Fel
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LKLS | Reinventing "Spears" in… 2024 (DS3 Commentary)
When a man and a weapon love each other veeery much…
The Lothric Knight Longspear has always met a mixed reception. It got some praise for being a pretty (if unoriginal) “spear-like”. But it was always followed with ire: mocked for being a poise-antenna in a poiseless game, and failing to perform where spears often could. Perhaps unsurprisingly, few people ever understood the wonderful weirdness under the hood - the qualities that turn this simple pokey stick into Fromsoft’s crown jewel.
So, join me on a final, feverish rant as I explain everything you never wanted to know about my favorite weapon in Souls history.
FAQs:
- Q: 40 minutes wasn’t enough for me. Do you have anything else to share?
- A: Yup! Here is the “Longspear Bible”. In it, you can find the Poise Calculator I wrote for easier buildmaking, all my poise/hyperarmor testing data, and a list of combos/pseudocombos. Enjoy! docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YTQM-dCxyOlmVbVJQs-XUILsv10S-6BXX0QKkG8MgII/edit?usp=sharing
- Q: I wanna try the Longspear. What build should I make?
- A: There are a lot of options! Dex is best, but you’ll also want Endurance. The Longspear is a combo-based weapon, and depriving yourself of stamina means your combo game… finishes early. And nobody likes that.
Below meta, I would never go over 40 Dex - put the spare points in Endurance. My SL 90 build actually has 36 (!!!) Endurance for endless combos (also optimal for my beloved Valorheart). At meta I get 70-75 Dex for those post-60 Dex damage returns.
At 90 and meta, I’d also consider a Quality build (for weapon variety, plus guardbreaking options like offhand Demon Fist) or an elemental build (for shield chip and hybrid spellcasting).
- Q: So what IS the deal with the Pike?
- A: Think of the Pike as a weaker, shorter version of LKLS. It shares all the same properties, aside from the extra poise. It is worse on its optimal build (Dex) but its stat reqs make sense for Raw and elemental builds (which are often stat-starved). In fact, it is competitive damage-wise with LKLS on raw and elemental infusions, specifically! So if you can’t spare the stats, go with the Pike, baby.
- Q: Uh, why 2024?
- A: Sorry for the wait!! I crunched really hard in 2022 to get this video out before ER, but I stopped because it was compromising quality (and my sanity). Then ER took over for a while. It’s fine though, because revisiting DS3 in 2023/2024 gave me a lot of good clips and a different perspective.
- Q: Is this really your last video?
- A: Probably not! But it will be the last thing I make of this scale. ER isn’t the best game for this type of content (imo), and I can’t just make DS3 videos for the rest of my life. So I’ll have to wait and see what Fromsoft will cook up next.
- Q: Why do you call it the Longspear and not Long Spear lmao
- A: Longspears are a thing! And “Lothric Knight Long Spear” just looks wrong man, it totally violates the rules of adjective order. It’s DOSA-SCOMP, not DOOSA-SCMP! (Three people understood that and even fewer cared.)
Chapters and Music:
- PART 1: INTRODUCTION -
0:00 The Intro
🎵Colin Stetson - “All the Colors Bleached to White”
🎵Death Grips - “Death Grips (Next Grips)”
2:37 The Comparison
🎵Raffy Bushman - “First Man”
- PART 2: MOVESET -
4:59 The R2
🎵Asturias - “Reincarnation”
🎵Louie Zong - “Turnstile Hop“
8:47 The R1
🎵Okvsho - “Kamala’s Danz”
🎵Caldera - “Guanacaste”
🎵Coolio - “Gangsta’s Paradise”
🎵Louie Zong - “A Statue’s Lament”
🎵Louie Zong - “Power Line Boogie”
🎵Unknown Artist - “Nine Monks”
12:44 The Charge
🎵Marcos Valle Azimuth - “LP O Fabuloso Fittipaldi”
17:10 The… Other Charge
🎵“Attack on Vah Ruta” from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild OST
🎵“4 Minutes Before Death (Variation)” from the Ghost Trick OST
- PART 3: TACTICS -
19:47 The Advantage
🎵Indigo Jam Unit - “Danza Eterna”
🎵Tom Jobim - “Chega De Saudade”
🎵Mark Lockheart - “Jagdish”
23:13 The Fisha
🎵Asturias - “Soul Trees”
🎵Piero Umiliani - “Crepusculo sul mare”
- PART 4: SUBVERSION -
27:23 The Pain
🎵Aldo - “Random Jam 48”
🎵“Molduga Battle” from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild OST
🎥(Credit to Miles John for his animation “MBMBAM Animated: Guy Another Day”)
31:47 The Counter
🎵Norio Maeda Meets Tin Pan Alley - “Laia Ladaia”
🎵Laurence Mason - “Golden Brown” (Cover in the style of Dave Brubeck)
🎵“Kitsch” from the Smash Ultimate OST
🎵The Fearless Flyers - “Vespa”
- PART 5: FINALE -
38:24 The Point
🎵Aldo - “Random Jam 46”
🎵Ray Charles - “What’d I Say”
Cheers to @Ziggylata, @heyitstig6559, and @TheGameconomist for being the early LKLS champions.
Thanks to Prynne, Pinco, and everyone else for the coinvasions and testing help. Hugs to the Gyrm’s Respite for always supporting my enthusiasm for these games. And most of all, my love to RAB for her endless support as I played/worked too long to complete this project.
#LKLS #ds3tube #invasions
มุมมอง: 13 314

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ความคิดเห็น

  • @amcname8789
    @amcname8789 7 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Why the hell is this the most charismatic video I've seen on YT in a while? And why haven't any more videos been posted? :(

  • @chaoticstarfish3401
    @chaoticstarfish3401 19 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Recently started a playthrough. Looked up "Lothric Spear" because I felt I never gave enough love to the poking sticks in this game, and the Lothric knights' seemed my style. This video is a true blessing. Thank you, sir, for giving me more to look forward to in this nearing‐a‐decade‐old game, and even general info I never knew - I've always known about some actions cancelling staggers earlier than others, but never that it varied like that. Phenomenal work with production of this video.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 18 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Thanks so much, hope you have fun revisiting Lothric :)

  • @kivabelmont2612
    @kivabelmont2612 21 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I can't thank you enough for having ALL of the music used in the description. Incredible video!

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 20 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Thank you :) glad you liked it!

  • @lucianopfenninger4315
    @lucianopfenninger4315 21 วันที่ผ่านมา

    just returned to this video after falling in love whit the Mesmer soldier spear, and fukin hell... i forgot just how much we lost.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 20 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Yeah the messmer soldier spear looks really nice but it doesn’t really play anything like the LKLS haha

    • @lucianopfenninger4315
      @lucianopfenninger4315 20 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@Felicificity yea, sadly. over all elderings pvp, while verry fun when it works is... so much worse

  • @exclamationthing1122
    @exclamationthing1122 26 วันที่ผ่านมา

    i'm gazillion years too late for this video, but there's a little problem with this "wonderful" weapon: no matter what you ever try to do, anyone and anything with some sort of parry tool in hand/swap slot can and WILL parry you into oblivion, just for the mere attempt of using this spear i may not be the pvp pro, but please hear me out, when your weapon's attack THIS slow, that your opponent has time to un-2hand their weapon, take out their parry tool, start the parry animation and get you riposted, that is crossing out everything that this weapon has to offer using the spear as rollcatch machine is nice, but every duel with some sort of parry adept goes like this: you spawn, exchange a few hits, then the enemy takes out their parry tool - you stop in your tracks. all of your attacks are telegraphed, your WA is screaming "parry bait", the only option left - jumping attack. it may work one or two times, but then anyone with proper spacing just runs to backstab you, because no tracking all of that just forces you to switch to another weapon, a quick one, or slow, but unparriable one, literally anything beside that pokestick. even if you swap the spear back after a few good exchanges, nothing will stop your enemy to take out their scorned parry tool yet again correct me if i am wrong, i would actually LOVE to be in the wrong here, i truly adored this weapon even before this video, but playing with it again just made me remember why i abandoned it in the first place. truly, if anything could be done about its "parryability" i'd never let this weapon slip from my hands

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I mean it’s parriable yes, but it’s a problem you can overcome by mixing up your timings. Avoiding parries in DS3 is all about knowing 1) how to mix up your initial attack timings, and 2) which situations leave you with priority. LKLS can struggle with the first part if you play predictably, but it excels with the second part since there are so many ways to mix up your attacks and leverage the different kinds of hitstun it has. As an example, if someone is parrying, you can mix in the close range R1s which give enough priority to prevent parrying out of stun. On top of that, you can use an offhand for mixups or go for backstabs to discourage parries. The running attack is also a good option - it’s hard to parry since it’s so fast, but people are often tempted to try because it has multiple hitboxes like Charge. So they can open themselves up to a backstab if you run at them. If you need more advice, see the breakdown here at 30:15 for more info on ways you can mix up combos to specifically punish or dissuade certain options. I agree parrying is annoying to deal with, but it’s really more a problem with modern From games than with this weapon in particular. After the initial adjustment period, I haven’t had much of an issue with parries with this weapon. And it does enough burst damage to scare people out of parry attempts usually

    • @exclamationthing1122
      @exclamationthing1122 25 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@Felicificity ​ Thanks for reply, but in all honesty, while it's true that running attacks are lightning-fast, it doesn't stagger the victim on the first hit it seems. the guy i was dueling with just took the first hit of running R1 to the face and parried me after. Though, i have to admit, i am kinda at fault for using it just in duels, not invasions and probably that's why i get parried so often

  • @stewrat0420
    @stewrat0420 หลายเดือนก่อน

    dude this video is insanely good holy shit. I would have gone back to ds3 pvp right after this if not for ds2 pvp lol.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hard to compete with DS2 but I’m glad you enjoyed the vid so much :)

  • @dryxir3183
    @dryxir3183 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Awesome video man I subscribed. I can’t believe I stumbled across content like this I’m pumped to see more. One of my favorite games of all time. You also remind me of JM in the best of ways

  • @Gabriel_Blair
    @Gabriel_Blair หลายเดือนก่อน

    yeetomato posted its time to return for the ritual™️

  • @sleepy_Kirby
    @sleepy_Kirby 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'm playing DS3 since around 2-3 years know. My best friend who brought me into DS3, told me about your channel Fel. You probably know him from Pontiff Backyard (the world is small after all). Really liked you're LK Longspear Video too. Some more DS3 content in the future would be awesome. Keep it up! 😊👍

  • @Addy_The_Red_Baddy
    @Addy_The_Red_Baddy 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As a str int main i approve 🫡 that free aim piercing fang was CLUTCH! 🥵

  • @Addy_The_Red_Baddy
    @Addy_The_Red_Baddy 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great video. Off stoc drang hammer it is for me! Apply mad pressure punish heals with the true combo 😊 perfect looks hella fun

  • @Addy_The_Red_Baddy
    @Addy_The_Red_Baddy 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    last clip went insanely hard

  • @the__darkborne
    @the__darkborne 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Idk why i watched a 40min video about something i know very well and had almost in all my builds... That says a lot about the respect i have to you and the game. Hope you're doing well Fel.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thanks Dark, I’m doing well. And yes DS3 will always be something special! Hope you’re doing well too and thanks for watching

  • @TheMeanArena
    @TheMeanArena 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Players that like PVE but don't like PVP are forced to PVP which ruins the entire coop PVE experience. The invasion mechanic is old and tiring. Not looking forward to anymore of it in the future and will most likely pass on future titles if it exists. Dealing with it since 2009 is enough.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I’m sure the many many other co-op game developers out there will appreciate your investment in their products. In the meantime I hope Fromsoft continues to refine and improve on the one mechanic that makes their games truly unique in the industry.

    • @TheMeanArena
      @TheMeanArena 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Felicificity They get no money from me. I don't play those games.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      🆒

  • @theodorsebastian4272
    @theodorsebastian4272 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As a spear enjoyer in DS1 there just something about spear in DS3 that never quite clicks right for me. I suspect that the spear range DS3 is significantly shorter than in DS1 The winged spear and Silver knight spear in DS1 was a blast(Especially Silver knight spear which is my favorite weapon in Fromsoft history)

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Well the silver knight spear is definitely one of the longest they’ve ever made, flip-spear was definitely a terror for good reason! Winged spear not so much, but it has its place. I suspect the issue you’ve experienced in DS3 is that there are only a few spears that are sufficiently long to contest the true meta monsters (eg. straightswords). Spears like the Plow or Bident should help in that department, because they definitely rival the Silver knight spear in range. That said, the Longspear is another competitor in range, and it has much better damage potential too, so I’d still recommend giving it a shot!

  • @benedikt8731
    @benedikt8731 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Just started DS3 again from the beginning, spent 3 hours farming and finally got the spear to drop. Great video, thank you😀.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Oh man sorry it took so long! You can just buy it from Greirat as well, after his Irithyll raid. But glad you got it early so you can enjoy it for your full playthrough. Have fun!

  • @breakfastbrainz
    @breakfastbrainz 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I have no idea how to contact you Fel but if you don't already know, your LKLS ds3 video got blocked because of the Sesac situation. Fingers crossed, I'm pretty sure YT and them will negotiate something soon so I imo wouldn't worry too much

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thanks for letting me know!! Copyright hell is just one of YT’s most important historic traditions, and I’m delighted to take part. Hopefully it gets fixed soon. Very much appreciate the heads up

  • @これもお前のせいだな
    @これもお前のせいだな 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    数百時間愛用してた武器がこれほどまでに凄まじい愛と共に解説されると嬉しくなっちゃう エルデンリングではメスメル兵の槍がロスリック騎士の長槍の代替品としていい感じ

  • @elevenunderscore11
    @elevenunderscore11 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    god i miss when ds3 was new and the community was at its peak, i cant overstate how unnatural it feels, knowing its considered old now

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It’s been a good few months at this point, but I do revisit now and again. And every time I’m surprised at how immediately and undeniably fun it feels to play. Tight and responsive controls, fun combo game, intuitive hitstun and stamina management, and a strong sense of spacing and timing fundamentals that tie the melee combat together. Still feels amazing. And I imagine you still get plenty of activity in the covenant hub areas. I get what you mean though; the peak of the DS3 community does feel like a lifetime ago, especially since a good portion of it started before the pandemic. It feels like a totally different era of our lives when you think of it like that. Peak DS3 was also well before data mining drained all the mystery and community testing/discovery from the games - nowadays if you’re not posting frame data charts or DSanimstudio clips in your videos your content is behind the curve. All secrets are revealed on the day of product launch, and the playerbase is more likely to get info off of a wiki or spreadsheet than call up a friend and do some testing. Not to mention, while DS3 was the biggest mainstream hit of the series at the time, this was well before Fromsoft truly became a center stage AAA developer and household name. DS3 feels like the last time Fromsoft had a AA niche, that cult appeal with a smaller, more tight knit multiplayer community with distinct “scenes” and followings. And there were places for all these scenes to mix together, in the form of covenant hubs, where friendships and rivalries formed in 6-player brawls. I have long since given up trying to be a true DS3 boomer (Elden Ring is here and it’s important to see the positives and not just hyperfixate on complaining 24/7) but I left a piece of my heart in Lothric. And that’s where it’ll always be. How lucky are we to have experienced it in its prime!

  • @user-4e4918xcgv
    @user-4e4918xcgv 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    cool video

  • @jmnthem
    @jmnthem 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ahhh. Good to see this show up on my feed!

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Glad to hear it JM!

  • @Bilndmann
    @Bilndmann 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Holy shit so many plus frames

  • @alexberube5269
    @alexberube5269 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    An offhand that might compliment the spear really well is reinforced club, it has enough stun to combo with a warcry r2 with the bkga

  • @alexandrosstavrou4224
    @alexandrosstavrou4224 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    LKS really is such a sleeper pick

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Great way to put it. Always catches people off guard

  • @warfriendo9966
    @warfriendo9966 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    ahhh lothric knight longspear my beloved

  • @yagaland3794
    @yagaland3794 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    🤌

  • @hotwasabi69
    @hotwasabi69 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Man, you really cooked with this one. I read your other comment about standing apart from jm. And I gotta say, this gripped me in a unique way for sure

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you very much!! I was just thinking about coming back to Lothric for a revisit so this was nice thing to read this morning. :)

  • @superduper4820
    @superduper4820 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Well done video but whats the best build for this weapon ?

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Check out the description for details. In short, Dex is generally best but there are other considerations you may want to keep in mind. If you are at midlevel I’d recommend focusing on Dex and End, but at 90, meta, and above, you can experiment with quality or elemental infusions to good effect

    • @superduper4820
      @superduper4820 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Felicificity i went quality 40/40, found it better than pure dex but maybe i didnt went all out on dex last time

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@superduper4820 Quality gives you better weapon variety (I recommend offhand Demon Fist, it cracks open shields very well) but damage-wise, Dex is definitely the highest physical AR. At meta you can comfortably hit 70-75 Dex with minimal sacrifice of stats, and your damage skyrockets between 60 and 80 Dex so it ends up being extremely strong. And that extra physical AR makes a big difference especially with the bonus damage from Leo Ring counter hits.

    • @superduper4820
      @superduper4820 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Felicificity undertood, will try it

  • @krowpan799
    @krowpan799 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    it’s good to be back

  • @minthecorrupt
    @minthecorrupt 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Checked out your vids after your comment on my recent vid. Awesome fights! Great spacing and loadout choice.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thanks Min!

  • @noahwysocki1233
    @noahwysocki1233 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I was actually just looking at the Lothric Longspear cause I realized I've never used it for a run of the game before and started running into problems immediately; r1s bounce off even small wooden shields even when you two-hand it, the r2s have an odd timing to them that is just slow enough for any enemy in the game to swing at you first, the poise buff /only/ matters on the l2, and range advantage isn't a real thing in PVE. Then I noticed the l2 combos into the r1, which doesn't combo into itself because of the way mob poise works, but /can/ combo into the r2, and /that/ can combo into another r1- only if the enemy does anything but block. This thing works best if you make heavy use of the full moveset, something I only do for fun on other weapons, and now I'm determined to make it work. Thank you very much for contributing to my pre-build research, this video rules. ^_^

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Glad you’re giving it a shot! It’s great fun

  • @astripeduser
    @astripeduser 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    had a character dedicated to only spears (& pikes,) the lothric knight longspear was definitely one of the ones i remember using most, and i can certainly agree; something about it was incredibly satisfying, and fun to use. didn't know it had this much sauce, though!! i greatly enjoy the uses, data/concepts & other weird interactions/niche things being beamed directly into my brain through this fantastic video, the detail is great! (it may be time for some more poking to occur after watching this................................)

  • @Dios__Del__Rayo__
    @Dios__Del__Rayo__ 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I laughed way more than I should have at this lol

  • @Walbort21
    @Walbort21 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    a video about axes in the souls series would be pretty cool they are seemingly always overshadowed by straightsword and even hammers despite in my opinion atleast being pretty nasty weapons man serpant hatchet for example is a monster in ds3

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      DS3 axes are certainly slept on! Butcher Knife is a personal fav along with Manserpent. The Butcher Knife R2 one handed combos into the R1, which means you can set up some nice combos off of a rollcatch. And the range is simply nasty

  • @Walbort21
    @Walbort21 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    earned yourself a sub Great vid!

  • @vultureman3311
    @vultureman3311 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I thought I knew everything about hitstun and hitboxes but that heavier stun on close range R1s is new to me. Great find !

  • @Val-oc4uz
    @Val-oc4uz 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "Ds3 has better pvp then elden ring guys" 10:13

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Man panics rolls out of hitstun over and over again and gets punished for it - bad PvP BG

    • @Walbort21
      @Walbort21 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      you cant rollcatch in elden ring?

    • @Val-oc4uz
      @Val-oc4uz 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I didn't say bad pvp, just a lot more bs in this game

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Truly a bizarre take imo but to each their own.

  • @ArucardIII
    @ArucardIII 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Beautifully edited, my good sir. Well done!

  • @heyitstig6559
    @heyitstig6559 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It's got the R1; it's got the R2; it's got the quick-HA L2; it's got (ok-ish) rolling R1; it's got the L2-R2-R1 combo; and most importantly, it's got the best fashion. Phenomenal video, friend! I never knew about the diminishing poise boost you get with the chunkier sets; and kind of appropriate I think, since this weapon is all about the FASHION. There is a way to get out of the L2-R2-R1 combo, and that is with quickstep. I had the utter displeasure of finding this out when Redlight did it on me: the mad lad hard swapped to murky (of course it's murky) in the middle of the combo, and quickstepped out. He learned it from Grim (because of course it'd be Grim). I haven't had a chance to test, but I gather that if you suspect that your opponent wants to qs out, you're better off doing L2-R2-R2 and hopefully get them as their qs s end.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Great info, and thanks!! Glad you enjoyed it Tig!

  • @Magikarp5600
    @Magikarp5600 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    lord forgive me im playing the old game again

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      May you be blessed with good fights, mon frère

  • @RedRoninZ
    @RedRoninZ 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thank you for an amazing Video. I was impressed because durning this fight I thought it may have been latency or something why I couldn't parry or get out of stuff I thought I should have been able to get out of. Thank you for teaching me something new about a old game that I love. I am 100 percent trying this out now.

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thanks Ronin! Glad you liked it

  • @spimpland1142
    @spimpland1142 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What is the best level for invasions these days?

    • @Felicificity
      @Felicificity 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Whatever you find the most fun. I mostly do mid level between 60-90, occasionally dipping into 36 and 125