What YOU had to say about Laser Cutter safety
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2022
- I recently uploaded a video sharing my concerns on the glut of cheap open-frame, diode laser cutters hitting the market. However, there was so much additional insight in the comments of that video from the community that I felt it important to discuss them!
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Now I desperately need a safer open laser engraving machine
LaserX
@@MarioWexler-np9ug flyingbear
This video is awesome! I was very inspired by your video. I am currently considering making an open laser cutter. The safety issues mentioned in your video will be something I focus on, especially fire prevention! I would want to make a safer open laser cutter and raise the industry standard!!!
Roomies and I have been fiddling with the idea of getting a laser cutter for projects for a little while. Been a long-time watcher of your channel and saw your last video on this. Thank you for calling our attention to all these dangers so we didn't buy a potentially dangerous bit of equipment without knowing it! Lots more research and saving to do now so we can get something that works without burning down the house or filling it up with deadly fumes!
Depending on where you live, check and see if there is a maker/hackerspace around you that may have the tools and ventilation/safety/etc already set up. It does save money and can connect you with other makers who would be good sources of experience and knowledge.
Every laser, regardless of price or features, is potentially dangerous. It is user education that can make it safe.
Also I would advise drawing up some sort of contract for when one or all of you move away, it'd suck to invest in something only to lose access to it due to having to move away or something. Money and friends is always a risky mix!
@@brendandor Good advice in general, though that will be the least of our worries. We don't rent, we purchased the house together. Been great friends for over a decade as adults so not a huge issue :)
@@Paul-rp7nt I wish I had friends that close
I take my eye safety very seriously - I always engage safety squints when dealing with questionable tools!
Look at laser with remaining eye ;) haha
Safety squints, double rubber, and mother on speed dial is the only way to go.
Better yet, make an enclosure with interlock. It is mandatory on professional systems. and a guide dog is way more expensive.
@@MakersMuse and if you're blind just use your hands to see :)
This is why I recommend your channel to everyone that comes to my 3D printer repair shop; unlike manly other people - you're willing to tackle issues that are unsafe. Massive respect, as there's few of us left who are willing to warn others of the dangers.
I started with a cheap sub $100 laser a while ago, I upgraded over time and have gained experience with both co2 and diodes alike. Honestly, in the beginning I did not have knowledge or proper understanding of laser safety. At the time, I think part of issue is the community. Forums and videos always portrayed diodes as a toy and nothing more. You won't be batting with the big boys unless you get a co2. My first 5W diode was a real eye opener, a belt failed and it burned through my workshop wooden table. A simple $300 laser almost costed me my home. The prospect of burning my house down honestly made me realize how I really should have treated it like a "real" tool. I now have a Jtech 14W as one of my main work horses, I spent about a equal amount to have a proper setup made. People don't realize the power these things put out, and I still see some of the toyish outlook on these diode lasers present. I just hope more companies and people start to understand the possible danger some of these can pose.
I don't own a laser but, I work in the printing industry and we're surrounded by diode lasers. Our imagesetters and print engines use diode lasers and they're certainly not toys. When Kodak shipped us a new diode laser for our Trendsetter the 6"x6" part was crated and palletized. I believe the "retail price" was $37k US. I know we weren't cutting through acrylic but we were imaging 26 23x35 (A1 ish) plates every hour 20+ hours a day 6 days a week.
I almost got a laser cutter mount for my ender 3 that allows you to switch between laser cutting and 3d printing til i saw your first vid on this. Also mind you i have my printer in my bedroom so this wouldnt have been a good idea
It's not something I'd do that's for sure!
@@MakersMuse yea at first you think its a cool idea to be able to utilize a printer for more than just printing but at least I didnt go through with it since I am still here 😅
100% was thinking the same. Once had a 3D printer that wasn't open frame so really liked the open frame of the ender for ease of accessibility. Don't think sleeping with safety glasses on is gonna cut it.
@@Chrazzari oh it'll cut ;) but you might die earlier if you do that.
I was looking at getting the same thing for mine but never got around to it. I understand that lasers are dangerous but I had no clue how dangerous or unsafe it could be. I'd be interested to see a video on resins and filaments. The amount of people who think it's safe to print ABS an enclosed room is crazy. I have a vetilated enclosure and just getting a whiff of abs starts to make my head hurt. I had to give up resin pouring as I started to become allergic to it.
Another reason to filter before venting is that if there is an air intake near your exhaust, you can end up poisoning yourself on your own exhaust gases. When I used to dive we had issues with boats having their air intakes for the compressors being too near the engine exhausts. The exhaust gasses would get compressed with the air in the tank and would cause significant issues at depth.
Still, the filtering Angus uses is mostly just wishful thinking. It's not enough to filter most of the dangerous chemicals and particles. Here where I live venting that stuff out with just a sketchy carbon filter attached would certainly be illegal. Even if you have professional filtering systems you might run into problems (our university workshop was closed because of the laser cutting filtering system that was not efficient enough).
@@bzqp2 that really puts it into perspective.
I purchased an anycubic printer that has a laser attachment. I have only used the laser once and never again. I was shocked by the lack of safety instructions and am so glad you have made these videos
i had looked at getting the same thing; so glad i didnt
probably came in a bag with a "don't put this on your child" symbol and other similar obviousness, just to make sure that the important information is drowned in the noise.
On the fire thing. I've always been astonished by the degree people trust 3d printer and CNC designs without position/rotary encoders of any sort. They put encoders in inkjets. They used to put encoders in dirt cheap mice. These don't have to be expensive things.
Completely onboard with the sentiments presented here.
I'm a technician at a university and students are are required to attend a training session before they are allowed to use our laser cutter. Even then, their work needs to be reviewed by us before it can be executed.
Its common for people to leave cut lines on top of cut lines, sometimes stacked several times. A laser traveling the same path on wood or something over and over can very easily cause ignition.
It's also reasonable if you aren't familiar with the program to assume that those kinds of mistakes will be accounted for in software, like spell check leading to lazy typing/proofreading habits.
Fellow University technician here, our 'training' was essentially a technician saying 'don't be a twat' and either way, everyone has access and does whatever because the PI's don't care about rules or safety. Does my head in. Anyway, hope you're well.
The dangerous thing is: to me, as an outsider, the points made seem very self-evident. I have the experience with dangerous tools (dangling upsidedown from a wire whilst handling a chainsaw isn't the safest job) to be aware that risk is often underestimated during work. and just enough experience with CAD software to know how easy those mistakes are.
But because those things feel so "that would never happen to me" most people (including me up to jist now) wouldn't consider them. Or consider them and then go "that would never happen to me".
@@KoroWerks my first thought was "couldn't you build in those parameters?"
Then I remember that, when working with a boom lift, the first thing we would do is cut a piece of wood to size to bypass the pedal switch.
To paraphrase a wise and well dressed man: convenience finds a way.
And then I also remembered the term "risk compensation": in some circumstances it is better to have less safety features and restraints, cuz having them in place will often, in those circumstances, lead to greater risk taking behaviour.
@@KoroWerks most cutting softwares on industrial machines do that, they check if there is no double lines anywere in the drawing
There's another way to use your laser cutter to decorate desserts: stencils! Cut cardstock or laser-safe plastic sheet, lay it on top of your cake, and sift cocoa, cinnamon, or powdered icing sugar over it, and carefully lift the stencil away. Multiple powders for different colors can give you amazing effects.
My father n law passed away from lung cancer that was attributed to the coating used on the saw blades at the shop he worked at for 40 years. At the time, it was thought to be safe.
I think about the VOC’s being released from the cutting and printing I do in my workshop. Taking up smoking may be a safer endeavor.
I’ve watched several Chinese sourced livestreams on YT promoting new laser machines. They almost always disregard PPE until it’s mentioned in the chat.
I’m having a hard time finding goggles on Amazon with a printed certification. Lots of 5 star ratings but that doesn’t mean a whole lot.
Great video, thanks!
I have been on the verge of buying a hobby laser for a year or so. And this video has really made me completely re-evaluate if and when to get one, in addition to where to set it up if I get one. Thanks, Angus, this is precisely why I trust your videos.
it's always cheaper to custom cut on nearest workshop most of the time anyways
11:17 another fun thing about IR is the pain receptors in your eyes don't notice it. I made a big IR spotlight a few years ago and could barely see the next day.
Thanks for the great videos Angus and definitely all the safety information provided in these videos on Lasers. I recently picked up an xTool D1 Pro 20W laser as well as the air assist, honeycomb bed, and enclosure. I will be sure to review the provided safety goggles and go purchase properly spec ones if they did not include any type of certification on the one shipped with the laser. I will either be buying a fume filter/extractor or making one before we get started using this new addition to our personal maker space.
I have watched you for years and I personally love the honesty, even if a product has flaws, maybe - for my application, it would work. BUT, knowing the facts - is the key. And I do put my eye and lung safety above the bucks it takes to make my gear safe. (sometimes as much or more than the tool) to be sure... But I am now well into my 60's and have all the parts I came into the world with. Because I respect the fact that I know so little of the intricacies' of the process's I use - with all this new tech.
Well done as always!
Thank you for taking the time to make this. I was just offered a desktop laser cutter for review and started to do some research...it's pretty incredible that companies are selling these products with Class 4 lasers, no enclosures, and dodgy safety glasses. I think I'll take a pass on that...
I ran a hobby vacuum former and with that I used venting for a lot of materials. I can't imagine how bad the fumes would be if you're openly cutting stuff with a laser. Vids like this are a useful education and if 3D printers and laser cutters make their way into the classroom, vids like these need to be added to the curriculum.
I built a two fan venting system for my 3D printer, because even PLA outgasses significantly, especially if I need to use high temps. (not to mention polycarbonate)
The only safe(ish) plastic I have found was PETG.
I had my first offer from one of these companies recently asking to send me a laser engraver to make a video about and thanks to your previous video on the topic, knowing the risks and moral implications it made declining easy. I'm pretty clumsy and make dumb mistakes often, and I just don't trust myself not to send myself or someone else blind. So thanks for raising awareness!
Thanks for featuring my comment!
And just this week it happened again ordered pmma and got pc
Really appreciate you taking the time to make these two videos after having a 3d printer for some time now I was looking at these cheap laser engravers and didn't realise the danger definitely won't be bothering now cheers for the heads up.
Thank you for this video and the previous one on laser cutters/engravers. I'd done a little research on these and thought I'd found the ideal machine, yes it was an open frame one.
I'd also sourced the extraction and filtration system as well as I'm aware of the danger from fumes. Plus I'd like to not pollute the air if I can avoid it.
BUT .... having watched your videos on these I have decided instead to play things safe and NOT get one, even though I had included extraction and basic filtration in my costings. (Incidentally extraction and filtration was SOOOOO much more expensive than the machine)
So now I've joined my local makerspace for the year (they have everything I need and more there) AND saved money. Plus I can learn from others there that have experience.
Thank you for your honest reviews, thoughts and opinions and especially for making and sharing such great content. I watched most of your 3d Printer reviews, along with a few other channels, to help inform my choice of 3d printer.
Please keep doing what your doing, being honest and flagging concerns and safety issues, basically being genuine. Maker's Muse is a channel whose content I feel that I can trust. As you say, many other channels are only seeking to grow their channel and won't address issues if they are negative.
Thanks again.
Great follow up! Thank you for covering this! Someone needs to and I am glad it was you Angus!
Great points about filtering before venting. In addition to those, my vent fan had a leak in the hose after the filter. Had I not been filtering the fumes first, that would have just vented into the shop space. A basement makerspace I was with vented their laser out to the parking lot, and the fumes just accumulated back down into the shop.
Also, my wife an I have an agreement to never leave the laser running unattended. I've seen too many fires from lasers at makerspaces and home shops. Plus a fire extinguisher is cheap. And replacing the components or the whole laser from the use of a fire extinguisher is still better than the cost of replacing a whole shop/house/makerspace building after a fire.
Little surprised the halogen flame test didn't get mentioned!
Surely I can't be the only one who does that with every unknown material before running it through a laser cutter!
goddamn it I had it in the edit but seemed to have skipped my mind last minute. Pinning your comment on the last vid!
@@MakersMuse I was so very nearly internet famous! :)
So long as the message gets out there.
This series of videos is really helpful and important. I would consider myself fairly well informed and focused on safety but the dangers of these lasers didn't really occur to me. I had been considering getting a diode laser or building my own to add to a maker space I share with my kids. These concerns all make total sense and definitely made me reconsider this. I think I'll stick with tooling I know better like cnc routers instead. Thank you for always sharing your real thoughts on products and looking out for your audience.
I just want to thank you so much for doing the "right thing" with recognizing that the real problem is the manufacturer's quality issue, not the country of origin. I think the way forward is to require more stringent quality control for products being sold thru-out the world. Thanks for the video.
I've been using Lasers for a decade now, and your videos on this matter are very good and hit right on the heart of the matter. I took many months deciding the correct laser to get for my use, and it is a huge machine that takes up a large chunk of my conservatory. I NEVER let it run without me in the room and actively monitoring it, and even then I avoid using it while home alone.
You are correct- people don't know the dangers to even begin respecting them because of these unscrupulous, dangerous sellers.
You should see if you can do an interview with StyroPyro. The dude has been talking about cheap Chinese lasers and goggles and the safety issues for years. He would be a great resource if you did a follow up to this video. Great video and glad you actually are one of the decent youtubers who cares about doing it safe!
Your video about this was very timely for me. I had every intention of getting one of those laser cutters for christmas and I have now abandoned that idea totally.
Please keep up the reviews Angus. This is an important topic, and the more makers/influencers talk about these VERY REAL safety concerns FIRST, the better. Tossing an FFF printer on a desk during an unboxing and going-for-broke is one thing, but doing this with CO2/Laser cutter/engravers is like whacking a Sword-Like-Object on a table - eventually someone is going to get hurt, and badly. If it's your eyes, that's permanent.
Safety issues have been the case for FFF printers (thermal runaway), resin printers (UV and resin/VOC exposure) and now, laser engravers and cutters. This lack of safety would never fly in a modern industrial space, but somehow we're expected to do it in a home setting, without regards to family, pets or neighbors.
Speaking more into what you discuss at 7:00 - Nearly all *are* Chinese-produced, and safety is not their concern - fake "colored plastic LOL" goggles aren't the only time that they show that. If the companies supply an unsafe unit, and a SM influencer promotes and says they are safe, the company is not the one making the claim. So for the cost of the device (or only shipping if they want it back) they can flip huge numbers and make a large profit, and are blameless for any health and/or safety effects precisely because they didn't make the claims or demonstrate it used unsafely.
Not sure if someone already mentioned this but cheap LED lasers don't just emit the wavelength they should but they usualy also emit IR light due to use of poor quality IR filter or none at all, which can be dangerous so full spectrum protection glasses are recommended. TH-camr Brainiac75 did few videos on this topic. One was "Issue with green laser pointers" and the other "Failing safety glasses".
This issue is specific to 532nm green lasers, and is a side effect of how they work (532nm green lasers aren't really diode lasers, they use an 800nm IR pumped crystal laser which then gets sent through a frequency doubler - since that process isn't perfect they can kick out left over IR laser light if not properly filtered). The direct diode 405nm lasers that seem to be nearly universal in the cheap open frame diode laser cutters don't have this particular issue (instead the 405nm wavelength is itself not very visible). From what I understand it isn't even as common in green lasers as direct green laser diodes are starting to become a thing, although I would probably suggest assuming additional IR output from them anyway incase its a mislabeled 532nm unit.
Been watching for years. Thank you for all the content and putting this kind of information out there, I really appreciate it. Keep it up brother. 😁👍
A friend of mine used to build laser plasma cutting systems in the kilowatts, capable of cutting inches of steel. He said he used thin sheets of acrylic as 'feeler gauges' to check for stray emissions.
This was a great follow up video.
Thanks again for this follow up video. Very important information
Thank you for these two videos. I mostly understood the risks when I was looking into a cheap open-frame cutter (I needed a cutter with a larger build volume than those cheap CO2 enclosure ones), but after watching these videos I dont really think I actually NEED a laser cutter; rather I was just enamoured with the idea of them.
As an alternative to a laser cutter I have been considering getting a CNC router instead. I was wondering if you had ever thought about doing a video on them as an alternative to laser cutters and manual tooling methods (band saw, etc)? Would be interested to hear your thoughts on the entry-level CNC space.
Aussiegrif, I have approached this from the opposite direction in that I have been using CNC routers for a number of years to cut both large and very intricate parts in plywood, PVC, HIPS and brass with no problems other than the time is takes to cut very intricate shapes with tiny cutters to avoid breaking them. I have often thought of moving to laser cutting, but the problems highlighted in this and the previous report have put me off this route. I think that I will stick to CNC routers with a simple vacuum and cyclone dust separator to get rid of the particles thrown out by the cutter. This seems a much better option for the jobs that I undertake.
I got my first 3D printer a few years ago, and a few months ago I thought about buying a cheap laser cutter as well. I even had one selected and in my shopping cart. I knew just enough to be a little concerned with the open frame nature of the device and didn't feel anything like comfortable with the questionable nature of what they were advertising. I decided to do a little more research before going ahead with the purchase and what I discovered caused me enough concern that I finished up never completing the purchase. Your first video came along after that and it more or less confirmed the issues I had started to become concerned about.
My knowledge is probably above average when it comes to physics, engineering, electronics and design though I make no claims to being really great in any one area. The fact that these devices can be purchased for just a few hundred bucks on Amazon, Ali express or any number of online hobby/electronics retailers is concerning. I probably will end up getting something eventually, but only after a lot more planning, and it won't just be a few hundred bucks, and it definitely won't be an impulse purchase.
As George Carlin used to say: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." In this case not knowing what they don't know could lead to serious and life changing results.
I was thinking something similar as your first paragraph, and even had gone as far as selecting a laser cutter (actually it was one of those multi-tool ones that could change function after swapping a couple of components out, but still.
Animals, pets, not trusting myself not to make stupid mistakes. All reasons that i decided to not carry through with the purchase after taking a little time to think before hitting the purchase button. I went and got myself a plain FDM printer instead.
Thank you for your honest reviews!!! they are actual life savers. I wanted to build a diode laser etcher based on pictures of these open desktop etchers and Arduino (same as my first 3d printer - based on stock ender 3) but i need to do a lot of research. I have decided to buy a vinyl sticker cutter (old school blade type) that will do the same job for the purposes I need.
I watched both videos, and I still bought a laser module for my 3D printer.
Here is why. I need to test designs fast. And waiting for an open slot at my 2 local laser cutting people isn't always viable.
I only cut cardboard, solid cardboard.
The room is well ventelated, and the machine is placed right next to a window and a fan to extract the fumes and particulates.
Only I am allowed inside that room.
Once I hit cut, I leave.
I have a webcam monitoring the print, so I am safely away from the printer.
The mains box is 2 steps away from me.
I am recieved this 2 days ago, and I am learning slowly, and step by step, because the manufacturer left me with ZERO basic instructions on use, materials {I got a sample pack without instructions}.
So here I am again, rewatching videos to ensure safety, and protecting my eyes, home and livelihood.
Definitely best video you have made!!! Thankyou!!! People need to made aware!! I'm sure you have just saved many peoples vision!
I'm teaching 2 courses (materials & manufacturing) for industrial design students. This week, I talked about the fact that phosgene is a precursor to isocyanates which are a key compound in making PUR (polyurethane). *When I asked if sb. knew anything about the dangers of phosgene, I only got blank stares...*
Thanks for the video.
Good you are talking safety. Got myself an open laser system.
It is so simple to fit a box around them. Thin plywood can be clamped in between the footplates and the frame. That makes two reasonably stable sides. Fit in two other plywood pieces between them and put a lid on it - presto: a box which protects from laser reflections. Drill a circular hole in the rear plate, fit a fan in and plug an exhaust pipe in.
Material for less than 60$ should do the job.
Also got myself a proper bottom plate and a webcam to monitor the process and to align pieces using the options in Lightburn.
So Angus.. first time i ever comment, i hope you have the time to reply, cause i wanna tell you, and everyone else a story.
I remember a year or so back when i got my ender 3 s1. I got it because it was due getting a laser as a hot swap for the sprite extruder. I didn’t know anything about lasers, but it being modular tempted me and i viewed it as practical and exciting to be able to engrave. However, i found it difficult to find, and i soon after forgot about it. I am very glad i did. After christmas this year i fell into the trap of Longer 3D, by the help of a youtuber. I was investigating laser cutters as a means to make templates for my woodworking router.. i saw it as a cheap option to a cnc. I bought the laser (Ray5 10w) after watching many reviews regarding lasers and their cost to performance ratios, and I recieved it yesterday. Whilst awaiting its arrival, i started looking in to what i actually had bought as i was searching around on youtube for tips and tricks on how to operate a laser. If I’d need something else perhaps. I joined facebook groups and other communities. At this point, despite being a seasoned craftsman, i was not aware of what i had bought. After i found a few videos, yours among them, i was terrified. NONE of the communities had any pinned information about laser safety, longers website and community had limited hidden information, and many youtubers does not even mention the potential risks of operating a laser, and the actual costs.
After looking around I started buying more accessories to further increase the safety of the machine, such as a steel bottom plate, honeycomb grid, air assist to help with the cutting etc.
As i went further down the rabbit hole i felt a bit of anxiety.. what had i spent my hard earned money on, and what would it cost for me to operate this machine safely?
The machine itself was expensive, adding in the air assist, honeycomb, fans, the need for an enclosure, cameras etc. more than doubled the price. If you dont know this, you might end up with a product you shouldnt and cant use.
I am lucky, i have a big garage, and savings to be able to make it safe enough, but i wholeheartedly agree with you - this is not a product you can sell to the masses without telling them what it is, what they should expect from buying one in terms of cost, and what safety measurements ALWAYS needs to be in place.
As I told you, i got my laser yesterday - it is placed on a shelf for now. Many thanks to you for this - and I really am grateful that you made this video.
Before I even build the thing I have made a laser health and safety checklist that needs to be fully checked even before assembling it.
1. I bought new laser goggles which are due arrival 25.th of january. Freemascot, certified goggles with od6+, in the proper wavelength (something i was completely unaware of before) with certification from eu.
2. Buying a proper fan for ventilating fumes. This was done today.
3. Building an enclosure (is due)
4. Buying a webcam to look at whats happening inside the enclosure during engraving/cutting (is due)
5. buying a fire extinguisher with a wall mount in the near vacinity of the laser (already done
6. printing a filterbox for vacuum filters to take care of particles going in to the fan. (Currently printing)
7. Make a start up laser operation checklist that is always visible in front of the laser including things like locking doors, check that you will always wear your glasses etc.
8. Reading the instruction manual multiple times before operation.
9. Make a list of all materials that should never even be close to the laser, and hang it up on the wall beside the laser.
That being said, and soon done, I should be safe from a hobbyists perspective. But the simple fact that I researched this after purchase is what scares me, and is what I believe is your point. It terrifies me, and I have such deep respect for that tool now. I should have had this knowledge at the point of purchase, and the manufacturers of these machines should be the ones informing you BEFORE you purchase so you dont end up with a potential scar for life - not some random youtuber, regardless if its a popular, sane one like yourself.
But yes, like one of the commenters said, like with any other tool, you need to know what you’re dealing with and how to operate it. This is a new tool for many, and it bears no resemblence to any thing you find in shops and is not common for people around you, so your source of information regarding its use is in most cases from the manufacturer or the internet. That complicates things.
Anyways, thank you again for making these videos. They are paramount for safety. I am subscribed for life.
Great follow up Angus. Keep up the awesome work my friend.
Thank you for making these videos I was pretty close to getting a cheap laser cutter a while back and im so glad I didn't
Trotec has a great series of laser hacks videos. The one about using wet paper towels under acrylic to prevent flare-ups was really handy.
Thank you for making this video, and the previous one. I was thinking about buying one of these desktop lasercutters, but I'll now just go to my local makerspace or try to use a vynil cutter (with a blade) to cut what I need.
Also, we just got a couple cheap open frame lasers, I was quick to forward a link to your first video. As you might expect, not one person had even considered that hazards of these devices. One is in a maker space, one in a classroom.
I very much appreciate the info in these videos and was wondering if you could you do a safety video on 3D printers?
Great points thank you for sharing this important information.
Since your video about the dangers of these machines I have refused to take them in anymore from our friends in Shenzhen. Thank you for covering this topic so well. Back to reviews on 3d printers ! and other tools around the shop :)
Thank you for making a follow-up video.
Great follow up! It might be nice if you could review some generic laser cutter and show your process in how to make it safe, by building an enclosure, ventilation system etc.
Coming up to 1m subs :) Thanks again for being a creator of integrity and for raising these important issues with the community.
You've convinced me to build an enclosure. I only use my Ortur 10w laser for wood but I'd like to cut acrylic some time. Maybe my airbrush fume extractor could pull double duty 🤔
Even reflections of these powerful lasers can damage or harm .thanks for all you do !
I'm a student worker at my university and I work in our makerspace. We have an epilog CO2 laser cutter that comes with a beefy filtration system.
Ultimately my job is to teach students how to use our equipment in a safe and efficient manner, and there are safety procedures that we must follow to ensure accidents do not happen. The laser cutter comes with a fire suppressor and instantly shuts off the laser the moment the lid is opened. We also have an extensive sheet listing the banned materials. If someone has a material that we have not cut before and is not on either the banned or approved list, we would look up the MSDS and other sources of burning information before we consider using it in the laser.
So when I saw that "open air" laser cutters were coming to the market, I couldnt fathom how these were allowed to exist. I'm sure we will hear in the news pretty soon all the accidents that happens with them.
Great stuff!
Thank you!
Regarding the 'Why would you care about what you are venting outside?' comment: It is not only out of respect for the neighbours and out of care for the environment. In plenty of places it is actually regulated what you can freely vent and what not, just as you cannot dump everything down the drain. Obviously hard to prove, but if somebody ever complained about that nasty smell coming from your vent, there's a good chance for more trouble than just a disgruntled neighbour
Thanks for making safety the focus!
Great input on venting outside. I was venting outside for a bit but invested in a filter system because I didn’t want to be blasting smoke into my neighbor’s window. I generally cut plywood so it’s “wood smoke” but anyone who cuts a lot of material can attest to how much smoke is generated. It’s important for me to take car of my health but also be thoughtful to those around me. There’s also a risk that you can be reported for creating a nuisance if the smoke and fumes become problematic. I’d rather avoid having people knocking on my door because they feel my hobby is negatively impacting their quality of life. Obviously, the more property you live on, the less likely there will be an issue-my neighbors are spitting distance. They say the best way to have good neighbors is to never loan tools. Maybe we should add never let your tools affect your neighbors to the list. Thanks for the video.
It's not only about neighbors - depending on the wind the fumes can easily decide to come back.
With the materials it seems like a lot of companies don't know what they're selling or maybe even making. My girlfriend works with a laser cutter in her lab. When she was trying to source plastic (I can't remember what she uses) only one place of the many she contacted could actually say here's the chemical structure of this plastic and here's what we'd expect as impurities. So yeah be careful out there sourcing stuff and maybe double check before you do anything!
I'm an owner of several laser cutters and have been doing it for almost 5 years now and this things are no joke, first of all, I wouldn't even think of buying a diode laser cutter because they have too many safety issues to deal with and definitely this things should not be sold to people that have no knowledge on how the tech works, I only purchase CO2 lasers because I have a warehouse with proper ventilation and there are not houses nearby, on the video it was already mentioned that CO2 lasers are less prone to cause eye injuries, you can only get hurt if you start to calibrate it since you have to open the lid and in part it is true but the light the dot emits it's very bright and you can easily get lost just watching it, a good piece of advice is to watch it with your smartphone, in that way you're safe of the very bright light, the best advice i can give to people is that you should never leave these machine unattended, we already burned one machine, costing 5000usd, in my case we could repair it, but it's like Theseus ship now, all the interior is almost new, we salvaged what we could and that because we left it unattended just 5 minutes, in our case the extraction fan failed and the smoke accumulated inside the machine and that was what most probably caused the fire, so shit always can happen, if there was one person just watching the thing nearby we could have saved a ton of money, I hope my experience can be of use for someone watching here.
I agree with your general stance on this, but a couple of points.
I bought one of the cheap K40 type laser cutters to use at work and added basic safety features, like a lid interlock for the laser PSU. The safety officer objected to my replacing the orange tinted acrylic window with a transparent one, but I pointed out that it was designed to cut acrylic anyway and that orange was a filter for UV, not IR. If somehow a collimated beam should contact the viewing window, the damage to the window would be the indication/warning of a problem. He also objected to the piece of Aluminium I'd placed in the base of the cutter, to cover up all the holes (so the fume extraction system would work properly). The Aluminium was far below the focal point and even if it had been an effective IR reflector (see below), the beam would be greatly dispersed by the time it had come up to even the cutting bed level. Even paper placed in the base of the enclosure was unmarked by the beam dispersal at that distance.
Many metals are poor IR emitters (and therefore reflectors). The mirrors used in a CO2 laser typically have a reflective surface (may also be solid) of Copper (surface oxidation problems), Gold, or Molybdenum. If you've ever used a thermal imaging camera, you should have noticed that shiny metal surfaces can appear black. A polished stainless steel tank, far too hot to comfortably touch, can read as below ambient. It's a mistake often made by users of the cheap IR thermometers. A shiny metal surface may greatly under-read due to its low emissivity. A piece of tape or other high IR emissivity material may need to be placed on the surface to get a valid reading. More sophisticated instruments may allow you to set an appropriate emissivity factor for the material being measured.
Thanks for this video. This is something I'm considering adding to my arsenal of maker bitz but there's so many models ranging from cheap hobby E400 to industrial entry E12k+ and everything in between with zero guidance
I agree with all this safety. I don't get why more of the ' cheap ' cutters don't advertise hood kits and list what they sell that goes with it. Why not go for a second sale by offering ( possibly like Amazon ) a while you are looking at their product? I would think about getting the case to go with a motherboard when looking at PC parts, so why not look at the case recommended to go with an ' open frame ' laser cutter?
The hood really should be included with the laser, since it's such an important safety element. A computer is safe to operate without a case (aside from maybe breaking a PCIe header on your motherboard, since the GPU is designed to be supported by the case), but a laser cutter really isn't
In the local makerspace we have a CO2 laser cutter. It is one of those relatively inexpensive ones. But it came with a pretty decent enclosure. Gladly there are lots of electrical engineers and electronics experts there, so we retrofitted a whole bunch of safety measures the machine just did not have from the factory, and we brought the machine’s electrical innards up to code (-ish). We built a pretty powerful extractor, mechanical and electronic interlocks…the works. Now the machine works a treat. There is a printed list of allowed materials placed on the cutter, plus very clear warnings on which materials NOT to cut. Only people who received instructions on operating the thing as well as how the machine is built, how the cooling system works etc are allowed to do stuff with it. I know of makerspaces that have added a lock to their cutters’ power switches or control box that can only be opened by people who have the right key fob. People get far too complacent around lasers IMO.
People should not be afraid of them or anything - but a healthy dose of respect is definitely required.
Thank you for your strong morals.
Ever since I got into 3d printing and stuff I wanted to have a laser cutter/engraver and a cnc next to my printers to give me more options when it comes to making parts for various projects. You expressed pretty much the same concerns I had about what can you burn and what you shouldnt but my approach was allways "will this make my wife stay out of my workshop?". Sounds dumb, I know, but my wife is not watching videos with this kind of stuff and thinkering with different machines like I do, but she DOES run my 3d printers while im at work to get projects done in time. So with that in mind, with everything i do I allways think "how can I make this easier and safer" so my wife (for now, I.ll mention kids later once they come😁) can still be around my machines even tho she only wants to know the bare minimum about them to help me.
I put a small orange cone at the door of my garage while the laser is operating. I told her if the cone is there she needs to knock. If she knocks I hand her a pair of glasses she can put on to enter. Simple solution but it works well.
Thank you for this great video.
We have a laser cutter in a local hackerspace (makerspace). The kindergarten next door called the firefighters on us once, because someone was cutting a lot of wooden plates and our fume filter wasn't working properly. The exhaust was towards one of their windows.
I appreciate your brutal honesty. Too many "maker" or "tech" TH-camrs are just shills for these faceless Aliexpress fly by night CNC machines. I dont want to blame these Aliexpress companies too much as they make it possible for us not so rich makers to get into the CNC space. I find it quite irresponsible of these other TH-camrs or Tech guys to ignore the dangers or safety hazards for the sake of getting more free products and keeping things "upbeat".
The goggles - they do nothing! That's been my strongest feeling about all laser cutters/engravers and a prime reason I haven't even thought about getting one is that I'd have to buy specced goggles for myself, my wife, any visitors, and our pets. Alternatively, my thought would be to just use an opaque case with a lid interlock, LED lighting inside, and a PTZ webcam if I really needed to watch the work in progress.
Also - lots of shops do laser work to spec, and as pointed out, scroll saws are safer and cheaper.
EDIT: And this was actually my main point, eyesight is fragile, you only have two eyes, and the old saying goes "Welcome to the Laser Lab, please try not to look into the laser with your one remaining good eye."
I guess the key message with safety, is that if you don't do these things professionally, you will be much more likely to miss or ignore safety issues. Machines designed for the home should always be designed to remove the majority of risks which an industrial machine would not necessarily need to do.
hello
love your videos
thanks for keeping us safe
I actually stopped and made a cup of tea when Angus suggested it. Sounded like the perfect thing...
Someone on a discord that I am a part of was talking about getting into laser cutting as a side hustle and there was a race to get links to these video's into conversation! (I won.) Angus to the rescue!
I saw a paper which used pyrolysis-GC-MS to analyse chemicals given off by 3D printer filament when heated. A similar technique (though you of course want to burn the sample, which requires a higher temperature) could be used with prospective materials for laser cutting to assess their safety and suitability.
As for the PVC: There are also filaments (rigid and flexible) that are PVC based. Nasty stuff (HCl release), but the mechanics are incredible.
As for phosgene - it's a monomer for some polyurethanes (I'm sure it's used for expanding foams) and also as a precursor for polycarbonate.
Hey, thanks for listening to professionals. Many hobbyists think its uncool to hear what we have to say, we are too educated and lack the "vision" the hack community has (allegedly). Its mature to admit when you don't have all the answers, so thanks!
I'm put in mind of a sticker I saw on a laser cutter years ago: "WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining eye"
I have a creality 1.6W diode laser, came with green protection glass. Using the glass the light of the laser is absorbed as it is barely visible thru it. I think it does the job
I have access to Epilog laser cutters at my local maker space. The exhaust/fume collection system is MASSIVE.
I support your point of view.
So usefull and important video !
I've had an Ortur open frame laser for a while now. I'm getting an enclosure TODAY.
As an owner of multiple resin & fdm printers as well as a laser cutter, I'd love you to share your air extraction setup
I've experienced a case in my Job environment. A Supplier that cut pieces for us had another Customer from the Armaments Industry. They had to cut a material the Customer provided. No information about the material but the Workers got severly sick after some time. The Managers of this supplier ran rampant on getting a reimbursement. The Customer paid nothing, pulled every Job from the supplier, the material and moved to the next laser cutting company.
Ah....so much fun! may be all this will sink in...good luck M&M...
This is amazing information. Questions what video editor do you use? I am going to buy a lazer cutter and resin printer. What do you think about a resin printer?
I can confirm the colour of icing on the cake affecting settings - when I first got my laser, I played with macarons (same principle of caramelising sugar) and pink/red were harder to engrave than green or brown. I didn't have any blue ones but those would likely be hardest.
BTW in Europe if you want to sell food items you need a separate machine for processing them, it cannot be used for anything else to avoid contamination.
I've been a certified journeyman electrician for almost 30 yrs and have installed countless miles of PVC conduit with a hot box to make bends. Never knew I was dosing myself with Phosgene. I own a 100w CO2 laser with a 6" inline blower fan and vent it right out the side of my garage. Not taking any chances.
We just upgraded our laser from a prototype Salvagnini (4.5KW fiber laser) to a new one with 6KW! I can’t wait to see it come Monday morning. Not that our crew treats these things well. The last one was run into the ground and the lens caught fire causing a panic.
"You don't know what you don't know." 100% I've been saying since my teens.
Just catching up on your vids, so I'm a little late in the comments.
My only comment on this one is that you are 100% correct. Many people would just plop one of these down on the family room table, and start lasering. Along the way saying, "Hey, kids! Want to check this out?"
Why would they do it, because that is how the manufacturer shows it being used on their website. Anyone who has taken Marketing Psychology (or even Mass Psych) knows this.
So, yeah, if anything bad happens as a result of someone using a laser cutter as shown on the manufacturer's website, then that manufacturer absolutely is liable for what happens.
The 1981 MGM fire in Las Vegas killed 85 people mostly from smoke inhalation from burning conduit and the coating on wires, lots of PVC. After the fire the building codes were changed to require metal conduit for commercial buildings. Low voltage wiring such as coax and cat 5/6 have to be in metal couduit.
Excellent follow up to your previous video on laser safety. I have worked in places with a lot of hazards, such as a copper-uranium mine and radiation monitor calibration facility. Taking safety seriously has become second nature even if some people think I am over cautious. I have not received a single laser cut from my K40. I observe my laser engraving by using a webcam to my computer a couple of metres from the laser.
I've been looking into buying a home LASER engraver and, as someone with a technical background, who is well aware of both the hazards of LASER radiation, and of combustion chemicals, I agree that it's scary how little is mentioned about safety.
From many of the reviews I've seen you might well assume that ventilation is "optional".
And many suggest that the little orange plastic shield around the beam is sufficient to keep you safe.
I've also seen widely contradictory claims about which plastics are safe.
(And one or two manufacturers seem to be claiming that their LASERS can safely cut plastics that contain chlorine.)
Something else I would add is to emphasize your warning about different wavelengths requiring different safety precautions.
The company where I work leases a relatively large CO2 LASER which we use for marking on anodized metal.
It has an integral enclosure, with a glass top, which is opaque to CO2 wavelengths, and has an interlock.
And, with the correct glasses, blue diode LASERS are also relatively safe, if you follow reasonable precautions. (*IF*)
HOWEVER, XTools has recently announced an infrared LASER head for etching on metal at relatively low power.
(And I assume their competitors will release similar equivalent products.)
This used a "near-infrared" beam (I believe 1064 nm) at around 2 watts.
SO NOW WE HAVE A NEW TYPE OF DIODE LASER where....
- it's invisible so you cannot visually tell whether the LASER is on or off.
- most of the current eye protection won't block it properly.
To me this would seem to pose a HUGE risk for inexperienced users.
(Or those who are familiar with blue diode LASERS and to being able to see when the beam is powered on and where it's aimed.)