also for Duncan? The least liked player on the least liked team my Spurs? I don't think so...c'mon now. I always put Kobe ahead of lerbron and i put duncun ahead of Kobe and Jordan above them all.
Kobe has the love of hyper casuals because of his low efficiency, low team play, low win generating bulk scoring. If he didn’t fit the 1 and only archetype that those casual fans have appreciation for Duncan would win 10/10 times. As it stands Duncan is still dramatically better. But the popular vote goes to Kobe
@@willemcenter8649 ironic because Duncan is not really efficient scorer for his position.
@@anryXcurse not ironic, a straw man at best. Duncan is still efficient and Kobe is still inefficient. Duncan is also an insanely underrated defender and Kobe a notable overrated defender.
@@willemcenter8649 Kobe actually efficient and better scorer than Duncan and their head to head matchups in playoffs can show you how Kobe outplayed Duncan.
@@anryXcurse not even remotely correct. Kobe is a negative on offense from 2 and 3. He is a turnover machine unless he is jacking up shots - which are inefficient - and never once carried the Lakers. The head to head with Duncan doesnt matter because Duncan was the most productive player on 4/5 of his rings. Kobe on 0/5. Keep choking on his meat though
@@willemcenter8649 hahahaha nice try troll.
Fun fact Duncan and Kobe have the same career TS (true shooting%)
Duncan was not really Efficient scorer for his position. But nice try troll. You're clearly a hater who doesn't even have NBA knowledge.
If you were in the west between 1999-2014, it was nearly impossible to win or even get to the finals with these 2 around...10 combined championships in 16 seasons...not counting the 3 additional combined finals losses.....
That left just 3 seasons open for other west teams to get in there which dallas and okc did
It’s not a debate. Tim slightly better than Kobe on defense and Kobe is substantially better than Tim on offense.
The better debate is Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe clears but it’s a better debate
Tim Duncan have a stable organization and a Hall of Fame coach for his whole career
Right like Kobe didn't have a top 10 all time great player for 7 years (Shaq) and an all time great coach in Phil Jackson.
@@syzorst yeah and about 5 or 6 of kobes career he had no hof head coach. So your comment is irrelevant
@@t.g.8471Because Duncan is the most consistent superstar ever and Kobe one of the least consistent
Is it LA or SA who won without their star player? Is it Jackson or Pop who won without their star player?
@t.g.8471 He won 5 championships with that Hall of fame coach did he not? Okay then.
@@syzorst are you not comprehending my message. Kobe played 20 years. He had Phil for like 6 of those years. Duncan had Pop his whole career. Smh
The fact anyone thinks this is a debate is insane, Duncan is phenomenal, but his absolute peak was short, and not as good as Kobe’s. Duncan got back packed to his last ring.
check those stats because he was definitely not carried by Kawhi
@@iii898iii not by Kawahi everyone as a group. 2014 Duncan wasn’t the best 2nd I’d argue even 3rd best player player that year
Duncan > Kobe
Kobe carried by Shaq for 3 championship. He only earned 2 rings as the best player of his team.
@@satanicskater8136 Jesus your a casual
@@0vern9K Im casual coz i hurt your feeling for telling the truth?
Okay. lol
Duncan vs Hakeem should be next.
Both Kobe and Duncan have %55 True Shooting so overall they were equally as efficient.
Kobe's true shooting dropped in his final years
@@TK-ev You are 100% right
@@TK-ev all of his percentages dropped because of those last 3 seasons
bro's acting like parker and manu are superstars. Neither of them ever made all nba 1st team and made a few all-stars. Kobe on the other hand had Shaq
Yet Parker managed to win a Finals MVP.
Btw Duncan had Leonard and Robinson, so he had his share of top 75 players on his titles...
@@scottb3034 leonard was young and Admiral was past his prime. Context matters. I could say Kobe had Shaq, Payton, Malone, Nash and Howard, who are all nba 75 level (Howard was definately snubbed) That's still way more 75 teammates.
Tony Parker is a great player, and so is Manu. But 1 fmvp doesn't say that much. Andre Iguodala has 1fmvp and he's not a superstar
And Pau Gasol was All NBA 09-11. Kobe had an All NBA teammate for every title. Parker was All NBA for the 2014 title but thats it.
@@kevinjohnson4498 Jesus your a casual. All nba teams are ran by position just cause you didn’t make it doesn’t mean you didn’t play at that level your position could just be fuckin loaded.
Pau was making an all nba teams but in regards to ginobli and Parker paus a foward. The forward and big spots were weak compared to guards. Ginobli competing with Kobe, D Wade, TMac, and parker competing with prime CP3, Steve nash, and D will back when it was a convo who was the best PG between him and paul. You can’t compare them or say paus better simply because of all nba teams casual
@@LeKy-yd2zj yea talk about context but leave all of it out when regarding kobe. Duncan sucking you off or sum cause the bias is crazy.
Payton was 35 in his 14th season. malone was 40 In his LAST season, and playing with injuries a ton he only played 42 games.
Nash and Dwight? Nash was old as dirt on LA 38 and 39 and was 2 seasons away from retirement when he joined LA, Dwight had back surgery the offseason prior to joining LA, that he rushed back to play from not fully healthy. He said so himself in interviews. Dwight in LA was not Orlando Dwight neither was he when he joined harden, the hawks, or the hornets.
Leonard was young but he was ascending he made all nba defensive team in 2014 then the year after won dpoy. He won with an ASCENDING Kawahi. Admiral was not past his prime he was right at the end. When they won in 99 during a lockout btw he was 34. For comparison Gary like you mentioned was 35.
Yes winning finals mvp doesn’t make you a superstar but your just blindly saying that. Comparing Tony’s and iggys finals MVPs are laughable. If you watched that GS series iggy wasn’t clamping bron they just doubled his ass and stats were giving iggy credit for brons missess as the primary defender curry was the finals mvp everyone knows this.
In 07 Duncan had his worst finals of his life the Cavs front court was harassing him making him shoot 44% as a center which is awful. Tony Parker doesn’t step up and take over like he did the spurs don’t win that series. Winning finals mvp don’t make you a SS but clearly you have the skill to play at that level in Tony’s case which he did casual.
Duncan had more constant help then kobe. And shaq? He played with shaq for the majority of his younger years not his prime. He didn’t play with shaq all 20 years, in his prime how some of you act. And after 2000 he was performing just as good as shaq in the regular season. Just the playoffs and finals are about miss matches and shaq is huge
14:00 It also shows that Kobe didn't win in 09 and 10 by himself like Kobe fans like to argue. Pau Gasol and a team of good role players made for a solid team on their own, which Pau had already proved in Memphis as the best player surrounded by good roles players like Mike Miller, Shane Battier, and James Posey.
Gasol before Kobe had 1 all star appearance, 0 all nba teams and 0 playoff career wins in 7 seasons.
Gasol with Kobe had 3 all star appearances, 3 all nba teams, 55 playoff wins and 2 rings over 5 seasons
When Kobe had worse teammates than you listed for Gasol’s years in Memphis (from 05-07) Kobe still won 4 playoff games and was all nba first team, all nba defensive first team and named all star starter each season
@@davechhabra617And yet, it took Pau as an All-NBA player for Kobe to win.
Duncan won 4 titles without a current All-NBA teammate
@@hardwoodthought1213 Kobe elevated Pau into that player, as illustrated above.
It took Duncan having Parker and Ginobili making all star teams during his championship seasons (not to mention to mention Parker winning a finals MVP), along with Bowen making all defensive teams perennially
How do you compare a sg and a pf? The shot selection is completely different! In the big man era centers and powerf are catching the ball either for a dunk lay up or a 6 foot jump shot! Shooters are normally 10 ft +away! Stats don't say kobe was dealing with a career ending injury! And it doesn't show that he is number 2 in 4th quarter points scored! Guess who's number one?
I give an edge to Kobe. He’s gone through media scrutiny after his scandal and feud with shaq. NBA media tried to bring him down, but he focussed on his craft and saved his reputation. He’s gone through hell to achieve this. Tim Duncan while consistent, he plays with a system and was never really a vocal person and wasn’t under high media scrutiny. Not to mention Kobe was the bigger icon and have greater basketball cultural impact
So Kobe gets praised for being a terrible human being?
Duncan was the leader of the teams every teammate he had said so. Man has a whole chapter on him in a book on sports leadership, Kobe meanwhile was a disaster as a leader outside 07-11
@@hardwoodthought1213 people overcoming obstacles, gotta respect that. Also even at work those are the ones who usually get promotions, not the consistent workers, if you think about it
@@chief8268 Also the ones likely to get fired
But the difference isn’t Duncan being a B- leader for 20 years with Kobe being A+ for 10 and C for 10, it’s Duncan being A+ for 20 years, Kobe being an F for 15 and a B+ for 5.
As leaders and teammates they aren’t comparable or close
@@hardwoodthought1213 Tim Duncan isn’t even a leader, I hate to say this. Pop is the leader. Tim barely even talked.
@@chief8268 Sure. And yet, virtually every teammate who ever played with Duncan said he was the best teammate AND leader they ever had. So that dispels everything you just said instantly.
Pop was a hard coach. And Duncan’s character and leadership allowed him to be coached hard, which meant everyone could be coached hard because the teams best player was. That isn’t ‘leadership’. Since Duncan, how has Pops leadership looked?
Duncan was the one who led by example and offered comfort for his teammates. It’s a form of leadership that dudes as wide ranging as Stephen Jackson (weed head and villain), Robinson (Christian military man), Parker (French rapper), Brent Barry (ultimate student of the game) have all attested to. Steve Kerr played with MJ and he does nothing but heap praise on how Duncan was. There’s a story he tells of 2003 where for training camp Duncan stayed in a hotel with the team. He and Danny Ferry asked why he was, he was MVP of the league he could have gone home but he stayed to grow a team culture.
And the kicker here is that not only have the vast majority of teammates confirmed he was the above in addition to being the reason the Spurs had a culture, he also hasn’t a SINGLE teammate who has ever questioned his character, or leadership or style.
Kobe from 07-11 was a really great leader. Dudes like Gasol and Fisher wax poetic on it, and watching it as I did it’s clear Kobe figured out how to lead.
With that said, that’s 4 or 5 years. Before and after he was the opposite. He has DOZENS of teammates, coaches, GMs, parents, concubines dismantle his character and style.
You’re of the elk clearly who thinks ‘leader’ means screams at teammates, works hard and takes glory. Duncan (and to a lesser extent Steph) prove the opposite.
When Kobe has a chapter written on him in a book on sports leadership, I’ll listen. When his coach of 20 years claims his entire success was down to drafting him and not dying, and breaking down in literal tears over the fact that Duncan entered the league the same man he did when he left, I’ll listen.
Try again. You haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Kobe is greater than Duncan in many things. Leading men isn’t one of them
peak goes to duncan and just stats don’t show everything. tim is a t3 defender ever and that isn’t shown in stats
Duncan all day every day over Kobe.
The biggest travesty is in your intro, that Mike and Lebron is debated so much, it shouldn’t even be a conversation
Tim wins he almost beat the miami big three in 2013 and won them in 2014 Tim Duncan was 37 in 2013 and 38 in 2014
In my opinion duncan is the goat one ray allen fluke shot away from also being 6-0
@@btradaxking5924 he also choked game 7
@@rockysalvatore435 6 over 15 years and would have repeated once instead of 4 times....and would not have been Finals MVP in half of the series....some GOAT.
@@rockysalvatore435 doesn't matter still the goat
Kobe was great , but Duncan was on another level 😊
I am a huge Timmy fan but Kobe . Few issues with the logic ,Kobe was 18 year old so no way he was taking control of team with a prime Shaq and his first couple of years was "learning on the job" and he did his part by playing well enough to prove he was. As you said The rosters were some bad years but it wasn't Kobe's fault. He wanted Shaq to work a bit more on his body , Kobe was being a leader and Shaq didn't care ( I love Shaq and not taking shots) enough and wanted out. Kobe didn't bend and wanted to play the right way or re-build. Kobe was more up and down and had some high volume years that his % dipped but his ceiling was higher.
The issue with Timmy is it's bit like the "Brady or Bill" debate with The NFL goat talk , Timmy had one of if not the the best NBA HC's , Robinson was the prefect role model and someone that I know would have worked with Timmy , nothing wrong with this and Tim was going to be great with or without , then the Spurs roster , having a core group where for most of the time maybe 1 core player would change per a season or two , basically Timmy will be very hard to place not because of his non flashy play but because it's hard to say , was it the way the roster was built or Timmy that was winning , it was both but when your talking about this top tier of a list it's tiny things to pick from with no real wrong answers. The other issue is that if Timmy is ahead of Kobe that means all-time as well and with LeBron stock going down , you would also have to say Tim was at worst 5th best player to a ton of people/fans. good idea for a video though.
Kobe wasn’t being a leader fuck you taking about 😂
KOBE
Not to hate but the first two minutes sound exactly like jxmy high rollers goat debate video😭
When kobe was a rookie he and Tim did a sprite commercial together.
Didn’t Duncan have Robinson??? Put some respect on that man’s name! 12:55 13:08
It’s no debate TD never repeated and always had better teams simple
Tim Duncan always had better teams? I don't recall Tim playing with someone as great as prime Shaq.
@@syzorst true but Kobe was a just as good 2nd option, no he didn’t have prime Shaq but he always had good teams for the most part..I said TEAMS not sidekick. TD wasnt the best player on all his chips neither Parker got a fmvp, Robinson old but still effective, Manu was cold af for years and ofc Kawhi. Kobe had a mean dry spell after Shaq left came back repeated with 2 fmvps
Best TEAM player I’m going with TD all day but individually it’s Kobe no debate and I might be wrong and have to fact check myself but I think he played more competition at his position for longer than TD after Webber and KG it get a little murky but like I said gotta fact check myself in case I forgot something
Another thing y’all glaze Shaq but forgot he didn’t do shit til he got Kobe and he had PLNETY help before 2000
@qdontae6 Kobe played with Shaq for 7 years. That a large chuck of time. In 2003, Tim Duncan beat the Kobe and Shaq Lakers with a rookie Manu Genobli and second year Tony Parker. On top of that, in the late 2000s, he had Pau Gasol so let's look at that team overall. Kobe had the best front court in the league with Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum and the best rotation player in Lamar Odom. David Robinson after 1999 was a shell of himself because of injuries. Even if you want to say Tony Parker was better than Tim Duncan in 07 (which I don't think he was) simply because of a fmvp than that doesn't matter because Tim Duncan was the best player in 3 out of 5 od his championships, hence the 3 fmvps while Kobe only has 2.
Shaq not winning a championship before Kobe doesn't change the fact he was easily a top 3 player in the league by the time Kobe was drafted. He was definitely better than David Robinson by 1998.
@@syzorst bruh Kobe wasn’t shit the first few years with Shaq he had 2 all stars in LA before Kobe got right and Penny in Orlando and ain’t do shit..I love Shaq and he unstoppable but cmon now he wasn’t a 1 man army, TD could lead teams better than Shaq. Robinson I said was old but homie was still putting up 16 and 10 in the lockout year and 18 and 10 the next. And when it comes to Pau he nowhere near TD or Shaq level he wasn’t even better than prime Chris Webber ppl need to stop that bs like Pau was the best PF in the league before LA 🤣
And Shaq might’ve been a top 3 player but don’t mean shit if u always getting beat with 2 other all stars on that team that says a lot more about Kobe value and as for Parker oh well, he won it whether he better overall or not he played good af in 2007 and out score TD and Queen James that series
@qdontae6 What does Kobe not being shit for the first few years have to with anything? Did Kobe play with Shaq for a few years or 7 years? Last I checked, Shaq left the Lakers after 04 by which Kobe was already a great player by 2000 onward. The fact remains is Kobe had a prime Shaq for several years. Shaq not winning a championship before 2000 doesn't change the fact he was a top 3 player in the league but if it makes you feel better, Shaq won a championship in 2006 in Miami so he proved he could win without Kobe. 😮💨
David Robinson wasn't only old but a shell of himself because of injuries. Comparing that version of David Robinson to a prime Shaq is a joke. You bring up Chris Webber but by 2007-2008 when Pau Gasol was traded to the Lakers, how good was Chris Webber by that point? Oh yeah that's right, it was his last year in the league avg 4ppg and 3 rebounds 🤣🤣🤣.