Favorite first test for anything going through the laser cutters: The flame test.. Take some copper wire, get it to red hot in a flame, stick it in the material then back in the flame until it glows again. If the flame is green, it includes a halide (Clorhine/flurine/bromide) and IS NOT SAFE.. Good fast first pass tesing.
Uhh? You do know that copper creates a blue/green flame effect right? Which kind of makes your test inaccurate. Steel wire would be far better for a color test.
@@ganjasage420 The test is for halides, not for copper. Copper wire in a flame produces no colour but it's salts do. When the wire is heated the halides attack the copper and copper ions that then make the flame green. Without them you get an orange flame of burning carbon.
This video right here is why I love your content. Your message about safety on the tech we use for our hobbies is priceless. Thank you so much and keep doing what you do!!
@@priceisalr1ght This is the first thing I thought when I saw this. They removed dislikes. Added a new feature to pay to advertise in the comments. TH-cam is going to shit more and more every minute
My first job out of college was writing testing software for a medical laser company and it was ALARMING how complacent people get around invisible lasers, even the optics safety guy gave me a hard time when I came asking for the right wavelength protection goggles, most people didn't even wear goggles when testing the lasers
I work in a sheet stainless steel fabrication factory, we use laser welding for it's pretty finish and a 2500W CNC cutter ... The sheer disregard the staff show for eye safety is terrifying... It's a shiny metal! It has to reflect some of that 2500w death beam! The cnc producer put a see though door so you won't have to open it! ... And rhe fucking welders! The welder can literally melt steel, and the handle looks like a gun!
I also worked at medical device company making lasers for orthopedic surgery. The lasers were Nd:YAG, which produce a wavelength that is not visible, bounces off walls and is especially damaging to eye tissue. And the tissue damage is cumulative. The manufacturing and test area had safety curtains for the welding bays, which everyone was good about, and safety curtains for the laser testing, which were often ignored, probably because it was not visible. I was laughed at by the engineers (who should know better) when I asked about eye protection. "It's there in the cabinet, but nobody bothers." Those guys are all probably blind now or wearing inch-thick glasses.
@@mememan2344 You know about the saying "When you make something idiot proof, the world makes a better idiot"? Yeah. It's annoying indeed. The work safety classes in engineering make you give up any hope on the people you might be working with or working for you. The several mincemeat photos when people decide to take shortcuts in their work and bypass safety devices should make it obvious but the worker will still jam a plank of wood on the dead man switch to be able to stick a hand on the moving machine.
I've had the same reaction to seeing these lasers being sold. In a lab setting lasers that powerful in an open system like that would require a special room with a kill switch on the door that turned it off if anyone walked in. Ads showing them being used in a room with pets and children is just insane.
@@mmseng2 Likely because the companies are based in countries where they don't have these regulations, and the cutters themselves are being sold on Amazon/other "aggregate" sites, where the products don't have to be approved to be sold.
@@thetechconspiracy2 Amazon still has to follow EU laws to sell in the EU, just like Apple will have to have USB-C connectors on their phones starting in a couple years. I think the problem is more likely that the regulations haven't caught up with this newfangled "Intarnät" thing the kids are talking about. They're probably written for industrial machines where you can expect proper training and facilities, not for 16-year-olds buying a 100W laser from Alibaba... We had the same issue with Vaping: In the beginning, there was no regulation what was allowed in vaping fluid, and nobody to regulate it, because the regulations for smoking didn't apply and it fell under no other law. It took years before there was a law that there may not be any carcinogens in vaping fluid. Source: I heard it from a Vaper and just checked that there now is in fact a law against that 😂
@@sourcererseven3858 @Joseph Still Fair point about differing regulations in other countries. Even if Amazon has some regulations to follow, that doesn't stop companies from selling dangerous stuff outside of Amazon/outside of the EU. I'm skeptical of the vaping comparison because, and this is part of my surprise, I would have expected there to be existing regulations on _anything_ containing lasers, kind of like how in the US there's FCC regulations on basically anything that can omit various other types of electromagnetic waves past certain thresholds.
I operated an industrial laser for a few years, these are all good tips. I would add that there are actually lots of things you "can" do that are supposedly impossible for a given laser wattage, it just takes a lot of patience. I cut a big logo half an inch deep into hardened stainless steel using a machine designed for surface marking once - just 40 watt output I think. It took a whole weekend, but it worked. Lots of fast passes. The point is to vaporize, not melt/burn. Don't give the heat a chance to spread. Would you believe I had to fight with them for months to get an exhaust system so I wasn't hotboxing my face with atomized god-knows-what every time I open the enclosure? Eventually I just made my own and suddenly it became a big deal that I was exhausting this shit right into the shop's air for everyone else to breathe.
Having watched quite a lot of Styropyro videos, anything to do with lasers that aren't properly enclosed sound like utter madness to me :D Thanks for spreading awareness!
Brainiac75 has gone over this a lot too. Lasers are definitely not something you want to mess around with. Cheap lasers especially because they're not always the power level/frequency they claim.
Appreciate the time you put into this video. As a "kinda thinking about getting a laser cutter" guy, I found out that I didn't know all the hazards that came from laser cutters. Thanks.
The question to "is X safe" is ALWAYS "no" by default, whether it can be safe or not. Because if you say "yes, as long as you do A, B and C and don't forget any important steps" someone is going to stop listening at "yes", ignite the atmosphere, and kill us all in the subsequent chain reaction.
Every time I see some youtuber reviewing some el cheapo diode laser cutter I keep on bringing up all the safety hazards and each time people just ignore the warnings and tell me I'm being negative and that I should look on the positive side. The positive side of permanent eye damage of lung cancer they mean? TH-camrs should take responsibility and not just want to have to score some likes for a free product they were given to review. You're one of the few that actually doesn't lick the heels and tells it like it is. Good job Angus! By the way, engraving paper is totally doable. Cardboard as well, I work with a Trotec 100W Co2 laser on a daily basis and when you get the settings right it can bring out a great result.
I just sent this video to a bunch of people in my lab as they seem to think it's ok to have a very large laser cutter in an office space with no ventilation or fume extraction. I shut that down and am now jumping into the world of fume extraction.
And with leather it's even worst than you think. A lot of the cheap leather comes from parts of the hide that had defects in it. To make the surface perfect, it gets filled with a polymer and sold at a lower price. And wood derivatives, even if "natural", will release upwards of 300 chemical byproducts when burned, including a lot of carcinogens. So if you can't afford a cutter with a closed enclosure, I feel it's a good idea to build one just to avoid having those airborne chemicals in your shop.
I might be mistaken but I think even the "genuine leather" thing includes this material because it is technically leather but just scraps glued together.
I am not really worried about wood smoke, but having wood with any glue in it is unsafe to cut if you ask me. I would rather watch a CNC mill than a laser cutter running open if you suppress the dust with some water (assuming nothing breaks and flies out) But once our lab milled glass fiber board without coolant and the dust was nasty
Great video. This confirms my deep suspicions about these machines. I used lasers in my work and they were designed with safety built-in so that even dummies could not damage themselves or others. I hope that people pay attention.
My friend, I just wanted to thank you for putting this out there and doing it in an emphatic way. Even smaller channels like mine get contacted by companies weekly (and these particular open designs that make you cringe - that's how they all look right about now), so the information comes at a good time. I recently did a review of the Atomstack X20, a unit I was willing to review because it would have been the one I'd buy. Had a safety glasses bit, talked about the fumes, etc. ...and it turns out I'm showing people the *wrong color safety glasses*, because I simply trusted what was sent to me. "These came with the laser, so they must be the right ones." Had no idea I was supposed to be using orange instead of green, let alone the appropriate density or rating. Past couple of days have been eye-opening. Thank you for videos like this!
I'm always surprised how easily some youtubers will feature an unsafe laser device in their videos, or just show careless behavior around lasers, chucking all sorts of materials in them without checking. Thanks for bringing this topic up again!
For metal "engraving", you can replace Cermark with moly lube spray with good results, and save a buck! The better option is to spray your metal black with a regular spraycan, burn your design with the laser (burning away the paint), then etch drop it in an etching solution. Works great for diy pcb's as well.
For the record: The cheap gantry cutters, and fiber markers, both come with completely useless fake goggles 99% of the time. We've tested most chinese goggles, and they vary in quality from "misses critical absorption lines" to "colorful plastic lmao". You NEED a very large, respectable western brand name(Thorlabs, Edmund, Laserglow, NoIR, for example) for any goggles besides CO2(in which case all you need is full cover glass or polycarbonate safety gogs, as both are opaque to 10.6um, but not PMMA). Given the risk of stuff reflecting off your material should there be something shiny, it's my primary worry.
@@Spirit532 I am so sorry, I was a bit tired and somehow read that as laser brands not goggle brands. Will check those out and get him some goggles for his lasers wavelength!
Brand does not matter, wavelength does. And you don't need OD6 glasses for a typical diode laser. The hazard with too much protection is people that can't see with them on tend to put them up on their head and forget they are there, ideally you want a pair you can see through readily, that have a shade of 2.5-3 instead of 7. Color doesn't matter either, as the green glasses use a compound that shelves off right around the blue laser wavelength making them as good as the red ones. And CO2 glasses can be crystal clear optically.
Safety concerns should always be called out and considered. I've forwarded this video to a friend who wants to get into laser cutting for crafting purposes, and I want her to have ammo to justify the expense of proper safety gear (enclosures and filtration) to her husband, who is famous for trying to go with just the basics. Thank you for making this video, from the entire maker community.
I assembled my diode laser and tested the moving parts, but didn't turn on the laser for several months because it worried me. I currently run it behind a temporary screen with the correct type of orange window in it, until I get an enclosure built. I bought it to mostly cut card for model making, which is all I've cut with it so far. Most jobs only take a few minutes, so it isn't running for the hours some people run theirs to engrave photos and complex graphics, and it's no problem to stay with it, with a fire extinguisher close by. I'll eventually use a camera to watch progress. The only other materials I plan to cut are thin ply and acrylic, but I'll probably only cut acrylic for jobs where I can't CNC mill it. It worries me that these open frame machines are available, and so many people are buying them, and I'm surprised there isn't an epidemic of eye damage being reported.
Thanks Angus, I've been following your content since I bought my Prusa a few years ago, and I've found your safety videos in particular to be both hugely educational and fascinating. I've watched this particular video couple of times -- shortly after it was first posted, when I was first thinking about picking up a laser cutter, and more recently (having just bought an xTool P2!) I suspect some of the safety videos like this don't do quite so well with The Algorithm, but please know that they're hugely appreciated! Cheers :) Sam
My job was recently gifted one of these 5W lasers and I thought it was cool as hell, so I volunteered to help set it up and test it. I understood the danger of the laser/lasers in general to some extent, but the orange shield around the laser body combined with the glasses it came with gave me a false sense of safety. After testing a few small balsa samples that it came with indoors, I decided to take it outdoors because the fumes were so bad. During my time outside, I happened to be adjusting my safety glasses at the exact moment I was turning around back towards the laser while it was lasing. For about one second I got a totally unshielded view of the laser from about 10ft away. I immediately turned off the laser and went inside to Google whether I had just given myself irreversible damage to my retina. For the next 12 hours after I thought had blind spots in my vision and was furiously googling whether the reflectivity of the material I was lasing at the distance and angle I viewed it, and the power of the laser-doing all this math to find out if I had done damage. I went to the eye doctor the next day and they scanned my retina and thankfully did not see any damage. Shortly after I happened to stumble upon a page that showed me the math of the exact laser I was using and said that I would have needed to stare at it for several minutes for damage to be done at that distance. It was an ENORMOUS weight off my shoulders. Moral of the story is that I got lucky, even if I wasn't in any real danger, because the opportunity to be blinded is still there and it should be fucking illegal to sell these things in their current configuration without any warnings.
I had almost the same thing many years ago. I do Holography as a hobby and as an artist. And the incident I am talking about happened when I was working for a professional guy that made large scale Holograms. I was in the process of aligning a pinhole (needed for clean up spread beams) and decided to take short break. The laser that was used was a powerful Argon laser that could output several Watts. When I turned around to get something to drink I thoughtlessly took of the protection goggles. However, one of the beams that was not aligned properly (yet) bounced of a shiny metal plate right into my eye. All I could see was a bright green flash. Of course I immediately went to an eye doctor, and to my relieve there was no damage done. I got lucky because the beam was already been through a spread lens, and the metal surface was unpolished enough to make the beam very diffuse. On top of that, it was only a very sort flash. Still - It could have been far, far worse. That day I learned a very valuable lesson! Never ever make the mistake of taking off protection goggles in a room with a working laser. Until this day many, many years later, I still take that same precaution every time I work with a laser. Even if it's a low powered 1mW to 20mW type. And I am happy to say that even on my age (I am almost 70) my eye sight is still a sharp as ever.
@@jclosed2516 I'm glad to hear your experience turned out okay as well! It's absolutely terrifying. I also got lucky in that the material I was lasing diffused the beam as well. If it had been reflective it could've been a lot worse. Losing your eyesight due to your own incompetent is the scariest thought. I can only imagine how many young children who get one of these as a gift won't be so lucky 😔
@@bunnypeople Yeah - That worries me a lot. Especially because the majority of these "sets" have little or no warning at all in their manual. On top of that - Young people these days go for instant gratification, and most of them do not even touch the manual and even less take a look at the safety chapters. I wonder how many have damaged eye sight after using that unsafe equipment for a while. Maybe because laser equipment was scarce and expensive 40 or more years ago, that you as owner payed full attention to the manual and thus prevented a lot of accidents. However, as you and I experienced, even the more knowledgeable can make mistakes (and learn their lesson that way).
Great video with good points! Laser cutting probably is the best (semi-) affordable rapid prototyping technology out there. It's unreal, how quickly you can get results and together with a 3D printer, it's magic. That being said, I would *never* use a laser cutter, that does not have a fully enclosed work area. The crappy glasses we saw in the video leave lines of sight open, so you might wear them and still go blind. Good rule of thumb: *never* cut a material, if you do not have and understand its datasheet. Stay safe, makers!
XTool has a fire suppression add on for their enclosed lasers that floods the chamber with co2 when it detects a fire. You for sure need an enclosure for that though.
I have purchased a couple of the open gantry type diode lasers and completely agree there isn't enough focus on safety. Buy a quality pair of safety goggles, don't rely on whatever is tossed in with the laser you are getting. I also found, after my very first test cut, an enclosure wasn't just a nice-to-have, it was an absolute requirement, as is smoke extraction. If you make your own enclosure, make sure the material you use for any windows is rated to filter the appropriate wavelength of light. You only get one set of eyes, don't go cheap on protecting them, get the real deal materials. Air assist also helps with keeping flammable materials from igniting, as well as providing a much better cut. I never walk away from my lasers when they are running. Somehow, I think machines like this know when they aren't being watched and take full advantage of the opportunity. I also keep a fire extinguisher right next to the machines.
Great video!!! I use lasers every day at work and one bit of advice I will add is to never get complacent or "hope for the best!". One time, we were under a time crunch to do a project. It was an easy project too. Cut a circle hole into a rubber cap, for 500 caps. We didn't properly vet the rubber and came back the next day to find our laser's linear rails brown with rust from chlorine exposure! My intern and I spent the next day and a half wet-sanding with 2000 grit sandpaper to restore our laser to working order... Moral of the story, don't rush and "hope" nothing bad will happen. Deadlines can be moved, due dates can be missed, but your health is priceless.
Ventilation is definitely a must have. I also suggest buying a known good set of glasses. I don't trust the garbage they package. Also I run mine is a room well ventilated and put a cone on the door to the house when in use. This let's my family know not to enter the room because laser is on. Definitely stay away from any materials that create chlorine gasses. Always wear your glasses while operating. And for co2 make sure there are no water leaks everything you use it. Glad you made a video on this topic.
Integrity and good content, as usual. Perfect! I worked with lasers too, and I can tell you, as soon as I received my Chinese laser cutter, the first things I did was to ditch the "protective googles" If you want to go this route, at VERY LEAST, buy good protection googles from a reputable brand. Yes, it will probably cost $30, but ask yourself, how much does my vision cost?
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS!!! So often I deal with people asking about diode lasers and it just a pile of NOPE for me! Thanks for putting this all together!
Excellent video. I work in industrial 3D printing and lasers and the increase in these open air lasers and especially the "palm sized lasers" is terrifying. The disregard for safety on these Amazon listings and Chinese Aliexpress product Kickstarters blows my mind.
Hey Angus, thanks a lot for this video! I work for a scanner company and know the risks regarding lasers. Now, I can recommend your video for everyone to get the first information about cheap and unsafe machines. Once more, thank you!
This is a great video. When I was researching buying a laser I started out looking at the new generation of diode lasers. They do look great in advertising but once you start looking at the limitations and dangers they were quickly dismissed. I quickly decided on a co2 laser just for the fact I needed a self contained unit that exhausts outside of my shop.
This is the guy that I watched back when I was trying to learn 3D printers to develop a product. Amazing content. I have since filed and earned 2 patents, and recently 3D printed a bunch of stuff for my daughters wedding. Sit back and listen to this young man, he is a college level education in a video.
Great video! About chrome tan leather, I do Pyrography and I’ve always been told to only burn vegetable tanned leather because the chemicals used to tan chrome tanned leather are toxic when burned, so I would assume the same goes for cutting. Also, the company I work for is thinking about getting a laser cutter, and I’ve personally been thinking about getting one, and this video gave me a lot to think about in terms of safety.
Be careful with your venting - always have an air inlet as well as an outlet in the same room. You can pull carbon monoxide backwards through the exhaust of things like water heaters if you don't. A young couple (and their cats) died because they put a powerful fan on a laser cutter and didn't allow for make-up air.
Wow. I was literally just talking to my friends about how I was thinking about getting a laser cutter for years and might finally decide to get one, as an artist who's interested in cutting acrylic for little keychain trinkets, and I found cutters that were cheap. But I checked out your channel by chance, and noticed this video as the recent upload, and it really came in clutch before I went and trusted that these machines were in any way safe for home use. My uninformed ass figured it didn't look that much different than an FDM printer, and as far as I was aware those weren't too bad to have chillin' in your room. (Or at least my dad had his in his room... maybe I'm wrong about that too!) Glad this video came out before I took extra work to buy a cutter, you may have saved my eyes, and I suppose by proxy my career, lol
The key thing here is if you want a laser cutter, get one that has a full enclosure, and follow all safety procedures and recommendations - I let my printers run overnight, but I wouldn't do that with a laser cutter, not that I have one. My largest FDM printer has a dedicated hepa air filter and all my printers are on a UPS/surge protector. My resin printers are on the other side of my pretty big workroom from where I usually am, and I generally print just with PLA on the plastic printers, which is pretty safe. As a rule though, I don't let the cats come in here just to be extra safe.
Dude I have a 5.5w laser cutter in my room and so far so good, but SAFETY first I bought an enclosure and a smoke extractor that attaches to it and I also run an air purifier, I mainly use it for engraving acrylics and 3mm wood sometimes in a while, I have cutted 3mm bamboo and 3mm wood, just make sure you know the limitations of your machine, take your precautions and definitely have it enclosed, then again I don't encourage to have it in your room like I do, as your uses for the laser might differ, I only use it for small projects and personal stuff and less than 1 hour a day , so smoke does not accumulate in my room at all, I notice engravement does not smoke as much as cutting but when I cut I only cut small pieces and run it for a very small time, so there is little to no smoke at all with the help of the smoke extractor, that being said I think that cheap lasers are a good alternative to enter the laser world and get your feet wet, I would NOT purchase a 1000$ laser when you are just a begginer, just my humble Opinion.
@@fluffydragon84 you don't necessarily need to purchase one that comes in a Full enclosure, those are worth 1000s of dollars and I would NOT purchase a 1K laser when you are a beginner, What I did was purchase the enclosure separately along with a fume extractor and it works like a charm, I also do 3D printing and its a whole different beef, I run my 3d printers all night in my room with no issues, but WOULD NOT do that with a laser engraver and not being there supervising myself, PLA is pretty much safe like you mentioned but Resin, I literlly have the printer outside in my enclosed porch if I was you I would not have it in the house at all, resin is SUPER TOXIC even if you have it enclosed and vented, is not recommended.
I’ve got one of those Chinese deathrays that has a laser end you can switch out for a router. I ran it using my best safety squints, with an extractor venting outside and shut it in a box while the laser came on. They are good at setting things on fire though!
Was watching some YT video reviewing another 20w diode laser in the background and my wife is like -- see, you don't have that, and you're running out of room in your shop for more tech, and I told her there are multiple reasons I don't want a laser, and shop space isn't one of them, neither is cost. Safety -- i.e extraction of fumes etc is my primary explanation to her -- tried to explain that there are no safe locations to extract the fumes out of the shop that would be far enough from other air exhaust/intake locations -- so I'm not even considering it. Thank you for alerting folks that all these videos showing happy model dad and his kid using one of these lasers in the open is scary and dangerous as hell.
Fun Fact: Formaldehyde is accumulative in your system. Meaning it wont do anything to you the first few times you're exposed to it. But one day youll stand over your printer/cutter/engraver/AB-foaming-urethane and end up on the floor before you realize you're getting woozy. Best to limit ones exposure in the first place. Also, on a personal opinion note: Dont get tunnel vision. A lot of these machines are all the same. like exactly the same, other than the mirrors to guide the laser, or the extruder head and z motion for SLA, or a few inches of z on the gantry for a router cutter head. For most of what I see people using lasers for a CNC router would easily get the job done at the cost of slightly more lost material in the cutters cut space. IF YOU DONT NEED A LASER, DONT WORRY ABOUT GETTING A LASER!!! You can build an extruded aluminum CNC router and add a CO2 laser and mirrors later if you are so inclined. So many devices in the g-code machine space are just recycling designs are pretending to be unique. Dont let them steal your money through marketing wank. Take a step back, engage your maker muscles, figure out how to do it with as much of what you already have as possible. Dont let them treat you like LoLcat idiots. Oh, and because for some reason this has become a thing people are apt to believe for some unknown reason: Regardless of whatever feel good cotton candy clouds launch video, or web design, or scripted personalized response bot emailer a company might be employing AT NO POINT IS ANY FOR PROFIT COMPANY OBLIGATED TO OPERATE IN YOUR BEST INTEREST!!!!! EVER!!!! STOP ASSUMING THEY ARE ON THE UP AND UP!!!! MOST ARENT!!! ESPECIALLY ON ALIEXPRESS/WISH/[enter China fly by night online store here]!!! Most of these devices are sold by a shell company in the states but assembled in and shipped from the same factory district in China the few actually US companies get their parts from. Seriously, if you have never looked up how the Chinese factory towns work look it up. Its amazing from a production stand point, one floor doing plastic injection another doing pcb etching another pick and place components and hand soldering, etc. But from a product reliability stand point....well it pays to know how that world works if you want to take advantage of the low cost of 'fell out of the back of the factory' 'it didnt let out the blue smoke, ship it' no name but it looks just like name brand stamped products (cough like wish.com cough). You have to consider whats wrong with a product they're essentially selling at cost that the name brand didnt want to stamp their name on. I personally bought a lot of electronics from wish, and always expected junk. Have been impressed a few times, but mostly expected bad solders, improper molding, bad programming on the one time programmable chips. I personally always looked at it like, 'well, as long as I get 8$ worth of electronic parts for my parts bins, Im okay if this turns out to be a hot mess.' Only a few times did I truly get garbage. A whole $14 dollars in all down the drain IIRC. Dont expect miracles with the low cost stuff, watch out for stuff you're just paying for the name branding. My rule of thumb, take the cheapest reasonable price and add 20% and do not pay less than that. At least that way you are likely to get something that actually went through some QA, but probably got rejected by the big name brand for ugly solders or something (which are easily fixed by us maker types, right?).
Great video as always!! I have a k40 style of laser that I went through very carefully before even plugging it in to check things like grounds, loose connections etc. Once I took care of the issues I did find and added a much better ventilation system it's been a really good machine. However I never leave it unattended while running jobs on it. A tip on various leathers, I do a lot of leather engraving or cutting and I only use good quality vegetable tanned leather for this. Chrome tanned leathers will release very bad fumes that are not only bad to breathe but can also damage your lenses and mirrors. One thing I have found that when cutting or engraving on leather is to do what's called casing the leather. You dampen it and let it almost dry before you run it in the laser. This gives you really nice clean cuts and engravings and helps cut down on the smoke.
I went through my K40 thoroughly as well. We later added an extra 200CFM extraction fan with it properly vented outside. Thanks for the tips on the leather. Been thinking about ordering some leather to play with from Tandy. They have their tanning processes well marked so you know what you are dealing with. I deal with acrylic and wood frequently so also installed an air assist that keeps the lenses clear of any smoke damage.
You've convinced me that i don't need a laser cutter. I had some usage of it, but all the drawbacks (smoke, eye danger, fire hazard) made it not necessary. Thank you for this.
Could not have come at a better time. I've been looking at laser cutters and have a few options in my cart but now I see that there are a lot more considerations that I need to make to do things safely.
Smart man, kudos to you, there are so many environmental and personal safety issues with lasers, it's amazing you can buy one. I have not seen anyone else talk safety like you, about these concerns. But taking the time to mitigate the dust and fumes can be done. A big shout out from Washington, State. Well done Mate.. Jim.
Great video and great timing. Was considering buying one of those cheaper laser machines but it didn't feel right. One thing i feel is missing from this video though, is testing out a pair of protective glasses that come included with one of those cheaper lasers to see if they are adequate enough to protect our eyes. I remember reading/watching somewhere that those cheap glasses are not to be trusted but I failed to find an actual experiment where one of the most popular cheap lasers is tested. Something from Neje or Ortur for example.
Safety goggles should burn when in the correct laser light. They absorb 100% of the light, and thus burn. If yours don't do that. That's a bad thing. A NDT is of you can see the laser with the goggles (obv only works with visible light lasers) but if you do, that's a bad thing, as the light isn't being absorbed
@@Zippytez I haven't gotten a laser engraver yet and i probably won't any time soon until i can ensure the saftey of operation within my small bed room 😅 Still got the eye safety and ventilation to figure out. Regarding what you said about the safety glasses. Apart form the high end glasses i have not seen any on youtube that did not show the dot which concerns me. I have seen videos of the cheap glasses burning as you described without reaching the other side of the glasses but since they also show a laser dot when we wear them then some light must still be passing and the concern is thus whether the light passing is of high enough energy to harm the eyes but not cause a burn mark. I assume that it is probably due to the light being on a wave length outside the rang of what those cheap glasses are rated for / can handle. Thus we really need to have some testing done where the glasses are checked for saftey against the laser coming out of the machines they are shipped with.
They are essentially colored plastic. Laser googles for this sort of laser power very often look like sky googles because even reflection is incredibly dangerous.
0:05 These are also risks associated with more expensive machines. Users must always be aware and in charge off the dangers in any process. Don't be foolish.
I tested cutting carbon fiber with epoxy a couple weeks ago with my 20W output diode laser. It cuts albeit slow very slow. Aside from leaving slight discoloration, I would say it was probably one of the better behaved cutting materials. Also to add to the list, kevlar cuts extremely fast, leaves a little bit of browning where it gets vaporized, and smells like fireworks, with some amount of hydrogen cyanide for good measure.
Good topic - I have been working with different lasers for 35 years now. Only about 1 year ago I bought one of this solid state laser modules, to hook it up to an 3D printer. I was shocked when the instructions directed me, to use the part cooling fan to control the laser diode ! One mistake and the laser would fire.... My 3D printer / laser is inside a vented / temp controlled cabinet, with activated carbon filter. -added safety switch to energize laser -added a second control output via GCode -kept the PWM control in parallel with laser -added nozzle / shroud around laser -cabinet door interlocks, to power off laser when opened -tinted the cabinet door with UV reducing film And still I am not very confident with those high power laser LED modules.
You are extreme well informed and you made a terrific and important video to set this topic on the agenda! I've seen some other channels digging into laser cutting and engraving lately without knowing of the risks and dangers inherent to Diode-Lasers.
I wouldn't consider Stylrene safe to laser cut. Maybe acceptably safe to cut with adequate extraction. Paraphrased from Wikipedia... Styrene, also known as vinylbenzene, is a known carcinogen, especially with eye contact, but also skin contact, inhalation, etc. The S in ABS stands for Styrene.
I've had a desktop laser for years. I am constantly surprised by the complete disregard for safety from the laser cutter communities around laser cutting. There are tons of craft people out there who have very little regard for the specifics of materials. I've seen people in glowforge facebook groups suggesting all sorts of cheaper sources for plywood and masking, only to go find out that the suggested masking material is vinyl sticker material, or the plywood doesn't disclose the type of glue that is used. If you point this out the group, they will often dismiss you... Lots of "it worked fine for me", SMH. In the old days, the glowforge forum had lots of good information about safety, but that was the community before mass market appeal.
Great advice and as a CO2 laser user of some 12 years experience I totally agree that I would NEVER use any laser without extraction or adequate covers. Out of interest I tried putting a cheap pair of laser safe glasses in front of my laser and it easily cut paper behind the lens! I’m glad the paper wasn’t my eyeball. As an electronics engineer I’ve replaced both the power supply and laser tube in my CO2 laser and was extremely careful with all the preparation and alignment. Aligning a CO2 laser tube correctly and safely is no simple matter and must be done carefully and methodically especially as it necessitates multiple busts of laser to check alignment. Like you the idea of using a frame laser with no ventilation is not just scary, frankly it’s totally irresponsible to sell them without huge and very clear warnings about the dangers involved. The last advert you displayed with a toy vehicle and a small child is frightening apart from the fact it’s highly unlikely that vehicle was made with that laser despite the clear implication it was. Scary stuff and we’ll done for highlighting the dangers people should only buy a laser IF they are fully aware of the risks involved. Well done and keep up the good work I’ve enjoyed watching your videos over the years and they’ve always been informative and well produced. 👍
Thanks again for your concerns about Safety. Many schools and people wanting to start a business at home will jump on the cheep lasers. I hope the get a chance to see this.
At least you were quoted in the context that you tried to warn about and correct a problem with an unsafe 3d printer. Imagine if you hadn't caught that and had instead recommended the printer as safe...
So it's like the Anet A8 all over again, except that the A8 added material in layers while these cut it off, yet both come full circle to burn everything down. Got it! (In all seriousness, thanks for these videos! Too many people go for the cheap route, don't bother learning things at all, and then get hurt.)
I totally agree with you Angus! I have been owning two co2 laser cutters, a 100W and a 50w,, but always inclosed. If you are using the open ones you should really be carful and within a feasible timeframe built a enclosure/cover, because its always soo easy that you are careful in the beginning, but after a while you are so likely to start being sloppy, especially if you are a creative maker, so don't forget the safety and take care of your body. Don't be afraid to use the technique, but have respect for it and the sky is the limit for your making!
Excellent video, and I've had the same thoughts seeing these devices sold. They of course *can* be used somewhat safely (say, if you live alone, use proper, rated goggles, and install proper ventilation). But it's so easy to make a life-changing mistake, and at that point - you might as well get a proper machine. It makes absolutely no sense to use an un-enclosed lasers in anything besides a dedicated laser laboratory.
@@getfucked3559 the reason it isn't illegal is that technically you are the manufacturer and therefore responsible for building an appropriate safety enclosure.
I ordered some laser cut acrylic parts for a build about 2 years ago and holy crap the smell. I don't know how anyone could be cutting that at home without a fume extraction setup.
Thanks for making this video! I've wanted a laser cutter for prototyping for a long time, but refuse to get a "cheap" cutter for all the safety reasons mentioned, and can't yet justify paying the $6000+ for something like a Glowforge with filter/exhaust unit. So instead I just use one of the online mail-order laser-cutting shops. It's kind of expensive and the delay is the most annoying part, but it removes the risks. And if I don't end up cutting many prototypes, it can definitely be cheaper too. But prototyping with 1-2 week lead times between iterations is not particularly fun...
Hi Angus, just a quick update on the new XTOOL laser that I bought. They have just released a flameproof and portable enclosure for it that looks quite good so have ordered it and the big extension kit which the enclosure also fits so hopefully this is one of the more exceptional lasers out there and is also of high quality to operate and now it looks to be as safe as my big blue boxed diode laser. Hoping so. Anyway, thanks again for the great knowledge you share with us all mate, much appreciated 11 out of 10 👍
I have the same enclosure. Just an FYI, I asked XTOOL customer support if they had specs for the optical density and wavelength band that the viewing window will block. After checking with their engineering department they told me it's not certified at all, and that safety glasses should be used with it even when it's closed.
I have a lot of subs, and a lot of interests, and I ALWAYS watch for your uploads, and I always enjoy them. You are a good guy! Best of luck in all your endeavors
Nice video, but I wish you would've spent more time on the laser eye safety part. We can replace our stuff if it catches fire, but we can't get replacement retinas. Emphasizing that and maybe providing a few more tips on laser safety goggles and how to test that they actually work would've been nice. Also, with lasers, I would absolutely use a belt and suspenders approach, goggles and enclosure. I'd probably wear an eye patch over one of the eyes as well, no need to risk both, especially if I can't trust the goggles.
Ive got a cheap china desktop laser. Currently building a enclousure for it, bought some real safety goggles by a store for laser equipment in my country (same for a little laser proof window for the box). Will also add some ventilation to it. If you like tinkering around, you can make a stupid china desktop laser more safe. So far I havent lasered much with it and spend more time with making the box and such (im dumb with such things), but I have a lot of fun with building and thinking about, how I can do things to improve it!
I don't like to be the one to say this, and I totally get that you don't want to be quoted again in any reports of laser cutter tragedies, but the fact that you _were_ quoted honestly gives your word and reputation some weight on these matters. You are very thorough and honest in your reviews, which gives you the integrity necessary to be a reliable source to quote when people read about tragedy and want answers.
It's a good point. Being quoted in a tragedy isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even if everyone was careful and did the right thing, there would be tragedy. This world is big, complicated, and 'imperfect'. Everyone won't do the right thing. You can only choose to try to be a positive influence, or to be a bad influence. So be quoted for the right reasons and keep being awesome 🙂
eva foam is (poly)ethylene vinyl acetate. no chlorine to be found, and most of the safety org have found it to not be a carcinogen. (at least, so far. this may change some years down the road.) so its probably 'safe' for this use, in regards to what's in it, but yes, definitely adhere to the ventilation rules.
Great Information as always. As an owner of a K40 CO2 Laser I can confirm, how terrifying they can be. Never letting it run unattended and frequently checking it. Also lots of materials I would not cut without air directly aimed at the focus point.
Timely video, we have have a laser cutter in our public library makerspace. I'm asking my staff to watch this video. The laser cutter is fully enclosed, but this video is still full of great information. Thank you!
You've basically confirmed all of my thoughts on the cheap lasers. I had a K40 for a little while - but to be honest, the amount of time, money and effort I would have had to put in to make it run properly and safely just wasn't worth it for me. My wife suggested one of the new generation of diode lasers as an alternative. I passed.
@@NotMe-ej9yz The new generation diode lasers are the ones this video is very specifically saying to NOT buy due to the dangers. I recommend a wife like mine that had me buy the largest OMTech CO2 laser with full enclosure and extraction we could afford. It was delivered by a semi truck.
I have a Laserbox pro, partly based on your recommendation. The other day I put masking tape down on my wood to protect it which ended up peeling off a bit and caught fire when the laser passed over it. Luckily I was watching and the fire burned itself out in about a second. If there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that when you’re using power tools, be safe. I’ve known too many old 3 fingered woodworkers to take chances with something as powerful as a 40 watt laser.
Nice video! this is one area where keeping the paranoia level high is exactly the right thing to do. have you considered doing a test of the laser glasses? Keep up the good work.
@@MakersMuse The goggles to me always felt like a workaround to an underlying problem, that being a laser outside of a safety enclosure. They're at best going to protect the one person wearing them, not curious people strolling by
@@iamdarkyoshi To be honest, I've no problem wearing the glasses even when the laser is in a case. The problem is that I don't particularly trust then to do the job.
@@MakersMuse honestly I was gob-smacked when I was that video on there own YT channel. I seriously thought this was some ill thought out Kickstarter :/
Great video. We just got a small mini laser to etch our logo into the wood products, and I started to design a vacum system with a hepa filter in it when I realized nearly all household vacs have them as a standard feature. and yardsale season is just around the corner. Again, great video. Thanks for the help.
If you are unsure about a material, look up the MSDS for it and scroll down to the heat, fire, and toxicity. BTW, EVA foam appears to be safe and also contains no egg, dairy, wheat or peanut products, by-products or derivatives. 🤣 I know other foams are a big no. Some contain cyanide when burned (Polyurethane foams is one of them). As always, do your own research.
MSDSs overcover and make it hard to tell irritants from the really nasty stuff. They're OK as a starting point or if you're planning on being overly conservative anyway, but if you need to know the real hazards you'll probably need more than that.
Having been involved with industrial laser welding I would agree with your analysis of the hobby range available. I attended several days trainig by professionals to cover just the safety issues. That training required successful completion of assessments leading to certification. So I really am surprised by the lack of support information and basic safety ,relying on the user alone to void potentially dangerous situations. Many adverts show a young child watching the process! I was considering getting a laser but am now more than convinced that the hobby market has much work to do.
General rule of thumb, if it’s synthetic or has synthetic glues, be very careful with it, and at all times have full ventilation. And always have high-end eye protection. The harm is too detrimental to not be very cautious.
An alarming find I had while doing preliminary research for which materials can be laser cut before even thinking about buying a laser cutter was ABS plastic. It releases cyanide gas when laser cut apparently.
Are there any certifications people should look for when buying lasers or 3d printers? Not that any of these Chinese laser/pienter companies would put any effort in this. But all lasers sold eu stores should probably have some certification?
This should be required viewing for all new to laser cutting. Done correctly laser cutting is so much fun and can make really great stuff but knowing all the pitfalls before hand could save people a lot of hassle.
If the person does their homework, keeps safety in mind and treats the laser with respect, you can do some amazing things with it.. I have 2 engravers and I have engraved a lot with them..It's the people that don't do any of the aforementioned that cause problems.. IE engraving or cutting a vinyl record.. leaving the engraver unattended.. and so on.. If you are interested in owning one.. Do the research and treat it with respect, you'll be fine.
"If the person does their homework" is the key. Just a tiny bit of research should point anyone to the fact that there's a LOT to learn, but my concern is someone getting a cheap kit for Christmas and just firing it up in the living room without even realising that it's not safe.
@@MakersMuse I totally agree, it can go sideways in a hurry if you are not on top of it.. Education is the key and know what you are working with and the materials you are using..
I really appreciate this video. This is one tool that I have always wanted and did not want to spend the money on a co2 laser and never understood the full enclosure. I honestly thought it was just to increase the price. I have looked into several of the hobby lasers and almost pulled the trigger a couple of times. I will now wait and save up for a proper laser cutter. Thank you
Honestly, this video is a bit cringy because while Angus makes valid points about safety and the way these products are marketed, many aspects could be applied to FDM printing. RESIN printing, FDM printing, CO2 laser and diode laser, all need enclosures and air extraction and fume filtering. All these non pro machines are sold at rock bottom price but don't have the bare minimum options to even operate. For example, diode lasers (which were initially sold as light engravers) can't really cut anything without burning if you don't have compressed air blowing at the focus point. And of course, you're going to need a honeycomb grid and a steel plate under it to support the cut material. And (mag) clamps to stick it to the frame. And of course, enclosure, air extraction AND activated charcoal filtering. Oh and did i mention the software side of it? [Insert advert here for buying LightBurn] All these add up to way more than the base 300 USD these machines are sold you for. Disingenuous and dangerous? Yes and yes. But it's the same as resin printing, where marketing materials never mention the hurdles of post processing and hasards of resin handling or the joys of FDM printing anything structural with engineering materials (ABS, Nylon, HIPS) without mentioning the need for proper enclosure, temperature control and air extraction and filtering. So invest the time to make your own research prior to buying yes (online communities offer great support for that), knowing that the price bare machines are sold to you is only a fraction of the cost of operating them safely and efficiently. That said, i would never go back to the time where all the wondrous technologies of the fablab were gatekept by the industrial design sector just for safety concerns over main consumer market. Metal working is hazardous and dangerous for your sight and lungs, woodworking is the same for yor lungs and stumpy nubs and aerosol use of any substance has to be done with proper EPI equipment. Those desktop technologies have their own issues but are no different than the already existing ones. Don't shy away from them but never get careless or complacent.
I got one of these cheapo diode lasers a while back, It was total nightmare, the wires were too short for any cable management so depending on the XY position there was a risk of it cutting its own wires, the instructions weren't english & the provided software was janky af. The amount of work it takes to get this machine working "safely" simply isn't worth the time or risk. Definitely avoid.
Thanks, have been looking to get one for 3 months and realized that i would need a cover box and vented extraction to use safely around others indoors. Now, i have a better knowledge to be safe about material selection.
Thank you, Angus. Long ago I dabbled in this before I really knew what I was doing. There is a huge difference between eye-burning open machines and the enclosed pro ones. I recently got a K40 "budget" laser and let me say I have very mixed feelings about it.
@@MakersMuse oh for sure, I stopped resin printing outright it creeped me out too much. I hope people see this and think twice about the open machines but I sadly am very doubtful too.
@@MakersMuse Due to health issues, Resin printers and Laser cutters have been on my list of "wants but". I'll probably never get either of those. Your videos are constant reinforcement that I am making the right move. Thanks.
Yeah all valid points. I spent an extra $300 to make an enclosure with 2020 extrusion for my Atomstack x20 pro. It also has a blower to exhaust outside.
I keep seeing videos about those cheap lasers pop up, and every one just looks so dangerous. Like someone could just walk into the room with it running, look at it and get permanent vision damage.
During 90% of operations the beam is super unlikely to bounce off, but that scene with the cup engraving is wild because the shiny metal would absolutely be sending laser radiation out into the room. Your eye tries to "fill in the gaps" with damage too, so you wouldn't really even know till its way too late.
As a matter of fact, I keep an extra pair of (ANSI certified) laser safety glasses at the entry to my shop in case a visitor pops in while the laser is on.
Favorite first test for anything going through the laser cutters: The flame test.. Take some copper wire, get it to red hot in a flame, stick it in the material then back in the flame until it glows again. If the flame is green, it includes a halide (Clorhine/flurine/bromide) and IS NOT SAFE..
Good fast first pass tesing.
Yep very good test!
@@MakersMuse It also lets you find out if it's real or fake leather. Though that the PVC leather melts helps a lot with this! :)
Thanks! I didn't know about this, but it's certainly been added to the rule book now. Better safe than sorry
Uhh? You do know that copper creates a blue/green flame effect right? Which kind of makes your test inaccurate. Steel wire would be far better for a color test.
@@ganjasage420 The test is for halides, not for copper. Copper wire in a flame produces no colour but it's salts do. When the wire is heated the halides attack the copper and copper ions that then make the flame green. Without them you get an orange flame of burning carbon.
This video right here is why I love your content.
Your message about safety on the tech we use for our hobbies is priceless. Thank you so much and keep doing what you do!!
You can pay youtube to get your comment featured now?
@@priceisalr1ght you pay the creator - I'm sure youtube takes a cut though - using the "super thanks" feature
@@priceisalr1ght it's not to get my comment featured, it's like a tip to Angus
Many thanks! Very happy to help share what I know.
@@priceisalr1ght This is the first thing I thought when I saw this. They removed dislikes. Added a new feature to pay to advertise in the comments.
TH-cam is going to shit more and more every minute
My first job out of college was writing testing software for a medical laser company and it was ALARMING how complacent people get around invisible lasers, even the optics safety guy gave me a hard time when I came asking for the right wavelength protection goggles, most people didn't even wear goggles when testing the lasers
I work in a sheet stainless steel fabrication factory, we use laser welding for it's pretty finish and a 2500W CNC cutter ... The sheer disregard the staff show for eye safety is terrifying... It's a shiny metal! It has to reflect some of that 2500w death beam! The cnc producer put a see though door so you won't have to open it! ... And rhe fucking welders! The welder can literally melt steel, and the handle looks like a gun!
I also worked at medical device company making lasers for orthopedic surgery. The lasers were Nd:YAG, which produce a wavelength that is not visible, bounces off walls and is especially damaging to eye tissue. And the tissue damage is cumulative.
The manufacturing and test area had safety curtains for the welding bays, which everyone was good about, and safety curtains for the laser testing, which were often ignored, probably because it was not visible. I was laughed at by the engineers (who should know better) when I asked about eye protection. "It's there in the cabinet, but nobody bothers." Those guys are all probably blind now or wearing inch-thick glasses.
Why do people insist on being stupid
@@mememan2344 You know about the saying "When you make something idiot proof, the world makes a better idiot"? Yeah. It's annoying indeed. The work safety classes in engineering make you give up any hope on the people you might be working with or working for you. The several mincemeat photos when people decide to take shortcuts in their work and bypass safety devices should make it obvious but the worker will still jam a plank of wood on the dead man switch to be able to stick a hand on the moving machine.
look up the demon core incident. there people were getting that complacent with plutonium
I've had the same reaction to seeing these lasers being sold. In a lab setting lasers that powerful in an open system like that would require a special room with a kill switch on the door that turned it off if anyone walked in. Ads showing them being used in a room with pets and children is just insane.
@@mmseng2 They probably are, but no one in power gives enough of a shit
@@mmseng2 Likely because the companies are based in countries where they don't have these regulations, and the cutters themselves are being sold on Amazon/other "aggregate" sites, where the products don't have to be approved to be sold.
@@thetechconspiracy2 Amazon still has to follow EU laws to sell in the EU, just like Apple will have to have USB-C connectors on their phones starting in a couple years.
I think the problem is more likely that the regulations haven't caught up with this newfangled "Intarnät" thing the kids are talking about. They're probably written for industrial machines where you can expect proper training and facilities, not for 16-year-olds buying a 100W laser from Alibaba...
We had the same issue with Vaping: In the beginning, there was no regulation what was allowed in vaping fluid, and nobody to regulate it, because the regulations for smoking didn't apply and it fell under no other law. It took years before there was a law that there may not be any carcinogens in vaping fluid.
Source: I heard it from a Vaper and just checked that there now is in fact a law against that 😂
@@sourcererseven3858 @Joseph Still Fair point about differing regulations in other countries. Even if Amazon has some regulations to follow, that doesn't stop companies from selling dangerous stuff outside of Amazon/outside of the EU. I'm skeptical of the vaping comparison because, and this is part of my surprise, I would have expected there to be existing regulations on _anything_ containing lasers, kind of like how in the US there's FCC regulations on basically anything that can omit various other types of electromagnetic waves past certain thresholds.
@@mmseng2 Because they are coming from China, where they don't care how many gweilos they kill or mame.
I operated an industrial laser for a few years, these are all good tips. I would add that there are actually lots of things you "can" do that are supposedly impossible for a given laser wattage, it just takes a lot of patience. I cut a big logo half an inch deep into hardened stainless steel using a machine designed for surface marking once - just 40 watt output I think. It took a whole weekend, but it worked. Lots of fast passes. The point is to vaporize, not melt/burn. Don't give the heat a chance to spread. Would you believe I had to fight with them for months to get an exhaust system so I wasn't hotboxing my face with atomized god-knows-what every time I open the enclosure? Eventually I just made my own and suddenly it became a big deal that I was exhausting this shit right into the shop's air for everyone else to breathe.
Seems like a good place to leave from.
Welcome to capitalism friend, where the bosses just throw out the old and replace with new once you get stage 4 terminal.
"What? No, it should only kill you. You can kill us."
But...Plasma cutter...
Having watched quite a lot of Styropyro videos, anything to do with lasers that aren't properly enclosed sound like utter madness to me :D Thanks for spreading awareness!
SEE, TH-cam? SEE? DRAKE PROMOTES LASER AND CHEMICAL SAFETY! CALL OFF YOUR DOGS!
Right? With how much he rants about laser safety (justifiably so with his crazy antics) he's got me scared to play with cat lasers now. LOL
Brainiac75 has gone over this a lot too. Lasers are definitely not something you want to mess around with. Cheap lasers especially because they're not always the power level/frequency they claim.
@@hazonku same! Now they scare me too! Definitely a good thing though.
I myself am a proud owner of a couple 1W+ handheld lasers - and seeing this video indeed made even me wince...
Appreciate the time you put into this video. As a "kinda thinking about getting a laser cutter" guy, I found out that I didn't know all the hazards that came from laser cutters. Thanks.
Nice, and I hope Linus will be grateful for the product placement too.
yeah
At this points it weird looking at youtube video with ltt products and person speaking not making a ltt.store sales pitch.
You say that like he usually isn't
I'm sure he'll be ok.
not sponsored by LLT mind :D
Linus et TH-cam a lol
Love how the thumbnail plainly says "no" 😂
Just incase you're short on time :)
@@MakersMuse that's amazing, very considerate!
@@MakersMuse extremely considerate. You're the most MVP player today! Congratulations 🎊
The question to "is X safe" is ALWAYS "no" by default, whether it can be safe or not. Because if you say "yes, as long as you do A, B and C and don't forget any important steps" someone is going to stop listening at "yes", ignite the atmosphere, and kill us all in the subsequent chain reaction.
@@MakersMuse You could also put "No." in the title!
As a laser safety representative I must emphasize the safety risks mentioned here. A very important video for those who want to work with lasers.
Every time I see some youtuber reviewing some el cheapo diode laser cutter I keep on bringing up all the safety hazards and each time people just ignore the warnings and tell me I'm being negative and that I should look on the positive side. The positive side of permanent eye damage of lung cancer they mean? TH-camrs should take responsibility and not just want to have to score some likes for a free product they were given to review. You're one of the few that actually doesn't lick the heels and tells it like it is. Good job Angus!
By the way, engraving paper is totally doable. Cardboard as well, I work with a Trotec 100W Co2 laser on a daily basis and when you get the settings right it can bring out a great result.
I just sent this video to a bunch of people in my lab as they seem to think it's ok to have a very large laser cutter in an office space with no ventilation or fume extraction. I shut that down and am now jumping into the world of fume extraction.
And with leather it's even worst than you think. A lot of the cheap leather comes from parts of the hide that had defects in it. To make the surface perfect, it gets filled with a polymer and sold at a lower price.
And wood derivatives, even if "natural", will release upwards of 300 chemical byproducts when burned, including a lot of carcinogens. So if you can't afford a cutter with a closed enclosure, I feel it's a good idea to build one just to avoid having those airborne chemicals in your shop.
I might be mistaken but I think even the "genuine leather" thing includes this material because it is technically leather but just scraps glued together.
I am not really worried about wood smoke, but having wood with any glue in it is unsafe to cut if you ask me. I would rather watch a CNC mill than a laser cutter running open if you suppress the dust with some water (assuming nothing breaks and flies out) But once our lab milled glass fiber board without coolant and the dust was nasty
Just curious, but why do you have to buy a cutter with an enclosure?
You can just make one.
Great video. This confirms my deep suspicions about these machines. I used lasers in my work and they were designed with safety built-in so that even dummies could not damage themselves or others. I hope that people pay attention.
My friend, I just wanted to thank you for putting this out there and doing it in an emphatic way.
Even smaller channels like mine get contacted by companies weekly (and these particular open designs that make you cringe - that's how they all look right about now), so the information comes at a good time.
I recently did a review of the Atomstack X20, a unit I was willing to review because it would have been the one I'd buy. Had a safety glasses bit, talked about the fumes, etc. ...and it turns out I'm showing people the *wrong color safety glasses*, because I simply trusted what was sent to me. "These came with the laser, so they must be the right ones." Had no idea I was supposed to be using orange instead of green, let alone the appropriate density or rating.
Past couple of days have been eye-opening. Thank you for videos like this!
I'm always surprised how easily some youtubers will feature an unsafe laser device in their videos, or just show careless behavior around lasers, chucking all sorts of materials in them without checking. Thanks for bringing this topic up again!
For metal "engraving", you can replace Cermark with moly lube spray with good results, and save a buck!
The better option is to spray your metal black with a regular spraycan, burn your design with the laser (burning away the paint), then etch drop it in an etching solution.
Works great for diy pcb's as well.
Any place in Australia that stocks moly lube?
This is a fantastic suggestion!♡ I would not have even thought about that!
For the record: The cheap gantry cutters, and fiber markers, both come with completely useless fake goggles 99% of the time. We've tested most chinese goggles, and they vary in quality from "misses critical absorption lines" to "colorful plastic lmao". You NEED a very large, respectable western brand name(Thorlabs, Edmund, Laserglow, NoIR, for example) for any goggles besides CO2(in which case all you need is full cover glass or polycarbonate safety gogs, as both are opaque to 10.6um, but not PMMA).
Given the risk of stuff reflecting off your material should there be something shiny, it's my primary worry.
So where can one buy decent goggles? I have a friend who operates one of these and I worry.
@@talonsl I mentioned a few brands in the comment. Those are safe.
@@Spirit532 I am so sorry, I was a bit tired and somehow read that as laser brands not goggle brands. Will check those out and get him some goggles for his lasers wavelength!
I say forget the goggles altogether...
Put it in an enclosure or put it in a separate room with a camera, and monitor it that way.
Brand does not matter, wavelength does. And you don't need OD6 glasses for a typical diode laser. The hazard with too much protection is people that can't see with them on tend to put them up on their head and forget they are there, ideally you want a pair you can see through readily, that have a shade of 2.5-3 instead of 7. Color doesn't matter either, as the green glasses use a compound that shelves off right around the blue laser wavelength making them as good as the red ones. And CO2 glasses can be crystal clear optically.
Safety concerns should always be called out and considered.
I've forwarded this video to a friend who wants to get into laser cutting for crafting purposes, and I want her to have ammo to justify the expense of proper safety gear (enclosures and filtration) to her husband, who is famous for trying to go with just the basics.
Thank you for making this video, from the entire maker community.
I assembled my diode laser and tested the moving parts, but didn't turn on the laser for several months because it worried me. I currently run it behind a temporary screen with the correct type of orange window in it, until I get an enclosure built. I bought it to mostly cut card for model making, which is all I've cut with it so far. Most jobs only take a few minutes, so it isn't running for the hours some people run theirs to engrave photos and complex graphics, and it's no problem to stay with it, with a fire extinguisher close by. I'll eventually use a camera to watch progress. The only other materials I plan to cut are thin ply and acrylic, but I'll probably only cut acrylic for jobs where I can't CNC mill it. It worries me that these open frame machines are available, and so many people are buying them, and I'm surprised there isn't an epidemic of eye damage being reported.
Thanks Angus, I've been following your content since I bought my Prusa a few years ago, and I've found your safety videos in particular to be both hugely educational and fascinating.
I've watched this particular video couple of times -- shortly after it was first posted, when I was first thinking about picking up a laser cutter, and more recently (having just bought an xTool P2!)
I suspect some of the safety videos like this don't do quite so well with The Algorithm, but please know that they're hugely appreciated!
Cheers :)
Sam
I'm glad you've taken the time to make this video. It's a massive problem for newbies with these cheap machines.
My job was recently gifted one of these 5W lasers and I thought it was cool as hell, so I volunteered to help set it up and test it. I understood the danger of the laser/lasers in general to some extent, but the orange shield around the laser body combined with the glasses it came with gave me a false sense of safety. After testing a few small balsa samples that it came with indoors, I decided to take it outdoors because the fumes were so bad. During my time outside, I happened to be adjusting my safety glasses at the exact moment I was turning around back towards the laser while it was lasing. For about one second I got a totally unshielded view of the laser from about 10ft away. I immediately turned off the laser and went inside to Google whether I had just given myself irreversible damage to my retina. For the next 12 hours after I thought had blind spots in my vision and was furiously googling whether the reflectivity of the material I was lasing at the distance and angle I viewed it, and the power of the laser-doing all this math to find out if I had done damage. I went to the eye doctor the next day and they scanned my retina and thankfully did not see any damage. Shortly after I happened to stumble upon a page that showed me the math of the exact laser I was using and said that I would have needed to stare at it for several minutes for damage to be done at that distance. It was an ENORMOUS weight off my shoulders.
Moral of the story is that I got lucky, even if I wasn't in any real danger, because the opportunity to be blinded is still there and it should be fucking illegal to sell these things in their current configuration without any warnings.
I had almost the same thing many years ago. I do Holography as a hobby and as an artist. And the incident I am talking about happened when I was working for a professional guy that made large scale Holograms. I was in the process of aligning a pinhole (needed for clean up spread beams) and decided to take short break. The laser that was used was a powerful Argon laser that could output several Watts. When I turned around to get something to drink I thoughtlessly took of the protection goggles. However, one of the beams that was not aligned properly (yet) bounced of a shiny metal plate right into my eye. All I could see was a bright green flash. Of course I immediately went to an eye doctor, and to my relieve there was no damage done. I got lucky because the beam was already been through a spread lens, and the metal surface was unpolished enough to make the beam very diffuse. On top of that, it was only a very sort flash. Still - It could have been far, far worse.
That day I learned a very valuable lesson! Never ever make the mistake of taking off protection goggles in a room with a working laser. Until this day many, many years later, I still take that same precaution every time I work with a laser. Even if it's a low powered 1mW to 20mW type. And I am happy to say that even on my age (I am almost 70) my eye sight is still a sharp as ever.
@@jclosed2516 I'm glad to hear your experience turned out okay as well! It's absolutely terrifying. I also got lucky in that the material I was lasing diffused the beam as well. If it had been reflective it could've been a lot worse. Losing your eyesight due to your own incompetent is the scariest thought. I can only imagine how many young children who get one of these as a gift won't be so lucky 😔
@@bunnypeople Yeah - That worries me a lot. Especially because the majority of these "sets" have little or no warning at all in their manual. On top of that - Young people these days go for instant gratification, and most of them do not even touch the manual and even less take a look at the safety chapters. I wonder how many have damaged eye sight after using that unsafe equipment for a while.
Maybe because laser equipment was scarce and expensive 40 or more years ago, that you as owner payed full attention to the manual and thus prevented a lot of accidents. However, as you and I experienced, even the more knowledgeable can make mistakes (and learn their lesson that way).
Great video with good points!
Laser cutting probably is the best (semi-) affordable rapid prototyping technology out there. It's unreal, how quickly you can get results and together with a 3D printer, it's magic.
That being said, I would *never* use a laser cutter, that does not have a fully enclosed work area. The crappy glasses we saw in the video leave lines of sight open, so you might wear them and still go blind.
Good rule of thumb: *never* cut a material, if you do not have and understand its datasheet.
Stay safe, makers!
If there was a laser engraving machine that could automatically put out the fire when it caught fire, I would buy it
well it depends. a air assist will stop it from catching fire the majority of the time.
Sounds like an Arduino project
XTool has a fire suppression add on for their enclosed lasers that floods the chamber with co2 when it detects a fire. You for sure need an enclosure for that though.
You for sure need an enclosure in ANY case.
Wow! Several important issues here I would not have realized! Thank you for putting this out there. Love the channel, keep up the great work!
I have purchased a couple of the open gantry type diode lasers and completely agree there isn't enough focus on safety. Buy a quality pair of safety goggles, don't rely on whatever is tossed in with the laser you are getting. I also found, after my very first test cut, an enclosure wasn't just a nice-to-have, it was an absolute requirement, as is smoke extraction. If you make your own enclosure, make sure the material you use for any windows is rated to filter the appropriate wavelength of light. You only get one set of eyes, don't go cheap on protecting them, get the real deal materials. Air assist also helps with keeping flammable materials from igniting, as well as providing a much better cut. I never walk away from my lasers when they are running. Somehow, I think machines like this know when they aren't being watched and take full advantage of the opportunity. I also keep a fire extinguisher right next to the machines.
The thing is, we don't all have infinite money. Fully enclosed laser machines are very expensive.
Any tips on making sure the goggles bought are _actually_ safety rated (and not these fake colored plastic things)?
Great video!!! I use lasers every day at work and one bit of advice I will add is to never get complacent or "hope for the best!". One time, we were under a time crunch to do a project. It was an easy project too. Cut a circle hole into a rubber cap, for 500 caps. We didn't properly vet the rubber and came back the next day to find our laser's linear rails brown with rust from chlorine exposure! My intern and I spent the next day and a half wet-sanding with 2000 grit sandpaper to restore our laser to working order... Moral of the story, don't rush and "hope" nothing bad will happen. Deadlines can be moved, due dates can be missed, but your health is priceless.
Ventilation is definitely a must have. I also suggest buying a known good set of glasses. I don't trust the garbage they package. Also I run mine is a room well ventilated and put a cone on the door to the house when in use. This let's my family know not to enter the room because laser is on. Definitely stay away from any materials that create chlorine gasses. Always wear your glasses while operating. And for co2 make sure there are no water leaks everything you use it. Glad you made a video on this topic.
Integrity and good content, as usual.
Perfect!
I worked with lasers too, and I can tell you, as soon as I received my Chinese laser cutter, the first things I did was to ditch the "protective googles"
If you want to go this route, at VERY LEAST, buy good protection googles from a reputable brand.
Yes, it will probably cost $30, but ask yourself, how much does my vision cost?
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS!!! So often I deal with people asking about diode lasers and it just a pile of NOPE for me! Thanks for putting this all together!
Excellent video. I work in industrial 3D printing and lasers and the increase in these open air lasers and especially the "palm sized lasers" is terrifying. The disregard for safety on these Amazon listings and Chinese Aliexpress product Kickstarters blows my mind.
Hey Angus, thanks a lot for this video! I work for a scanner company and know the risks regarding lasers. Now, I can recommend your video for everyone to get the first information about cheap and unsafe machines. Once more, thank you!
This is a great video. When I was researching buying a laser I started out looking at the new generation of diode lasers. They do look great in advertising but once you start looking at the limitations and dangers they were quickly dismissed. I quickly decided on a co2 laser just for the fact I needed a self contained unit that exhausts outside of my shop.
Nice to see someone finally address this. These companies need to be called out!
Thank you for continuing to make videos like this, your commitment to safety in the hobbies that we all enjoy does not go unnoticed! 😊
This is the guy that I watched back when I was trying to learn 3D printers to develop a product. Amazing content. I have since filed and earned 2 patents, and recently 3D printed a bunch of stuff for my daughters wedding. Sit back and listen to this young man, he is a college level education in a video.
Great video! About chrome tan leather, I do Pyrography and I’ve always been told to only burn vegetable tanned leather because the chemicals used to tan chrome tanned leather are toxic when burned, so I would assume the same goes for cutting.
Also, the company I work for is thinking about getting a laser cutter, and I’ve personally been thinking about getting one, and this video gave me a lot to think about in terms of safety.
Be careful with your venting - always have an air inlet as well as an outlet in the same room. You can pull carbon monoxide backwards through the exhaust of things like water heaters if you don't. A young couple (and their cats) died because they put a powerful fan on a laser cutter and didn't allow for make-up air.
And get a CO2 alarm if you have any open-flue gas appliances.
@@petermichaelgreen I think you mean a CO (carbon MONoxide) alarm, CO2 won't do anything except trigger your breathing response.
Wow. I was literally just talking to my friends about how I was thinking about getting a laser cutter for years and might finally decide to get one, as an artist who's interested in cutting acrylic for little keychain trinkets, and I found cutters that were cheap. But I checked out your channel by chance, and noticed this video as the recent upload, and it really came in clutch before I went and trusted that these machines were in any way safe for home use.
My uninformed ass figured it didn't look that much different than an FDM printer, and as far as I was aware those weren't too bad to have chillin' in your room. (Or at least my dad had his in his room... maybe I'm wrong about that too!) Glad this video came out before I took extra work to buy a cutter, you may have saved my eyes, and I suppose by proxy my career, lol
You could look into shrinky dink stuff if you don’t want to mess with laser cutters
The key thing here is if you want a laser cutter, get one that has a full enclosure, and follow all safety procedures and recommendations - I let my printers run overnight, but I wouldn't do that with a laser cutter, not that I have one. My largest FDM printer has a dedicated hepa air filter and all my printers are on a UPS/surge protector. My resin printers are on the other side of my pretty big workroom from where I usually am, and I generally print just with PLA on the plastic printers, which is pretty safe. As a rule though, I don't let the cats come in here just to be extra safe.
Dude I have a 5.5w laser cutter in my room and so far so good, but SAFETY first I bought an enclosure and a smoke extractor that attaches to it and I also run an air purifier, I mainly use it for engraving acrylics and 3mm wood sometimes in a while, I have cutted 3mm bamboo and 3mm wood, just make sure you know the limitations of your machine, take your precautions and definitely have it enclosed, then again I don't encourage to have it in your room like I do, as your uses for the laser might differ, I only use it for small projects and personal stuff and less than 1 hour a day , so smoke does not accumulate in my room at all, I notice engravement does not smoke as much as cutting but when I cut I only cut small pieces and run it for a very small time, so there is little to no smoke at all with the help of the smoke extractor, that being said I think that cheap lasers are a good alternative to enter the laser world and get your feet wet, I would NOT purchase a 1000$ laser when you are just a begginer, just my humble Opinion.
@@fluffydragon84 you don't necessarily need to purchase one that comes in a Full enclosure, those are worth 1000s of dollars and I would NOT purchase a 1K laser when you are a beginner, What I did was purchase the enclosure separately along with a fume extractor and it works like a charm, I also do 3D printing and its a whole different beef, I run my 3d printers all night in my room with no issues, but WOULD NOT do that with a laser engraver and not being there supervising myself, PLA is pretty much safe like you mentioned but Resin, I literlly have the printer outside in my enclosed porch if I was you I would not have it in the house at all, resin is SUPER TOXIC even if you have it enclosed and vented, is not recommended.
I’ve got one of those Chinese deathrays that has a laser end you can switch out for a router. I ran it using my best safety squints, with an extractor venting outside and shut it in a box while the laser came on.
They are good at setting things on fire though!
Was watching some YT video reviewing another 20w diode laser in the background and my wife is like -- see, you don't have that, and you're running out of room in your shop for more tech, and I told her there are multiple reasons I don't want a laser, and shop space isn't one of them, neither is cost. Safety -- i.e extraction of fumes etc is my primary explanation to her -- tried to explain that there are no safe locations to extract the fumes out of the shop that would be far enough from other air exhaust/intake locations -- so I'm not even considering it. Thank you for alerting folks that all these videos showing happy model dad and his kid using one of these lasers in the open is scary and dangerous as hell.
Fun Fact: Formaldehyde is accumulative in your system. Meaning it wont do anything to you the first few times you're exposed to it. But one day youll stand over your printer/cutter/engraver/AB-foaming-urethane and end up on the floor before you realize you're getting woozy. Best to limit ones exposure in the first place.
Also, on a personal opinion note: Dont get tunnel vision. A lot of these machines are all the same. like exactly the same, other than the mirrors to guide the laser, or the extruder head and z motion for SLA, or a few inches of z on the gantry for a router cutter head. For most of what I see people using lasers for a CNC router would easily get the job done at the cost of slightly more lost material in the cutters cut space. IF YOU DONT NEED A LASER, DONT WORRY ABOUT GETTING A LASER!!! You can build an extruded aluminum CNC router and add a CO2 laser and mirrors later if you are so inclined. So many devices in the g-code machine space are just recycling designs are pretending to be unique. Dont let them steal your money through marketing wank. Take a step back, engage your maker muscles, figure out how to do it with as much of what you already have as possible. Dont let them treat you like LoLcat idiots.
Oh, and because for some reason this has become a thing people are apt to believe for some unknown reason: Regardless of whatever feel good cotton candy clouds launch video, or web design, or scripted personalized response bot emailer a company might be employing AT NO POINT IS ANY FOR PROFIT COMPANY OBLIGATED TO OPERATE IN YOUR BEST INTEREST!!!!! EVER!!!! STOP ASSUMING THEY ARE ON THE UP AND UP!!!! MOST ARENT!!! ESPECIALLY ON ALIEXPRESS/WISH/[enter China fly by night online store here]!!! Most of these devices are sold by a shell company in the states but assembled in and shipped from the same factory district in China the few actually US companies get their parts from. Seriously, if you have never looked up how the Chinese factory towns work look it up. Its amazing from a production stand point, one floor doing plastic injection another doing pcb etching another pick and place components and hand soldering, etc. But from a product reliability stand point....well it pays to know how that world works if you want to take advantage of the low cost of 'fell out of the back of the factory' 'it didnt let out the blue smoke, ship it' no name but it looks just like name brand stamped products (cough like wish.com cough). You have to consider whats wrong with a product they're essentially selling at cost that the name brand didnt want to stamp their name on. I personally bought a lot of electronics from wish, and always expected junk. Have been impressed a few times, but mostly expected bad solders, improper molding, bad programming on the one time programmable chips. I personally always looked at it like, 'well, as long as I get 8$ worth of electronic parts for my parts bins, Im okay if this turns out to be a hot mess.' Only a few times did I truly get garbage. A whole $14 dollars in all down the drain IIRC. Dont expect miracles with the low cost stuff, watch out for stuff you're just paying for the name branding. My rule of thumb, take the cheapest reasonable price and add 20% and do not pay less than that. At least that way you are likely to get something that actually went through some QA, but probably got rejected by the big name brand for ugly solders or something (which are easily fixed by us maker types, right?).
Great video as always!! I have a k40 style of laser that I went through very carefully before even plugging it in to check things like grounds, loose connections etc. Once I took care of the issues I did find and added a much better ventilation system it's been a really good machine. However I never leave it unattended while running jobs on it. A tip on various leathers, I do a lot of leather engraving or cutting and I only use good quality vegetable tanned leather for this. Chrome tanned leathers will release very bad fumes that are not only bad to breathe but can also damage your lenses and mirrors. One thing I have found that when cutting or engraving on leather is to do what's called casing the leather. You dampen it and let it almost dry before you run it in the laser. This gives you really nice clean cuts and engravings and helps cut down on the smoke.
I went through my K40 thoroughly as well. We later added an extra 200CFM extraction fan with it properly vented outside. Thanks for the tips on the leather. Been thinking about ordering some leather to play with from Tandy. They have their tanning processes well marked so you know what you are dealing with. I deal with acrylic and wood frequently so also installed an air assist that keeps the lenses clear of any smoke damage.
You've convinced me that i don't need a laser cutter. I had some usage of it, but all the drawbacks (smoke, eye danger, fire hazard) made it not necessary. Thank you for this.
Could not have come at a better time. I've been looking at laser cutters and have a few options in my cart but now I see that there are a lot more considerations that I need to make to do things safely.
Smart man, kudos to you, there are so many environmental and personal safety issues with lasers, it's amazing you can buy one. I have not seen anyone else talk safety like you, about these concerns. But taking the time to mitigate the dust and fumes can be done. A big shout out from Washington, State. Well done Mate.. Jim.
Great video and great timing. Was considering buying one of those cheaper laser machines but it didn't feel right. One thing i feel is missing from this video though, is testing out a pair of protective glasses that come included with one of those cheaper lasers to see if they are adequate enough to protect our eyes. I remember reading/watching somewhere that those cheap glasses are not to be trusted but I failed to find an actual experiment where one of the most popular cheap lasers is tested. Something from Neje or Ortur for example.
Simple answer, if you did not get your laser safety goggles from a reputable company do not trust them.
Safety goggles should burn when in the correct laser light. They absorb 100% of the light, and thus burn. If yours don't do that. That's a bad thing.
A NDT is of you can see the laser with the goggles (obv only works with visible light lasers) but if you do, that's a bad thing, as the light isn't being absorbed
@@Zippytez I haven't gotten a laser engraver yet and i probably won't any time soon until i can ensure the saftey of operation within my small bed room 😅
Still got the eye safety and ventilation to figure out.
Regarding what you said about the safety glasses. Apart form the high end glasses i have not seen any on youtube that did not show the dot which concerns me. I have seen videos of the cheap glasses burning as you described without reaching the other side of the glasses but since they also show a laser dot when we wear them then some light must still be passing and the concern is thus whether the light passing is of high enough energy to harm the eyes but not cause a burn mark. I assume that it is probably due to the light being on a wave length outside the rang of what those cheap glasses are rated for / can handle. Thus we really need to have some testing done where the glasses are checked for saftey against the laser coming out of the machines they are shipped with.
They are essentially colored plastic. Laser googles for this sort of laser power very often look like sky googles because even reflection is incredibly dangerous.
0:05 These are also risks associated with more expensive machines. Users must always be aware and in charge off the dangers in any process. Don't be foolish.
I tested cutting carbon fiber with epoxy a couple weeks ago with my 20W output diode laser. It cuts albeit slow very slow. Aside from leaving slight discoloration, I would say it was probably one of the better behaved cutting materials. Also to add to the list, kevlar cuts extremely fast, leaves a little bit of browning where it gets vaporized, and smells like fireworks, with some amount of hydrogen cyanide for good measure.
Also lots of spiky carbon fiber fragments that can physically puncture cells and give you cancer! Yeah, burnt carbon fiber is not good for you.
Good topic - I have been working with different lasers for 35 years now.
Only about 1 year ago I bought one of this solid state laser modules, to hook it up
to an 3D printer.
I was shocked when the instructions directed me, to use the part cooling fan to control
the laser diode ! One mistake and the laser would fire....
My 3D printer / laser is inside a vented / temp controlled cabinet, with activated carbon filter.
-added safety switch to energize laser
-added a second control output via GCode
-kept the PWM control in parallel with laser
-added nozzle / shroud around laser
-cabinet door interlocks, to power off laser when opened
-tinted the cabinet door with UV reducing film
And still I am not very confident with those high power laser LED modules.
Finally! I have refused to sell these deathtraps in our shop for just the reasons you list here.
They're a liability nightmare waiting to happen imo... good call!
You are extreme well informed and you made a terrific and important video to set this topic on the agenda! I've seen some other channels digging into laser cutting and engraving lately without knowing of the risks and dangers inherent to Diode-Lasers.
I wouldn't consider Stylrene safe to laser cut. Maybe acceptably safe to cut with adequate extraction. Paraphrased from Wikipedia...
Styrene, also known as vinylbenzene, is a known carcinogen, especially with eye contact, but also skin contact, inhalation, etc.
The S in ABS stands for Styrene.
Good to know!
I've had a desktop laser for years. I am constantly surprised by the complete disregard for safety from the laser cutter communities around laser cutting. There are tons of craft people out there who have very little regard for the specifics of materials. I've seen people in glowforge facebook groups suggesting all sorts of cheaper sources for plywood and masking, only to go find out that the suggested masking material is vinyl sticker material, or the plywood doesn't disclose the type of glue that is used. If you point this out the group, they will often dismiss you... Lots of "it worked fine for me", SMH. In the old days, the glowforge forum had lots of good information about safety, but that was the community before mass market appeal.
Great advice and as a CO2 laser user of some 12 years experience I totally agree that I would NEVER use any laser without extraction or adequate covers. Out of interest I tried putting a cheap pair of laser safe glasses in front of my laser and it easily cut paper behind the lens! I’m glad the paper wasn’t my eyeball. As an electronics engineer I’ve replaced both the power supply and laser tube in my CO2 laser and was extremely careful with all the preparation and alignment. Aligning a CO2 laser tube correctly and safely is no simple matter and must be done carefully and methodically especially as it necessitates multiple busts of laser to check alignment. Like you the idea of using a frame laser with no ventilation is not just scary, frankly it’s totally irresponsible to sell them without huge and very clear warnings about the dangers involved. The last advert you displayed with a toy vehicle and a small child is frightening apart from the fact it’s highly unlikely that vehicle was made with that laser despite the clear implication it was. Scary stuff and we’ll done for highlighting the dangers people should only buy a laser IF they are fully aware of the risks involved. Well done and keep up the good work I’ve enjoyed watching your videos over the years and they’ve always been informative and well produced. 👍
Thanks again for your concerns about Safety. Many schools and people wanting to start a business at home will jump on the cheep lasers. I hope the get a chance to see this.
At least you were quoted in the context that you tried to warn about and correct a problem with an unsafe 3d printer. Imagine if you hadn't caught that and had instead recommended the printer as safe...
Thanks for exposing these bad companies
So it's like the Anet A8 all over again, except that the A8 added material in layers while these cut it off, yet both come full circle to burn everything down. Got it! (In all seriousness, thanks for these videos! Too many people go for the cheap route, don't bother learning things at all, and then get hurt.)
I totally agree with you Angus! I have been owning two co2 laser cutters, a 100W and a 50w,, but always inclosed. If you are using the open ones you should really be carful and within a feasible timeframe built a enclosure/cover, because its always soo easy that you are careful in the beginning, but after a while you are so likely to start being sloppy, especially if you are a creative maker, so don't forget the safety and take care of your body. Don't be afraid to use the technique, but have respect for it and the sky is the limit for your making!
Excellent video, and I've had the same thoughts seeing these devices sold. They of course *can* be used somewhat safely (say, if you live alone, use proper, rated goggles, and install proper ventilation). But it's so easy to make a life-changing mistake, and at that point - you might as well get a proper machine.
It makes absolutely no sense to use an un-enclosed lasers in anything besides a dedicated laser laboratory.
I wouldn't have even thought that selling unenclosed lasers is legal.
@@getfucked3559 I doubt it is, but as they say... 'China'.
@@getfucked3559 the reason it isn't illegal is that technically you are the manufacturer and therefore responsible for building an appropriate safety enclosure.
Could you make a video on the cheapest lasercutter you can recommend? Would help out the budget crowd estimating what they have to spend!
I love the irony that just yesterday I was looking at lasers that attach to 3D printers, then you upload this the next day. Very informative video!
Yep, I just got mine delivered yesterday... Whoops. Oh well I guess.
Thanks for this. You make a huge difference in the maker community and your commitment to our safety is evident.
I ordered some laser cut acrylic parts for a build about 2 years ago and holy crap the smell. I don't know how anyone could be cutting that at home without a fume extraction setup.
Thanks for making this video! I've wanted a laser cutter for prototyping for a long time, but refuse to get a "cheap" cutter for all the safety reasons mentioned, and can't yet justify paying the $6000+ for something like a Glowforge with filter/exhaust unit. So instead I just use one of the online mail-order laser-cutting shops. It's kind of expensive and the delay is the most annoying part, but it removes the risks. And if I don't end up cutting many prototypes, it can definitely be cheaper too. But prototyping with 1-2 week lead times between iterations is not particularly fun...
Hi Angus, just a quick update on the new XTOOL laser that I bought. They have just released a flameproof and portable enclosure for it that looks quite good so have ordered it and the big extension kit which the enclosure also fits so hopefully this is one of the more exceptional lasers out there and is also of high quality to operate and now it looks to be as safe as my big blue boxed diode laser. Hoping so. Anyway, thanks again for the great knowledge you share with us all mate, much appreciated 11 out of 10 👍
I have the same enclosure. Just an FYI, I asked XTOOL customer support if they had specs for the optical density and wavelength band that the viewing window will block. After checking with their engineering department they told me it's not certified at all, and that safety glasses should be used with it even when it's closed.
I have a lot of subs, and a lot of interests, and I ALWAYS watch for your uploads, and I always enjoy them. You are a good guy! Best of luck in all your endeavors
Nice video, but I wish you would've spent more time on the laser eye safety part.
We can replace our stuff if it catches fire, but we can't get replacement retinas. Emphasizing that and maybe providing a few more tips on laser safety goggles and how to test that they actually work would've been nice.
Also, with lasers, I would absolutely use a belt and suspenders approach, goggles and enclosure. I'd probably wear an eye patch over one of the eyes as well, no need to risk both, especially if I can't trust the goggles.
Mustard work great to "etch " metal. which is a nice alternative for the expensive stuff.
Ive got a cheap china desktop laser. Currently building a enclousure for it, bought some real safety goggles by a store for laser equipment in my country (same for a little laser proof window for the box).
Will also add some ventilation to it.
If you like tinkering around, you can make a stupid china desktop laser more safe.
So far I havent lasered much with it and spend more time with making the box and such (im dumb with such things), but I have a lot of fun with building and thinking about, how I can do things to improve it!
I don't like to be the one to say this, and I totally get that you don't want to be quoted again in any reports of laser cutter tragedies, but the fact that you _were_ quoted honestly gives your word and reputation some weight on these matters. You are very thorough and honest in your reviews, which gives you the integrity necessary to be a reliable source to quote when people read about tragedy and want answers.
It's a good point.
Being quoted in a tragedy isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even if everyone was careful and did the right thing, there would be tragedy. This world is big, complicated, and 'imperfect'. Everyone won't do the right thing. You can only choose to try to be a positive influence, or to be a bad influence.
So be quoted for the right reasons and keep being awesome 🙂
eva foam is (poly)ethylene vinyl acetate. no chlorine to be found, and most of the safety org have found it to not be a carcinogen. (at least, so far. this may change some years down the road.)
so its probably 'safe' for this use, in regards to what's in it, but yes, definitely adhere to the ventilation rules.
i just bought an ender 3 and seen the laser engraver upgrade. I was diving deeper in it and found this video. It's a nogo for me now. thank you!
Great Information as always. As an owner of a K40 CO2 Laser I can confirm, how terrifying they can be. Never letting it run unattended and frequently checking it. Also lots of materials I would not cut without air directly aimed at the focus point.
Timely video, we have have a laser cutter in our public library makerspace. I'm asking my staff to watch this video. The laser cutter is fully enclosed, but this video is still full of great information. Thank you!
You've basically confirmed all of my thoughts on the cheap lasers. I had a K40 for a little while - but to be honest, the amount of time, money and effort I would have had to put in to make it run properly and safely just wasn't worth it for me.
My wife suggested one of the new generation of diode lasers as an alternative. I passed.
I need me a wife that suggests I buy 'one of the new generation diode lasers'
Now THAT'S a wife worth keeping 😂
@@NotMe-ej9yz The new generation diode lasers are the ones this video is very specifically saying to NOT buy due to the dangers. I recommend a wife like mine that had me buy the largest OMTech CO2 laser with full enclosure and extraction we could afford. It was delivered by a semi truck.
I have a Laserbox pro, partly based on your recommendation. The other day I put masking tape down on my wood to protect it which ended up peeling off a bit and caught fire when the laser passed over it. Luckily I was watching and the fire burned itself out in about a second. If there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that when you’re using power tools, be safe. I’ve known too many old 3 fingered woodworkers to take chances with something as powerful as a 40 watt laser.
Nice video! this is one area where keeping the paranoia level high is exactly the right thing to do. have you considered doing a test of the laser glasses? Keep up the good work.
I can't recall the source but some people have tested them and found the provided ones to be lacking at best. Possibly styropyro
@@MakersMuse The goggles to me always felt like a workaround to an underlying problem, that being a laser outside of a safety enclosure. They're at best going to protect the one person wearing them, not curious people strolling by
@@MakersMuse You are correct, StyroPyro has done a video or two on those cheap "laser proof" goggles
@@iamdarkyoshi To be honest, I've no problem wearing the glasses even when the laser is in a case. The problem is that I don't particularly trust then to do the job.
I am so happy that you made this video! This problem is gettin bigger every year, so thank you for educating people on this!
So about that Creality Laser Module that *magnetically* attached to the side of a E3 3D print head and had no shroud.
Yeah no, that's just stupid dangerous and Creality should be ashamed.
@@MakersMuse honestly I was gob-smacked when I was that video on there own YT channel. I seriously thought this was some ill thought out Kickstarter :/
Great video. We just got a small mini laser to etch our logo into the wood products, and I started to design a vacum system with a hepa filter in it when I realized nearly all household vacs have them as a standard feature. and yardsale season is just around the corner. Again, great video. Thanks for the help.
If you are unsure about a material, look up the MSDS for it and scroll down to the heat, fire, and toxicity.
BTW, EVA foam appears to be safe and also contains no egg, dairy, wheat or peanut products, by-products or derivatives. 🤣
I know other foams are a big no. Some contain cyanide when burned (Polyurethane foams is one of them).
As always, do your own research.
MSDSs overcover and make it hard to tell irritants from the really nasty stuff. They're OK as a starting point or if you're planning on being overly conservative anyway, but if you need to know the real hazards you'll probably need more than that.
@@sealpiercing8476
For any shared spaces (maker spaces, workplaces, etc) you really want to be over conservative anyway.
Having been involved with industrial laser welding I would agree with your analysis of the hobby range available. I attended several days trainig by professionals to cover just the safety issues. That training required successful completion of assessments leading to certification. So I really am surprised by the lack of support information and basic safety ,relying on the user alone to void potentially dangerous situations. Many adverts show a young child watching the process! I was considering getting a laser but am now more than convinced that the hobby market has much work to do.
Another safety issue is when a laser loses usb comms and just stops w/ the beam still on. I'm looking at you Comgrow Z1.
General rule of thumb, if it’s synthetic or has synthetic glues, be very careful with it, and at all times have full ventilation. And always have high-end eye protection. The harm is too detrimental to not be very cautious.
Ty for yt 4 censoring me then giving me that fake like. It made my day. I’m so happy now 😊😊😊
An alarming find I had while doing preliminary research for which materials can be laser cut before even thinking about buying a laser cutter was ABS plastic.
It releases cyanide gas when laser cut apparently.
OK tried to find a trustworthy source on that cyanide claim and can't. So, I guess take it with a grain of salt.
HCL is definitely one of the killers during house fires so that's quite possible.
Look up the structure, it has no chlorine, it can't release HCl. It could release styrene and and cyanide tho which are pretty bad for you
Thanks for this honest and informative video Angus
Are there any certifications people should look for when buying lasers or 3d printers? Not that any of these Chinese laser/pienter companies would put any effort in this. But all lasers sold eu stores should probably have some certification?
I appreciate your concern for the community. You are awesome dude.
This should be required viewing for all new to laser cutting. Done correctly laser cutting is so much fun and can make really great stuff but knowing all the pitfalls before hand could save people a lot of hassle.
I am building my first laser engraver, this is perfect timing for me Angus. Thank you for helping me!
If the person does their homework, keeps safety in mind and treats the laser with respect, you can do some amazing things with it.. I have 2 engravers and I have engraved a lot with them..It's the people that don't do any of the aforementioned that cause problems.. IE engraving or cutting a vinyl record.. leaving the engraver unattended.. and so on.. If you are interested in owning one.. Do the research and treat it with respect, you'll be fine.
"If the person does their homework" is the key. Just a tiny bit of research should point anyone to the fact that there's a LOT to learn, but my concern is someone getting a cheap kit for Christmas and just firing it up in the living room without even realising that it's not safe.
@@MakersMuse I totally agree, it can go sideways in a hurry if you are not on top of it.. Education is the key and know what you are working with and the materials you are using..
I really appreciate this video. This is one tool that I have always wanted and did not want to spend the money on a co2 laser and never understood the full enclosure. I honestly thought it was just to increase the price. I have looked into several of the hobby lasers and almost pulled the trigger a couple of times. I will now wait and save up for a proper laser cutter. Thank you
Honestly, this video is a bit cringy because while Angus makes valid points about safety and the way these products are marketed, many aspects could be applied to FDM printing. RESIN printing, FDM printing, CO2 laser and diode laser, all need enclosures and air extraction and fume filtering. All these non pro machines are sold at rock bottom price but don't have the bare minimum options to even operate.
For example, diode lasers (which were initially sold as light engravers) can't really cut anything without burning if you don't have compressed air blowing at the focus point. And of course, you're going to need a honeycomb grid and a steel plate under it to support the cut material. And (mag) clamps to stick it to the frame. And of course, enclosure, air extraction AND activated charcoal filtering. Oh and did i mention the software side of it? [Insert advert here for buying LightBurn] All these add up to way more than the base 300 USD these machines are sold you for.
Disingenuous and dangerous? Yes and yes. But it's the same as resin printing, where marketing materials never mention the hurdles of post processing and hasards of resin handling or the joys of FDM printing anything structural with engineering materials (ABS, Nylon, HIPS) without mentioning the need for proper enclosure, temperature control and air extraction and filtering. So invest the time to make your own research prior to buying yes (online communities offer great support for that), knowing that the price bare machines are sold to you is only a fraction of the cost of operating them safely and efficiently.
That said, i would never go back to the time where all the wondrous technologies of the fablab were gatekept by the industrial design sector just for safety concerns over main consumer market. Metal working is hazardous and dangerous for your sight and lungs, woodworking is the same for yor lungs and stumpy nubs and aerosol use of any substance has to be done with proper EPI equipment. Those desktop technologies have their own issues but are no different than the already existing ones. Don't shy away from them but never get careless or complacent.
I got one of these cheapo diode lasers a while back, It was total nightmare, the wires were too short for any cable management so depending on the XY position there was a risk of it cutting its own wires, the instructions weren't english & the provided software was janky af. The amount of work it takes to get this machine working "safely" simply isn't worth the time or risk. Definitely avoid.
Thanks, have been looking to get one for 3 months and realized that i would need a cover box and vented extraction to use safely around others indoors. Now, i have a better knowledge to be safe about material selection.
Thank you, Angus. Long ago I dabbled in this before I really knew what I was doing. There is a huge difference between eye-burning open machines and the enclosed pro ones. I recently got a K40 "budget" laser and let me say I have very mixed feelings about it.
Very fair, the technology is so useful but... Much more scary than 3d printing (although resin comes close!)
@@MakersMuse oh for sure, I stopped resin printing outright it creeped me out too much. I hope people see this and think twice about the open machines but I sadly am very doubtful too.
@@MakersMuse Due to health issues, Resin printers and Laser cutters have been on my list of "wants but". I'll probably never get either of those. Your videos are constant reinforcement that I am making the right move. Thanks.
Yeah all valid points. I spent an extra $300 to make an enclosure with 2020 extrusion for my Atomstack x20 pro. It also has a blower to exhaust outside.
I keep seeing videos about those cheap lasers pop up, and every one just looks so dangerous. Like someone could just walk into the room with it running, look at it and get permanent vision damage.
During 90% of operations the beam is super unlikely to bounce off, but that scene with the cup engraving is wild because the shiny metal would absolutely be sending laser radiation out into the room. Your eye tries to "fill in the gaps" with damage too, so you wouldn't really even know till its way too late.
As a matter of fact, I keep an extra pair of (ANSI certified) laser safety glasses at the entry to my shop in case a visitor pops in while the laser is on.